Woman's Hour - Maureen Lipman, Memoirs, Black maternal health, Women in security, Afghan women's football

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Dame Maureen Lipman joins Chloe Tilley to talk about Allegra, the joyful new musical play that begins a nationwide tour just two days after her 80th birthday. She tells us about playing a woman who finds happiness in a world that can't quite handle it, and the physical demands of singing and dancing eight times a week.A University of Cambridge study has found that socioenvironmental stressors - such as racism or poverty - may influence the body’s ability to function healthily in pregnancy - they say it could help to explain why black women and their babies face significantly higher rates of complication than white women. We hear from the lead author of the study Dr Grace Amedor. Is it time to retire the term 'bouncer'? We hear from Satia Rai, CEO of the International Professional Security Association, who will tell the largest gathering of the security profession in Europe this week that we should ditch it in favour of 'guardian' to help women on a night out feel safer, and to attract more women into the job. We also get the view of Tee, a female door supervisor at a Birmingham bar.And we've heard today that Afghan women footballers will be able to play international matches from as early as June, after FIFA have said they will recognise the women's national team. The players haven't been allowed to play any official competitive internationals since the Taliban returned to power in 2021. Mahjooba Nowrouzi, senior reporter from the BBC Afghan service, discusses the significance of the decision.As Lena Dunham’s new book Famesick debuts at the top of the bestseller charts, we discuss the art of memoir and how tricky it can be for women’s stories to navigate the line between emotional honesty, ‘oversharing’ and self-protection. Chloe is joined by bestselling author Cathy Rentzenbrink, whose memoirs include The Last Act of Love, and Sarah Gwonyoma, book reviewer and founder of @whatsarahreadnext.Presenter: Chloe TilleyProducer: Helen Fitzhenry

Hello, I'm Chloe Tilly and welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now Dame Maureen Litman is joining us to talk about her latest play, Allegra, which she's taking on the road just days after her 80th birthday. We're going to discuss the demands of a role that requires eight performances a week of singing, dancing and acting, and what the joyful yet eccentric role tells us about the way society views a person with a relentless positive outlook. Stress from racism could help explain why black women are more likely to die in childbirth, according to a new study from Cambridge University.

We're going to examine the socio-environmental factors that may impact the body's ability to function healthfully in pregnancy with the help of the author of the study. Also this morning, Afghan women footballers are going to be a very important. able to play international matches from as early as this June after FIFA approved a rule change. It means players haven't been allowed to form, well, any kind of competitive fixtures, matches, internationals since the Taliban returned to power in 2021. That is now going to change. We'll have more on that later on. And we're also going to discuss whether the word bouncer should be updated to Guardian to attract more women to the role. The CEO of the International Security Association argues it will also make women feel safer when they're on a night out.

We're going to speak to her and also a young woman who works on the door of a Birmingham bar to discuss how women can often diffuse confrontations at night. So do you feel like door staff have got your back? When you're out and about, have they ever helped you on a night out, maybe when something has gone wrong? Do share your interactions with us this morning. Good and bad. You can text us 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Have door staff made you feel safer on a night out? You can WhatsApp us 0700-100-444. And as Lena Dunham's new memoir, FamSick, hits the top of the bestseller charts, we get to examine how writers managed to balance wanting to be honest with the reader, but not sharing too much in a memoir. We'll speak to two female authors about how they approach it, so he's oversharing, liberating, or maybe something you later regret.

But let's begin by talking to Dame Maureen Lippman, who in just under a fortnight turns 80. So how does a Dame celebrate such a milestone birthday? Well, it seems by kicking off a nationwide tour of a joyful new musical play called Allegra. She's going to be acting. She's going to be singing. She's going to be dancing eight times a week.

And I'm delighted to say that Dame Maureen Lippman is here with us. Welcome back to Woman's Hour. Thank you, Chloe. Sounds like a good show you've got going on. Well, I hope so. And brilliant to start by speaking to you. I was reading some of the play last night and was absolutely captivated by the role of Allegra.

Just tell us who she is, first of all. Well, I suppose you'd call her neurodiversant now. She is just relentlessly happy in a world of, as you know, vitriol cancellation, hatred, abuse. And she's just chirpy and she doesn't really look after herself. She lives on her own, but she's part of the play, is the brother. And it sort of examines sibling relationships.

And the brother trying to get a carer to come and live. And she doesn't want it. She says, I lovely living on my own. She's got one grapefruit in the fridge. And then nothing but empty tins. And yet she thinks life is great. And she goes and sings in Indian restaurants. They have to throw her out several times because there's a revolving door.

And nobody wants her kind of normality. they said, we just want you to be normal. Now, what happens in life when you meet someone who's, you know, too shamuji short of a picnic, all those expressions, it's annoying. And so the idea is that really they just want for her own good to kind of bring her down. She's got an orchestra playing in her head, and every so often she sort of just drifts off into a song,

which is quite hard to do. also sometimes she just sings, you know, the carer says to her at one point, well, is that all right? And her response is, That's all right, Mama, that's all right for me. That's all right, Mama, anything you do. Oh, she says you like to sing. Oh, yes, endlessly. I don't care if anyone's here or they're not here.

You know, it just makes me feel good. And she is endlessly joyful, isn't she? Even when people are reacting differently to her, that doesn't stop that joy? No, no, because she says, no, you know, the policeman who comes after her, says to her, you know, nobody wants a song in the petrol station. They want a bag of Doritas and some fuel. And she says, well, no, this is the thing. People don't ask for a song because they don't know they need one. Did you, why did you choose to take this role?

Was it because it was a slightly different portrayal to maybe the negativity around at the moment, It's joyful. It makes people view maybe people who see the world slightly differently in a different way. Well, I did a Peter Quilter. This is written by Peter Quilter. His play glorious was about Florence Foster Jenkins, you know, the woman who thought she could sing. And we did nine months of that. And so ever since then, he's been sending me his plays.

And I've been sort of commenting. But this one struck a chord because, to me, To be perfectly honest, Chloe, I am happy. I'm very happy. I am going to be 80, which is ridiculous. I got married in September to a beautiful human being. Thank God my kids are okay. And the world around me is this vicious, you know, morass of people. We won't go into anti-Semitism, but you know what I'm saying. And the least the least. The least, the least. of our society are just truly tyrants and horrid people. Not necessarily in this country, but he's drying his best. And so it just seems to me how it's a bit smug to be happy because there's so much pain in the world. And so you pull back a bit on saying, oh, you know, life is good.

And so I thought this would be, this would be a nice play to take around the country. really want to leave home at all. Well, I wanted to ask you about that. If you've recently got married, is that really hard to sort of up sticks and tour around? I think it will be. And David, my husband said, you know, I'll come with you to Brighton when you open. I said, no, you won't because you won't like what you see. You won't like me at all.

Don't be with me on an opening night. Well, I mean, I shall just, I'll be, you know, a gibbering wreck. And, you know, but we'll get by. We'll get by. And I'm going to places like Aberdeen where I've never been and playing bath where I've been a lot. And Malvern where I always go to the Morgan factory and watch car being built.

This is the good thing. It's a good way to celebrate a ridiculously aged birthday. But while I can, and also after six years in Corrie, which I've loved. Evelyn is a great character. They didn't kill me. They didn't electrocute me in the bath. I can go back.

But I want to do something different. New challenge. New challenge. And to be honest, I don't get offered that much. I know that sounds. Really? I work a lot. I do work a lot.

But I don't get offered, you know, a Netflix series or, you know, something that might really challenge me. Why do you think that? Well, because I don't think you'd really buy me as a detective, really. and one of those people with a battered hat and a car that you have to kickstart. I don't think you'd accept me as that. I'm not really that interested in autopsies or games of thrones and things.

I think, I don't know why not. But when something comes along that just actually touches you, then get on with it and do it and don't complain. At least you're working and making people laugh. And it sounds challenging though. I mean, eight performances a week. You're singing, you're dancing, you're acting.

Is that going to take a physical strain? I'm just thinking, and you're travelling around the country. I'm not talking about your age. I'm just talking as a human being working that much. Yes, it's going to be tough. But you think about the actors who made the Ealing comedies. They were all in a show in the evening. They got up at 6 o'clock.

They went out to Elstree. They'd, you know, clown about all day. And then they came back and did, you know, oh, darling, anyone for tennis in the evening. So we do. It keeps us young. We keep going until the end of the road and there's some

Sean Phillips is on the road, she's 90 and Judy is still giving what she can and being in theatres talking about her life and I think we just like, we don't want to drop out before, drop off the twig before the twig falls on us. How do you feel about the singing opposed to the acting?

Ah. I have sung in the past in wonderful town, in thoroughly modern Millie, in Little Night Music in Oklahoma. I've never been very good, but I get by. If the character sings, I sing, who knows how good Allegra is?

At one point, she says to her brother, do you think I could have made it as a professional singer? And he says, honestly, of course. No. He says, all right, dishonestly. I think you could have been Maria Callas. And that's the truth.

You know, we do singing in the radio. We do some sort of fairly, because sometimes she just sings out loud, like the one I take, the Elvis one. But sometimes she actually slips. And this is what the brother's worried about. She imagines she's actually on a Hollywood soundstage and she starts dancing around and things happen in the room. It's going to be a challenge, you know, to sit. Because when I get the steps right, and Stephen Meir is the choreoperator, when I get the steps right, I stop singing. What from shock that you've got it right?

That's wonderful. That'll be part of it, though. What I'm interested to know what you feel about the portrayal of Allegra in this, because it is about a woman trying to hold on to life, society the way we view older people, and actually talk about people aging within society is something that isn't necessarily handled terribly well at times. And was it a deliberate decision of yours that the idea of showing

a joyful older woman is just a different view on the world? Well, I must have thought that when I said I would do it. Because here I am exhausted. You know, there's no tub thumping in this. It's slightly frivolous, but it does make a poignant point. That when you try to bring down a person who is eccentric, when you try to make them normal because society wants them to be a particular, way, then what you get is perhaps not what you want.

And that's the brother's journey. Because then he's frightened to death when she's morbid and sitting in a chair like a sack of potatoes. So, yes, I mean, what's fascinating, I've been doing a bit of volunteering with my granddaughter at a care home. And they can't wait to hear her. They love having, you know, one of the problems of society is the fact that we're not living in groups

where with the old, the young, the middle, this is where we get a proper view of life's journey. Who expects to be 80 for goodness sake? I'm 46. It's ridiculous. And when I think of them, both my parents died at 80, so this probably will be my last broadcast. No, absolutely not.

Tell us as well, the end of the show each day is slightly different, give us a bit of a tease. Oh, well, I'm quite surprised that they're talking about this, but if they say we can't. Well, it's a sort of joint idea that went out to ask a choir, local choir in each town will come in and more or less say, we want you back by singing a song. And so this is going to be quite tricky.

Thank God I don't have to organise that. But, you know, also you can't rehearse. it. We will get to Brighton and, you know, 30 people will suddenly pop in. Well, it sounds wonderful. And of course, woman's hour is turning 80 this year. Is it? Yes. Oh, can I be your mascot? It'll be a joint birthday. It'll be wonderful. I just need to read some of these messages which are coming in because it's so nice. There's one here from Michelle in Nottingham. Maureen Lippman is always my must-see on stage. I've never seen a bad performance

and we'll be trying to get tickets right now in Capitals, says, Miss you. And also this message has come in saying you're selling this play so well. It's brilliant, Maureen. My mum got married a year ago. She's 82. She lives a fun and very busy life with lots of sex and loves sharing it. Okay. We won't be going into that this morning.

But nonetheless, it's lovely to speak to you this morning. It's all starting in Brighton, 12th of May. It's starting in Brighton on the 12th of May, two days after the big birthday. This weekend, I will be in South World, however, doing jazz and poetry. with Jackie Dankworth at the South World Festival. Lord knows how we'll fit it all in, but we will. It's a pleasure for you to come in. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

And best of luck with the play. Thank you. Take care. Well, let's turn our attention now to a University of Cambridge study, which has found that socio-environmental stresses, such as racism or poverty, may influence the body's ability to function healthily in pregnancy. They say it may help to explain why black women and their babies

face significantly higher rates of complications than white women. Well, black women in the UK are more than twice as likely to die during childbirth compared with their white counterparts. They're also more likely to experience serious birth complications and perinatal mental health illnesses. Black babies are also twice as likely to be born stillborn compared with white babies. Well, let's discuss this further by speaking to the lead author from this study, Dr. Grace Amador, Good morning to you, Grace. Good morning, Chloe.

Thank you so much for having me on. Well, thank you for talking to us. I mean, this is something we've talked about on Women's Hour at length, this significant disparity in pregnancy complications between black and white women. Talk to us about what led you to essentially review existing studies. Just talk us through the thinking and indeed the findings. So I first actually encountered these statistics. a few years ago now, there's quite a big campaign happening by a group called Five Times

More, who were established because at the time, black women were five times more likely to die than white women. And so I think hearing these statistics, as a Black woman of myself, I was quite shocked. And I guess the big question was, why was this happening? At the time, I was a medical student had to write my dissertation. So I thought this was a good topic to pick up and I had a lot of support from my university professor as well, who is the joint author of this study, Professor Dino Drusani. So we looked at the research and we found that most of it was focused more on the social explanations for the disparity, which are well established, which are systems. systemic racism, socioeconomic disparity as well, which disproportionately affect black women.

But we saw a gap in the research in that there wasn't much explanation as to how these higher level causes then lead to the biological outcomes that we see with black women having worse pregnancy complications. And so what were those essentially physical changes that you found? So our paper looked at three key biological processes. So the first one is oxidative stress, which is when excessive toxic chemicals in the body cause cellular damage. The second is inflammation, which is when the body responds to an infection or a foreign body. and in pregnancy you can regard the baby as a foreign body,

so the mother might overly react to this. And lastly, we also looked at the uteroplasental vascular resistance, which is the tightening of the blood vessels within the placenta, which can reduce blood flow to the baby and also cause harm. And so in reality, that can cause, for example, things like preeclampsia? Exactly. And so I'm just wondering what can be done to try and stop those things that women are experiencing life manifesting themselves physically that doesn't then support a pregnancy. Clearly, what you're aiming to do is to stop those factors in life. But is there anything that can be done to prevent that causing physical harm to the woman and to the baby? Yes, so what our research has done is to collate a lot of existing research on the biological, on key biological factors.

But what we saw was that a lot of the studies have not necessarily been replicated. So more research does need to be done to validate our results. And I think the results from that research would then lead on to further interventions. And what do you think those interventions could be? So possibly this could be trying to create medicines that might try to control these biological factors. I do think, however, that much of the focus needs to remain on the more upstream causes, which are the social factors and the systemic racism that affects black women.

we wouldn't want our research to distract from these upstream causes. So talk to us specifically about how racism feeds into this. So this isn't necessarily the focus of our research. So I can't fully comment on that. But what we found was that it's been established within the literature that systemic racism, socioeconomic disparities and key environmental exposures are the upstream causes of these pregnancy outcomes. It's not clear how these higher level factors then affect the biological processes that we've uncovered within our research, but our paper does suggest a possible mechanism

which is called epigenetics. So epigenetics is a biological process by which an individual's environment can then lead to molecular changes to genes and how they are expressed. So could that, for example, be something like living in poor housing, for example? That's right, Chloe. Right, okay. And so you've mentioned the three areas that you measured as part of this study. I'm just wondering what that actually means is happening to the bodies of black women when that happens.

Just explain that to us in simple language, if you can. Yes, so oxidative stress, as I said, is when there is excessive harmful chemicals being released into the body which can then damage the cells. and so this can work at the level of the placenta to then cause harm and affect the blood flow that's going to the baby and then can affect how the baby can develop. Additionally, it can affect things like preeclampsia and lead to the mother developing this complication that can lead to their death. Another thing that we saw was that these three factors can also lead to preterm birth, which is when a baby does not go to full term, but is delivered before 37 weeks. Grace, thank you so much for coming on this morning explaining that to us about your research.

I'm grateful to you for your time. That's Dr. Grace Amador, who is from the University of Cambridge in that study, which has found that black women and the effects and the circumstances in which they're living could actually have a harmful effect on their bodies and therefore cause the higher rates of death to their children in childbirth. Your thoughts and your experience is very much welcome. Of course, you can get in touch with us here. You can text us 84844 or we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Let me just read you this statement because we approach the Department of Health and Social Care for a statement.

We haven't heard back yet, but after a Health and Social Care Committee report on Black maternal health, which was published back in September 2025, the government said, we share the committee's view about the unacceptable of the significant disparities and inequalities experienced by black women and their babies. We need to urgently address the systemic issues behind why so many black women, babies and families are experiencing unacceptable care and are committed to closing the black, Asian and minority minority ethnic maternal mortality gap. We're urgently taking a range of actions to address disparities in maternal outcomes for

black women whilst recognising that there is more to be done. Now, we're going to be talking a little bit later on in the programme about memoirs, why women write them, what the impact of sharing or indeed oversharing can be. So I wanted to bring you some thoughts of the writer Katriona O'Sullivan. We spoke to her just a few weeks ago. Her childhood was marked by extreme poverty, by neglect. addiction and abuse. And she told us why she decided to speak so publicly about her past

and why she continues to write about her life today. We live in a world where every woman I know is trying to shrink themselves. And unfortunately, certain women try to shrink themselves in really harmful ways, like women who are poor or women are traumatised like myself. And I thought I could use my story in a way to talk about some of the really significant issues that women face when it comes to body image. and I've been on a journey with my own body. And yeah, so that's why I decided to write another memoir.

It's okay to be big. You don't need to shrink yourself. It's okay to be big. It's okay to have a big body and a big mouth and a big brain. And like we should be striving for that and encourage that. And if you feel like you need to shrink, listen to me and remember, like, there's space for you. There's space for all of us. We can listen to that interview by searching for the Woman's Out episode from,

April the 16th. That was the writer Katrina O'Sullivan sharing her thoughts with us. So we'll be talking about that a little bit later in the program. But for now, let's turn our attention to the term bouncer. Is it time to retire the word? Because women now make up 20% of door supervisors, as they're officially known. The image it conjures up, is it too macho? Is it too outdated? The idea of calling someone a bouncer? Well, we can speak now to Saty Aray, who is CEO of the International Professional Security Association, who's going to be telling the largest gathering of security professionals in Europe this week that we need to ditch the word bouncer and actually use the word guardian

because it better illustrates what they do to help women on a night out, to help them feel safer. And indeed, it would also help attract more women to the job. We're also going to hear from tea, a female door supervisor at a busy Birmingham bar. Welcome both of you to Women's Hour. Good morning, Chloe. Thanks for having us on. No, thank you so much. Sotilla, let me start with you.

Why does it matter what someone is called when they're a door supervisor, whether it's a bouncer or a guardian? Look, you don't call a police officer, a postman. You know, it just doesn't fit. And Chloe, you know, on a night out, bouncer, in our sector, we have banned this term. We do not use it. It's macho. It's aggressive. It's masculine. When actually, it's disproportionate to the role that the professionals are carrying out on a night out. It is all about de-escalation,

diffusion, communication. And let's face it, women are absolutely superior at that. You know, and, you know, 50,000 women on the front line is about 50,000 DS licensed operatives that are out there that I've done an absolutely cracking job would absolutely say that, look, no. And language matters. When we are trying so hard, we've got about 11% of women that are licensed in the sector. We want to change that, actually. You know, we were at the security event. I was there yesterday, Chloe, honestly, our arenas,

there were only women panels, some women talking from the front line about their experiences, some of their life-saving experiences. and basically the arenas were full. So there's a huge, huge appetite and desire to change this. And actually women that are attending these venue spaces actually agree with what we're saying that actually we have a better not out.

We actually feel safer when we see women on the door. So that's just a little bit about me, but you'll hear it from somebody that works on the doors day in, day out. I'm not just talking that this is actually the right thing and the terminology should fit the role. and the skill set of that operatives on the front line. Well, let's get T's thoughts on this. Do you agree with that, T?

Do you think that your role is more of a guardian? Is that a more appropriate word for what you do? Yeah, I do agree with that. I think when you do security, it's not just keeping everyone safe. You have many customers, especially younger females now that are just touching 18 or getting 19, and not just coming out for a good time. They come out to compensate as well. You find yourself being a therapist halfway three years shift.

So I think it's way more than just being a bouncer. That's interesting. So tell us what you think that women bring to the role that's different to a man, for example. The most basic answer is the feminine energy. We're soft there. We're more nurturing. We have more patience and we're more caring towards certain situations that sometimes men generally just don't understand. Would you agree with that, Satya?

Oh, absolutely. You know, I was at the prodigy concert on Friday. and honestly, the approach, there was a situation that was going to escalate. And, you know, we just, you had a couple of female colleagues that got involved. And you should have seen how it just changed, how the mood and how the approach, the attitude of these individuals. One guy was about six foot seven totally changed. We bring a coolness and a calmness. And actually, 90% of our role, but the data suggests, depending on venues,

suggests that it's through communication, de-escalation and so on. So that disproportionality, that term, balancer is outdated, doesn't exist. We are the difference between a good, holistic, brilliant, and a safe night out for people going out. And look, there'll be call us at Darling and say, actually, we did have individuals. It was aggressive. And actually, our male colleagues and the doors prefer working with their female colleagues

because it brings a balance, a great balance, to the teams and the experiences on a night out for people that are not just a night out but whatever space, everyone they're at an event and et cetera. And don't forget, you know, women are taking this very person. You know, there's a situation up north in Manchester where, you know, a woman was so aggrieved, a daughter came home, she was absolutely devastated how she was treated by male door staff.

That woman went out, got licence and said, Whatever my daughter has experienced will not happen. And now we've got a community of women that are licensed and said, we're not taking this. We're actually going to go and be part of the solution. Yeah, change it, change it. T, I want to bring you in because you talk about the sort of the femininity and the different approach that women have.

Give me specific examples of what you would do. If you are in a situation, maybe particularly with men, maybe they're drunk or certainly they're inebriated to some extent. And it is escalated. what would you do? Talk us through your approach. I can give you a personal experience that happened just the other week. There was two groups, one group of about five, another group of three, all males, different ethnicities, a bit mixture. The group of three was clearly more drunk than a group of five.

So the way I handled it was the calmest ones, you speak to them, you get them to walk away. if you can get one group to go where you can calm down the other group and that's what I did and I was completely honest with them but they're all taller than me they're all bigger than me if there was a kickoff honestly I wouldn't be able to handle it by myself so I told them the truth like if this escalates you're putting me in danger when I'm here to have fun and protect you guys I'm a woman you guys are men I can't take you guys head on

so the best way you can do with this is finish your drinks leave the venue and continue the rest of your night And it worked. Wow. Because do you see a physical deflation in the men? If they're aggressive, if they're squaring up to people. Do you see a physical change in them just through your words? It's very noticeable.

As long as you're calm and collected, you don't meet them at where they're at. They have already started drinking. Men have more ego when it comes to one another. No. If you go with them, they will eventually come down. on your level and the moment you can see that working, you just keep going with it until it's fully stopped. Have you ever been in a situation where you felt physically threatened?

Yes, I have, but you don't show it. As long as you got confidence, who's going to know? Interesting. And have you ever been struck or hurt in working on the doors in Birmingham? No. I actually have never been physically assaulted by a male. what is working on the doors and then again. What do you think, Sotilla, is probably the most tricky situation that you've had to face

and how you've managed to diffuse it? I've got to say it was, you know, a real, again, not, I mean, I don't work at the doors as much as Tia. And so in my experience was probably the concert that I went to on Friday again, where I was supporting the front door staff. And it was, again, similar to what? D-said, which was, you know, this gentleman, a couple of gentlemen, and look, they were towering over us. And what you nailed it, Chloe, it's almost like they saw a woman coming in.

And the gentleman just pointed, listen, I only want to speak to, you know, I just want to speak to her. I'll be all right. I'll be cute and I'm calm. And you de-escalate and you take the parties, you separate the parties. Like T said, one party, you separate, you'd send them. If it, you know, one party we had to send out because it was quite, you know, they were acting and behaving badly and etc and so on.

But what we did to establish all that was listen, talk, separate the parties, take them away and so on. And, you know, it allowed the rest of the people around them to be safe and continue with their night and equally for them to enjoy the rest of their night. People are paying customers. They go there. They're excited. You should see their faces when they come into venues like this and so on.

You know, we're there to help that holistic spinks to continue and so on. But when it does come up, when situations do come up like this, like T said, you separate it. with it. And the training, the behavioural detection training, we could even preempt situations from occurring due to the training that their staff that take, their staff have now in the venues and etc. And so on close. So they are well equipped to do what they need to do. They have radio contact with control rooms and the teams and etc. So it's a holistic communication everywhere that makes it, you know, makes it all work. But that was a real life situation. And I thought,

oh my God, this is going to get out of hand. But actually, when they saw me and another female staff, it de-escalated really swiftly. And you're right. They see a female and they think, actually, oh, hang on. You know, this is a different scenario. Yeah, step back. It's about cool and calmness.

I want to read this message, which has just come in. I passed out at a very hot gig in a basement. And when I came to, I'd landed in a wine glass. My arm was bleeding and I had no idea where I was. I tried to get up and passed out again. When I came to, I was being carried up the stairs by a female bouncer so I could go outside to get some fresh air. She was impressively strong and very kind at a time when I had no idea what was going on.

T, do you think that's something different that women bring to this role, that they're maybe looking out for women more to make sure that their safety is insured on a night out? Yes, 110%. Anywhere I've worked on the doors, especially, they literally call me too nice. You don't have to... Some venues have rules of if you're not paying custom you can't come to the toilet.

I would never refuse a fee. My couple are using the toilet. If they're waiting for their Uber, you are waiting inside until Uber gets here. It doesn't matter. Safe is the most important thing. And as long as I know you're able to continue the rest of your nice safe, that's what that matters.

And what can you do, for example, you know, if you see a woman who's on her own, if it's the early hours, maybe you think that she's had a bit too much to drink, she might be vulnerable. Do you see it as your job to help her get a taxi, or is it very much that you're, you know, you feel that you're just within the venue that you're able to help people? Oh no, it's definitely my responsibility to help you. So I've noticed that there's something wrong with you. Then it is my responsibility. For example, I was working

at a venue. There was a young lady. She had just turned 18. She's been out drinking and somehow she's departed from her friend group. She originally didn't come to me. A family found her and they said it was walking around everywhere and everywhere was just men so they didn't know where to leave her. Luckily, they came across me that also shows it's men in the family that brought her over and they don't even trust other male bounces all the time. So much she came to me, I helped sober up. Once I knew she was sober enough, I allowed her to show me out to unlock her phone so I could find some former family member to get in contact with and that's exactly what I did. I ended up speaking to her mom who booked her an Uber. I walked her to the Uber and I walked her to the Uber

and told her mom to call me so I knew she got him safe and that's what happened. Do you see male bouncer doing that as well? I shouldn't use real bounces. Sorry, door supervisors. I apologize. I've just fallen into that trap. It's fine.

I have seen it, but I do notice they're more sceptical with doing it. And I do understand why, as men, you don't know what people are really like and dealing with drunk females. You don't know what they're like once they become so. So in order to protect themselves, they do their job and nothing more. Let me read you some more of these messages.

Lovely that are coming in. Andrew says, great interview about the female guardians. Women are just better at diffusing situations. We need more of them in positions of power as well. Thanks for the education, says Andrew. And this message is from Maria, from Austria. She says, when I was studying in London, I was one of London's first female bouncers in the 1990s.

It was an incredible experience that shaped my life in a very positive way. And having a woman on the door makes a huge difference to how situations might escalate. I'm still friends with some of my former colleagues from then. Listen, thank you both so much for speaking to us this morning. Really fascinating insight into the world of door security. So I'm really grateful to both of you. T, thank you ever so much for being with us. And also, Sotia Rai, CEO of the International Professional Security Association.

You can keep your thoughts coming on this. Of course, you can text us 84844, or we're at BBC World. Women's Hour on social media. Now, we've heard today that Afghan women footballers will be able to play international matches from as early as June after FIFA have said they will recognise the national team. The players haven't been allowed to play any official competitive internationals since the Taliban returned to power back in 2021. Madhuber Nauruzi is a senior reporter for the BBC Afghan service and is with us now. Good morning. Good morning, too. So first of all, the significance of this move by FIFA.

Just put it into some context for us. Well, it's hugely significant, both symbolically and practically. For years, Afghan women players were effectively excluded from international football because of the political decisions beyond their control. This move by FIFA creates a pathway for exile players to represent their country against. despite the ban on women's sport inside Afghanistan, it has been described as a major step for human rights and gender equality in a sport.

And players themselves say it makes them a symbol of resistance. So why has it taken this long since the Taliban returned to power in 2021 for the Afghan women's team who are clearly in exile being able to play? What's been the delay? Well, I cannot answer that question. Why is the delay? There are lots of politics behind this decision, and it hasn't been easy for FIFA and for the players all this time.

But this decision now that it has been made, it means they can now compete in official international matches with full recognition, Some think they have been denied since 2021. So they will be able to wear the Afghan badge again, take part in FIFA sanctioned competitions and build a proper team structure in exile. FIFA is also supporting them with training camps, selection programs, and development pathway. Crucially, it transformed them from a symbolic or refugee team,

into a recognised national side. So it's very hugely significant and important for these players, despite all the struggles they've had. And for the women who are still in Afghanistan, how much will they know about what is going on with the team? Will that message get back? Because presumably that would be a huge move to inspire them, to give them strength at what is an incredibly difficult time

as a woman living in Afghanistan. Exactly. So just a couple of months ago, I was in Kabul, and I spoke to a group of young women who could not continue their education beyond year six and or the girls who finished year 12 or year 11, and they could not continue their education.

Some of them wanted to be a boxer. Some of them wanted to play football. And I spoke to them and I said, do you follow the Afghan female football team? They said, yeah, we love to know more about them because that's something they cannot do inside Afghanistan and they would love them to shine on an international stage. I know that you were in Afghanistan recently

and you went to a football match. What was that experience like? It was something that I never expected to happen. I went to a stadium where there was this huge match going on, and there were lots of the Taliban officials' prisons, and the stadium full of hundreds of men, but I was the only female reporter there, and they didn't know what to do with me and where to make me sit.

And they were in a state of panic, So a few people were like trying to find somewhere for me to sit down because they were not used to seeing a woman in a stadium like that. And for you personally as an Afghan woman, what does it mean to you to know that the Afghan women's football team can now play international games, just on a personal level? Well, this is important for me as well. And as I said, it's not only symbolic. and they are a symbol of resistance for Afghan women, for every Afghan woman inside Afghanistan and outside and for me as well because I personally went to cover their matches like in 2025 in Dubai.

Unfortunately, I couldn't cover the match because they were not given the visa to come to Dubai. So in the last minute, they had to make a disavis. and go to Morocco to take part in some friendly matches. And I was really disappointed because I couldn't see the team and cover their story and see their faces, how happy they were to take part even in a friendly match. So it is important for every Afghan woman. Mujuba, lovely to speak to you this morning.

Thanks for coming on. That is Mujuba Naurazi, who is senior reporter from the BBC Afghan Service. Now let's turn to the subject of memoirs as Lena Dunham's new book, FamSick, has just debuted at the top of the bestseller charts, both in the UK and in the US. It covers her rise to fame as the creator and star of the hit HBO series Girls back in the 2010s, as she spent her 20s juggling her newfound celebrity with regular trips to hospital to treat a chronic pain disorder. Well, throughout her career, she's been both celebrated and criticised for oversharing.

So just how tricky is it for women's stories to navigate that line between emotional honesty, oversharing and, of course, self-protection? Well, let's discuss this with the best-selling author Kathy Retson Brink, whose memoirs include, amongst others, the last act of love. And also here with us in the woman's house studio, Sarah Gronyuma, who is a book reviewer and founder of at What Sarah Read Next. Thank you both for being with us this morning. Good to speak to you. Kathy, talk to us about your thoughts on FAMSIC, first of all. Before we look at the sort of wider issues that are brought up by this book, I mean, Lena Dunham quickly gained a reputation as a voice of a generation.

She's been quite a controversial figure, as I alluded to. You've read this book. What are your thoughts about what she says about her voice and indeed how it resonates with you? I thought it was a completely riveting book. I was absolutely transfixed by it. And I could see she was, I could just feel this honesty in it, actually, in the voice, that she's trying to communicate honestly.

It also felt a bit like a kind of a modern Alice in Wonderland. So she's always put herself into her work. So as she writes about the way that she put herself into girls and then kind of delivers this commentary or like behind the scenes on what was actually. happening in some of those famous scenes. Kind of felt like I was tumbling down various Leonard Dunham-shaped rabbit holes, and as she's narrating this experience for us.

So, I mean, I think it's a really good book. I absolutely understand why everybody wants to read it. And I think it's a really sort of searingly honest attempt to make sense of her experience. Sarah, what did you think about it? I mean, I noticed that Lena has said of her own struggles. I wish I had a book I could turn to that help me feel seen. In some ways, does this book kind of do that job? Oh, absolutely, Chloe.

Also, good morning. Thank you so much for having me in. Hello, Kathy. Hello. Hi. I thought it was a fantastic memoir, great memoir, brilliant writer. It is Lynne Dunham. So she's going to put it all out there.

And I think she's very brave to put it out, given all the criticisms she's had in the past. I think she said in interviews, Lina wanted to tell her own story back to herself. and also set the record straight to the person who got really confused as to what her narrative was and what the narrative is. I'm interested that you said she put it all out there because she's been accused her whole career of oversharing. For you, what do you think oversharing means then I'll get Cathy's view on it? Wow.

I'm sorry. No, go on, go on, Cathy. Go on, Cathy, you go first because it sounds like Sarah wants to have a think. So you go first, Cathy. What I was thinking was the judgment of whether something is oversharing is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? It's a criticism of itself. So from the writer or the maker's perspective, I think when you're making work that is in any way drawn from yourself, which actually I think all creative work probably is, you're always doing this reckoning with yourself. What can I say? Often actually, I think, because of the other people in the story, possibly rather than yourself. That's certainly where I come up against barriers. It's because of. because of the other people in my life. I don't think just because you're a writer,

you necessarily should just sort of spill your ink, spill your ink with gay abandon and not think about the real people in your life. So that's what you do as a maker. But I think the judgment of whether you've not, whether or not you've overshared and being accused of it, it's just something other people do. And I think that probably someone as successful as her,

sadly, or it seems like she was sort of destined to be on the receiving end of loads of people, people saying what's the point of her? Loads of people just being furious that a really young woman gets loads of money and fame and then wants to criticise her for it. Yeah, I agree. And I think as women, you know, as a society, it's like, oh, you don't air all your stuff on the, you know, don't tell everyone everything.

We're sort of like boxed in it's like you're not supposed to share. But I think back to the book, the Red Tent, for example, women, you know, every month when administrating and having babies, we would gather, they would gather, wouldn't they, and talk. And that's where they shared. and that's where you learn knowledge. And I think when it comes to memoirs, I think that's what you're trying to do as a writer

is to share your story in the hope that it lands in the right hands and helps someone. It might be going through the same thing. And I'm interested because you're writing a book at the moment, aren't you? Am I writing thinking that it started as a memoir, but you were actually advised to turn it into fiction?

Because you're writing about an incredibly painful part of your life. That's correct. So I'm in really, really early stages. I've got this amazing agent, Abby Fellows, his handholding, through the whole experience. Nine years ago, I lost twins at 12 weeks, my husband and my brother within a year.

And initially I thought, well, you know, I want to write my story and help someone. But I was actually a fellow author friend of mine who just came off the back of a book tour where she'd shared her grief story and she said, Sarah, don't do it. I think she felt going out there every day and every night and talking about her story felt quite,

it was just a bit too much because everyone's asking you questions and there's lots of sort of press and so I've decided to write an auto fiction and you know when it will happen that year Chloe and Kathy there were books that I read Joan Didyans the Year in Magical Thinking

Abbey Morgan's This Is Not a Pity Memoir and recently Hannah Ritchell's book A Notion in a Day which is out in August and Hannah writes up These are books they're about grief And people have gone through the same experience And what I'd like to do is, I mean, while it's auto fiction, it's a lived experience, I hope that people will take a lot from what they're going to read.

Kathy, you've written about grief as well, haven't you, in your own grief? Yeah, I wrote a book about the long death of my brother. I'm interested in the advice given to Sarah because I can completely see it on the one hand. You know, it's just, it is such an exposing thing to do to write about yourself. But equally, I don't know, there's actually actually. Actually, also, it's quite complex, turning yourself into fiction as well. And I think that's something that, again, I think FAMSick does this so well, because there's periods where she starts disassociating.

And I definitely, you know, there are times when I sort of think, like, oh, I've said things about myself in various places. And I'm actually, I think this is a really helpful rule. I'm always honest and I don't tell lies. I'm so glad about that, because actually, if I hadn't done that, I think I'd feel even madder. But then sometimes I put stuff into fiction. Later on, I can't quite remember the extent to which I was making it up or not making it up. I'm getting really confused now and slightly, because when I thought something through, you know, to write, I think to write fiction properly, certainly the only way I can do it.

I really have to be in that person's body looking at it through their eyes. Then I just get a bit confused about whether or not, like, did that happen to me or not? So, and obviously, this is me in quite a small way with very, very modest amounts of, like, writer fame, which compared to Lenham Dunham is nothing. So to see how she's always been using herself in her art and often at a tiny remove, one of the things this book does is shows you the extent to which she was putting her life into her art,

including kind of like really horrible, sort of shaming sexual experiences, not the relationships with people. It's a great, it does feel like it's a service. I mean, I feel it's a cautionary tale. Sarah, it didn't make me want to be famous, did it you? Absolutely not. But you know what, Cathy?

I mean, like me, I think you're an overshare. I mean, I'm just an overshare. It's so hard to not be, isn't it? And while I'm sort of early doors writing my book, I mean, obviously there's like name changes to, you know, protect my loved ones. It's actually quite fun because there's this sort of like artistic license that you can have and space where you can really play around with the plots and the themes. And, I mean, I can't give too much away,

but there are scenes that I'm writing that I'm sort of turning sadness around on its head and making it quite fun. What does that mean when you are sharing so much, and this is to both of you, about how it's greeted? And do you think the way that people respond to female memoirs compared to men's, for example, or judged differently? What do you think? Absolutely. I mean, I think, for example, you know, Lily Allen wrote my thoughts exactly, for example. And, you know, she's obviously, should probably be another good example of a woman who's, you know, totally taken apart by the,

the press and society. Now, imagine if the Gallagher brothers had written a memoir. I mean, they would be celebrated, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? What do you think, Kathy? Yeah, I think that's probably true. So I think I've been thinking about this women and men writing memoirs and the difference. I think the

difference probably is in the reception how you get treated. And then what that would mean to you, like how vulnerable you are to start with and then what it feels like to be and I definitely feel like so I sort of live my life largely offline

and I kind of have to because I don't think I'd stay sane if I was, for example, looking at what people, what strangers thought of me? I wouldn't, I just kind of... So, Cathy, are you saying you think women are scrutinised more than men?

I mean, I'd say so. I think that, I mean, I think that's probably like... It's the historical pattern, isn't it? Probably, I mean, probably, I feel that everything, I think everything about this is kind of shifting. So there's probably in a way, never been a better time, except

I do think actually the internet and the way that, I think it used to be that people had to go to quite a lot of effort to tell you that they thought you were pointless or useless. Or in Leonard Dunham case, as she details, all these strangers on the internet telling her that she's fat and ugly. I know, awful. I think she sort of seems to realise as well that she's, you know, as a person, she's looking for, she's sort of almost like,

can't quite believe her luck or see what people see in her. And she goes looking for, she goes, she's like in this abusive relationship. with the internet and she just finds a lot of people who are quite willing to kind of like pile into her and I think that's definitely a it feels to me it's a modern life thing and I often I often have sort of had this fantasy because I'm obsessed with Agatha Christie and Virginia Woolf and I often think like what was life like then when you couldn't you know there wasn't you didn't get emails about stuff there wasn't the possibility of reading your Amazon reviews you didn't have to self-discipline about whether or not you googled yourself which again hide your phone right about a lot but should I And again, absolutely. And I kind of, most of my feeling reading through if she was my friend was, I just wanted to say to her, get off your phone. Get off your phone. Give me your phone and let's just go sit in my garden.

Hide it in a drawer and walk away. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the reasons actually why this book is so relatable, even though in some ways, you know, vast fame, vast wealth, vast successes. I think a lot of her challenges can be experienced by anybody now with a social media account. I think it's true. People struggle, don't they? And social media is guilty of so many things. Listen, Kathy, thank you so much for speaking to us. Kathy, Rentsen Brink there and also Sarah Gwonyama as well. Joining us today on Women's Hour, do make sure you join us tomorrow at 10. Anita will be here to keep your company. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Do join us again next time. I told my dad, stop immediately. This is a scam. Scam secrets with me, Shari Val. He had actually paid £209,000. to the scammers. Each week, we expose a different scam in detail

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