Woman's Hour - Melanie Sykes, Menopause, Marching Midwives

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

TV and radio presenter Melanie Sykes has just announced that she’s been diagnosed with autism at the age of 51. She says it's 'truly life changing, or rather life affirming… and so many things make sense’. She tells us more. Colin Pitchfork, the man who murdered and raped Lynda Mann and Dawn Ashworth but was released from prison recently, has been sent back to jail for breaking his licence conditions. We speak to the former Justice Secretary, Robert Buckland, who always maintained that Pitchfork should remain behind bars. We also hear from Dawn's uncle, Philip Musson.David Salmon comes onto the programme to talk about his wife, who took her life last year after suffering extreme menopausal symptoms. He wants other men to pick up on signs that the women in their lives may be struggling. We have the fourth episode of our series on toxic relationships.And we hear why thousands of midwives took to the streets at the weekend to voice their concerns about safety. Kay King from March With Midwives Alliance and White Ribbon Alliance UK speaks to us.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Did you watch Adele's Palladium special last night? You're still humming a power ballad. Has that got you off to a good start to the week? I didn't manage to see it, but I do want to catch up. But in terms of today's programme,

the presenter and model Melanie Sykes is going to be with me. She's just announced she's been diagnosed with autism at the age of 51. And she said of her assessment, the diagnosis has been truly life-changing or rather life-affirming. So many things now make sense. And I wanted to ask you today, if you have been diagnosed with something later on in your life, how has it changed your view of things? How has it perhaps, as Mel says, made certain things make sense a little more? I personally was only diagnosed with endometriosis at the age of 31. And I suddenly thought, oh, that wasn't normal how I was having those periods. For instance,

thinking something, you know, was wrong with me and right with everyone else. And it turns out I was right. But how has it been for you? It doesn't have to be something in the similar vein. It could be something completely different. Those sorts of things can really change the way you look back on your life

and also how you look ahead. I should also say, I know people who've been diagnosed with various things who wish they hadn't known, who wish it hadn't been made clear to them. So however it's come to you, perhaps a later diagnosis, doesn't have to be that late either. How has it affected you? Was it a positive or negative force in your life? Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, at bbc women's hour or email me your take on this through our website also on today's show why thousands of women took to the streets

yesterday regarding maternity services and one man's brave mission regarding the menopause but first the double child murderer colin pitchfork is back in prison, less than two months after he was controversially released. It's understood that the 61-year-old breached his licence conditions. Colin had spent 33 years in jail for raping and murdering two 15-year-old girls, Linda Mann and Dawn Ashworth, in Leicestershire in the 80s. He was also the first murderer to be convicted using DNA evidence. Just before coming on air, I spoke to Robert Buckland, the very recent former Secretary of State for Justice and also the former Lord Chancellor, who was replaced by Dominic Raab a fortnight after Colin Pitchfork was released in September.

Well, first of all, I think we should be grateful to the experienced and hard-working probation officers for taking swift action here to enforce the license conditions on Edgehawk. They were amongst the most onerous license conditions we'd ever seen in the country. So that is a positive, but it does beg the question, why are we here in the first place? Why did we have this revolving door? You know, two months ago he's released, now he's back inside. My view, bluntly, is that he should never have been released. And that's why I raised my concerns back in the summer. And that decision now, do you think anybody at the Parole Board, I understand there's now 28 days to review what to do next. Do you think it will be viewed, because it's independent, we should say, to the government, will be viewed as wrong?

Well, I think the parole board as an independent body need to look at the evidence. The evidence now, I think, is very clear. This is a man who was released within weeks of his release. His behaviour was so concerning that the probation service acted swiftly to return him to prison. That's surely got to be a factor now that they have to take into account in assessing risk to the public, because that's their job. The job of the parole board is to assess the risk to the public. Public protection has to be absolutely at the centre of their considerations. And I frankly very much hope that we don't see this man being released again. But why should the public trust the Parole Board? When you were Justice Secretary, you wrote to the Parole Board over this case, asking it to re-examine its decision, and that was rejected. Hence, he was released. Yeah, I mean, you know, for all the good work

that is done by people in the Parole Board, it only takes one or two really bad cases to damage their reputation. I'm afraid in this case, it's shown that the work that I'd started when I was Justice Secretary, a root and branch review of the parole board was absolutely the right thing to do. And I think now it's for government to come forward with further recommendations as to how we can tighten up the process to make sure we don't see a repeat of cases like Colin Pitchfork. But I mean, it's been reported that he was sidling up to girls and sidling up to young girls, I should say. And of course, with, you know, what's happened only in the last few months with the rape, abduction and murder of Sarah Everard. And of course, people thinking about women's safety a lot more, I would say, I think at the moment. Is our parole board fit for purpose having made this decision?

Well, I think the question is the right one. I think the government should be coming up with proposals to just recalibrate what the Parole Board does. I mean, first of all, Emma, I know it might sound like a trite point, but I think, you know, frankly, the title, what does it mean? I mean, I think we should start with getting the description of this body right. You know, what it should be described as is a public protection board. That's its job. It should be assessing risk, particularly risk in this case to women and young girls, and then only releasing people if it is necessary to release them and that the public are truly safe if people are released because you're right

the context within which this comes is a pretty horrifying one you know we're in a position in our society where you know some people are saying that as a result of what has happened that women and girls should somehow keep themselves safe and and stay and stay home which is entirely the wrong message if we're going to live in a free society and if women and girls are going to have the same access to ordinary life that everybody else does. It seems to be topsy-turvy. Instead of focusing on vulnerability of the victims,

we should be relentlessly bearing down on perpetrators and either getting them before the courts or, if they are in the system, making sure they can't harm people ever again. Do you think then the parole board is fit for purpose at the moment? I think reform is necessary and I think that we can do better. And that's why I've come up with suggestions. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the work that I was doing on the review was

progressing when I was Justice Secretary. My intention has been to get on with it this year, and I hope that my successor will appreciate the urgency of the situation and come up with proposals such as the ones that I've mentioned, changing the test, changing the name, opening up

the parole board to more transparency so that we could understand why it makes decisions as opposed to just the decisions themselves. All this work is necessary. This case has thrown up again a horrific example of how things can go wrong. We need action soon. Well, it has been reported that Dominic Raab, the Justice Secretary, the present day Justice Secretary, is looking at this and the reforms. I should say we also invited him on to the programme or a member of the government this morning, but no one was able to join us. But coming away from what reforms may or may not happen and just coming back to what is a reality that a man was out on the street that a lot of people did not want out on the street, not least, you know, the relations of the victims of this man. And now he's gone back into prison. It's been reported even if he were allowed to return to an open prison, he would probably not be able to make another application

to be released on licence until at least the middle of 2023. But the point is, he will still be able to apply and there will be some who will say this man should die in jail. Do you think he should die in jail? Well, frankly, I would like to see Pitchfork remain in jail. And were he sentenced now, of course, he would have had a whole life order. So we wouldn't have been in this position. But the law was different back in the 80s. I think that what has happened in the last few days should weigh very heavily on those making decisions. And remembering the point that I raised at the time

I asked for this matter to be reconsidered, this is a man whose compliance with the authorities is in doubt. There were doubts raised in the material before the parole board last time. This particular set of circumstances sounds to me to confirm those doubts. Is this somebody that we could ever trust to truly wish to reform and comply with the authorities? That surely has to weigh heavily on future decision makers and I very much hope we never see this man in the community ever.

So he should die in jail and not be released. Of course, there's the argument, I suppose, on the other side of this, which perhaps you feel the balance isn't quite right, that the ambition has always got to be the ability to release people and to rehabilitate. What do you say to that? Well, look, I do believe in that, and I've seen examples where that has worked.

But, you know, against the importance of rehabilitation and the hope of change has to be balanced. The really important consideration about protection of the public. If the system isn't protecting the public adequately from serious and violent offenders, then it's failing. And that has to be the number one test here. You know, there is room for rehabilitation, of course there is, and there are plenty of cases where that succeeded. But for all those successes, it only takes one or two horrific cases to undermine confidence in the system. And if the public do not have confidence in the system, that's a big problem. Just finally, what would you like to say to the families of the victims of Colin Pitchford?

You know, of course, I've seen some remarks from some of them over the weekend. This re-arrest happened on Friday. But, you know, what would you like to say as the former Justice Secretary and as a serving MP? Well, first of all, my thoughts are with them. My heart goes out to them. I obviously followed their own experiences very closely. And I think I feel not just as an MP and a former minister, but as a parent myself, you know, this case is brought back up, all the horror of the past comes back like a wave upon them. And, you know, putting myself in their shoes, it must be a horrific time for them. And I have the fullest possible sympathy for them. And I wish them well.

You know, I'm sure the whole country is with them as they go through what must be unbelievable anguish. Robert Buckland, the former Justice Secretary. Well, listening to that, it's Philip Musson, uncle of Dawn Ashworth, who was one of the 15-year-old schoolgirls raped and murdered by Colin Pitchfork, along with Linda Mann. Thank you for talking to us this morning. Good morning, Philip. Good morning, Emma. And of course, those sentiments from the former Justice Secretary, of course, echoed by so many this morning and over the weekend when hearing the news of Colin Pitchfork being re-arrested. May I ask for your reaction to that? Well, I said to you before, when we spoke previously, that this was an experiment,

and it was an experiment whereby the well-being of the children and families in the location this experiment was being tried, they were being subject to this experiment. And I don't think people should take such risks. It was an experiment, and events have borne out the fact that it was an ill-judged one. People like Colin Pitchfork are not going to be released into society and go and live as hermits. They're going to make connections. They're going to try to form relationships. I don't know what the cover

story is that they give them, but, you know, I would... As I said to you before, there are some crimes I appreciate we can't lock up. The vast majority of criminals can throw away the key, but there are just one or two who commit

such heinous offences against society that they can't be successfully repatriated safely back into society, in my view, and here's one of them, and I hope they don't try this again. Where were you when you found out about this? Well, that's another point. I mean mean I've just been trying to catch some of Robert Buckland's comments most of which I concur with but

the sympathy from the family it wears a bit thin I wrote to Robert Buckland I wrote to Alberto Costa not difficult letters letters of of constructive letters and I haven't heard a thing. In fact, I have never heard anything from any of the authorities that have had anything to do with pitchfork. Journalists have kept me updated, and whilst they can be accused of being intrusive at some points in time, without their oversight of this matter, I would have Buckland when it was first made to controversially release Colin Pitchford.

But people will find that very difficult to comprehend that the families haven't heard back from, as was the Justice Secretary. Have you heard from Dominic Raab, the new Justice Secretary? No, nobody at all. Only journalists have kept me in the loop about developments as far as, you know, up until the point of time when they themselves have known something. So on Friday when this news broke, were you finding out at the same time as the rest of us? I had a telephone call from a Daily Mail reporter about 15 minutes before I heard it on BBC News. How did that make you feel when you heard it?

Well, you know, a tragedy like this in the life of the family and what happened with Dawn and Linda Mann, these events, they're like logs in the weir really you never you never you never can put the thing completely to rest because the loss of their life is such a tragedy really and news like

this just tumbles the log up again in the water so you can never entirely come to terms entirely come to terms, well, come to terms, but not come to sort of any peace with these developments, with what Colin Pitchfork did. And I suppose that's part of when we're talking about reforms to the parole board, not least, of course, with how victims' families are communicated with uh by by such organizations or such bodies and as well as the government but also the impact this has on families when these

decisions or as you put it these experiments happen and then we see them fail yes i mean i appreciate that assessment of risk is isn't an science, but this decision to release him was an effrontery to natural justice as far as I'm concerned. The fact that he's given Cote Blanche to pick up his life again where he left off. I say Cote Blanche, I mean not entirely. He did have some restrictions uh placed upon him fortunately which uh led to you know his his being recalled but um you know if they were that confident about the risk assessment in the first place they wouldn't have needed all these uh sensors in

place to see if it complied with the behavioral parameters that they objected him to. How are the rest of the family, Philip, if I may ask? As you say, we did speak before when this was first announced and I just wanted to see how they are. Well, yes, you know, we... I think I can speak collectively. You know, there are just some crimes that are so dreadful that only a life tariff is appropriate.

And I do hope those in the decision-making process don't take this risk again, with the well-being of children and families in the community and in effective good use of public money as well. Thank you for taking the time and the energy, I should say, to talk to us today. You're welcome. Bye-bye. We do appreciate it.

Philip Musson there, the uncle of Dawn Ashworth, one of the 15-year-old girls raped and murdered by Colin Pitchfork, along with Linda Mann. As I said in the interview with the former Justice Secretary, we did invite the government on. We also asked for the, in terms of the Ministry of Justice and who was able to speak to us today, and as well as the Parole Board, we got a short statement from the Ministry of Justice saying, protecting the public is our number one priority. So when offenders breach conditions of their release and potentially pose an increased risk, we do not hesitate to return them to custody.

Messages, of course, coming in on that, remembering those girls and also to their families. And a message here from Anthony who's listening actually says, should never have been released. Crimes too major, don't agree with the death penalty, but life should mean life in his case. Now, I mentioned at the beginning of the programme that I'd be talking to somebody who has recently got a diagnosis and you've been getting in touch with some of your later on diagnosis, diagnoses and how they've affected your life. I'll come to those in just a moment.

But who am I talking about? You might know her from Radio 2, her former ITV show with Des O'Connor or her modelling days, of course, famously being the Boddington's woman who said, by heck, it's gorgeous. But what Melanie Sykes didn't know during all of those gigs was of her autism. She's just announced that she's been diagnosed with autism at 51. It was in a newsletter to readers of her online magazine, Frank. She wrote this week has been truly life changing or rather life affirming.

So many things make sense. Melanie Sykes, good morning. Good morning to you. Thank you so much for joining us today. I can imagine it's been quite a whirlwind. Yeah, but I'm managing it. I mean, I don't know if I'm an agent, so I'm just sort of working out who I want to speak to and who I don't and all that.

It's very nice to be in control. And just to say, I didn't say that in my advert i'm a stickler for facts oh sorry go on i love facts have i got it wrong i remembered it wrong yeah well it just wasn't my advert there was an advert that that was said but it's always attached to okay i am corrected and i will i will reframe that fact that's not a fact in my own mind but you're you're modeling or you're presenting or or however people know you you have a very strong uh fan base you've got lots of people who follow you and this wasn't something you knew during any of those gigs and only recently when was it last week uh yeah was it no

the week before I think Thursday the week before last and when you came out with this uh to to people around you and we'll get to how you were diagnosed. I mean, what's been the reaction? Well, I found out on Thursday, but I'd waited 10 days to get the diagnosis. So I'd already been processing what it means, actually, from when it was suggested to me. And the response has been amazing from the autistic community, just saying congratulations and it's interesting because people in the autistic community do say congratulations and people that aren't sometimes they'll ask me so what's the treatment like what you what were you gonna medication wise and I think well do I sound and look like somebody that needs to be medicated I mean you've known me

for 100 years and that's me being an autistic person. So it's not something that I want to treat and you can't treat it and nor would I want to. So it's been interesting, to say the least. And how did the assessment come about? Because I'm trying to get a documentary off the ground I set up a production company called to be frank productions um this year and I wanted to make a documentary about the education system and how it operates with autistic children and that it needs to be changed and I was working and working with Harry Thompson who is a writer and a speaker. All things autism means autistic. And we were just working together at my dining room table and he'd been with me 10 minutes and he suggested that I might have ADHD and, you know, potentially have an autistic profile.

And he said, why don't you get an assessment? So it made sense to me. I did. And it was a series of assessments over a period of days, for hours. And it came back that I'm autistic. So, yeah, it's fantastic, really, because it does, like I said, it does make sense of a lot of things. I'm a very sensitive person. I care about the truth and facts, as you realised this morning. And I, yeah, it's just a million ways in which I am autistic.

And as you know, I have a son with autism too, who is autistic too. So I've been around it for a long time. Was there any point when you were going through that process with your son that you connected it to yourself? No, not at all. Absolutely not at all, because obviously he presents in a completely different way to me. But it is interesting because obviously it is considered news that women are not being diagnosed. But I knew that 15 years ago. It was something somebody said to me 15 years ago.

Tino's 17. He was diagnosed when he was about two and a half. And I was told back then that it was not rare in girls. It just wasn't picked up in girls 15 years ago and and at that point what was there anything even though the presentation in your your son and respecting his privacy but was different you never thought to yourself there was anything that you had read or heard about it because you were engaged with it that could relate to yourself I honestly I honestly didn't know but obviously um speaking to Harry and him actually seeing me and seeing my behavior and how I operate, he saw me clearly.

And also all of my, especially being in the industry you're in, when you say you're not able to do something or people just say, oh, but you're fantastic at it. Like that is enough to be able to feel better about doing something well actually a lot of the things that I've had to do I've done it with a lot of um anxiety and duress um but it's how I pay the bills so I'm I've got to do it you know and it's not what do you mean um things you've had to do and then there's been anxiety just just being a model. I was a model for eight years and I don't really like being in front of camera. I mean, I was quite wooden, really, at the beginning and I learned to move and I've never been massively comfortable with cameras and I've spent my entire, well, two careers in front of them.

And, you know, now I'm the editor-in-chief of a magazine and I started it for many reasons because it's a women's magazine, but it's also, you know, Frank is about sustainability and I'm able to be behind the scenes saying what I want to say, being an advocate for the things that I want to be an advocate for without actually being visible. So when you say, you know, you look back and so many things make sense, when you look back at your TV and modelling career, what now fits in to place that perhaps didn't before? Is it because you mentioned that anxiety? Do you think things would have been easier if you'd known? Well, I think it's not just the actual job itself no I probably I think oh god there's a million things to say about it but I think the industry at large I found problematic um because there's been moments where I've absolutely loved what I'm doing I'm very good

at not driving a um program I like to be somebody that's responding to other people driving a program, but I have been asked to, you know, be in control of a format. And I've had game shows and things where I'm, my focus has been the format, and I've not been able to bring my personality to it as well, because I can't do the set, two things together so yeah I often look at people on tv and go how how do they do that you know they can absolutely bring themselves to it whereas I am the juggle for me has been has been quite um difficult and as I said when you you tell somebody that you might have a few sensitivities around certain things everybody just says oh but you're fantastic at it and then you just have to deal with it and do it.

And in terms of the sort of signs that your colleague was picking up on, what were they, do you think? When he met you and he was saying, you know, let's do this assessment or I think we should have a look if you are, was it something about the way you were talking or the way you were not answering? What do you think it was? No, I think it was the things I was doing, not doing.

It's that I'm able to go back and forth with different conversations and uphold lots of things. But I also do things at top speed. I don't know. You'd have to ask Harry that, really. i don't know you'd have to ask harry that really i don't i don't know it's just i suppose it's for people listening as well who who might be thinking about this and how it relates to them and also how it perhaps relates to their children it's always good especially because of what you said about women and how it's hidden to kind of hear how you present it yeah I um the thing is there's so many varied uh ways in which you you um there's so many varied behaviors so but um yeah just yeah I think speed was the big thing I mean he's only been with me 10 minutes but that's why I was also struck by it 10 minutes and then and then I suppose you're

at that point I mean how are you feeling about it now you've had some time with it I'm I'm feeling fantastic about it I mean I was from the get-go um and but also it's such a big piece of news and um I'm processing it by the second um yeah so I I think it's going to take me a long time I mean I don't I don't know I mean at the moment it's it's news to me and I'm just working with it but it's interesting you know I'll be you know I was in the restaurant yesterday and I'm suddenly absolutely understand that levels of noise and how I'm I can't really do a big group of people. I can only focus on one person at a time. If somebody's speaking loudly on another table, I cannot focus on my table because I've suddenly tuned into somebody else's conversation, which is one of the reasons, I guess, why I wasn't great with an earpiece on Talkback and television, because I't I can't handle two two conversations at the same time um and it's those sensitivities but also there are you know there are so many ways in which people are autistic and you know but there's like this list that apparently that you have to

tick and and it's things like not being empathetic well you know that's not all autistic people I you know I have great empathy for people I am so sensitive sensitive to other people's needs and and sometimes more more than myself and I think I've said you know and I when anybody tells me anything I absolutely believe them because I'm so honest about my feelings and how I see things. I always say it, but I expect that from everybody else. But of course, people lie. And so I've found myself in situations where I've been hoodwinked quite a bit by people. And that is now the realisation of that is a relief as well.

Yes, I've had some conversations with women in your situation before where they say you know getting the joke can be quite difficult and taking people for their word and not and just believing people is part of what they do i've worked with alan carr i know what's funny yes you do yeah but but like i said deadpan delivery sometimes not so much and obviously if i don't know they're a comedian, I wouldn't know that they were trying to be funny. Well, I think also that sort of ability to sort of, you know, have that empathy and say what you think.

I was looking back and you've talked about, you have talked about, feeling like you have to constantly educate men about how to behave around women. And you talk very straight and that's part of your delivery in social media and also with what you're doing with your writing and do you think that's sort of played into it your ability to just speak very straight about things yeah and I've always had it down to that I'm from the north of England and you know but again not all northern people are straight talkers but I just thought that was part of my cultural background.

And, you know, and I do speak my truth. I mean, the only time, when I first got into this industry, I was 26. So, and I was being interviewed by the press and stuff like that. And I was always so open and honest about everything. And then I learned not to do that because I realized people sensationalize what you say. So I've been managing it for years where I'll only give as much as I want to give and even

that gets twisted and I'll say to journalists I don't know why you waste my time and yours because you write what you want anyway and I think sometimes journalists just think I can't believe she says this and sometimes my uber honesty doesn't make the cut in the magazine because it's a narrative that's been dictated by them and so you're just a puppet well I'm not a puppet and I'm and as you say I'm a presenter but actually I'm not anymore um I will make documentary programs and I don't even want to author some of them but I'm being asked to author some of them because my voice is strong and I will do it but I'll do it in a way that's comfortable for me and I'm the editor of a magazine that's what I do I haven't modeled for over 25 years and

I had a fabulous career and I loved meeting people my education was traveling the world and and and I don't I'm not knocking it it's just it's a long time ago and going forward I just want to be to just be strong in the autistic community and help change the education system because clearly it was I wanted to ask about that just if I can on the education side what what do you want to change there with this knowledge and what are you already looking at right well all i'll say is this everybody has got their own strengths everybody has got their own niche and their own interests and i just feel sad that everybody is forced into and i keep thinking of that mincemeat um mincemeat that was in that video years ago another brick in the wall where you go in there

you crowbarred into a situation your personal interests are quashed and therefore you can't thrive in the things that you love and that to me isn't education at all that is suppressing your natural learning abilities and how you access your learning. And everybody's missing a beat. If you're not, if you're not leading to the strengths of an individual, a lot of people get left behind and labelled that it's a disorder as well. It's not a disorder. So these are the things I'm sure that you're, as you say say you're going to be looking at in in the dark and talking about more but it's good to get a taste of what you're thinking about at the moment and we're getting a lot of messages in response to to you and what you're saying and also people getting in touch about all sorts of other things that they've been

diagnosed with later in life and how it's impacted them all the best to you melanie sykes thank you thank you thank you so much um we've got a message here that's just come in from Jill saying, my son was diagnosed with schizophrenia several years after I'd first become concerned about his wellbeing. It couldn't have come at a more devastating moment in my life, yet alongside the pain of his diagnosis, there was relief too. Relief that he might now be able to get the help he so clearly needed and relief that my concerns had been validated after feeling alone with my fits for so long. I knew years before, says Sarah in Cornwall. Good morning to you.

Before diagnosis, I must be autistic because I did the test that's widely available online. I was properly diagnosed four years ago and it made me glad and proud to know why I am the way I am. My dyslexia diagnosis, age 48, literally changed my life. I stopped feeling I'd underachieved, took stock of how far I'd actually come in spite of it and actually felt better about myself for the first time. I'm now much better equipped to prioritise realistic plans over those which I'll never complete.

I actually feel proud to be part of a creatively thinking community who stand out for not doing what's considered to be normal, says Emma. Hello to you and good morning. Many more coming in. Let me just go to this one from Christine who says, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's aged 61 and it's changed my life in many ways. I'm now 66 and I feel I'm now making a difference both in my life and in others living with this incurable disease. I couldn't just sit back and do nothing. I wanted to have some control over my life. I've started a local support group. I have a very positive outlook on life and I believe in living my best life. None of this would have happened without my diagnosis. So that is my story. Christine, thank you for feeling like you could share it. Off the back

of Melanie Sykes there talking about her diagnosis with autism. Keep your messages please coming in about late diagnosis and how it's changed your life. 84844 is the number you need to text or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. But in terms of keeping with awareness raising of how things can impact you, in the UK the average age of menopause is 51. It affects every woman differently but for many it can bring unpleasant physical, emotional and psychological symptoms that can be very challenging to deal with. David Salmon's wife, Linda, took her own life in April 2020. She had been suffering extreme anxiety, which appeared connected to COVID. But when David was watching an episode of BBC's Look North earlier this year about the menopause, he realised his wife, then aged 56, may have well been suffering from serious menopausal

symptoms too. And David now is speaking out because he would like people to be more knowledgeable about the potential impact of menopause and joins me this morning. David, hello. Hello. Thank you so much for talking to me and to all of our listeners today. I should say we're also going to be talking to Janice Reimer shortly, member of the British Menopause Society's Council and Professor of Gynaecology at King's College London. But to you, David, why do you want to talk out about this

and what do you want to say? Really, it's just to make men aware of the potential of the menopause. I've been through losing my wife and I don't really want anybody else to go through what I'm going through. It was a complete waste of my life really. My wife loved life, she knew she loved and it was really a shame to go really. I had to get across to everybody, just really I don't want to be atomising towards the ladies but

I'm just here really to get the men talking to talk to the partners to tell them, understand more about menopause, get to learn more about what the ladies are going through and help them as much as they can. I know that you were concerned about her and you got her to go to her GP. Had her or how had her behaviour changed that you were worrying?

Oh, yes. Yeah, to say the least, yes. She'd been going through menopause, I'd say for two or three years. The usual things are plushies, loose wings, crying, laughing. But then it really came, it took a bad lift. For the last, when the COVID came, she was working at a supermarket and the COVID came and just sort of, that helped towards her symptoms. She really went downhill from

that day. It altogether was about, I'd say, 11 days in total. You know, the last sort of three days when she got diagnosed as anxiety, she just went she um she talked to me but not really any conversation she'd answer all my questions but that was it she was like a just literally a walking blank really she she really went downhill at the time i really felt so i'm so sorry to interrupt david i just want to acknowledge that the line that you're speaking on isn't the easiest to hear. So I'm hoping we can all hear you. I'll persevere for now just because I really do want to hear what you have to say, as I'm sure all of our listeners do as well. So in terms of, she went blank, as you say.

But for you, as I mentioned, you were watching something that made you think perhaps this was also linked to the menopause what was that that made you connect the two? It was again a one look north where they mentioned about suicide during menopause and I thought no they just get all plushies

ladies just get mood swings, I never thought it would lead to actual suicide I'm not saying never thought it'd lead to actual suicide. I'm not saying 100% it did lead to the wife's suicide, but it was a really big contribution to her life. Let me bring in Janice at this point, and we'll see if we can sort of improve that line as well, just because we do want to make sure we can hear you.

Janice, people listening to this will be thinking perhaps they didn't know about that potential link. What do we know? Emma, we know that there is a very high rate of suicide in women between the ages of 45 and 49. But it's very difficult to say, is this purely due to lack of estrogen, to your lack of your hormones? Because there can be a lot of other things happening at that time of life, you know, children leaving home, parents becoming very ill. So you may have other responsibilities or other factors affecting you. So I think it is very difficult. But David, that's a terrible, tragic story that you've told us. And I think what you're doing about saying men need to be aware of this is just so important.

Because men aren't very aware of this and can often be very unsympathetic. So that's another factor that happens as relationships break down because of the menopausal symptoms. And I think these menopausal symptoms can be devastating and certainly can affect mental health, quality of life, and then make women feel completely worthless. And I was interested in what you said about anxiety, because anxiety attacks and panic attacks are very common at the time of menopause. And I don't think women realize themselves this is the result of their hormones being low. And certainly men don't realize employers don't realize children don't realize friends don't realize so i think what you're doing about

raising awareness today of men i think is really important yes and and i know david you you wanted to talk about there was a there's a group called it's worth talking about that you've joined tell us about that well i'll just give a bit of story from that terrible day i knew my life was not going to be the same it was over i turned to drink big time i had no motivation why should i get out to bed my plans dreams had all vanished my family and friends were very supportive i could not function on a day-to-day basis. I was an emotional roller coaster. Two months off, my daughter suggested I should attend a local group. It's worth talking about. It's a mental group which tackles the mental health

of all men and women. Straight away I dismissed this and why should I need to go to this group? All I needed was more drink. Eventually I decided to attend this group. It took half of the first step to go through the door. I started to get my life back then. I went on track. Why? How? This was a set of strangers going through similar problems as me some what some powers they listen they understand and they did not judge yeah it was all about i was going to

say which is which is a big part of it not not judging and being part of that that that line i'm so sorry the line is is pretty tough but we've tried to persevere um thank you so much for talking to us today david and um trying to, as you say, raise awareness of some of the symptoms that can affect some women and making men more aware of that. And Janice there giving us an understanding of perhaps the impact on relationships and also what menopause can do to some women's mental health. We'll put some links on our website in terms of support for people. But David Salmon, Janice Reimer, thank you to both of you. And of course, please do check out the Women's Hour website for any support links there with regards to the discussions that we've just had.

But over the last couple of weeks, we've been hearing women's personal experiences about their relationships and why things have gone wrong. And here's our reporter Millieie Charles, with the latest. In the final part of this series about breaking free from damaging relationship patterns, I spoke to a woman we're calling Sadie, who describes her ex-partner as a narcissist. My friends had often commented on me being in codependent relationships, and me being codependent, and that used to really annoy me, I think because I just didn't understand what it meant. I thought codependent was when you're frightened to be on your own but I'm really happy on my own. What I learned much later on is that it's a different

kind of loneliness if you've gone through trauma at some point in your life, then it creates this hole or this loneliness, this deep feeling. And then you get attracted to other people, perhaps you've been through similar or some kind of trauma, and then you're both trying to essentially fill each other's holes. So that's what I learned about codependency. Tell me about the relationship that kind of spurred you to seek help. I felt like I was just in a good place in my life and I met this person and I felt perhaps a bit suspicious about her because she very quickly came into my life. She was very in love with me very, very quickly and I felt like I was the one putting the brakes on.

So yeah, I think there was a voice already saying, I'm not sure. Have you got an example of what kind of boundaries she was pushing? Wanting to stay at mine a lot, wanting to stay over very quickly. We spent every night together. And that's quite a difference if you spent a year or two alone so yeah just little things like that at first always finding a reason to for us to be hanging out together and me just not being able to say no because I mean I feel rejected when people say no so then I don't want to do it to the other person. And what was it that attracted you to her in the first place I think sadly her flattery got her everywhere you know she then went on to say she it was love at first sight for her but for me it

was my first proper girlfriend so there was a lot of fear for me a lot of unknown a lot of overcoming being with a woman for the first time properly like that it was a lot so it was just there was so much going on in my head then it wasn't a whirlwind falling in love for me it was like a really steep learning curve so much to deal with so yeah it was perhaps a bit more bamboozling for me. So it sounds like she pursued you very much would you say that's fair to say? Yeah I had reservations she was a lot younger than me. But I guess I got flattered by her really knowing what she wanted as well. And so, yeah, like it grew for me. Yeah, it just grew. She grew on me, I guess.

So how did the relationship develop? She started off really, really supportive. and you're like wow I've never been with someone that's so kind and so supportive and so helpful and I started to see that she was troubled quite depressive I could see that she self-harmed a bit and I'm just a very caring and supportive and loyal person so I guess I felt like that was the the dynamic between us but even after a month the cracks started to show these it's really blurry for me now the conversations that we had but I was less in love and I was very able to stay calm while she was twisting and turning her words and really going at me and I was just able to be very logical with her but that that these weird

fits they were like fits or like these weird anger weird turns in the conversation I was holding it down at first and then I remember the first night that I flipped out and was screamed at her oh my god you you hate me you hate me And I would scream that and she stopped immediately and then went really quiet and went really weird for like a night, a whole night and a day. And it became more and more regular until, I mean, we're talking by the end, it was like she was coming at me and attacking me verbally in different ways multiple times a day and I only had

the energy to defend myself for what I guess I felt really counted. So talk to me about the kind of dynamic between you how it sort of changed. I realise now it's narcissism what happens is so they build you up so at first you're not doing anything to earn this adoration but then they start halving that and then you start working twice as hard to get half of the reward. So manipulative and the other thing that would happen was in enclosed spaces so if we were in public on a train or if we were in a car together or in the back of the taxi, she had me locked in a space and she would start. And there were times when I ran out of trains, I ran across busy platforms, I ran out of moving cars to run away from her because she'd get me. One of the worst verbal attacks I ever had was in the back of a taxi and I was sat there like physically shaking and

wondering what this taxi driver if he understood us and if he heard everything that she was saying to me and how could anyone be saying these things that she was saying it's like oh horrible why did you stay I stayed because every so often I would react. Narcissists, they want you to react. It's what they're desperate for. They will come at you from every angle until you snap. When you snap, the whole argument becomes about you snapping, the whole focus. And then forevermore, everything in that relationship is all about those five times that you snapped. Not the six times a day they come at you but the five

times in the whole relationship where you broke I felt so guilty for the things that I did that I went back into the relationship trying to prove to myself and to her that I was a good person did you have any fun together well that's the other thing isn't it it's um the love bombing so after the argument then you get love bombed. So yeah, unfortunately, quite a lot of our relationship was made up of her, you know, making it up to me. You know, she was up for adventures. She was fun.

But of course, you're living for the good moments. They're renowned for being very sexual and good in bed. And yeah, but yeah, towards the end, I think I was so worn down so how did it end it ended the only way it can end with narcissists you have to completely cut them off she came to the door I had friends all gathered around me she's banging at the door phone calls so basically yeah the long story short is you have to delete and block and the one thing you have to delete and block at their numbers you have to have people with you to stop them because they're going to come to the door there were letters there was in the end emails I had to

work out how to block emails and so yeah the only way which is very very painful for I understand for her it must have been very very painful but you have to delete and block them and her ex-partner had also done the same thing completely deleted and blocked her it sounds like you know the strength of your friends around you helped you to do that my friends they were there to pick up the pieces so many times they heard her screaming down the phone they saw the way she controlled me when we were out they saw her text messages pinging up on my phone they saw the way she controlled me when we were out they saw her text messages pinging up on my phone they saw all of that and they just they gathered round I have a friend who is like a personal trainer and I started training and doing martial arts so I decided I

needed to train and exercise the anger out of my body she pushed me around physically she was very physical with me and so I wanted to become physically strong as well as mentally strong. And how did you start to put yourself back together after that? What do you think was the most useful thing for you in sort of your recovery from that relationship? Understanding my personality, understanding my traits and my patterns. I had a mum who suffered from depression a lot. So I was like the entertainer.

I was the peacekeeper between my mum and my dad who were separate entities. I was very much a go-between. Just only ever getting attention really if I was being useful and helpful. Just learning boundaries. What feels good? What doesn't feel good? Does this feel unhealthy? Is this making me tired? Or am I putting myself out there and for someone else when patterns and links to all of the stories we're telling there, too. Now, thousands of women took to the streets yesterday, as well as, of course, some men as part of a series of UK-wide marches led by midwives.

Their concern that this country's maternity services are in crisis. Midwives, doulas, doctors, they all united to call for the government to take action. Those who went marching, I should say. The Quality Care Commission 2021 report says maternity services have become critically unsafe for staff and users. As of July this year, 41% of all maternity services are rated inadequate or require improvement. Direct quote there from the report for safety. The Royal College of Midwives estimate the UK is short of 3,500 midwives and the problem is growing rapidly.

Kay King is part of the March with Midwives Alliance and also the executive director of the White Ribbon Alliance UK, which is a maternity and women's health charity. Good morning. Good morning. Great to be with you, Emma. Why and who was out marching yesterday? So yesterday the March with Midwives movement represented 22,000 people as a grassroots movement and I'm part of the White Ribbon Alliance

and we are hearing story and story of midwives that are feeling that they're stuck in the hamster wheel of a system where they're describing it as every shift being like a Russian roulette of what might go wrong for women and birthing people. So yesterday we took to the streets to say enough is enough. This needs to change. And what are you calling for? So this isn't just about increased recruitment. Whilst we do need to continue to recruit more midwives, this is also about the working conditions for midwives in the system.

We need to address recruitment, yes, but most importantly, we need to retain and we need to respect the midwives that we have in our system. We need to address recruitment, yes, but most importantly, we need to retain and we need to respect the midwives that we have in our system. We currently got midwives that are working shifts that are going 15, 16 hours, not getting any break, not getting the opportunity to actually eat any food on their shift. And they're traumatised by the level of care that they are unable to give to the women that they're serving. Well, there's also concern, of course, I was reading in your report yesterday about the level of unjabbed pregnant women. We've dealt with it, if you like, from the pregnant women's side. But of course, they are also then being exposed themselves, midwives and doctors.

Of course. And we know that we have reached a point of an imperfect storm because of Covid, because of the additional pressures. But this is not about Covid. We've been talking to the government about the issue in maternity for a very long time now and this is just the crisis point of issues that we've been raising for a really long time and the march with midwives is really an opportunity for us to say we need to have conversations we need to be listened to and urgent funding and urgent action needs to happen to redress the system. I mean the government say there's more midwives to your point about numbers working in the NHS now than any other time in history. The aim is to hire 1,200 more with the £95 million recruitment drive. It's not just, of course, you need the numbers, but as you say, it's also about conditions.

What change needs to happen there, do you think? So there's a lot of things that need to happen. I recently spoke to a midwife who said that their postnatal ward had 12 buckets along the corridor to collect the drips from the ceilings on the wards. We're hearing about women giving birth in corridors, giving birth on antenatal wards. There needs to be an increase of funding that also needs to be support to get midwives that are on the register back into work, flexible working conditions so that midwives who also have families at home are able to work on shifts that suit their patterns. So it's not just about the number of people who are registered as midwives. There's currently 250 self-employed midwives who can't work

because the government restrictions relating to indemnity insurance forbid them from doing so. We need to get everybody... There's also, I should just say here, there, a lot of women who've had good experiences, very grateful to their midwives. You know, it's not all as you describe, of course, as well. This is not about midwives delivering substandard care. This is about the conditions on midwives to be able to deliver quality care. I guarantee all midwives going into this profession do so with love and compassion for the people that they're caring for so if you are pregnant and turning up to your midwifery services

yes you will get a midwife who is able to give you quality care but we can't roll out things like the continuity of carer which we know is the best possible way for caring for women when we are under such restrictions well caking Kay King, we will see where this goes. And of course, I was endeavoured to speak to the government as well and represent demands or questions about this. Thank you for talking to us today. And I should say, of course, many midwives are too busy to come and talk to us today because they're back on shift after hopefully being able to do what they needed over their weekend.

Thanks so much for your company and time today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett. It's been concreted over and forgotten. The worst of it is still to come. This is only the beginning. She's right. It wants to suck me down into the

void and destroy me. And not just me. Everything. I'm the only one here at night. What if it comes for me next? If you really want to understand something, you have to go right to the edge. What is it? Is it something real? It's coming towards you. Sarah, it's right there in front of you. Sarah!

Harland. Available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.