Woman's Hour - Meloni meets Trump, Eczema, Girl choristers, Singledom

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

Italy's Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni - the first woman to occupy that role - has faced one of her biggest international tests yet. She is the first European leader to go to Washington to meet President Trump since his recent announcement of new tariffs on the EU. So how did Meloni's meeting with Donald Trump go, and how is Giorgia Meloni being seen back home, particularly by Italian women? Kylie Pentelow is joined by Laura Gozzi, Senior News and Foreign Affairs Journalist at the BBC.For the first time in its 900 year history, girls will be singing in the choir at St Paul’s Cathedral on Easter Sunday. We hear from some of the girl choristers, and Kylie speaks to Dr Katherine Hambridge, Associate Professor of Musicology at the University of Durham and Carris Jones, Vicar Choral and Girls' Voices Project Manager at St Paul's Cathedral about the significance of this moment.Eczema is a complex long-term condition involving the immune system, genetics, skin barrier and the environment. 1 in 5 children and 1 in 10 adults have it. With NHS waiting times for dermatology appointments varying widely depending on location - many young women have taken to social media to talk about the condition, their own skin journeys and share photographs. Kylie is joined by two of them, Chloe Tatton and Katie Mackie, who both grew up with eczema; and Dr Tess McPherson, Consultant Dermatologist from the British Association of Dermatologists and the author of Skin Conditions in Young People.In Emma Gannon's new novel Table for One, the main character Willow learns to embrace the benefits of her new-found singledom after years of being in a relationship - and that includes learning to do typical couple activities, like going out for dinner, alone. Emma joins Kylie to discuss this, alongside expert on all things self-care, psychologist Suzy Reading. Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Rebecca Myatt

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Thanks for your company. I do hope you're enjoying your day so far. Coming up, it's Good Friday and on this very significant day in the Christian calendar, we'll be hearing how for the first time in its 900 year history, girls will be singing in the St Paul's Cathedral Choir this Easter. Also how young women are sharing their experiences of living with eczema. We speak to two online

influencers about why they're choosing to document what they're going through, a condition that can be debilitating and painful. And would you go out for dinner on your own, out of choice rather than necessity? Is solo dining something you're comfortable with? We'll be talking to journalist and author Emma Gannon about this. She's exploring single life in her new book, Table for One. She says she loves nothing more than a solo date. But what about you? What are the things you like going out to do alone? We'd love to hear from you. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website and send us a WhatsApp message to your voice note. The number is 03 700 100 444. I'm very

much looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. But first, as you'll have just heard, it looks like we might see a visit from President Trump to the UK this autumn. But yesterday, he was meeting Georgia Maloney. She was the first European leader to go to Washington to meet the US President since his recent announcement of new tariffs on the EU, which has been a high-stake moment for the EU and US relations. Georgia Maloney made history becoming the first woman to become prime minister of Italy in October of 2022. Now two and a half years into her term,

she's faced one of her biggest international tests yet. So how did the meeting go? And how is Maloney being seen back home, particularly by Italian women? I'm joined by Laura Gotzi, senior news and foreign affairs journalist at the BBC. joined by Laura Gotzi, senior news and foreign affairs journalist at the BBC. Hello Laura. Hi, good morning.

So for listeners who might not be familiar with Georgia Maloney, can you tell us how she rose to become Italy's first female prime minister? Yeah, so Georgia Maloney, she's been in politics pretty much all her life. She was a young activist in Rome, usually for post-fascist parties back in the 70s and 80s. So yeah, she has been in politics pretty much her life. She was a minister in a Berlusconi government years ago, and she kind of stayed on the fringes for quite a long time and her party, Brothers of Italy, rose to prominence slowly. But then as Italy, like other countries in Europe, moved to the right, eventually her party got the most votes at the election in September 2022, mostly off the back of a kind

of fight against illegal immigration. And she formed a coalition government back then. She has been ruling as Prime Minister since and many say that actually she has given Italy a very stable sort of period of time, much more so than we had seen for a number of years. So why was this meeting then with President Trump significant for Italy and also for the EU? Well, so for Italy it showed that it's an important partner for the US and, crucially, somebody or a country that the US can do business with. It put Maloney in the spotlight, which obviously she was very useful to her and has played out quite well at home.

And for the EU, it was important to have one of its leaders go to Washington, show that channels of communication with Trump are still open despite the fraught relations over the last couple of months. And so all in all it was a much-awaited business and one that seems to have gone pretty well. Before this, what's her relationship been like with the US president? So whenever they've met, they've always given the impression of getting on very, very well. I mean, they share some pretty important points on worldview. They've always seemed very warm with one another and they've always spoken about one another very warmly. So yesterday when they did meet, it sort of looked like two old friends getting together again.

What did you make of some of the body language in that meeting? I'm thinking particularly as she arrived and came out of the car and met President Trump. Yeah, I mean, again, they seemed to get on very well. There was a lot of smiling. Then later on in the Oval Office, Trump was praising her Italian, saying it sounded beautiful whenever she spoke. You know, they just seem to really have a much better relationship, certainly, that we've seen him have with other leaders. She seemed charmed by him and he was full of praise for her. As you were saying, Maloney's worldview is closer to that of many of President Trump's main allies than that of many of her European neighbours.

So what position do you think that put her in for the meeting? And was there any sense that she was trying to use this trip to position herself as a bridge, if you like, between Europe and the US. Yes, absolutely. I mean, she certainly hasn't sided with the sort of Macron and Schultz types in recent months that have been more critical of the US and the Trump administration. She has stayed pretty neutral. You know, even on the tariffs that Trump imposed on the EU a couple of weeks ago, you know, she basically, she essentially said that she thought there were a mistake, but she didn't really go any further than that. And I think this has been really helpful in keeping those channels open with the Trump administration

and sort of staying in his good books, so to speak. She said also in the meeting she wants to make the West great again. What does that tell us? What does she mean by that? Well it means I think that she does share a worldview with President Trump and many in his administration that, you know, the West is sort of the center of the world. But not only that, that the US really has a role in giving the West that stance. And that, you know, Maloney has made it clear that she's quite happy for the EU to be, you know, sort of take the lead from the U.S. You know, she

does look to the U.S. as, you know, the most powerful sort of element of the West. And she feels that that gives it a certain mission. And so she's very happy to go to Washington and, you know, say that she, you know, that the EU will, you know, adapt to the Trump administration, that it will work with the Trump administration on tariffs and on other elements of foreign policies. So really, I mean, obviously in this context, there would be an agreement and it really looked like they were. There wasn't anything kind of announced, there wasn't a trade deal or anything secured, but seemed to be an optimistic tone.

So how do you think Sheila have come out of that meeting? Pretty well to be honest. I mean, even before the meeting, it was never expected that she would go and kind of clinch a tariff deal because obviously Trump's tariffs have now been paused for about 90 days. So there's a lot of work for negotiators to do to kind of, you know, get to an agreement between the US and the EU. So it was never expected that she would go to the US and come back with a deal. So really, there were two scenarios. Either she was going to come back with not very much at all, or she was going to come

back with a small win that she would be able to sell at home and sell back to the EU as, you know, kind of like a victory. And you know, that's basically what happened because nothing disastrous went down. You know, those Oval Office meetings that have been a bit tense for other leaders, you know, seem to go very well for her. And crucially, she managed to get Trump to say that he would come to Rome to have a meeting with her and other EU leaders And this is something that you need us have have wanted for a long time

This is not something Trump had agreed to until now And so really for her to come back and and to be able to say, you know We'll host Trump and other you leaders in Rome. That's um, that's being seen as a pretty pretty decent result Hmm. And and also there was the mention we've heard today that Donald Trump might be coming to the UK too. Yes, that's right. It sounds like he'd like to come in September and I'm sure preparations will be underway to make that happen.

Just finally then Laura, it's over two years as we were saying since Maloney became Italy's first female prime minister. I wonder how she's viewed by Italian women. It's interesting because as you said earlier, she's Italy's first female prime minister and Italian politics has always been pretty male dominated. So when she turned up on the political scene a few years ago, and then rose to prominence, you know, she was seen as kind of an exception, she does give off a sort of an air of being a self-made woman. So again, she was an activist in some sort of poorer neighborhoods in Rome for many years. And then, you know, obviously she's now prime minister. So there is this kind of, you know, self-made, you know, determined air to her that I think has been appreciated. She's also never made any, let's say, apologies for being a woman and for being feminine in

many ways. I mean, I remember there was one NATO, I think, summit in 2023 where she cut some comments to the media short because she said that she had to go home because her heels were hurting. So that I remember at the time was pretty well received because, you know, we hadn't had that on the political scene, you know, ever. But there are few women in her government still. There are, you know, there has been a big demographic crisis in Italy for a long time that she hasn't yet found the answer to. Female employment in Italy remains very low. And then there's some provisions that her government has made in recent months, which

have not necessarily gone down well with families and women. I mean, late last year, Italy made it illegal for citizens to go abroad and have a baby through surrogacy. And so there's bits, elements like that, that are not particularly encouraging for women and families. And I think that is being felt increasingly. MS. OK, yeah, we'll have to leave it there. Laura Gotzi, thank you very much. That was Laura Gotzi, the senior news and foreign affairs journalist, helping us to unpack Georgia Maloney's visit to Washington.

And now I've been asking you for your comments about things that you like going out to do alone. We were talking about solo dining. We've had lots of comments actually coming in. It looks like lots of you enjoy doing things by yourself. Lisa in Bristol says, I had a loo day from work this week so took advantage by going to a sit-down concert on my own. I'm open and sociable, so happy to chat with anyone but in the interval I was one of the few people looking around the room and not on my mobile phone. Interesting. This person here says, the only thing I like to do, this is Rosie actually, says the only thing I like to do on my own is go to an art gallery and then meet up with friends afterwards to talk about the paintings. Thank you very

much, we've got lots to read out so I'll try and get to as many of them as I can. Don't forget it's 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now today it's Good Friday for billions of Christians, it's one of the holiest days in the religious calendar. There will be church services throughout the weekend and at St Paul's Cathedral in London for the first time in its 900 year history, girls will be singing in the dead was me. Love is come again like wings that bring her free. Beautiful to hear that the St Paul's Cathedral Choir has performed at events such as Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer's wedding in 1981, the Queen's Diamond Jubilee celebrations

in 2012 and Baroness Thatcher's funeral in 2013. But this is the first time that the girls will sing in the Easter service. Well, we spoke to some of the choristers themselves, aged between 10 and 13, at their rehearsal this week about their experience of being in the choir and preparing for Easter. It's really exciting because it's the first Easter with the girls but as well as tiring it's really fun being able to sing different types of music because of the atmosphere. Well when you're operational, when you're learning, you're sitting with the choristers and learning with them, but you get like separate rehearsals. But I guess it's a bit more hardcore when you're with the other choristers. Make lots of friends and you get to have lots of relationships with people and then those

are the people you have, they're your besties for your life. My voice has really improved ever since I joined here and I feel like I can actually do so much more than I could when I first joined here. Once you get used to the schedules, once you get used to the singing, you'll absolutely adore it. It's just a lot to get used to at the beginning, but once you do, it's just so amazing. I'm just so happy I'm part of it.

That was Iona, Elizabeth, Laila and Anastasia, some of the first girls to sing in the St Paul's Choir at Easter. And earlier this week we also talked to Andrew Carwood, the musical director at St Paul's, about the significance of this moment, preparing the girls for their Easter service. I do daily rehearsals with the connoisseurs in the morning and there are services nearly all days of the week at five o'clock principally for Evensong and on Sundays we do three services. We do matins and Eucharist in the morning and Evensong in the afternoon. So it's a pretty full on schedule. Preparing for Easter is absolutely huge.

So lots of people think it's just about Easter Sunday but in fact yesterday we had Palm Sunday of course and we have services on Maundy Thursday, two services on Good Friday, Easter Vigil on Saturday night, and then three services on Sunday. So it's very full on. The great thing about Easter is it's such a joyful festival anyway, and in a sense without having had girls in the past we've been incomplete. So having them here for the first time is absolutely brilliant, and it's a key part of what we are and what we've been moving towards for a little while. So yeah, it's

a terrific good news and feel good thing for us. Getting girls to come forward for audition has actually been surprisingly easy because there's a lot of girls who are keen to do it. So we've had a large number of families coming forward, quite a lot of auditions. We have had to think about their workload whilst they're here with us and learning things for the first time, but apart from that it's been a very smooth start. Well the church hasn't always been very good at inclusivity and equality and it's been much much better in the last, let's say what, 20 years. We're a bit late to the party on

this one but then we are now setting up the largest and busiest cathedral foundation, I would say, of anywhere in the world. Well that was Andrew Carwood, the musical director at St Paul's and joining me to discuss this further is Dr Catherine Hembridge, Professor of Musicology at the University of Durham and Carys Jones who leads the Girls Voices project to get girls into the traditionally all-male choir at St Paul's Cathedral. Thank you to both of us for joining us. Thank you. Let's start Catherine with you. Is this a significant moment that, particularly at Easter, the girls are included in the choir?

Yes, this is definitely significant. As you say, St Paul's has not previously given opportunities to girls to sing in the choir, let alone at a service of such significance as Easter. Of course, it is important to say that there have been girls in cathedral choirs in the UK for around 50 years by this point. So Manchester and St Mary's Edinburgh, for example, had girls on their top line Manchester and St Mary's Edinburgh for example had girls on their top line already in the 1970s and particularly from the 1990s other cathedrals have been setting up girls choirs so with Salisbury in 1991 but I think I see this as highly significant because of St Paul's status. It's in the capital city it's where you have a lot of royal occasions these royal occasions are

televised this is a site of tourist prominence so this have a lot of royal occasions. These royal occasions are televised. This is a site of tourist prominence. So this is a version of English cathedral music that is highly exported and highly symbolic in other words. So I'd say this is significant. And Carys, let me come to you. You're, could we say, an embodiment of things changing. You were the first woman actually appointed to the adult St Paul's choir in 2017. You spoke to our programme about that, but you now lead the outreach project to find more girls for the choir called the Girls Voices Project. Can you tell us a bit about it? Sure, I mean it's been one of the great privileges of my career really to be in the right place at the right time to help bring girls into the choir. Really we've been establishing what we think is a truly equal and equitable offering so that girls can benefit

from these extraordinary transformational experiences as choristers and that's involved all sorts of things from looking at providing new boarding space in the school to recruiting new choristers and indeed new staff to support them and one of the things I'm really excited about is our recent appointment of the first female assistant director of music so the girls will not only just have me as a role model in terms of a female role model but also someone in the conducting organist setup as well which is really special. I was interested to hear what the musical director who we heard from earlier, Andrew Carwood, said that it was actually very easy to find the applicants. There are lots of girls who want to join.

That's definitely true. There's a sort of an understandable, I think, pent-up desire to put yourself in the position of being able to take up these amazing opportunities. And there are a lot of phenomenal young singers out there and we're very lucky that lots of them are coming forward to join the choir. Catherine, why has it only been men in the past? Ah, well, I think it's important to say that the exclusion of girls and women from cathedral music was not actually originally a musical ideal. We often associate boys voices with a particular sound of cathedral music but it has much more to do with religious and cultural attitudes to women and we can see this actually I have a wonderful quote from the composer Samuel Sebastian

Wesley who complained in 1849 that he had to write for boys' voices as a poor substitute for the vastly superior quality and power of those of women. I like that one. So yes, this has to do with the fact that the Church historically has rejected women as a source of moral and intellectual authority and those leading music in the church were seen as having a liturgical role. So women were excluded for the same reasons that women were excluded from the priesthood. And you can of course find some biblical substantiation for the exclusion of women for the priesthood if you want to, though it's not consistent. But you can also find biblical evidence of women leading

worship, so we have the figure of Miriam in the Old Testament. And so the fact that that hasn't been used historically to justify women's participation points us to the fact that the exclusion is also to do with a broader patriarchal discomfort with women's bodies in public space, which is not exclusive to the church. There's a concern about the way that women are merely erotic objects, that they might offer a distraction, you know, a distraction towards worldly pleasures in the context of the Church, and the desire to keep the Church free of such things has definitely also been part of this exclusion. Of course, not only is that demeaning to women and to

men, to assume that men would not be able to listen to women speak or sing without getting distracted by their erotic potential, it's also highly heteronormative in that same-sex attraction has been a constant of all male church communities. So you can see how this relates both to broader cultural attitudes as well as some specifically religious attitudes, but it was not originally a musical ideal as I say. That came much much later when you start getting the raising of standards in cathedral music at the end of the 19th century and a formalisation of what the cathedral sound was to do with an ideal of purity, etc. And then also a tradition of recording that created a sound

that we associate with cathedral music. But that sound doesn't have to be produced by boys. I think that's also important to say. It's much more to do with a tradition of training. It has to do with pronunciation and timbre rather than whether it's boys or girls producing that sound. So you were saying this isn't new as in bringing girls into the choirs, but I wonder how it has been received in more recent years.

Yeah, I mean it's been highly controversial. You'd be surprised how much controversy can be generated by church music. People think of the church as a site of stability, but these changes, you know, were highly debated. Particularly since the 1990s, once you start getting girls choirs introduced. And I'd say this backlash, interestingly the backlash hasn't largely been along those historically religious lines about the need for women to be silent in church, you know, which is evoked in the context of women's leadership as priests. It's more to do with arguments about preservation of a tradition, which if you actually look into the instability of the tradition, sits on slightly dicey ground, I would say. But also one of the things I find interesting is that the defense of boys choirs and the exclusion of girls from

these choirs as the preservation of tradition puts a lot of emphasis on gender being the defining element of the tradition, rather than the act of daily worship or the repertoire or the sound or the training, etc. And so that's one of them, you know, the desire just to keep everything the same, regardless of the injustice of excluding women. It's interesting, Charis, I wonder what your perspective of this is, that there has been some people who simply don't want girls to be in the choir. Well, obviously I have my own direct experience of that as the first woman in the choir. But

actually one of the things I've been delighted to find in my seven, eight years in the choir now is how supportive everyone is and actually that negative element is now very much in the minority. Can I ask what your direct experience was? Well when I was appointed there were people who having never heard me sing felt that I should not have got my job which is an extraordinary thing. It doesn't feel like a very 21st century thing to encounter as a woman but one of the things that I'm really excited about with these developments is we are taking all the elements that are fabulous about this 900-year tradition, but they are allied to a much more kind of modern sense of thinking, particularly in terms of the

chorister's education. You know, so they are getting what is an amazingly caring modern education, but at the same time able to kind of benefit from all the great things about being part of a tradition that's centuries old. And Carys, this, you know, this is a very significant weekend. There must be some excitement for you, the first time in 900 years that the girls are going to be singing alongside the boys. It's so exciting. It's tough for me, you know, I'm a professional singer. I have a professional duty to lead worship at St Paul's Cathedral. But I do have odd moments where I am tearful, quite frankly, about how wonderful it is to see these amazing young people in the building. And I think of all those generations of young women who couldn't do that and I'm just delighted.

I bet. And Catherine, just finally, it is an important time, particularly for music, isn't it, in the church? Yes. I mean, I think to see St Paul's investing in the expansion of musical opportunities is very encouraging. And also, you know, a lot of chorister opportunities are linked to private school fees, which can limit access, but one of the things that St Paul's and the Stands has been doing is creating a very generous bursary system to enable those, you know, whose parents can't afford to pay the private school fees that go along with it, to participate in this tradition. So yeah, it's very encouraging to see that. Okay, Catherine and Carys, thank you so much. That's Dr Catherine Hembridge, Professor of

Musicology at the University of Durham, Durham and Carys Jones, who leads the Girls' Voices project at St Paul's Cathedral. Now lots of you have been getting in touch, we've been asking about what you like to do, the things you like to go out and do alone. Linda says I definitely prefer to go to the ballet on my own. My husband has tagged along on one occasion but we decided on balance it was best to meet up afterwards for drinks dinner. He'd been listening to some live music at the same time so we both had lots to talk about. A friend once came with me to the ballet but I had to nudge her a couple of times as she nodded off. It was a new Cuban ballet she

said. Claire here says I love doing things on my own as well as with friends. I went to Crete on my own for a week. The restaurant staff soon got used to my table for one and chatted with me. The irony was all the couples sat in the restaurant, all the couples who were sat in the restaurant, were on their phones not talking. Very interesting. Do keep your comments coming in on 84844. And this weekend, as we've been saying, it's the bank holiday. I wonder if you're taking a bit of time to do a spring clean and a sort out. I certainly am motivated to do so. On Easter Monday, we have a programme all about decluttering.

Anula is joined by the TV presenter, writer and homes therapist, Michelle O'Gunderhin, who's taken a break from judging BBC One's interior design masters to talk about the connection between our homes and our wellbeing, her own decluttering journey and her love of curated objects. Visual clutter is more exhausting than we realise. It's not just stuff. Our brains are constantly processing our surroundings so they have to work over time if they're surrounded by chaos. So if you feel drained or exhausted at home it could be your clutter. I mean, we know that homily clear space, clear mind. But everyone must have a different level of clutter that is distracting.

Right. Like one man's clutter is our one woman's. We're on women's. Our one woman's clutter is another woman's treasures. Well, I love that you say that because this is not a call for minimalism. When I talk about clutter clearing, it is not about getting rid of the things you love. It is not about leaving yourself with sort of, you know, one perfect pot just so on a kind of linen tableau. I mean, I love my things. I have lots of things. I think our things are like the talismans of your life. They tell your story. But the key is to surround yourself with the things that actually tell the story that you want it to tell.

That's decluttering. 10am on Easter Monday. The psychology of our stuff and the impact that clutter can have on our lives. Plus there'll be plenty of advice for conquering your own too. Now one in five children and one in ten adults have it. Eczema is a complex long-term condition involving the immune system, genetics, skin barrier and the environment. Now with NHS waiting times for dermatology appointments varying widely depending on your location some people report having to wait up to a year to get an appointment. Now many young women have taken to social media to talk about the condition and their

own skin journeys and share photographs. It's become somewhat of a community supporting each other going through often painful times. I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by two of those women, Chloe Tatton and Katie Mackie, both in their 20s, both grew up with eczema and also Dr Tess MacPherson, consultant dermatologist from the British Association of Dermatologists and the author of Skin Conditions in Young People, a Practical Guide on how to be comfortable with your skin. Thank you so much to all of you for your company. Katie, can I start with you? Why did you decide initially that you wanted to document your own experience of living with eczema?

So for me I'd always had eczema since birth and it hadn't ever been anything I'd talk about because I had just had it since birth so you kind of got on with it but later around 20 I ended up getting alopecia areata so I ended up going for another visual difference and I was going through hair loss and on the back of that I had just a really big period of like anxiety and just really noticing the mental impact of that kind of visual difference and I ended up going to therapy and from going to that first session I ended up talking about my eczema and I just kind of weird period of like learning about like how it actually was affecting me because I'd always just pushed it to one side and

got on with it and I knew it was affecting me and stop me from doing things but I hadn't necessarily kind of targeted to combat that and off off the back of that, I kind of went through a whole period of learning and unlearning. And I got a little bit angry at myself because I was like, why are you hiding this? It's a medical condition. And I started to learn more and more about my condition because I was going on my own rather than with my parents to the doctors at that point, because I was around like 21. And throughout like the next three year period, I just started being, ah, and then COVID happened. And I saw a lot of people, um, influences were actually starting to share the realities of what was going on in their lives. And you weren't kind

of seeing that glossy glam side of social media. You're starting to see people being real. And I just started to get really inspired by seeing other people talking about like acne. And then I was like, Oh, well, if they're talking about acne, why am I not talking about my eczema? And for me, I started on a private account. And then again, I realized I was still hiding, really. And I went through another period of being like acceptance, I kind of call it. And then I came on to what my personal account was, and I changed it to call it Mackie's Moments. And I was like, I'm just going to share all my life moments. And I was really scared to put that first post out there. But after doing it and thinking about all these negative things in my head that people were going

to hate on me and stuff, I just got so much love and I had so many people coming out of the woodwork being like, oh, I've got it too. And then when you have that kind of conversation about eczema with someone who has it too, it feels a lot lighter. And I just had this beautiful experience of like opening up and talking and sharing. And just from the way it made me feel, I just wanted to keep making others feel the same way so I just kept posting more and more and more as I went on my journey and yeah and now I'm here today and yeah just I really I now have got to a place where I'm happy in my skin and even when I'm flaring I'll go out the house whereas before when I was younger I would have just hid away and wore the long sleeves but yeah

it's been a really beautiful process for me. That's so good to hear. Chloe I wonder what it's been like for you sharing online. Has it made you see yourself any differently? Absolutely. I think it's been life changing, to be quite honest with you, is how I would describe it. I started posting my skin journey online because I was researching it myself. So I knew if I was researching it, then surely other people have got to be researching it as well. And I just went for it and posted my journey, similar to Katie, on social media. And actually, it's because of this journey that I've been on

and sharing it online, it's such a liberating feeling. When you try and hide from something that you've had for so long and you cover it up, it's so liberating to then put it out to the world and show everyone this is who I am, this is what my skin looks like and I take a look, you know, it's a lot of solace from that, you know, and actually it's about being in the representation and the visibility that I so desperately needed when I was growing up with eczema and showing people that they're not alone. And it's helped me in more ways mentally than physically to be honest, obviously.

So it's more of taking, I guess, that back and saying, no, you know what, I have eczema and this is my skin journey and I'm proud of that and I'm not afraid to share that with the world. It takes a lot of bravery though doesn't it because a lot of what we see on Instagram is this kind of filtered image particularly of you know young women but for me looking at both of your Instagram accounts I instantly got so much more understanding of what your daily lives might be like.

For example, I didn't realize that you could very quickly have a flare-up, Katie, and then it goes away. So, you are sharing these very close-up images. What kind of response have you got from people? Yeah, when I'm flaring and I'm sharing those kind of close ups, I get a lot of DMs like, oh my god, I'm so glad I found your page. You look like me and your ex is in the same places as me. Or just I think one of the biggest DMs I always think about gets me a bit emotional.

I one day got a DM and it was this girl and she said that you've inspired me to go out the house today because I work nine to five in London and I'd gone to work on a commuter day that day and I'd gone in full face flare just because I felt like I was comfortable and happy enough to do so and I just didn't really think much of it because I've got to a place where I'm really happy with myself and I'd put it on my story just you know here I am here I go and then the girl off the back of that was like you know what I saw your story this morning and it's inspired me to go to the office too. And I think it just, that kind of domino effect

you can have of others. But also just, there was a DM later that I got and this girl had said that I told my therapist about you. And I told her that there's this girl on Instagram and she's living the way I want to be. And she said that I'd inspired her to see that there was a positive future with someone with a skin condition and I think that's again like

the most beautiful thing about sharing and being raw and honest is that you can have this effect and even though you're doing it for yourself and you're also getting other people having these great chats and you have like community you have the power to also inspire others to do the same. Yeah absolutely. Dr. MacPherson let me bring you in here. What do you make of this trend, I guess you could call it, Katie and Chloe are talking about, of posting their personal experiences of what they're going through? Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's great to see Chloe and Katie and people like them showing real skin, real skin which does have eczema,

rather than idealized skin. I think that's so important and I know it helps so many patients. And I think there's several issues. I mean, one of the problems, as you mentioned, is that people are waiting too long to see people that can support them, either through their GP or dermatologists. And for some, that's a negative drive to go online, for sure. I mean, I think these, you know,

Chloe and Katie report very positive experiences, which is fantastic. I think one of the problems I see is that sometimes social media can amplify and allow certain patient voices to be heard, whereas other patient voices are maybe not heard so well. And I've certainly seen patients who have gone online and seen content which has made them worried or feel isolated or feel like they're not managing their eczema well. And I think the main thing we see, and again demonstrated by Claire and Katie, is people

suffering or living with a condition like eczema, I mean it has a huge impact and they can feel so isolated and there's so much self-blame there and great if it's helping people feel accept more acceptance but sometimes I think some of the content can actually make people feel that they're doing things wrong or that some of the treatments they're using are dangerous and that can certainly be problematic. Chloe, you've lived with eczema for a long time, haven't you? Can you just tell us a bit about what it was like when you were young? Absolutely, yeah. So I was prescribed my first steroid cream at the age of three months old to treat my eczema and used that usedcremes for 23 and a half years. Growing up with eczema was

incredibly debilitating and you know my main memories of it were sitting in the bathtub, my mum smothering me in emollient, wet-wrap bandaging me up and looking like you know a zombie in excruciating pain and it was it was tough. And I remember the comments that I would have when I was growing up at primary school and at high school. And those comments really stick with you. I had comments, you know, like, oh, what's that on your hands? Or, is that contagious?

And, you know, those comments really stick with you and really do affect you, which is why I think I wanted to post even more. As I say, it's that liberating feeling of, you know, putting it out there when you've tried to hide it for so long, but for me personally, you know, growing up with eczema and more recently on my journey with topical starobedural, it's, you know,

it's turned into actually something incredible and it's about turning that pain into purpose and helping others feel seen. And it's something that I'm incredibly proud about. And I know that I'm helping other people. And if just one person, you know, a young person and an older person can see my content and feel more empowered, feel less alone or feel hopeful about their own journeys, that it does get better, then every post is worth it, in my opinion. Dr. MacPherson, we just heard Chloe mention a topic called steroid withdrawal there.

Can you just explain what that is? So we recognise this is an increasing concern to patients. What do we know about, first what do we know about eczema? We know that eczema as demonstrated can be a lifelong, and many people is a lifelong disposition. So there's no cure for the fact you're eczema-prone. That's really important. So flares of eczema can occur through life and often for no clear trigger.

So there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time worrying about the cause of eczema. The main cause of eczema for most people is the skin and the body they're born with, which you can't change, and that shouldn't be something that you feel any fault or blame for. So recognizing that, then you have to manage eczema. And there are many treatments to manage eczema, and all treatments you have to think about, and all decisions in life you have to think about benefits and risks. And certainly for most people, for most of my patients with eczema, the benefits of topical steroids outweigh the risks, and they can manage their eczema very well.

And back to some of the social media content, I do see an increasing amount of patients now who are managing their eczema with topical steroids, but feel they must be doing something wrong because they're reading their algorithms will drive so much content about TSW that they feel that they're not using safe treatments. And the overwhelming evidence is these are safe treatments that have to be, that can be used safely to manage a chronic condition. So TSW is, as I said, an increasing concern, and we're seeing a lot of concern among patients. And it's poorly understood really in terms of what it actually is and I think the term is used quite liberally

to cover a whole number of conditions. We know that eczema can be very severe. Eczema can have huge impact, can be very severe and certainly in some patients topical steroids will not be effective to manage their eczema. That is a small minority of patients because eczema can cause huge issues and luckily we have other effective treatments but all of those have to be considered in terms of potential benefits and potential risks. There's no cure for eczema and there's no complete treatment without any side effects. Sorry, yes. I was just going to go back to Chloe, what do you make there of what Dr. MacPherson said? I absolutely agree that it is a very misunderstood condition

and we need more research into topical steroid withdrawal. I think that people turn to social media because they don't get the support from their dermatology department or their GPs when topical steroid withdrawal is mentioned or brought up in appointments that I've had and also I've received messages from people who have also experienced this. TSW is very quickly dismissed and it can be quite a really difficult conversation to have with a medical professional that, you know, quickly dismisses it and says that's just a TikTok trend or it doesn't exist. But, you know, the British Association for Dermatology,

the National Ex-Mist Society, they've, you know, the British Association for Dermatology, the National Eczema Society, they've come out and released the statements on topical steroid withdrawal that says that it does need more research, and I totally agree with that. For me, I use topical steroids, as I say, from three months old until I was 23. At the age of 21, I noticed that my eczema was becoming more widespread,

and the steroid creams were becoming a lot less effective at treating that. And it was clear that the steroid creams weren't working anymore. I mean, absolutely. So yes, sorry, Claire, we should not dismiss it. Sorry, continue. But yeah, absolutely. I think we all need to work together to work out what it is, what it is and how to support all patients with eczema and absolutely more research and more patients like you who are helping with this. Yeah and we should say that if anyone has been affected who's listening to this there are links on the Women's Hour

website if you want to get any support. Katie I just want to finish finally with you. What do you say to those people who have eczema and feel isolated in their condition? I would say that it does and will get better with time and the more you learn about your condition, the more you'll know how to treat it and you'll like the more you'll know how to advocate for yourself in a doctor's office because the more I've learned the more I've known what to ask and what I need and yeah with time everything does get better and there is a massive community of people out there and you're not alone and there there is a massive community of people out there and you're not alone and there are like you said some great resources out there as well that can

really help you get into that more positive headspace. I'm an advocate for changing faces and they also have like a free one-to-one service and yeah if you really feel like it's affecting you every day and it's something that you're always is on your mind that's like your internals screen for help and listen to that and there is places that you can get support. Katie, Chloe and Dr Tess MacPherson thank you so much for your time here on Women's Hour and as I said any of the there are links to help websites for some of the issues that we have raised on our website. Now we've been asking for your views about dining alone.

How do you feel about it? How do you feel about going out for dinner alone? Do you do it? Would it only be out of necessity or enjoyment? Well, my next guest is someone who does just that and she enjoys it so much that the title of her new novel is Table for One. In Emma Gannon's new book, the main character Willow learns to embrace the benefits of her new found singledom after years of being in a relationship, which includes, of course, having to do those typical couple activities alone. Well, Emma joins me now to discuss this alongside expert on all things self-care, psychologist Susie Redding.

Thank you so much to both of you for joining me this bank holiday Friday. Thank you for having me. Emma, let's start with you. Why did you want to write then about the journey that is singledom rather than, you know, the typical kind of love story, I guess? Yeah, I mean, I never plan my novels. I always am surprised when I finish my first draft, but this is definitely a love letter to solitude and celebrating women especially spending time alone and carving out that time for themselves and yeah it's you know I'm in a relationship but I dine out all the time by myself and it's you know some of my favorite memories are just me with a good view and a good

meal and yeah the character is sort of on that journey as well. Susie, it's quite interesting topic to explore in this way isn't it? What do you think that are some of the benefits to being single? Oh there's a glorious opportunity to connect with self, to explore your hopes, your dreams, your preferences, your passions, freedom to travel, freedom to learn, lots of benefits. Do you think it could potentially be harder for women to fill the space where a partner used to be, I guess potentially putting ourselves first? Yes. Yeah, I mean, historically when you look at the kind of language that was used,

single men are bachelors, whereas single women, spinsters, old maid, you know, left on the shelf. So yeah, we definitely need to change that narrative, don't we? Emma, you're not single, but like you were saying, you enjoy that solo dining. Do you still do that then, even though you have a partner? Yeah, I've done it my whole life. I mean, I've been with my partner for 13 years and I spent a month by myself in New York last year where I ate out a lot on my own and really enjoyed just being alone with a book.

You know, I'm a writer, I love that introspection, I suppose, and also making memories just through my own eyes on my own terms. And I really believe that solo dining and being alone, you can calm your nervous system. You can problem solve you can you know have feelings of real joy and I'm not saying that I don't want to connect with other people of course, I love going out for dinner with friends and my husband but um

You know, it's just one of my favorite activities and I kind of love that the novel is bringing up this this conversation I suppose it's it's bringing up lots of conversations actually, because we've been asking our listeners for their views. I just want to read this one from Frances. Frances says, as a woman of 67, who's been single most throughout her life, I have no qualms about eating out alone. However, I have on occasion had to change the place

offered to me and point out to a maitre d' that it's quite insulting to a woman to put them in a corner or worst of all, facing a wall. Although there may be some women who are happy to dine facing a wall, I am not one of them and shouldn't need to remind someone taking me to my seat to offer me a couple of choices. Have you found that, Emma, that you're kind of seen as, you know, they want to get you through and eat quickly and off you go? Yeah, definitely. And I really wanted to make this more of a public statement to allow women and anyone to dine and really enjoy it and kind of feel like you're on a bit of a date

with yourself and you're having three courses and you're at a good table. And yeah, there was a New York Times article called Why is dining solo so difficult? And it was about that how some restaurants kind of want you to hurry up and they know they're not making as much money off you potentially, putting you on a bar stool and you know if you've got a bad back you don't want to be on a bar stool. So I think it's about making it definitely more normal and not just like a quick business trip dinner, it's like an activity that's fun. What about the looks that you get or do you get looks from other people? Well in my 20s I definitely felt

more insecure and self-conscious and I would bring a Kindle and a phone and a notebook and a podcast and I would it was really difficult and I felt like everyone was looking at me which they really weren't no no one really cares what anyone else was doing but I think as I get into my you know mid-30s I feel like it's an empowered move it's I don't really mind what anyone thinks. And I think that's a symbol of how I feel about myself. And the character in Table for One, she's learning to love herself more, I suppose. And that's shown in the scenes through her being at a table

and changing how she feels about herself. Susie, have you got any advice to people out there who want to give solo dining a try but might feel a bit apprehensive? I do. You know, you can start really small. It doesn't have to be going out for dinner. It could be going out for lunch. It could be even going out for coffee. And as Emma has just said, you know, get prepared. Think about what you might like to do while you're there. It could be, you know, taking a notebook, doing a little bit of planning. I like to do that. I love. It could be taking a notebook, doing a little bit of planning.

I like to do that. I love that notion of taking yourself on a date, romance yourself. So having a little notebook to do some planning. Think about how you want to use your time. And it can be such a beautiful meditative experience. This is an opportunity to develop our savouring muscles where you're really noticing the pleasure of what you're eating, the ambiance, what's happening around you. So kind of being in the moment, I guess, rather than the distraction. I just want to read out another couple of comments.

Carol says, I've been going to the theater and concerts alone for many years. I like to sit on the front row, and I read a book in the interval. I also eat out alone with a book. I prefer it. I'm nearly 64, and for my birthday in two weeks, we'll be seeing a plane alone. Sue says, when I boarded a ship for 12 days travelling across

the coast of Norway, I booked myself a solo table for the duration. The food on board was reputed to be amazing and I wanted to savour it. There we go. I'm very sociable and perfectly good at small talk, but that's to the detriment of enjoying my food. I end up with an empty plate and no real sense of the event. I live alone so I eat alone at home so it's not about a break from family. It's all about concentrating on the delights of splendid food. It's really interesting. Why is it Emma, why is it that dinner seems to be harder to do on your own than lunch or a coffee? I don't know. This has been brought up and I never felt that way. I feel like people have also said that breakfast can be really awkward by yourself for some reason. I don't really know why. But maybe it's something to do with it being maybe more of a taboo because, you know,

evenings are supposed to be a social or a romantic occasion with someone else or, you know, it's like by candlelight, you're kind of alone. But I think that is so lovely to do. And if anyone listening is kind of feeling like, oh, I could never do that. I really challenge you just just to kind of maybe give it a go just for fun, because I think you might be surprised how you feel and how I don't know just yeah, more connected to yourself you feel and also remembering also what you like, just yeah, more connected to yourself you feel. And also remembering also what you like. You know, there's so many moments in life where I've ordered what someone else has ordered off the menu just because I feel confused and under pressure.

And to really look at a menu and think, what do I want today? What do I want to eat? What do I want to enjoy? What do I want to think about? I think it's just taking up space. And I think, you know, there's that sort of joke that like people would dress up for Halloween as a woman who's single without children on their own, because people are so scared of that type of woman in society. But I think it's quite powerful and beautiful. What does your husband think about you going off alone? Does he ever get annoyed? No, not at all. I think our relationship has always been sort of on those terms.

Like he is a photographer and a writer and he, when we first met, would go away for weeks at a time by himself to take photos. So I definitely, you know, I'm questioning in my novel as well, what a modern day relationship looks like. I don't think it means necessarily being joined at the hip. And I don't think marriage in the old traditional sense needs to be, you know, yeah, doing everything together all the time. So I really love opening up this conversation because I think people are starting, we're starting to talk about the nuances. You know, there's a middle ground between being single and in a relationship.

You can be free. Is it important, Susie, to have that kind of space for yourself even if you're in a relationship? Absolutely. We need that opportunity to connect with ourselves so that we can know ourselves and better represent ourselves, advocate for ourselves. Do you think that kind of that it's different in different parts of your life? For instance, if you are going out and doing things when you're single and you're in your 20s, is that very different experience than when you're in your 50s, 60s? It can be. I mean, there are different seasons of our lives. We enjoy doing different things and it's just a matter of honouring where we're

out and what do we need and that can take lots of different shapes. It doesn't always have to be going out for a meal. It could be going for a solo walk. It could be carving space to sit at home and and have some time to think and connect I mean, do you think that the whole narrative around kind of singledom needs to change particularly, you know from the point of view of women I Don't know. I mean, it's it's an interesting one with this conversation because I've written a fictional story and I'm not single It's been lovely to hear the response from early readers who are single and they feel really represented in the novel because they're single characters and there's people who are newly single and people that have been single for a long time

and I've based some characters on friends who are single. And I think it's just about giving everyone space to grow and not to question people all the time and assume they even want to be in a relationship. You know, when people are cornered at weddings going, oh, I'll set you up with someone and they haven't even asked, like they're just enjoying their single life. And I think this idea of being single by choice really needs to be celebrated. And also, I think it goes hand in hand sometimes with the conversation about being child free by choice, which I am, and just this assumption that you want what everyone else has. I think sometimes we're really happy with our choices

and it's just letting that have some breathing room, I think. What do you think about that, Susie? I think it's so important that we have this conversation about that there are many different shapes that a purposeful, rewarding, meaningful life takes. We get to choose what it is. Yeah, and I guess there's a real difference between kind of solitude and wanting that solitude and then isolation isn't there and when particularly, you know, if you're thinking about friends to kind of, you know, intervene and help and realise that they are actually wanting company or not wanting company.

Lots of different shapes that connection takes as well, doesn't it? Sometimes it's in person, sometimes it's sending a little voice note. It's being creative in how we come together. What do you think about that Emma, that difference between isolation and solitude? Yeah I think it's really important because I really wouldn't want this topic to be taken as a sort of like, oh I should figure everything out by myself and isolate myself and be totally self-sufficient. I don't think that's the case at all.

I think the beauty of chosen solitude is because you feel connected in other areas of your life, because you've got some good friendships on the go, because you've got maybe a family member that you can text or WhatsApp call while you're away for a week or a night or whatever it is. And I think it is about feeling like you're in control and going, I get to be alone, not like I'm forced into being alone. So yeah, I think it's all about communication and when you feel lonely, which I think is totally different, you know, those moments when I felt really lonely is

really crippling and scary and I think those are the moments you do reach out and you do text a friend and say are you free for an impromptu coffee or whatever. Okay we'll have to leave it there. Psychologist Suzy Redding and author Emma Gannon, thanks so much. And Emma's book Table for One is out on the 24th of April. So many of you have got in touch with this. I can't read them all out unfortunately we haven't got time but let's get to a few of them. This person says I started eating out alone when I was young due to doing shift work and having days off in the week but friends

working Monday to Friday. I've continued this whether in relationships or not. This person here says Helen in the US they advertise solo dining places through websites they have communal seating areas where you meet others or can sit at the bar or at good tables. No rush, no pressure. I've done it lots of times. Now don't forget that on weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow we'll have the roundup from the week including the director of a new documentary about the groundbreaking and rule-breaking Irish author, Edna O'Brien. Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hi Greg. Hi Greg. Hi Greg. I'm Greg Foot and my BBC Radio 4 show Sliced Bread is back to investigate more of your suggested Wonder products and find out if the latest fads really deliver on their bold claims. It just seems a bit too good to be true. Once again I'll be talking to the experts and separating the science fact from the marketing fiction. They're duped into thinking that it's something that has a degree of scientific rigour when it just doesn't.

From jet lag products and home allergy tests to how a plant-based banger compares to a regular meat sausage. Some tasted like cardboard. Sliced bread with me, Greg Foot. And to make sure you hear my new batch of investigations first, go search for sliced bread on BBC Sounds.