Woman's Hour - Melanie C, Toddler 'skinfluencers', Bryony Gordon

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Melanie C has been a household name for the past three decades, since the Spice Girls burst into the charts with Wannabe and went on to become the world’s biggest ever girl group. She says her new solo album Sweat is a chance to bring together all the different aspects of herself, from pop star to superstar DJ, teenage raver to being fit in her 50s. She joins Anita Rani to discuss why she’s bringing the joy on a quest to get people dancing, and the enduring legacy of the Spice Girls. Concerns are being raised over a lack of safeguards for ‘child influencers’ after an investigation found children as young as two demonstrating skincare routines on TikTok. The Guardian's Consumer Affairs Correspondent Sarah Marsh tells Anita about their research which found that from 8,000 skincare-related posts on the social media platform, there were hundreds featuring children believed to be under 13, and at least 90 featuring children under five. Dermatologists have said children do not need multi-step skincare routines, which could damage their skin and increase anxiety about their appearance.Writer and newspaper columnist Bryony Gordon joins Anita to talk about her novel People Pleaser, her first work of fiction after writing seven memoirs about her experiences with addiction and mental health and her attempts to combat those. Maddie Haining, an 18-year-old wheelchair user from Oldham, posted online her experience of being asked to leave a Manchester nightclub for safety reasons. She described feeling embarrassed and infuriated when told that her wheelchair was a safety risk. Maddie joins Anita to explain what happened and we also hear from Dr Shani Dhanda, Disability Inclusion and Accessibility Consultant.Calli Hauger-Thackery was bronze medalist in the women's half marathon at the 2024 European Athletics Championships, and a member of the gold medal-winning team in the 2024 European Half-Marathon Cup, held at the same time. She represented Great Britain at the 2024 Paris Olympics and England at the 2022 Commonwealth Games. She's just returned from the Boston Marathon which took place on Monday, where she completed the marathon whilst 22-weeks pregnant with her first child. She tells Anita about her achievement. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. She is the female artist with the most songs at number one in the UK's charts history. She's back with her ninth studio album. We are in the presence of Spice Girl greatness. Melanie C is here. Also, Callie Haga Thackeray has just returned from the Boston Marathon

where she competed 22 weeks pregnant with her first child. I'll be speaking to her later. We'll be hearing how Maddie Haining, an 18-year-old wheelchair user, was asked to leave a club just minutes after arriving in Manchester. Also, finding out how children as young as two are demonstrating skincare on TikTok. And Brianie Gordon has written seven memoirs, sharing with us the details of her life through addiction, mental health and running.

Well, she's now written her very first novel called People Pleaser. The title says it all really, doesn't it? How many of you can relate to those two words? Most women to some degree, I suspect. So this morning, tell me about the time when you have said yes to something you really didn't want to. Or maybe you've changed and stopped worrying too much about making other people happy. Let me know either way. Let me know what changed and how you changed it.

Maybe you will inspire us all this morning. get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email the program by going to our website or WhatsApp me or even drop me a voice note on 0300-100-444. The text number once again, 84844. But first, my next guest has been a household name for the past three decades. Ever since a certain spy skills track exploded into the charts back in 1996.

That's dated a lot of us, hasn't it? Let's remind ourselves of the talent and the... the sound of Melanie C. That was wannabe, never be the same again. When You're Gone, Melanie's duet with Brian Adams and Sweat, the title track of her new album, which is due out on the 1st of May. And I'm delighted to say, Melanie joins me

in the studio. Welcome back to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. It's great to be back. We were just dancing and singing along to every single one of those. We were. It felt good. It felt great from the very beginning. Yes. And, oh my goodness, 30 years ago, it's so wild because people will often and say to me, can you believe it's 30 years?

And I'm like, yes. Yes, because I've lived it. I've lived through it. And you've got the story to tell as well. But let's start where we are now, the ninth studio album. And you've said that this album is about bringing together lots of different aspects of yourself. So tell me more about that. This album, honestly, I love it when a plan comes together.

I have been DJing, actually. I discovered dance music way back. I was a student at Performing. arts college. I went on holiday to the Costa Brava with my friends. I was 17, first holiday without parents. And we were going into all like local clubs and bars. And they were playing this music. I was like, what is it? Everyone was dancing with wild abandon. And if we remember the 80s, dancing in clubs is pretty much step touch on it. Step touch. And then these people like, we're flying arms everywhere, getting down low onto the grounds. And of course, being dancers,

we were like, this is us. We love. We love. loved it and I fell in love with house music, came back to London. I was like I need to find my people and had a little foray into the world of raving and that's where I used to look at the DJs up on the decks. It was vinyl decks at that point and I never really had the confidence to give it a go. I never had the opportunity. Fast forward to I think it was about 2016, 2017 when I mentioned it to a friend and he was like, why don't you do it? Why don't you just have a lesson. So now it's the DJs, easier to handle, and I fell in love immediately. So DJing for about the last eight years has really inspired this record. It's brought a part of my past that happened before

the Spice Girls musically, as well as all those influences growing up as a kid through the 70s and 80s. And I just wanted to bring my solo work closer to what I play as a DJ. So it was trying to find that sweet spot. Obviously, I'm a pop artist. I always will be. I write pop songs, but I wanted to get a little more of a dance feel in the sound. But in the 30 years since the beginning of the Spice Girls, like dance music is pop music, it's mainstream. And I feel like you have created a banger, actually, banger after banger. We're going to, we'll play the new single in a minute. It's so joyful. Yes. And by the way, I can totally relate to that because I too love being on the dance for and was raving. But also, it might be easier on CDJs, but it's all about the selection,

Melanie. Doesn't matter. Yeah, there's lots of aspects to being a DJ and there are a lot of different kinds of DJs as well. I'm a very energetic DJ because for me, and I think something, maybe some of your listeners will relate to this. A lot of my particular age group, I think we rediscovered clubbing, going out that those euphoric moments that we need as humans to have a release post-pandemic. We'd been, you know, all held up, we'd not been able to go anywhere, we'd not been able to socialise with people.

And when I went back out and started DJing again in, what year was it? It must have been, what, 21, 22. I saw a lot of older people on the dance floor and we've kind of reclaimed it. So it's almost like the release, but also the fitness, but also there's something about regulating your body as well.

Yeah, it's just that let go. You know, we all have so much in our You know, whether it's work, whether it's family. We're just like, we're always doing, aren't we? And whether it's the weekend, you work for the weekend to go out and have that release, to be in a room having a shared experience with strangers. You know, that's the beauty. What was it like?

Even though you've always loved music, you're part of them, you know, you loved raving, but stepping out to do something new. Because DJing is a new type of performance. Were you nervous? I was petrified. I was, and of course being a spice girl, you can't do anything quietly. You know, everything you do, there's a lot of eyes on you. So, yeah, my first gig was very, very scary, but I do like to challenge myself.

I've had, you know, quite a few moments in my career when I've been offers an opportunity, which terrifies me. And I've thought, now I want to do this for me. I want to prove to myself that I can do it. And I have to say, with DJing, I'm so grateful that I did it because it has, like you said, brought so much joy to me. And I had to make sure that translated onto this record. I think we should hear some more.

This is the latest single. I absolutely love it. It's called Undefeated Champion about getting back up again. Let's have a listen. We're totally in the music. Can I just share the moment I'm having? I'm sitting with Melanie C. Having a bop.

And I'm in my track suit as well, especially just for you. Beautiful lyrics. Thank you. Tell me more about the inspiration behind it. Yeah, this one, it's a little bit of a theme for me and I think most of us especially women there are so many knocks we experience through

life and I think we just have this superpower that we get up and we carry on and I really wanted to get that into a song and make it really positive and inspiring Can we talk about some of your knox? Yes, you particularly since 2022

when you wrote your memoir you've been very vocal about some of the things that you've been through yeah how much has music helped you get out of the dark places. Oh, my goodness. I don't know what I would do without music. And even as a child, you know, it was the thing I turned to if I was lonely, brokenhearted.

I mean, it accompanies every moment in our lives, doesn't it? The fun times, the tough times. And I think especially becoming an artist and being able to express myself, it's so cathartic. And I think often when I'm going through difficult things, I think, oh, it's good material, though, in it? In an interview you published a few years ago, you called Fame Tretcherous and Hard. Do you still feel that way?

And tell me what that was about. Yeah, you know what? I think it is at times. I feel, I'm 52 now, and I think that landmark of reaching 50 changes a lot. I think 40's a big one. A lot changes then, but 50 even more so. And when I was a younger person,

I think I was much more vulnerable. vulnerable and impressionable. And that was probably at the time when it was the hardest because it was spice girls. You know, my life changed unrecognizably. I was reading all of these opinions that people had of me. The tabloid media in the 90s was incredibly cruel. And it was hard to navigate. So, yeah, I think I said in that article that fame is wanted by the people who are

probably the least able to deal with it, you know, because we do have this insecurity. We do need this affirmation and it's dangerous. You were so young, you were 20. And I was thinking about you obviously knowing that I was very excited to come and talk to you today. And I was thinking not only were you this huge group of five young women, all eyes on you and all the pressure that comes with it, but also the dynamic within you and the pressures individually and I was thinking about your personality in particular and I don't know you were you because you were quieter I guess because you were you were working class background shy in this

whole new space and just how you how did you cope with that who was around you you know it was being in a band I think you know like everything there's there's a there's positives and negatives the positives for the spice girls is we experience experience that together. You know, there's no one else on this planet who knows what it's like to be a spice girl, apart from the five of us. And going through that together was really important. We had each other's backs.

We, and we also, we self-policed as well, you know, because it is a tricky time and a tricky space to find yourself in. So at least we had each other to, like, you know, maybe rain people in and look after each other. But also there's the dynamic within the band. And that can be like, really stifling. And I think, you know, like anyone, whether it's a work environment, a family environment, we have these relationships, don't we? We behave a certain way in certain company. And I think I am quite shy, you know, which people are always surprised by, because

sometimes I've been more comfortable jumping up on stage at Wembley Stadium in front of 80,000 people than I would be walking into a room full of a few people. And I think a lot of performers are like that. But within the band, there was big voices, there was big personality. And because of my shyness, I think that made me maybe step back even more so. Yeah. Yeah. But you were doing the high kicks. I was doing the high kicks and the high licks.

And the high. The pressure that you're talking about that you were under and the scrutiny that you're under because of the fame, you have a teenage daughter. I do. How much do you think your experience with fame has impacted your parenting style? Oh, I think it has kind of. in a really specific way that I chose to not have my daughter in the public eye. And I think because of my own experiences with fame, I didn't want to make that decision for her. Obviously, I have friends who take a very different approach and I respect that, you know, everybody is different.

But personally for me, I didn't want to do that. And I feel good about it. You know, she lives what we would call a relatively normal life, not normal compared to my own. upbringing, might I say. But, you know, she's able to move about quite anonymously, which is what I wanted for her. And I think, yeah, she's amazing. I think the spice girls and kind of the legacy that we've left behind has impacted so many people in so many ways. Like even my daughter and her friends, they are so sassy.

I love it. You know, I think girls are much more outspoken now generally than we ever were growing up. Has being a mum changed your approach to life? Absolutely. She changed everything. I think from the minute I became pregnant, it's a long time ago now, she's 17, but I just, I really respected my body, probably for the first time. I think as a young woman, you're always like wanting to be better, right?

We aspire to these things, don't we? And nothing was ever good enough. Again, being a performer, I call myself a failed perfectionist now, not a perfectionist. But yeah, as soon as I was like creating this life inside of me, I was like, this body is amazing. I want to start looking after it better. What's the difference? Failed perfectionist. I love the phrase.

Explain why that's better. Because you can always aim for perfection, but just to acknowledge you're never going to reach it. Yeah. That I think that's important. You were given the moniker sporty spice. I love that we are both in track suits today. and you were so physically fit and you were always the one that I felt

I could relate to the most because you know you want to be a superhero and you know just jump on there with those high kicks but you've also spoken very candidly about your own issues with body image

and eating disorders I'm looking at the cover of your new album and Melanie you look incredible you look it's like Jane Fonda it's like iconic 80s like your body is I mean so super

strong and sexy. I feel even looking at you now, listening to the music, I feel like you are sort of in your elements. You are where you should exactly should be. You know, I love that. I am so proud of myself because I have

always been fit. You know, I've had moments, I've had problems and issues along the way, but I am sporty, space. You know, I've tried to run away from her and it's ridiculous because I am her. I love being fit and I have been most of my life. but I've never been confident enough to show it.

And now I make this record in my 50s and I'm wearing, you know, the most revealing outfits I've ever worn, you know? And I just thought, you know what, I've got to document this before it's too late. And, you know, I also want to say, because I think it's really important to note, I look incredible on this artwork. I worked really hard to get to that point.

I do have a level of fitness always because I'm always touring, you know, DJing, singing, live and I need to be fit. But that amount of like precision was I took two weeks to like really honing on my nutrition and I'm working out sometimes doing sessions twice a day really specifically for that shoot. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Because you're right because people, women will look at that, young girls and go, oh, how do I get that? Is there a quick way of being that? I can't look like that every day of the week. I don't look like that now. But leading up to that shoot, that is the image I wanted to create.

And I think it's really dangerous now with Instagram because there are so many people on there that are presenting these images and they're just not sustainable or they're not sustainable in a healthy way. And I know that because I became a victim of that, you know, way back in the 90s. I wasn't eating properly. I became very obsessive about exercise. And, you know, I had some horrible issues after that and getting well from that took a long, long time.

So yeah, I think it's really important to say you can look like that, but not all the time. Even people who are doing competitions, they don't look like that all the time. Boxers don't, aren't at their peak fitness like 12 months of the year. How do you feel when you talk about the Melanie who was going through the troubles and the eating disorder and whatever you were dealing with at the time? Yeah, I mean, I have different feelings. Sometimes it's almost like compartmentalised, but all. Also, I have like so much empathy for her. It feels strange talking about yourself in the third person.

But I always look back to, I released my autobiography a few years ago. And at the time, I was also part of a phone hacking claim. And I had to research, I had to go back over every single article that was ever written about me. And to do that, and it was all done chronologically. and to see the narrative of me as a young person created by the tabloid media, it really made me forgive myself. Because in many ways, having an eating disorder and, you know, there was a few years when I've suffered with depression amongst other things.

And I felt ashamed. I felt guilty. I felt like it was a weakness. And these are all things I hated about myself. How did I do that? How did I allow myself to do that? because I am very strong, I'm very determined, I'm very disciplined, but all of these things happened to me. But reading those things with hindsight, I forgave myself because I just thought,

I, as a young woman, I didn't have a hope in hell surviving this attack that I was getting, that all the spice girls were getting, that all women in the public eye were getting through that time. Yeah, young women. Yeah. We are talking about people pleasing. Do you recognize No, so recognise those two words? 100%. So I'm going to ask you the question I've asked all our listeners. Is there a moment where you wish you'd turned around and said, no? There's not one.

There's probably millions. I chronic people pleaser, but I will say I have recognised in myself, especially on this run of interviews, even to the point where you're talking to journalists and presenters and I want to give them what they want. I want to please them. You know, and not all journalists have your best interests at heart. So that puts you in a very dangerous situation.

Sure. And I've realised I don't need to pay people please anymore. Yeah, and you don't have to answer the question if you don't want. No, exactly. Just say no. Just say no. There you go. Make a note.

It has been such a joy speaking with you. I feel like this is, you know, I can't wait to see what you do from here on. It's an absolute cracker of an album. Thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. You're always welcome here. See you soon. See you very soon. The album sweat is released. I'll say you on the dance floor.

Yay. The album sweat is released on the 1st of May and tickets for your world tour this autumn are on sale now. We will see you there. Wonderful, Melanie C. 84844 is the text number. I'm going to read out a couple of your messages. In my late 30s and I find I care less and less about people pleasing. I don't eat my sandwich crusts anymore because I don't like them.

I may look childish, but I don't care. Good for you. I'm kind of the same. Okay, moving on. Concerns are being raised over a lack of safeguards for child influences after an investigation found children as young as two demonstrating skincare routines on TikTok. Journalists at The Guardian analyzed nearly 8,000 skincare-related posts on the social media platform and found hundreds featuring children believed to be under 13 and at least 90 featuring children under 5.

Dermatologists have said, children do not need multi-step skincare routines, which could damage their skin and increase anxiety about their appearance. The Guardian's Consumer Affairs correspondent Sarah Marsh joined me earlier from their newsroom to explain what the investigation found. Yeah, so from about October to November last year, we looked at videos on TikTok and we found about 7,600. These videos were all related to skincare.

And of those videos, about 400, featured children under the age of 13, 90 of them featured children under the age of five, and about one in seven, so 1,000 featured children, well, young people under the age of 18. And what were they doing? What were the, what were the videos showing? So these videos were all young people basically presenting skincare routines. So get ready with me's and talking about brands, talking about brands they enjoy, doing sort of to cameras essentially promoting their skin care regimen. What kind of products?

So I think from serums to moisturisers, you know, some of these were like multi-step routines, not just, you know, washing your face and then moisturising, there'd be mists. Some of them, obviously, products that probably weren't suitable for them, some sort of younger products, but we did find some retinels as well being promoted. How about there's lots of parents now,

paying very close attention after retinels and young children in the same sentence. Many of these videos look like advertising videos. Do you know if there were actually any commercial links between the brands and young influences or their parents even? I think it's really hard to tell. And you'd have to sort of, you know, we did try and examine that as closely as we could. But obviously, adverts aren't always declared. You don't always know the relationship on social media in the same way that. you might in other instances like a paid ad on a television show, for example.

And I think that's one of the questions about this is because it is so unclear, you know, it influences in a different way. And I think young people are very susceptible, especially to peer-to-peer advertising. And if you see another young person using a brand and promoting a brand on social media, it's very hard to tell where the line is and whether there has been any influence. Who's expressing concern about these that you've seen? And what are the experts saying? What are they worried about?

Obviously dermatologists are worried. And they're worried from the sense that children just simply do not need these extensive routines. It's not necessary. But also from, I suppose, like a psychological perspective, what this kind of level of pressure in terms of, you know, being very young and thinking you need these routines would do to somebody. I think there's concern about people worrying about the smallest little blemishes becoming something to worry about when you're five or six, right?

So there's worry from that sense. And then I think from a child protection side, there's also worries that there's actually very little laws in place to protect child influences. So, you know, young people can be used on social media in this way to promote things and there's sort of not enough rules to protect them, I suppose,

to make sure they're getting paid correctly to make sure that there are welfare checks, their safety in place. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because there are strict protections for children working in areas like TV, film and modelling. So why don't those safeguards apply here?

I think it's just the law hasn't caught up with obviously how massively social media has evolved. And, you know, while children, and there are age limits on how old you have to be to be on social media. There's not rules around how children can be used on social media with their parents involved. There's very little rules around how brands can specifically work with families in that capacity.

And the law is catching up now. And I think there is a talk about, discussion about it. Obviously, the government at consulting on whether to ban social media for under 16s. So the questions are coming, but it's a bit too late for some, for some. And I feel like, you know, how long will it take for all that to come into place? And at the moment, you've got this kind of unregulated zone. Is anyone campaigning for proper regulation? So MPs have discussed it and has been brought forward by Victoria Collins

and the chair of the Committee for Science and Innovation and Technology. And they are talking about it in terms of like campaigners. Obviously there are people that are concerned about generally about children and social media and the direction of travel with it. So, yeah, there is a conversation around, you know, gaps in regulation and protecting children. But the other side of this, which is where we began, is about beauty and young children. So what does this tell us about how social media and the beauty industry are now reaching children? Yeah, I mean, it's scary, really, because when I think about my generation, you know, I grew up and I think makeup or cosmetic stuff came into play really in my teen, early teen years, right?

So when I was 11, 12, maybe 13, I remember I started using these like stick concealers. But now to see like a two-year-old to camera doing a full, you know, get ready with me, I'm doing my mist, I'm doing my moisturiser, I'm doing this, I'm looking at my skin. You know, what that psychologically will do from such a young age, I think having the reach of beauty to be infecting childhood, which is, you know, such a sort of innocent time, I think is quite concerning. and I feel like it's a little bit scary. I think, you know, I don't want to think about because I've got a young daughter, my daughter having to worry about how her skin looks when she's eight or nine.

That was the Guardian's Consumer Affairs correspondent, Sarah Marsh. And in a statement to the Guardian, TikTok said, skincare and wellness content has been well established across social media for over a decade. The example shared by the Guardian

featured active parental supervision. 84844 is the text number and someone's been in touch to say, Mel C is such an inspiration. I'm really struggling at the moment as a musician and my relationships, but I've decided to nurture my relationship with my music. Instead, thanks Mel for everything. Now, Brian E. Gordon has written for newspapers since her teens,

often writing about her own life. In fact, she's written seven memoirs about her own experiences with addiction and the impact that had had on her life, but also her mental health, her OCD and taking up running. But now she's written her first novel. It's called People Pleaser and Brioni joins me now. Congratulations, publication day. I know.

I'm going to stand in my majesty today, Anita. You must. You should. Because I want to give other women permission to be proud of their achievements as well. I feel like every time we hear you speak, Brianie, every time I see you on social media or I'm in your presence, you give that. You bring an energy that boosts everyone around you. I think I'm trying to boost myself a bit to be on.

honest, Anita, because I am inherently a very insecure person. I'm a product of the generation in which I was brought up in, you know, I was born in 1980. As women specifically, we were told, you know, don't be full of yourself. Don't, the world doesn't revolve around you. From a young age, I was always told, you know, keep ourselves small, don't make a fuss. And I found that has been really inhibiting as a human, you know, my need to make everyone around me happy. and to be perfect, you know, Mel C was talking about, failed perfectionist. Perfectionism to me, I'm going to get political very early on. Let's go. I'm ready.

I think perfectionism is a tool of the patriarchy to keep us small, right? And that's what it did to me. And everything that went wrong, everything, all of the nasty, horrible mental health issues that I've experienced in my life, from OCD to depression, to eating disorders to addiction, were all rooted in people pleasing and not living. my full fat glory, basically. Which I feel we see you do on your social media. I'd say it's a tool. It's a trick of the patriarchy. Yeah.

There is no, there is, it doesn't matter. Whatever you think you're doing and ticking, ultimately that it's still going to be wrong. Yeah. Let's talk about the novel. Yes. People pleaser. Well, first of all, seven memoirs, first novel,

is it a different experience? How are you feeling today? And where did the idea come from? Okay. So, well, yeah, it's a very different experience. But the, yeah, well, so all of my books have previously been about sort of moving through dark experiences like alcoholism. I'm nearly 10 years sober and OCD and all of those things. And so they've all been about moving through and coming out the other side in the hope of giving people some hope.

And I really wanted to write about people pleasing because the more sober I've got, the more I've realized that people pleasing, as I just said, is at the heart of all of my problems, really. And I wanted to write about it, but I was like, I can't write a memoir about moving through people pleasing because I am still as crippled by it as everyone else, right? So I wanted to explore through a novel, the idea of a world where, so it's all about a woman, a young, not a young woman, a woman my age, mid-40s, mother, who is kind of harassed and like most of us are. and she goes out, she has a crushing career disappointment, goes on a night out with a Jen Z colleague, wakes up the next morning, and she cannot people please anymore. She is incapable of doing anything other than telling the truth

and putting herself first. So it's like, liar, liar, except with a harassed mother instead of an evil lawyer. So it was like wish, I was like cosplaying being the woman that I wanted to be. Brilliant. You know, in the morning, I don't know about you, Anita, and I don't know about anyone listening,

but I bet I'm willing to bet that most of women's hours listeners this morning stood in the shower with all the resentments they picked up yesterday against all the people and they had so, they had these sassy arguments with these people in their heads. And also the things that I wish I'd said yesterday, why didn't I do that? And I should have said this.

Exactly. And all of that. And you think you're like, shift from succession. You're like really hard. And then you go out into the real world and you're more like cousin Greg. You're like, oh, sorry, sorry. I didn't mean that.

So I wanted to create a world when this character, Olivia Greenwood, as a character in people pleaser, she goes out and she lives her full fat life. How much fun was it to write? It was so much fun. So much fun. Actually more therapeutic than writing a memoir.

Sure. The character, Olivia, she works for a daily newspaper. She's so keen to please. She doesn't say anything when she's sexually harassed by her boss or doesn't get the promotion she deserves. How much of it is based on your own experience? I would say it's a novel, but it's definitely rooted in lots of experiences

that myself and my friends went through in the media, in the noughties. And I think that probably a lot of people in a lot of industries sort of had to deal with in the noughties, whatever the decade after that was, the last one. And I think also it was stuff that we must, have known our bodies knew was wrong at the time but there was nothing I mean you look at MLC spoke about tabloid culture and the way that it um you know just culture generally the way that it centers women and you know corrects them and and tells them that they have to be something different and uh it's

constantly judging them right um I yeah I feel like that's something we all experienced and I so it was definitely rooted in that experience of what you experience in your 20s and you kind of put up with and you don't just put up with, you internalise it and almost collude with it, right? And then as you get into your 40s, you go, oh my God, I wasn't mad. No. That was wrong and that was inappropriate. But almost the culture around you meant that you had to. Yeah. You had to say, you had to say, you had to step out and say, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Wouldn't probably play out your favour? You'd be branded a difficult woman, wouldn't you? Or like I was looking at like, Blake Lively this week, you know, who's had a, you know, a lawsuit that her career has been

ruined because she was branded a mean girl. And I thought, are you telling me that there are not umpteen difficult Hollywood actors, men in Hollywood who are incredibly challenging. Their careers don't get smeared and ruined if they're, you know, nothing but perfect and nice, you know. And but for us, we have to turn up and be good girls. We're told, aren't we, from a young age? Be a good girl. Don't make a fuss. So how liberating or did difficult was it when you decided to give other people hope you were going to share the rawest, most difficult moments of your life? When I spoke about my OCD and alcoholism, mental health issues, all of it. I think it was most of my, the first few decades of my life

were living in this intense shame about who I was, intense shame and feeling of failure. And I was constantly trying to mask it. And through all sorts of, of things, you know, alcoholism, addiction, not eating enough, eating disorders, you know, depression. It was all just, Anita, it makes me feel really sad for that version of me, the pressure that I put on myself, but I know I still put pressure on myself, just in different ways. And I think when I finally said it out loud, this is who I am and I'm a mess. I'm a mess. I'm a mess. And it was like this beautiful moment where I realized everyone around me was a mess too. Like the response, when I started writing about having obsessive compulsive disorder and and then addiction afterwards, the messages that

I received from people saying, me too, if not OCD or depression, some other form of mental illness, was like, oh my God, it's the most normal thing in the world to feel weird. As a South Asian woman, I carry shame like a big knot in my belly. Yeah. Just so controlling. And when I've read you, books, it's like, oh, release. It's okay. You're also a proponent of body positivity. Yes, I am. Yes, you are and we love it. How are you feeling at the moment about all the noise around GLP ones? How am I feeling? I mean, I find it deeply depressing, Anita, that we have gone back

many ways. Listen, there are many different reasons that people take GLP ones. If you are sort of, and and they can be used very kind of responsibly and healthily. But I think it has given us permission to analyze people's bodies again. I am just like, we have forgotten what real bodies look like. We really have. And I was so, I was whooping when Melsie earlier said how much effort she had to put in to look that way, right? So on Sunday, I will be running the London Marathon in my pants for the third time. I've done this three.

I first ran the London Marathon in my, just my own. underwear as a size 18 to 20 woman. I first did it in 2018. Did I think that nearly 10 years later, I would still be having to do this? No. But I am more than ever. And every time I do it, because I am known for going out there as a 15 stone woman in my bra and pants, and I wobble around and my boobs wobble around and I get all these messages telling me, your bra is it supportive enough? That's disgusting. I'm like, this is what bodies look like when they move and we've forgotten about it. Brianne Gordon, you are a magnificent woman. A magnificent woman.

How are you feeling about the marathon? I'm excited. Yes. I love it. I can't wait to go out there and wobble my salient like around London. You have an army of supporters behind you. We'll be cheering you on and you have come in here and just boosted me. And I'm sure you've done the same for lots of our listeners.

I want to wish you the best of luck with your first ever novel. People Pleaser, which is out now. Out today. Brianie, thank you. Thank you. Always a pleasure. stand in my majesty and I just want to say to everyone listening at home, go out there and stand in your majesty today too. In your pants, if you want to. Like Brianie. Thank you so much. I'm going to

read out some of your messages. I was raised to work hard and help people to make them happy. I put so much energy into sporting that I became a great support character, but didn't have my own story. Now I've learned that I have to fight my need to please. It's not a passive choice. It's an active daily battle to reprogram so I can keep energy for myself and my dreams. Carmen, very interesting message. And you're absolutely right. Another one here from Helen saying, I've people pleased a parent as friends, bosses for decades. It was only after becoming quite ill mentally that I stopped, looked around and realised how one way the relationships were, it takes a lot to stand up for yourself when your self-esteem is in your boots, but I can't half recommend it. Here's to being braver

in later years. Yes, Helen. Yes, exactly. Thank you so much. 84844. Thank you, Briney. Now, this story has been making headlines recently. An 18-year-old wheelchair user from Oldham described feeling embarrassed and infuriated after being asked to leave a Manchester nightclub just minutes after arriving. Maddie Haining went to Club Tropicana in the city's gay village with a friend, but within five minutes. She says a bar manager told her that her wheelchair. her was a safety or a fire risk and asked her to leave.

Club Tropicana issued an apology and launched an investigation into what happened. Well, Maddie joins me now and we're also going to talk to Dr. Sharnie Danda, who's a disability inclusion and accessibility consultant. Maddie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me what happened. Tell me what happened when you went to Club Tropicana. So me and my friend went in last Saturday and there was no problem with us going in there. they originally helped us in and said that we were okay to be in there as long as we were okay.

So we headed in expecting no problems and then within five minutes of us being in there, security came over and said that the bar manager had said that we had to leave because I was a fire hazard and a safety hazard. So I asked if the bar manager could come and speak to me about this himself and he went and got him. The bar manager came over and was basically just saying that I had to leave, that I was a safety hazard and a fire hazard and that I had to leave. and that I had to leave the premises. How did you feel when you were asked to leave?

It was just infuriating, having to show the actual equality law on my phone and being able to prove my rights shouldn't be something that you have to do when you go on a night out. It's just ignoring to be half to do that. How did they respond when you showed them the Equality, the 2010 Equality Act on your phone? It was just completely ignored most of the time. like they just kept repeating, oh, you have to leave, you're a saved hazard, you're a fire hazard, you need to leave. They never actually, like, I had an actual response or reaction to what I was showing them on my phone. How, did they explain how you were causing a safety or a fire hazard?

No, they never went into any more explanations when I was asking, oh, how am I a fire hazard, or how is this a risk, or this is illegal to do this, they never explained why they were saying this, or what their reasoning was, they just kept repeating themselves. I'm going to bring you in, Shani, from your experience, tell me what your reaction is to what you're hearing. And is this type of incident common for wheelchair users? Yes, it is unfortunately. I've been out with two of my friends who are wheelchair users. I was taking them to a bar somewhere where I regularly go and we were all turned away.

And again, the same reasons were cited, insurance, fire hazard. But what we're talking about, you know, is something very, very basic. It's the right to have access to everyday social spaces, just like everybody else. And, you know, restaurants, bars, cafes, nightclubs. It's not a luxury. It's a part of social life, especially for young people. And I think perhaps what businesses need to understand better is that they have an anticipatory duty under the Equality Act to think ahead, to remove barriers for disabled people, and not just wait to be asked when we turn up. you should already expect and know that we are your customers.

What does the Equality Act say specifically about wheelchair users? So it talks about making reasonable adjustments and it doesn't specifically name wheelchair users because it's applicable for all disabled people. But the important bit is that duty is anticipatory. And, you know, as I said, you've got to expect us as your customer And I think another thing is, is businesses don't realize, disabled people have a combined spending power of 446 billion pounds a year.

I only ever see reports that life is struggling. Why are you turning away customers that want to be there? But, you know, what good looks like in this situation is for venues to plan ahead, think about step-free access, clear layouts, train staff, and that you're all adhering to one policy. think about how your customers are going to get in, enjoy the space and leave, and also how are you going to leave in an emergency situation as well. But most importantly, working with experts but involving disabled people at the heart of whatever you're doing.

Back to you, Maddie. What did you think about the manager's threat to pass on any fines the venue received to you? I do believe that this was just done as an intimidation tactic to get me to leave because they were repeating that I needed to leave multiple times and obviously I wasn't leaving because I knew my rights and was showing them that. I do believe it was used as an intimidation tactic or to get me to leave because the worker that I have on the video

states and it's on video that I've got that he doesn't know why he said this and that he cannot do this. So I don't know why it was ever said to me. It just feels like it was used to intimidate me and make me feel scared to leave. Well, we asked for a statement from the venue Club Tropicana and didn't hear back from them, but they had posted on Facebook on the 15th of April,

saying we take full responsibility as business owners for the treatment of Madison on the night. It was completely indefensible, unacceptable, unacceptable and appalling. We've not made a statement until the investigation was complete and Madison was informed of the outcome. Part of the outcome of the investigation is that we're reviewing our training protocols, we're also reviewing accessibility to Club Tropicana. Once again, we offer our sincerest apologies to Madison

for the stress and embarrassment. that she experienced in our venue. Maddie, the employee no longer works at Club Tropicana, and the club has already concluded their investigation. I apologise. What are your thoughts on the outcome? My thoughts, I appreciate that they've looked into it and the outcome of it,

especially with the work and how he treated me. But I think their investigation was done within a day, so it couldn't have been massive the thorough, and they've ignored my email response to them, and multiple emails from, like, people who have done interviews with and ignored it. And the only response that they've ever given was to ITV, and it was the exact same thing that they'd posted on social media, which is missing a lot of information and is lying about busyness,

saying they've looked at CCTV, which you can see on my video how much room and how empty it is. So I appreciated the investigation until this stuff came out and being ignored. Has this experience put you off going out? Yes and no, I think I'll be a bit more anxious and cautious ever going into new places that I've not been before because I won't know the outcome or what to expect or what could happen but I know I feel safe and I know that I'm okay in places that I've been before so I still feel comfortable going to those. I can see you nodding along Shani.

What advice would you give to disabled people who experience similar treatment? Yeah, it's estimated between 40 and 60% of disabled. people who have experienced situations like this. And I think what Maddie did was brilliant, you know, bringing up her rights under the Equality Act because now the venue can't ever deny that they weren't aware that, you know, Maddie was a protected characteristic under the Act. But also, it's hard because when you go out, you're not expected to have to verbatim cite the Act.

You're going out for a night out to have a good night with your friends. So wherever you can, try and, you know, do a bit of research into venues, are accessible, value-disabled customers. There are a few ways to do that. There are, you know, guides online. It is a lot of research. And then, yeah, in the moment, try and record what you can like Maddie did, try and get details, if anything does happen, what was said, who, the time.

And then if you want to or have the energy to, you can then follow that up. But I just think that's, that's, the point, isn't it? The energy to have to do this as well as everything else. All you want to do is just go out and have a drink with your friends but then you have to have the energy to push for change as well. Yeah, and quite often for us as

disabled people, this is one of many areas who are having to be fight for something. So you kind of have to pick your battles and choose your priorities as well. Maddie, you posted about the incident on Instagram. What response did you get? The response was absolutely massive and it was

pretty much all positive. People agree me and seeing that this is wrong, people who are educated on the act, and even just people educated as humans, knowing that this isn't okay to have happened. I'd like to thank you both for speaking to me this morning, Maddie Haining and Dr. Shani Danda, and I know that you reached out, Maddie to Manchester City Council, and a spokesperson for them said the councillor's committed to promoting accessibility and inclusivity in all licence premises. We're aware of the situation and have spoken with Miss Haining and.

will be meeting with the venue to understand this incident and their response in more detail. Now, Callie Hoga Thackeray was bronze medalist in the women's half-marathon at the 2024 European Athletics Championships and a member of the gold medal winning team in the 2024 European Half-Marathon Cup held at the same time. She represented Great Britain at the 2024 Paris Olympics and England at the 2022 Commonwealth Games.

Well, she's just returned from the Boston Marathon, which took place on Monday, where she completed the marathon 22 weeks pregnant with her first child. Callie, welcome to Women's Hour. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. So let's wind this back a little bit because this is your third marathon during this pregnancy. I think we should work our way up to Boston. What happened at the first one?

That was Hollolulu. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I had no idea I was pregnant in the first one. Yeah, it was in Honolulu. It was a really hot, humid day. And I didn't understand why I was feeling sick because I'm not, I'm not normally like that. And on Mile 19, when the race was getting hot, I was like, oh, no, like, here we are. Like, this sickness randomly just came over for me.

And I'm thinking, oh, no, this is not good. But genuinely, just put it down to the humidity. Somehow got through the race, somehow won the race, which I'm so grateful for. that I was able to get through it and win it and then to find out several weeks later that I was pregnant was just, oh, a big moment and probably the reason why I had that sickness that day and then it all made sense after that.

Wonderful news to receive. And then you decided to run Houston. I know. I know. Tell me about the decision to do that. Yeah, it was a big decision just because it was, I just found out on Christmas Eve actually that I was pregnant and then

me and my husband were talking and we were like okay because he coaches me and he was like what are we going to do about Houston we've still got it on the calendar it's in two weeks time thankfully I was recovering well like everything was going right within training still still felt really great on the most part obviously yeah classic first trimester symptoms were happening

but other than that I was like you know what I'm going to try I'm going to at least start the race if I have any red flags in the race, I can always, you know, it's fine. I'll deal with it and I can always step out. But I want to at least try and give it a go. Somehow won the race. And I don't know how I did it, I'll be honest. It was a different kind of hard, but it was just beautiful to do like it,

because my husband was actually pacing me in the race as well. So it was like a little family unit. Only me and him really knew about it at the time because I was eight weeks into pregnancy. So it's still pretty early, like two months in. And yeah, just so thankful I was able to get around and get the win. I love your casual northern underplaying of it. Somehow won again. Somehow.

It's because you're an incredible elite athlete. And then at 22 weeks, you just decided, well, you decided to run Boston. How are you feeling at that point? Yeah. That one, honestly, every day has been so wildly different leading up to it. I was like, no, I wake up one morning. Absolutely not. I'm not doing this. This is, this is, might be stupid. I think I'm like over my head here with this marathon,

22 weeks into pregnancy. And then another day I'd be like feeling amazing in training. I'm like, no, do you know what? Why not? I can do this. There's so many women now showing that we can do this. We can still run marathons if you want to and if you've got, you know, a low-risk pregnancy and you can do it and your body's allowing you to and the symptoms are minimal. I think why not? Do you know, my body is callous. I've been running since I was 12 years old. I spoke to the doctor. I spoke to the doctors and thankfully they were all like on board with it and I thought you know what why not so I'm going to try and I can always you know like again listen to my body and drop out if I need to but thankfully I was able to get through it and yeah get to the end and feel good so I'm really

happy we should say that as I said as I did mention you are a trained elite athlete and you do have a lot of support around you you have all the right people talking to you making sure that you're in peak fitness to be able to do it. And it's not necessarily something any pregnant woman should try and undertake. No. No. Only if your body allows it. And you really feel up to it and you're calloused enough for the event. And yeah, I do think it is amazing.

We're seeing it more and more. But at the same time, women, growing humans, just on its own, is absolutely an incredible feat. So throwing marathons into the mix as well is definitely, yeah. In general, how have people reacted to you running well pregnant? Yeah, do you know what? On the most part, I've had mainly really supportive comments, even on the course out there, it was incredible.

So thankfully, I think a lot of people knew about my story and there was many even passing me going, you're amazing, keep up, you're doing incredible. And, yeah, no, on the most part, really, like supportive comments, but obviously you are going to get a few others, what are probably still against it, was still living in that era, you know. It was only 1967 where the amazing,

Catherine, Switzerland, went into the marathon and was nearly dragged off the course. And women weren't even allowed to run marathons, you know. So I'm just so grateful on the most part that, yeah, but support on this, on this circumstance, I'm able to run. But obviously, you're always going to get some, like, backlash against running while pregnant as well.

You've been a professional athlete since 2023. you've had huge success. How does the prospect of becoming a mother impact that? Oh, it's so special. I just think it gives it a new purpose now. I just think I've, yeah, it's honestly like giving me an extra boost. That mum, that mum strength has already kicked in and I felt that in the Boston Marathon and I think honestly that's what got me through throughout those challenges. But yeah, just super grateful for this next chapter. You mentioned that you're trained by a husband, Nick. So running's a family business. It is a family business

He was also on that start line In the men's elite field And he did amazing I ran at 212 in the Boston Marathon as well So it's definitely a family business For sure Unbelievable I cannot wait to see the little baby trainers

When they come out Some people including Brianie Who we've just had on the programme Talking about running the marathon She'll be in her pants They're running the London Marathon this weekend Any advice? What would you say to them?

I love it I'll be there, we'll be there supporting. I absolutely love the London Marathon weekend. It's iconic. Can't wait to be there supporting and actually like chewing everyone on and being everyone's high person that weekend. So I would just honestly like embrace it. You've got this, celebrate the start line of a marathon.

That in itself is an amazing thing. You've done the training and you're going to compete in the London Marathon. Embrace that feeling and just go and enjoy it. Wonderful. To listen to your body. Top advice from Callie Hewager Thacker. Thackeray. Thank you so much, Callie. And all the best with your next adventure.

Thank you so much. That's it from me on tomorrow's program. I'll be talking more marathon running with BBC broadcaster Sophie Rayworth. She only started running at the age of 40, but has gone on to complete 20 marathons and 10 ultramarathons. And she'll be telling me all about the love affair with running. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hi there. I'm Izzy Judd and I'm so pleased to be back with the Music and Meditation Podcast series six. We'll be talking about everything from reframing anxiety to getting a good night's sleep. So if you need to find some moments of calm in your day, subscribe to the music and meditation podcast on BBC Sounds.