Woman's Hour - Meera Syal in 'Roar', Women prisoners facing racism report, 'Goblin mode', Single women Ukrainian refugees, Esme Young

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

Described as 'darkly comic feminist fables' ‘Roar’ is a new eight-part drama series adapted from Cecilia Aherne's short story collection. Each episode shines a spotlight on women's experiences and how women navigate through other's perceptions of them as well as their own. Comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist and actor, Meera Syal, plays ‘The Woman Who Returned her Husband’. She joins Chloe Tilley.A new report highlights the experiences of over 260 Black, Asian, minority ethnic and foreign national women in the twelve prisons across England. Their accounts of indirect and direct racism have been described as shocking and distressing The report is compiled by the Criminal Justice Alliance in collaboration with the Independent Monitoring Boards. Nina Champion is Director of the Criminal Justice Alliance and Dame Anne Owers is National Chair of the Independent Monitoring Boards and the former Chief Inspectorate of Prisons.Have you got an inner goblin? Do you ever let it out? Not washing for days, slobbing in bed, binge watching TV series in one sitting, eating random things left at the back of your fridge with melted cheese on… these would all be considered ‘goblin mode’. You might do it in private but would you post pictures to social media for the world to see? Well this has become a new trend taking over TikTok with videos using the hashtag gaining over 2.1 billion views. So why are generation Z women turning their back on the gym going, smoothy drinking, ‘It’ girl whose aim is self-improvement, to reveal their inner goblins to the world? To explain more we hear from Ione Gamble, writer and editor-in-chief of Polyester zine and podcast and Halima Jibril, writer and editor of Ashamed zine. The UK government has been told to stop matching lone female Ukrainian refugees with single men. The UN has intervened following concerns that women and sometimes children are at risk of sexual exploitation. Under the government’s Homes for Ukraine scheme, British hosts must link up with refugees themselves, leaving tens of thousands of people to resort to unregulated social media groups to connect. More than 200,000 people in Britain have applied to host refugees under the scheme but just 28,500 visas have been issued so far. We hear from Louise Calvey, Head of Services and Safeguarding at Refugee Action and Times reporter, Shayma Bakht. She posed as a 22 year old Ukrainian woman online and within minutes was inundated with inappropriate messages. Esme Young has been at the cutting edge of the fashion industry for over 50 years. From launching her own label Swanky Modes, dressing stars like Grace Jones and Cher and more recently being one half of the judging duo on The Great British Sewing Bee. Esme joins Chloe to discuss her new book, 'Behind The Seams', where she recounts iconic outfits and raucous parties and the clothes in her wardrobe she just can't part with. Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Meera Syal Interviewed Guest: Nina Champion Interviewed Guest: Dame Anne Owers Interviewed Guest: Ione Gamble Interviewed Guest: Halima Jibril Interviewed Guest: Louise Calvey Interviewed Guest: Shayma Bakht Interviewed Guest: Esme Young

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Good to have your company. Now, we're joined today by two successful women who regularly grace our TV screens. Meera Sayal, actress and comedian amongst other things, is here to talk to us about her latest role. She's with me in the studio and we're going to speak shortly. Then later on, Esme Young, one of the judges on the great British sewing bee, will be here to talk to us about her new book.

It charts her life from going to boarding school at the age of five to setting up an all-female fashion house, which was one of the first to use Lycra all the way to our TV screens. And slightly ironically, she's never owned a TV, but we'll talk to her about that as well. And we're also going to be talking about the Homes for Ukraine scheme. After the United Nations Refugee Agency raised concerns about women's safety, the UNHCR says women and mothers with children should only be matched with couples and families, not single men,

after increasing reports of female refugees feeling at risk from male sponsors. We'll hear from refugee action and also a Times journalist who went undercover posing as a 22-year-old Ukrainian woman wanting to come to the UK. Plus the female prisoners from an ethnic minority background who were experiencing racism in English jails. A new report describes their experiences as shocking and distressing. The former chief inspector of prisons, Dame Anne Owers, will be with us. And we're also going to be talking about goblin mode today. Now, it seems to be the antidote to the it girl, where instead of showing a perfect gym and smoothie-fuelled life on social media,

you basically slob around all day in your pyjamas. You're watching box sets, you're eating in bed, and then you post it on TikTok. Well, this morning, I want to know what is your inner goblin? Is it avoiding the shower all weekend, eating days-old takeaway, or perhaps leaving piles of clothes on your bedroom floor where you stepped out of them? Or maybe the thing that caused the most outrage in the Woman's Hour office this morning, re-wearing your underwear.

Yes, you heard me right. Share with me your inner goblin this morning. You can text us now on Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Also on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through the website. And I also want to know, would you share your goblin on social media for the whole world to see? Many people are doing that on TikTok. The hashtag has had over 2 billion views. Now let's begin.

It's described as darkly comic feminist fables. Raw is a new eight-part drama series adapted from Cecilia Ahern's short story collection. Each episode shines a spotlight on women's experiences and how women navigate through others' perceptions of them as well as their own. Well, I'm delighted to say that the comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist and actor Meera Sayal, who stars in The Woman Who Returned Her Husband, is here with me in the studio. Good morning, Meera. Morning. So good to have you here. So lovely to have someone in the studio with us.

That is quite a list of skills that you've got, incredibly impressive list of skills. Do you have a favourite? Do you know, I really think some of those should be off the list, frankly. I mean, really modest. Seriously, I think actor and writer will be fine. Those are held my hand up. Well, let's talk about Raw because it's available tomorrow on Apple TV Plus. And so it's called this darkly feminist tale. And it's very much got a comic edge. But just kind of describe the overarching premise for us if you would so the premise is um eight self-contained um dystopian twisty dark tales each featuring a woman who's who's the central character they're all based on cecilia's short stories as you said and they all reflect in a very unexpected way the female experience. And in

fact, the whole team was female. The entire creative team, producers, directors, writers, it was fantastic. And mine, as the title suggests, is a woman who discovers in the world she lives in, and this is the dystopian twist, that if you have kept the receipt when you got married, you can in fact return your husband to a place that looks very much like Costco. So that's what she does. And my character is called Anu. She's just turned 60. Her daughter is flying her nest and looking like she's going to have the kind of life Anu suddenly realizes she never had. She is the generation that feminism slightly bypassed. And it's a terrible shock. Mortality is beckoning. And her husband will not change, despite her pleas.

So she takes him back. He takes it quite well. He does, really. Yes, dear Bernard. Bernard White, played by my husband. And he's just gorgeous, gentle, mournful actor. He brings all of that to the screen, doesn't he? Yes, because I think at heart, he knows he hasn't been the greatest husband.

But the shock is that, of course, most people just put up and shut up, don't you? You just think, well, this is what I'm stuck with. The difference for Anu is that she reaches a stage where she cannot stop. She can't do anything. She can't not do anything. She has to do something. And I think a lot of women resonate with that feeling and this story that, you know, we can put up with a certain amount,

but when we snap, we snap and then we move. Let's have a listen. This is Anu returning her husband to the supermarket. And what's the reason for your return today? The reason? Yes, ma'am. What's the reason for your return today? The reason? Yes, ma'am. What's the reason for returning your husband? Where to start? Yeah, I guess it boils down to me looking at the next 20 years of my life, God willing,

and wanting something different. From me? Just say it. You want something different. From me? Just say it. You want something different from me? Options are does not fit, manufacturing defect, arrived late, arrived damaged, not suitable. Oh, just say not suitable. I love that. Just not suitable. I wonder, and you've touched on this, whether this kind of taps into the fantasy that many people could have about their long term partners.

Oh, I think, let's face it, it's probably flitted across most people's minds in any long term relationship. You know, the thing that you loved is the thing that might actually drive you nuts 20 years later. But that is part of the long term relationship. And I suppose the question is, do you grow together? And in Anu and Vic's case they they really haven't and it's a shock to both their systems and what I really love about this story is that it's the ending is quite unexpected and it's not what you think is going to happen and it's not the easy way out and I think it's very tender and touching and real what happens to Anu and some of

the tales are very different in the anthology. You know, there's this kind of psychological horror. There's a murder mystery. I mean, each genre is quite different, but they're all about the female experience in a very clever way, I think. And it's interesting in your piece, because it's very much about communication and communication breaking down. And that happens so much.

Oh, gosh, all the time. I mean, I think lockdown actually brought a lot of those issues to the fore. You know, of course, when you first get together, that's the person you want to lock down with. And that's not the case when you've been married for 20 years. Possibly. I'm just saying that. And you suddenly go, oh, that's who you are. And sometimes it's a wonderful surprise.

And of course, you can rediscover each other. And that is the gift of a long term relationship. But we don't, not all of us are lucky enough to have that, you know. And I was thinking, in some ways, there's some sort of similarities between this role and Shirley Valentine, which, of course, you played back in 2010. You know, it's a woman who's just not happy with her lot and not prepared to stick with it. Yeah, I'm really good at disappointed women. I don't know why.

I think I grew up around a lot of them and I've certainly said this before in interviews that unfulfilled potential in women of a certain age, I find really, well, actually in women of any age, I find upsetting on a very primal level because I think there is nothing sadder than a bird that's had its wings clipped. And that's certainly what's happened to Unnu. And you're absolutely right. It was Shirley Valentine had, I mean, she has this whole wonderful quote about an unlived

life. And that really resonated with a lot of women of a certain age. And many nights I would look out into the audience and I would see the Shirleys looking back at me and often crying because they felt it. But it's not too late, which is what the wonderful thing about a new story is. It's not too late to make that change. And when she kind of realises it's not too late,

it's at her 60th birthday lunch, isn't it, with her friends. And, I mean, I hope you don't mind me saying you turned 60 last year. You're going to say it, aren't you? I can't believe you turned 60, because when I first read that, I was like, this can't be right. But you did. And, you know, whether it's 60, 50, 40, whatever it is, when it's got a zero on the end, we can sometimes have a wobble.

Did you wobble? Do you know, funnily enough, enough I didn't and I thought I would um I maybe because I had a lot of friends that have already turned 60 and I saw various levels of wobble going on but I know it's a cliche but honestly it really is a number and it's so much about the perception of society of what 60 means and of course for our mum's generation and beyond it was it's slippers time it's slippers put your feet up and actually that's the last thing you should do as you get older you know what you should be doing is putting your walking boots on or doing your yoga or playing your netball as I do and staying curious because I'm lucky I do a job

that gives me so much of that every job I do I meet a whole new bunch of people I'm lucky I do a job that gives me so much of that. Every job I do, I meet a whole new bunch of people. I'm learning lines. My memory's tested. And I love what I do. I love it. And it's a thing I always dreamt of doing. So I still get real joy from what I do. And I think that's helpful too.

We've heard a lot, haven't we, over the years about older women being overlooked, particularly in acting. And I'm wondering if you, over your career, have seen that, or is it changing? It is changing slowly. The fact that we can point to the Harriet Walters, and I know Helen Mirren is always in there, but, you know, the Leslie Sharps, the Leslie Manvilles, there's plenty of fabulous actresses that are actually doing their best work now.

However, we still can name them. And that's also a sign that, yes, the exception proves the rule. So we have some way to go. But again, I think Roar is a great example that when you have women in those positions of power, the ones that are actually commissioning and writing and directing, suddenly things change because that's their lived experience too. You're not having to explain why it's important

to have an older woman in your mix because they are one and they know. And I didn't realise that it was actually Nicole Kidman's production company, Blossom Films, which has made Roar. And you say yourself, you know, the fact that it's an all-female creative team makes it important.

I mean, on one hand, that's great. On the other hand, it's kind of disappointing, isn't it, that it needs that to elevate women's stories and give women's stories a voice? I guess so, but I think, well, autonomy is always the first stage of revolution. I should have that on a mug at some point. But I think sometimes you do need that

to just crack open the different view of things. And then of course, people go, that's a really good idea. And of course, and then it becomes normal. And you hope you get to the stage where it's not the exception, it's just normal. And that's, we're just in the mix represented, and we don't have to comment about it. And that will be nice when we get to that stage. I know that you mentioned an awards ceremony for women a few years ago you did an interview and you were talking about women often being overlooked and that we need to pick out the women who are doing brilliantly we need to support them we need to remind each other that there's many many of us who are doing that do you think that is all starting to happen it's starting to move that women are supporting women

and the voices are being heard yeah Yeah, well, that has really often been my experience throughout my career, I have to say. You know, many of my mentors and supporters and on a sort of day to day level are my fellow creative female friends. And many of them are South Asian, actually, probably because we really very specifically understand what those struggles have been. That's not to say we exclude anybody anybody else we have many things in common with a load of other women but sometimes it's a specific experience so for me that's not I mean I'm you know that generation of feminists that gravitated completely towards the female support network and I have to say it's pretty much not let me down but I love the fact that the new

generation of women coming up are not rediscovering it it was always there but I think are now really trumpeting how important that is and that if we are all going to move forward it isn't about only being the only one in the room the divide and rule it is about no actually you become better when you raise other people up with you. I mean i don't want to sound depressing about this but you you've got a bit of a theme with unhappy wives at the moment i love the split on bbc and you were fantastic was it the first series that you were in and you're back again this series now i haven't seen i'm a bit behind but do you want to give us a bit of a tease about her role in this series? Oh, well, I have to say I only did one episode, so I pop in as a sort of, you know,

finishing off to a story that began in the first series of this bit, which a lot of people responded to, which, of course, Goldie is blindsided by her husband divorcing her out of the blue and then has hidden all his money. So she has to go through... Yeah, you're nodding your head. It's a really common story, isn't it? It is a common story, yeah. Has to go forensically through all the accounts that he's, you know, hidden

and gets her revenge. And I think Abby Morgan, the writer, just thought it will be, as the whole series is about the breakup of marriages really and the after effect to see Goldie having come back from a bruising awful experience as a very fulfilled happy woman on the next stage of her journey just to go there's there's hope after all this destruction and unhappiness and before I let you go um lots of you've got lots of projects in the pipeline haven't you give us a flavor of what I let you go, you've got lots of projects in the pipeline, haven't you? Give us a flavour of what you've got coming up.

You've got things for Radio 4, you've got things... What can you talk to us about? Yes, I'm just about to record a second series of Gossiping Goddesses with Amir Kumar. We have some fabulous female guests coming on to that. I've also recorded a series called The Devil's Hour for Amazon, which is a fantastic, spooky, psychological thriller. Really, the kind of thing I love watching,

so that's coming out soon. There is something else, and I've... Let me think. No, you've mentioned... I've got brain freeze now. Oh, you've got an upcoming film, have you not? The Armoured and the Seahorse. Yes, which ironically is about traumatic brain injury and loss of memory.

But it's a brilliant film with Rebel Wilson, yes. So, yeah, it was odd, actually, because having not worked at all for months and months and months over the pandemic, I think this happened to a lot of actors. Suddenly all the delayed projects all came back and suddenly it was very busy. So, yeah, swings and roundabouts.

Well, it's been fantastic speaking to you this morning. Thank you so much for coming in. And, yeah, swings and roundabouts. Well, it's been fantastic speaking to you this morning. Thank you so much for coming in. And, yeah, you can watch Raw. It premieres on Apple TV tomorrow. Your episode is episode seven, I think, from memory. Yes. So it's a little bit later on. But actually they all drop altogether.

Oh, they all drop at the same time. So if you want to watch mine first, that would be marvellous. You can watch it in whatever order you want to. Whatever order you want. Meera Sayal, thank you so much for coming in to speak to us. Thank you. Great to speak to you this morning. Now, a new report has highlighted racism experienced by female prisoners from an ethnic minority background in England.

260 women serving in 12 prisons gave accounts of indirect and direct racism, which have been described as shocking and distressing. Well, the report's been compiled by the Criminal Justice Alliance in collaboration with the Independent Monitoring Boards. Nina Champion is Director of the Criminal Justice Alliance and Dame Anne Owers is National Chair of the Independent Monitoring Board and, of course, the former Chief Inspector of Prisons. And both of them are with me now.

Good morning to you both. Good morning. Nina, maybe you can tell us first of all, these stories that women told you that were shocking and distressing. Just give us an example of what they told you. Thank you. So as you said, we received survey responses

from over 260 women in prison and they gave us examples of direct racism such as being called monkeys and gorillas of staff members saying that they don't like their hair had been. They've been electrocuted because of their Afro hair, that it needed straightening. That 25 percent of the respondents who had English as a second language said that they'd been told by a staff member not to speak in a foreign language. And one had said they'd been told, speak English, you're in England now. Another detailed that they'd been wearing religious garments because they were Muslim and a staff member had asked them

to change out of their nightclothes because they didn't understand the different religious and cultural sort of background. And what women also told us was that there was a sense of fatalism, really, that they couldn't complain about this because it wouldn't make any difference. And they were also scared that there was a sense of fatalism, really, that they couldn't complain about this, you know, because it wouldn't make any difference. And they were also scared that there'd be other repercussions if they did complain. So the lack of complaints, I think, in the past has been seen that there's no issues, there's no problem, whereas this report clearly identifies there's issues going on, and a lack of trust and confidence in that complaints process.

And you also spoke to staff about their experience. Just tell us what they said. Yeah, so we surveyed equalities staff. So in each prison, there's a lead member of staff with equalities as a responsibility. And what they were saying was often is that they didn't have the time or the resources to do that job adequately, and they didn't have access to the data to understand

whether there was indirect discrimination, because the women were telling us as well that there was a sense that white women were given favouritism in terms of access to education and employment opportunities, to day release where they could go to college or start work. So it was really holding them back from accessing rehabilitation and turning their lives around. But the Equality staff and the IMB monitors didn't have access to the data to show whether this was happening and in order to address it properly. You say IMB, just to be clear for our listeners, that's the Independent Monitoring Board, so people

know that. And maybe I can bring you in dame anna as well because you're chair of the board which monitors the treatment and care of prisoners this must be very disturbing reading for you yes it was um not wholly unexpected because i think our boards which are all just for your readers they're all volunteers who um who go into their local prison and monitor what's going on for some while before COVID, they were telling us that the amount that the resource, staff resource devoted to equalities, the focus on equalities and discrimination had been decreasing, that staff were doing other jobs and that the equality's work was starting to fall off and this was even before covid and i think what was particularly disappointing for us is there's

a new strategy white paper for prisons which is setting out a 10-year vision and you don't see any mention of of race or um equality is very much in there um even though there have been big reports about race issues in prisons. I just wonder if that is down to the fact that this is effectively a minority within a minority, because women make up a very small proportion of the prison population. And then the women who are from an ethnic minority background, therefore, it's even lower. Does that mean that the prison service doesn't see them as, because there's a small percentage, they're not as important as the rest of the prison population, therefore the focus isn't on them? Do you think that, Anne? I think there's a general lack of focus on race across the whole of the prison system,

but I think you're right to point out to the fact that people have a number of identities, and the identity of being a woman in prison, the identity of being from a minority ethnic group or foreign national in prison. The understanding of how those different identities relate to someone's experience is really important and that's why we need more training for staff in awareness of that. Nina, I can see you're nodding. Yeah, well, I mean, this is a legal duty on the Ministry of Justice and the prison service. There's a public sector equality duty, which means there's a legal duty to eliminate discrimination, to advance equality of opportunity

and to foster good relations. And we really don't see that that's happening. So there really needs to be a much greater focus. And as Anne said, there is this opportunity now with the prisons white paper. And we are delighted that about recently a working group has been set up in the Ministry of Justice looking at this group of women. But much more needs to be done in terms of real kind of ministerial leadership and adequate resources. There are some fantastic specialist organisations and charities out there, such as Muslim Women in Prison Project, the Zaid Mubarak Trust, Hizbiscus Initiatives, and others who could really be doing

some more fantastic work in prisons to both train staff and support IMBs in their role and working directly with the women themselves. Anne, what's the percentage of Independent Monitoring Board members who are from an ethnic minority background? We don't have a high enough proportion. Not all of our members tell us of their ethnicity.

They don't have to. But as the report says, those who do, 87% identify as white. So we do need to do more to diversify our boards. Since I'm on national radio at the moment, we've got recruitment campaigns going on in the north-west in Wales and the north-east right now. We are very keen indeed to do

more focused campaigns like this rather than individual prison boards having to recruit. We're trying to do it in a more collaborative way to be able to reach out to as diverse a group as we can. And Nina, it sounds like the diversity of the staff needs to improve as well within the prisons, judging by what the prisoners themselves were reporting to you. Absolutely. I mean, only just over 10% of staff across the prison estate

declared their ethnicity as Black, Asian or minority ethnic. And, you know, in particular with women's prisons, they are often, you know, in rural areas. And so it becomes even more difficult to recruit diversely.

So there really needs to be some focused effort and resource by the government to recruit more diversely but as ann said it's it's a combination it's not just about recruiting more diverse staff it's also about recruiting staff that you know don't have uh racist attitudes that you know providing that ongoing training and reflection and support so that it's an inclusive environment because otherwise you're recruiting staff into a workplace that isn't supportive of them. So this really needs to be a whole prison approach to tackling

racial inequality. And Anne, before you go, I know that you've written a blog about the impact on COVID in prisons and you've spoken about the concern about significant self-harm spikes in women in prison and also the frustration that on the outside restrictions are starting to ease and not so much at such a fast pace within prisons. What does that mean in reality for women in prison today? Well in reality it does mean that prisons are the restrictions are reducing much more slowly than had been hoped and there is a real issue with staffing in prisons, that even when COVID is no longer so much of a risk, I think prisons are struggling to recruit and retain enough staff. And so the legitimate expectations of prisoners, both men and women, but particularly, as you

pointed out, women at risk of self-harm, they may find that things are not moving back to what was the normal, which wasn't perfect by any means, nearly as quickly as they should do. Thank you both so much for joining us this morning. I'm very grateful to you. That was Dame Anne Owers, who is National Chair of the Independent Monitoring Boards and the former Chief Inspector of Prisons. And also we heard from Nina Champion, who is Director of the Criminal Justice Alliance, which carried out that report. Now, this is a question that I want you to think about and indeed get in touch with us. And many of you are already this morning. Have you got an inner goblin? And if so, do you ever let it out? This is not washing for days, slobbing in bed, binge watching TV series in one sitting,

eating ranting things that are kind of at the back of the fridge, maybe just chuck a bit of melted cheese on it, it'll all be all right. Well, this is considered goblin mode. Now, you might do it in private, but would you post those pictures on social media for the world to see? Well, this is a new trend which is taking over TikTok. Videos using the hashtag have got over 2.1 billion views.

So why are Generation Z women turning their back on going to the gym, drinking smoothies, being an it girl whose aim is self-improvement and actually revealing their inner goblins to the world? Well here to explain more is Ione Gamble who is writer and editor in chief of the Polyesterzine and podcast and also with us is Halima Jibril who is writer and editor of Ashamed Scene. Welcome to both of you. Hi. Hello. So first of all if people aren't familiar with this goblin mode I only just explain to us exactly what it means. Right so goblin mode as you mentioned is a trend that kind of has grown prominence over TikTok and it kind of became more popular after there was a false news piece about Julia

Fox and Kanye West where it was a headline where Julia Fox said Kanye doesn't like it when I go into goblin mode and that was kind of you know adopted by young women on the internet to show the more I suppose like the more unsavory facets of their life I feel like we've been expected to perform to such a degree on social media for such a long time. And feminism over the last decade has kind of been very focused on self-improvement and doing everything right. And this is kind of just like a rejection of that. Do you agree with that, Halima? It's this kind of kickback against all these people who were getting up at five in the morning to go to the gym and only having a green smoothie and then posting it to the world.

Absolutely. to the gym and only having a green smoothie and then posting it to the world absolutely i think the pandemic has also um influenced this as well because people haven't had to perform outside as much and they've just been able to like be their human selves without having to um please anybody else explain some of the terms it girl that girl just what does that mean for people who are scratching their heads losing it here as to what the thread is um so an it girl is the traditional it girl that we kind of all know and are familiar with like maybe alexa chung or someone like that chloe sevengy like someone who has risen to fame not for being famous but kind of is like a darling of the fashion worlds of like the upper areas of society and then that girl is kind of like a TikTok twist on it. So that girl is like you wake up 5am, you do your workout, you have your smoothie, you live your life in

the right way in order to set yourself up to like be the most successful you can, the most optimised you can and to kind of live this aspirational lifestyle that a lot of influencers lead. And then Goblin Mode, as we we've mentioned is like the kickback to that but also has been adopted by a lot of the influencers that like display that girl tendencies to seem more relatable online so it's about authenticity versus pretense in some ways yeah I would say so Halima what do you think I agree completely like that girl has her life together or she makes it seem like she has a life together anyway. She has quite an, I would say, an unattainable lifestyle because not all of us can wake up at 5 a.m. and do all those things. So I think that the goblin road trend is definitely a rejection of that because I think people think that that girl trend is a little bit ridiculous. How are you feeling Halima well both of you actually but Halima tell me first about the use of the word goblin and whether

this is just always associated with women because goblin it's not it's not a nice word is it and I'm just wondering if it's another way to attack women would you get men doing this? That's a good question I don't think so when I heard the term I didn't think of it as, were like it's not a reclamation but it's something I think we have kind of this obsession of like mythologizing our lives and making them seem important especially through the internet and through the pandemic where maybe we didn't have a lot going on and like a goblin is kind of a playful way to express the parts of ourselves that we felt like we've had to hide for so long. It's interesting, literally, as I asked you this question, this text dropped. Goblin mode, how misogynistic is that term?

Can we please enable women to be human rather than labelling them if they're not conforming to old stereotypes and tropes? Being real doesn't make them a goblin, it makes me normal. And I guess that's the thing, is this offensive to some people? I know that there has been a backlash, hasn't there, for example, from some disabled people and disabled groups with using this term? Right. So, yeah, I have chronic illness as well. And I've actually written about kind of like not Goblin Mode because it's pre Goblin Mode, but I called it like being a gross girl in my book and I think that it's fair enough because what we're seeing on the internet is maybe like conventionally attractive cisgender white upper middle class women performing goblin mode and doing it kind of like I'm just like you kind of vibe but I do think there's also I mean throughout the pandemic there's been so many

opportunities for us to be more understanding of how disabled and chronically ill people live and I think if we can normalize some of this behavior it's good for everyone but I do however think that you know like chronically ill and disabled voices should be in the middle of that conversation and leading it as opposed to kind of following or being in the shadow of these more privileged people. Halima do you think that's true that certain people are sort of allowed to be in goblin mode and other people aren't? Absolutely. I think that a lot of disabled people, as Aileen mentioned, talked about the fact that, you know, in this age, capitalism, access to hygiene is fraught. Even if somebody can afford hygiene products products many disabled people have difficulty um to shower regularly from physical obstacles like inaccessible bathrooms to

mental illness that complicate the ability to do simple tasks like showering um so like definitely there's definitely a group of people who are allowed to not perform whereas other people you know they're seen as disgusting or dirty and those things kind of have serious repercussions in real life like for fat people or with disabled people or people of color like for example black women are told that their hair makes them look dirty or unprofessional and that impacts school life or or employment opportunities or with fat people it's the same thing with the way doctors see them and seeing them as dirty or a more severe example is with the AIDS crisis and HIV where a lot of

doctors didn't want to touch these patients because in fear that they were dirty or contaminated. So like, being understood, being seen as dirty or clean can be the line between violence and survival for a lot of minorities. So I think that it does, there are issues, of course. And there's nuance to the whole topic, I think. Of course, as there always is, isn't there these issues of course um and there's nuance to the whole topic I think of course as there always is isn't there are these kind of things and I only am I right in thinking that you've actually got some group chats called goblin yeah so two so both of my studio groups for like my workspace are called goblin chats and then I know of another goblin chat which is a group of female journalists that I'm actually not in but love them all and I

think it's just this also like on the misogynistic thing like goblin mode kind of is a way of like oh we are all like nasty little creatures people think this of us so let's embrace it like as women as like marginalized people and I think that it's just like fun and it's a way to kind of turn it into something that is enjoyable and self-referential rather than, you know, being totally, totally serious all the time. I'm wondering if it's a kind of rejection, Halima, of the wellness industry, if this is kind of post self-care, self-care, if you like. Definitely. I think people are, as I said before, like disillusioned by it or bored by it or like people realize that it's not like a realistic way of living like you know we have different things that happen within our day different problems different issues under capitalism so it's not like realistic to be this kind of wellness goddess

every day like it's just not the way people live so I think people are kind of just like yeah this isn't for me now I was racking my brain earlier to think what the most goblin thing I've done is and I think I'm just a bit dull. Have you either of you got a good example of a goblin thing you've done? I mean, I think goblin mode is quite dull. Like that's kind of like the joy of it. Like, again, I clean a lot and I wash a lot and I tidy a lot. Do you know what I mean?

I'm absolutely a gross girl. So, yeah, I have this chapter in my book that's coming out called like inside all of us is a gross girl and it says you know how we like all pick the scabs and pretend we don't like we all love picking like squeezing our spots and pretending we don't like we all look at parts of our body and be like these are absolutely like horrible and disgusting and we don't want anyone to know but we all do the exact same thing and I think that's what makes us goblins it's like oh it's kind of like that fear, isn't it? That inside of us, there is just like this horrible, gross person that we are just doing all of these things

to conceal from the world. But I think it's time that we're a bit more honest about it. It's a fair point. Thank you both so much for speaking to me this morning. Ione Gamble there, writer and editor-in-chief of Polyester Zine and Podcast. We also heard from Halima Gibral, who's writer and editor of Ashamed Zine.

Lots of you getting in touch with us this morning. Barbara says, Why do people take pride in being slovenly? Why can't anyone say my house is spotless, clothes washed and shopping done? What is wrong with that? Lara says, I couldn't have possibly let my inner goblin out

whilst my husband was alive. It's taken me three years of his absence to fully relax. Now, living on my own, working from home, the house is a lot less tidy, and if I'm not going out, I'll forgo showering, but only if my pits pass the sniff test. Lara, I'm delighted that you put that last bit on for us. Aunt Misha says,

my best inner goblin moment is staying in bed for an entire week during a breakup, listening only to Shirley Bassey songs and drinking a bottle of ouzo kept under the pillow. Misha, thank you for sharing that. You can share yours on the text on 84844 or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, the UK government has been told

to stop matching lone female Ukrainian refugees with single men. The UN has intervened following concerns that women and sometimes children are at risk of sexual exploitation. Under the government's Homes for Ukraine scheme, British hosts must link up with refugees themselves, leaving tens of thousands of people to resort to unregulated social media groups to connect. More than 20,000 people in Britain have applied to host refugees under the scheme, but just 28,500 visas have been issued so far. Well, in a moment, we're going to speak to Louise Calvey,

who is Head of Services and Safeguarding at Refugee Action. But first, let's speak to Shaima Bakht, who is a reporter at The Times newspaper. She posed as a 22-year-old Ukrainian woman online and within minutes was inundated with inappropriate messages. Shaima, thank you for speaking to us this morning. Thank you. Nice to be here. So tell me, first of all, where did you post

and what were the responses you were getting? So we posted on the largest Facebook group, which is an unofficial way of matching Ukrainian refugees with UK hosts who have homes that they, you know, would like to give, um, to, to these refugees. Um, and we, yeah, it was initially a, well, I actually reached out on that group as myself, as a reporter to ask women if they had any issues. Um, and I found that there were quite a few who sent me screenshots of, um, as well as public messages from men saying that they wanted a wife or they wanted, you know, a 30 to 40 year old woman or they were looking to share their bedroom with someone. But we had a hunch that that would be a lot more insidious if it was, you know, in the private messages.

Those were the messages that were put out on the group that were being kind of cleared by admins and other women who were volunteering their time to try and keep the group safe. Yeah, we thought that we would go into those DMs and we did find some pretty shocking things within minutes as you said we were instantly messaged by and this is not in itself you know necessarily a risk but there were about 40 you know single men who very openly said that they lived with no one else but within that group there were also men who were you know had had very I think uh risky um exchanges on offer and you know for the sponsorship um yeah did you get any positive messages yeah we definitely did we we did get positive messages. But the thing was, you know, we posed as a young female refugee who made it clear that she was coming here alone. And instantly we found that in our DMs, the overwhelming majority were single men.

That's that is the truth. We had a lot of great people reaching out. And and it's really lovely to see that there are those options out there. It's just an issue of being on social media where it's just so hard to regulate, there's always going the offers, you know, given by families to a lone Ukrainian woman. They came with jobs, they came, you know, with an ideal location in central London. And, you know, there were so many promises, people would say things like these, some of these men would say things like, I can take care of you, I can give you anything you want in the UK. And for a woman who's fleeing you know a war-torn country with nothing that is a very enticing offer and for someone who's coming alone um but it there were there were some you know some messages that genuinely sent shivers down my spine because um it was clear that even when even with some of the men who weren't saying,

and there were men who said that they wanted sex in exchange for the sponsorship, for this home and for all of this help. But even some of the men who didn't say that outrightly said things that were, in my opinion, as a woman, equally terrifying. And I've spoken to Lou Calvi, who you're going to talk to in a moment, who found these to be massive signs of potential risk where men...

Sorry, go on. No, no, I was going to say, well, I want to bring in Louise, but Shaima, do stay with us because I'm keen for you to still be part of this conversation. So Louise Calvi is Head of Services and Safeguarding at Refugee Action. Louise, were you surprised with the speed with which people got in touch with Shaima, the volume and the bluntness of some of them? No, no, bluntly, I wasn't surprised. Shaima and I spoke, I think, a couple of days before she started to get those responses.

And I think that I sort of briefed Shaima that I was aware that this was happening and the level of risk. And I think Shaima sort of probably thought, well, surely not, surely, surely not. And so I sort of pointed her towards some of those Facebook groups. And then she kindly got back in touch a couple of days later to explain some of the messages that she'd received and they were devastatingly predictable. We are hearing these reports to an alarming degree

to the extent we're so worried that we actually, Refugee Action along with 15 other refugee and trafficking, anti-trafficking charities wrote an open letter to Michael Gove on the 26th of March, warning him about these risks, about some of the stories that we were hearing, about some of the extraordinarily worrying situations that were being advertised as situations of safety to incredibly vulnerable women. And so, yeah, three weeks ago, we warned government about this. Well, Louise, we've obviously been in touch with the government. Let me read you the government's statement.

Attempts to exploit vulnerable people are truly despicable. This is why we've designed the Homes for Ukraine scheme to have specific safeguards in place, including robust security and background checks on all sponsors by the Home Office and local authorities. Councils must make at least one in-person visit to a sponsor's property and they have a duty to make sure the guest is safe and well once they've arrived. So you would hope from that, even with these messages, as awful as they are,

in theory they would never be allowed to take someone into their home because they would fail those checks. Yes, but unfortunately the practice doesn't follow the theory um the government are quite right they have placed an expectation on local authorities that at least one in-person visit should be done but there's no uh obligation on local authorities to do that prior to the arrival of the refugee so it says uh the guidance says your best endeavors to visit but before the arrival but it doesn't require it. And that's a key. So we say, we're saying to government, there are a few simple steps that

you can do to make this safer. First of all, stop unregulated matching, stop Facebook matching. It's not difficult. You've got a complex visa process. You could quite easily, within that visa processing application framework, have a look at the match, make sure it's regulated, make sure it's come through a trusted provider. You could absolutely require local authorities to do a face-to-face visual inspection on the home and the host before arrival. And if you can't do that, you should be requiring the local authority accommodate that refugee in a hotel until that they can get to the property to do that face-to-face. Do you think it's a bit of a blunt tool, though, to say that no single men should put up women?

Because, you know, there's going to be people out there who are listening saying, well, I would love to help and I've got a house, but I happen to be a man who live on my own. Is it fair to just say no single men should be allowed to help? I do think it's a blunt tool. Yes, I completely understand why UNHCR yesterday came out and made that recommendation. And I think they've done that because the government have ignored us for three weeks. They've ignored these risks for three weeks and they're not to the to the process that they've developed I think banning all single men is a blunt tool to address a risk let's remind ourselves as Seema mentioned the vast majority of people that want to do that are coming from a position of generosity and wanting to help with the very best of intentions. There is a very, very small minority of people that are

incredibly dangerous that are in this system. And there are more nuanced, more powerful and impactful ways of addressing those risks than banning all men from doing that. However, in a situation where government aren't listening to the experts around this, they're not listening to UNHCR, they're not listening to the refugee and trafficking charities, you then reach the point where you say, well, actually, do we have to remove all single men from this system? And that would be a pity because there are single men that really do want to help and not all single men are predators. Of course, of course. And people who want to help and really change the lives of these people who are fleeing absolute horror. Before I let you go, briefly, can I just ask you about another story about refugees in the news today?

The Home Secretary, Priti Patel, is launching this trial scheme to forcibly remove single men arriving in Britain via channel crossings and send them to Rwanda. I know from my experience of speaking to people, migrants who've crossed, many single men come over first, they settle in the country and then they try to bring their families over safely afterwards. Is there a danger with this rule that men will decide to come with all of their families and make those channel crossings because they fear otherwise their family won't be able to get to Britain? Without doubt, we're going to see different patterns in those dangerous crossings. Because one thing is for sure, that the proposed pilots from government this morning will not prevent those dangerous crossings. It will just make them more expensive for people, more dangerous for people. There will be more human traffickers and smugglers. So, yes, absolutely, there's a massive risk that you're going to see more women and children make those crossings and smugglers. So yes, absolutely there's a massive risk

that you're going to see more women and children make those crossings and climbing into boats. We should also be mindful of the fact that many single men are fleeing torture. It's not just a device to get your family into the country as well. Of course. Listen, Louise, thank you so much for speaking to us.

I'm very grateful to you. Louise Calvey is Head of Services and Safeguarding at Refugee Action. We also heard from Shaima Bakht, who's a reporter at The Times newspaper. She posed as a 22-year-old Ukrainian woman online and was inundated with inappropriate messages from men. I just want to read you another statement from the government. The Welsh Secretary, Simon Hart, said this morning,

part of the plan which lies behind this, and this is about removing single men to Rwanda who try to make the crossing via the channel, is to make sure we more properly and more fairly distinguish between asylum seekers, refugees and economic migrants. And I think that distinction is really important. We have a better reputation than some people will give us credit for by the way we've been able to look after Syrian, Afghani, Ukrainian, Hong Kong asylum seekers and refugees. Now, you may well know my next guest for being one half, maybe the much shorter half, of the judging duo on the BBC's Great British Sewing Bee. There's no dropped hem or dodgy pattern match that gets past Esme Young.

She has been at the cutting edge of the fashion industry for over 50 years. She launched her own label, Swanky Modes, back in the 70s, dressing stars like Grace Jones. She also dressed Bridget Jones in the movie. And in her new book, Behind the Scenes, she recounts the iconic outfits and the raucous parties and how she landed her most high-profile gig on the sewing bee in her 60s. Esme is here with me in the studio. Thank you so much. Thank you. No, it's a pleasure. pleasure I loved reading your book I found it absolutely fascinating so many brilliant anecdotes um and I mean you got into sewing pretty young and you made some pretty outrageous outfits I remember you writing in the book that your mum had to lock her wardrobe at one point because you just wanted to cut everything up excuse me for coughing um yes I just loved dressing up, basically. That's what I did. I dressed up.

And when I was a teen, that was as a child, when I was a teenager, I would creep into her wardrobe, take stuff out and wear it and chop it up. And she had this fabulous Edwardian dress that I think must have belonged to her mother or great grandmother. And I was desperate to get that out of the wardrobe and chop that up. But she made sure I couldn't get my hands on that. But you were very skilled. I mean, you went to boarding school at the age of five but at seven you made your first gathered skirt yes well at school I mean the first thing I started doing we were taught to do was cross stitch and embroidery we did darning what else did we do knitting I can remember knitting this jumper which was two squares and to teach us the different stitches.

At the bottom, we did the rib. In the middle, we did stocking stitch. And at the top, we did moss stitch. Wow. So you had a training early on. I want to ask you about swanky modes, because this was female empowerment at its best. You and friends getting together and making the clothes you wanted to make, but also that weren't available for other women who wanted a similar style.

Yes. I mean, thinking back on it, we were the only company, or whatever you want to call us, that were for women no men and I think even nowadays that doesn't happen and it was all about wearing what we making we wanted to wear and you know when we made the lycra stuff people went oh no it's all for men and we went no it isn't it's for us it's absolutely for us and we can wear what we want and we can show off our bodies if we want to but it's for us it's not to attract men it's for having disco dancing and your first I mean tell us about your first creation because it was a c3 macintosh well we bought this shower curtain fabric from actually we bought a whole street fabric car upholstery fabric and i had a leopard skin all in one which was fun i haven't got it anymore, unfortunately. But one thing that really, really was important for Swanky Modes,

just coincidentally, was we made the Macs out of chow cans and they were all transparent. Some of them had prints on. And so me and Mel, who was one of us we used to get tarted up and we'd go around with clothes to magazines and show it to the fashion editor yeah and one of them we took we showed them to was somebody called Caroline, who was the fashion editor on a magazine called Nova, which was an absolutely fabulous magazine. And she loved, we did quite a few things for her,

but she loved the plastic masks. And they were having a magazine coming out called April Shower in Nova. That was the theme. So she thought it was perfect. So she said, would we do some drawings? So I did some drawings with naked women underneath because actually to do real clothes underneath would have been really difficult.

Liz has just messaged in now on Twitter, I still miss swanky modes. It was a treasure trove, a gem, shopping Saturday afternoons to wear out clubbing in the evening. Oh, that's fabulous. I mean, you made some incredible clothes. I mean, you dressed Grace Jones, didn't you? You did some alterations for Cher and was asked to do some more work

and you say you regret not saying yes. Oh, I do. For some reason, she was such a nice woman and I did, it was when she was in London making the record with the funny voice thing. Yes, the auto-tune. Yes. Yes.

And a friend of mine recommended me to her. And I did a lot of alterations. And she was so nice. Then about six months later, her assistant rang me up and said, would I make some things for her and do more stuff? And I was very busy at the time, but I don't know why I said no. I really, really don't.

And I think in a funny sort of way, I was terrified. Even though she was such a nice, nice woman, I really regret it, really regret it. You've also hung out with some incredible people. Yes. You sat on a windowsill watching a carnival with David Bowie. I certainly did. You went to rap parties and danced with Dustin Hoffman.

Oh, God, yes. I did. I mean, it sounds like you've had some amazing experiences with some incredibly famous people who you met through fashion? Yes, I did. Absolutely. Oh, and have you heard of somebody called Divine? Tell me more. Well, she was a man who dressed up as a woman and he was at the Andrew Logan Miss World that was filmed.

And we were backing singers and we had these Lypra outfits and blonde wigs and conical bosoms made out of leather. And she called us her daughters, which was absolutely fabulous. And I'm also very jealous because I know that Kirsten Dunst flew out first class to LA. And unfortunately, we don't have time to talk about that because I want to talk about the Great British Sewing Bee. Okay. Which, I mean, you are kind to the contestants, but your eye for detail. I know you say in the book that you hate it when someone makes a mistake and tries to put a bow on it to cover it. Just kind of own your mistake.

Yes, absolutely. Make a feature of it. And I think why I can see these things is because I teach. And I see, so, well, I've been in the fashion industry for 50 years and sewing and cutting. So I can see these things. And how's it helped you because I know throughout the book you've talked about you you lived in squats when you first started out you said it's never really made you a lot of money the fashion you've done it for the love but purely surely that some of the the TV lure has given you a bit of financial security I know you that you you don't own your own home do you you still live in there? No, I live in Peabody and I've lived there since 83. Of course it has made a

difference financially, but I still don't have loads of dosh and I don't have a mortgage, I don't have a car, you know, I have nothing that you have to spend, oh, except going on holiday. Nice holidays. Yes, that's what I spend my money on. I also spent it on a beach hut. So, yes, you had two beach huts at one point, didn't you? And then one got pulled down and now you have the other. Tell me, do you enjoy being in front of the camera?

I don't know why this is, but I have no fear of a camera. And in fact, Swanky Modes, we were on an arena programme and obviously we had cameras there. But I've never been frightened of a camera. I've no idea why, but I haven't. And that really does come across. Oh, does it? Yes, absolutely, on the TV. It's so nice.

So many messages are coming in here. Sally says, OMG, swanky modes. Best shot window in London. And another one here from Jane. She says, she is fab. It is lovely to hear her anecdotes. So, Esme, thank you so much for coming in. Esme Young, talking to me about her book, Behind the Seams.

Great to see you today. Thank you for listening to Woman's Hour. Good to have your company. I'll be back with you again at the same time tomorrow. There's a story about Vladimir Putin. When he was a teenager, he saw a film that he became obsessed by. He would watch it, all five hours of it, over and over again, and decades later, he'd say how important it was to the life he chose.

It's called The Shield and the Sword, and it tells the story of a Soviet secret agent working at the highest level in the Nazi war machine. The film prompted Putin to join the KGB. What amazed me, he'd say of the film, was how one man's efforts could achieve what whole armies could not. How one spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. This is the story of a spy who has the fate of tens of millions of people

in his hands, told by the men and women who've observed his rise and rise, the Putin experts and the Russia watchers. It's the story of a man who's seen an empire fall and his nation humiliated and who's torn up the global order trying to restore past glory and avenge the slights of the past. I'm Johnny Diamond and from BBC Radio 4, this is Putin, the story of the man who's changing the world. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.