Woman's Hour - Meghan and Harry Documentary, Carolynne Hunter, Christmas Family

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

Today sees the release of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex’s much anticipated Netflix series. To discuss Krupa is joined by Catherine Mayer, author of Charles: The Heart of a King and co-founder of the Women’s Equality Party, and the former Royal photographer Jayne Fincher who was the only woman in the press pack with Princess Diana. Yesterday on the programme, we spoke to actor Kate Winslet about her new drama I am Ruth on Channel 4. During that interview, Kate told Emma about a donation she made to pay a soaring energy bill for a child’s life support after being moved by the family’s story. Freya, who is 13, has severe cerebral palsy and relies on receiving oxygen for chronic breathing problems. Freya’s mother, Carolynne Hunter, joins us today.At least nine children across the UK are said to have died recently from complications caused by the Strep A infection. So just how concerned should parents be, and what, if anything, can parents do to protect their children? Professor Devi Sridhar, Chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh, joins Krupa.Sara Collins won the Costa First Novel Prize in 2019 for The Confessions of Frannie Langton, a gothic thriller about a Jamaican maid in 1820’s London. Sara has now adapted her book for television and the four part series is available on the streaming service ITVX from today. Sara joins Krupa in studio.How do you convince your adult children to spend Christmas with you? We hear from Sue Elliot Nicholls who says she’s already preparing for the fact that her son’s will choose their girlfriends family over her and from relationship psychologist Emma Kenny.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Emma Pearce

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and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and thank you for joining us. This morning, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex released their series on Netflix. It's been billed as telling their side of the story. The trailers have already caused a stir with Prince Harry speaking of, I quote, the leaking and planting of stories as part of a dirty game. The series will no doubt do more of the same. The first three episodes have only been up around a couple of hours. Maybe you've already started to watch them. Maybe you don't want to watch them. But wherever you stand on this, we are always keen to hear from you. We're on the handle

at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and on Instagram. And if you want to get in touch via text, you can do so. It's 84844. And of course, there's email via our website. And now we also have WhatsApp. So you can send us a message or audio note there. The number is 03700 100 444. Now, if you were listening yesterday, you would have heard the actor Kate Winslet tell Emma about how she came to pay a huge energy bill for a mother looking after her child's life support after reading about the family online. We're going to speak to that mother, Carolyn Hunter, later in the programme. Also, I'll be speaking to the author

Sarah Collins, whose book The Confessions of Franny Langton won the 2019 Costa First Novel Prize. She joins us to talk about the adaptation of her book for a four-part television series. And strepe, it's causing huge concern in schools and in nurseries after the news that at least nine children have now died from the infection in recent weeks across the UK. Now if you've got young children or you work with young children, you may have many questions. So we'll try and answer some of those questions with the help of Devi Sridhar, who is the chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh. But as I began, the first three episodes of the six part doc series,

Harry and Meghan, were released this morning on Netflix. It's said to be an in-depth look into the couple's high-profile relationship and life after their exit from the royal family. But even before the release, the show caused quite a stir after criticism for allegedly using footage and photos in misleading ways. Netflix and the production company Archwell have not commented, but this has all come within what has really been quite a difficult few weeks for the royals. Here to talk about the impact the show will have is Catherine Mayer, the author of Charles, the Heart of a King. Catherine is also the co-founder of the Women's Equality Party.

And we're also joined by former royal photographer Jane Fincher, who was the only woman in the press pack with Princess Diana. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Catherine, I understand you've already watched some of this, if not all of this. What are your early thoughts? Yeah, I watched it in slightly speeded up version because I really wanted to see it before this discussion. It's gripping. You know, critics, they have many critics. There are many vested interests that play into that. Some of them more justified than others the power to damage the monarchy. You know, this may not always fit with everyone's recollections of the truth, but it's certainly their truth.

And it's extremely powerfully told. The power to damage the monarchy, that is something we will get into in a moment. But Jane, let me bring you in here. As someone who has worked closely with various members of the royal family over the years, you've gotten to know them on a very personal level, including Prince Harry from a very young age.

Your thoughts this morning as that docuseries is released? I suppose my main thought is actually quite sadness, really. I feel really sad that it's, you know, sort of ended up like this because, you know, a lot of my memories of Harry are very happy. And, you know, also I think for me, I'm also very sad that it reflects on the relationship with the press, which, you know, I think is often misinterpreted. Yes, it's certainly going to be very complex and very difficult for those who do know Harry and Meghan and indeed the Royal Family very well.

To both of you here, in the trailer, Harry says that no one sees what's happening behind closed doors. And Meghan goes on to say, when the stakes were this high, doesn't it make sense to hear our story from us? Jane, why do you think they wanted to make this documentary in the first place? Who knows what's in their mind? I mean, it just seems such a strange thing to do. You know, for me, I can't make any sense of it, to be honest. You know, having observed Harry as a young lad with his mom and his father, you know, seeing them out and about, seeing his character as a very bubbly, easygoing boy in those early years, I find his character now very puzzling. You know, see him looking so different, you know, like a personality change. And, you know, whilst I, you know, I think any

of us will understand that the trauma of where he lost his mother is obviously going to affect a young lad greatly. It just seems, you know, it just seems so far removed from that boy that I observed for all those years. It's just, to me, it's very puzzling. And you sound very troubled by it. I am very troubled by it. I certainly won't watch the documentary. I just, yeah, I'm very shocked by it, really, and I feel very upset about it. Catherine, your thoughts. Why did they want to make this doc in the first place? When I was updating my biography of Charles, I made myself read a lot of the press that I hadn't around the arrival right from the very moment of the arrival of Meghan in royal ranks as a as a girlfriend and then onwards and there is um spectacular

and toxic racism in that coverage but also just distortion anyone who has you know and I'm I'm in a very odd position as someone who is both a journalist, but has also been not so directly, but right next to very famous people who are on the receiving end of this. I've seen the way that distortion works and some of it looks quite harmless on the surface, but it really isn't. So an example which gets actually name checked by Harry in one of the episodes is at one point, the Daily Mail confected a fashion item about the supposed protocol for wearing nude tights in royal circles. But that was actually a way to discuss Meghan's skin colour. And again, it was discussed in a supposedly admiring way that she didn't need tights that may look like something very tiny but it there is this incredible accretion of distortion and toxicity in that coverage now I'm also unusual in that I also, because I have very close contacts, both within the courts and former people in the courts,

I don't discount all of the stories about the clashes that led to the allegations of bullying, but I also understand them quite differently to other people. So, you know, one of the problems of a polarized world is you're sort of you tend to be forced into a position of taking sides, which is incredibly unhelpful always. But in this particular instance, you know, I absolutely understand why they want to tell their story i don't feel any huge sympathy for the people whose um role in this they will talk about you know they're already in these episodes there have been um some moments where they have done what you might call school settling with, for example, Meghan's half sister, Samantha Markle. But what I would say is that I also feel sorry for the people who were caught up in the pain of the failure to embed Meghan in the palace, the people who were involved in those allegations and it's not because I want to accuse Megan of anything but because this is an institutional failure where the palace

didn't take responsibility and there's a history of failure to look after staff cover-ups rather than investigations payoffs uses of NDAs yeah so the only people in this where I wish there was a kind of right of reply are those people who wanted to talk about what happened and haven't been able to. And of course, Megan first raised these concerns in that interview with Oprah Winfrey, those allegations of racism, media intrusion. In that interview specifically, she talked about concern from the royal family about her baby's skin tone, her mental health,

thoughts of suicide. And obviously she's expanded on all of these things in this docu-series. And there is a lot to reflect on, certainly. Jane, I know that you grew very fond of Princess Diana and she wanted her sons out of the media spotlights. Alison Pearson writing in The Telegraph says Diana would be appalled at what Harry is doing to William. I'm keen to get your thoughts on where you think Diana would stand on this.

Or do you think she might be proud of the way Harry has, as he puts it, done everything he needs to do to protect his family? Well, that's a very complicated answer, really, because I think on the surface, yes, I think she would have been appalled. She would have been very hurt because, you know, those boys were extremely close and the three of them had a very tight bond. I think that, you know, being a mother myself of two boys, if that happened to my two boys, I would be deeply distressed by it. So that's an obvious answer really there. But to some extent, I think it's a little bit of her in what he's doing because she was, you know, going to take a challenge towards the press, you know, in the years preceding her death.

She had a lot of issues with um you know um the exposure the children had to the media i mean there was the obvious events that were very tightly controlled by the palace and the press office and that was fine but obviously as the paparazzi's began to get more and more out of control she was getting more and more concerned about that which would be natural as a mother but I think so I think there's a little bit of Harry in her that he wants to get his message across I think she would probably be very upset in the manner that he's doing it but you know it's easy for us to say that I personally think there are other ways he could have got his message across I think doing it this way is very extreme um and it's a shame

really that you know he hadn't gone down other avenues and there are as he's got his his memoir coming out which I'm also looking forward to but the other memoirs and the other avenues in terms of having being able to speak directly were really not open to them. So that's what I'm saying. I think you really have to look at the toxicity of the media and the way it interacts with social media to understand why we've got to the point that we've got to here. And in terms of, I understand, Jane,

why you're saying this feeling of the sort of personality change with harry but again this is something that tends to get blamed on on megan whereas what is coming out now is the mental health struggles that he had growing up and so in a in a sense this was something that was going to come out one way or the other. And it's actually very interesting, again, in the documentary, listening to him talk about that. And I'm sure there will be more on that, both in this specifically talk about the pain and suffering of women marrying into the institution and the role that the media has played within that. I'm conscious of time here. Catherine, I want to ask you what kind of a response we can expect from the royal family, especially considering the fact that King Charles' coronation is only months away, really meant to be a show of family unity. What can we expect i actually don't know the answer to that um because they're in something of a no-win situation and although i'm critical of them as an institution for how they

dealt with it and continue to deal with it i don't really think there is anything that they can do you know the the you've already had that response recollections may vary and you know they can do, you know, you've already had that response, recollections may vary. And, you know, they can repeat some variation of that. But what are they going to do? Throw their hands up and admit that there were institutional failings or attack members of the family, which, you know, if you think about how the monarchy survives and what it's meant to do, the monarchy in some sense is supposed to reflect back to the population, an idealized version of the population. It's failing pretty miserably on that front, but it also survives not so much by being popular, though that's the way the polls are always misinterpreted,

you know, 75% popularity. That's not what's going on. It's 25% of people are actively opposed to the monarchy, generally. And then the rest are a mixture of people who are passionate supporters and people who don't care much one way or the other. And the thing about this story is that it is putting off large portions of the population, people of colour, younger people. It is turning people who might have been indifferent into actual opponents of the monarchy. And that's why I say it's damaging. And we're seeing that across social media regardless of where people stand when it comes to the monarchy everyone seems to have an opinion on this and even looking at the

various messages coming through to us here at women's hour so many of you are asking why he did this why they did this others asking why we're doing this here on women's hour well because it's a huge talking point and that conversation is going to continue well beyond us going off air so thank you for your messages and thank you also to our guests Catherine Mayer and Jane Fincher here on Woman's Hour thank you for your time now yesterday on the program we spoke to the actor Kate Winslet about her new drama I Am Ruth on Channel 4 in the interview Emma spoke to Kate about working alongside her daughter whether you daughter, whether you should allow teenagers to have smartphones and even her love of picking her feet. You can listen back to that full interview over at BBC Sounds.

Elsewhere in the interview, Kate told Emma about a donation she had made to help pay a huge energy bill for a mother looking after her child's life support after reading about the family online. Freya, who is 13, has severe cerebral palsy and relies on receiving oxygen for chronic breathing problems and at-home nursing care. Here's Kate describing what happened. I've always felt enormous compassion for the individual who is in a powerless position through the state of the systems. And especially when it comes to mothers and children and the treatment of children and the lack of care, the lack of acknowledgement that a life is a life, a mother has a right to mother that child in their home on their terms. And the fact that this woman, Carolyn Hunter, was going to have to possibly put her child into care because she couldn't afford her energy bills,

I couldn't let that happen. I just couldn't let that happen. I read it on the BBC Scotland news page and tried to track her down, which is actually quite difficult to do because when someone gives an interview or tells their story publicly, there's a lot of protections around them. But using GoFundMe, a fundraising

that I've worked with in the past, using some friends that I've made there, we were able to get in touch with her and say to her, look, we'd like to make a donation. Let's set up a page for you and make that possible. And that was how we were able to set up the fundraising page. I made a donation. And what was remarkable and utterly moving to me is that in the six days following my initial donation, what I had donated more than doubled. Well, I'm glad to say that I am joined now by Freya's mum, Carolyn Hunter. Thank you for joining us, Carolyn. What struck me there was that line that Kate said,

a mother has the right to mother over her children on her terms in her own home. What is your reaction to what Kate had to say there? Yes, she's completely right. And, you know, she's made that happen um for us um you know during during this this really really bad times of energy crisis um you know this has been going on for about eight months now um i'm i'm fortunate because kate's supported me um and a lot of other people throughout the world and the generosity and you know the people that the beautiful kind kindness of everybody and also the warm wishes

for my family you know to towards Freya and the acknowledgement you know of Freya and our situation from you know from everybody across the world has just been absolutely beautiful. But there's so many other families who are not going to be in that position, they're not in my position, and they're worrying as I was four weeks ago until this happened. And it has been quite a sort of, it's been quite a whirlwind of a four week because um

I still I'm still sort of trying to process everything going on you know um but but when but when I'm you know when I'm with Freya I talk to her about what's been happening and I feel like there's a sense of peace now because up until that point you know my my stress levels and my anxiety and the way that I you know that I felt that things were going to be going to go because I didn't have any control yeah for what was going to happen um had I not been supported and obviously my my journey has been campaigning the government who should be paying towards people's um energy bills who have this situation that i've got but you say you're a european now because before you had no control and that would have surely taken you away from

mothering your child being there for freya yeah yeah i mean that a lot of a lot of the past eight months has been um I work I work a lot of hours got quite a um an intensive job um and you know I've got other children I've got older children as well they need me and you know Freya Freya needs needs me um more than anybody um and you know it's been difficult because I also have a lot of staff, NHS staff and my own staff that I've you know I've got I'm an employer as well because I employ my own staff I've got a lot going on you know within my life and you know I think for me it's just been really difficult because I've had that extra stress to deal with of thinking how am I going to actually afford, and I've not

been able to afford the bills anyway but we were getting through but I think it's coming to a point because we didn't know because there was a lot of chaos with budgets and the government

whether you're coming or going financially. Yeah, so you're getting all these different sort of spreadsheets of how much it's going to cost in the future. It's just been so hard, hasn't it, to make head or tail, yeah, exactly, of these numbers that have been coming our way. And I thank you for your honesty because I'm sure there are many families listening who can totally relate to what you're saying, that the financial pressure on them right now

is taking their attention away from family matters that need their attention. Let's talk about Freya a bit, what she's like. Tell us about her condition and the kind of care that she needs. So Freya, she has severe cerebral palsy, so she's completely immobile. She's not able to move herself at all. So she has very chronic respiratory problems.

And that's sort of the main part of Freya's care. So Freya doesn't have a tracheostomy, but she has a very difficult airway. And we, as our care team, we provide her with a lot of intensive chest physio. And, you know, so that's like nebulisers to loosen off secretions so that she can cough them up properly. And if she doesn't, if she isn't able to do that, then, you know, she could block off and choke. And, you know, I don't even want to think about what could

happen and those those um episodes can happen at any time and you know when we talk about the energy crisis we also talk about the the outages as well that have been you know planned outages that there's been a lot of um media um press about that as well and that is a big worry for our families because if we don't have power to power our equipment then that's going to that's going to be a massive problem and obviously the NHS is in a lot of crisis just now with strikes and you know shortages of staff so you know the worries that we have on top of not being able to afford our bills and looking after our children who are very, very health compromised, it's just not good to be dealing with that every day. And I think, you know, it's intensive care.

You know, if you imagine what it's like in an intensive care ward, that's what it can be like in our house at times. And you describe it so, so beautifully there in terms of the efforts you put in. But it is hard to ask for help. I can only imagine what you're going through. But that's a huge step on your part. And maybe there are others listening

who don't have the courage to do that. Yeah, yeah. The thing is, my campaign from March was the government and I was managing to reach the media. So I was managing to reach, I was going on to radio shows, I was going on to the TV, I was doing, there was a lot of journalists doing some reports in newspapers. And I also managed to get a question into the First Minister in Scotland

to see how are you going to support our families? And of course, the First Minister came back and said that the UK government need to do more. So, you know, in terms of asking for help, I've been asking for help, but at no point did i want to ask the public and people across the country to support me with my energy bills that you know that there was a lot of people who did however um contact me and asked me if they could give me their their 400 pounds or um you know they were getting back from the energy companies. And also

there was a few people who had said they wanted to give me their disability payment of £150 because they felt that Freya needed it more than they did. But you wanted that support to come from the government and I can certainly hear that message coming from you and the government has said that they have

put support in place for this winter for the most vulnerable households plus an additional disability cost of living payment i know that you're shaking your head there we don't have time to explore that in depth with you right now but we appreciate your honest account and we wish you and freya a very wonderful and peaceful christmas with the rest of your family thank you for joining us carolyn thank you there are reports in the papers this morning of the nh NHS being overwhelmed with parents concerned with strep A. The Health Secretary Steve Barclay has urged parents to be vigilant for signs of the bacterial infection and has insisted that there is no shortage of antibiotics. Strep A is a

common infection in children and most cases are said to be mild, but at least nine children across the UK have died recently from complications caused by the infection. So just how concerned should parents be and what, if anything, can parents do to protect their children? Earlier this morning, I spoke to Professor Devi Sridhar, who is Chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh. Yeah, so strep A is a common childhood infection that circulates through schools. What we're seeing is that sometimes the bacteria can get into the bloodstream and this can cause severe illness. And that is what the concern is about, given that a number of children have died of it. So I think right now there's awareness raising to parents of

the early signs for it. And also GPs looking to move earlier to prescribe antibiotics because we do have an effective treatment. But it's about getting to it early enough. As you've said there, there is concern. There is huge concern. All I have to do is look into the WhatsApps of the various classes my children are in. And there are parents openly saying that they are really, really worried. What should parents be looking out for? Well, I guess the early signs are a fever, a really awful sore throat. So not your usual kind of coldy sore throat, but one where the child does not want to eat or drink.

As well as rashes, which can be pink on white skin, but on darker skin, it can just look like sandpaper bumps. So it's not necessarily reddish on different skin tones. And the child looking unwell. And at that point, you know, do go seek medical assistance, you know, call a GP, the threshold, keep it a bit lower. It's not usually a cough. So that's one thing that's distinctive. But it's these telltale signs. And fortunately, if you are able to get antibiotics within the first 24 hours, most children do get better quite quickly. But that's important. You just said there that strep A is not usually associated with a cough. Exactly. So I think it's slightly different to what you call it for seasonal illnesses,

because there are a lot of bugs circulating right now, a lot of coughs, colds, things that have come back since the pandemic restrictions were lifted. And so in a way, we're back to where we were in 2017, 2018, 2019 winters. And that feels unusual after several years where children haven't been as ill and we haven't had things like RSV and flu and strep circulating as they are now. But you can understand how difficult it is for parents because this is the season where kids get bugs if they go to nursery school, especially little ones. And that dilemma that parents are faced with, how do we know that this is strep A? And I know that you're saying go to the doctors, but if there is someone at home whose child has got a cough

and they are worried, and as you say here that coughs are not usually associated with strep A. What is your guidance to them? Well, I think right now it's really, you know, most parents know their children really well. If the child look extremely tired, is dehydrated because they're not drinking, has a high temperature, has rashes, these are all the signs. And right now, given we do know strep A circulating, it's better to go with, actually, this is likely to be strep A. Let me go see someone. And now we are seeing GPs and other medical practitioners lowering the threshold in which they give antibiotics because clinical diagnosis is hard at an early stage, and it can take some time for throat swabs to come back from labs with a positive result. And so they're saying, well, actually, let's just get the child started

on penicillin just in case it is strep A. We do know it is circulating. We do know we are seeing a rise in cases. And so it's better to assume it's that rather than it's not. We are hearing, of course, that various NHS organisations are being overwhelmed with parents and their concerns about strep A bringing their little ones in. Equally, though, we heard just this morning from the Department for Education saying that parents are being told to send their children to school, even if a friend has strep A. As a medical professional, what is your take on that? Well, I think right now the difficulty is that we do know strep A

is circulating. And actually, there are statistics out there which say that if you would swab five children randomly, one would have strep A in their throat, largely asymptomatic cases. So again, it's coming back to that balance between disrupting education, having children out of school, but also obviously not wanting to, you know, infect other children, make them unwell. And that's the continual balance in public health. That's quite the number. And staying with numbers, we've had at least nine deaths of young children from strep in the UK. But can I get a sense from you as to how this compares to previous years? Well, I think we're really going back to in terms of number of infections to kind of 2017, 2018. So several years before the pandemic.

And I guess the reason it's making headlines, it's unusual in Britain to have children dying of infectious diseases. Luckily, we don't have kids dying of measles and pneumonia and the typical causes of child death in poor countries. Largely, children die in Britain of things like cancer or congenital conditions or injuries like poisonings or drownings. And so I think it's why we're seeing a strong and robust response, which is saying, well, things like cancer or congenital conditions or injuries like poisonings or drownings. And so I think it's why we're seeing a strong and robust response, which is saying, well, infectious diseases, we know how to manage these. We have treatments. So any child death is unacceptable. We need to find a way to get on top of this and make sure there's awareness and also a health system that's able to respond quickly. Can I explore treatment a bit more with you?

Because if more children are going to be treated with antibiotics, is there not an argument that the strain then becomes more resistant to treatment? Yeah, of course. And that's been a reason why GPs have been reluctant to prescribe antibiotics for largely viral conditions, because most coughs and colds in children who are unwell in winter season are actually viruses. So antibiotics don't help. But I think right now the difficulty is that we know starting antibiotics early can make the difference. And so we don't yet have widespread use of rapid strep tests. So in the states where I'm from, there is a rapid test within 15 minutes. You can have a result of does this child have strep A and then you can immediately move to antibiotics. We don't yet have that widespread in Britain, which means that actually, do we want to wait a few days for throat swabs to come back? Or can we say, well, actually, based on a GP looking at a child, can we go off clinical diagnosis? And that's, again, the balance right now. Ideally, for the future, we'd look at getting these rapid strep tests in, because that has helped

other places, other countries move quickly to diagnosis and not overusing antibiotics. And just so I'm clear, why don't we have rapid testing here in the UK as yet? I think it's really coming down to the cost of it. It has never really been seen as cost effective because the NHS is a publicly funded system. There's trade-offs made over where do you put resources and diagnostics and rapid diagnostics have sometimes not been why the government's invested in it. It's very similar to chickenpox. We have a safe and effective chickenpox vaccine. It's not part of NHS routine childhood immunisation because the cost is not seen as justifiable given that not many kids end up in hospital with chickenpox and they end up at

home and recovering. It's not because we don't have a vaccine. It's because the cost is seen as too high. But of course, lots of people can opt for getting that vaccine privately. In this case, is a private rapid testing option available? Yes, it is. There are private GP surgeries which are offering this rapid test and a supply has been an issue, but it is there available privately. But again, we get into kind of the inequalities where, you know, wealthier educated parents are going to be saying, well, actually, I'm willing to pay for that test quickly to know. And then what you are going to see is, you know, parents who can't afford that test or don't have time to go find a private surgery might go through this public system and then have to have that wait and that delay. And so, of course, it increases inequalities as well

to have it only available privately. But that option is certainly there. And staying on the subject of antibiotics, there have been reports of shortages of antibiotics used to treat this infection. For example, the National Pharmacy Association, the voice of the independent community pharmacies across the UK, says pharmacies are having to work very hard to obtain stocks of these antibiotics

and some lines are temporarily unavailable. But the health secretary, Steve Barclay, has said he's not aware of any shortages and in a statement says that they are working urgently with manufacturers and wholesalers to explore what can be done to expedite deliveries and bring forward stock to meet demand. What is your response to this? Well, fortunately, penicillin, which is usually the first line antibiotic for this, is widely available and quite cheap. So it's easy to get. But the problem we're now facing is the strep A rising cases is not just in Britain, it's across Europe, it's in the United

States, it's in all the places where restrictions have been lifted. And you're seeing a resurgence of infectious diseases. And so it's not just Britain trying to get access to these medicines, it's the rest of the world. So in a way, we are going to see more and more constraints in supply and bottlenecks. And that's why I think now maybe the cost justification has switched to introducing rapid tests, because if it does manage to kind of keep that burden off over prescription of antibiotics and kids out of hospital, maybe that cost effect and this balance changes. And I hope government ministers will be looking at that with their advisers to say, well, actually, has it switched now, given we are seeing a rise in cases and outbreaks in

various settings? The expertise there of Professor Devi Sridhar. And whilst she was sharing her thoughts, lots of you were getting in touch with us. This one writes, this text writes, my grandson has symptoms similar to scarlet fever. He was prescribed antibiotics, but it's almost impossible to find a pharmacist with stocks. And Professor Devi there saying that's because there's been a rise in cases across Europe, not just here in the United Kingdom. John writes, it's all very well saying go to your GP. We'd be lucky if we could get an appointment in six weeks.

And that's assuming someone would answer the phone. Another writes, cough was a sign of strep A in my family. Maybe we'll get more clarification on that. And another one confirming what our earlier messenger was saying. There is a shortage of antibiotics. The government is lying. My daughter has suspected strep A or scarlet fever. And she was prescribed a course of penicillin.

I went to the chemist to get it. They'd run out. Not only that, every single chemist around us has run out. For the first time in history, said my chemist. Well, thank you for getting in touch with your thoughts there as well. We'll probably keep keeping across this story. There is so much interest from you and lots of questions and clarity needed. Clearly.

Also, lots of you getting in touch um about uh the story that we were hearing from carolyn hunter who had her her energy bill paid by kate winslet uh this person ellis writes rather um regarding the electricity bill of the mother with the child with cerebral palsy surely in a fair society this family should have their bills covered by the government that is something that we were talking about towards the end of our conversation and another one here from diversability who writes these stories reflect so much of what we've been hearing from the families we support this winter will be so incredibly difficult for so many people thank you to all of you for getting in touch with us here on the programme.

Sarah Collins won the Costa First Novel Prize in 2019 for The Confessions of Franny Langton about a Jamaican maid in 1820s London. It's a gothic thriller about a woman's fight to tell her story after she is put on trial for her employer's murder. Sarah has now adapted her book for television and the four part series is available on the streaming service ITVX from today. Sarah joins me here in the studio. Good to have you here, Sarah. Thank you for having me. I managed to watch the first episode and from the beginning I was holding my breath. That's a good thing, I hope. It certainly is and I want to watch the whole thing as and when we can get access to it. But just tell me, first of all, what inspired the story of Franny Langton? I have been a lifelong bookworm. I've had a really intense love affair myself with all of the kind of expected gothic romances. I gobbled up Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre as a teenager. And I think very strongly that what you read ends up being what you write. And so Franny was kind of born out of my experiences with those novels, but in particular,

my frustration, which came to me really strongly in adulthood, that throughout the whole tradition of English literature, a black woman had never been center stage in her own gothic romance. And that I had never seen a story which took slavery as the backdrop to some other kind of human experience, to a sort of springboard to love and passion and yearning and desire and intelligence. And I wanted to do that. The tagline for the show, which I've used on the road, is it's Jane Eyre if Jane was black and had shagged the madwoman in the attic and then been accused of murdering Mr. Rochester. I really do think someone should have murdered Mr. Rochester,

by the way. It is very gripping from what I've seen so far. Franny and her mistress, they strike up what is a very complicated affair. Let's hear a clip from their first meeting where Franny notices her new mistress is carrying a book that she recognises. Morning, ma'am, madame.

And you are? The new girl, ma'am, from the Indies. Frances Langdon. Hmm, I see. May I come along? Something new at last in this old burn yard. And how are you finding us, Francis? A shark?

I suppose we are, aren't we? Milton. You know of it. The mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell. A hell of heaven. Goosebumps listening to that. What were you trying to explore

in terms of the relationship between these two women? I mean, I think it's so significant and refreshing that when they meet the kind of initial spark isn't just them checking each other out although I suspect there is some of that but the fact that Franny recognizes that Madame is reading Milton and she actually starts the quote you know the mind is its own place, and Madame finishes it. And it was really important to me that this was going to be a meeting of minds, not just of bodies, because there's been all of this quite necessary focus on how the bodies of black people suffered throughout this period in the early 19th century. But what has always been missing is that minds suffered

as well. And that's the point that Franny tries to make repeatedly, that the impact on her mental health and on her capacity to express her own desires and her own intelligence was just as painful as anything else. And so the love that she finds with Madame is really sparked by this kind of shared love of literature. They both really want to write and they're kind of prevented from doing so by the men who control their fortunes and their lives. And they find some solace in each other. They find a kind of love that's redemptive, but ultimately, you know know quite tumultuous and destructive because it's gothic but it was really important to me that in all of the drawing rooms in the sort of civilized drawing rooms of this series that the black woman was going to be the most intelligent person in the room and it's a shame that that could still be seen as subversive. Yeah and there's a line linked

to what you're saying from that first episode where Franny says, I am fed up of people like you. When she says like you, she's referring to her brief who she was speaking to. I'm fed up of people like you deciding who I am and what I am as soon as you take one look at me and I will not confess to something I don't believe I've done. And it really plays to the essence of what you're talking about there,

that narrative of having the autonomy to define our own identities. Franny is played by Carla Simone Spence incredibly beautifully. Is this how you imagined her? Actually, probably exceeds my wildest dreams. I think Carla Simone is exceptional. I'm so glad you agree. I really hope that this role brings attention to her extraordinary talent. You know, it's a difficult role. The whole show stands or falls on the shoulders of the actress playing

Franny. And Franny is a character who is complicated. She's challenging. She's not necessarily always likable. You've got to capture the rage, but also the vulnerability. Not very many actresses could pull it off. Carla Simone's only 25. So the performance shows, I think, a maturity and a talent well beyond her years. Absolutely. You know, really, it was a huge privilege for me to watch her embody this character. And it could have gone horribly wrong because I'm well aware that, you know, someone someone could have been assigned the role who just wasn't up for it. And then my heart would have been broken. And I have to say it's the opposite. My heart has truly been enlivened and overjoyed by her performance.

Because it must have been hard to hand over the reins in part of a book that is so close to your heart. Yes. And that deals with such sensitive subject matter that's so personal to me. It came out of a kind of, it came out of an attempt to grapple with my own history. I'm a Caribbean person. I'm well aware that my ancestors would have had to navigate the problems that Franny would have had. And also because I'm a bookworm, I imagined myself sort of shunted back

to that period by some kind of dastardly time machine. And one of the things I would have lost would have been this access to books and the life of the mind and the opportunity to learn that's been so important to me. And I wanted to explore that with her. So yeah, it would have been heartbreaking for the performance not to have nailed it. Fortunately, Carla Simone nailed it and I'm really thrilled with how she did. Well, I look forward to watching the rest of the episodes as we get access to them. But thank you for now, Sarah Collins,

for coming in and talking about the adaptation of your book, The Confessions of Franny Langton. Thank you for having me. According to the relationship charity Relay, deciding who to spend christmas with is often a major source of tension in relationships and families and if it's just you and your partner or spouse how do you decide if it's going to be with your family or the in-laws mom actor and writer sue elliot nichols says now that her sons are older with girlfriends

she's going to have to go all out in terms of an inflatable Santa on the roof and an illuminated reindeer grazing on the grass to lure them to her house for Christmas Day. Because when it comes to the festive day, she says women will always choose to spend it with their mum and family and as their mother-in-law. She will not get a look in. If you agree with this, please do get in touch at BBC Women's Hour. In a moment, we will hear from the relationship psychologist Emma Kenny. Is there any truth in the argument that it's the women who have control over this Christmas Day dilemma? But first, Sue, you have two sons aged 21 and 27. Why do you believe it's going to be harder and harder to have them with you on Christmas Day? I just think that I'm beta mum, aren't I now?

You know, and I can see it looming. That's disheartening. I know, I know. I can see it starting to happen. Where are you going to go, you know, for the summer? Who are you going to go on holiday with? Staying with the girlfriends. And I just think that you're kind of like three laps behind

as the mother of the boy. You know, you won't be there at the birth. You won't get the phone calls saying the first tooth's arrived, the first steps. We all ring our mums first. You know, I did not have a great relationship with my mum, but she was still the first person I rang, even before my husband. You know, you're saying this, and all I'm thinking about is my sweet six-year-old boy boy yes yes and and him

flying the nest and and me turning into you it's hideous it's hideous and I thought I was going to be the coolest right you know I've got my life I'm going to be fine but you have to pretend as well you have to pretend that you're really to pretend that you're really happy about everything you're really happy about the fact that they they leave they abandon you basically they abandon you well tell us what's happened so far how you've come to this point in thinking that that's it when it comes to Christmas day I'm taking second place all out well I might not take second place I mean gloves might be on I definitely will be getting the inflatable Santa. And I think the trick will be to work out what's missing from other granny and supply it.

Right. You know. Strategic. Yes. And maybe even a bit of cash could change hands between me and the grandchildren on the quiet. Don't tell your mum. Here's a tenner. Go buy yourself something and a lovely new toy right and

I think it's just you slowly start to realize when they get into their 20s that it's like karma coming back because I you know I made the decisions really about what we did at Christmas I was going to say does this mirror what's been happening in your own family unit over the years with your husband for example well I mean we did go in the end we decided not to go to either of them because we did the best Christmas ever and I feel like you know we possibly the most conflict-free definitely the most conflict-free but I can see with friends that are becoming grandparents or as the boys get girlfriends that you know the the mothers of the girls,

the girls come and stay with them with their baby and have a little sleepover, watch a bit of Strictly on a Saturday night. The boys don't. I can't ever imagine my sons thinking, oh, I'll come and stay over the night. Maybe they will. Maybe I just need to work on that. They've, you know, they're only 21 and 27. I'm sure they've got a lot of relationships possibly to come. I'm thinking ahead. I'm planning. Let me bring in Emma Kenny here. Emma, is this about

the gender stereotype of lazy men versus organised women? Or is there some truth in what Sue is saying there? And of course, we're just talking about heterosexual couples at this point. Yeah, I mean, it's represented in research that women do do more of the decision making but then with respect that's because they take 70 of their housework and domestic duties and child care even when they work so i don't think we can come down too hard on women saying well i organize this because it has to be somebody who follows for it to actually eventuate in a reality if a man's just going to say that's fine then maybe what we need to do with our boys and I've got two boys so I've brought them up subliminally processing them to understand the importance

of remaining with family at all times no matter how they marry it out that's definitely a fear that I think most of us feel with our children per se I think there are a lot of stereotypes associated with boys because at the end of the day, it used to be that women didn't have the same protocol of work. Now we do. We are leaders. We are all those things.

And we are also often leaders in our home. But negotiation is really important. It's really humor orientating when I hear what's being discussed because it's that genuine sense of grief, the fear of of loss and it's a beautiful thing because what it says is you have this profoundly important incredibly strong relationship of love that you have managed to manifest in your family and sometimes we feel bad that we have these feelings of well I want my boys or my girls to be with me for Christmas because we think that that's maybe a bit selfish because at the end of the day we've got to share.

But it comes from this exceptionally beautiful place of this connection. So I think when it comes down to making Christmas fair, firstly, it's today. It really doesn't matter whether it's Christmas Day or Boxing Day or New Year's Day that you get, as long as you get, you can organise and synchronise and share.

You can move Christmas. You can, but maybe be explicit. So my boys have grown up with me saying one day stereotypically you would abandon me but that's never going to happen because you and I are going to make sure that we always have this contact and they kind of laugh about it and yet it's real so maybe it's more about us being honest about our feelings not being ashamed that we have them expressing it as a moment and meaning of love and working hard on those relationships. Maybe not bribing them, although I love that, it made me giggle, pay the grandchildren, you come here, you get more. But you know, doing that strategic,

as you said, relationship building, because a lot of the time it comes down to the fact that we choose what feels best. History and familiarity and nostalgia creates connections with families. But you know what, over the years, you can build those incredible bonds with anybody partner-wise with your children. I like the positivity, Emma. I really do. I talked about gender stereotypes there between husbands and wives. Is it less complicated for same-sex couples?

It tends to be, with respect, the person who organises the household that has more of a say. And even when we are in same-sex relationships even when we look at polyamorous relationships so we're not just talking about two we could talk about three you still tend to have what we would consider a dominant system within a home that comes down to the organization and actually if all we ever do is say well okay it's your job to organize and i've got an easy life then it's not going to be a surprise that they choose their

needs a little bit they choose their needs a little bit more than your needs when it comes down to the things like big days. So maybe we all have to just be a bit more honest about our roles, our relationships and our expectations with one another so that we can be a bit fairer. But like I said, everything that's been said about those children and those boys, like yourself with your six-year-old, it just comes from the most profoundly beautiful place.

I just don't think we should beat ourselves up for those feelings because it means your children are adored and cherished. And what a gift that is, whether they're six or 60. What a lovely message there. Sue, are you the more organised one? Do you know, I'd like to say yes, but no, I'm not. Well, maybe that's what you need to do. Maybe that's the role I need to, yes.

And I love it that you said that you've kind of said to your boys, you know, we need to carry on cherishing each other. Because, you know, it was really interesting. My son said, you know, my oldest son said he might need to move back for a while. And I said, oh, well, you know, secretly I was thinking, yes, yes, yes. But I was like, you know, yeah, you could move back. You probably wouldn't be back for that long because, you know, you'd need to find another flat. And he said, I feel like you don't really want me to come back. And I was like, oh, my God, you are so jokey.

I literally pretend that I'm happy that you've gone. I absolutely hate it. It's a front. It's a front. I've got to put these messages to you. We've had Alison get in touch saying, oh, get over yourselves. Your children don't belong to you. Yes, they do. And should be making their own choices

and living their own lives. Fiona says, seriously, let your kids live their lives and don't overthink Christmas visits. This kind of pressure is totally unnecessary, although it sounds too, like you're not putting pressure on them. You're just trying different tactics there.

Yes. And Rosamund writes, I've got two sons and they take it in turns which parents they visit on alternate years i'm sure this is the norm but a son is a son until he takes him a wife a daughter's your daughter for all her life i've heard that many a time emma yes i've heard that very many times i do understand when people get in contact and they're like don't sweat it stop being overreactive but I think we should never minimize some of these feelings and actually our children are profoundly important and it's totally all right to have these feelings and it's most important to work them through and figure out strategies that work for you as a

family yeah I'm not judgmental at all of those feelings I think you're a normal loving mother but you talk about feelings sometimes culturally or otherwise you might not have that relationship where you can open up and say you know I love you dearly and you know let's always be in touch and all and all of that how do you navigate that what are what are other strategies if you don't have that I wouldn't say intimacy but that kind of relationship where you can be open and frank for whatever reason that might be. Yeah, I mean, I think that communication can begin whenever you're ready. So if you've not had a great relationship and you want to build on it and just be open and transparent, you might not always get what you want. But actually in life, it's about knowing that you've spoken your truth and you said what's important to you. If it

doesn't resolve it, that's OK. You'll okay you'll move forward culturally you just brought a really important point in you know my best friend's hindu her family have always been together her mother lives with her her in-laws across the road they do everything together right so maybe as well we need to take a few crumbs from other cultures and go if we really want to feel part of our community we want to feel that we can reflect on what other people have and get and actually there's some real beautiful profound things that other cultures have and I think that if we really want to feel solidified within our unit then let's learn because I think we've lost something and we know what if we capture it we don't want to feel that grief we want to always feel a part of our

fabric of our foundations is that something you might do to pair up you know whoever your part your sons might be dating now or going forward. Could you, you know, pair up and go along with the in-laws? Pair up with the other in-laws? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yes, I've thought about this as long as it's at my house. Terms and conditions from Sue. Yeah, yeah, no, I have thought about this.

And, you know, the alpha mum will be there. I mean, I can I can just imagine it. We'll be at alpha mum's house, which will be nicer than mine. And I'll be like comedy dowager in the corner. Is there anything I can do to help? Can I help? And when the grandchild shows me this tiny bit. It might not be like that Sue. You might have built up this picture in your mind. It might not be like that. You might have built up this picture in your mind. It might not be like that. Is it certainly worth a shot? No, of course. Of course I'll try.

And I'll carry on, like we were saying, pretending that I'm happy that they're living their lives and moving on. But see, you really hate it. I must ask you, where is Christmas this year? Christmas isn't mine. With the boys? With the boys. And I have to tell you, you know, this year? Christmas is at mine. With the boys? With the boys.

And I have to tell you, you know, we have the best Christmas house ever. So I'm kind of already putting in the work. Uh-huh. Laying the foundation. Laying the foundation. To get them back next year. They also love Christmas. So we're kind of, we make it a family.

Oh, we love Christmas in our family, don't we? You know, keep that family. Are partners coming partners well one of my sons went to partners on Christmas evening but I didn't mind that I think that was fine yeah that's what Emma was saying you've got to kind of move Christmas yeah no no I didn't mind I was more scared of him being on his bike to be honest cycling across London than I was but um yes no of course I'll compromise and I'll be very grown up I'll just secretly feel these feelings well Sue and Emma thank you for your words of wisdom I do wish you a very Merry Christmas

with your boys you've both got two boys and I hope it's a wonderful one and thank you for spending some time with us here at Woman's Hour and to all of you listening thank you for getting in touch with us over at BBC Women's Hour by tweeting us, by getting in touch with us on WhatsApp. That is me. That is it, rather, from me and the team here at Women's Hour.

Thank you for spending some of your day with us. We are back again tomorrow. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Anita Arnand and I'm hosting this year's BBC Reith Lectures, which are on the subject of freedom.

The lectures are inspired by Franklin D. Roosevelt's famous Four Freedoms speech. And this year, we have not one, but four speakers. We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way. The third is freedom from want. The fourth is freedom from fear. A quartet of speakers examine what freedom means today,

beginning with the best-selling author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Freedom of speech is, I think, essential to being human. You can hear all the lectures on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. Just search for The Reith Lectures. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.