Woman's Hour - Men and stopping sexist behaviour, Beauty Salons close in Afghanistan, Chief Midwife

Episode Date: July 26, 2023

What role should men play in stopping sexist behaviour? Several campaigns have aimed to tackle this, the most recent being the Mayor of London’s Maaate initiative. To discuss Nuala is joined by Karen Whybro who is a Woman’s Safety Consultant and Graham Goulden, the former Chief Inspector at Police Scotland, and who now offers training to organisations to improve team culture. The play, Beneatha's place, currently running at the Young Vic, shows the main character Beneatha in two different periods of her life. First, in 1959, as a young black activist. Then 50 years later, as a renowned Dean of an American university. With Nuala to talk about the play is Cherrelle Skeete who plays Beneatha and Nicola Rollock, Professor of Social Policy and Race at King's College London who worked as a cultural consultant to the play.Earlier this month the Taliban ordered the closure of women’s beauty salons in Afghanistan. Faranak Amidi speaks to Shekiba Habib from BBC Pashto and Aaliya Farzan from BBC Dari about this latest restriction.The International Confederation of Midwives has appointed the world’s first ever Chief Midwife. Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent joins Nuala to talk about the challenges midwives face across the world, and how she hopes to combat them. The podcast The Girlfriends follows a group of women coming together to investigate their ex-boyfriend. It begins in 1989 when a man named Bob Bierenbaum moved to Las Vegas. When a group of his ex-girlfriends discover that his wife, Gail Katz, went missing and is presumed dead, they go from dating him to investigating him. Almost 30 years later, Carole Fisher, one of the women who dated Bob, joins Nuala to discuss how she finally got justice for Gail.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, a question for you this morning. What role can and should men play in calling out and stopping sexist comments and actions? You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website.

If you'd like to leave a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. So more on that in a moment. But this week, I have been an avid theatre goer and last night was at the Young Vic Theatre in London. I saw Beneath His Place, a story of a young black woman

moving between pre-independence Nigeria and the United States over five decades and encountering racism but also trying to affect social change through universities. Though the play was written 10 years ago, the issues it raises are just as resonant today, from the number of black female academics to positive discrimination and the place of critical race theory. I'll be speaking to Sherelle Skeet, who plays Benita, and Professor Nicola Rollock. I've also been listening to a podcast. It's called The Girlfriendsfriends and it's a true crime series.

We're going to be hearing from Carol Fisher, who is on the podcast and helps solve a murder by bringing girlfriends of an ex-boyfriend together. Also on Woman's Hour, we'll hear from the first ever chief midwife, Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent. Now, she has the enormous task of trying to provide a midwife for every childbearing woman in over 100 countries worldwide. We'll hear how she plans to do that.

And to Afghanistan, beauty salons are closing there this week. We're going to talk about the implications of that latest ruling by the Taliban two years on from them taking power. But let me begin by going back to my question to you. What role should men play in calling out and stopping sexist comments and actions? It's been the subject of many recent government campaigns. You might remember the Home Office Enough campaign that was last year, which sought to shift the attitudes and behaviours underpinning abuse. In recent weeks, the Welsh Government launched the Sound campaign, which aims to initiate self-reflection by drawing attention to harmful behaviour and encouraging men

to seek sound advice. And the most recent campaign is the Mayor of London's MATE campaign. That's MATE with three A's, encouraging men to call each other out. Let's listen to a clip. This sees a group of men playing football on a games console. Is that a bird running the line? So what, now I've got women telling me I'm wrong about football as well? That's some crew, bro. What do they know about a game, man? Did you not watch the women's Euros? It's pretty decent. It's pretty decent. It's pretty good. Yeah, for a laugh. That stuff's a joke. Mind you, some of them players are pretty fit, though.

Mate. What the? What? Sorry, boys. Mate. Now, of course, we know men can also be victims of violence, but these campaigns all focus on men's behaviour towards women. And they have a catchy title, you might think, but do they work?

Well, this is a question I put to Karen Wybrow, a woman safety consultant and research associate at the University of Portsmouth, and Graeme Goulden, a former chief inspector with the Violence Reduction Unit, which is part of Police Scotland, and now offers training to organisations to improve team culture. I began by asking Graeme if the MATE campaign is a good one or not. It presents an opportunity for us to have a conversation, but it's oversimplified.

You know, it sounds easy to say MATE when someone says something, but I know from my work and all the research tells us that it's not as simple as that. It's difficult. It's difficult for, you know, a young man to say something, especially in a peer group. And for me, this campaign needs to go a little bit further. We need to really, really create conversations with boys and men and help them overcome these inhibitors, these fears, the social fear that stops them saying the right thing, things that they want to say. This is an interesting point, Graeme, because we heard to inform that particular campaign, the mayor commissioned a report and it found that two in three men want to intervene, but don't know what to say.

Let me throw that back to you, Karen. I mean, what do you do instead then? You're talking about it being reductive and the conversations that we're seeing in that ad perhaps simplified. But what do you do instead? Problem we have is that actually having no kind of law or rule in place around misogyny being a hate crime

or any kind of defined understanding or agreement around what is and isn't acceptable in behaviour towards women actually makes it very difficult if this type of campaign you know this is a morality piece right it's not like we can say if you do this this is going to happen to you we're kind of using this nudge science of trying to affect behavioural change but with this kind of topic that's really really difficult so people have kind of said oh you know this needs to be

the same as a drink driving campaign or something around public safety but this topic is so nuanced and it's so difficult and complex to understand that we can't just rely on a really kind of simplified way of saying oh just say that word and that's going to have those you know crucial um results but does it not at least start the conversation or perhaps have somebody at least think about something in a different way if they see the ad ironically i think the previous campaign from the mayor actually was was better was more effective and has already done that. So could you explain that just for listeners that aren't aware of it? So the Have a Word campaign that came out previously, I think last year, showed a scenario where, you know,

there's a group of lads hassling a girl at a bus stop and one of them stepped in and he took a moment. Actually, it showed it quite clearly. He took a moment to think about himself and his behaviour, looked in the mirror and thought this isn't right and stepped in there with his friends and that to me was a much more relatable much more realistic scenario that was used this kind of scenario that they've used this time is quite a gender stereotypical scenario of these lads sitting around playing computer games as well which I don't think really is sophisticated enough to lean into the male psychology of friendship. And let me turn back to you, Graeme, then.

What do you think and what have you found is effective in your work? And coming back to that M.A.I.T.E. campaign, you talk about it being also too simplified. Is it not a way in for certain people? It's always good to have an entry point with people. And, you know, I always quote their campaign in the US in the 1980s, friends don't let friends drive drunk. And that led to, you know, up to 70, 75% of American citizens. And to this day, it still does, you know, encouraging friends to take car keys off their friends. And, you know, friends don't let friends get arrested.

Friends don't let friends, you know, be victims of whatever. If we can use, harness that part of responsibility, because all the evidence tells us that the sense of responsibility is the biggest motivator. So if you're doing something for your friend, then that's a good thing and will motivate you. Right. But in this particular instance, you feel it doesn't, it's not as nuanced as it should be? For me, it's about, you know, I think that quote, that stat you gave earlier about two out of three men want to do something.

We need to focus a lot more on what men really want to do. And we actually know that men respect other men who do challenge behavior. So these are the positives that we need to get into our classrooms, get into our locker rooms, get into our, you know, male, you know, male cultures, and then start the conversation which provides men the reassurance that if I do say something, people are going to support me. Because that sense of support is another big motivator for, you know, active bystandership, for men to be leaders in this work. Yeah. You're bringing up a lot of thoughts as I'm listening to your words, Graeme. Also, like within a group situation, let's talk about where

something misogynistic may occur. Are those groups self-selecting in the sense will they be of a certain mindset? Is there space within that group, for example, for somebody to break away and be a leader in the way that you're outlining? What I find, you know, working in male cultures is that men and boys and men are grappling with things they're hearing you know think of that Andrew Tate conversation we've been having over the last few months boys individually are grappling with some of the the messages that they're hearing and because they're not really sure what their friends are thinking they wrongly perceive what their friends are thinking and that leads to them either being silent around behaviors or joining in with their behaviors and that's why

it's so important that we we don't talk at men and boys. We talk with them. We invite them into conversations. We don't indict them, as often happens. And I think using the bystander approach is a good way to do that, because we don't speak to boys and men as the problem, the potential problem. We speak to them as a friend, the classmate. With that opportunity to shift culture, one speak to them as a friend, the classmate. With that opportunity to shift culture, one person can signal this approval, but one person can also

make it okay for other people. What you promote, you promote. And that's what we need to get to. Well, let's turn to you, Karen. You know, you've done work on this for Chelmsford City Council, for example, and perhaps picking up on some of those points that Graeme is making, particularly that last one, the motivation. What has your work found? We really found that, as Graeme said there, what we really wanted to avoid was a kind of shame and blame attitude in our campaign.

We know that we're in a situation at the moment, especially when you're releasing social media campaigns online, we're really in danger of creating more division and making men and boys feel much more disenfranchised and marginalised. And that's absolutely the wrong way to go about this. So we felt really strongly that we had to come at this from a community approach. We wanted people to realise that we all have a part to play in this. We all have a role to play in how we speak to each other. So we really focused on a different, like a series of scenarios, looking at where women felt unsafe and looking

at how some of the male behaviours or female behaviours as well could be changed. So we flipped the script on that. So we showed the bad behaviour and then we flipped it and showed what actually would be the good behaviour in that. And we used active bystandership in that approach as well. But we really looked at actually, why is it wrong? What are the consequences? What are the effects on people that you have? Because if you don't show that, if you don't represent or demonstrate, actually, why should we do this?

Not just why is this wrong, but also what are the benefits and what are the successes of actually standing up for someone else or having a word with your mate if we don't do that then people aren't going to change their behavior at all how did you show it where was it um on social media so um through the council through all the businesses who have signed up to our charter and really pushing it out that way and is there a way to measure the success of that campaign? It is really difficult to measure any of these kind of social marketing campaigns when we're looking at behaviour change,

because obviously we're looking at attitudinal change in men. What we're doing is focusing on how safe women feel. So we're actually looking at the results through the eyes of women and their experiences. And part of my concern around the Mirror of London's campaign as well is that in that campaign, the most recent one, there are no female voices in there. And we know that actually, you know, women and girls

are the victims in all of this kind of, you know, the bad behaviours or bad attitudes. So why are we not seeing the implications on us and really focusing on how if we change behavior it's going to improve experiences for your female colleagues your peers your friends your girlfriends and our relatives um karen for your phd you're studying police scotland's don't be that guy campaign um and graeme i believe you worked on that campaign in 2021 and 2022. Graeme, perhaps you could describe it to our listeners and then I'll come back to Karen as well.

Yeah, that guy was a campaign that we launched in the weeks and months after the horrible murder of Sarah Everard. And what we wanted to do was to make the connection between words and language and physical acts, sexual acts of violence, that continuum of harm, because we sometimes put that in the small stuff box, the small stuff box. We focus on the big stuff. And what we really wanted to do was to really, you know, that phrase we use, sexual violence starts long before you think it does. We wanted to really make it clear what we're talking about. Then the next film that we launched was really just four ordinary men, you know, in a bar speaking about was really just four ordinary men you know in a in

a bar speaking about how they feel when they when they um you know hear their friends behaving you know in a sexist misogynistic way and then what they can do you know what can they do what can they say and why they're doing it and kind of made a good point there about i think we call it reciprocity what's in it for me what the are the benefits if I do this? The benefits are good friendships. The benefits are being loyal to yourself, being loyal to your friends. And we really wanted to give people the tools, things to say to their friends,

but give them that sense of responsibility because it's doing the right thing for your friend, but also for yourself. It's so interesting though that there has to be something in it for them, but maybe that's human nature. Karen, coming back to you, I mean, how do you feel about that campaign? So I've only looked at the first campaign, looking at reactions online to the first one, which was a kind of down the camera male, young men talking about sort of bad of bad behaviors if you want to call it that and actually found that that where we have to be careful again from what i was saying earlier

is if we do that um just talking about bad behavior it can very much um kind of create online division and that's the focus that i worry about in terms of some of the social marketing campaigns the second half of the Don't Be That Guy campaign was much more focused on actually men having conversations and then changing their behavior, which is much more proactive and much more successful. But if we just demonize and if we just talk about bad behavior, we really are in danger of they're creating sort of hate speech and new kind of ideologies, which again comes back to the fact that when we don't have a law around misogyny and

hate speech against women, especially, it's very, very difficult to measure any kind of impact or to have that kind of stick. You know, if you're thinking about either a carrot or a stick in terms of social marketing, if we don't have anything that's a benefit for them, but we also don't have any consequences, then it's really difficult to change the behaviour. I see you nodding your head there as well, Graham. Let's speak hypothetically for a moment. If there were a law against misogyny, for example, do you think we'd still need public campaigns? Karen first. Yes I think absolutely we still would need the public campaigns because we are trying to create behavioural change and let's not forget that this isn't going to happen just in the next year,

five years even you know this is a long-term project that needs to be handled carefully. Let me turn to you Graeme with that same question. Would that be something that you'd be in favour of, some sort of law against misogyny? Would public campaigns still be necessary? Yes, campaigns would still be necessary. And as a man, you know, I don't understand why there's a need for law. And I find it quite upsetting that we need a law to protect half the population from half the population. And I think it's something that is needed. And, you know, Karen's really, really laid out that case but social campaigns to to influence people is really really important that we we continue with educating you're raising awareness but using the social science you've talked about the human factor you know it's you know us human beings are quite

complicated and we need to work it how we influence behaviour. And reassurance is a big way of doing that. You know, if you feel supported in your peer group, in your community, you're more likely to, you know, to act in these types of situations. You were a former chief inspector with the Violence Reduction Unit in Glasgow. The chief constable of Police Scotland, Ian Livingston, has acknowledged the force is racist,

sexist, misogynistic and discriminatory. Did you see examples of misogynistic behaviour that you felt you ever had to interrupt and correct? You know, I do a lot of training with police officers now to really help them

create that culture where we act early. You know, in my early years, did I see behaviours? Of course I did. Did I act all the time? No, I didn't act all the time. And now with the information I've got now, the knowledge that I've got now, I understand why people don't act in these situations. And for me, it's about giving people the confidence and the tools to be able to say something early. Thanks so much to Graeme Goulden and Karen Wybrow speaking to me there. We did approach the Mayor's office for a statement. They say the campaign was developed in close

collaboration with those working on the front line to tackle violence against women and girls and support victims. And they used expert behavioural science research, they say, and as part of a wide range of action and investment by the mayor that champions a public health approach to ending violence against women and girls. Quite struck there by Graham. He says he didn't always step in. I'd be curious if you did and how did that go? What did you say? What did you do? Here's one message we received while we were listening to Graham and Karen. I'm in a WhatsApp group with some old friends. One of my university friends from over 10 years ago has moved significantly far in his political views from where we were in our university days.

He has clearly been absorbed into the manosphere online. His language is particularly misogynistic and often shows a specific disgust and ire around women and their sexual behaviours. I called him out, but it was hard. My fingers hovered over the keyboard on my phone as I thought of how and whether to call him out on it. I chose to. And since then, there has been an awkward silence and distance between us. In fact, that WhatsApp group has gone very silent. I think I did the right thing, but it was hard.

And perhaps we've fallen out. I'm a little bit saddened by it. What about that story? And I don't know whether that is a man or a woman messaging, but keep those sort of messages coming. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Another one. I can't see any point in telling men they should tell other men off for being sexist.

Nobody likes being preached to. If anyone male or female stands out against their friendship group and tells them off, they will quickly be dropped. The sexist behaviour will continue just without the awkward friend who didn't fit in. That one from Julia. Here's one from Mark. Men are primarily responsible for reducing violence against women as we are the ones who perpetrated. Teach your sons. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Let me turn to the play, Beneath This Place. It's currently running at the Young Vic in London,

and it shows the main character, Beneatha, in two different periods of her life. First, in 1959, as a young black activist leaving the prejudice of 1950s America and moving into a new house in Lagos with her Nigerian husband, an academic and prominent political spokesperson for the Nigerian independence movement, but also encounters racism there. The second act set in the present day sees Benita now in her 70s and a renowned dean of the College of Social Scientists at an Ivy League university, returning to her house in Nigeria for the first time in 50 years years accompanied by her colleagues who are debating the role

of African-American studies for future generations. What it throws up so many issues and with me to talk about the play is Sherelle Skeet who plays Benita and Nicola Rollick Professor of Social Policy and Race

at King's College London who worked as a cultural consultant to the play. So welcome to have both of you here. Thanks for coming, Sherelle, watching you last night as well. I realise it's an early start, no doubt, for something when you have to give so much every evening. And I really enjoyed it.

But I'm going to start with you, Nicola. Tell me about your role. As I mentioned, you're a professor. Why exactly were you brought in and how are you involved? So hi, morning morning Nuala and hi morning Cheryl nice to see you again so soon. So my role as cultural consultant I would say was to do three key things and first of all it was to help inform the conversation around race and racism that took place as we were working through the script.

And then secondly, and related to that, it was to draw on the research that I'd done on black female professors. Obviously, as you saw last night, Benita becomes a professor. She's an academic. So it's to draw on the research that I'd done on that subject that I think was perhaps useful for the entire team. Cheryl, you'd have to tell me here. And then specifically in terms of Benita was to give support to the development of her character, so support Cheryl behind the scenes

and the development of her character, to let her know what it felt like to be a black female scholar. And also drawing on one of the chapters in particular from my book The Racial Code in which I set out some of those experiences so that's the second point I think there's a third one and I'll say this perhaps with the level I hope of humility but I think there's something really important given the invisibility or the lack of visibility of black female professors I think it was important for me to be in the rehearsal room so the actors and also the support team the creative team

could see could actually see what a black female professor looks like. But isn't that quite something Nicola that that needs to be seen looking at the research that you carried out in the UK in 2018, it revealed that black women are the least likely to be professors compared with any other group. And of course, this is talking about an American black female professor. But talk to me about that lack,

about that scarcity. How do you understand it? Well, I think there's a number of things going on. And I should say, you know, that research you mentioned Talk to me about that lack, about that scarcity. How do you understand it? Well, I think there's a number of things going on. And I should say, you know, that research you mentioned when it took place and some five, six years later, that number, there are around 25 black female professors at the time I carried out the research. And some five years later, that number's approximately doubled. So we are seeing an increase, but I'm perhaps slightly more conservative in my enthusiasm about that increase. And the reason why is because overall there's been an increase in the number of professors. So the underrepresentation of black female professors remains.

That's the first thing. And then secondly, which is absolutely crucial, is that we're not retaining Black female scholars within the system. So it's all very well that we get a new Black female professors. I think that's absolutely important. We have seen a number of initiatives in recent years in that regard, but we're also losing them, if you will, from the other end. And that's because the sector is not taking seriously the issue of retention. And I hear that issue of retention in so many sectors, Nicola, actually on this programme as well. Shirelle, good to have you with us. What was it like having Nicola involved in the process? And tell me a little bit about what it feels like to play Benita.

I mean, some of our listeners might know this character already from A Raisin in the Sun, which was a play written by Lorraine Hansberry back in 1959. So, you know, it's a groundbreaking role in many respects. And now she lives on through you. Well, first of all, I get to play a dream role. So I feel so fortunate and very privileged to be able to play Benita, who is such a complex character. And I think having the opportunity to play her over the course of a few decades at different stages in her life, it gives such, it gives the opportunity for you to see her full humanity um to see this black woman as a young woman as a young wife you know really wanting to connect

with her identity then how she transitions into activism and then how she transitions uses that into academia and i think it's very rare that, you know, we have incredible thinkers, you know, who, you know, I listen to a lot of Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison. And we didn't really get the opportunity to see their origin story of how they why how they became the people that they are. They have left us this incredible literature, poetry, you know, incredible art. And we weren't around to see what happened. What did they go through? What were these pivotal life moments that they went through that made them the people that they are?

And with Beneath This Place, you really get to see, specifically in the first half, and obviously a a follow on from Raising in the Sun, what makes her her in all her different complexities and faculties. I think what's amazing is having had Professor Rollick in the room, it was amazing to just have someone who understands this very specific experience as being a professor, but having to navigate specifically as a black woman. It's a very specific experience. So I wanted to not only play this incredibly intelligent woman, but also to play, to understand where her vulnerability

lies, where, you know, the moments that you don't see, that you don't read about in the book or that you see on YouTube when they're giving lectures in those moments. So it was so important and just brilliant to have her there, to have you there and to be able to ask questions, very specific questions about how one behaves, you know, the etiquette of academic environments and how, you know, whenever I play a character, one of the first things that I think about is the character's hair. I played a Rose Granger Weasley in Harry Potter, and I remember even playing her as an 11 year old going to Hogwarts in fantasy. I imagined, OK, because straight away our hair is is um politicized we we we kind of are um uh there's an expectation based on how we present so I'm always really interested how this particular black woman navigates and how she presents how does she enter spaces how does how has she been able to exist

and survive and thrive doing really successfully within her field and so that even came down to that affects costume that affects even how I was going to have my hair at different points in the play um and it was great to be able to ask such specific questions to Professor Rolick right there in the space. And what each, depending on how you present in the space, what does that signify? So straight away, I'm able to delve right into the psychology of Benifa, which was, it's so amazing. It's such a gift to be able to have that. It was amazing also, just for the people who haven't seen it yet, how you age because you're meant to be there over 50 years.

Like, how did you pull that off? First of all, I was very scared. I was very scared, but most importantly, excited. I think there is something about theatre. You know, there's no CGI. There's no special effects in that respect. We literally just have the power of our imagination. So the idea is for me, if I can create the image and body that I think that this woman has developed over the years,

like I'm imagining, you know, why her knees hurt, you know, because she's been arrested, you know. I'm imagining, you know, how what her eyesight is like, because as she'd been staring at, so all of these things are stories that end up being connected to our body. And so I created a story in my mind and created the body that came from those experiences. So I worked alongside Shelley Maxwell, who's our movement director, who's incredible, who gave me some really brilliant exercises even to just differentiate. But also they're like three different people. Their core is the same. But, you know, as we age, you know, we we kind of look back and you're like, who was that? I don't I don't recognize that version of me. So it's also great to kind of know that when we go through these really big moments, how do we how do we rebuild ourselves?

How do we reinvent ourselves? Who do we become? So it was all of those questions and being able to engage in discussions with, you know, with Professor Nicola and with other castmates in building and Kwame building the backstory of of what's happened in between these gaps that we don't get to see on stage so it's a culmination of all of that it was very a very rich process. If I may what Cheryl's perhaps also not emphasized is also her skill and her passion and her energy in the way in which she worked to inhabit the role. I mean, we had a number of conversations, obviously, as a team, as a kind of as a group, as an actor. But we had a number of conversations, Shola and I, walking away from the young Vic or just afterwards or in between breaks, really wanting to feel. And I also think it's important to really signal the emotional astuteness of the writer and director Kwame Koyama in having me in the room,

but also, more importantly, in placing the Black woman centre stage. And what I mean by that is not a stage necessarily only in theatrical terms, but I mean in terms of wider British society. Yes, it's a play that isn't located here, but it's located in the States and in Nigeria. But I think it also does an incredible job of highlighting the complexities of what it means to be a black woman so the vulnerabilities the pain the compassion but also the intellectual astuteness the way that she is highly strategic and we see that play out in ways that I won't go into detail but we see that play out uh really quite uh carefully in the second act and we don't often see the black woman,

if I can use that as a phrase, in that way, certainly not in British society. I will tell our listeners again, Beneath This Place is running at the Young Vic in London until the 5th of August. Also, so many, the play, you know, it was written 10 years ago. Some of the issues so resonant,

whether it's about affirmative action or positive discrimination, as it's called play, you know, it was written 10 years ago. Some of the issues so resonant, whether it's about affirmative action or positive discrimination, as it's called here, or critical race theory, and that's placed in universities. I want to thank both of my guests. They give you a flavour of what happens in Benita's place. Cheryl Skeeth, who plays Benita, and Nicola Rollick, Professor Nicola Rollick, thank you both so much. I want to move on to

Afghanistan next actually, it's almost two years since the Taliban took power This week a ban has been enforced on beauty salons in the country, cutting off one of the few sources of income for many households and a cherished socialising place for women Farah Nakamedi presents The Fifth Floor on the BBC World Service

and she spoke to Shakiba Habib from BBC Pashto and also Alia Farzan from BBC Dari about this latest restriction in the lives of women. Farinak started by asking Alia about her memories of visiting beauty salons in Afghanistan. I think beauty salons

were the only place that women could be themselves. They could, like, take off their scarf. They could, like, do their hair. They could, like, take off their scarf. They could, like, do their hair. They could, like, in some cases... Talk about taboo subjects. Yes, definitely. Love, everything.

Definitely. I had the experience that when I went for the removing my face hair, the beauty artist would ask me, are you going to have a date? It's quite taboo in Afghanistan to talk about having dates or meeting someone or going even... And more than these things didn't exist. You couldn't speak about it openly. It was going to be normalized.

But now, by banning the salons, I think we are moving back to Shekeba's time. Exactly, yes. So what are the Taliban saying about these beauty salons? What is the reason behind closing them down? They're saying that, first of all, the prices are really, really high. The second thing is it's the makeup, the products. You can't take ablution once you are having this makeup. So the prayer that you are doing is basically incomplete.

So when it comes to these points, so no one can stand up to them and say that, look. Because they tie it to religion and religious practices and prayers. And for those who probably don't know, in Islam, a Muslim, before he or she wants to pray, they have to do a washing called wudu. All parts of your body should be completely clean of anything external. So the water can reach it. Yes, it can reach it. So nail polish, if you have nail polish, you cannot pray. If you have lipstick,

you cannot pray. So the thing is, as Alia mentioned, it's not only just having the makeup, it's just socializing. It's a way of socializing in Afghanistan. It's a safe space for women. It's just one of the few spaces because public spaces in countries like Afghanistan are male dominated. I mean, women cannot go to cafes or tea houses. They cannot just walk down the street by themselves. So these are spaces that women actually have, that they can actually go sit and, you know, be themselves, as you mentioned, be their true selves.

But also there is this cultural negativity towards beauty salons in general. It was also the same in smaller cities in Iran, and still sometimes there is this negativity that these places are not decent places and that the women who run these places are not decent women that they basically bring corruption with them and indecency with them they believe so maybe that also that's kind of sentiment that exists in the society helps the Taliban to justify these kind of closures and shutdowns. People who worked in beauty salons, they used to earn money.

And male dominated society is scared of rich women, women who have got financial stability. So I have been there for maybe more than 20 years and I have used those salons and beauty salons are a very closed and secure place for women only we were there we we haven't seen any men in the in that place and they were not allowed to visit beauty salons because that was only women place and women could access those places and in some cases I have seen those women to pray they used to have their prayer carpet in the saloon they used to pray they used to wear proper clothes they I don't know why they think that if anyone works in beauty salon they are not good people or they having but good character majority of women uses these salons but still even the

women look down absolutely absolutely i mean this is the irony that okay i want to do my makeup i want to have my hair done but that woman who works there because a lot of these women who also own these beauty salons and on there they were business women but a lot of them were divorced absolutely so single women and that. And that by itself, that is so, it's like one after another, these things are just building up to make this fictional character

of these women that was absolutely fictional. Even men might be happy to send their wife to a beauty salon to look beautiful, to do all her makeup but then at the same time

he has got a really negative opinion about that woman. because women are not seen as independent human beings they are seen as someone that is owned by a man either as your brother yeah even in the wedding they used to call grooms name yeah but for for the bride for the invitation card it's really funny because if I invite this person and the wife and the wife and the family not even wife, it's family

because even in some very conservative parts of Iran they call the wife manzel which means home and in Afghanistan it used to be ayal or kooch. It's the same as family or home. Like your belongings.

Yeah. It's belongings. Absolutely, yeah. And you can hear the full interview by searching for the Fifth Floor Podcast and that's in the BBC Sounds app. Now, I want to let you know about Listener Week, starting

on the 21st of August. Maybe you have a pressing question about your life that you'd like to put to an expert. Maybe you want to ask about technology, sustainability, your career, write a book, whatever it is, just think about what would you like to hear on Listener Week. 84844

is our text number, or at BBC Woman's Hour, or email us through our website if you would like to get your idea on. We're also on social media if you want to hear a little bit more about it. Now, I want to turn to a podcast. It explores the power women can have when they come together. It's called The Girlfriends and there's a group of women that club together to investigate their ex-boyfriend. It begins in 1989 when a man named Bob Birnbaum moved to Las Vegas. The women say that every single Jewish woman over 30 that he met thought he was the perfect man. A plastic surgeon who spoke several languages and flew his own private plane. But when a group of his ex-girlfriends discovered that his wife, Gail Katz, went missing,

possibly presumed dead, they go from dating him to investigating him. Almost 30 years later, Carol Fisher is one of the women who dated Bob, and she's hosting that podcast to tell the story of the girlfriends who finally got justice for Gail. And Carol joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, Nuala, thank you so much. It's such a privilege to be with you today. Could you tell me briefly, Carol, how Bob came into your life? Yeah, Bob came into my life, as you mentioned, you know, young Jewish women in Las Vegas back when in my late 30s, we were looking for love.

And Bob was a very eligible man. It looked great on paper, as we like to say. And my girlfriend, Mindy, suggested after she dated him a few times that maybe he wasn't right for her, but maybe he would be a good fit for me. So Bob, yeah, so that's how I met Bob. But he did also go out with other people that we meet. Talk me through how this snowballed into from dating him to investigating him. Oh my gosh, it's been an incredible journey. We, so, you know, girlfriends like to get together and, you know, debrief on relationships.

And so the first debrief was Mindy and myself shortly after Bob and I broke up and we got together and had a glass of wine and we started sharing stories. And she asked me, you know, why do you think he hasn't done anything public like, you know, run for office or, you know, the head of a medical board? And I happened to say to her, well, my gosh, Mindy, he has a lot of skeletons in his closet. And at that point, the conversation really took a turn. She had no idea that Bob had been married before, that Bob had a missing wife and had been actually accused of murder, murdering his wife. So my friend Mindy is relentless. I love her dearly. And she decided to start her own investigation.

And she, back in the day, gosh, Nuala, we didn't have the technology that we have today. So she went to the library and started digging out information. And that grew, that gained a lot of momentum and we started to invite other women into our dinner rituals and you know shared stories and shared experiences you know it kind of went from me like of something that was somewhat frivolous, somewhat, you know, the way that people get into true crime, but sometimes perhaps not realizing that there's a real person in the middle of it. And I almost was feeling that trajectory with you and your friends as well, that then, hang on a second, there's Gail Katz in the middle of this. And do you want to tell our listeners what you discovered? Yeah, well, what we discovered is that, you know, Gil Katz,

what we eventually discovered is Bob was found guilty of murdering his wife with no body, by the way, found that, you know, that what we learned is that we all shared a story where Bob had a bad temper. Bob wasn't consistent. Bob was controlling, very consistent with men who are abusers. So as this transformed and we began to realize this, this wasn't just a frivolous situation anymore. This was a serious situation. by listening to it, is that so many of his failings were overlooked because a woman, maybe Mindy or others, wanted to have the security of a partner and that there was kind of these family expectations put upon them to partner up. And this idea of a Jewish doctor, for example, as you say, was considered a suitable partner, even though there were these red flags that were flapping quite wildly around him. And that really has become one of the purposes of this podcast. I think Anna Sinfield's brilliant.

She's the producer. She's done a terrific job of really making sure that we shed light on this situation. So often we're tempted to accept people for who we want them to be and not who they are. And this is a great example. So many of us did that, me included. He confessed to her murder in 2020. I'm wondering how you felt about that because he maintained his innocence for 20 years before that. Can you imagine? 20 years he maintained his innocence. You know, I had told myself a very interesting story that, OK, he murdered her, but I'm sure it was an accident.

I'm sure it was just an argument that went wrong. And doing this podcast, I was able to read the transcripts, and you'll hear that in one of the episodes where we share those. He finally admitted it, and it was no accident. And in actuality, this man has absolutely no remorse for what he did. You know, he's talking about how he was burdened. So it's just a horrible, horrible real life example of domestic violence. And yeah, it's been a real eye opener for me. And I will tell our listeners that you've partnered with No More, a domestic and sexual violence prevention charity. But you do say this story is really about female solidarity and unity. Why? This is a story about women banding together.

We have become a sisterhood, women from near and far that have come together to bring justice for Gail and to shed light on a situation, situations that happen every day. I am horrified to learn that one in three women, and I learned this through No More, by the way, you know, one in three women experience domestic violence. So this is a call to action. This is an important story. This is an important time to make sure that we normalize the conversation and that we're there for one another. our sisterhood has really expanded into so many women that are coming forward to share their stories and reach out for hope and help. Did it ever since then make you question your judgment about people? Oh my goodness. Yeah, we could spend probably an entire hour talking about that.

Yeah, I've had a lot of personal growth over the time that I've done this podcast. And I am a true believer that when people show you who they are, you must believe them. And it is so easy and tempting to overlook and make excuses for. So it's been a very strong eye opener for me, a great learning journey. And now I feel this just overwhelming responsibility to be Gail's voice. And I am so grateful that I am alive because I could have been Gail. Carol Fisher, thank you so much. You can listen to The Girlfriend's podcast. Also, if you've been impacted by anything you've heard, you can find links on our website and you'll find here at the podcast, wherever you go regularly to get those podcasts.

Now, I want to move on to midwives next. Thanks so much for all your messages that are coming in. Actually, I should say 84844. I'm asking, you know, what should what role should men have in calling out sexist, misogynistic behavior? Here's one from Eki. If a man hasn't got the guts to call out misogynistic behaviour to his mates, how much of a man is he? What else is he willing to do or accept that he knows to be unacceptable?

I'll keep coming back to some of those messages. At BBC Woman's Hour is another way to get in touch. But let me turn to the International Confederation of Midwives, or ICM as it's known. It's appointed a brand new role, a world leading representative of midwives known as Chief Midwife. And the ICM is a body that supports and represents midwives all around the world. They have member associations across over 100 countries. So that's representing more than 1 million midwives globally. And they're working towards one big goal. And that is for every childbearing woman to have access to a midwife to care for her and also for her baby. Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent started her nursing career in Nottingham, went on to become the first chief midwifery officer for England.

And now she is the first ever chief midwife. She joins me today from her home in The Hague in the Netherlands. Welcome, Professor, and congratulations. Good morning and thank you so much for having me. This is such a huge job and we'll talk about how you intend to achieve the goal that has been set out. But why did you want to become a midwife to begin with? I'm afraid I can't say that I had an epiphany. I had a particular desire or want. I just wanted to be a part of what for most is a miraculous journey, a happy journey for most, a new life, new beginnings and advocating for women and their families. So that's the space that I really sat in when thinking about becoming a midwife.

But then you very much moved from there up through the ranks. You were appointed, as I mentioned, Chief Midwifery Officer for England in 2019. I mean, what was the biggest challenge with that role? Well, I think the biggest challenge was establishing the role because it was the first of its kind. Also, the absence of well-educated midwives, one can't deliver on that personalised and safe maternity care. But there were many challenges. And I feel as though I made strides toward achieving many of the ambitions for England. Because as you talk about safety, of course, there's been so many issues that we've seen at various trusts when it comes to the safety of women as they deliver their babies and also for the babies that are involved. And that is within a wealthy, developed country.

You are trying to now, in fact, enact globally a safe procedure for women and their children. How do you intend to do that? Well, we know that there are many global partnerships and in-country efforts. So first of all, well done to them for improving and driving down maternal and neonatal mortality. However, it isn't fast enough and it isn't great enough. We need to dig deeper simply because the maternal mortality rate currently globally is unacceptable. We know that there are 810 maternal deaths every single day. These are global estimations. That's one stillbirth every 16 seconds and 2.4 million newborn deaths each year. And the majority of these are taking place in low-income, middle-income countries. And so, what are we going to do from an ICM perspective?

The ICM very much works through midwifery associations across, as you mentioned, 119 countries through 139 midwifery associations. So we're represented in all those places. And what we are going to do and what I'm going to particularly lead on, going to lead on with colleagues, is really strengthening the presence and the competence, the education of a midwife, really looking at the return on investment. If you have a midwife, you improve maternity outcomes, you improve maternity experiences, and you save lives. And that's within the context of a well-developed infrastructure, a well-developed health system that really values the role of the midwife so that they are educated to the ICM standards. And then as an infrastructure, an appropriate health infrastructure where there are obstetricians, neonatologists, because we work as a collective team. So within that structure, we will then have our way

and move forward toward reducing maternal and perinatal mortality. This year, according to the latest Nursing and Midwifery Council report, there were 21,511 more international nurses than last year. So we know that midwives and nurses are coming from outside the EU and the UK. And a lot of times that has been pointed at, that those home countries suffer in that way. I mean, is that something you're thinking about? Or is there any initiatives? Because retention is the issue that comes up again and again when it comes to health care staff, whether it's in this country or in others. I mean, what are your plans to try and tackle that specifically?

You know, you've shared UK data, England's data. There's a global shortage of midwives, some 900,000 midwives short globally. And we know that even though they can avert roughly two-thirds of maternal and newborn deaths, we still have this challenge of shortage. And what we really should be focused on is the WHO code for one in relation to growing domestic supply and really working on how we can not only grow our domestic supply in a well-educated framework in accordance with the ICM standards, but also to retain. I have an ambition generally, I mean, it's a basic ambition for midwives to feel and be valued, respected and invested in. And if we can achieve that, then midwives might want to stay in the profession. And when I say invested in and valued, that's to do with pay, that's to do with continuing professional development,

all related to the ICM professional framework. But that sounds like such a challenge, even coming back to my point before, in a wealthy country, like we see what has happened in, for example, England, if we take that particular region, people feel undervalued. They feel like they're not paid enough. And I'm just wondering,

how do you manage that both here, but also in other countries that have far less developed systems and far less money going into that system? The ICM very much works through the midwifery associations across those countries. So 130, 940 midwifery associations.

And within that, there are many initiatives to strengthen, to sharpen the focus on return on investment. If you have a midwife, you improve outcomes, you save lives. So a real investment in educating, in ensuring that there are budgets available so that you can grow midwives and sustain them. You know, in many countries, they may well train midwives, but then do they have jobs? And then are they valued to stay in their roles? So through the midwifery associations, embracing the ICM professional framework, which if all countries embraced, we would be well on our way to having quality maternity care for everybody. And I have a general ambition globally that every woman, every baby and gender diverse person, regardless of their colour, ethnicity, regardless of their socioeconomic

status, however they talk, whichever accent they talk in, they will have the same maternity experiences as those who have the best. And collectively, we can do that. Not just mine, but collectively. We'll have to check back in with you, Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent. Thank you so much. The first ever chief midwife globally. I want to go back to some of your messages. Hi, I'm a female victim of domestic violence from a man. This idea of good men calling out abusive men is so critically important. Why? Because the abusive

men will never listen to a woman saying it because they lack respect for women. I'm so glad that you are covering this issue. Another, my daughter used to work as a child mender. A boy hit his sister and was put on the naughty step. He wouldn't apologise when the mother's partner

later came around to pick him up. He said he didn't need to apologise because he was a boy. Parental attitudes and training are very important. Tomorrow we've Jade Clark, netballing royalty. I do hope you'll join in for that.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. You know the problem with technology, right? We've made it too complicated. in for that. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. from BBC Radio 4 with me, Spencer Kelly. I've got together some great guests to help me explain everything from getting online to avoiding the artificial intelligence apocalypse. So, I'll see you there. Subscribe to Understand on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.