Woman's Hour - Maternity services inquiry, Women in architecture, Witches

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

The government has announced an independent inquiry into repeated failings in maternity services at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. Earlier this year, a BBC investigation revealed that the deaths of at least 56 babies and two mothers over the past five years at the Trust could perhaps have been avoided. BBC correspondent Divya Talwar joins Nuala McGovern, alongside Lauren Caulfield and Amarjit Kaur Matharoo, who both tragically lost their babies while receiving care at Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust. This month, the Ironman World Championships were held in Kona, Hawaii, where Britain’s Kat Matthews won silver. The men’s and women’s championships, previously held simultaneously, were split into separate events in 2023. However, they are set to reunite next year. Questions have been raised about the impact this change may have on female competitors. To discuss the championships and celebrate Kat’s achievement, Nuala is joined by Kat Matthews and Jordan Blanco, a contributor to Triathlete magazine who attended the event. A new report reveals that progress towards gender equity in the architecture profession still remains too slow. Inequalities remain deeply rooted — with pay disparities, toxic and exclusionary workplace cultures, and half of female respondents surveyed said they had been bullied, and a third had experienced sexual harassment at work. Nuala hears from Valerie Vaughan-Dick, Chief Executive of Royal Institute of British Architects, and Helen Lee who was the project architect on a social housing development in London for the elderly which has just won this year’s Stirling Prize for Architecture. The Essex witch trials represent one of the darkest chapters in British history. A new Sky History series, Witches of Essex, revisits the real lives of women accused of witchcraft in the 16th and 17th centuries, drawing on newly examined court records and the latest historical research. Historian Dr Eleanor Janega joins Nuala to discuss.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women

sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds,

but now back to today's women's. are. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, you will have seen and heard details from the posthumous memoir of Virginia Dufre, Nob-D's Girl, over the morning. I do want to let you know that we will have the co-author Amy Wallace on the program on Thursday, so do make sure you tune in for that. And so to today, as you were just hearing in the news bulletin, an independent inquiry into repeated failures at maturity units under Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, known as LTH, has been announced by the Health Secretary Wes Streeting. We're going to hear from

mothers who were affected. Also on the programme, women only make up 31% of the UK's registered architects. But at an undergraduate level, it's pretty much 50-50 when it comes to men and women. So what's going on? We're going to look at a new report detailing how gender

inequality remains deeply embedded in architecture's culture. We have the chief executive of the Royal Institute of British Architects Reba, who will tell us about their one-year action plan to turn things around. Also, we have the female architect who won this year's sterling prize for architecture. And on structures, did you catch the actor Tilda Swinton with Anita on Friday? It is a great interview and Tilda spoke about something that might resonate

with you. She says there is a place. It could be a flat or a room in a house, your student accommodation, somewhere where you entered feeling very formless and vague about your future, but full of passion and dreams and you found your working practice during the time that you lived there that had ignited your creativity. For me, number four via Aude Nam in Milan due to the advice from a good friend

I lived with there, I came out with a plan to try my hand at broadcasting. So what about you? Where was it? What plan was hatched? You can text the programme, the number's 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's are

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 0-3-700-100-144-4 describe a little bit of it for me as well I'd love to hear it we have also new evidence about the witches of Essex we're going to learn about the women

persecuted in the 16th and 17th century that is all coming up but let me begin with that story I mentioned from the news this morning the government has announced an independent inquiry into repeated failings in maternity services at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. Earlier this year, a BBC investigation revealed that the deaths of at least 56 babies

and two mothers at Leeds teaching hospitals over the past five years could perhaps have been avoided. The Health Secretary, that's Wes Streeting, said the investigation is needed in order to understand what had gone so catastrophically wrong at the Trust's maternity units, which were downgraded to inadequate by their care Quality Commission in June. Divya Talwar has been across this story for BBC News. We're going to begin with her

and then we'll also speak to some of the mothers affected. Divya, welcome. So what have the families told you? Well, I first started speaking to families last summer. They raised concerns about the safety at Leeds

teaching hospitals, the maternity units. And I've been looking into maternity failings at the trust ever since. You mentioned back in January, we did investigation that revealed dozens of babies and mothers may have died and those deaths may have been prevented if they had received better care. Now, since then, we've been in contact with more than 70 families who've all described inadequate care with stories going back nearly 15 years. So clearly there were significant stories and pressure on Mr. Streeting to listen to

the families who subsequently contacted him with calls for this inquiry. And some may say, hang on, because there's concerns about another inquiry taking place. There's been Shrewsbury and Telford, the Nottingham inquiry ongoing. There's the Rapid National Review that we spoke about not so long ago on this programme, which leads as part of into maternity and neonatal services across England. That was launched in June, been led by Baroness Valerie Amos. Some might say, is another needed? Yeah, that's a long list there, isn't it?

And Mr. Streating has acknowledged that there are big challenges with, maternity care in England. With Leeds in particular, he said that he was reluctant, but Leeds was an exceptional case. He'd heard stories from families. He'd heard from whistleblowers. And given that Leeds is the largest, one of the largest teaching hospitals in Europe, and he'd been so shocked by the stories that he'd heard from bereaved families, he did say that there's an exceptional case here for this thorough, independent inquiry

to understand what has gone so catastrophically wrong. And coming from the Health and Social Care Secretary West Streeting, we do have the following that he said of the bereaved families. These are people who, at a moment of great vulnerability, place their lives and the lives of their unborn children into the hands of others. And instead of being supported and cared for, found themselves victims. This can't go on.

It's time to deliver lasting change and make sure all families are confident. The maternity care they receive is safe and of the highest quality. But there are questions. for example, over the current head of the CQC, which is the Care Quality Commission, that he ran the Leeds Teaching Hospitals, NHS Trust, so what we're talking about this morning,

for 10 years until 2023, and questions over what he knew about the poor maternity care. What do we know? Yeah, that's right. As you mentioned, Sir Julian Hartley was in post as chief executive of Leeds for 10 years. He moved down in 2023, and since December 2024,

has been leading the healthcare regulator for England, the CQC. So there are serious questions about what he knew about poor maternity care while he was imposed. And if he knew about it, what, if anything, did he do? In a statement, Sir Julian told the BBC that while he was chief executive of Leeds Trust, he was absolutely committed to ensuring good patient care. But clearly, this commitment wasn't good enough to prevent some families suffering pain and loss. He said he was truly sorry for this. I do want to read a little more going back to the Department of Health from West Streeting as well.

He's talked about the stark contradiction between the scale and safety standards is precisely why he's taking this exceptional step to order an urgent inquiry into Leeds. We have to have to give the families the honesty and accountability they deserve and end the normalisation of deaths of women and babies in maternity units. I mean, it's very stark language that he puts across in that. statement. What is the trust said in response to today's news, Diviour? Well, the Leeds Trust said it apologised to bereaved families that it was taking significant steps to improve care in order to reassure parents and families who are accessing maternity services at the moment. And it said

that it was committed to working with the inquiry team. Now, obviously, a lot of those details haven't been drawn up yet, like who will lead it, what are the terms of reference? But families have told us that they want it to be the senior midwife, Donna Okudan, to lead this inquiry. she's previously carried out the inquiry into failings at Shrewsbury and Telford and she's currently leading the review into Nottingham the Failings there which is currently looking at more than 2,000 cases of mothers and babies being harmed or injured at the trust so the families say she is who they trust and she would be the best person for this job Divya stay with us I do want to bring in two women who are part of those families that we're talking about

with Lauren Caulfield with us and Amarjit Carr, Mataru, in studio. Thank you so much for coming to join us this morning. I do need to let our listeners know you very, both very sadly, lost your babies when you were being treated at Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust. Lauren, your daughter, Grace, was still born in March 2022. Amriti, your daughter, Assis, still born in January, 2024.

And I noticed how you react when you hear about these news of an independent inquiry. Perhaps I'll start with you, Lauren. Your feelings this morning? I feel quite relieved. You know, we've been fighting for a very, very long time. As mentioned, there's been families going back 15 years who have also been fighting for improvements

for change at least teaching hospitals. And it's quite vindicating to have somebody not only hear us and acknowledge our experiences and the failings, but also to take action and to take a lot of that responsibility from us up until this point, you know, us as families, us as grieving, bereaved families have been campaigning relentlessly, finding more than 150 families in Leeds and taken on that burden because the hospital gave us no choice. You know, the rhetoric that they've kind of shared to every family is it's just due, this happens to, this never happens, we've learning lessons, we're making improvements and that's all ultimately been a lie. so to have this independent inquiry now to know that we're going to get accountability

we're going to get answers and justice for ourselves and our families is incredible and Richard? Yeah I think we really welcomed it I think we were all caught off guard when we did get told it was going to happen really yeah we all expected to have another battle

and another fight with West Street indirectly just because we know these things aren't taken lightly so when we did get it there was a palpable kind of sense of relief of we're being listened to finally I think I was just shocked because had it not been for the Facebook group

that was set up that I would have actually just thought I was an isolated incident and actually when we met with other families going back to 2010 some of the lessons

that should have been learned and implemented could have actually have led to our children being here today. 2010 because you're both young women and I'm thinking you know

it's 15 years a generation really if you're comfortable Amarjit do you mind telling people briefly your experience. Definitely. So I was 32 weeks pregnant and I presented three times to the hospital in a week. So the first time walked in with abdominal pain.

Second time, less than 24 hours later, was wheelchared in with the pain. And I kept getting told, oh, you might have a eur infection and it's ligament pain. And the pain was outside of the womb area. So it was within me. And then on the third presentation, I was blue lighted via paris. medics because my body started to shut down, at which point we found out that actually our daughter had passed away that day and there was something very wrong with me and it subsequently turned out when they did a full operation on me, a laparotomy, that there was a

litre and a half blood clot where I'd complained of pain that entire week. So I ended up losing three litres of blood, having six blood transfusions, four platelets and a plasma and then put into an induced coma for 24 hours just because of everything. my body had gone through. And that's, and I honestly believe that had they done the right checks followed abdominal guidance, which they themselves have said they didn't do, a cease would be with me and I wouldn't necessarily have had the surgeries I've had. So the last 19, 20 months of my life have been to rehabilitate myself, learn how to walk

again, learn how to move, all of which I truly believe could have been avoided had they actually listened and done what they were supposed to do when someone presents more than twice in 24 hours. I'm so sorry for your loss on what you've gone through. Lauren? Yeah, so I had mixed care with Leeds and another local trust and there were serious, serious errors in terms of communication between the two. There was errors when I'd been complaining about reduced movement and that not being escalated for scans and for further investigations

and also in terms of plotting her growth properly, which all subsequently is what caused her to die. I didn't find out she passed away until I was already in labour at 37 weeks. weeks in the hospital. During that time, I wasn't even given adequate pain relief. And then after she was born, we decided to have a post-morton to try and understand how this had happened. And the hospital ended up losing my placenta, which was absolutely ridiculous. I also never received any kind of postnatal care, again, areas in communication. And this all just, you know, started this journey of understanding something's gone wrong and it keeps going wrong. And many,

many times over the last three and a half years, things have been going wrong, not just myself, but for so many other families. And it's not good enough. It's not okay when a single baby dies or a mother, but to have 56 babies in five years is ridiculous. And I'm also so sorry for your loss and what you went through. But I do think it's important for people to hear the stories because they're not in any way identical, but it reveals what these young women are going through, Divya? Yeah, that's right. Just listening to their stories, as you mentioned, they're not identical, but what is very similar are the constant themes that I've heard from every single family I've spoken to over the last year and a half, themes like women not being listened to,

saying that they're in pain or something's wrong with my baby or I can't feel the movements and then feeling that they were dismissed. The lack of compassion in care that women and families say that they've received. And a big one is feeling like they were an isolated case. We've heard that from Lauren and Amargett. And just to add in Amarjit's case, the trust actually led an internal review following what happened to Assis. And it found that there were issues in her care, which may have prevented the outcome. So clearly there was learning there. However, there has been learning over the years and repeated failures.

And that's exactly what Mr. Streating has said. There have been repeated failures. And that's why there's such an acceptable case here. Are you hopeful, Lauren, with what you hear? You talk to me about a certain sense of relief, but... Somewhat, you know, I think a lot of this now depends on who is appointed as the chair, as Divi obviously mentioned. And is that Donna Ockerton? You're looking for it. Anyone others in Donna will not be sufficient.

You know, she has the independence, the experience and expertise, and she is trusted. We know that she works thoroughly. We've seen a real-time change she's implemented in Nottingham. And we've seen that she provides that justice to families and holds us. the trust and the leadership teams to account, and there's nobody else, as far as I'm aware, that has that track record. Yeah, I completely agree. I think with Donna's methodology that she brings, there's a bit of a looking back retrospectively

at what has happened to lead to failings, but real-time change. So part of her work is having accountability, having transparency and that real-time change because actually no other person should experience what we've experienced. And actually, it's not good enough for the hospitals now to do their own homework. do need someone to come in to be independent and Donna's the best person for it. We also don't want Leeds to be used as a guinea pig for someone new to come in

when you know you've got somebody who's trusted within the bereaved community and harmed community that's essential to ensure that conversation. Her other methodology includes staff engagement so she has a staff consortium in Nottingham

and actually what we'd want to do something similar in Leeds because we're grateful for the whistleblowers within the staff that are there but we need to make it a psychologically safe space for staff to come forward and call out bad practice. I want to thank all three of you for coming in. Amarjit Kaur, Mataru, we were just hearing speak, Lauren Cofield and also Divya Talwar, my colleague.

Thank you very much. Thank you. And I do also want to let you know you were hearing, Divya mentioning earlier. We have had a response from Brendan Brown, who's chief executive of the LTH NHS Trust, who apologised to brief families and said he hoped the inquiry

would provide them with answers and went on to say determined to do better we want to work with the families who have used our services to understand the experiences so we can make real and lasting improvements he said I'd also like to address

and reassure families and leads who will be using our services currently that we're already taking significant steps to address improvements to our maternity and neonatal services following reviews by the Care Quality Commission and NHS England. 84844, if you would like to get in touch.

But I want to turn to the Iron Man for a moment. Are you familiar with it? Well, Britain's Cat Matthews won silver in this month's Iron Man World Championships. It's held in Kona in Hawaii. It is, if you're not familiar, a grueling triathlon. Contestants compete in a 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike ride, then followed by a 26.2 mile run. And yes, that's all on the same day.

So the men and women's championships used to take place together, same course, but an earlier start time for the pro men over the pro women. But then in 2023, they split into separate sex competitions in different places to ease entry backlogs caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. So, for example, this month the races took place in different months and on different continents. It was niece for the men, Kona for the women. But that will be the last time it happens in that way.

Next year, it's back to women and men back on the same course. some women are not happy about going back to the original configuration. Let's talk about it with Cat Matthews and Jordan Blanco, who is watching the Iron Man World Championship and writes for the online magazine triathlete. But let us start with the success of Kat. Welcome, congratulations on your silver medal. How does it feel?

Hi, thank you so much. My thoughts are with women we've just heard from, really, rather than my success at the weekend. But yeah, I'm really quite proud of my performance. Thank you. Not at all. And we do move, of course, on Women's Hour from topic to topic, you know,

shining a light and then also celebrating the successes. So I appreciate your comments for Lauren and Amargeet there, Kat. But getting back to Iron Man, this is the third time winning silver, which is an amazing achievement. But then I was wondering, because obviously you're a competitive woman. Is that at all frustrating?

Yes. I'm honest, it's quite gutting, which sounds so conflicting when you do have such, you know, on-paper success. But, yeah, three years of coming second and twice coming second in the middle distance, the half-iron man as well. So I'm still very motivated to take the top step. Because it's such a long race, right? We're talking about eight hours plus. And it's only 35 seconds that divided you and the gold winner.

That was the bit that I thought, that might great. Yes, I think it's the closest, or the third closest in history or something, so it really doesn't happen over the Iron Man distance, especially in all of the World Championships in Kona, which is renowned for being an absolutely sort of horrendous climate in terms of heat and humidity. So to be that close, I think I was maybe eight minutes behind at one point, so I really pushed to my limits at the end of the run.

But I think you are that sort of woman, because I was reading your history, you were seriously injured in 2022. Do you mind telling us a little bit of what happened there? Yes. I was cycling in Texas, training for this World Championships in Kona. And it was maybe two weeks before the race. It was one of my last training sessions.

And a driver of a simple car just didn't see me and took me out, sort of jackknife me as such. So I lost consciousness, broke my skull, too wrist. ribs to vertebrae, my thoracic spine, my hip, and some sort of soft tissue with the brain was pretty damaged as well. But luckily, I was able to sort of utilise my physio background from the British army. And I think sort of employ that a little bit in terms of my recovery. So I was challenged mentally and physically by that, but I feel pretty recovered now three years later. I'm thinking you are like the comeback woman, right? Like also just talking about.

about that race that you were so much further behind and then made up all that time. And then with that terrible accident coming second in the Iron Man World Championships last year, so we celebrate very much your success. What are your thoughts about going back on the same course with men? So personally, I know the sport has quite mixed opinions on this. I'm actually really excited for it. I think it makes total sense in terms of the whole picture presented, having a limited amount of competitors able to compete on the island

because of the very niche culture that they have there and the small, very small sort of set-ups of the local villages and the community and the protection of the natural elements in terms of reefs. I think that it will be really, really vital that the broadcasting team that Iron Man are developing constantly do say, well, they do produce a fair and equal broadcast for the women and the men. Because obviously if we're starting five, ten minutes behind the men, we're constantly behind them all day.

But at the same time, we are in our own way having a really sort of powerful race. But I've never seen a conflict of interest having us on the same day. Well, let me bring in Jordan here. Jordan, good to have you with us as well. Your thoughts, you're staying up very late for us as middle of the night in California. Thank you very much for that. I mentioned you right about the sport, but you've also competed more than 100 triathlons,

including 16 Iron Man's. And we will talk about what is the appeal in a few minutes' time. But what's the difference do you think? A women's only or both on the same course? Yeah, I think when you get a women's only, and what was beautiful about the event just last week, was women get to take Sen a stage. as you mentioned, as Kat mentioned, women are usually starting five, ten minutes behind the men

and then the narrative of their race is unfolding right behind the men. And sometimes when the coverage is taking place and covering the men, maybe they're doing the celebration because men are finishing first and some of the stories and nuances of the women's race get lost because you're sharing the spotlight with the men's race on the same stage, Whereas this past week in Kona, like the women's story, the women's race was the story. They had full visibility. They, every nuance, every, like, different tactic that was being employed by the various competitors were being shown and shed on the broadcast coverage.

And do you think that's going to change when men and women are back on the same course? Yeah. in terms of the number of cameras that are potentially allowed on course, the ability to tell both stories at the same time, yeah, something's going to get lost. It's impossible to kind of fully cover both races as well when two races are taking place, and it's just a math game, right? What about that, Kat? I think that, yes, there will be a dilution of somewhat,

But I feel like the shared experience that the men and the women, both across the professional fields and the amateur, the age group, as we call them, fields, I think that shared experience and mutual respect, two races happening alongside each other, not necessarily one in front of the other. I feel like that's got more benefit than splitting us over completely different continents in completely different months of the year, which is what's happened this year. This year. And coming back to that, Jordan. I mean, is there a way to take some of the lessons of what has been achieved when it's a woman-only race, as it has been for the past couple of years, and apply it to next year's race, for example, that will be in Hawaii? I mean, some of the stories I was reading is women feel the atmosphere is different when men are around, that they're kind of crowded out at times, particularly the faster women with the slower men, for example, that there's kind of a bunch up there, men perhaps, not being delighted. being surrounded by women with some anecdotes. Any thoughts, Jordan?

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a numbers difference, right? We only had about 1,600 women racing in Kona last week, whereas the field could almost double. So there's just more people are going to be swimming, sharing the space on the road and on the run course, or sharing the resources from aid stations. So, yeah, I think the lessons will be to let, know to be cautious when you're swimming around women, when you're riding past them.

Remember that you're doing this, especially on the amateur side, it is for fun. It is a hobby and to be respectful. Some of the women I spoke to while I was out there reporting for triathlet where the atmosphere is different. Women are supporting women. They're passing by, but congratulating one another, like saying well done and you go-go. versus just passing it. If it might be a man, it could be just head down, riding quite fast, close to them. And so I guess it's giving space and also respect, but also cheerleading one another and being supportive.

Did you find it a different race, Kat? I'm totally in agreement. I think I really believe that, yeah, the atmosphere having women only both this year and two years ago was different. It was really palpable in the lead up where, like Jordan was saying, on the course, you're practicing, a training, but just being in the environment in the town, everyone was so smiley and so, so supportive. I want to believe that that environment, that atmosphere from the women will carry forward into next year where we sort of learn that that's what we all love, you know, women supporting women, and we can bring that into a mixed cohort. I don't feel like that we have to lose that. And yes, absolutely, in terms of aid station, that's a really good point.

I hadn't really considered it. I was so enthusiastic after that. the race to the Ironman team saying we had cold water cold and is that because usually it's the men get there first and they drink all the cold water or take the ice or whatever it might be not necessarily at the professional end but I can see how later on in the field not having cold water or not having access to ice when it's high 30 degrees it's sort of a bit it's a bit dangerous so that has happened before where some of the aid stations have run out of things like ice. And I think that's a really valid point. And I suppose as the

women race, it's a little bit later, gets hotter as the day goes on. You are in Hawaii after all. But why do you do it, Kat? I mean, it's a great question. I actually got into triathlon quite late as an

24, 25 year old. I sort of took it up as I wasn't that good at running, but I was quite good. And I thought it would be a really good way to bring in a bit of sort of of just general mix and match of sports. And slowly I started increasing the distances of triathlons that I was doing, but there was no way I would even consider doing an Iron Man.

But actually, it took me just watching one race. And I suddenly was like, whoa, I feel like this could be a real challenge. And there's something about the mental sort of strategies and planning and fortitude that you need to have alongside your physical ability. So you get to practice your training every day but you really get to employ this sort of, yeah, that mental, I don't know, resilience.

Yeah, that you've obviously got in bucket loads. Well, I'm looking forward to welcoming you back when you've won the gold. I did see the average age for an Iron Man competitor, not the elite level, but it's in their 40s, 30s of those that are winning, but really interesting, I think. And thank you both so much

for joining us, lots of food for thought there. I want to thank Kat Matthews and Jordan Blanco and congratulate Kat on her fabulous win. Now, we hope you've been enjoying The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, our conversation so far. I wanted to let you know that episode four is out now, only on BBC Sounds.

It's all about how to make ageing your superpower. Here is a clip from it. It features a 62-year-old personal trainer and author Jacqueline Huton. It sometimes feels quite challenging to show up as a 62-year-old. old woman who, you know, I think I clearly look 62 and aware that obviously there's lots of filters and lots of younger people. But I actually feel there's quite a responsibility to that

as well because when we see it, we can be it. We need to have role models as women, women who are thriving at different ages. And I love it when I discover women who are 10, 20 years older than me. And they're doing really well and they're enjoying their career or they're travelling or whatever it happens to be. That is the woman's era guide to life. You want to to the whole episode or some of our other conversations, just go to BBC Sound, search for Women's Hour, and in that feed, if you scroll down, you will find the Guide to Life episodes.

I'd also love to hear from you for our next episode on the subject of long-term relationships and how to keep the spark alive as we juggle our busy lives. Maybe that's something you're thinking about, struggling with, what are the biggest challenges, and also, if there's a topic you'd like our relationship experts to tackle for you.

Love to hear from you. do get in touch all the usual ways. 84844, for example, texting. Now, over 20 years on from the Royal Institute of the British Architects that the Reba is commissioned report, why do women leave architecture? There is a new independent report out today

by the Fawcett Society and it reveals that progress towards gender equity in the profession still remains way too slow. So the inequalities remain deeply rooted. It says pay dispens, toxic and exclusionary workplace cultures and half of the female respondents surveyed said they've been bullied. A third had experienced

sexual harassment at work, so not great figures. I'm joined by Valerie Vaughn Dick, Chief Executive of the Royal Institute of British Architects. Good morning. Good morning. And also Helen Lee, who is the project architect on the social housing development in London for the elderly, which is just won this year's sterling prize for architecture. Congratulations. Good morning. Thank you very much. And her job is Associate Director of Witherford, Watson and man architects.

Great to have both of you with us. There's a lovely write-up about Helen's project on the BBC online as well, if you want to see pictures of her building. But let me start with you, Valerie. Were you disappointed by the findings? Yes, I was. I would have thought that after nearly 20 years, there would have been changes.

However, in one sense, though I was disappointed, I wasn't surprised because women had still being saying and reporting to Rieba that things hadn't changed, that there was still gender inequity, was deep rooted in architecture. So I wasn't surprised. But, you know, I mentioned some of the figures there. Just a third, over a third of architects are women, despite the 50-50 when it comes to the undergraduate level

or students with men and women. It appears that women are leaving the profession. Is that how you understand it, Valerie? I think it's difficult to say just because 50-50 is a student intake and then when we look at the numbers that go on to still remain in practice they're just leaving because of these reasons. But I think there is something endemic within the culture in architecture practices that is meaning women are leaving because of that.

Like what? Well, I think that a number have reported, as you've already said, there's issues about bullying, but a number of them have said yes, about the pay gap. That's really, really stark, that they're quite clearly being paid less than men who are doing equivalent work. There's the issue which they talk about career progression where they feel that it's not just pay, but barriers to having good experiences and good quality work, as well as what's called the motherhood penalty. And that's really stark in the report. Some of the figures, I'll just throw them out from the report,

64% of women were expected to take on more administrative or support tasks. 58% felt they had to adopt masculine traits to succeed. 57% perceived as less confident than male colleagues. And 43% said their family life was scrutinized more than men's. Helen, what did you make of this? I mean, the report is really shocking, but I would say I agree that it's in some ways it's not surprising. I've been in the industry of 12, 13 years,

and some of these issues are definitely familiar. Although I had been quite lucky in my career that I haven't experienced much of this directly, I felt very supported by the practices that I've worked at, particularly where I am now with the Fidwotsam Man. When I had my older son, when I came back to work, I was able to do flexible hours and working from home, but I know that that's not kind of available everywhere. And I think it's really disappointing.

I would hope that this is changing but it sounds like nothing's changed yet in the 20 years because you have put together and I'll throw it out to a few male architects as well 84844 that a one year like after 20 years a one year action plan

to try and turn things around what's top of the list? I think top of the list is looking at HR policies a lot of architect practices are small and so some instances and it's in that report is that there are no HR policies when women are facing menopause or they leave to go on parent

break. So that is really important. Secondly, to make sure that we are looking at areas such as developing CPD, continuous professional development. So when somebody does return to work from maternity, that they have that support. And I think there's also the whole thing about monitoring and making sure that when you're looking at having high-level speakers or people doing high-level projects, that it's not always the same people with the same faces, with the same gender that are selected. So we will be looking at that. Well, I'm curious just Helen, and I know you've felt supported, which is wonderful, but is there something inherently, like some of the masculine traits that was mentioned in

the report, about architecture, talks about the culture and the structure. Is it macho? it definitely can be but I think there's almost two sides to it there's kind of this very commercial side of architecture which can be more macho and I'd say like

construction is 99% men so the people you're dealing with even as an architect yeah yeah definitely and I know that kind of there's been this culture of kind of deals made down the pub and things like this but I'd say really

yeah so kind of deals that are taking place or networking, whatever we want to call it, not within the office structure. Yeah, yeah. But then there is another side of it, and I think that is the side that I work in, which is much more inclusive, I'm pleased to say. Do you work with a lot of women?

Yeah, yeah, our practice is pretty much 50-50, yeah. Can we hear about your win? Tell us. And congratulations. Thank you. Well, we're thrilled. I mean, yeah. Can you describe it for people who haven't read about it, yeah? Project, yeah, of course.

So it's a social housing project for older people. And in designing the project, we were hoping to create a community rather than just housing. And we worked with the United States Saviars, which are our client. They're a charity in Southwark who will run the housing project in forever. And they run a number of different arms houses. And they were looking for to create some housing for older people that is more suited to the 21st century. So we're looking at trying to tackle the issues of isolation and loneliness that are quite prevalent in society. at an order age.

So this arm's house is trying to create community within. How do you do that? Well, that was the challenge. But you won the prize so you know. Well, it's quite a simple plan really. And it's traditional materials, good quality materials, space and daylight, all the kind of traditional principles of good design, but also trying to put in lots of different spaces for interaction.

There's a big garden room and a cookery school to kind of bring people in from out outside so that the community can come in. They have baby groups. They have cookery classes. There's so much life in this building. And then there's quieter spaces, big walkways where people can kind of just sit and have a chat and have a good tea. And I'd be curious from an architect's point of view, if you build it, do they come? Yeah. You know what I mean? Do people use those spaces if they are there? Well, yeah. I mean, the reaction from the residence has been incredible and it's probably gone above and beyond. So tell me a little bit of what that's like.

It's been amazing. I mean, this award particularly just matters so much. It's made such a difference. We hope that it will kind of get the message out to people that make decisions about social housing that actually if you can have a bit more ambition and aspiration around social housing and OK, you might need a bit more finance. Appleby cost about 25% more than standard social housing. But look at the difference it makes to these.

people's lives. I mean, you talk to these residents and they've got some incredibly moving stories. I mean, I've often been in tears there when I've spoken to people. Give me an idea. One resident, for example, she said to me that she'd been going to the Maudley every week, which is a mental health hospital and because of issues where

she was living previously and she's moved into Appleby and she's felt supported and she doesn't go at all anymore and it's just changed her life and it's just how kind of housing can uplift people. It can take the pressures off of healthcare because actually it has such an impact on people. And what an inspiration you are to be in that role as well

when we talk about so few women that have been lauded, for example, as Aja Hadid, of course, we were very familiar with in London, the Aquatic Centre, for example, for the Olympic Park, one of her wonderful creations, Julia Barfield, the London Eye, the Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery was Denise Scott Brown. There are some of the names. But we need more names, right, that are out there as well.

And I'm curious, coming back to you, Valerie. The report does make recommendations for employers, government, and for Riba, 47 in total. But one of the recommendations for Riba to refuse to charter any practices which do not meet a base level of standards, including HR policies on maternity or carers leave, harassment or bullying. When can those changes? When can we expect those changes? to be made? There are 20 recommendations for Riba. 10 of them we're starting to implement right now. So that's what's in the one-year action plan. So we will do that by next year. The other 10, we're looking at the implications, costs, and making sure that we discuss a number of those with key

stakeholders. But I think that that will be, you know, very, very soon that we will be looking to make sure that we implement all of those. I mean, you feel very hopeful, but why is it that it hasn't been done? 20 years, it's a long time. I think this is not about architecture in isolation. This is a societal issue. So I think we recognise that, that women in different parts of our society will be facing this. But I think this report lays bare the scale of architecture's gender,

inequity crisis. And we're saying we cannot undertake or look away from this any longer. We're going to be working with stakeholders to make sure that there is change. And for us, equity isn't about fairness. It's vital to the future, creativity and sustainability of architecture. And I think everybody should want to come on board to work with us to make sure we do that change. Helen, back to you. If there was a young girl who wanted to get into architecture now, what would your advice to her be?

I would say, please do it. We need more women. We need diversity in who's designing these buildings, because after all, buildings are used by everybody. but also it can be a great job it can be really fun drawing model making kind of bringing out their inner kid you also meet incredible people

actually seeing something you've worked on on paper getting built coming out of the ground is so exciting and when it's built and people are using it and enjoying it it's just a wonderful feeling

when I was a teenager in school and we had careers advice so I suppose I was about 16 17 and I did you know aptitude tests and they're like okay spatial relations 100% that's great And I was like, that's great. It says, you know what you could be?

You could be an architect's assistant. So hopefully things have changed. One comment that I will read just as you go out the door. One of the biggest problems is the long hours culture. You can't get anywhere unless you work full-time, plus many extra free hours, both on projects, on networking or winning work, combined with the fact that architects pay is relatively low

compared to other professions. So female architects cannot afford decent wraparound childcare, which means women, often the primary caregivers, just cannot keep up so take on the lesser roles within the office or instead they leave so that is one insight.

Thanks very much, 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. We shall have to follow up in one year's time. Valerie Vaughn Dick, chief executive of Rieba, the Royal Institute of British Architects and Helen Lee,

who is the project architect on the social housing development in London, which is just won this year's Sterling Prize for architecture. Thank you both so much. Thank you.

Thank you. Now, I want to turn to the story of the Essex Witch Trials. Considered by some one of the darkest chapters in British history, a new Sky History series, Witches of Essex, revisits the real lives of the women accused of witchcraft in the 16th and 17th centuries, drawing on newly examined court records

and the latest historical research we have with us, the historian, Dr. Eleanor Janaga, who is the contributor to a new series and loved your contributions, and joins us to explore what these trials can tell us about fear, power and gender in early modern England and also what the legacy of those witch hunts may be today. Great to have you with us. So Essex, the focus of the series, some people might be surprised by that, but probably not you. That's right. It's one of these

things where I think that when we tend to say witch trials in England, everyone thinks Pendle right away. And absolutely no shade. Pendle is a very, very important centre for witch persecutions. But Essex is actually where we have the first recorded execution. for witch hunts in the early modern period. So in many ways, this is kind of the spark that ignites the entire witch panics here. And what do you think we're learning now that we didn't know previously? One of the things that I think we are doing a really great job of understanding at this point in time is these social things that need to happen in order for a witch panic to take off. A witch panic? Yeah. That's a good term. So that's the thing is that

you can believe in witches, right, that they might exist for one reason or another. And that's one thing. It's another thing entirely to go around accusing women of being witches and go out of your way to execute them. So it really is a social contagion. It's something that makes people act in a way that they hadn't done before. And that's what's really crucial about understanding the witch panics is this is very much a feature of early modern society. You're not going to get things like this in the medieval period. This is a specific modern problem. This is the Tudor period of what we're talking about, particularly under Elizabeth I was fascinated by certain things that gave rise to the witch panic that you look at. For example, the equivalent of a gossip rag at the time, but gossip can get you killed. Absolutely. So gossip is a real problem in the early modern world because the way people comport themselves and the way that you make contacts with each other is through your reputation. And so if people take against you, they can just completely decide that you, are outside of the normal protections of society. And we have these chat books, which are essentially

gossip rags at the time. And they do a couple of things. One, they spread this contingent, this idea that women might be doing terrible magic and harming their neighbors. But also there is this thing in it for the people who are publishing it. Because this is a way for the men that are running these witch trials to make a name for themselves. So say, you're posted out in Essex and you want a plum job in London, a way to get a name for yourself, is by publishing a chat book, saying, look at all these witches I've found, and then suddenly you're no longer in the provinces, you can be in the heart of everything. So interesting, because it talks about within the series, you know, fingerprints of the state,

for example, or even state-sponsored violence against women. Oh, absolutely. And that is one of the things that is really key to this. You know, especially with the first witch trials that we see and that the program has a look at, This is the first time this state really decides to get involved with matters like this. Earlier on, people tended to think that witchcraft isn't real. It's more of a delusion that people might have. And at this point in time, it becomes a way of asserting state dominance over what ordinary people are doing. And so when you have people who are acting in the name of the queen, you know, in the name of a woman who is running the country, it's kind of a way of saying, well, this is what acceptable femininity is and this is what unacceptable femininity is.

It's such a dichotomy I hadn't thought about before because a lot of the women that are featured that they talk about that have been in these trials are oppressed women, potentially suffering from postnatal depression, for example, or a mental illness, but ostracized in some way, or maybe an older woman who hasn't got a partner and she would be considered potentially a witch,

but that you have Queen Elizabeth the first at the other end of the spectrum. Well, exactly, and this is one of the things that these accusations do. It says this is the correct way to be a woman. Yes, Elizabeth I first is a woman who's running the country. But, you know, she's doing all the correct nodding to particular things. You know, she's saying, oh, I'm a good Christian. This is how one becomes a good Christian. And at the other end of the spectrum, there are these women who are behaving in ways that people don't like. They're annoying. They beg for money. They are not

necessarily keeping the peace in their local town. They're beefing with each other. All of these sorts of things. So it's really saying that you have to comport yourself in a particular way as a woman in order to engage with society. But let's talk about sex as well, because we kind of have the Virgin Queen on one way. You enlighten me to something when I was watching about the image of a witch flying on a broomstick and what that's all about. Yeah, the broomstick is a, it's a kind of double entendre and it's a phallic syndrome. So, you know, it's not something that we would twig now. But in the early modern period, everyone goes, ha ha, I understand what that is. She's kind of getting it on with Satan. Exactly. And this is one of the big beliefs about

witchcraft at the time is that the way that you become a witch is by attending orgies with Satan. And it sounds incredibly laughable now, but this is a really, really serious idea that they have at the time. So it's kind of like a sexual contogen is what makes you a witch. So by the time that you are willing to have sex with Satan, who knows who else you might be having sex with. So this is a way of controlling women's sexual behavior, whether this is queer women who are having sex with each other, women who are having sex outside of the bounds of marriage, or people who, for example, are having sex for commercial reasons. And the promiscuity, of course, coming into cunning women, as they were also called. What is it that you would love to know that hasn't been

discovered yet? You know, one of the things that I don't think there's never going to be a possibility of discovering this. And I guess this is our job as historians. This is why we make programs like this. This is why we do the research. But I am quite interested in when women admit to witchcraft. Oh, yeah. That was so interesting. Why would you admit? Yeah. And I mean, I think that one of the things that we look at with some of these accusations and the people who admit it, probably a lot of it is I want to save my daughter, who has also been accused. And someone has to go down for this. They're not going to take no for an answer. So I'm going to throw myself on that particularized grenade. I think that others, it's just a result of torture.

You know, if you were kept awake for two days straight and walking the entire time when you only have one leg, you might to admit to all sorts of things. But we certainly see in particularized trials people who just really do become convinced that they are witches, you know, for example, in the Pendle trials, someone curses someone because he doesn't give her pins. And then she says, oh, I hope that you, the devil takes you and he falls down. And then she goes, oh, my God. Yeah, my power. I am a witch. But it's difficult to get ourselves in that same headspace. But I think it's really important to recognize that different parts of time people have beliefs for particular reasons. And we kind of have to respect it. I don't like it, obviously. But, you know, we have to understand that, you know, the past is a foreign country, as historians love to say. The past is a foreign country, but you have said before that history can act like a mirror for the present. Oh, absolutely. And I think that this is why this program is so important, because one of the things that you see with witch panics is we have something that is essentially built out of whole cloth that begins to oppress women.

You don't see oppression like this or accusations of witchcraft like this over the medieval period. It's an intensely modern thing. And it coincides with a rolling back of women's ability to participate in publicly. life. You have big figureheads like Elizabeth I, so incredibly powerful women can continue to participate in society, but poor women or annoying women or women who just kind of rub people the wrong way are increasingly violently patrolled. And this is something that I think is incredibly important to look at now, because women's rights aren't something that just sort of happens. People tend to look at history as just a means of everything becoming better over time. And that's not how

these things worse. Sometimes things get intensely worse suddenly. And this is what's happening during the witch panics. And so you always have to stay vigilant. Absolutely. The Witches of Essex is available to watch in Sky History now. I want to thank my guest, Dr. Eleanor Yaniga, who is one of the fabulous contributors on it, and I learned a lot by watching. I want to let you know tomorrow, I will be speaking to the Ice Queen. Eve Muirhead considered a Titan of British sport. She became the first woman to captain a British team to Olympic Golden Curling. She is the chef de mission for Team GB at the

26 Winter Olympics in Milan and she'll talk about this being the first time the British team has reached a 47 percent female participation. Another on architecture, I've just recently left the profession after 25 years.

You have to encourage women to continue the promotion of family-friendly policies needs to happen and have more open and structured career paths in place and more visible support from male colleagues that are also in architecture and that's Kate Patterson who got in touch. Thank you so much for all your messages that came in today. I will be back with you again tomorrow

same time, same place. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4. History's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.

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