Woman's Hour - Men and Violence

Episode Date: March 18, 2021

Today we have three men on Woman's Hour talking about male violence. They're discussing why some men attack women and what can be done to stop it. We know that statistically more men than women are likely to be victims of male violence, but we also know that most women have felt frightened when walking alone on the streets, and most change what they do to keep safe. Sarah Everard's death has provoked a national conversation about women's safety, so today we're getting a male point of view. We have Conroy Harris from A Band of Brothers, an organisation which works with young men who have been violent in the past; David Challen who's a domestic violence campaigner and whose mother Sally went to prison for the murder of his father Richard, and Mike Berry who's a Consultant Clinical Forensic Psychologist.Gloria Hunniford joins us too. She's telling us about why she's doing something she never thought she would, and even dissuaded her children from doing when they were young: that's getting a tattoo.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. All week here at Woman's Hour, we have been trying to understand what, if anything, after Sarah Everard's murder, the 33-year-old woman who went missing when walking home, needs to change to ensure women are free. Free to walk, run, simply be on our streets day or night. On Monday we spoke to women who attended the weekend vigil for Sarah Everard on Clapham Common which turned ugly after clashes with the police. On Tuesday we spoke to a government

minister about changes afoot including more CCTV and street lighting and a professor of urban design about town planning with women in mind. On Wednesday, we spoke to two police chief constables, one former and one present, about the culture in the police when it comes to women. After the Met Police, the force handling Sarah Everard's killing has referred itself seven times to the police watchdog over incidents surrounding its officers' conduct. Strikingly, Susanna Fish on yesterday's programme, the former chief constable of Nottinghamshire Police Force, said she would struggle to report a crime against herself to the police

because women victims are judged and humiliated when they do. Talking about the toxic culture inside the police, and if you miss that insight, do catch up over at BBC Sounds. While we're also joined by Olivia Pinkney, Chief Constable for Hampshire, who is representing the National Police Chiefs Council saying things had improved. On today's programme, we want to look at the actions of men with men, specifically what will stop certain men from attacking and harming women. Yesterday at Prime Minister's Questions, Boris Johnson described Sarah Everard's murder as appalling and said it had triggered a reaction which was wholly justified.

Unless and until we have a change in our culture that acknowledges and understands that women currently do not feel they are being heard, we will not fix this problem. And that is what we must do. We need a cultural and social change in attitudes to redress the balance, Mr Speaker. And that is what I believe all politicians must now work together to achieve.

At the Dispatch Box, Boris Johnson and the Labour leader, Sakhir Starmer, discussed penalties against men, with Mr Johnson saying it was overwhelmingly men who attack and rape women. This on the same day that it was decided that misogyny will be recorded for the first time as a hate crime by police in England and Wales, after the government bowed to campaigners' demands in the wake of Sarah Everard's murder. The Prime Minister, as you could hear there, conceded there was a limit in what new laws could achieve in attempting to eradicate male violence towards women, and talked about that cultural and social change in attitudes that's needed.

Let me ask you, what do you say to that? And specifically today, we want to open up the space to men too to talk about what will stop certain men from being violent and abusive towards women at home and on the street. We'll be joined by three men shortly, but I'm very keen to hear your views. We know a lot of men listen to the programme. Of course, as always, we want to hear from all of our female listeners too. But this is that space today that perhaps you have been thinking about this, and maybe you've been thinking, I want to hear from some men. Some

of you are already telling us you definitely don't, but that's a whole other discussion in itself. Do get in touch. The number you need to text 84844. What will stop certain men from being violent and abusive towards women? You can text us on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Looking out for those responses right now. So please don't hesitate to get in touch and I'll work in some of your responses to our conversation and perhaps we'll even be able to get one of you on air, one or two of you on air with us as well. But first, we are nearly at the year point since the Prime Minister locked down the country, March 23rd. And if you'd known then what you know now about the whole year ahead, would you have done anything differently? Perhaps you have already

been doing things differently. Perhaps this year has made you think about a whole new life direction. Big, small, bold changes, the great, the little, all in between. My first guest this morning is planning on doing something she railed against and wouldn't have approved of her children doing. Gloria Huniford, the journalist, TV and radio presenter. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Gloria, what are you thinking of doing? Good morning, Emma.

I have to tell you, this is a bit of a gear change in what you've been speaking about already. But I am thinking in my dotage, I suppose, at 80, that I am going to get a small tattoo. And you're right in your introduction in that when I was bringing up my children. I spent all my time, particularly with my daughter, Karen, I spent all my time saying, no, you're not getting a tattoo. And of course, in those days, you did a bit more of what your

parents told you. And sometimes she would say, I'm going to get my ears pierced. And I said, no, you're not. And occasionally she'd come home with a fake tattoo or one of those ear piercing things that goes either side of the ear. And of I'd go crazy and now for whatever inexplicable reason I want to get a small tattoo. You have to tell us more why though because I think it is a symptom of people after the year that we've... I'm not hearing any of that actually. Sorry. I'm terribly sorry I think our line is a little bit crackly there I'll persist. What are you thinking of having having and why why do you think you want to do this now well who knows actually i can't even answer that question if i dig really really deeply i suppose um the mere fact that karen didn't want it and the fact that we lost her of course to cancer as you

may know um maybe deep down because she used to talk about the angels a lot uh maybe i don't want to get that small angel or that small butterfly. So it could be a deep connection or maybe it's just rebellion at the age of 80. Who knows? The question is, where am I going to put it? And I haven't quite actually decided where that should be. OK, well, do let us have that update when you have it, Gloria. I mean, how have you found the last year? Have you been thinking about your life differently? I think everybody has. I mean, I'm a doer and a worker. I've been

working one form or another since I was seven. And the first part of the lockdown, because the weather was so good sort of during the spring and summer, that wasn't so bad as I have like a bit of a holiday. I have to really admit that this last one, because of the weather, every time I open the door, it seems to be raining. I have really been bored, and I'm not a person who gets bored easily. But all the work has started to pick up again.

It's as if since Boris made his announcement about what's opening when, that people suddenly feel charged and the fact that they sort of want to get on with it. So suddenly now I find, like at the beginning of this week, I had to go to Manchester and I thought, gosh, I haven't had to do that sort of nine-hour trip there and back for some time. So you realise how much work then you have to put into it

when everything is open. But I am looking forward to it very much. I want to see people. I want to hug my children and all of that. You know, I kind of want to get on with it now like everybody else and I've had my backs I'm very excited about that and you're going to have to book in at the tattoo parlor as well well that's the thing but I will let you know Emma sort of which one I choose and where I decide to put it on and what exactly it'll. It'll be my husband who thought it was a ridiculous idea at the beginning is now making suggestions that I might be able to get

a little feather, you know, a little white feather because Karen always thought that that was an angel's calling card if you find that single feather. And now I think it might be Karen's calling card. So maybe this is the deep thing within me that for a reason to have a tattoo. Who knows? I don't know. I love it. At the age of 80, you know, there's always that thing. Oh, you don't know how a tattoo will look when you get a bit older. You're in a whole other part of life to think about that now because you're there and you'll know and you'll see it. Well, I think when you get into your third part of your life as I call it you sort of get a bit sort of brave or silly you know so what you're going to do and how you're going to spend

it um so but but I I love life and I want to live my life and that's the thing that I've loathed about the lockdown I feel as if I don't want to waste a minute of it now and that's been the part for me that's been boring at times and in a way frustrating. But I'm going to make the most of whatever is happening because I'm still working and we're commissioned until 22. So that's a good encouraging thing at the age of 80, isn't it? Yeah, well, we should say presenting, of course, and I'm sure many of our listeners will know, rip off Britain and you do many other things too. To bring you to our discussion on Woman's Hour, it has been a very difficult week to watch and listen to the news with the killing of Sarah Everard. And I just wonder if there's something you wanted to say

about women's safety and that feeling of wanting to be free to walk at day or night, which a lot of women don't feel. How have you felt this week and how do you feel about this well it's a a truly awful case and we've all been affected by it and we'll be gone we'll be thinking about it for a very long time um i suppose going back in my own decades um when i was growing up i was never allowed to go anywhere on my own anyway. I was always accompanied by my older sister or one of my parents or somebody. So because we had to walk, my father never drove, so we had to walk everywhere or when we were old enough, go on the bicycle.

So it was very strict. Then I brought my own children up during bombs, bullets and barricades in Northern Ireland. And that was a mixed blessing in a weird way. It was horrible what was happening. But we had to know where our children were. So they couldn't just say in their teens, I'm off to a pub, because we had to know what pub, what area, where are you going? And I never would have let them and I couldn't have cared less whether it was two in the morning, they were coming home home from something I would drive my 15 minutes into Belfast to pick them up because you couldn't take a chance so it's a discipline that we had to have but that was you know a very small upside you might say to the troubles which went on for decades as you know I think in this day and age because the world has changed I think it's

really really difficult and I have grandchildren who live on the common. And I think, you know, whereas we're really thinking of this awful case, in case of a state of this lovely girl, actually, one of my grandchildren actually worked with this beautiful girl, which made it all the more poignant. And I keep warning the boys about, you know, gangs and stabbings and things that happen all the time in London. And we appear to have just lost your line there, Gloria. I'm terribly sorry about that for me and our listeners. Right. I'm very sorry. I think we'll have to leave it there, Gloria, because you've just done that awful thing that is the way of the world at the moment and frozen. Gloria, I think we've got you back.

As well as. We missed a little bit of that, Gloria. I just got up to the point where you were saying you were also warning. I'm so sorry. There is a bad connection here. There is. But I think we've got the gist of it. Gloria, we'll leave it there. The line has held up as best as it could. And it was great to hear that from you. And also, you know, very interesting to hear what you're thinking of doing at the end of this very strange period. We hope the end of this strange period. Gloria, come back and let us know how it goes, what you get and where it goes, crucially. Gloria Hunniford there. Thank you so much. Messages flooding in on this. Thank you, Gloria. Why do certain men attack women and what can be done to stop it? A lot of you have been getting in touch. Elaine says until the social constructs of boys and girls change,

the inferiority of women will always be a problem that can lead to violence. For example, boys playing football are told not to play like a girl. Many more like this. Mike says, I'm a gay man. I've never abused women in any way. However, I feel ashamed of my sex at the moment. The only answer is respect taught from an early age to curb sexist behavior. The other thing is to openly shame men who taunt women.

The brotherhood should support the sisterhood. We'll talk more about that in just a moment. How to stop men attacking certain men. I really want to stress that attacking women. Martina on email, an increased risk of being named and shamed. There's a lot of anger coming through here, which I feel is very fair to reflect at this point because of the week that we have had.

How to stop some men being violent towards women. It starts right at the beginning. Teach children that they are all equal. Girls are not weak or more fragile. Boys are not stronger or more in control. Girls and boys can have the same dreams, hopes, jobs, interests. If this is ingrained from the start, then perhaps there will be fewer cases of control

in whatever form being exerted into adulthood, says Helen, who's mum to a baby girl and stepmum to a 10-year-old boy in Swindon. And Jenny says we need to stop showing violence and sexual scenes on so many evening TV programmes. This makes people think it's the norm to be violent. Indeed, there's a lot of commentary about that only earlier in the week and a few weeks ago

from several critics saying it's often women portrayed in those roles of being victims of that violence and almost it's being fetishised in some way. Keep your messages coming in. Really good to get your take on this. 84844. Statistically, we do know that the more likely victim of male violence is another man. But we also know that most women live with the fear of a feeling of

fear, I should say, on the street and regularly curtail their movements or make slight adjustments. Because of Sarah Everard's murder, we are in the middle of a national conversation about women's safety. And key to that is male behaviour. And talking about the brotherhood being, you know, in line and alongside the sisterhood, we've invited three men to talk about this. So let's welcome to Women's Hour Conroy Harris, the chief executive of a band of brothers, which is an organisation that works with previously violent young men and aims to challenge their attitudes and behaviours and offer them an alternative view of positive masculinity. Good morning, Comroy. Morning.

Thank you for being with us. David Challen, a domestic violence campaigner. In 2010, to remind you of David's family story, when David was 21, his mother Sally went to prison for the murder of his father Richard. She was released after an appeal in 2019. It was a landmark appeal which recognised the lifetime of coercive control she had suffered. And later that charge was reduced to manslaughter. David, good morning. Good morning.

Thank you to you. And Mike Berry, consultant clinical forensic psychologist who's worked with offenders. Mike, welcome to the programme. And I thought I might start with you, Mike, if I can, with an overview of what are the reasons in your experience, your professional experience, that men do attack women? Simple reasons are power and control. Men want to get back the power that they've lost or perceive they've lost and control of women. And are there particular influences at the moment that are more pervasive to that? We already heard somebody getting in touch about television and the way things are shown. They're also getting some messages about porn. What's your view on that? Oh, I agree with your callers that porn is a dangerous element to this.

Because what happens is we fantasize about the perfect woman. We make this woman do things that she normally women wouldn't do in life. And boys get a wrong perception of what sex is about. But it's also with women. There's a computer generated image of a woman with 1.8 million followers. And she's the perfect woman. And what we've got to do is get away from this idea that people are perfect. We've got to show people in their normal day-to-day life. And just on your

thought around the idea of nature versus nurture on this, other messages around education, men learning violence or having some kind of innate, as some put it, this concept of the beast within? What's your view of that? I don't accept the beast within. I accept that there are genetic factors and sense of the size of men for women and things like this, but it's very much environment. We teach kids from a very early age to behave in certain ways. Boys don't cry, man up, all these expressions that we're using. So we're not allowing boys to express emotions, to express weaknesses.

What I love at the moment, all these six foot three butch rugby players who are now starting to come out and expressing emotionality. And they're making it acceptable that boys can cry, boys can be emotional. And I think once we start doing that from an early age, and I'd like to see it from preschool,

teaching boys to express emotions, not to hide them, then I think they're going to be much more willing to express to male and female partners their feelings. There won't be this essential need to be in control and respect and things like that. They learn to cope with ambiguous situations, which life is full of ambiguous situations. Indeed it is. Conroy, to bring you into this, how have you felt, first of all, this week with the framing of this discussion? Yes, it's been an interesting one.

First of all, I'd like to say it coming together on this subject at this time, it's a real tragedy because someone has died. And it's taken the death of a young woman for us to be having this discussion. And that seems somehow the wrong way around it. So my heart goes out to Sarah's family, that they're being spoken about around this and they're not in this. For me, I've been feeling that this has been, I understand a lot of the anger that has been poured out and that anger is also welcome from a lot of women to actually, from their experiences, their experiences over the years and what I've been listening to has been awful. Women have been going through a lot of really difficult stuff on the streets and that sense of safety. I am going to be slightly controversial and we'll be talking about my experiences. I'm

a black male. I've lived in this country from a very early age and my experiences growing up on these streets, they weren't safe for me. They weren't safe for many of my friends and contemporaries. From the age of nine, ten, my mother was telling me I had to protect myself on the streets, learning how to kind of dodge attacks. I've been attacked on the streets many times, had things thrown at me. So I have a level of empathy. It's not the same experience as many women would have had, but there's an experience there of feeling unsafe on the streets. And even now, as an older male, I will be very careful about how I am and how I present myself on the streets, knowing that there are people out

there who have that thing inside them, that predatory thing inside them that look to take advantage when they're drunk. I don't go out to pubs and clubs late at night because it's not safe for me. So I understand that sense of unsafety that many women are feeling. And in that sense, I'm going to be looking to slightly broaden the conversation this morning to one around how so much violence is accepted in our society. We live in a violent society. Most of that violence I accept is perpetrated by men, and men are on the end of it.

But overall, the effect on women and the level of fear that women hold is unacceptable, and there is something that needs to be done. And I'm really proud and pleased to say that I represent an organisation that does work with young men and older men to look at our attitudes around how we are with other men, with women, with society as a whole and look to challenge those attitudes. Let's come back to, I was going to say Conway, thank you for that, let's come back to your work with those boys and men in just a moment because there'll be some vital lessons there which is going to go somewhere I hope to answering this question about how do we stop those boys and men in just a moment, because there'll be some vital lessons there,

which is going to go somewhere, I hope, to answering this question about how do we stop certain men from being violent, full stop, and in the context of this, attacking women. David, good morning again to you. What do you want to say about how you feel this conversation has been happening and being framed this week? I think, you know, there's a lot of discussion around demonising men. And I think it's important to reframe how we are looking at the centralisation of which is women's voices. And I am very thankful to be on Women's Hour

taking up airtime that is devoted to women. I think that's a privileged spot and I recognise that's not welcomed by all women. But I think to recognise women's experiences through men's victimhood first is, at this moment in time, in a very emotional amount of time, really difficult and quite outrageous sometimes. But I do recognise the intersectionality

between male violence, and that happens to men as well, because the majority of men are creating this. But the main point of it is that when young men are being killed in inner cities, when you get knife crime on the front of newspapers, there is outrage. There's not enough outrage, of course. But you don't get women coming out saying what about us i think that's a really interesting part of that argument and when you have police coming out and saying when uh sarah everard was was missing at the time it's like women stay indoors where's that messaging for young men i mean that's a discussion there but it's really highlighting the restrictive elements to men's violence on women's lives of of which they're playing no part in than just living their lives.

And that way they have to think about that consciously. So I think it's so important to centralise women's experiences and men's response that must be informed by it and not to take up the space. And I recognise, obviously, we are taking up space. But that's a very deliberate choice by us here at Womens Hour because, you know, it's a bit like the discussion we had yesterday about the police. You can spend an awful long time saying, and it's very important to do, that, you know, not all police create a toxic environment

to report female crime. But you also then have to create the space to talk about what isn't going well in the police at the moment. And yesterday we had, you know, a sort of eye-opening admission from a former chief constable, Susanna Fish, saying she wouldn't feel comfortable reporting a crime against herself personally within the police. So I think you have to acknowledge those things

and then try and work towards solutions, don't you, to see if you can bring about change. Conroy, that brings us back to your work. In your work, what do you see as the reason why men are violent and specifically towards women? Yeah, that's a complex issue. I don't see a particular one reason. There's a whole raft of things that play into the idea of violence,

some of which have been touched on. Mike has spoke about how we're socialised as male. whole raft of things that play into the idea of violence some of which have been touched on mike has spoke um about um how we're socialized as male males different from females and what happens as young men i can talk about my own personal case and i know for me and again it's it may not be very popular there is something that we talk of unresolved intergenerational trauma. So for me, what that looks like is my early childhood, I was brutalised by a very violent mother. And a lot of the work I do, a lot of the men I work with, they have also had experiences of being brutalised

by violent mothers and things like that. And in return, I'm not going to hold this to my mother because I'm close to her, I love my mother. Her childhood, she was brutalised by a very violent father who brutalised her from a very early age until she had to leave the West Indies to come into this country and she brought that with her and that also plays part of my story. So I'm not saying that's everybody's story but I'm saying the levels of violence we're exposed to, it like a jungle you know if you're picked on you're looking for someone lesser than you and a lot of young men feel that sense of they're looking for someone lesser than them

David brought up the piece around young men and gangs and that sense of what it is to be in a gang and the need for protection and and and being picked on that there is a whole raft of stuff that's happening to young men and and our males that that produce this sense of victims and victims often will look for other victims and women being weaker will often be those um be those victims but again i to say, the vast majority of murders, of serious cases of assault, are going to be men against men. But sorry, the data isn't perfect though, as we know,

because the convictions around, for instance, rape, are at an all-time low. And the data sets themselves don't tell the whole story because it's not just what's happened, is it? It's about the fear of what is going to happen and women modifying their behaviour accordingly. We, we as a society, people modifying their behaviour, young people not going out. Why do so many young men stay in their bedrooms, smoking weed and of um being being on the net looking at um pornography as as mike pointed out because a lot of them are scared to be outside because it's

fearful a lot of young men but we we now understand are suffering trauma from living in fight from living in violent um areas of london and stuff trauma likened to ptsd as an everyday experience even walking to school so if that's men that's also I don't I don't think it's helpful to to isolate one form of violence from another form of violence violence is in society we need to actually come up with ideas to actually have our attitudes towards violence whether it's male female who's doing what to who and start to tackle this as a whole and for me that's about coming together and actually starting to have dialogue open but you must you must see specific examples

in your work of when men want to take it out on women and if i could just ask you about that specifically is that linked to sex or is it about control as you were just talking about what when you see it and it's not just i I'm going to go and lash out, it's I'm specifically going to go and do something to a woman. Can you tell us about that or have you not had that experience? I've never spoke to one young man and I've worked with hundreds of men over the years. I've been in mental health for 30 years,

worked with some really difficult cases. I've worked in secure units. I've worked in prisons. I've worked with hundreds of young men that have come through Vanderbilt. I've never spoke to one who said that he's specifically gone out to hurt women. Maybe a particular woman,

his ex or his partner at that time, for reasons that have gone within that relationship. But the idea that... Well, that would still count still count though wouldn't it come with that that's still counting but then but then we're looking at relationships and that comes back down to what mike says power imbalance it's it's the power that sense of loss of power within the relationship that sense of being kind of impotent that sense of lacking as a as an individual within himself that's why in our work at the Band of Brothers,

we look at what is the individual and what he needs to actually make him understand that he has a responsibility to himself and society. And that's a very important message. Mike, to bring you back in on that, looking at who attacks who, and I understand about the whole point about all violence and what Conroy is saying there about how we need to talk about that.

You know, even if people it doesn't fit their narrative. It's true. That's a huge issue of why people are violent in the first place. But we do not see the same statistics of when men are attacked on the street of that being done by women, do we? I mean, that's just the truth. Yeah, that's true. I think what you've got to realise is violence can be very helpful for men. It's an instrument that they can use to control people. And kids learn from an early age that violence gets them results. And that's one thing we've got to tackle,

is this idea that violence will get you results. The other thing you have to accept is some men enjoy sadistic violence. They actually enjoy it. And we've got to challenge that view. And I've worked with these kind of men for years, and they're very, very difficult to change their attitude. And what you've got to do is you've got to get people willing to change. And a lot of men, unfortunately, as Conroy would say,

in prisons and securities, don't want to change they enjoy violence they enjoy the control it gives them the status you come across these violent men in prisons in the 40s and 50s still exercising extreme violence that's a really important point thanks for bringing that up Mike because again as I have spoken to many men who will say they enjoy fighting, for instance, and kind of men who have kind of been through football hooliganism. And they say, well, we keep it within our own ranks, we will meet up at the football hooligans and we will fight together. Well, it doesn't just stay within their ranks, because they're travelling on trains, they're travelling on transport in groups and gangs, and frightening people around them so that they actually do get a thrill of

enjoying violence david to bring you back in at this point what would you say is your view of men who in inverted commas respectable men who haven't been brutalized in the home who may not have had any of the problems that comroys talked about who still go on to abuse and not necessarily on the street, in their own home. Yeah, we've got to talk about engagement here. You know, we don't just need to talk about men's violence against women, obviously it's sexual harassment. I think you won't get the same levels. The statistics aren't being reported at the moment,

but you won't get the same levels of sexual harassment that men carry out against women that happen to men that won't happen you know 97 percent of women aged 18 to 24 have all experienced it and you've got to open up a holistic viewpoint to women's experiences and just the lack of engagement on that and a lack of engagement and discussion in society from men caring about that you know a lot of men coming around uh coming out like i never knew that that that's how much fear was dictating your life by just me as a man walking down the street with you or or just being in a lift alone or you know just opening your eyes out in that conversation is is really important you know talking about just the

other day i heard a broadcaster debate consent with an actual female campaigner who's trying to get misogyny uh recognized a hate crime it's it's really these conversations great because obviously we're getting discussions that come out about men's viewpoints um but really it's about yeah as coming back to your point you know you've got to engage men who have misogynistic views because one sex is joking your circle someone might be taken at home behind closed doors and coercively controlling non-physical violence but as severe uh to a woman and it's all our duty even as men women have been having this conversation too long alone why aren't men getting involved why are we being offended by being asked to get involved? Just talking about your own

experience, because we've been talking about growing up, you know, your mum, of course, went to prison for the murder of your father, reduced to manslaughter and a landmark case, as I said. But you will have seen up close coercive control. You will have seen what was going on. And you also, you know, we to acknowledge uh what your mum did as well and i know that you do that within this when we're talking about violence do you have a view on where that comes or where that came from within your own family and and you know how you have had to handle that as a child of that environment i don't i can't speak for where it came from um you know i don't know my father's upbringing, but I recognise, and what Conroy is saying,

is recognising that, like I said earlier as well, the intersectionality between male violence and finding the root causes of it. If you look at my mum's offending of where she killed my father, when it looked further into that and the language of coercive control, you understand it was rooted in domestic abuse. And a lot of women are in prison who have experiences of that. And right now the government is creating more prisons to put those women in,

rather than women's centres to holistically approach tackling those issues. And so, you know, it's about engaging young men. I've walked into loads of domestic abuse conferences, a privileged place full of women, and they're coming to me and saying it's really great what you're doing. It's so rare to see men speaking out against this.

And that feels really embarrassing. I know there's loads of great men talking about it, but is there enough organisational power to get men having a conversation on a bigger platform, engaging with women's charities and their experiences and what we can do to help, as well as asking each other and finding our own impetus to actually do something worthwhile. I think the work that Conway does is amazing.

And obviously the work that Mike does is incredible in doing that research, but there needs to be some organisational progression on this with the average man on the street, because there's a lot now wanting to know what they can do and you know what just follow some challenges Southfield Black Sisters Twitter just jump on there women's women's aid what can you do domestic abuse what's happening migrant women aren't being protected get outraged about that decriminalization as you brought up get outraged about that 98.5 percent of rapes don't lead to a prosecution. That's crazy. Get angry about

that. You know, there's so many ways to engage, but let's have a discussion about it. And, you know, that's the important thing. Conroy, do you, I mean, do you feel that there is almost a fence taken? We've had a few messages from men saying, I'm so sick of being made to feel like it's all men you know and and and but actually i suppose what david's saying there is can we just get over the offense and actually engage with the reality it's it's really difficult for a lot of men to actually um get get get away from that idea of getting getting over the offense uh because there's a sense of shaming and they may have had difficult

backgrounds in the past and I have to say something that I've learned over this past year, last year when we had the awful murder of George Floyd and the massive outcry and public kind of anger around that and that led to the Black Lives protests. And for me, I have to say there's a similarity. And what that similarity is, unless we can actually, what the Black Lives Matter and the George Floyd killing that showed us was that black people, white people, all people of all ethnicities need to get together and start discussing their ideas about discrimination

and what they hold inside of them. Similarly on this, men and women need to be talking about this. We need to have safe spaces. Just like David just said then, he turns up to... And I used to be a domestic violence champion when I worked in social services, and I was one of the few men that was ever in that room. We need more men alongside women discussing these ideas and having open dialogue as to what we need to change attitudes.

It's not a white people's problem alone to change racism. It's all about, it's a societal issue. And it's the same with this, it's a societal issue of violence that we all need to feed into to start to look for solutions. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, I was going to say, Corboyd, though, isn't it the point, though, that a lot of men will just think, this is not my problem, I don't want to be a part of this? Some women will be thinking, I don't want to talk to men about this.

You know, when you say we need to have these conversations, of course, we're trying to do this right now on Woman's Hour. Exactly. But how do you go about it, do you think? Well, there you go, you've started that. Again you think? Well, there you go. You've started that. Again, as David said, there's a real privilege here as three men to come into a women's space, a women's programme, to actually hear our views and start to have the discussion.

Again, I'd invite more women's groups and more single-sex groups to invite men along, to invite men like Mike, like David, men who work in these fields, and other men to come and sit along and start to have open discussions and be there. Conroy. We have sisters, we have mothers, we have daughters. Let me just put this to you. Sorry, let me just put this to you. We've got a message here saying men need to police each other.

Nice men need, in inverted commas, need to challenge misogynistic comments, jokes that belittle and objectify women. Comedians need to stop all those jokes about women that keep those going. Women need to stop internalising misogyny and say that they're being treated as slaves at home. But mainly men, men, men sort your brothers out. What do you make of that? Well, going back again to what Mike said, unless men want to change,

they're not going to put themselves in places where they're going to be challenged by those types of men. You know, good men will be challenging that type of thing. You know, the men I work with, even even young men you see them change their attitudes they will come to us and they will have some negative attitudes around a lot of these subjects trans rights homophobic attitudes and we gently challenge we don't we don't shame we don't try to belittle we we invite people to look at kind of where those attitudes sit inside themselves where they may have um learned to kind of hold those attitudes and find ways to challenge in themselves and that's the only way people need to come to it themselves if you if I keep telling you that you need to do something you need to do this you need to do that what I'll find

is you'll start to put up an objection towards me and you'll and I'll just feel your your kind of pushback again but Mike we've got to change people's behaviour rather than just criticise. We've got to actually change people's behaviour. I like this idea of the new hate laws. I think that has a great effect, but there are lots of legal problems with it. But I think we've got to consider changing people's behaviour rather than just criticising. Well, just to say that news last night that the government plans to make misogyny a hate crime, that's what you're referring to.

What this actually means, just to explain, is in the autumn, on an experimental basis, police forces in England and Wales will be asked to collect data on whether violent crimes are committed on the basis of someone's sex or gender. The crimes against the person would include stalking, harassment and sexual offences, where the victim perceives it to have been motivated

by hostility based on their sex. We have had some messages on that. David, do you welcome that? And also, what do you make of the idea of you've got to let people come to it when they are ready to? Because maybe those men that we're talking about who are violent against women and violent generally against men will never be ready. I mean, is that the right way to think about this? I mean, I welcome, obviously, misogyny being drafted as a hate crime and how that's carried out. It's something else, but it's important that that's recorded, that we're here finally recording that. It's the dark ages to be honest much i felt in the courtroom about coercive control not bringing the fence

but um but waiting for men i think it's engaging them uh yeah engaging them in conversation asking them why you know why do they feel that way uh you know i think it's just really just just challenging them it's it's just really just challenging them. But you know what, David, just to break in, we've had a message here, which I think is really important to share. It's a great discussion, but I would like to hear from a man honest enough to admit his own urges to abuse women and why,

even if it's suppressed. That's from Catherine who's listening. And I'll just use this platform then to say, if you do want to talk to me and you do want to talk about those urges and perhaps you have acted on them in the past, please do get in touch with me here at Woman's Out. We can do this on another day. We can come back to it. We don't have to give you a real name because I think it is important to not just hear from the men who are either specialists or trying to change this. It is important to hear from some

of the men that you will have worked with, Conroy from some of the men that you will have worked with, Conroy, some of the men that you will have spoken to, Mike and David. So 84844 is the number you need to message or you can email us via our website or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Do get in touch and you can talk to us and talk to me and you do not have to give your real name because I think Catherine's right.

That is a very important voice to have represented in this. Conroy, very briefly, I'm nearly out of time. Do you think this could be a moment for change? I really hope so. I really hope so. And just to say, Jo, we are short of time, but I am one of those men who felt brutalised and who felt angry with women for a large part of my teenage years

and had resentment against women. And it's only kind of by looking at myself and wanting to change that I took the treatment and did the work necessary to challenge my own attitudes. And that's what's led me to be doing this work with other men, because I know it's possible and I know it can happen. We can make change. And this is a really important time for us as a society, be it around race, be it around trans rights. All these issues and our opinion and violence, male violence, violence as a whole.

Let's come together and let's start tackling this. The organisation's called A Band of Brothers. Chief Executive, that's your Chief Executive role for Conroy Harris. Thank you. David Challen, a domestic violence campaigner, and Mike Berry, a consultant clinical forensic psychologist who has worked with offenders.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Are you fed up with the news? Next slide, please. The skewer. The skewer. The skewer.

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