Woman's Hour - Media reporting on rape cases, Women in the Sudan conflict, What's the alternative to dating apps?

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

What is best practice for journalists when it comes to reporting on rape cases? Why does the way it's reported matter and what sort of a difference can considered reporting make? The End Violence Against Women Coalition (EVAW) with academic Alessia Tranchese are launching a new resource addressing responsible reporting on rape, based on analysis of 12 years’ coverage in the British press. With two most recent examples of Gisele Pelicot in France and the ex-employees of Mohamed Al-Fayed in mind, journalist Yvonne Roberts and CEO of EVAW Andrea Simons join Anita Rani to discuss.The war in Sudan began in April last year and shows no signs of ending. It has claimed thousands of lives, displaced millions of people and plunged parts of the country into famine. Laila Baker from the United Nations’ agency for sexual and reproductive health and rights joins us to talk to us about the situation for women on the ground in Sudan.It's officially the start of cuffing season. That time of the year where you want to stay home, under a blanket, with a takeaway and someone you love. But how are people looking for partners nowadays? Are we over dating apps and looking to return to meeting people in real life? Anita is joined by Olivia Petter, author or Millenial Love, and Oenone Fobart, co-host of the Everything is Content podcast.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. It's cuffing season. This runs from October to around Valentine's Day apparently. It's when people want to hook up and hunker down with someone. So we're discussing how you meet your special someone on the programme today. The dating apps, are they done?

Are people craving real-life meetings, something more meaningful? I would like to hear from you this morning about how you met your partner. Your meet-cute story, if you like. Was it on a train? Out walking your dogs? Did you find yourself stuck in a lift? Was it online? Maybe it was your 50th date from an app. And just as you were about to lose the will to go on, there she or he was, all glowing and gorgeous. Let's hear about your love story this morning. It might be cuffing season. It's also cough and cold season. So please forgive

my slightly bunged up voice. Get in touch with us in the usual way you can text the program on 84844 you can also email me by going to our website you can also whatsapp me on 03700100444 and if you'd like to get in touch with us via social media or follow us it's at bbc women's hour also on the program we'll be discussing the situation for women in Sudan and the importance of language in the media when it comes to reporting on rape. Your thoughts and opinions welcome on anything you hear on the programme. That text number, once again, 84844. But first, it's been reported today that Alice Webb, who was only 33, died at Gloucestershire Royal Hospital in the early hours of Tuesday after falling unwell, having undergone what is believed to be a non-surgical Brazilian butt lift or BBL.

Two people have been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and Gloucestershire police say an investigation led by the major crime team is ongoing. Well I'm joined by the president of the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons Mark Pacifico and Ashton Collins who runs Save Face, a national register of accredited practitioners who offer non-surgical cosmetic treatments. Morning to both of you, welcome to Woman's Hour. Mark I'll come to you first. I mean, we don't know the details of how Alice Webb died, but how did you respond when you heard about her death? Good morning. I was very saddened, and all of our thoughts go out to her family.

But unfortunately, not surprised, the lack of regulation, the Wild West that exists in this sector in the uk meant it was only a matter of time before we expected something like this to happen um it wasn't a surgical procedure but for those of you people who don't know what exactly is a brazilian butt lift well it's a term unfortunately uh poorly coined because it was not Brazil and it's not a lift. But the surgical procedure it's referring to is liposucking fat from one part of the body and using that fat as a graft, in this case, to enhance the buttocks. So it's buttock enhancement and enlargement using fat. And that's something, ironically, I was talking to one of your colleagues almost two years to the day on this very programme about our latest safety guidelines for these surgical procedures. But unfortunately, no guidelines or regulation exists for non-surgical similar procedures in this country.

Ashton, I'm going to bring you in. Is it the Wild West? Yeah, unfortunately, especially surrounding dermal filler procedures which is what this this was yet it is anybody can do these treatments from anywhere which is why you know these sorts of things happen tell us about safe face why did you set it up i was looking for a treatment provider 10 years ago i worked in accreditation sectors in in health and safety and occupational health and had a lot of experience in that and expected there to be something similar for these sorts of procedures and the more research I did the more horrified I became you know the horror story upon horror story and I stumbled across the Keir review which exposed just how unregulated these procedures are and how unprotected

people who have them go wrong are and they have no access to redress which is why I set up the register 10 years ago. How popular is the non-surgical Brazilian butt lift? Extremely so we've supported over 500 women who have had disastrous experiences 50% of them have been hospitalized with sepsis 39% of them have needed corrective surgery, have been left unable to walk for several weeks, needed daily district nurse care to change wound dressings. These are incredibly risky procedures. Why do women want to get one? Or is it just women? No, it isn't just women. We have had one gentleman that had a procedure go wrong as well. I think social media is to blame for how popularized these procedures have come. And I think how trivialized they are. They're advertised on social media as

being risk-free, cheaper alternative to the surgical procedure that Mark just described there. And that could not be further from the truth. They are very dangerous, being carried out mostly by lay people in unsterile and clinical environments, often using unlicensed products. And all of three of those things are just an absolute recipe for disaster. I think, Mark, BBLs might not be on everyone's radar, but certainly what Ashton just mentioned there, fillers are, and non-surgical procedures.

So I think I'd like you to explain exactly what they are a bit more, if you could. What are we talking about? What comes under non-surgical procedures. So I think I'd like you to explain exactly what they are a bit more, if you could. What are we talking about? What comes under non-surgical? Non-surgical really is a very broad brush term. And in this case, it's really referring to substances that are injected. And bizarrely, in the UK, these are not classed as medicines, so they don't have to be prescribed. They are classed as devices. And that's one of the biggest loopholes we have in the country. And that's why anyone and everyone could have access to get a hold of them. And there is no regulation in who can use them. And they're incredibly risky because these procedures carry risks themselves, as Ashton alluded to. So, infective risks, particularly in untrained hands, can be rife. There can be bleeding risks, there can be deformities, there can be nerve

damage and other things that probably many aren't aware of. Many of these products contain medicine, they contain local anaesthetic and whilst I have no details of Alice Webb's case, one consideration is if a large volume of filler was used there is a risk of local anaesthetic toxicity, so a poisoning dose of local anaesthetic in untrained hands. What are the substances? I mean, you've mentioned something there, but what else is going into people? So the most popular substance is called hyaluronic acid, which is a synthetic compound based on something that is a biological substance we all have in us. But there are other products used that are considered more permanent. There are various carbohydrates, sugar-based treatments,

and also calcium-based treatments, which are designed to have different properties, last different lengths of time. But any one of them, doesn't matter what it is, carries risk. What are those risks? Well, the main risks really refer to vascular damage if you have an injury to a blood vessel that can cause blindness, that can cause skin death, that can cause death, infections, really significant irregularities and deformities

as well as of course the risks, which are not the medical risks, but when people start to look incredibly alienized. Ashton, your organization supports people who've had bad experiences of these non-surgical procedures. Before we talk about them more generally, let's talk about the major issues facing people who've had what we were talking about at the beginning, the non-surgical Brazilian butt lift yeah i mean i can't put into words how catastrophic people's experiences with these procedures actually are we've supported women who um like i said have had sepsis have been told young women with young children being told that they have 20 minutes to live unless

they go immediate um surgery corrective surgery to remove abscesses. They're in septic shock. We had one lady who went into cardiac arrest on the way to hospital in the ambulance. She had kidney failure, was placed in an induced coma. Her life has been significantly impacted. She's been left unable to work, she's suffering from PTSD. I cannot articulate strongly enough how impactful these treatments are on both physical and mental health. It's devastating. Can they be done safely, Mark? They can be done safely. We are imminently releasing some guidelines on this, but one of the factors that we've found to be incredibly important is not only should these be ideally undertaken by surgeons

not just doctors because of the particularly in the buttocks the complex anatomy and the risks here but clearly they need to be undertaken in proper medical premises cqc premises under appropriate sterility and conditions every procedure carries risk even by the most experienced practitioner most experienced doctor or surgeon and the risk is magnified when unqualified people are undertaking these procedures but sadly probably the biggest driver of course is finance because i'm sure that the costs pay to a non qualified non-medical practitioner a fraction of what they should be and what it would cost to do it properly. Your organisation, Aston, you've been campaigning to have this procedure,

this particular procedure banned. What do you hope will happen now? We hope that the government will, you know, it's sad that it's come to this, but we hope that this tragic event will make the government sit up and take notice. I think it needs to be prioritised because this will not be an isolated incident. More will follow. Like I said, a lot of the people that we've already dealt with have been lucky to escape death and still be alive. And they almost certainly would have done if they hadn't taken themselves off to A&E and the government really need to act fast on this because it is absolutely a crisis waiting to happen. How does the UK compare with other European countries Mark in terms of regulation?

We're known as the wild west we are the most outlying country I was recently a week ago at a European plastic surgery meeting where we had a meeting of all the presidents of our appropriate associations. And in some countries, just across the channel, Belgium, you have to be a dermatologist or plastic surgeon to use these. Even other doctors can't use them. So we're at one end of the spectrum, they're at another. But we are viewed as a sort of a peculiarity because on the one hand we are incredibly regulated when we do things properly when we do things under the guidance of the CQC we are probably one of the most regulated medical environments in the world however there's this contradiction that when people aren't in the

fold so to speak they can get away with anything. And your association, the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, you are campaigning, you've been working with the Joint Committee of Cosmetic Practitioners to produce guidance. How long before that's ready? What are you saying? And is it enough? So the guidance we're producing

is to try and close that loophole. There's this bizarre situation that if someone is not registered and regulated by the CQC, the CQC have no authority to regulate them. And therefore, we have to resort to the environmental health laws. So we and the JCCP have been drawing up guidelines which are imminently about to be released. In fact, they're about to be released to the environmental health teams within the next week or so. So this is incredibly timely to guide environmental health officers on what is and isn't appropriate, who should and shouldn't be doing what, and safety aspects. Because sadly, environmental health officers really don't have the background and

training to ascertain these sorts of medical procedures that are being carried out in non-medical environments. So I'm hoping, just as Ashton says, sadly it's come too late for Alice, but hopefully this is going to catalyse finally the government into taking some action and listening to us. Ashton, what do you think? Yeah, I think the government really need to look at this as a priority. I think, you know, if they're not going to do anything about the wider industry, then at least they need to tackle these high risk procedures,

because now we're in a situation that not only are we seeing people doing these sorts of procedures, but we're seeing lay people perform liposuction procedures, blepharoplasty procedures, and it really needs curtailing. It's outrageous. Thank you both for joining me to speak about this. Mark Pacifico and Ashton Collins. 84844 is the number to text if you have an experience that you'd like to share with us. We have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They said, our sympathies are with Ms Webb's family and friends in this tragic case.

This is a live police investigation, so it would be inappropriate to comment on the specific case. However, the safety of patients is paramount and we would urge anyone considering a cosmetic procedure to consider the possible health impacts and find a reputable, insured and qualified practitioner. We're exploring options around regulatory oversight of the non-surgical cosmetics sector and we'll provide an update in due course and when they provide one I'm sure we will be discussing it here on Woman's Hour. Now yesterday we heard from the charity Women for Women International who've released a report highlighting the experiences of women in conflict zones around the world. More than 600 million women are currently living through war. And globally, we're experiencing the highest number of violent conflicts since 1945. And Lebanon,

Israel, of course, is dominating headlines right now as the newest theatre of war. But one country that hasn't been talked about as much recently is Sudan. The war there began in April last year and shows no sign of ending. It has claimed thousands of lives, displaced millions of people and plunged parts of the country into famine. A report out today from Doctors Without Borders say that pregnant women and children are dying in shocking numbers in South Darfur in Sudan. To discuss this, I'm joined by Nawal Al-Meghafi, BBC correspondent in Sudan, and Leila Bakir from United Nations Agency for Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights. Nawal and Leila, you have both recently been in Sudan. Nawal, I'm going to come to you first. Remind us what the

conflict is there. Just what's happening? So it's been for over a year now. And what happened to us last year, the Sudan civil war began around April. And it's when the army, the Sudanese armed forces and the former paramilitary allies, sorry, the rapid support forces began this vicious struggle for power against each other. And they were actually former allies. But now that's been fueled by regional players. You know, the rapid support forces are said to be funded and armed by the UAE and the Sudanese armed forces by Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And so it's just

become this vicious war. But really, you know, we've seen thousands of people killed, hundreds of thousands displaced. It's just had such a huge impact on the people of Sudan. It's devastating to see. And it has no signs of ending, you know. Yeah, what's happened in the aftermath has been truly devastating. And you've seen it firsthand. So what are the conditions like for women out there?

What did you see? It's been absolutely like almost impossible to get into Sudan. There's been very little reporting on there. And we were very lucky to be invited by the UN Deputy Secretary General Amina Mohammed. She was going on a trip. So it was quite a quick trip. We went to Port Sudan, which is now the de facto capital of Sudan. And we also went to Adre in Chad, which borders Sudan. And really, what I saw was utter devastation. Before going, you know, we do a lot of reading before we go on the trips and you read the numbers. This is one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. Women are really at the heart of it. 53% of the millions displaced are women. And then you read about the maternal health,

the malnutrition, the starvation, one area being declared a famine. But it's only until you go there and you meet the people, and you know, that's what we try to do in this job, that it really comes to life. You know, you start to meet people that you can really relate to that have the same hopes and dreams for their children as you do for your own. And so I really came out of that trip just heartbroken for the women there. I went to this one refugee camp in Port Sudan. And the woman that gave us a tour, this refugee, this woman that works for the UN, she was like, you know, the people you're going to meet here, they're the lucky ones. And I met, and I met, you know, and I hate that term in war when they say

the lucky ones. I said, why the lucky ones? She's like, because these people, they're receiving help with us in this IDP camp. But if you were able to get to Darfur, which we weren't able to get to, we aren't able to access those people. And, you know, I met women in this IDP camp, the so-called lucky ones, that couldn't breastfeed their own children because they're so malnourished themselves. And I think that's one of the most heartbreaking things to watch as a mother. But for me, the thing that struck me the most, I would say, is the brutality, what they had to go through in those journeys to get to places like Port Sudan and Adre. You know, I've covered lots of war zones and I've spoken to women in war zones. But Sudan, what made it so significant to me was the gender based violence.

I just found it absolutely horrific. We will come back to that. I'm just going to bring Leila in on this. Leila, you were also in Sudan earlier this month and you visited a maternity hospital. Doctors Without Borders has said the number of maternal deaths in just two of the hospitals that they support made up 7% of all the maternal deaths at their facilities across the world last year in 2023. And a screening of children for malnutrition found rates well beyond emergency thresholds. Does that chime with your experience and what you saw? Yes, exact figures are very difficult to determine in the circumstances that

I think Noam described very accurately. This is an ongoing conflict and war where people have had tremendously difficult and horrendous journeys, physically difficult for them. And imagine that you are also a pregnant woman. So in the face of famine, the difficulty of the journey, the lack of water and hygiene,

it's expected that you're going to have complications. And I think all too often, we think of childbirth as something natural. And that's a wonderful thing, but it should be a moment of joy. For those women, 7% or however many it is, they have been usurped and stripped of the right to have that joy of bringing in new life. In UNFPA's opinion, we are adamant that no woman should die bringing life into this world. And so we're doing everything possible to provide services, at least to the women that we have access to. What were the stories that you heard, Noelle? What were women telling you? So there was this one woman in the Adre, in the Chad-Sudan border. And what you see is in this border is dozens of people coming in every day

that have made this treacherous journey out of Sudan. And the first thing they do with their children, and they have their children in their back, some of them, by the time they arrive, their kids are lifeless because of the journey, because they've had no food or water for days on end. But the first thing they do is run and they fall to their knees in front of this water tank that's been set up by the UN because they are so thirsty. They haven't had water in days. And I met this woman.

And these are the women that have survived. And these are the women that have survived. And like Leila said, you know, some of these women have had to give birth on this journey. We met one woman that did and was very lucky to survive with her son. So I met this woman. They come and they have absolutely nothing with all their children. And then I asked her, you know, what are your memories of Sudan?

She was like that my kids were doing so well at school. My son, this one, he was top of his class. And then she stopped for a moment and she said, but now, you know, we have nothing. There was no point. All that studying, there was no point. It was, you know, it was really hard to hear. And then we went to this IDP camp and there was a, you know, they took us into this tent and there was a circle of women, around a dozen women with their children. And all of these women had been sexually abused. So I zoned into this one woman who had a son called Saif. And that's the same name as my son, Saif. And I was like, oh, you know, our sons have the same name. And then I thought, so what's your story? And she said that as she was leaving Sudan, she was captured by the RSF, taken to a cell. They took her son away from her to an opposite cell. And he was wailing because he was so afraid. And then she said, you know, but the as you know, she was being raped in the

cell that she was in. And she said, what I would do is I would focus on my son's cry as that was happening to me so I could zone out of what was going on. And, you know, you always want to say something consoling when someone says something to you. But I was utterly speechless. And, you know, you always want to say something consoling when someone says something to you, but I was utterly speechless. I had nothing to say after hearing these women's stories because they were so heartbreaking. And it was just story after story like that of loss, just being rooted from their homes. What can you say when they're going through a living hell? Exactly.

There are no words, really. Leila, I'd like to understand your role. I mean, you're the regional director for the UN Agency for Reproductive Health and Rights. What does that mean in a war zone? Well, war zone or otherwise, UNFPA stands for zero tolerance for any sexual violence. Let me make that clear. We stand for ending sexual violence, whether it is used as a tactic in war or whether it's perpetuated under more stable concerns.

In the specific situation of Sudan, I also had the chance to visit a women's and girls safe space, which is one of the ways that we respond to the needs of women and girls who've been displaced by conflict. And women were very open in telling their stories. You know, as a woman myself, it does make it easier to communicate. So even though I speak a different dialect of Arabic, they were opening up and so forth. And one woman was trying to tell her story. She was 20 years old and her voice cracked. She had no voice. So I gently sat her down next to me and I said, is there something you want to say? And she whispered into my ear and said, I was raped. Those were the only words that she uttered. So I looked at her and I said,

you're not alone. And she started to cry. When she told me her story very quietly, I think what hurt me most, and I can identify with as a woman myself, is that not only was she not lucky in the sense of their overall fate, but the fact that there is now some respite for a person who has been badly hurt and damaged, where she can go, she can voice her concerns, she can find the medical care that she needs and hopefully start to rebuild her life. I think that's what UNFP and our partners are trying to do. And you know, just to add to what Leila was saying, you know, beyond that as well, after this has happened to them, they're shunned by their families, they're shunned by the entire community, because of culture. And so it's so brave of them to be able to share these stories with us. But that's it for them, you know, this IDP camp. And what I realized after speaking to the dozen women that have shared their stories in that tent is whenever I spoke to others about their journey, they really didn't want to go into detail. And it made me realize how prevalent this is. But some women are too afraid to share. Well, you mentioned that they can't share it with their families. We heard yesterday that one of women's primary concerns,

and this is for both of you, in war zones, was violence within their own home. Is that something either of you have heard about? Leila? I mean, many people have lost their homes. So where your home is, I think, is very relevant right now. Again, whether you're at home or you're in the public sphere, zero tolerance for violence is something that we need to really bring home. And I think

all too often it is thought of as a very private conversation. What we're trying to do is to say there is no shame on the person who has been exposed to it. And this is where our efforts, whether it's UNFPA or our partners or everyone who's trying to get this message across is that it is not the woman who is at fault. It is not the person who's been exposed to it. Because it's not only a cultural thing, it strips you of your confidence, it strips you of your own ability on your judgment. And I think reasserting that and bringing that back for the woman is something that's really primary I really appreciate the fact that the radio program right now was trying to get that message across in addition to the services that we give it's just layers and

layers isn't it first of all it's the violence uh then it's the shit it's being shunned by your family the shame as you've just mentioned they, stripping you of your dignity, you know, absolutely crushes you. And on top of that, you don't have a home, you're in a war zone. Whilst you were in Sudan in a while, the UN Deputy Secretary General Amina Mohammed, you were out there with her, said there is fatigue because there are so many different crises around the world, but that's just not good enough. What can be done about that fatigue? That's a really difficult question because there are so many crises happening around the world right now that it's, you know, it's just really difficult to focus on each and every one. And unfortunately, excuse me, even when we're able to report on these crises, I do find our audiences have become quite overwhelmed with all the tragedy around the world. What I would say is that people need to pay more attention to what's happening in Sudan,

we need to start calling out different players that aren't allowing journalists to go in, whether it's Sudan, whether it's Gaza, whether you know, different conflicts around the world, we need to be shining a light on the human stories that are coming from there because they don't feel heard. They feel like they're being ignored. So yeah, I think there needs to be more work done on that. And same question to you, Layla. Yeah, I mean, look, if you think about it, war cripples the outside of the country, the infrastructure, people's homes and so forth. But sexual violence cripples women from the inside. And so one, there has to be zero tolerance for this, bringing greater investigation into it and justice for those people who've been exposed

and no impunity. But we need to have a ceasefire. It's not just about trying to respond to all of these crises and how many there are. One, to bring focus to those women. It's not just about trying to respond to all of these crises and how many there are. One, to bring focus to those women. They're not just numbers. They are at the heart of this. And two, to recognize them not just as survivors or people who have been exposed to this as damaged goods. No, they are also agents of their own change. And so what we can do to bring that voice and bring them back into that realm, I think is critical for us. Thank you both for joining me to speak about that this morning, Nawal Al-Meghafi and Leila Bakir. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard, you can visit the BBC Actionline website for resources and support. That text number is 84844. No, it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, I started the programme by asking you to tell me about how you met your partner, because it's cuffing season. Apparently, this is when people want to hook up with people, to hunker down as the knights draw in. So I'm going to read a couple of your messages out.

I met my husband, Ben, on X when it was Twitter in August 2019. We had a mutual friend who tweeted and in responding to her tweet, I accidentally CC'd him. He responded to me using the Forrest Gump waving gif and we've spoken every day since. We went on our first real life date in February 2020. This is so modern. But lockdown meant our next several dates were on Zoom. So modern. Then he moved into my flat. We got married in 2021 and our daughter was born in November last year. It's been a whirlwind and it's in the best possible way. And I still thank our mutual friend. We like that. A nice uplifting story. So, as I said, Strictly's back. The temperatures have dropped.

I've got my knitwear on and my thermals. It's official. The start of cuffing season. That time of year when you just want to stay home under a blanket with a takeaway in a film with someone you love. Cuff-in season is defined as that period of time when single people seek partners to spend time with now that it's getting colder. But how are people looking for partners nowadays? Where do you meet your special person? Is it in real life? Is it on an app? Well, Olivia Petter, author of Millennial Love, and Ononi Forbat, sorry Ononi, co-host of the Everything Is content podcast are here in the studio. IRL, in real life. Love it. I'm going to start by saying, am I the only person that has a little bit of a problem with the word cuffing season?

It gives me the ick. I think it's quite cute. Do you? I don't know why. It makes me think of like big fur coats and being really cosy. Oh, that's because you're thinking of cuffs. Yeah, maybe. I'm thinking of like, you know, being attached to something.

Handcuffed. Handcuffed. It's a little bit, it's got a sense of entrapment a little bit. You're like, you're cuffed to someone. Yeah. You're kind of stuck with someone. And I sort of feel like women, it's almost like, oh, there's a woman who's just like wants to go and grab her man.

And I'm like, oh, hang on, we're beyond that now, aren't we? Anyway, let's get on to this. Olivia, you're single, you're on apps. How's it going? Well, I've always said that dating apps can work for people. For me, I'm single. I've never met anyone that I've been in a relationship with on a dating app. The people I've been in relationships with I've met in real life.

I think apps can work and do work. But if they do work, then you are one of the lucky ones because I think the system is kind of rigged against you. Wow. And for lots of reasons, I think essentially dating apps have turned the dating experience into a game because a lot of people use them quite mindlessly. You're sitting there kind of swiping through different people,

making decisions based on very superficial things like someone's height, someone's star sign, what someone does for a living, a few curated photos they've had, a witty shower thought someone once had, you know, that's a prompt that people put on their dating profiles. And we don't take it very seriously. And I think because of that, we don't take the people that we start talking to on them very seriously. And as a result, we kind of dehumanize the dating experience. And you know, we will talk to one person, find them a bit boring

stop replying to them start talking to someone else we'll meet someone not really be that interested find someone else we don't take it as seriously as we would if we met these people in real life because there aren't really consequences because we often don't know these people just part of our throwaway culture it's a bit like fast fashion honestly i think that's how it's kind of become I thought these uh um dating apps helped you meet someone more compatible and only the sorry that's the point they kind of filter out based on the criteria the most compatible thing is actually really funny because Olivia and I know each other randomly we went to school did you meet on an app

no we've actually known each other forever and we often send each other our most compatible on hinge because it's always like the least compatible person i've ever experienced just like someone that i would just generally probably not find very attractive has very different views from me just complete opposite and every day here's your most compatible and i'm like livy why but um i think they can be amazing because the problem is no one's really going out and doing stuff anymore and we are living in a cost of living crisis and there's still this like hangover from covid so i do think people are sort of like inside a lot more and you don't seem to see many like single hot people out in the wild so you do have to go online but there is like a language to these dating apps as well that like livy said it kind of puts a barrier

between you and this person because we have all these random things we're judging them on and actually if you met them in the pub you might find them really attractive and you wouldn't have all this information. So we're just basing things off really random things. That being said, I did have a really nice relationship, which ended not that long ago, with a man that I met on Hinge. And maybe that was luck. But I do think you can find love on them,

but it is also a bit like a full-time job. Are you cuffed at the minute, Anoni? Not cuffed, un-cuffed. Okay. So what's the plan how how do you go about this is that is there do you think there is a general sense of app fatigue then definitely I think dating app burnout is something that people have been talking about for a couple of years now because I think there is just a sense that it's so arduous to to go on these dates with people who you know might look totally different to how they look on their photos on their profile you might have a real spark with someone in conversation online and then meet them in real life and realize that there's nothing

between you because I think everything I was talking about earlier like it informs this dating process which is just very kind of superficial and has a total lack of the verisimilitude that makes dating so fun and magical. And, you know, you're not able to read someone's body language on an app. You're not able to hear their voice, really, unless they have voice prompts, which I know that some dating apps have introduced. But that's not the same as talking to someone in real life. Is this a generational thing?

I mean, you're both young. So, you know, you are kind of this is part of your world. I'm just thinking of older people who maybe have stepped out of a marriage. You might, you know, whatever, and it's not their world. It used to be that you'd just go to a bar or a restaurant or meet somebody based on the hobbies that you did. What are you all up to? Nothing.

I think more and more people are wanting to meet people in real life. Like Livvy said, there's a real fatigue. We're in a weird generation where I remember it came out when we were at uni like tinder kind of the dating apps you need you should all be out aren't you all out we were out at uni I used to sit around a table I lived with seven girls and we just swipe for fun or match the same guy and see if they sent us the same message and then just go out we wouldn't actually I was going to say rather than going out just be in the pub but or wherever that was just because it was such a new thing and it was funny and it was interesting. And then I had a really long relationship for almost like five years.

So I had never gone on dating apps. And then when I had this breakup, for me, because I hadn't been doing it for years, I thought I was having the time of my life because I'd never really dated and it was really fun. But something you do have to do with apps is I think you cannot speak. You have to basically match, say, do you want to go on a date and meet immediately I think if you if you speak really well like over text generally you're not going to find them attractive it's just something really weird about if they get on text they've probably got terrible chat in real life um but more and more we were just saying we might join a run club because I did a race last night there were loads

of great looking men there so we were like we've got to go out and like be doing stuff in the real world but and active and active yes this is good um uh northern railway recently announced that they'd blocked passengers from accessing dating apps on their onboard wi-fi do people really hook up on trains it's so funny i wrote about this recently i actually think trains are such a romantic place to meet someone if you don't know if you've seen Before Sunrise. Charged atmosphere. Yes, of course, I've seen them all. It's that, you know, with the trilogy. Link later movies.

Exactly. And it's that magical thing of that serendipitous meeting a stranger on a train. And maybe you're reading the same book and you have a little giggle and you start talking. And, you know, you're kind of stuck with them in this carriage, hopefully passing by some lovely countryside somewhere. It's a very romantic atmosphere. Or outside the toilet. Oh, no, because you've got haven't got a seat that's true it could also be that but the banning of the dating apps thing on the trains is just so absurd because the reason for that is they're lumping it in with sort of like safe internet so it's kind of lumped in with gambling and you know

you know looking at inappropriate content that's how it's been deemed. And I think to classify dating apps as inappropriate content is such a slight on single people. You know, it's hard enough as it is talking about to not be able to use dating apps on a train. It's just absurd. As we're talking about this, I've all I've become invested in the two of you. I feel like we're going to I'm going to ask our audience who are listening to give you two advice on other things that you could join apart from the run club. Sorry, I interrupted you. No, that's OK. I was going to say also because it is like a full time slog.

You have to set aside time to go through these dating apps. And the train journey is the perfect time. If you've got four hours London to Edinburgh, you could get through thousands of profiles. Very true. Eating all the crisps. Now, earlier, this is a good one. I'm sure lots of people listening will have heard this because it came out earlier this month about supermarkets in Spain where single people, this is true,

basically there's an hour a day dedicated to single people coming to supermarkets in Spain. And if they are single and interested, then you get put a pineapple upside down in your shopping trolley. And that indicates that you're looking for love. What do you make of that initiative? Isn't that what swingers do? Isn't that a swinging thing, the pineapple?

Isn't it? I think so. That's like a universe. I saw this, I think, on a TikTok about people on, am I allowed to talk about swinging? Talk about anything. On cruises, they put like upside down pineapples and apparently you have a pineapple in your house.

Anyway, so I don't think it's, I think it's about singles who are wanting to meet you go to the supermarket and pineapple upside down i'd be more interested in what else they've got in their trolley i think it says a lot about someone what they're buying in the supermarket actually you can make quite a lot of judgments based on someone's supermarket trolley much more than you can based on someone's dating app profile based on their height and based on what they do for a living you know but you're not thinking then people are going to be curate like that you know the men there's like a real thing because of jacob lordy of men carrying books with them that they think are going to be really feminist or like they'll have like dolly alderton

alderton's book or sally rooney's do you think there's going to be men on purpose putting like something vegan yeah and then you get to yet the house and in the fridge is just lard. And Lynx Africa. Or any other fragrance as well. The pampas grass thing. Isn't that pampas grass in your front garden? Yes. Like the swingers. There we go. Just to clear that up.

Shall we read out some of these messages? We've got quite a few coming in. Quite nice. Some people's meet-cutes. I found my beloved on a website. A German shepherd rescue Scotland. We hooked up six years ago and she makes my life complete. Unconditional love.

There you go. Just get a puppy. I met my heart, Celeste, at a free jazz gig in our town, which I'd only been living in for a couple of months. She was behind the bar and I asked her if she wanted to grab a drink the next evening. We talked for hours, skipped dinner and fell in love. We've been together ever since and I only love her more. She's amazing, so courageous and bright.

A light of my life and warmth and that's from Noah. There you go. It's all about being out and about. Another one here. My wife and I, LGBT, met through a bereaved parents charity. We weren't looking for a partner. I'd been divorced about 18 months. We had the most amazing friendship,

which blossomed over the next six months, and we grieved for our children together. Then she eventually left her husband, and after that, we got together. I tried apps after my divorce, and it was awful. Real connection through shared interest is definitely the way forward. You are both nodding.

Have you got any advice for our listeners who are desperately seeking real connection? I think ask your friends to set you up and ask your friends who are in relationships, ask them if they are with someone who is the gender that you are attracted to, ask their partner to set you up with their friends because that exposes you to other social circles beyond your own. So I think asking to be set up is definitely a really good way. Because you can vet people you have, you know, you have some mutual friends, they're not a total stranger, the stakes are a little bit higher, if you end up not liking them, it can be a little awkward kind of relaying that to your friend. But I think generally, it's a much nicer way to date than

meeting up with, you know, some random person on a dating app that you like because their star sign is compatible with yours I also think you know don't be down in the dumps about being single you get so much time back when you're not into a relationship so just even if you're not thinking about if you need to take a break from dating apps you need to take a break from dating just fill up your cup do stuff you love and you might meet people that way and just just say yes. When you're single, you just go to the party, do the thing, take yourself out. Amen to that, sister. Fill your own cup. Work on yourself.

Thank you both for coming in to speak to me. It's always a joy to have you in. Olivia Petter and Anoni Forver. And I love that you're friends. Come in and talk to us more. We want all the gossip. Thank you. I'm going to read out a couple more of your messages coming in because I'm enjoying them.

My husband and I met through the dating app Hinge. We went for a walk with my puppy and I knew I wanted to marry him when he produced a dog treat for him. Amy in Southampton. Why was he carrying dog treats? Another one here. Sorry, my screen did something funny. Here we go. I am 21 years old and I defend dating apps because the Internet is our third space now. There are very little opportunities to meet partners in real life. And if a man did try to chat me up in public, I would be suspicious. That's interesting. Dating apps just speed up the process of shoveling through bad men like any AI tool. You can use them to your advantage. After many unsuccessful hinge dates that ranged from

boring to traumatic, I learned to create my own personal algorithm and subsequently I met my current boyfriend who is my best friend in the world. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email me via our website. Now, what is the best practice for journalists when it comes to reporting on rape cases? Why does the way it's reported matter and what sort of a difference can considered reporting make. Today the End Violence Against Women Coalition are launching a new resource on responsible reporting on rape based on analysis of 12 years of coverage in the British press. Sadly you don't have to look too far for examples. This week alone we've heard about the ongoing French court case of Giselle Pellico regarding the decade-long sexual abuse by her husband and many other men.

And of course, there's been the BBC investigation into accusations made by more than 20 women against Mohamed Al-Fayed of sexual assault and rape. We spoke to a survivor, Sophia, on Woman's Hour yesterday. Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by observer, journalist, writer and broadcaster Yvonne Roberts and CEO of EVAW, Andrea Simons. Welcome to Woman's Hour, both of you. Why do you believe this is needed?

So it matters a great deal how we report about rape and sexual violence because it does have an impact on our collective beliefs and attitudes around violence against women and girls and when we read articles and headlines that sometimes can show sympathy for perpetrators whether explicitly or maybe are just providing justifications for their actions it makes us think that sometimes it could be excusable in some context for there to be violence against women and girls and that's just not the case so quite often we find that some of the language that's being used can reflect, but also reinforce victim blaming stereotypes and victim shaming. And so it's important that we think about reporting responsibly and whether we are reinforcing those kinds of myths.

There's a very strongly held myth still in society that women cry rape and that potentially a lot of the reports could not be true. And it doesn't actually be, it's not borne out by the evidence. And frequently we see in reporting alleged rape or alleged victim. And sometimes it implies the focus is on reports that are coming from women that may not be true. But we don't tend and has found that actually the way that we talk about it is quite often accompanied by the terms alleged when you're talking about victims. But then we talk very strongly about how men have been accused

to strenuously deny this. And so there's an imbalance in how we're thinking and talking about rape. Yvonne, you're a print journalist. I mean, sometimes you have to use the word alleged because it's an ongoing court case. But yes, I take your point. Why have you come behind this? Why are you backing this?

I think if you look at the context of rape, I mean, there are something like 68,000 rapes reported to the police. Of those, only 5% will result in a charge. And of those, 2.9% will end in a conviction. That 68,000 is probably only a sixth of the number of rapes actually taking place. Something is seriously going wrong. And in the first place, I don't see the press very interested in that. Why is that happening? What are the causes? How can it be put right? And secondly, I think if you look back from the 1980s through, and in the 1980s I was reporting, there was a definite feeling that there was a thing called date rape

where it was allegedly as a result of bad sex the night before and the woman woke up in the morning and decided that she would call it rape. And there was a lot of discussion about the pendulum swinging too far and feminism had gone too far and so on. And ever since, really, the scrutiny has always been on the female behaviour rather than what is being done in this crime of rape. Rape is about consent, which is difficult. It is difficult. There's no question about that.

But there are other ways of corroborating apart from he said and she said. And Alessia's research is excellent because it's actually based on a computer-based analysis of language. So it's the language that is used. It's not some subjective series of judgments about how she thinks the press report. It's actually about looking at the language of the actual words used in the way press is reported. So, for example, if you have a press report that says in the early hours of the morning, a woman, after having had drinks with her friends, is raped in a car park in Croydon, that in itself is carrying another story apart from the story of rape. So that's what's got to be... It's telling us that she'd had a few drinks.

She's had a few drinks. She's had a few drinks. She is responsible. It's always the woman who's responsible or nearly always the woman who's responsible. It's tapping into what culture kind of instantly people will jump on. Women have to police their own behaviour. House arrest preferably in some cases, you know, that you'd be better off.

In fact, there was a judge in the 1980s. Two teenagers had been to a pop concert and they were raped by six boys, teenagers, multiple times. And the judge's response was that they would have been better off tucked up in bed. He actually apologised later in his career. But that sense of awareness of just something said glibly can actually have a huge impact. It stops women coming forward

because A, they don't want that public humiliation. B, they don't recognise their own rape. Some women call it non-consensual sex. It's not non-consensual sex, it's rape. Well, interesting that you said he apologised years later because obviously the culture's changed. So maybe his thinking's changed. So I'll ask both of you this. How do you get buy-in from the top? You're someone who's worked in newsrooms. You've had to report to editors who say, you know, we need this. You want people to pick up the paper. You know, it kind of all perpetuates wanting to get the story out there. So how do you ensure?

It's happening. It's already happening. And it's happening in a multitude of small ways, if you like. For a start, an awful lot of women are coming up through the ranks. So we now have female editors, which actually when I started was very, very rare. You also have organizations like Evo, which are constantly raising objections. The Giselle Pellico case is an example. Because I think the Telegraph had a headline, Wife Takes Public Revenge on the Men Who Raped Her Every revenge on the men who raped her every night on husband's orders.

A, that was incorrect. B, she wasn't taking revenge. She was seeking justice. And the men weren't compliant to the husband. They were taking what they could get. And that was taken down. That headline was changed. Yeah, we did actually ask for a response from the Telegraph,

but we haven't heard back from them. Although we do know, as you just said, the original headline was changed. Yeah we did actually ask for a response from the Telegraph but we haven't heard back from them although we do know like as you just said the original headline was changed. I think what that case in particular showed was obviously how brave it is for survivors who come forward and wave their anonymity

but also that the message very much was the shame was not hers the shame was theirs and that's absolutely right and one of the core principles within that this resource that we're launching today is that we need to actually stop with this determining of women's credibility as to whether sexual violence has taken place or not we need to see shift away from that and we believe women's accounts because the the truth is the vast majority of reports of rape are true. It's

a very difficult thing to do to come forward and talk about being a victim of sexual violence. And actually what's happening is that many women are being denied justice for rape and sexual violence. And it's appalling that there's actually so many of Giselle Pellico's perpetrators who actually not found still. So the fact that we continually to see perpetrators not being held to account for it is more of the story. There's already the Independent Press Standards Organisation guidance on reporting sexual offences. So why is this needed? I think that sometimes people don't make complaints. They do have a guidance as well on reporting sexual offences, but they say that they don't interfere with the words and it's actually the words that matter. reports was in January from I think from the Crown Prosecution Service of the attitudes of young men. Older people are actually beginning to understand that you don't necessarily have to have

physical damage to have been raped and that you may not go immediately to report the rape and that rape within marriage actually exists. Half of the younger men do not think that. Now what are they reading? Where are they getting their influence from? It must be media and social media. So you know, I don't know whether that needs another independent monitoring thing or how you challenge that but it's very

important that it is challenged. Yeah, it's something that comes up time and time again on this program. Andrea, not all men are equal because in the research it says that celebrities and successful white men accused of sexual assault and rape have also habitually been treated more gently in the media. Do you see that? Yeah. So in Dr. Trankesi's research, she found that there was a connection between increasing use of the word alleged within the media from, say, 2012 onwards, but also an increase in reporting on celebrity cases. So it feels like there was a strong connection there where it's a powerful man

who potentially has the means to sue for defamation. So I think there's a connection between media outlets being understandably cautious about the legal situation and using alleged to accompany a description of their actions but there's a huge power inequality here when we're thinking about the victims on the other side of this they almost always lack the same wealth and status as those as those men and have often women have talked about feeling silenced and not able to talk about their abuse they maybe have signed a non-disclosure agreement it can be that there are super injunctions that are imposed on press reporting and so we know that the journalists are also operating within a complex and tricky sometimes legal situation but her research also found that

those high status perpetrators um were often more easily uh some of the the ways that their behavior was described could be countered by a focus on their careers and the consequences for them. And we very rarely think about the consequences on the lives of victims in the same way. That's not really given as much attention. Somehow it's more important for the consequences. I think what's interesting about the Al-Fayed case is that an awful lot of women will not be surprised. This is the patriarchy. This is how the patriarchy works. You know, security men, doctors, various PAs, all enabling him to take his pick of young women. And nobody did anything to intervene. in the Pellico case where Dominique Pellico the husband was advertising they were getting 500,000

500,000 hits a month nobody stopped that and said hang on a minute what's this man actually doing this is the patriarchy this is where the gender imbalance really does not work in women's favour so when journalists do report it depends

if you're reporting on a court case as you said you're constrained by the evidence. But even that you can pick and choose. And there is a classic headline from The Guardian in 1993. Well, they wouldn't do it now, which said student cleared of rape in quoted commas, the slut of the year. That sort of thing, you know, is not happening. But there's still there's still a kind of blindness to the fact the wider context of how and why women are being raped. I'm keen to kind of end on talking about the positives that can be taken from these findings.

Can journalism have a positive impact? Huge, massive, absolutely massive. I work for The Observer and because the editor met one of the women who run the femicide census, we did a whole series of campaigns on femicide, which was really important. And it encouraged other women to come forward because they recognised in the reporting their own experiences, which they hadn't necessarily seen elsewhere. So people at the top can actually make a huge difference. I mean, an investigation into what has happened to rape would help, for example. I think also the combination of working with organisations,

individual journalists working with organisations like Evo has helped to make a massive difference. And I think also if you have the backing of organisations, as a journalist, the women that you want to talk to, the victims, will trust you. Yeah. So, Andrea, is the NUJ on board with you? Yes, it's been really great that they've shared the event and the resource. So, and I think getting to different journalists at different stages of their career is really important so that they can be thinking and reflecting about their role in helping to end violence against women and girls.

It is a whole society issue and everybody can play a role in it. So we do see this as an important point where we can reflect on the kinds of language we use, the messages that we're sending. The messages we're sending and when people pick up the paper and read what they're reading, like think about the sentence that you're reading and what it's telling you. Words matter. Really fascinating. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me both of you um Yvonne Roberts and Andrea Simons thank you I'm gonna end with a couple of your tweets just because you have been sending me all your stories of how you met the loves of your life one here I met my wife on a silent retreat in the Sinai desert it meant we got to know each other

from inside out when we started talking after five days, it turned out we shared interests and lived a few miles from one another in London. Weird, but wonderful. Thank you, Mark. Do join Krupa tomorrow. He'll be looking at what parental leave is available to fathers in the UK. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse and from BBC Radio 4, this is Series 2 of The Coming Storm. There's a divide in American politics between those who think democracy is in peril and those who think it's already been subverted, hollowed out from the inside. In order to understand the deep state, you must understand the organisations within the deep state.

As America prepares to elect its next president, we go through the looking glass into a world where nothing is as it seems, where the storming of the Capitol was a setup, and the institutions of the state are a facade. It's all an illusion. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.