Woman's Hour - Megan Thee Stallion, Fertility Anxiety, Colombian striker Linda Caicedo

Episode Date: August 9, 2023

The rapper Tory Lanez has been sentenced to 10 years for the shooting of fellow musician Megan Thee Stallion. She required surgery to remove bullet fragments from her foot after he shot her following a party in 2020. BBC entertainment correspondent Chi-Chi Izundu joins Clare McDonnell to discuss.Do you have fertility anxiety? Today we are discussing why some women fear they can’t easily have children, despite having no known health issues. The journalist Sophie Gallagher joins Clare alongside Dr Ellie Cannon, an NHS GP and author. 18-year-old Linda Caicedo has been one of the break-out stars of this year’s FIFA Women’s World Cup. The Colombian player’s journey so far includes a professional and international debut at 14, a cancer diagnosis at 15, and a move to one of the most well-known clubs in the world. BBC Sport reporter Emma Smith joins us to explain her meteoric career.Lorna Rose Treen is an award-winning comedian who has taken her one-woman character comedy show Skin Pigeon to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival for the first time this year. Being a performer at the Fringe is fun but can be gruelling – so how does it work? Lorna has recorded an exclusive audio diary for Woman’s Hour to give us a peek behind the scenes. Spiritual healing is extremely popular in many countries in the Middle East and North Africa. But the practice is unregulated and that means women are vulnerable to sexual exploitation. An investigation by BBC News Arabic has uncovered allegations of widespread sexual abuse by healers in Sudan and Morocco. Clare McDonnell is joined by the BBC’s Hanan Razek and Senior Women's Rights Researcher at Human Rights Watch, Rothna Begum, to discuss.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Emma Pearce00:00 Opener 02:53 Megan Thee Stallion 10:42 Fertility Anxiety 25:54 Linda Caicedo 35:29 Lorna Rose Treen 47:53 Spiritual Healing

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Could this be a watershed moment for black women speaking up about the violence they experience at the hands of their partners? The musician Megan Thee Stallion testified against her former boyfriend, rapper Tory Lanez, who shot her in the foot and now a court in the US has sentenced him to 10 years in prison. So how powerful will her testimony prove to be in empowering other women in similar situations to do the same? We'll also be taking a look at fertility today. One in seven couples may have difficulty

conceiving, but 84% of couples conceive naturally within a year if they have regular unprotected sex. So why is there so much fertility anxiety and is it being fuelled by a growing fertility industry of apps and ovulation kits? I want to hear from you on this topic today. Do you have fertility anxiety? Is that you? The idea that you might have difficulty conceiving easily despite having no known health issues. Where do you think that feeling is coming from? We're going to talk about this today. You can text the programme. The number is this on text 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can email us through our website, or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending

on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also, we will take you inside the world of the spiritual healers turned sexual abusers in Sudan and Morocco. Our colleagues at BBC News Arabic have gone undercover and spent a year investigating this story. They'll join us in the studio. Also, England are going to face

Colombia on Saturday in the quarterfinals of the Women's Football World Cup. Of course, the South American side have never got this far before. We'll hear about the team's secret weapon. Linda Caicedo is a warrior, is a survivor, is an inspiration for all Colombian women and men. There you go. She is Colombia's star striker. She's just 18 years old. She's Linda Caicedo, a cancer survivor whose wonder goal helped knock Germany out of the competition. And we're going to be taking you

to the Edinburgh Festival to a young comic taking the festival by storm dressed as a brownie, amongst other things. We listen in on the festival diary of Lorna Rose Treen. She's a comedian on the up who's just been crowned Chortle Awards Best Newcomer. So all of that on the way. But let's start.

You may have seen this in the headlines today, that the Canadian rapper Tory Lanez has been sentenced to 10 years for the shooting of fellow musician Megan Thee Stallion. Now she required surgery to remove bullet fragments from her foot after he shot her following a party in 2020. Megan Thee Stallion is the triple Grammy winning rapper behind hits such as Savage and Hot Girl Summer. Let's have a listen. Now, the shooting polarised the music world and sparked conversation about how black female victims of violence are treated in the music industry and also, of course, in wider society. In a victim impact statement, Megan said, slowly but surely, I am healing and coming back, but I will never be the same.

Let's talk this through with BBC Entertainment correspondent Chichi Azundu. Chichi, welcome. Thank you very much. These two were in a relationship, weren't they? So let's go back to that fateful night. What happened? So these two attended a party with a friend at the billionaire Kylie Jenner's house. She's a beauty mogul. And it was a pool party. They were having a lot of fun. There was a lot of alcohol consumed. And then they decided to leave. And it seemed consumed and then they decided to leave and it seemed to be as they decided to leave an argument ensued between the pair about their music and their lyrics and their type of style of rap then Megan got out of the car and she claims that

Tory Lanez told it shouted dance and then shot her in the foot. And then she had to go and get help. And she had surgery to remove some of those bullet fragments from her feet. She says that basically he then apologised and offered her and the friend money to stay quiet about what happened. Even after the attack, it's reported that he continued to humiliate and re-traumatise her. And it's unusual that she took the stand because initially she wasn't saying that that's what happened, was she? No, she wasn't. She just told her fans on Instagram that she'd been shot in the foot and that she'd or she'd had suffered a bullet wound and needed surgery. She didn't actually go into any detail. Then they took it to their music. They basically battled this it to their music. They basically

battled this out in their lyrics. They were talking about what happened without actually talking about what happened, saying, well, you know what happened and you know what happened and the truth will out. And then eventually it came to court. She then went and did a couple of interviews, one in particular with Gayle King, the well-known US interviewer, and outlined what happened that night according to her. And Tory Lanez continued to, if you like, put her down in social media in particular, which garnered him quite a following in terms of, well, she can't be telling the truth. And that is one fundamental problem that we have in the music industry when it comes to talking to women about

violence is because the music industry, number one, has a lot of men in it, it's very unlikely that you will get the backing and support that you need. And number two, he was a much bigger star in the United States than she was at that particular time. Like the track that you just played, Savage, blew her up because she joined forces with Beyonce and it went worldwide. So she was particularly at the start of her career. And she said that him talking about what happened that night, lying about what happened that night, being derogatory about her on social media, in his music, damaged her career. Yeah, I mean, and this went back and forth, didn't it? In the music that both sides created, there were sort of diss tracks on both sides, weren't there, about this whole incident and this whole court case?

Indeed, since 2020, back and forth, they have both been spitting lyrics at each other about what happened. And nobody has really got to the bottom until the court case. And as you say, until Megan Thee Stallion took to the stand. And in fact, another point of this court case was just before the court case happened, there were tapes that were leaked to social media, which was of Tory Lanez supposedly talking to the friend that was in the car that had witnessed everything, where he basically, without explicitly saying, outlined what happened that night. turning point for Megan because she wasn't going to take the stand she didn't want to make this into a public thing and then she realized actually the power of her position she was a woman who had gone out with a man who had decided to shoot her in the foot for arguing about his style of rap and she was being attacked on social media she was being attacked in his music and she was being attacked on social media. She was being attacked in his music. And she was being attacked behind closed doors, as far as I'm aware,

because in the music industry, it's an incredibly small industry. So she wanted to come out and defend not just her position, but other women that don't have the power and platform that she has in order to say it is important to speak out, especially in the music industry. Yes, and we've had the sentence handed down now 10 years. Director of Victim Services at the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office, Tanisha Wright, spoke to reporters after the sentencing hearing and said this, violence against black women and girls is a long standing national epidemic that has long been overlooked and underreported. And LA District Attorney said after the verdict

that her fame helped bring attention to the issue of violence against women. So lots of people saying, is this case now an important moment, a watershed moment for black women in the US who, you know, up to this point may have felt not the most secure about coming forward and saying this has happened to me. Indeed, it is. She is just one of a number of Black women that

have tried to come forward to talk about the issue of violence, sexual violence, physical violence in the music industry, or just generally a Black woman coming forward. Other examples are Drew Dixon, who made accusations against the founder of Def Jam Records, Russell Simmons, who denied those accusations. There's been other ones in the UK. Ray Black went to talk on Twitter to talk about another rapper molesting her during a red carpet event. I've done a lot of stories about the former Radio 1 DJ, Tim Westwood. It takes a lot for black women to come forward because number one, they never feel believed. Number two, they do not believe in the justice system with the history around racism and police and the court system. And number three, there is a weird code of you do not snitch.

You do not talk about this outside of your community. You do not go and air your dirty laundry. So they do not talk about this publicly. So having someone who would have been seen as a strong woman who could take anything, that's Megan Thee Stallion. Having someone of that caliber come out and say this happened to me and I'm still healing is a watershed moment and it is a stamp and a mark in women potentially coming forward with their own issues. Chi Chi thank you

so much for joining us to talk through this incredibly important issue Chi Chi isn't do their BBC's entertainment correspondent now Now, do you have fertility anxiety? Do you worry you may not be able to conceive naturally? Well, today we're going to explore why some women fear they can't easily have children despite having no known health issues. The NHS says one in seven couples may have difficulty conceiving, but that 84% of couples will conceive naturally within a year if they have regular unprotected sex. However, my next guest says the feelings amongst her and her friends is that it won't happen. It won't happen easily for them. She's Sophie Gallagher.

She raised this topic in a recent piece for the Eye newspaper. We put this out on Instagram and some of you are experiencing those same feelings uh we'll get to those comments in a moment but first welcome sophie thank you thank you so much for coming in and also uh to your side there dr ellie cannon and nhsgp and author as well welcome thank you uh so let's start with you sophie when did you wrote this piece and it got a lot of pickup didn't it um when did you start to feel this creeping anxiety um so as you said I'm some 32 now so probably within the last five years um I think it's not only an aging thing it's also a social thing

looking at friends looking at colleagues looking at sort of what's happening around you. And that adds to it. But I'd say probably within the last five years and it's becoming more pronounced the older I'm getting. And you had a sort of flurry of friends getting pregnant, didn't you? Tell us about that. I feel slightly odd talking about all their pregnancies on the radio. But here we are. So, yeah, so it just so happened that probably eight of my friends in the last few months have all got pregnant around a similar time. And I think that sort of, if not exacerbates the issue, it definitely makes it a talking point among people. And I think what I started to notice was that some of these people have had, you know, quite long journeys to getting pregnant, but

that several of them had not. And those people had sort of said in hushed tones, God, you know, if I thought it was going to be that easy, I might have waited a little longer or might have done this or whatever beforehand. But because of this anxiety, they had felt the need to press on to, you know, to start trying and then well you know the obvious happens um so I think it it made me think that perhaps I wasn't alone in that and and as now you know now the pieces come out we've seen absolutely not alone in that. Where did your friends tell you their anxiety came from that they might not be able to get pregnant that that easily? So I think it's a sort of you you know, it's a multi-factor

thing, right? I think we have to look at the reality of the situation is, which is that women are having children later and later, you know, 50% now of women when they reach their 30th birthday do not have children. And that is a new thing. That on top of that we have social media which is playing a huge role in this not only in terms of people more widely sharing stories of fertility troubles which is a really good thing that's good that we're talking about that more openly but I think that that's not being counterbalanced by people then saying well it was really easy for us because I mean who wants to share that you know um so you've got this slightly skewed narrative and then you also have a lot of uh the these products that we've sort of spoken about fertility testing fertility mot there's a whole cottage industry they're looking to make money and that

obviously thrives on people's anxieties because then you're more likely to spend money investigating any potential things that might be wrong. So I think it's a multi-factor thing. People are getting older and they're aware that that is a factor in declining fertility. Social media is pushing a real narrative of hardship there, which is absolutely the case for people, but really not for everyone. And then you also have these companies that are making money on this and I think that's a vicious cycle those factors combined. Good point to bring in Dr Ellie Cannon so you see a lot of this in your surgery don't you so tell us when people come to you what

are they waving in your face? Yeah so that's why I was really pleased actually to read Sophie's article to sort of blow open this whole issue because I've worked in the same GP surgery for 15 years so it's quite easy for me to sort of see the trends and see what's happening. And what I've really noticed over the last few years that women who are trying to conceive in the main will only do that with the help of an app. And as you said, in the statistics, sort of at the start that the majority of couples will get pregnant naturally just by having regular intercourse throughout the year, throughout the month, whatever it may be. And yet there is certainly what I've noticed anecdotally,

a need and an anxiety coming from people having to time intercourse with the app, testing ovulation is very, very mainstream now. And all of these things, which absolutely sort of spoke to Sophie's piece about what is happening for women of this age group and this anxiety that they're being driven into. What are the facts then? That's what we need to get to when it comes to fertility. How many people can expect to have complications

when looking to conceive? Yeah, I mean, this is what everybody really needs to hear. So Sophie and I were talking about the fact that women are sold this narrative that your fertility falls off a cliff. And that's often the expression used after the age of 35. So to give people an idea, a woman who is 30, who is having unprotected sex for a year with her partner, she has about a 70% chance of getting pregnant after a year. And there'll be many more who get pregnant a bit after a bit longer, maybe 18 months, maybe even two years. Naturally, I'm speaking with no aids, no help whatsoever. Once we're at 40, it has fallen, of course it's fallen, but actually it's fallen to 40%. So it isn't zero. And I think what Sophie's piece speaks to is the fact that

women are being sold the idea that it falls to zero. And actually, if you look at some of the technologies that women are buying into, like egg freezing, like fertility testing, actually the stats really show you're better off just relying on yourself and going down the natural route, to be honest. And as you were mentioning, Sophie, there's a whole industry here. People are making a lot of money out of this. So, you know, what do you think to that then? Are a lot of your friends, were they saying that? Were they? Did they show you the apps? Did they have the ovulation kits?

So, so not a lot of my friends, but lots of the case studies who I spoke to for the piece, and then people subsequently emailing me had said, you know, I'd spent, you know, hundreds of pounds on this. And then actually, we were talking about this before, I'd taken it to my GP, and they're not doing anything about it. And that puts people, you know, people in a really difficult position, because doctors don't want to act on this single piece of evidence from, you know, private testing. But equally, people feel I think, I think a lot of this is about people feeling completely disempowered, not feeling fully educated about fertility, those fears being capitalized on by people looking to make money. And there's a lot of money to be made there.

And also just a general climate of anxiety that people feel around the economy and the climate. And, you know, lots of people of my generation graduated into a recession. They're struggling with housing. They're struggling with a lot of those traditional milestones. And fertility is just another thing to be aware is slipping away from you um you know and trying to proactively do something about that um i was speaking to a professor of reproductive medicine at university of southampton professor chung and she was telling me that people coming into her clinic now she estimates a third to a quarter of those people

do not need to be there they are coming in they are single people they're not in a couple they're not trying they are coming in and saying please just tell me it's okay just just do some tests and tell me it's okay it's a reassurance thing um and i think that again speaks to this sort of generalized anxiety about this so to back to the facts again uh Dr. Cannon, fertility and hormones levels, your hormone levels will fluctuate throughout your monthly cycle. So what can these sticks and these apps tell you that a doctor can't tell you? Well, I mean, that is the most pertinent question because they're not telling people what people think they are. So there's lots of tests out there. AMH, which is

talked about as egg reserve, which is the sort of longevity one, how long can I wait, things like progesterone, looking at when you might be ovulating. We look after, the medical profession looks after 25% of infertile couples who will have all of their tests normal. So what that tells us is that these tests are not, they're not the be all and end all. You can have your hormones tested and they'll be absolutely fine. You'll be sold false reassurance and actually your infertility will come from your partner or from your fallopian tubes, which wouldn't have been picked up on one of these tests. Likewise, as you rightly say, hormone levels fluctuate, women's cycles are different, medication can change things, all sorts of things can change

things. So you might be sold actually really sort of fear when actually you'll get pregnant very easily. I mean, this is a text. We've had lots of messages since we put this out on Instagram. One woman on Instagram says you hear a lot about fertility issues, but as a 20-something, I heard nothing about all the people who don't struggle to conceive. This definitely made me more anxious and left me in shock when I conceived easily, which goes to your point, Sophie.

I should have waited a couple more years financially. That's the point they're making. Absolutely. And I think also this is the thing, like I understand no one wants to put on Instagram, well, actually we had a really easy time, came off the pill two weeks ago and here we are, but who wants to hear that?

You know, I understand that, but I think it does mean that we're presenting this skewed narrative and there's a lot of different factors out there waiting to capitalise on this fear. I think there's this vacuum of information. Yes, because it may come across as smug, but actually what you need is... Or just gratuitous oversharing, information. Yes, because it may come across as smug, but actually what you need is...

Or just gratuitous oversharing, perhaps. Yes, exactly. We don't need to know. Not everything, anyway. Dr. Ellie, another message here for you. I've been on the pill for 15 years and worry that this will affect my ability to conceive. What is your advice to people worrying about that, for example?

Is that a genuine worry? It is a genuine worry because any medication, hormonal or not, could have an impact on our health and our ability to conceive but the honest answer to that is nobody is going to be able to give an answer to whether or not you would be able to conceive until you actually try to conceive and that is the truth of it and that's the truth of it even if you go through egg freezing you are not guaranteed a baby at the end of that. There is unfortunately no guarantees in either direction. And I think from, you know, just from what we've already said so far, one of the issues here is certainty. We all crave certainty and we live in an incredibly uncertain world, as Sophie has said, and we want to know this is going to be OK. I think there's also some broader things there around health optimisation. Aside from fertility, you know, this is an increasingly huge market.

Optimisation in every sense, we're sort of sold the best version of ourselves. And this is another facet of that. I want to be doing everything within my power to make sure that I am mitigating anything that might come down the track when I feel anxious about so many things. And unfortunately, this is just a particularly emotive and anxiety- certainly being traded on. I mean, just to you, Dr. Ellie, these clinics that we were hearing about, what can they test for that would give you any kind of certainty? So there's a range of tests which can all sort of be used. As I said, some blood tests like AMH and progesterone. If you really wanted your fertility looked at properly, people would have to look at your general health your partner's health your ovaries what the follicles look like absolutely everything but as i've said we see couples over and over again where all of these tests are normal and 25 percent of infertile couples will not have blood markers or tests which will show them to be infertile so really

if somebody's looking at all of this testing, they have to go in absolutely with an understanding that this is not a guarantee, it's no insurance policy. And if you're looking at something like egg freezing, which is incredibly expensive, it's incredibly emotive, ask the clinic about the chances of actually getting to a live birth. When you look at these, we actually see that a lot of the statistics are around thawing those eggs. So literally defrosting them and how successful that is.

But that does not make a baby. So you actually have to look at the stats for live births to really get the facts. It's been absolutely fascinating. Sophie, what would be your final word to women of your age listening to this with everything you've looked at and all the people you've spoken to? I think I have no medical advice to offer. But as someone who has felt this too, I think it's you know, you're not alone. You're not alone in feeling this. And although obviously some people do have problems, remember that a lot of the anxiety is being fuelled by people who have a vested interest in making you feel scared because they could make money off of it. So and if you're really worried, talk to a doctor.

Great advice. Thank you so much. Really interesting discussion. Sophie Gallagher there who wrote that column and Dr Ellie Cannon as well. You can get in touch with us. Plenty of you are on this topic as well. I was 30, tried for years to get pregnant. I got IVF at 35. The specialist said, what were you thinking? Didn't you know your fertility drops by half after 35? I think we've already disproved that. I did have an IVF baby at 37 and a second baby at 39.

Naturally, also OAP was on my medical notes. I can only apologise on behalf of the medical profession. You don't need to take that bullet. Thank you so much for coming in and do continue the debate with us on social media this morning. Now, in a few weeks' time, thousands of students will be heading off to university to start the next chapter in their lives.

But rising living costs mean money is tighter. Making the decision to leave home can be much harder. So if you're planning for your child to live at home next year because moving into student accommodation has become unaffordable, we want to hear from you or them. You can text us.

The number is this, 84844. And you can email through our website or on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour. If you want to get involved in the fertility discussion, that text is the same number, 84844. Now, let's talk football. England's Lionesses will face Colombia in the quarterfinals

of the Women's Football World Cup this Saturday. This is the first time Colombia has ever reached this stage of the tournament. Their biggest weapon, you may have heard of her, 18-year-old striker Linda Caicedo. Linda is the breakout star of the World Cup. Her so-called wonder goal against Germany was one of the most shocking moments of the tournament so far. It's well worth a watch if you haven't seen it already. Some Colombian football fans living in the UK spoke to Women's Hour to share their thoughts on Linda. Linda Caicedo is a warrior, is a survivor, is an inspiration for all Colombian women and men. At such a young age,

she has already overcome so many obstacles and she still is giving all her passion to every match she plays. We love you, Linda. Linda Caicedo has undeniable talent. She has achieved so much already and she's only 18. And there's so much from her to come. And I can't wait to see what she can accomplish in the future. For girls and women in Colombia, it is important to see that a woman is the star of football now

and that we are no longer talking only about men. Well, those were the voices of Angie, Alejandro and Paula. I'm joined now by BBC Sport reporter Emma Smith, who's written about Linda's meteoric career. Emma, welcome.

Thanks for having me on. We heard from a few fans there, but give us a sense of what you know that name means to not only the team but the country. Absolutely, Linda Carsello, she's become the poster girl of women's football in Colombia. Colombia, they're a team on the rise as you mentioned they've never been to a Women's World Cup quarterfinal before. But in recent years, they've become a growing power in South American women's football. They reached the final of both the under-17 World Cup, which Caicedo played,

and of the 2022 Copa America Feminina, which is the South American equivalent of the European Championships. And, of course, now reached the quarterfinals of the Women's World Cup. And Caicedo, Linda Caicedo at 18, is already a key player of that team. She's the star of the show for many fans. She's the kind of player... I was at the game that they played at Melbourne Rectangular Stadium yesterday, and whenever she got on the ball, you could feel this anticipation growing. And there is just anticipation, as you say. She scored that incredible goal against Germany. And just whenever she's on the ball, there's belief among Colombia fans that she's going to do something special.

And she normally does. I mean, she's so at ease, isn't she, really, taking on defenders. Her balance is incredible. Her speed is incredible. Her precision is incredible. She has an incredible story, doesn't she? She made her international debut at 14, signed with Real Madrid. But she's had serious health issues too for such a young person. Absolutely. So as you say, she made her international debut at 14. You know, absolute rising star of of colombian football uh but then in 2020 uh in in the middle of the covid 19 pandemic uh she began to feel pain in her abdomen and following tests

uh she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer uh which is obviously a horrendous thing to deal with at any age but for a 15 year old just beginning their professional footballing career could have been absolutely devastating um two weeks after that diagnosis in march 2020 she had surgery to remove a tumor which involved the removal of one of her ovaries uh but fortunately she has been able to recover from that illness and is uh is now is now back she uh underwent six months of chemotherapy uh but was given the all clear and then just days after finishing treatments once she was declared cancer free she was back at training and has worked her way back up to be you know the arguably the breakout star of this women's world cup she is really incredible and i

know she collapsed in training three days before she scored that infamous goal against Germany, but they're saying that that was not connected to her ongoing health issues? That's correct. So you may refer to there was some dramatic footage during the warm-up job. She put her hand to her chest

and lay on the floor during a training session for Columbia. Tess was asked to leave. There was obviously genuine concern, but she was not taken to hospital. And I was informed that she was calling people close to her on the phone, laughing and joking about things. The Colombian manager, Nelson Abadir,

was obviously asked about it. And he iterated that it was down to just stress and tiredness. And, you know, it's obviously a young player and a young player who's gone through uh such a you know health you know battles uh the things that she has um it's worth obviously you need to take care of her but she's starred every single game since then she played 90 minutes against Germany, scored that wonder goal, played the full match against Jamaica yesterday, looked absolutely electrifying. There were some parallels drawn in headlines between the collapse and her cancer, which I do think was a little irresponsible because there doesn't seem to be any link between the two. And fortunately, she seems to be

playing at her absolute best and will be a danger to England, I think, in the quarterfinal. She certainly will. England against Colombia in the quarterfinal this weekend, 11.30 Saturday morning. No matter what the results, it's an historic game for Colombia, the furthest they've reached in Women's World Cup ever. So when you look at this World Cup, the rise of teams like Colombia over teams like Germany, America, does it mark a wider shift, do you think, in women's football? And is this a result of investment that often takes years to come to fruition? Yes, I think it is. There were some concerns about the expansion of this Women's World Cup.

It's the first with 32 teams. And there were concerns about whether there'd be imbalances, whether there would be too many teams making the numbers. That's absolutely not been the case. And Colombia are one of several nations who've had real breakout tournaments. Now, there have been some teams such as Nigeria and Jamaica who've had successful tournaments despite a lack of investment, despite a lack of support back home.

Colombia are not one of those teams. There's been major investments in the women's football programme in the country. It's been proven in their success at youth tournaments. I mentioned the Under-17 World Cup before, where they reached the final. Kaisedo was one of two 18-year-olds in the team yesterday. Anna-Maria Guzman played and provided the assist for the winning goal against Jamaica. And I think that the fact that you look at the eight quarter-finalists, there's only one former winner in there, which is Japan,

who won it once in 2011. I think that that's a good indicator of the gap closing. Six of the eight quarter-finalists have been there before. Colombia and Spain are the exceptions who are the newbies at this stage. But rather than now being a case of one or two nations being well ahead, your USAs, your Germanys, there are now nine or ten elite teams in contention for these major competitions,

which is essential for women's football. It increases the competitiveness. It makes it much more interesting to watch for both fans and for people coming to the tournament during these World Cups. And then, of course, you get stories like Columbia, who have been, as I say, revealed very captain at this tournament. Well, listen, Emma, just a final question to go back to Linda Caicedo.

Who do we have to put up against her to nullify the threat on Saturday morning? Well, Caicedo's played a lot of her games on the left wing, so she would be up against Lucy Bronze, England's right back, and one of England's best players, so that would be a real titanic fight. I think that Colombia would be

well advised to maybe switch Caicedo's wing to maybe play her on their right-hand side, so she's going up against England's left back or left wing back which might give them a bit more joy than against Lucy Bronze. I do think

that England should beat Colombia. I think that England have an all-round better team and I think that Colombia all-round are perhaps not as strong as Nigeria who England of course beat in the last round. But I think England will have to play a lot better than they did against Nigeria.

And if they do, I back them to win. But certainly with a player like Linda Caicedo, Colombia are capable of causing all sorts of problems. And you never know. You never know in this World Cup in particular. You're absolutely right. But let's hope no one's listening from the Colombian squad because that was probably a brilliant tactical advantage you've just suggested there i do

apologize that's all right that's all right we'll wipe it emma thank you so much for joining us bbc sport reporter emma smith thank you so much for everybody getting in touch on the fertility issue uh let's just read this one in i was was, I had a baby at 22. At 30, I was told I would never have another one and broke off an engagement because of it. I married again at 41. We said we'd try for a year. And if there was no baby, we'd buy a holiday home. I was pregnant within a few months

and had a beautiful baby boy at 43. He's 25 now. But did you buy the holiday home? Do text us, 84844. Lots of you getting involved in that discussion. It's lovely to get your texts. Now, today is day six of the month-long Edinburgh Fringe Festival. If you were listening to the show on Friday,

you might have heard about Georgie Greer, who had one person, just one person in the audience, on her one- woman play on its second night being a performer at the fringe is a fun but pretty tough process so how does it all work well here at Woman's Hour we've got you a special behind the scenes peek at what it's like to prepare and head up to the fringe Lorna Rose Treen she's a comic on the up last year she won both the comedy short and stage Awards at the Funny Women Awards and this year she was crowned

Chortle Awards Best Newcomer she's also been shortlisted for the brand new Sean Locke Comedy Award which looks for talented new comedians embodying the spirit of the late great Sean Locke himself from drag kinging which is when female performers

dress in male drag and personify male stereotypes, to clown school, where she says an old man banged a drum and told everyone they were rubbish. Sounds informative. Lorna has had quite a journey to get to the fringe. Here she is, taking us through it. Hello, I'm Lorna Rose Treen. I'm a 28-year-old comedian and I'm going up to Edinburgh Fringe to do my debut comedy show. It's a one-woman character comedy show where I basically play back-to-back characters. I play 12 characters, including two animals, one object. Some of the characters are really cartoony, like a cowboy or a film noir actress, and others are a bit more realised, like my brownie girl guide, who's definitely based on my realised like my brownie girl guide who's definitely based

on my experiences as a brownie girl guide. Across the next few days I'm going to be giving Woman's Hour a little peek behind the curtain and we'll be sharing with you the highs and the lows, the excitement and the nerves and hopefully the post-show celebrations. I wanted to get into comedy originally because as a kid it was just my favourite social currency. I think making people laugh, especially as a young woman, is so fun and so unexpected, especially growing up in the noughties. I mean, nowadays, like, I don't think I've heard someone ever say to me, I don't think women are funny, which is like testament to all the work that female comedians have put in leading up to me doing comedy. But I remember as a kid, like hearing it quite a lot.

And then when I could make people laugh, it felt really political and naughty and I just loved proving them wrong. I studied philosophy at the University of Edinburgh. And whilst I was doing that to lighten my mental load, I did improv. So I got involved with the university improv troupe and that was really really fun we got to perform every night of the fringe and basically since then I've just been desperate to come back with my own solo show but that improv was short form improv so it's character comedy and I think it's a really good way of getting into comedy if you fancied it it's teaches you to be really creative and unpressured with your ideas and to risk and try and fail

and then I went off to clown school in France which is called École Philippe Goliath and it has incredible alumni like Sacha Baron Cohen and Helena Bonham Carter and the great thing about it is that you can just go you don't have to audition and that was really appealing because I think I probably really wanted to go to drama school but didn't think I could get in and that was an amazing experience and I think that really did help me in comedy it helped me like learn to take up space and and like be I don't know take risks really so I came out of clown school performing every single day and you know basically learning to find my idiot and then went straight into the pandemic so I think that's why I came out quite hard into comedy I I really basically for

two years really really wanted to do comedy but had no community or skills so straight out of the pandemic I I started gigging the best advice I could give is just to practically just to do it like there's nothing like just doing it and giving it a go I think that's also why it took so long for women to find an equal footing in comedy. And, you know, we're still not there. And I know it's much easier for white women. But because the, like, community is so important and knowledge is so passed down

that now there's a really strong community in comedy of women. But prior to now, they're really, it's been harder. So I'm on the train on the way up to Edinburgh. We're about three hours into the journey. I'm sat in the stairwell because I didn't want to annoy the other passengers with my monologuing. I'm super excited for Fringe.

I just like to feel really real now. I'm really, really nervous nervous but it's almost so unbelievable to me to be able to get to do this I'm sometimes the only woman on the bill still but it is really really rare and when I am the only woman on the bill I think it's really funny because I'm often dressed as a nine-year-old child in my brownie girl guide uniform so I'll come out and I'll be like looks like I'm the only child on the bill which does split the room but it's a bit of fun. Every character I play is a woman. I've done drag kinging before and I really love it but for this show I just wanted every

character to be a woman. To be fair I also play two animals and one object, which all three of them are generalists. But I just wanted to be, I basically wanted to write funny women characters. And I like being funny as a woman. Before I went to clown school, I often only played men because I think of that like sexist, like internalisation that women couldn't be funny and uh and then when I was at clown school my teacher basically banned me from playing then um and told me that I had to like you know take up this space as a woman and in like a womanly way so I like really harnessed I don't know like femininity and and being funny and feminine at the same time I just just really love it. So now we're walking to our tech rehearsal. The other person with me is my director, Jonathan.

Hello there. And what we're doing on this walk, we're going to do a line run. Yes, we are. And also kind of calm the anxiety of the fact that we open in two days. We've got a few hours in the space to work out what the show looks and sounds like. It's going to be really fun to actually be in the space. I'm quite nervous about... I've got a new character. Well, I've been working on this new character for a bit because she was really bad.

And it's quite interactive for the audience. It's like a netball teacher, based on all of my memories of netball at school. So I'm kind of anxious about doing that in the space. And how are you feeling about being in Edinburgh? It's so nice to be back here. Yeah. Because I went to university here. We both did.

It's really weird to come back as an adult. And the air smells like Cheerios. Do you think you have... Do you think you know the show? Do you think you've learnt it? Yeah. Last night before I went to sleep, I did all of the lines in my head and I got them all word perfect and I wrote two new jokes as well, which I think are really funny. I just got back from doing tech. It was five hours long. We did 1pm to 5pm and just basically

set all the lights. My incredible tech person, person Jake worked very hard while I stood around and did what I was told I'm super excited the next step is doing the first preview so yeah we'll see how it goes everything went smoothly in tech but there's a couple of tricky maneuvers which I'm a bit worried about so we'll see how they go. I think the best thing about being a comedian is definitely getting to bring people joy. At the root of my comedy is, apart from stupidity, is joy and optimism and making people have a really good time and escapism really, especially in the light of the last few years that have been quite heavy and difficult in times now. It's a real pleasure to lift people into other worlds I love the creativity involved as well

I love writing I love sitting and thinking a lot of my characters come from me wanting to deeply desperately be a be like a famous Hollywood actress I think the worst thing about being a comedian is definitely the late nights I am an person, but it even takes its toll on me, to be honest. Especially in terms of a safety point of view, getting home from gigs at night can be a bit scary. It's all right if you've got good company, but it can be quite exhausting. Just constantly having to be really on guard after a gig. It is funny as well, coming home after a gig being absolutely wired

because you've just absolutely killed it on stage or you've bombed but you're still like you've got all that energy from being on stage in front of an audience which never gets less scary and then you come home and uh quite often my my partner's an actor at the moment and and he'll have like a normal bedtime and I'll get into bed and I'll be like just buzzing like wanting to watch The Simpsons wanting to watch cartoons like really really awake and uh it's just really funny having to like at 1am basically just be like and calm down. I am just outside the Pleasance now I am waiting to go in for my show which starts in about just under an hour I'm really nervous I'm really excited and I'm frantically looking through my lines again. Really excitingly we sold out today so I'm gonna have a really lovely big full audience

and I'm just measuring my energy levels now and I've got into the habit of having a full fat soft drink before every single preview. I'm super nervous about one character because she's so new, which is my netball teacher character. So I'm just hoping that I remember all the lines in it and it goes well and is as strong as the other bits in the show. I'm so excited! Thank you for coming to Skin Pigeon!

I did it! I did the first show. And it went really, really well. Sold out crowd. And I just had loads of fun. And I am shattered. I can't believe it's over. Bits went wrong. And I only ruined one joke by stumbling.

So I think that's good. I can't wait to do it again tomorrow. I'm on the Royal Mile now afterwards, just having a celebration going to see some shows I brought my friend Caitlin she came along to the show as well did you enjoy the show?

brilliant so good what was your favourite character? a swimming skateboarder okay yeah I get into a swimming question at one point yeah not to give too much away

I was awestruck. Awestruck. Not necessarily a good thing. Always, is it? Thanks. Well done. We're going to go get a lovely Scottish pint. Sounds like an absolute riot, doesn't it?

And she can still get into her brownie uniform. She is Lorna Rose Treen. We thank her for recording that for us. Lorna's show Skin Pigeon is on at the Pleasance Courtyard in Edinburgh at 4.35 each afternoon until the end of the month. Thank you so much for all of you

getting in touch with your fertility stories. We're talking about fertility anxiety in younger women. And is it because of the rise of the apps, of the ovulation kits? And does it bear out any relation to what your actual chances of getting pregnant are? This text says, fertility anxiety has been in my life for the last few months. As I've just turned 35, I feel a lot of emotions about my age, where I am in life and where others are in comparison but one of the most difficult transitions has been doing a 180 on not trying to get pregnant which has been my aim since

I was 15 very good point uh to now wanting to get pregnant I found this a bewildering time and I've not really had anyone to talk to about all of this thank you so much for sharing your anxieties though with us here at Woman's Hour. And this texter, I was 34 when I had my first child and 42 when I had my second and both times became pregnant within two months of trying. My daughter wanted to get pregnant and was very anxious that she would have difficulty.

As she was 32, I reassured her that she would not have a problem and she conceived in the second month of trying. Thank you so much for all of you for sharing your experiences with us. You still can, the text number 84844. Now, spiritual healing, what is it? Well, it's extremely popular in many countries in the Middle East and North Africa. In Morocco alone, it's estimated a third of the population have seen a healer and the vast majority of them will be women. But the practice is unregulated and that means women are vulnerable to sexual exploitation. Now, an investigation by BBC News

Arabic has uncovered allegations of sexual abuse by healers in Sudan and Morocco. Hannah Reisig is a correspondent for BBC Arabic and has spent the past year investigating the story. Welcome to Women's Hour, Hannah. Thank you for having me, Claire. And also, Rothna Begum is a senior women's rights researcher at Human Rights Watch, also joins us down the line. Rothna, welcome. Thank you. Hannah, let's start with you. Very worrying what you've uncovered. Tell us about spiritual healing. What is it? So spiritual healing, or also what's known

as Quranic healing, is a very common practice in the region, and everybody can do it. I personally, when I was young, my grandmother used to recite verses of the Quran to me before I go to sleep. And that used to make me feel very blessed and safe. But in the last few decades, Claire, this has turned into a huge business. And when we were in Sudan and Morocco, we were told that almost in every other corner, there is a healing shop. If you go online, you'll find so many ads on social media for healers who claim they can heal illnesses or expel evil spirits, which is a common belief in some communities that they think their illnesses are due to the evil spirits or psychological illnesses or problems, emotional issues or problems. So we have discovered that there is, with this practice, there comes a very dark side to it because it's unregulated, that leaves a space for everyone to practice. And there are no regulation that keeps women safe, which opens the door for exploitation of women who go there for help. So you spent months investigating the stories

of abuse. So who did you speak to? How did you find out what was actually going on to sort of confirm those beliefs? So we managed to convince 80 women in both countries to speak to us. They accused over 60 healers of sexual harassment, assault, rape, and manipulating them into sex. And what was really worrying, and I've heard it over and over again, is the fact that many women couldn't actually report that. And it's because they either say that if they do tell their own families, they will be the ones to blame in the first place. If they go to the police, they have no witnesses to what has happened. So how could they go and report it? And some women actually did believe in the power of those healers,

that they can harm them using evil spirits. Let's take a listen, because you sent an undercover BBC journalist to one of the alleged healers. We can hear a clip from the documentary of what she experienced. Let's take a listen. While we were speaking, I suddenly found him next to me. I'll do prayers and recite 5,000 times over prayer beads to find you a solution. He put his hand on my thigh. I pushed his hand away.

Then he put his hand on my stomach and pushed one of his fingers all the way down. With that touch, I got up and left. And you did, Hanan, approach this healer with the allegations against him. What was his reaction? He denied any wrongdoing. So in our investigation in Sudan, three women spoke of this particular healer. He's called Sheikh Ibrahim. So we sent our colleague, the undercover journalist in. She pretended that she needed his help to become pregnant because fertility, by the way, is one of the big issues that women go to healers for help for. And she went in. A few minutes later, he started to touch her inappropriately. And the rest of this clip, you can hear her out of breath. Let's bring in Rothna Begum, now Senior Women's Rights

Researcher at Human Rights Watch. Rothna, a very important research that's been conducted by Hanan. Were you aware this was going on before this investigation? I was not aware of the extent of sexual violence taking place in these practices. I was aware that these practices do exist in the region. Often they're quite exploitative in that they charge women very high prices when they come to them in very vulnerable situations. But I was not aware of the sexual violence that was taking place. Now, I shouldn't have been surprised, though, because when you see this is taking place in a context in which sexual violence is already highly stigmatized, it's already incredibly taboo for women to come forward with it. And then you're in a situation of an

unregulated practice, which is dominated by men as healers, who are then able to use and abuse women in these situations with impunity. Sorry, do carry on. The main thing that really came out of this story, which is a really horrific investigation that's really found this, is that the Sudanese and Moroccan authorities' failure to really deal with this, that these abusive healers are able to operate with impunity because of the state's failure to actually prevent the violence, to investigate it and to prosecute.

Yes, and I know in Suzanne, Hanan, the head of the Family and Society Department at the Ministry of Islamic Affairs was initially reluctant to believe that so many women had reported experiences of abuse. Roshna, what do you think needs to happen? I mean, regulation would be an obvious place to start, wouldn't it? Well, this is a completely unregulated area in which these are individuals not affiliated with a religious institution. So anyone, as Hanan has pointed out, can do this. A woman, any man can really basically set themselves up as a healer.

The issue is that the authorities are refusing to actually investigate this area. They could easily right now go and start an investigation into this situation, do a lot more work, both in terms of investigation, prosecuting these offenders, but also primarily dealing with the stigma around it, really combating the stigma against women who report sexual violence. The other thing to bear in mind is both Morocco and Sudan criminalize relationships outside of marriage. That already deters women from coming forward. And those that do can find themselves prosecuted if the authorities don't believe that it was not consensual. So there are a number of things that authorities really need to be doing to tackle this issue. Final word to you, Hanan. You've uncovered this very important piece of investigative

journalism here. Is it likely that they will be honest and they will look at this and they will examine it and they will introduce regulation? What is your feeling? Well, in Morocco, the reply of the authority was that there is no need for any further regulation and it's up to women to report. These are the words that the Minister of the Islamic Affairs told us. In Sudan, the political atmosphere at the moment, especially after the conflict started back in April, makes it even more difficult because they were thinking about it, but they said the political atmosphere, and just to give a context, we were filming this last year, then they told us the political atmosphere is not allowing this. So now it's going to be even

more difficult. Thank you so much for coming into the Women's Hour studio with this very important story. Hanan Rezik there, correspondent for BBC Arabic. Also we heard from Rothna Begum from Human Rights Watch. You can watch the full film Sex for Healing on the BBC iPlayer. Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. Join Hayley Hassell on Women's Hour tomorrow from 10. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, it's Amit Katwala. And Charlotte Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season two of All Consuming

from BBC Radio 4 is here. In this series, we'll be once again delving into our culture of consumption by examining the services and products that have changed the world. This time, we're looking at houseplants. I fell in love with that madly. The idea of just turning a plant into this giant analogue synthesiser. Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get a chance to understand performance at the highest level.

And tea. It's the connection and the safety cues to your body that it's over and you're safe. And much more. So join us for the second season of All Consuming, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.