Woman's Hour - Maureen Lipman, Kate Ferdinand, Power Lister Rimla Akhtar, Women ambassadors

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

In her latest stage role Dame Maureen Lipman plays Rose in a one-woman memory play with its Jewish heroine sitting Shiva – mourning for the many dead, and moving through Jewish twentieth century history. On stage alone for two hours, her performance has already sparked two sell out runs in London and Manchester, and now she’s back in the West End for a month. Maureen joins Anita live in the Woman’s Hour studio.Blended families are created for all sorts of reasons. Because of break-ups or the death of a parent, through fostering or adoption. Kate Ferdinand married the former footballer Rio Ferdinand in 2019, four years after his first wife Rebecca and mother of their three children, had died. Now Kate has written How to Build a Family, the book she wished she'd had when she started out being a step mum.Woman’s Hour Power List Leader Rimla Akhtar joins Anita to talk about her ground-breaking work in the world of women’s sport. She was ranked by Forbes and The Independent as one of the most powerful women in international sports, and was awarded an OBE in 2021 for her contribution to diversity and equality in sport.What is it really like to be a female ambassador? A new Netflix show, The Diplomat, has got people talking about the role. It stars American actress, Keri Russell, as a new US ambassador to the UK, parachuted into the role in the midst of a crisis. It debuted at No 1 on Netflix’s weekly global Top 10 list. So, we wanted to know - is the life of a real diplomat as exciting? What do they get up to? We are joined by former ambassadors Jules Chappell and Laura Clarke to find out.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Kate Ferdinand, who's married to ex-footballer Rio Ferdinand, is on the programme today to talk about her new book, all about blended families and how she's made it work. She married Rio four years ago after the death of his first wife, Rebecca, and became step-mom to his three children. She'll be talking to me later about the lessons she's learnt and how they as a family have

made it work. But this morning, I'd like to hear from you. Are you part of a blended family? Are you a step-parent or a step-child? How did you make it work? How did you build the relationship? Was there a specific turning point? What techniques did you use to get there? I want to hear about the major breakthrough moment. And as a step-parent, how do you not take personally the comments you may get from your step-children? How do you avoid unnecessary hurt and pain to make the blended family work? Get in touch with me in the usual ways. The text number is 84844. You can email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. And if you'd like to contact us via social media, it's at BBC

Woman's Hour. Also joining me on the programme, icon Dame Maureen lipman is in the studio to talk to me about her very moving one woman show rose i'll be introducing you to another one of our amazing power listers and have you ever wondered what the job of an ambassador is apart from distributing delicious chocolates at parties well i'll be asking not one but two all about their time as foreign british diplomats it's going to be quite the hour. And of course, we would love to hear from you about anything you hear on the programme. That text number once again, 84844. But we can't not mention the big night tomorrow.

Eurovision is up in Liverpool. Team Woman's Hour want to wish May Muller, friend of the programme, the best of luck. No nil point for the United Kingdom tomorrow, please. That text number, once again, if you want to get in touch, 84844. And if you want to drop me an email, please go to our website. And now a real treat for us all. I have actor and writer Dame Maureen Lipman live in the studio with me this morning. Her one woman memory play Rose is about to be staged for a month at the Ambassadors Theatre in London's West End from May the 23rd after much-heralded sell-out runs at two theatres in London and Manchester. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Dame Maureen. It is so wonderful to see you. You

are radiant this morning. Am I? Yeah, absolutely. That's not a word I would have associated with myself, but thank you. Before we talk about Rose and the play, I need to know if you're going to be watching Eurovision and if you'll be watching it with Giles Brandreth. Only if it's got naked men in it with piercings. No, I won't be watching it with Giles. But I did spend a happy morning with him on Coronation Street

when Good Morning Britain and Corrie combined for the coronation. And he was, strangely enough, wearing a jumper. Really? Weird. Very, very out of character. Never wears jumpers, does he? You're here to talk to us all about the most wonderful, tragic, trauma-filled, risk-taking, compelling story about Rose. You're on stage alone for two hours, sitting shiver, as the character Rose, mourning for many dead

and talking us through her life, and it's a reflection of 20th century Jewish history. Tell us about Rose. Who is she? Well, you just did much better than I. No, no, no. I find this one really hard to sell because I don't want it to sound exclusively ethnic in any way. It's actually like all Martin Sherman's plays,

because, you know, he wrote Bent and When She Danced and lots of screenplays. It's really about passion. It's about love and survival. And Rose is dry and witty and articulate. And when you say two hours, yes, I do sit on a bench and I it's a story that I didn't really know myself, even as a, you know, a child of Jewish parents. And it's about compassion that is needed for people who are uprooted. And you just can't believe. I mean, there's one sequence where she's on the Exodus, the famous Exodus ship. And I had not realized, nobody ever talked about it. And it certainly wasn't in our history classes. where she's on the Exodus, the famous Exodus ship. And I had not realized, nobody ever talked about it,

and it certainly wasn't in our history classes, that the British did not want the refugees from the camps to go to Palestine, as it was then, and to stop them, they used every means. They rammed the ship, they got on board, they shot people, They clubbed them. And she's saying, Rose is saying, you know, that there was nothing for them to defend themselves with except cans of kosher corned beef that was stored on the deck. So I threw potatoes, potatoes. And that's just and then they were going from country to country, these people who were already traumatized. And she starts in the Ukraine in a little shtetl.

She goes to Warsaw. She meets the love of her life, a red-haired gypsy man with one earring. She makes passionate love with him. Then the Warsaw ghetto comes. You see man with one earring. She makes passionate love with him. Then the Warsaw Ghetto comes. So there's something vaguely Zelig-like about the show in that she's in all the great places which have a great history of that period. And it really makes you sit up and pay attention

about just how much has happened in the last hundred years for the Jewish community. It really does strike it home. I'm going to get to the passion and the sex because I think it's very important to talk about that. But actually, I want to pick up on something you just said right at the beginning, and it just struck a chord with me, and it was just the fact that you felt you needed to apologise

for it being ethnic. Ah, I don't mean that to sound quite how it sounds, Anita. I really just mean that it's not a play that Jewish people have to see. We kind of know. It's a play about immigrants and how they make colour in a country and how compassionate we have to be with, you know, it couldn't be more relevant. Now, it was written 25 years ago by Martin.

And at the time, in a rather sort of self-aggrandising way, I now realise, you know, I had just done all the BT commercials. So literally everywhere I went, somebody went, you know, you've got an ology. They still do to this day. Yes. So I didn't, I was 45. I didn't want to play an old Jewish woman on a bench.

Had he written it for you? I wouldn't say any great writer would ever write something specifically for someone. But, you know, we are brethren and I do have his voice in my ear always because I did his first, one of his first plays, Messiah. And it's always, you know, it's always that you're channeling the writer's voice. And the luck of it in this particular case is that the man is an absolutely genius writer. And it just flows. I mean, we all as actors, we get scripts that are good. We get scripts that you have to paper over.

You know, Coronation Street is always a different author every week. So sometimes you sound like your character and sometimes you think, ah, Evelyn wouldn't say that. You know, you get proprietorial. But with Martin, you just step on that vessel and you just sail through. Having said that, it's 47 pages and I'm petrified every time I go on stage. Why? 47 pages is a lot and I'm 77, that's why. Do you have techniques in case you forget a line?

Every night is different because it's a different audience and sometimes I just have to wait till my brain goes and gets back into it. Sometimes, you know, I'll just pretend for a little minute that I'm just sort of doing my hair or something. I just I just pray that it's going to be fine. And mostly it is. You style it out very well. And, you know, you've got your techniques. I think we need to hear a little bit. Let's hear you as Rose.

This is from the second half of the play. You're now living in America, married to your second husband, Sonny, who you met on the boat Exodus after World War II, and you have a son, Abner. Sonny has a rare neurological disorder and needs a lot of care, so you need to earn the money. You take a job ordering food for the Majestic Hotel and soon end up managing the place. Let's have a listen.

The guests were intrigued by me because of the exodus. That gave me cachet. It spelled adventure, unlike the death camps, which were too dark and too threatening to be even thought about. A boat they could deal with, but I didn't tell them about anything else, nor did I tell Abner. I didn't tell him about the ghetto, not even about Yuletishka. And I made sure that the guests never spoke directly

to him in Yiddish. I wanted Abbie to be an all-American boy. I stopped dressing like a demented gypsy. My suddenly tasteful wardrobe stood out from the clashing colors of the majestic clientele. They knew, they knew I didn't quite belong. But what finally cemented my popularity was the one true gift that Sonny had given me, apart from my life, which was my name. Because who could forget rose rose i would do it all differently now would you i can't believe that's what you're thinking you were shaking i thought you were just really enjoying it but you were critiquing yourself yep yep get better maureen yep no it's it's it's fine it's can you, do you like yourself when you see yourself?

No, of course not. I can never listen to myself back. But, you know, you, am I allowed to say how old you are? I just said it. You're 77 last week and it's preposterous. I mean, Rose starts the play by saying, I'm 80 years old. I find that unforgivable. I'm absolutely with her.

You know, there's this great episode of The Golden Girls where Bea Arthur says, I was with all these people and they were young and I thought they accepted me. And I couldn't believe it that I came out and I looked in the car mirror and there I saw an old woman. And Betty White says says who was it? Brilliant absolutely brilliant. We heard you know Rosa a later part in her life and it really resonated with me that story like it's the migrant story that she doesn't want him to know the history that she's she says she got rid of the gypsy clothes you know the identity but she has the name well she wears those clothes because she's trying to bring back the spirit of her dead husband that's right to possess her and that's an amazing sequence well let's talk about the the first husband because this we need to get to the sex uh she she's she is passionate and she continues to be in love with her first husband yusuf, for many years and calls him insatiable. And it raises questions around sex on a number of occasions. And like you say, she

summons him. She does try. And the sex with the second husband is absolutely meaningless. But I think in the end, her compassion overcomes that. You know, she really, well, there's a sequence towards the end where everything is turned upside down and something happens, I won't say, that makes her re-examine the whole thing. But I think for women, overwhelming sex is something that one dreams about. And most of the time, you just want a really good chum who gets you because the rest is just biological. And she is just transported by this man. And then when the going gets rough in the ghetto and she has left the child with him and the ghetto is burning, then she's just saying, what am I doing here with this man,

with the red hair? Who is he? I should be selling fruit by the wayside in Ukraine. What am I doing? In fact, there's a great line early on where she's saying the Russians and the Poles are fighting for who can usurp sovereignty. And she says, in Ukraine, sovereignty, who would want it? And, you know, here we are. Here we are with President Zelensky not being allowed into the eurovision song contest there's a lot of humor in it too a lot why was that important well i think that's our defense isn't it against against uh what the world has has brought down on us and uh it's a way of getting through you When I meet people who are survivors, as I did recently in Manchester at the War Museum,

they're fantastic, you know, they're funny and they're feisty. We have to have a means of survival, and that traditionally has been it. Also, it's one of the few things we were allowed to do. So all the comics were Jewish. She says that in the play. So all the comics were Jewish. She says that in the play. All the television comics were Jewish. And even the Jewish magician produced little Jewish rabbits out of it.

But at the moment, you know, we're not very fashionable. So other ethnic minorities have overtaken us and we are regarded as, by many as you know we pass so it's important to see this history yeah not with any bitterness you know but just to recognize it exactly and recent and so much of it oh my you know I I stuff that I didn't know and of course I didn't even know I was Polish until I went on a DNA journey because nobody talked about it. And what did that do to learn that about yourself?

To find that my great-grandfather was the cobbler of Kazimierz Dolny and that Rulalenska's great-grandfather was in the same area. My great-grandfather was probably building a last for him. So it's... Look, we live in the same area and was probably, you know, my great-grandfather was probably building a last for him. So it's, look, we live in the present. We have to live in the present. But our history is what's shaped us. And yes, I'm thrilled to be part of Europe. There's so many themes throughout Rose's story.

Grief, God, ageing. But the notion of belonging and what that means and how always feeling like an outsider. Always feeling like an outsider, yes. It really impacts her and that really stuck with me. But also I quite like the idea of embracing being the outsider. Well, yes, because you get an objective view on everything that's inside. And certainly by the end, she's got a very objective view about Israel. And that brings us to a whole new continent of emotion and bias, which we won't talk about today.

So it's the 20th century summed up by a very brilliant author. And I don't want to use the privilege word, but I am privileged to do it. To get a play like this land in your lap like you said you could have done it when you were 45 but you didn't you've done it now what has it done for you personally to sit up on stage and embody Rose and to learn this history and to know this story? People always say is it lonely you know on your own and I've done quite a few shows on my own. I'm very fortunate to be in a position to be in the National Theatre of Television and to be on my

own in the New Ambassadors. And I don't feel alone. I mean, I am scared, of course, because your confidence gets less as you get older. But at the same time, I'm sharing thousands of characters. It's no different from doing Rejoice, Joyce Grenfell. I'm bringing characters and you're getting it or you're not getting it. And it's theatre, it's live, it's dangerous, you know. I don't like the thought of my confidence getting less as I get older.

It's shaky enough as it is. Oh, you're brilliant. No, but you know, the confidence, I'm just... Didn't you just walk into things when you were in your 20s? Sure. Didn't you just believe that everything you'd got was something that they wanted and if they didn't know they wanted it, they would by the end of the interview?

I've found, somebody sent me a BFI clip of me at 20, just having made up the junction, and you should see me. I've got a Helen Shapiro hairdo. I've got a bright red crepe two-piece on with a white, and I'm glistening. I'm horrible. But also, I'm saying, well, it's so wonderful, actually,

to be able to be Northern. It gives me such pleasure that, you know, after people like Albert Finney and Tom Courtney, that I can really be myself. It gives me such pleasure that, you know, after people like Albert Finney and Tom Courtney, that I can really be myself. Who is that? Who is that woman? But, you know, as you get older and you've got father to fall, then clearly, you know, it's a bit tougher. How, I mean, two hours on stage alone, you ended up with shingles last time. Shingles, yes. How are you going to protect your health?

I'm going to try. I'm concerned. Thank you. I'm going to try to be a bit more dispassionate. Although I have this story in my DNA, I don't have any relatives who died in the camps that I know of. And I've just got to stay back a bit. And it's really hard for me, even in Corrie, not to take it into my bones. You know, the best actors don't do that.

They play the part and they don't torture themselves. So for 55 years I've been torturing myself on a nightly basis. It's got to stop. How are you going to? It's not going to stop, though, is it? You just said that you've just finished two weeks of Corrie non-stop and now you're down in London. They've thrown the works at me on Corrie. You wait and see that. I mean, they've been giving me seven scenes a day to learn. Me and Claire Sweeney, we've been crying, we've been

laughing, we've been doing our rehearsing on a car going back and forward to London. Look, who's not lucky? I know I'm lucky still to be able to walk and think, speak. Amazing career. Five years on Corrie now. Yes, I know. Is Evelyn Plummer a permanent fixture? I'll probably stay on for another year. I do find being up north is quite nice. I don't have to think about whether it's book or book or back.

And everybody's good, you know, through COVID, when we could not pick up a cup and we couldn't be in a room unless one person was at one end and one at the other. And actually the standard stayed very high and much of it is as good as it was ever. What do you enjoy about playing that character? Oh, she's evil. Yeah, that's for me.

She's very in my... It's not much of a stretch, honestly. I come from a family of dry one-line women and I hear her voice very clearly And it's that northern sense of humour as well isn't it that Corrie does just so brilliantly Yeah and it's historic a bit for me having

Jack wrote episode 13 back in 1960 before I ever met Jack and you know it was a very simple thing then. There were only 29 characters. You rehearsed in a studio that was taped down

and you recorded on a Friday. Now we go in, we read it, we block it, we film it. Thank you, next. And that's done. They've rinsed you, so to speak. And now you're down here, ready to play Rose. So are you in a completely different headspace? What will you do to prepare before you begin?

I think I'll learn it. You know it, surely. No, no, it's in there. I know it's in there. But the last two weeks, so four weeks, I haven't had time to look at it. I walk in the park mumbling, but then so does everybody else because they're all on the phone. And I've got a week to re-rehearse it, get it back into my muscles.

And so bear with me when you can, will you, love? We will. We will. We'll be cheering and we can't wait. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. And to you. Thank you for boning up on things and not making me feel embarrassed about plugging something. Oh, no, come on.

That's what it's all about. Now, any time. You're welcome. We'll roll out the red carpet, put the kettle on, whatever you want. And you can see Dame Maureen Lipman in Rose at the Ambassadors Theatre in London from May the 23rd through to June the 18th. It's going to be quite something.

Lots of you getting in touch about various things we're talking about. Oh, I once set my A-level class homework entitled Wouldn't you just die without marla maureen's line from educating rita that's from callie in glasgow that is brilliant um i've never seen a bad performance from maureen she seems to thoroughly inhabit her character's skin whether it be a straight role comedic role or something poignant i've already got tickets for rose in june and my friend and i are making a day of it. Lunch over the road first and then immersing ourselves in the show. Break a leg.

Oh, that's so nice. Thank you. There you go. A lot of support. A lot of support. Now, I'm joined by another of our inspiring women who made the Woman's Hour Power List this year, featuring 30 women leading the way and making a difference in sport in the UK. Dr. Rimala Akhtar featured on the list as a leader at number 19.

She's a non-executive director at the Rugby Football League and chairs their inclusion board. She also co-founded the Global Muslim Women in Sport Network and became the first Muslim and Asian woman to sit on the FA Council. In 2021, she was awarded an OBE for her contribution to diversity and equality in sports. Remla, welcome to the programme. Lovely to see you. First of all, congratulations on the Women's Hour Power List. How does it feel? Well, thank you so much. I mean, it sounds a bit corny saying it, but it was an absolute honour

and a surprise as well. For very personal reasons, I sort of had taken a bit of a step back for a few years. So to be named and recognised in this way was really lovely. And actually, I think reflecting on the event itself, you know, that morning when it was revealed and seeing so many new faces in the crowd, I just think the way women's sports move forward was really reflected in that list as well. So just an honour to be part of it. I've listed so many of your achievements, pretty immense. What are you most proud of?

I wouldn't say it's one thing. I'm really always at pains to say that my work isn't just about a specific niche within sport. It's very much across sports about governance, leadership and so on. But I think it would be wrong of me to not really, I guess, highlight the work that I started doing, which was around Muslim women in sport. And I think, you know, when I grew up playing various sports and I only got into the administration side of things and sort of organizing things around 2005. So for the last almost 20 years, I can't believe it, but almost 20 years, it's been very much around building this foundation of Muslim women in sports and really actually seeing that power list and the number of Muslim women on that power list as well just to me says that, you know, we've done a good job.

We did a good job from 2005 onwards and everyone that did everything before then as well. Because oftentimes, you know, I grew up being the only Muslim woman in sports around every space that I was in. And I'm sure it was the same for everyone else. So to now say that we have this group of Muslim women and a growing group of Muslim women, either playing, refereeing, coaching in media and so on,

it's just fantastic to see. I'm really proud of that journey, really. Why is diversity and equality in sports so important to you? It's personal, Anita. So it's,'s you know I grew up listening to Maureen actually there and yourself talking about that migrant journey when you come to a country that is different to kind of your ancestors you know I was born and brought up in London but growing up in the sort of late 80s into the 90s, as you can imagine, it was particularly difficult for someone of South Asian descent and visibly Muslim in the latter years. There's a lot of discrimination that we were dealing with out on the streets.

But for me, I always say this, you know, sport was this space where nobody cared about the colour of my skin. You know, the fact that I'm a girl wears this piece of cloth around my head and, you know, all of these things didn't matter. It was just my ability on the sports field. And so for me, sport was just this equaliser, this level playing field that we talk about all the time. And I think it gave me that confidence and that safety. You know, all the problems happened out there,

but on the sports field everything was good um and I happened to be good at sports so that was always helpful how did you get into it how did you start so I um I have two older brothers um so it's bound to be that I play with them you know growing up in the back garden playing cricket one of us fielding one batting one bowling did you have milk did you use the milk crate as the wicket we used a wall actually so we had uh we had a wall that was our our wicket but um yeah just remember jumping over fences as someone smacked the ball you know in someone else's garden and all sorts so it was it was a really active lifestyle growing up and you know my mum

as well was was massively into sports and sports president year after year back in Pakistan where she's from and her mum played basketball and her dad played referee you know referee hockey it was just in in the blood um so so for us it was it was a massive part of our life growing up and I just I guess I wanted to see more women and girls and people in general, you know, guys and boys as well, that could really enjoy sports and could enjoy all the positives that sport brings to our life and the development that happens through sport as well. happened in sport and so much has happened particularly in women's sport but um just to talk about diversity a little bit i started thinking about the england um football team that won the euros last summer and many noticed the team photo from the starting lineup that didn't feature any women of color there were three women nikita paris jess carter and demi stokes who made up the team who aren't white but but rarely played i just wondered what your reaction to that was. Look, it's clearly disappointing.

And, you know, there's no lack of talent out there in these communities, in the Asian community, in the black community and so on. You know, my colleagues, ex-colleagues at the FA and others are really aware of my thoughts on this. And there's constant communications around what needs to be done and what needs to get better. I think the way that the women's football structures are set up currently, and it's not just football, by the way, Anita, it's also other sports as well. You'll see this across team sports that it will be the same picture. And I think it's just the fact that football has been highlighted and greatly so.

It's every sport you can see that the structures don't currently enable and support women from diverse backgrounds to get into the pathways. And that could be purely because of, you know, where those communities are located and there isn't a regional talent centre, for example, that's nearby that makes it easy for women from those communities to enter the pathway. It's these kind of issues that are getting in the way of that talent being spotted. And that's really disappointing, not just from a young girl growing up and looking at that team and thinking, oh, will I fit into this? Or just you know, just the football industry itself, you know, the women's football space itself,

really just missing out on the talent that's in those communities. But like I say, it's the same right across every sport and I'm doing what I can to try and change that. Where do you want to see, so there's lots of changes, where's the most urgent changes that need to be made? Are they on the pitch? Is it visibility or is it in boardrooms? Which matters more?

Oh, gosh, I don't think you can compare in that way. I think it's very much top-down, bottom-up approach. So when I say bottom-up, I mean grassroots football and grassroots sport where women and girls are playing. We definitely need to see more diversity there. We see it at certain, know at the grass the very grassroots level you see girls of different backgrounds playing sports but what like i say what they're not doing is then being able to access um the pathways that exist and at the top

obviously the boardroom and the decision making around where do we go to find talent um how do we set these structures up to make sure that this is not just an add-on on the side you know with inclusion bits on the side but actually everything that we do is inclusive from its core um and that includes things like um you know who our coaches are who our talent scouts are who are people are that are going out there and engaging with these communities and like as like i keep saying you know where we're're going to find these people and the programs that we're putting in place to enable that talent to shine and come through.

I want to get a bit more personal, Rimla. I want to know how you, as one of the lone women who's been doing this for 20 years, and obviously the landscape has changed recently, but how and where do you get your own personal resources to be able to walk into those rooms knowing that you're going to ruffle feathers knowing that you don't look like anybody else knowing that you're pushing for something that people might be resistant to how do you where do you find that within you the confidence yeah it's it comes from a solid grounding from my mother,

I would say, first and foremost. This innate sort of stubbornness, she calls it, actually, in terms of just wanting to do what's right, see what's right being done as well out there in the world. So I think, you know, that sense of giving back to the community and trying to create change definitely comes from her. But I think, you know, it is difficult. And I'll be honest in that I think recently I've recognised the impact it has had on me to be that lone voice in the room. And I'm just so glad that what I have established, I've helped to establish now is

something that is more of a community of people that are creating change. So if I think of the FA Council, you know, when I first joined the FA Council back in 2014, I was one of four women out of about 100. And I was one of three people of colour, not just women of colour, but people of colour. And I was less than half the average age, the youngest person ever at that point to join the council. And I look at it now and how diverse it is now. I would say a quarter of the council would identify themselves as someone with a diverse background or a younger person or whatever it might be. But it's just wholly changed. And I think, you know, I've always heard my elders speak about the importance of networks and support systems. And I hope that I've helped to create that in places like the FA Council and I'll continue to do that elsewhere. It's tough. I think every person,

man or woman, but women in particular, talk about how heavy the load is when you're that first person. And like I say, I recognise that now, but I also look at it and go, wow, Rimla, you did good. And, you know, I'm just really, like I said, I'm really grateful that I was able to help, you know know the experience of those coming after me to be better oh Rimla you did more than good you did great and uh congratulations on making our power list it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you this morning thank you uh Women's Hour powerlister leader Dr Rimla Akhtar you can learn more about the women on our power list on our Women's Hour website.

Lots of you getting in touch with me this morning about blended families. My stepfather's partner's son is like an older brother to my son. They're very close. Surprising relationships develop. Lucy says, I'm from a blended family. My brother and sister have even more siblings. I think we muddled through really quite well. It's what it is and it worked for a long time. More recently, cracks have developed, but I'm 51 years old now.

Someone else is saying, why is it called blended family? It's just a family, for goodness sake. 84844 is the number to text. The reason I'm talking about this is because blended families are created for all sorts of reasons, because of breakups or the death of a parent through fostering or adoption. Well, Kate Ferdinand, previously Kate Wright of The Only Way's Essex fame, married the former footballer Rio Ferdinand in 2019, four years after his first wife, Rebecca, and mother of their three children had died. As a new step-mum, she struggled, partly because she felt very alone and that no one understood

what she was going through. But there was also very little out there to help someone in her situation the step parenting parts of books and websites were tiny she says well Kate joins me now from our Salford studio to talk about her new book How to Build a Family. Kate welcome to Woman's Hour um so is this why you decided to write the book because you couldn't find the help that you needed? Hiya and thank you for having me. Yes, exactly that reason. I'm absolutely not the first step parent but I came into this and my head was all foggled and I didn't really know what I was doing or where to find help.

So I'm hoping that How To Build A Family is that kind of like manual that you can pick up at any time to help anyone at any stage of their blended family journey and i know you said someone said earlier about blended yeah and you know what we are just a family but that's the best way i suppose to describe it there's got to be a name so you can help others if that makes sense yeah of course so people know what you're talking about yeah um so it's a how to how to make it work handbook. What can people expect to find in it?

So there's a little bit of my story and what we guys, what us guys have been through as a family and then lots of experts, everyday people sharing their stories that are different from mine and also lots of tips and little bits of practical advice and little planners. Hopefully just everything to make your life a little bit easier. Well, let's start by talking about your own story. Tell us a bit about your relationship with Rio, how it developed. Because you first met him, you were 26 and it moved very quickly, didn't it? It did move quite quickly. They always say when you know, you know, and I felt like it was that kind of situation.

Moved quite quickly and within not long, I was in the children's lives and then we just had a decision to make, really, about trying to make us a happy family unit and obviously that comes with its own set of challenges, which I know any family comes with lots of challenges. And that's really where Blended has come to form, form really were you ever wary about getting involved with him because he was you know older 38 had three children you were 26 I think I read that you you'd you you always said

you wouldn't get together with someone who had children it makes me laugh when I think about it because I don't know where that come from. My parents broke up when I was young. So I came from a blended family. So I don't know where this idea of needing to be in a nuclear family come from. But I think that's just part of the books and everything that is in our head from when we're a child, from when we're children. I didn't think about it too much. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. But I just, you know, I fell in love and I loved Rio.

And so that meant that I wanted to love the kids. And that's how I saw it at the beginning. I think it was only when we moved into the family home that I realised, wow, maybe I've underestimated this a little bit. Taking on three children that have obviously lost a parent and Rio lost his wife. You know, it's harder than what I first anticipated. Well, what were those first few days like

when you first met Lorenz, Tate and Tia when you moved in together? You said that you felt very alone and that no-one understood what you were going through. You know what they always say? They say you don't know someone until you live with them. Whether that be a partner or children, I think it takes time to get to know someone, especially living with them,

and taking on three children, getting to know their routines and about their after-school activities, and even just logistically. I found it quite difficult, but emotionally it took a while for us all to bond as well. What were the first challenges? Oh God, it seems like such a long time ago.

I mean, lots of practical challenges, just like I just didn't really cook. I wasn't a biological parent before that, so I maybe didn't think about certain things that a parent would. I talk about this in the book, but even flying with the children and having a different surname and getting stopped at customs and thinking all these

little little tiny details that i didn't really think about um that all come to a head when when i moved in i'd say um we've got lots of people getting in touch about this um sharing their own experiences i'm going to read some of them out for you kate um someone says i can relate to the stepchild issue i've brought brought up my daughter since she was four she's almost 16 and i still get the cold shoulder if i reprimand her but if i'm showering her with praise or getting the things she asks for it's like we're best mates very hard to find a balance what do you say to that i I would say, listen, I know how it feels, but I sometimes think that maybe she's just being a teenager because I sometimes mistake my children just being teenagers

and sometimes being a little bit stroppy for me taking it personally because I'm their step-parent. So it is difficult. I'm extra emotional around that and sometimes it's hard as a step-parent because you do take things personally. But sometimes I try and remind myself they're teenagers. I might not have been the off, it's your child. But if you're a step parent, how do you not take it personally? What do you have? What techniques can you deploy? What do you have to remind yourself to make sure that you protect yourself and your relationship with that child? Honestly, I can't sound perfect at this.

Some days I'm great and some days if I'm not in the best headspace, I might take things personally. But I think it's just about reminding yourself who you are, that you love them, that you're there for the right reason. And kids will be kids. And sometimes we just have to go with it. Although when you're in the moment, I do know that that can be difficult. There's so many messages, lots of people talking about this which is great um an anonymous email here my mum handled her breakup with my dad terribly she was hurt but tried to take us down with her he left her for another woman and has been very happily married for many

many years but my mum is still bitter she almost destroyed our relationship with our dad i've only just repaired it as an adult i now have a brilliant relationship with them and i know that my dad made the right choice as a step mum myself now I do everything differently both my daughter and as my stepchildren maybe going through my childhood set me up to be a better step mum myself you know what I do think our life our childhood shapes us and whatever experience you have that kind of shapes you into the parent that you become um but I always think it's really difficult because the children are just in the middle and really most of us just want happy kids that aren't stressed so try to try and put all that kind of stuff aside

you have a whole chapter on bonding I imagine that must have taken a while for all of you how did you approach it you say you say take it slowly and prioritize the kids yes I mean have taken a while for all of you. How did you approach it? You say take it slowly and prioritise the kids. Yes. I mean, it takes a while. And you know what? Every family's got a different timeline. But something that we've done from the beginning is just include the kids in lots of decisions.

I remember when Rio asked me to be his girlfriend in a very romantic setting in a caf while we were eating a fry up. Lovely. But the kids were involved in it. And setting in a caf while we're all eating a fry up lovely but the kids were involved in it and that's kind of what we've followed throughout our whole relationship which has really helped with our bonding because it's meant that the kids feel involved in everything I mean they're involved in our wedding and my my biological son Cree you know choosing his name and things like that. So I feel like that was

a really big thing, number one. And number two, I would say, just learning what the kids like. So I don't love football. Well, I kind of know a lot about it now, but I didn't when I met the kids. Hang on a minute. What, what, what? You don't, like, okay, so now you've had to. Now you know all about it. Now I've got no choice. Exactly. But just coming down to

the level find that what football they like finding out you know about their favorite music and tear loves horse riding and just showing an interest in what they're interested in so you've actually got things to talk about because it can be difficult someone else said the biggest challenge for a blended family is the older generations we've been a family for 30 years we have 10 grandchildren now and our parents the great-grandparents are still insisting on separating out the families into real and not it's very painful oh gosh that sounds really difficult it's so hard because you know some people view family by blood we obviously don't do that because i think there's lots more to family and it's about love

but it can be difficult to educate people and then come around to your way of thinking when they're set in their ways yeah i guess as long as you've got your little family unit and bond you don't let that come between you um jackie's got in touch today i became a stepmother age 30 which changed my life completely for the better i knew i'd done something right when emma my beautiful and unique stepdaughter made me mother of the bride at her wedding oh that's making me emotional. I feel a bit emotional, to be honest. I know. These are lovely messages. And then she gets better.

She asked me to cut the cord at the birth of my gorgeous grandson. Blended families take work, but I do believe that love is often stronger than blood. What a beautiful story. Yeah, I think you really put the work in don't get me wrong we put the work in with all of our biological or non-biological children but it's nice to put that work in and really reap the rewards for that with love within your family um and how are you now kate i'm okay i'm seven and a half months pregnant. Doing okay. Going to be honest, a little bit tired, but you know, it's a busy house. I'm always on the go.

I love the bit at the beginning where you just give all the names that you have within the house for you. Oh yeah, Kate. So I'm Kate. I'm mummy. I'm mummy Kate. If someone's annoyed with me, I could also be another name and when you think back to 25 year old Kate who couldn't see any of this in her future and you look at your life now what do you think she would say you know it's really funny because if I think back to then I think I wouldn't believe you but I couldn't wish for anything more like I've always dreamed of having a really big family I don't think I realized how it would come to me but it has come to me and I'm just so grateful for my big lovely crazy wild family and and well done on the book good luck with it all and uh yes well

done on imparting all the lessons that you've learned been an absolute pleasure speaking to you this morning okay best thank you so much best of luck morning kate best thank you so much with the baby lovely thank you so much take care thank you 84844 is the number to text lots of you sharing your stories about blended families my wife and i met at work in 2001 we'd both been through two failed marriages and each had custody of two children ranging in age from 7 to 11 we knew it was a gamble and that it would be challenging to bring two families together. But we decided to take the plunge and move in together. As step parents, we were often challenged by our partner's children, but we adopted the approach that we only disciplined our own. Our four children grew up into healthy, happy, hardworking adults who now think of

themselves as real siblings. What a great message. Now, what's it really like to be a female ambassador? A new Netflix show, The Diplomat, has got people talking all about the role. The show stars American actress Kerry Russell as Kate Wyler, a new US ambassador to the UK, parachuted into the job in the midst of a crisis. Let's hear a bit. ocean. They clocked some instability in a propeller and diverted to the Royal Navy base in Bahrain for repairs. So nobody spent a long time planning this? No. Weapon fragments? Not yet. The investigation hasn't really ramped up. They're still pulling bodies out of the water. Ma'am, the President and the Prime Minister will be on inside. There you go. Her charismatic yet slippery husband, who also happens to be an ex-ambassador, is played by Rufus Sewell. Yes, he is. And it debuted at number one on Netflix, weekly global top ten list. It's even been hailed as a modern day West Wing. So we wanted to know, is the real life of a diplomat just as exciting?

Well, I'm joined by two former ambassadors, Jules Chappell and Laura Clark, to find out. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Jules, you were Britain's youngest ever ambassador. Where were you posted? To Guatemala, covering Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. Oh, fabulous. And how about you, Laura? I was the British High Commissioner to New Zealand and also the Governor of the Pitcairn Islands. And you've both moved on to other roles now, Laura to be CEO of the environmental law charity Client Earth and Jules to be CEO of Cochoro, a non-for-profit which champions mental health.

But I want to stay with your diplomat days. What's it like to be a diplomat? Does the TV series get it right at all, Jules? Because you're sitting in front of me. I'm smiling because actually there is a lot that, I mean, it is really, really fun. It's very fast paced and i've been enjoying watching it actually for seeing um lots of the real rooms uh so the you know the offices in king charles

street a lot of it is real oh that's absolutely yes i've been really enjoying kind of going going back through memory lane um obviously it's it's a little dramatized but you know i i was thinking back over my career and i was shot at multiple times i had friends that were kidnapped you know, I was thinking back over my career and I was shot at multiple times. You had friends that were kidnapped. You know, you can be really in the thick of the action as well as obviously having lots of mundane days in front of emails, etc. But it is it's a pretty extraordinary career. You're nodding along there, Laura. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with Jules. There is the drama and the glamour, perhaps not quite as condensed as that.

It's um generally you know there are lots of rather more mundane days but it is the most extraordinary career because I think it is at its best diplomacy is the art of the possible it's how you bring people together and how you can effect change um so sticking with you Laura what's the job description what is it what do you do yeah so it's so job description? What is it? What do you do? Yeah, so it's really essentially what you're doing is you're building understanding between countries. You're trying to work out how you can work together and really affect change that, you know, bring positive impact. So in New Zealand, for example, we were working on a free

trade agreement post Brexit. We're very focused on COP26, the climate talks. And I also had a particular focus on strengthening the relationship with New Zealand Maori, given it was the 250th anniversary of first encounters between Britain and New Zealand Maori. So there's a whole range of things, but ultimately at its core, it's about how do you build understanding? How do you build trust and cooperation to deliver benefits for both countries? And how do you get the diplomacy done? How much of it is about the soft power? I think a lot of it. I mean, I certainly used to have quite a lot of fun playing with the Britishness. So we set up a British week where we'd, you know, have British fashion and British bands and British charities

showing what they were doing. But it's also the empathy of embracing everything local. And that's the joy of it, getting to actually live, not just travel, but, you know, live with different cultures and to find all those overlaps and things that you share and have in common. And what qualifies you for the job? Oh, gosh, Laura, you have a go at that one.

For me, it's the combination of being able to do the big strategic thinking, to work on these big issues of our time, you know, geopolitics, climate change, trade. So there's all that on the one side. You need to have the intellectual capability. And on the other, it's about people. It's about going out, making friends, building networks, working with the arts and culture, with politics, with the media, with business. And that's, in a way, the joy of it. So you get the intellect and then you get the people side. And Laura, you were in New Zealand from 2018 to 2022. It's quite a busy period in the country. Did you work closely with the then Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern? I did, actually. I arrived shortly after she became Prime Minister

and we got on very well. We did a podcast actually early on in my time there for International Women's Day and, you know, talking amongst other things about imposter syndrome. And she is, you know, she brought a different style of leadership, which I think is really important, you know, being frank about what the challenges are and really engaging and connecting with people. And that was then, of course, incredibly important through all the crises that New Zealand faced in those years, the Christchurch terrorist attacks, the Pakari White Island volcanic eruption, and then, of course, COVID, which affected all of us in a massive way. And I suppose it changes your experience as well,

depending on who you're having to communicate with. Yeah, it absolutely does. But, of course, unlike in The Diplomat, the Netflix series, we, of course, are completely non-political, engaged with whoever is the government. But actually having that personal dynamic there matters. And there's a wonderful moment that being New Zealand where Jacinda and I were at a tree planting ceremony in Gisborne. And my daughter was there. I was there with all three of my kids um and my daughter got hollowed of stones in her shoe and without really looking around she sort

of grabbed hold of Jacinda's waist to pull off her shoe and chuck the stones out and so it's that sort of very nice very real life approach that was that's very very New Zealand and I think quite an important style of leadership um very contrasting to what you were saying jules because i haven't forgotten um you talking about being shot at so we need to pick up on that um was that in guatemala what happened uh actually no i don't think i did get shot at there other countries uh no um particularly iraq uh so i was there in 2003 which was the period period after Saddam during the coalition. And yes, there were multiple rocket attacks and I was in a hotel that was attacked. And, you know, I mean, that is the thing when you are, you know, an incredible team out in Ukraine, for example,

but all over the world where diplomats are on the ground supporting British nationals, but obviously local communities as well. How common is it to have a female ambassador? There's loads of us now, which is great. You know, a lot of the senior posts are women. And it's something that I think is very different to when I first joined, which was back in 2000. But it's also, it's not just having women, which is important, but it's also so many styles of leadership. And I think listening to Laura talk about Jacinda, that reflects the changes that I've seen as well. So I think for some of the first women, there was perhaps a bit of a pressure to be perhaps quite male in the way

that they were an ambassador. Whereas now, and I would argue that this is not specific to gender, I think there are just so many different ways of being a leader and that we're all much better and stronger for having that diversity. Why did you want to do the job? Oh gosh, ambassador or diplomat? Ambassador. Ambassador because I actually, I was very, I mean, I was 31. I wanted to show that it was possible to do something at that very young age and felt that that could be inspiring. But also I wanted to have a really mixed job. I'd been doing a lot of conflict work and being an ambassador gave me a chance to do something across the commercial work, the consular work, and to kind of have a very

broad approach, which I found really interesting. Were you sad to leave, Laura? Yes and no. I think I came on to the most extraordinary opportunity uh leading client earth which in some ways is also about how you um how you affect change but very focused on climate and environmental issues so it was very much the pull factor of this extraordinary opportunity and the organization that i'm leading now but but I think what's funny is that diplomacy, the diplomatic corps, it is like a family, you know, have friends all over the world and that sense of support. So when there is a crisis, when there is a kidnapping, when there is a sort of, you know, COVID where I had 12,000 Brits stranded in New Zealand and all somehow slightly thought it was my fault that they

were stuck there, the support, you know, rallies around. So it is an extraordinary opportunity. But then you also want to use those skills in different ways to affect change and have positive impact elsewhere. Yeah, Jules is nodding along to that. So, so true. I think it's yes to it being a family. We're all there to support each other. But yes to also using those diplomatic skills. So me now it's affecting the world you know global mental health and using that kind of convening ability to get people to work together um so yeah I think diplomats can be very impactful not just within the foreign do you miss it I miss the people um but actually like Laura I'm very very happy to be able to do something which is still global.

But, you know, I think when I first joined, I looked at public sector as the way to have impact in the world. Now, I think you can be in big companies and have big, you know, have big impact. And obviously what I'm doing with a coalition of philanthropists and investors investing in mental health, that's a very different way to have impact. So I think we've got many more choices now. It's been absolutely fascinating listening and talking to both of you. Thank you so much to Laura and to Jules. And you can watch The Diplomat on Netflix now. It's a real hoot. And as we know now, they are the actual offices where they've had meetings.

That's it from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. But do remember to join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What could be more modern than a net zero travel show? A show about going places that never goes anywhere. Welcome then to Your Place or Mine on BBC Radio 4. I'm Sean Keaveney and I love travelling almost as much as I love staying at home

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attempts to lull me out of my postcode with persuasion alone. Eat the insects too. I mean, that's what they do a lot in Oaxaca. They normally roast them and then you can scatter them on your guacamole. There's something deliciously kind of earthy and umami about insects. Anybody who's been on the back of my Uncle Paul's motorbike's eaten a lot of insects, you know, because he goes very fast. Your place or mine, with me, Sean Keaveney. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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