Woman's Hour - Men & porn, Women's Diaries, South Korea birth rate

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

As part of our ongoing series on pornography and how it’s shaping our relationships, we’ve heard from many of our female listeners whose attitudes and feelings towards porn vary greatly. Men are still the major consumers and producers of porn, so today we hear from some of them. Clare McDonnell is joined by the Times journalist Sean Russell, a man in his 30s, and two listeners: Jake, who is in his 40s, and also Gabriel, who is in his 60s. The three share how porn has shaped their sex and relationships.Do you keep a diary? Why and who for? Is it for yourself or for potential readers in the future? And does it allow you to express emotions that have no other outlet? These are just some of the themes explored in Secret Voices: A Year of Women's Diaries, which has been billed as the first comprehensive anthology of solely female diarists. Compiled by the historical biographer Sarah Gristwood, it features entries from over the past four centuries, from the likes of Florence Nightingale, Beatrix Potter, Audre Lorde and Emma Thompson.The government in South Korea has said the country’s birth rate has fallen to a record low, despite it having spent billions on initiatives to encourage women to have more children. It dropped to 0.72 in 2023 - and for a population to hold steady, that number should be 2.1. Why are women in the country deciding not to have children? BBC journalist Yuna Ku in Seoul explains.Have you ever asked yourself: “Does my bum look big in this?" According to major UK clothes retailer, this question is no longer a bad thing. In fact, we should be aiming for it. They’ve taken big knickers to a whole other level, launching a new form of shapewear with bum padding, adding extra volume and curvature to your derriere. Anna Murphy is the Times’ Fashion Director. She’s tried out a similar model and explains her reaction.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Kirsty Starkey Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. You are about to hear a conversation rarely, if ever, heard on the radio. Men in their 30s, 40s and 60s discussing their porn use, how it started, how it affected their first sexual encounters and how it informs their sex lives today. Their concerns about how, thanks to targeted algorithms, you are only ever a few short clicks away from darker, more violent content, but also how watching porn has helped with their creativity in the bedroom.

We've heard from women in our deep dive into porn here on Woman's Hour today. It's the turn of the men. Also, do you keep a journal, a diary, a daily manifest maybe, or maybe you post on social media? Is that your daily diary? Well, Sarah Gristwood will join us in the Woman's Hour studio. She's just compiled a year of women's diaries billed as the first comprehensive anthology of solely female diarists,

featuring entries from the likes of Florence Nightingale, Beatrix Potter and Sylvia Plath. Sarah says the overriding emotion she felt linked many of these diaries was anger. So tell me, why do you take the time to commit to paper or digitally your daily internal monologue for a sense of well-being maybe, to untangle the day's events, or just to say something on paper that you really can't in person? I'd love to hear from you. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We are at BBC

Woman's Hour and you can email us through the website. You can also send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can terms and conditions can be found on our website also the government in south korea has been paying women to have children but it hasn't had the desired effect on the birth rate in fact it's going down not up we'll go to seoul to try and find out why and does my bum look big in this well I hope it does because I've just invested in a pair of bum enhancing shorts. Yes, it may have taken us decades to shake off the tyranny of the push-up bra, but brace yourselves, we are heading into a new era of push-up bottoms. The padded shorts will

hit the shops this summer and we're going to hear from Sunday Times style editor Anna Murphy, who's just on a photo shoot in a pair of these beauties. Did she embrace the pad or is it just another fad? All on the way here on Woman's Hour today. Now, as part of our ongoing series on pornography and how it's shaping our relationships, we've heard from many of our female listeners whose attitudes and feelings towards porn range greatly. It's been a very frank and honest set of conversations. Men, of course, are still the major consumers and producers of porn. And as a result, we also wanted to hear their voice. Now, no one group of men, of course, all women can claim to be representative of an entire gender. But three men

did agree to speak to me as part of this series, and we can hear them now. Sean Russell is the Times journalist who has written for the paper about his porn use. Sean is in his 30s. We're also joined by two listeners who didn't want to share their real names. One we're calling Jake, who's in his 40s, and also Gabriel, who's in his 60s.

I started by asking Sean to tell me how his porn use shaped his real-life relationships when he was young. I had an idea of what sex was, and it was based on porn. I'd been watching porn from the age of, say, 13 through to my first experiences, which would have been in my late teens, sort of 16 through 18, through 21. And it was an immense amount of pressure. I think there's always going to be pressure I think there's always going to be

pressure and there's always going to be fear about the first times I think that's goes of sort of goes of sex and goes of being young but I think when you're exposed to literally thousands of hours of of online video porn you start to think oh I have to last this long I have to do this amount of positions I have to be this size I have to do this I have to last this long. I have to do this amount of positions. I have to be this size. I have to do this. I have to do that. And then suddenly when you're presented and then you have a girlfriend over or you're in a situation where you're about to have sex, that suddenly becomes incredibly daunting. So my first relationships were actually built around a sort of feeling of fear and anxiety. And I tell stories of situations where I was probably about to have sex and then chicken out and sort of shut it down quickly.

And that came from fear. And then equally at university, I had situations where I would be in my bedroom with a woman. And then for whatever, what I believe is performance anxiety, you just couldn't perform. It just couldn't happen. And I think porn has always played a part in that. Jake, same question to you then. Do you think your early relationship with porn changed how you had sexual relationships as an older person? I think much later on, I think with watching porn rather than magazines as a kid or even likeames bond movies always had sex scenes in them and for me that seemed like quite naughty and and grown up but i think later on definitely i relate to the last um speaker's point if there becomes a narrative in porn which i'm really interested in which is it's really problematic is this way that it has to perform and how it works in a sort of narrative way, as in the acts that you do and how it has to end, etc, etc. And when I first started having sex as a 14, 15 year old, there wasn't that narrative spelled out because the only way one would have seen porn is static in a magazine.

Whereas obviously there's a narrative in video porn or online porn. You were much more instinctive when you were younger. Yeah, totally. And that changed, did it, as your access to porn grew? Yeah, completely changed. It was much more instinctive. It was much more messy. I don't mean physically messy, but, you know,

we were making it up together. And, you know know it was really awkward as a 14 year old 15 year old but myself and and the woman would be would be making up as we go along um and i think then since porn being so readily available i think my sexual experiences are much more there's much more of a narrative about how sex should work and it's almost less awkward but more performative perhaps i know you're a heterosexual man so how would you say so that's your experience but how how has that changed for the women that you've been with as well is that the same thing that applies to them that they feel like they're performing as well a hundred percent

i really i really i notice it even more so like in the last few years, even is that that idea of a narrative and also even how sex acts work is quite different. And I'm really convinced that that's a lot down to the narratives of pornography. You can spell it out because we're going there on this series. When you say how sex acts work, what do you mean specifically? been given oral sex um the eye contact from the woman has become a thing i've noticed that it's really like strangely obvious in a way i'd also say that i mean anal sex is a thing that seems to be to be more prevalently like assumed perhaps um assumed by whom By both parties or? I think so. Yeah. Sexual experiences have become different in terms of it very much feels like there's a third person in the room. In terms of what I mean by that is it like more or what how sorry not what I look like how the sex looks like more than I did previously and be more in the moment and I definitely think for women and

talking to female friends that they they would agree with that and would you say that's a negative thing because you're disconnecting from the person you're with yeah and and maybe thinks about good sex like supposedly good sex and inverted commas needs to look really good probably more so for women because in most porn like women are more objectified perhaps than men Gabriel let's have the same question to you then do you think that's necessarily a bad thing the way that easier access to porn has changed how people relate to one another in the bedroom is that your experience um well no not not for me because I suppose I formed my ideas of how things are going to go long before all this so

I think actually no I had I had a bit of a revelation when internet porn came along because I just learned a lot. To be honest with you, before that, it was always pretty repetitive and kind of boring. Not boring. No, boring is the wrong word, but I don't know, formulaic or something. And then I came across internet porn, I guess, in the 90s. And I thought, oh, wow, you can do all this other stuff. So it was actually sort of a bit liberating.

I mean, when I started reading about sex in the 70s, and oral sex was a big deal, and the man had to give the woman an orgasm, that was a really, you had to do that. But beyond that, it it was i don't know maybe i just haven't got very much imagination but when it came when paul came along before that i'd only seen pictures so you're only looking at still images and then in the 90s you're looking at moving images and you you get a lot of i mean i obviously, you know a lot of it's unrealistic,

it's just, you know, because it's a film, but I just realised, actually from lesbian porn more than anything, just thinking, oh, you can do that. You know, that's interesting. I didn't know you could do that. I suppose for me, being of an older generation, it was, yeah, it was actually quite liberating. So educational as much as anything else. Yeah, but, yeah, it was actually quite liberating. So educational as much as anything else.

Yeah, but, yeah, I must admit, I don't look at a lot of porn with men in. So maybe I'm missing a lot of brutality or whatever. I feel like I've learned a lot. And it's, you know, it's not just in my fantasies. It works. I wanted to pick that up with you, actually, Sean and Jake, about the way Gabriel took that into the brutality because a lot of the women we've spoken to in this series say

porn has had a negative effect inside the bedroom for them in their relationships. We heard from Sophie who told us, porn has left me feeling fundamentally unsafe in sexual interactions. Previous partners have violated my boundaries due to porn consumption. So on one side, it kind of opens up your experience and your mind and your imagination to a world of possibilities. But it's not all positive, is it, Sean?

Do you understand why Sophie feels that way? Yeah, 100%. I think the difference between, of say my experience and the previous speakers is that it's almost like inverted whereas learning about sex through doing and learning and with another person it's going for the opposite it's like you have everything there this is you go on a website and there's just literally millions of videos. And then you find out that sex is, for the most part, different to that. And so I mentioned a study in my story. I think it was a 2021 study which said one in eight videos suggested to first-time users was violent now.

My personal experience is it's never been something that I particularly enjoyed. But those videos are always there. It's, you know, you go on to look at one type of video and then eventually you just keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And you find so many other videos that you would never think to watch. But then when they're there, people are going to click on them. And that's the point. There's an algorithm at work that's kind of bringing people into these situations so whereas when i was watching videos and growing up they tended to be pretty much lesbians and it was always a little bit more um well it certainly

wasn't violent and but i built my ideas of how sex was through these videos but if i was starting with violent videos then i'd begin to think that was normal if i think that um a woman wants to be choked and that's a normal part of sex because i've learned about it from porn then i'm more likely to implement it without thinking you i guess because that's what you think sex is um and that will go the same with all sorts like uh slapping and and gagging and all of these things that are quite violent and some people will want that and some people won't but if you think that that's what sex is then you're not going to think to ask I think in in many cases and and that's why I feel that even when I was young it was still more difficult we still had a family PC and it wasn't until I was probably 16, 17

that smartphones came along. If you increased the amount that you're able to watch and made it even easier, you're seeing more videos, you're getting through more of the suggested videos. You're going to see these things and you're going to try them out. And I think that's where this disconnect comes from.

And it doesn't surprise me at all that women in particular are feeling less safe when having sex. Jake, you mentioned the fact that you have young children. And another point Sophie made was the way that porn has sort of indirectly seeped into the rest of culture, you know, with the media, with advertsverts with jokes like doggy style and and she knows 13 and 14 year old girls who are having anal sex and she said you know how else has that come into our culture other than via porn i just pick up on what sean was saying that you know these days you can access the dark stuff pretty easily the algorithm will take you right

there um that's quite dangerous territory to be in isn't it for young minds yeah i i would agree completely um the other thing that sean was saying i think's really interesting is these tropes like choking has become i've numerous like female friends that are single and you know have relationships with guys and so often they've mentioned like that the guy seemed to think if it was you know it was just a casual thing but that the guy thinks it's totally acceptable and wanted to be they would choke the person during sex which is the the woman rather during sex which i just find like for me anyway that seems like such a new thing but apparently talking to female friends like really common and unwanted on like 90 of the

time gabriel what would you say to that do you think it should be that easy to access i think you're underestimating how much imagination we had to be. I think of some of the kids at school, you know, they were talking about all sorts of stuff. In the absence of pornography, people don't just do nothing. They still try stuff out. I don't think anal sex is a new thing. People are together, they try stuff.

I mean, one of the things, I got The Joy of Sex, the book, quite early on, actually, in the early 80s. And it's in there. You know, it's not rare, it's not weird. I think, I mean, erotic asphyxiation isn't new either, is it? I mean, people choking themselves to have an orgasm is not unusual. Or it is unusual, but it's not new. So I don't know how much, you know, if you take away porn, would everybody just go back to doing the missionary position? I don't think so. You know, people have been trying out weird stuff since forever.

I think we're having a bit of a moral panic here maybe because we're, you know, we're thinking all this is really new and it isn't. You know, people back in the 60s, you know, the swinging 60s, people were doing all sorts of stuff. I think we really are sort of, we've got a sort of, it's like a history-free zone, this. It's like we don't seem to know what the past was like. It's not a foreign country.

It's actually remarkably familiar. It's just there's no videos. And there's less quantity. But the information was there. Sean, pick up on that point that this is all a bit of a moral panic. It's nothing new. What do you think to what Gabriel's just said? I agree that it's nothing new.

I don't sort of cast a moral thing on any of the acts in and of themselves or even porn i'm not anti-porn particularly either um i just think that the difference is that maybe you learn this stuff in a loving relationship maybe if a couple wants to try something fine go for it but i think the difference is when a 13 14 year old believes that to be normal. Does a young woman have enough sort of information to make that judgment herself? Or does she feel an expectation to do the thing that the boy has seen on online porn? So I don't think it's the acts themselves that are wrong.

And no, there is nothing new. I just think that it's so much easier to access now. And I think that it's so much easier to access now and i think that it is changing the way that young people are approaching their first relationships and i wonder what damage that could do this is not trying some sort of sexual position in a loving relationship or or even just you know having a bond with someone and trying something it is possibly even someone losing their virginity in this way and i think it's one thing if it's done in a safe environment um but if that is what is expected and people are not wanting these acts and as you said i think you mentioned sophie it clearly is happening

in a way to a lot of people where they don't where they're having sex that they don't necessarily want or they're trying things that they don't necessarily want and they're feeling a pressure because that's how a lot of people feel sex should be from the moment they get going. They haven't started at missionary and moved in. They've gone straight in for choking and more extreme forms of sex and they haven't grown into them. I think that's probably what my point would be on that. Yeah, I mean, people of my generation and before did not necessarily learn what they were doing in a loving relationship. I mean, there's kids playing sex games in the garden.

I don't know what they got up to. But no, I think you've got a bit of a golden age idea here. It wasn't like that, honestly. There was one girl in our class who was clearly very i suppose these days you'd say she was sexualized but she was clearly you know she had very we were again junior school and she was talking about stuff that had happened and you know she's completely whether she's damaged or not i don't know but it was there all i'm saying is that and people did do stuff they didn't want i'm sure you. You know, people had bad experiences that were, you know, were not what they wanted.

They were not consenting. I mean, consent's the point, isn't it, to me, in this whole conversation. It's about consent. You know, it's not about what people do. It's about whether they're allowed to say no and be listened to. I've got a final question to all three of you. So you've all had various different relationships because of the different ages you are with porn down the years. But in 2024, is it possible to have a healthy relationship with porn given its proliferation and accessibility?

Jake, let's start with you i think probably there is my worry is that the ethics of it is like the performers in pornography is their safety and rights or what have you there's obviously ethical supposedly ethical porn um which i'm quite interested in as a concept, also watching that perhaps. It is healthy, but just it seems that most porn that's available is like the lowest common denominator, if you see what I mean. And I don't know whether like if ethical porn, if there is such a thing, could be more prevalent, that would be interesting.

Gabriel? I'd like kids to know the difference between porn and real life better. I think they're more able to distinguish fantasy films from real life. You know, they don't go out and shoot people normally, even though they watch action movies. Maybe kids aren't taught enough, so they go to porn, or young boys especially, go to porn for information. And maybe it isn't so clear that this is entertainment, fantasy,

and this is real life. And they're two. They are. I mean, now I still use porn not as much, and I have a good sexual relationship as well. And the two are quite separate. You know, they really don't have much to do with each other. Sean, let's end with you.

What do you think? Yeah, I agree 100 100 of what has just been said i think it took me probably until my 20 early 20s when i realized that these two things were separate entities and again i haven't got a problem i think there are a lot of problems surrounding porn i think it could be ethically better it could be better for the sex workers it could be better for the viewers it could be better for the sex workers. It could be better for the viewers. It could be better for people involved with it. But the main thing, and I sex and I believe I do believe it was it will come at some point but yeah you can't have you can't be throwing kids into these situations where that's what they think sex is and I think that that's where the issues come from not just

violence but also the things I've talked about in terms of like fear and anxiety about even going into these relationships um and so I wonder if there is a way of making it harder for children to access porn uh before the age of 18 but I do on the whole I believe it is possible to have a healthy relationship with porn and I don't think porn's going anywhere anytime soon well it is a frank and honest conversation and we thank Sean Russell uh Jake and Gabriel, not their real names, for joining in on that one. On Monday, we will hear

from a listener worried that her husband is depressed. Since he retired, he watches pornography all day on his laptop and won't discuss it. You can hear her story and advice for couples where porn use is an issue.

And what do we actually know about porn and the effects on the brain that's coming up on monday's woman's hour thank you for everybody who's got in touch with the program so far quite a few people saying why are we hearing male voices on woman's hour i don't want to hear men talking about porn on this show well it is a 360 conversation and as we said going into this men are the main producers and consumers of pornography. So it's an important part of the conversation. You can join in. Text me 84844.

These men are being so open and honest. It's great. And I have never been so grateful that I grew up when I did in the 60s to the 80s and that the performance idea wasn't anything like it is now. Another male listener says this, my introduction to porn was in 2001, having had very little sexual relationships before. I was in my 30s by then. It introduced me to a whole world of sex. It became my education. Prior to this, in my teens, I suffered trauma and abuse and became isolated and lonely, so did not have normal relationships. In my 40s, I met and married the most wonderful woman and tried to give up watching and reading porn. But when I became stressed or unhappy, I went back to it. It has now cost me my marriage and I am totally lost and broken. Thank you so

much for getting in touch. And this texter, just for now, because there's lots more to read, I'll get back to them. I'm terrified of what my daughter, nearly 16, will encounter in the coming years. Do text the programme, get involved in the conversation, the number again, 84844. Now, let's move on to talk about diaries. Do you keep one? Why and who do you keep it for? Is it for yourself or for potential readers in the future? And does it allow you to express emotions that have no other outlet? a year of women's diaries, which has been billed as the first comprehensive anthology of solely female diarists. Compiled by historical biographer Sarah Griswood, it features entries from over the past four centuries from the likes of Florence Nightingale, Beatrix Potter, Audre Lorde and Emma Thompson. I'm delighted to say Sarah joins me in the Woman's Hour studio now. Welcome. Thank you.

It's fantastic to have you here. That is quite a hefty tone. What fascinates you about this subject? Well, I've been riveted by women's diaries for a very long time. I think it is that question that you've just voiced of writing in privacy. But are you really talking just to yourself or are you stretching out a hand in the dark? A lot of these women were putting down feelings that they couldn't voice openly in past centuries, but maybe they wished they could. So it's a kind of therapy for many women. Yes, indeed, we're all told now about the virtues of journaling,

but women have known that for a very long time. It spans four centuries. This is a huge research project you've pulled together. Diaries, the entries cover the minutiae of women's lives, as well as their recording of significant historical events. So I guess it's a really important record of women and their relation to what was going on around them. Well, I think that's very true.

I think besides the sheer pleasure of hearing women's voices from the past, talking in a way we might easily talk with our friends today, there is also that sense of, for a historian, just what the great events of the past did mean in terms of people's ordinary lives. I love one entry from Virginia Woolf back in 1918. She said that the day was notable for three things. Talk of peace, their first visit to the Seventeen Club and the breaking of her tortoiseshell spectacles. She said that the first piece was of course the most important but it's pretty obvious

it was the spectacles on her mind. As it would be for all of us and ordinary women as well. Yes. You delve into their lives, you've got a little excerpt you'd like to read us. Absolutely. I think my almost favourite all-time entry is from Nella Last. We may now know her as Housewife 49 from the TV adaptation, but at the time she was an ordinary housewife living in Barrow-in-Furness and writing her diary for the Mass Observation Project. But in 1940, I reflected tonight on the changes the war had brought. I always used to worry and flutter round when I saw my husband was working up for a mood, but now I just say calmly, really dear, you should try and act as if you were a grown man and not a child of ten. He told me rather wistfully that I was not so sweet

since I'd been working down at the centre. And I said, well, who wants a woman of 50 to be sweet anyway? And besides, I suit me a lot better. Wow. I love that. That is, I mean, it's as fresh as today, isn't it? Absolutely. And there is so much that is, isn't there? I mean, I've got so many people I want to ask you about this book. But Elizabeth Fry, for example, the Quaker and prison reformer, she was juggling this incredible career. Tell us a little bit about her, first of all. No, absolutely. As you say, we're going back 200 years. She was a Quaker and she was the great reformer of prisons as the 18th century turned into the 19th. But she was writing about the two entries from her that I particularly remember. And one of them was how she worried that her husband and children, I think it was 11 children, were distracting her from what she saw as her vocation, the prison reform, from her career, effectively, and how the husband and children got jealous when she spent too much time on her work.

Well, that's one that hasn't exactly gone away today. Certainly hasn't. Beatrix Potter as well. Yes. gone away today. It certainly hasn't. Beatrix Potter as well. I mean, she had, there's lots of situations where these incredibly competent, talented women are getting the male brush off. Tell us about what happened when she went to Kew. Exactly. No, Beatrix Potter kept a diary in code for many of the early years of her life. Now, the diary stopped when she began to move out into the world and become successful with The Little Tales.

I guess she no longer felt the need for it. But she suffered, like Florence Nightingale, who also wrote this despairing early diary, this long kind of pupillage as a Victorian young lady at home. She began to do these, Beatrix Potter, these drawings of fungi, massively respected now, but in her day, she went to show them to the director of Kew, who was just brushing her off, and Beatrix wrote,

it's very frustrating for a shy person to be treated as if they were conceited, especially when the shy person happens to be right. What a great put down. Is there anyone you've discovered in this huge research project, anyone high profile that has changed your perception of them? Quite a lot. I mean, the classic example, which many of us probably do know, is Queen Victoria writing after her wedding night,

you know, about how Albert had come in to put her stockings on for her. The sense and how wonderful he looked in skin-tight breeches with nothing underneath them. But Virginia Woolf, who we've mentioned, we all know her as a writer, a diarist, Bloomsbury who'd have guessed that she had a passion for cars that she wrote I know, Virginia Woolf is a petrol head

that's brilliant and there's people I didn't even know like Ada Blackjack the souls of Inuit woman who was hired to accompany this arctic expedition in the 1920s. She became the sole survivor living there for months.

I didn't know her story and I can't believe I didn't. Tell me about your personal journey through this. When you were editing this book and it was published soon after the loss of your husband, Derek, did these diaries, and I know a lot of them talk about grief, the grief that women go through. Yes. How did that help you? Yes, I think it did. I think there is a kind of support in knowing that women before you have felt what you're feeling and come through it and for me particularly after Derek died there was a kind of yes yes when I saw another writer

old Dawn Powell for example or Frances Partridge writing about well about the sudden anger, how you had to hate someone for still being alive when your husband was dead, about the need almost to, one of them said, to crochet yourself back into life with large hoops of wool. I had very much that sense. But I think there is a sense of support because a lot of the things that women write about that I quote in this book, we do tend to think of as either as modern dilemmas like the work career or as our own personal problem. And sometimes even now we can't speak wholly openly about things. Grief is difficult to speak about. But reading the voices of other women, you do just feel this strong sense of an encompassing protective circle around you and behind you. Did they help you, these women who are no longer here, but did they feel like they were very much? Yes, they absolutely did. It did feel literally,

perhaps it's overblown an image. It did feel like having a circle of supporters standing at my back. That's incredible. That is incredible. I just want to finish with anger. That was the overriding emotion that you said, if you had to nail it in one with anger that was the overriding emotion that you said if you had to nail it in one word what was the overriding thread of emotion that ran through these diaries yes um i guess not much has changed on that front either i mean please do read us another excerpt if you'd like to well oddly enough right opposite the nella last one that i read which she was writing 14th of march yesterday. There's one from Sophia Tolstoy, wife of, obviously, the great novelist,

and many years earlier. And she's writing about how difficult it is to be married to a genius. She says, I've served a genius for almost 40 years. She says that, you know, you have to create a peaceful, comfortable home. The genius must be fed and washed and dressed, must be spared of all causes for jealousy. You must feed and educate the innumerable children the genius has fathered, but can't be bothered to take care for.

And she says, hundreds of times I felt my intellectual energy stir within me, and all sorts of desires, a longing for education, a love of music and the arts. And time and time again, I've crushed and smothered all these longings. And now and to the end of my life, I shall somehow or another continue to serve my genius. And that word is, you know, in sarcastic underlinings. It's been absolutely brilliant. So many people are getting in touch, so many listeners with their stories of daily journaling, however they do it. The book is called Secret Voices, A Year of Women's Diaries. Historical biographer Sarah Gristwood is the author.

Thank you so much for coming in. Lots of you getting in touch on this. Daily journaling has helped me get out of a relationship with a violent narcissist. Reading back over things I'd written and seeing how things had only got worse empowered me to leave. This text there, I've been keeping a diary since I was in primary school, looking back on early entries is hilarious. And they become ever more cringeworthy as I enter my teenage years.

And this, no name on this one, I began a three good things diary when I was diagnosed with early stage breast cancer last May. Really sorry to hear that. I just write down three positive, happy, funny things that happen each day. It's been a wonderful way to remember that. I just write down three positive, happy, funny things that happen each day. It's been a wonderful way to remember how lucky I am to be alive. Thank you for that. So I just didn't ask you. Do you keep a diary? No, not in the form that I could quote here. My diary is effectively the photos on my mobile phone. But that listener with who keeps the effectively a gratitude journal. One famous diarist, of course, is Oprah Winfrey. And she very consciously changed from writing down her problems in her journal, she said, to writing down things to be grateful for.

Exactly that, like three things in the day that had really worked for her. Whatever works. Thank you so much. An absolutely fascinating read. Thank you so much for dropping by the Women's Hour studio. Thank you. Now, I have to tell you about a programme that we are doing next week. A week today, in fact. Family commitments, lack of money, that fear inside that you just aren't up to it.

What is it that holds you back from starting up your own business if you've ever thought about it well a week today as i said anita is going to be in doncaster with a special edition of woman's hour who wants to be a female entrepreneur she'll be talking to local entrepreneurs about uh their blockers and solutions to not just in starting up but in thriving and moving on to the next level as well so that's anita on woman's hour a week today in doncaster and keep your diary stories coming in and also your views on what you heard from our men talking about porn earlier the text number you need 84844 now let's take you to south k Korea, where the government says the birth rate has fallen to a record low,

despite it having spent billions on initiatives to encourage women to have more children. The country's birth rate dropped to 0.72 in 2023, and for a population to hold steady, that number should be 2.1. Globally, developed countries are seeing birth rates fall, but none in such an extreme way as South Korea, which has the lowest in the world. Just before I came on air, I spoke to Eun-Ae Koo from the BBC Korean service, who has done a lot of research on this issue and began by asking her why women in the country are deciding not to have children. I have to say it's hard to come up with a single concrete answer. To name a few, there are so many reasons. Soaring housing prices, expensive

education, gender conflict, competitive workplace culture, social instability and more add up to this problem. So it's multifaceted. The government has put money into incentives to try and get people to have children. So tell me about what those incentives are. Yes, the government has been pouring billions of dollars to address this issue. Let's say if you were to have a child this year, you would be receiving approximately $750 every month for a year. And in addition to benefits such as a low interest loan to buy your own house and some part of tax exemption and more. Furthermore, the government even provides assistance for fertility treatments, including IVF. And is that having an impact? Because that's pretty much across the board,

isn't it? You get money to stay off and look after your child, you get low interest loans, you were mentioning earlier about housing being difficult and expensive. What impact is that having on the birth rate? Apparently, it's not having a great impact on booming up the birth rate in South Korea. However, low birth rate is not something new for South Korea because the country's birth rate has been declining for past several decades. The country's birth rate was 4.53 in 1970s and then made a sharp drop to 2.06 in 1983. And the reason for this was because of aggressive birth control policy by the government in the 60s and 70s, because at that time, South Korea just came out from Korean War, and they had to cope with this widespread poverty.

Since then, the birth rate has been falling gradually. As I noted earlier, the government scrapped the policy and began to pour money to boost up the fertility rate. But as you see from this, the recent numbers, it's not working so well. You mentioned gender conflict as one of the reasons as well. What is going on there? Is it just that young women want more out of their lives? They've got careers. They don't necessarily want to stop that, give it up to have children.

So we had this Korean War in 1950s. And ever since we had a very experienced, a very fast development, economic development over the last decades. However, what kind of falls behind is a change in perception. For example, like our parents' generation and grandparents' generation, they are still stuck with some old traditional thoughts, such as like women should focus more on house chores rather than working out in a company. And men should be responsible for all the economic burdens. And they should be the breadwinner for the whole family. But as you know, the society has been changing rapidly.

And there are so many women in South Korea who continue on working even if they get married and give birth to a child. However, they find it really stressful because they feel like support from the government and the workplace are not enough to balance out the work and life. Tell me also about something unique to your culture, women having to balance their work and life with the burden of their husband's family as well. There is an expectation, isn't there? Your in-laws, you actually kind of go and help them quite a lot, don't you, in South Korean culture? Yes, that's kind of influenced from old Confucianism in South Korea. Women are expected to take all the responsibility of house chores, not to satisfy not only their husbands and children, but also the mother-in-laws and ancestors.

Not ancestors of her own, but the husband's families. For example, when we are in a long holiday, such as Thanksgiving holiday, women go to visit mothers-in-law. They cook a lot of food and they have to work a lot because all the relatives and families gather around. And this is very stressful for many women. And that expectation is still there, is it? We can see from the numbers and statistics that young couples are traveling overseas during long holiday weekends, which means they are no longer visiting their parents' during this long vacation. So we are definitely seeing some changes. But still, as I noted earlier, the parents' generation still have that kind of expectation that continued on from the past. I know specifically when you look at individual companies as well, there's a construction

firm in South Korea that announced this month that they're going to pay more than $70,000 for each baby born to its employees. And that's setting a precedent. But do you think that will make a difference as well? Certain sectors saying, come and work for us, and we will incentivize you to not only have children, but stay with us. Some experts that I interviewed think this is a striking example that clearly shows the severity of this issue in South Korea. Of course, there could be other motives behind this decision, but the choice to invest this amount of money to employees

highlights the societal priority. You're painting a picture of society, of young women now of childbearing age in South Korea, of being caught between two very different generations. It sounds like a society that is moving towards a more modern idea of women and having families and staying in the workplace, but it hasn't quite got there yet. So women aren't feeling that support.

I know that you've spoken to a lot of women who have children and then have ended up leaving the workplace after a couple of years when they come back. Why is that, Yuna? I actually interviewed an employee who was granted with $70,000 from the company because she had a birth to a second child. So I was thinking maybe she will be super loyal to this company and she will be hoping to stay in this company. However, she also told me that, of course, this kind of financial benefit, she really appreciated and she has been receiving many kinds of financial support also from the government. However, she's saying that

this kind of support is focused on newborn child. So let's say if they enter elementary school and middle school, this kind of support goes away. As time passes, women have to cope with this work and life balance without government support. She said that she actually saw so many female employees eventually leaving the workplace three or four years after giving birth to a baby, because eventually they find it so stressful. And even if the company allows them to work more flexibly, they are sorry for their colleagues who are not married and do not have children. They have to take over her work. And what about the feminist movement in South Korea? How might that be playing into women choosing not to have children? There is the 4B movement, you know, in South Korea, how might that be playing into women choosing not to

have children? There is the 4B movement, isn't there? Yes. And this is really complex problem because there are some people who view feminism as a reason behind gender conflict, which eventually led to low birth problem in South Korea, including several politicians. They are saying radical feminism is growing hatred towards men among women, making them turn to 4B, which stands for no dating, no sex, no marriage, and no child rearing. However, some feminists and experts repute to this opinion because they think this is a sweeping generalization, and they think true focus of feminism lies on gender equality, including equal pay and anti-sexual abuse. So according to them, pointing out feminism as a cause of low birth trend will only worsen the situation. So what they're insisting is that the government should construct a true gender equal society in this

country. But constructing a true gender equal society in South Korea, it doesn't seem to have an easy answer because South Korea is in a sort of unique situation. It's one of a few countries where men are conscripted to army during their 20s for about a year and a half, which many men consider highly unequal, thinking not only women in this country, but men are also victims of gender discrimination. Therefore, a large percentage of young men has been showing negative perception towards feminism, and this is worsening gender conflict in this society. Eun-Akoo there from the BBC Korean service on the falling birth rate in South Korea. Thank you so much for everybody who's got in touch with Women's Hour today on

all manner of topics. We've had a massive reaction to our conversation between three men of different generations on their porn use. We'll be returning to this topic next week. So thank you for all your contributions. It has given us food for thought. On diaries as well, after Sarah Griswood visited us here in the studio with her amazing new compilation of women's diaries from over four centuries. This, my mother died just over five weeks ago. Reading her intermittent diary entries has given me a huge insight into her life and into my own. She was a very guarded person due to traumas early in her life. So this insight feels like a gift that will help with the impact of intergenerational trauma for me and my children. It is an unexpected gift, says this

anonymous texter. Thanks for getting in touch. Who is this? No name. I've kept a diary since receiving one for my eighth birthday, keeping up with it with varying degrees of regularity. I'm now 31 and getting married to the person I've been dating since I was 16. And I plan on sharing some of the old entries about him, both funny and sappy at our wedding. And on a digital app, I shout, I scream, I complain, I moan and voice my unhappiness into a voice recording, letting all my deep seated, unprocessed emotions up and out. This has saved my mental well-being and I feel everyone should have access to this and encourage people to do this daily. Thank you so much for all of your comments on diary keeping.

Now, let's move on to talk about bum pads. Have you ever asked yourself, does my bum look big in this? Well, apparently, according to M&S, this question is no longer a bad thing. In fact, we should be aiming for it. They've taken big knickers to a whole new level, launching a new form of shapewear with bum padding, adding extra volume and curvature to your derriere. Anna Murphy is the Times' fashion director. She tried out a very similar pair and Anna joins me now. Welcome, Anna. Hello. Wow. So bum knickers, effectively, what were they? How did they enhance your derriere? How do they do it? The top line is they are very,

very peculiar. They are the largest pants one has ever come across in the sort of straightforward sense. There's just a lot of them. They're a bit like cycling shorts in terms of dimensions, but that's nothing. The really big bit of them is that they are, as you suggest, designed to increase your bum, make you bigger. They've got padding. They're sort of like the Wonder Bra of knickers. And it's just a very, very strange experience because you put them on, they feel odd, obviously. I mean, the ones that I've worn aren't by M&S because they weren't ready yet, but it was for a shoot that I did a few weeks ago. They feel odd, but also looking in the mirror, it's almost this sort of hall of mirrors thing.

Of course, you're not quite yourself. You've suddenly got someone else's figure. So it's a bit without being too pretentious. It's a bit of an existential experience. What do they enhance with? Because I do remember the Wonder Bras. I had some myself and they put the old chicken fillets in there that would often fly out at inopportune moments. What is enhancing here?

Yeah, it depends on which of the bum enhancing pants you go for. Some sort of foam or silicone is the sort of typical route. And what M&S is doing in launching their pair is very much following on from brands like Skims, which is a Kim Kardashian brand, which has built its success on, you know, Kim Kardashian's very large bottom and other people wanting to have Kim Kardashian's very large bottom. And it's an interesting one. I'm 52. And, you know, for decades, I think my generation has very much had that messaging, you know, that extremely annoying, boring messaging, you know, skinny is best. So to actually have a different ideal put forward, you know, it really is quite sort of challenging in a way. What I find a bit sad is what could be this moment of amazing sort of let's accept our curves, let's embrace our curves, empowerment,

et cetera, is actually yet another example of a sort of bodily ideal being held up that may or may not bear any relation to who you as an individual actually are physically. Yes, so it's another enhancement rather than just an embracing of whatever your natural shape is. Yeah, and I mean, the big pant side of it is absolutely the most benign element. You know, there's also huge, huge increases in often extremely dangerous procedures, you know, surgical procedures to get a sort of bigger bum. So, yeah, it's sort of a disguised version of what we women have been subjected to for decades, I think. And, you know, it goes back further than that you know we look back in sort of horror at the idea of the kind of big hoop skirts that stopped you being able to sit down and stopped you being able to cycle and things in the Victorian era but actually here we are you're doing a version of the same thing in a funny way. How did it feel to wear was it comfortable? Very very strange

because I mean the pair that I wore the the kind of chicken fillety aspect although they were sort of bigger than chicken fillets it was more I was sort of thinking at the time what are these ostrich fillets emu fillets they were it was a very large fillet suffice it to say and they did sort of have the capacity to sort of shift around a bit um yeah and I you know I I'm all for body positivity I'm all for positivity pertaining to being a woman in all regards. And my new book, Destination Fabulous, is about positive aging, and that is very much about accepting your body. As I say, I think this, in a slightly depressing way,

is yet another example of us not accepting our body. On a sliding scale of less depressing, though, rather than go in for surgical bum yeah surely this has got to be positive take the big cans yeah yeah but i was you know as someone of the wonder broad generation i was also chortling to myself because of course there was always you know there's that moment in bridget jones in the film when when you know a date that that sort of is thrown at her when she suddenly realizes that to her horror that she has to reveal her big pants to daniel cleaver you know i i definitely remember going through wonder bra versions of similar and what happens with this new generation of big pants in which

not only are they very very large but you know your your partner is suddenly sees that your body there's no relation to the body uh you thought you had so i can just imagine some quite mortifying you know early dating scenarios in which yes your your emu fillets are revealed to your new partner yes the christmas turkey fillets are on the bedroom floor um the thing is you'd want to be going for kim kardashian i i would worry that you'd end up looking like homer simpson i mean how can you can you actually choose the size of it? Can you choose the size of the inserts? You can take bits in and out depending on the style. I mean, absolutely. And in fact, one of the interesting things is these pants, they're part of Marks and Spencer's new season

launch, as they call it. And they are also launching lots of other things that we're more likely to associate with M&S, like very nice blazers and things. But on the imagery that they showed of models wearing their clothes, there was no one, you know, they were all the normal sort of, sorry to say it, but boringly ubiquitous skinny models. And then there was this sort of other, almost like this Kardashian add-on, which was big pant land. So there was no sign of anyone in a nice M&S summer dress wearing the big pants, let's put it that way.

Yes, so we don't know what it's going to do to the lines. And I know Paris Fashion Week, just briefly, Anna, has just finished. Still a long way to go when it comes to curves on the runway, haven't we? Absolutely. I mean, there's been such a shift and a long overdue one in terms of ethnic diversity on the catwalks,

which is just a joy to see. But we are still very much in this zone where most models, there are a few exceptions, but very few tend to be A, very thin and B, very young. And we've just got to move on from that. You know, fashion is such a funny industry because it presents itself as very future facing, but it's also very conservative, the small C, and we really need to change the dial. And actually, when you do see larger models on the catwalk, they tend to be much larger.

You know, where are the size 12s and 14s? Absolutely. Anna, we will have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. Anna Murphy, Times Fashion Director. That is Woman's Hour. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening.

That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Forgive us, listeners, for we have sinned. And we want to know why. I'm Becky Ripley. Join us again next time. Forgive us listeners for we have sinned. And we want to know why. I'm Becky Ripley. And I'm Sophie Ward. And we're here to tell you about our new podcast series Seven Deadly Psychologies. Now available on Seriously from BBC Radio 4.

So, ready? Born ready. Where we take a cold hard look at the psychology behind each of the seven deadly sins. We shouldn't discard them. We should ask ourselves what they mean. It's this idea that if you give in to your lusts, that you are animal-like. We have to let our minds have time to free wheel. Finding empathy is probably the best tool to manage anger.

To hear the whole series, just search Seven Deadly Psychologies on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

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