Woman's Hour - Menopause and ADHD, Flatpack World Champion, Women and Crime

Episode Date: May 15, 2026

Menopause can be challenging for many women, but for those with ADHD, the experience can often feel like life is completely unravelling. For some women in their 40s, 50s and 60s it can also be the first time they realise they may have ADHD, as fluctuating hormones amplify their challenges with sleep, mood, attention and overwhelm. GP and Menopause expert Dr Helen Wall joins Anita to talk about her new book Menopause and ADHD, which aims to debunk some of the myths and support women navigating the combination.A "cunning" and "manipulative" former imam in east London has been given a life sentence with a minimum prison term of 20 years for a series of sexual attacks on women and girls as young as 12. Abdul Halim Khan, 54, was described as having abused the trust and authority that came with his position to carry out attacks against seven victims from the local Muslim community between 2005 and 2014. Presenter Anita Rani is joined by BBC Religion editor, Aleem Maqbool, and Aisha K Gill, a professor of criminology at the University of Bristol and expert witness in the case. Love it or dread it, flat-pack furniture tests us all. But for Hayley McAuley from Wigan, it’s a sport - she’s just defended her title as Flatpack World Champion and tells presenter Anita Rani how she did it.The Government wants to change how women are sentenced, with new courts designed to keep them out of prison and stop them reoffending. Instead, women must commit to change and have regular check ins with a judge. They are called intensive supervision courts and the first is already running in Birmingham, now ministers want to roll them out more widely. We hear from Joy Doal of the women's centre Anawim, who helped set up the pilot, and criminologist Professor Simon Pemberton on whether they really work.We meet the award-winning farmer running free workshops where food starts in the field, not a packet. Milly Fyfe has just been named Farming Woman of the Year at the National Women in Agriculture Awards. Her business, Countryside Kitchen, provides free workshops to show children how to shake cream to turn it into butter and teaches them exactly where their burgers and chicken nuggets come from.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. The newly crowned farming woman of the year. Millie Fife is here. Passion, her passion is connecting us to our food through farming. So today we'll be heading back to the land. A three-year pilot scheme designed to prevent women from re-offending by keeping them in the community rather than putting them in prison

is now going to be expanded by the Ministry of Justice. We'll be hearing more. navigating menopause can be tough. Throw into the mix, ADHD, and it can feel like a complete unravelling if you even know your neurodivergent in the first place. Dr. Helen Wall, a GP and menopause expert, has written a book to aid women going through this.

She'll be here, and if you have any questions, then please send them our way, and I will put them to Helen during the program, the text number 84844. And how's the DIY situation in your home, or specifically building flat pack furniture. Well, we're going to be advised by the best of the best. The world flat pack champion, Haley McCauley, has defended her title

and she's going to be talking to us here on Woman's Hour. But I also want to know about you and your own DIY triumphs, maybe woes. Are you a bit nifty with an Alan Key? Are you a mean machine with an electric drill? If I said to you, talks, hex, posy-driv and Phillips, Do you think I'm talking about a Swedish rock band? Have you bashed holes where you shouldn't have? Made sloping shelves?

Guilty. Nearly divorced over wallpapering. Or do you just say no to DIY? Well, whatever your stories, please, I would like to hear them this morning. Get it off your chest at the text number 84844. You can also email us by going to our website. And the WhatsApp number is 0300-100-444. The text number once again, 84844.

But first, A former Imam in East London, who a judge has described as cunning and manipulative, has been given a life sentence with a minimum prison term of 20 years for a series of sexual attacks on women and girls as young as 12. 54-year-old Abdul Halim Khan was described as having abused the trust and authority that came with his position to carry out attacks against seven victims from the local Muslim community between 2005 and 2014. In February, Khan was found guilty of 21 counts of rape, sexual assault, and child sexual offences against victims at what were described as isolated places, including flats and hidden locations. Sentencing him, Judge Leslie Cuthbert, said Khan's actions were a deliberate distortion of the Muslim faith. Alim Mughal, the BBC's religion editor, was in court and is with me now. And I should say some of the details we're about to hear are quite upsetting. Good morning, Alim. Can you start by explaining who Abdul Halim Khan was and what the jury found him guilty of?

Yes, good morning, Anita. And you're right in saying that some of the details that were described in court were particularly upsetting. A lot of the victims involved were there, and the judge in a lot of cases was talking directly to them, talking about their courage in coming forward. But Abdul Halim Khan, now 54, was an imam who came over from India, although was very much sort of rooted in the Bangladeshi Muslim community in East London. That's where he gained trust. That's where in many cases he was revered as an imam. And he was in his early 30s when this abuse started, as you say, in 2005. And it was women and girls, as you say, as young as 12. Three of the victims actually were teenage girls. And as you say, he isolated them and carried out his sexual assaults,

in some cases rapes in cars or in flats. And the judge in his sentencing remarks, was saying that he had deliberately targeted this community for several reasons. Because he had such a high standing there, it was clear that he felt he would never get caught or his victims wouldn't be believed. And in fact, even now, ahead of the sentencing, some members of the community had written letters of support for Abdul Halim Khan. Actually, the judge said that was, in fact, just more illustration of how duplicitous he was.

But he also targeted women in that community, the judge said, for other reasons, because there is, of course, in many communities, a huge stigma attached to sexual violence, but particularly in this community. And so there might be less likelihood of women coming forward. And then also, as you described in the, introduction, the judge also talked about this deliberate distortion of the Muslim faith.

So in some cases, he threatened the, well, in a lot of the cases, he threatened the women and girls by saying that somehow death even or harm would come to them or family members if they ever spoke out. But he also threatened, for example, to. reveal things about their backgrounds, like some of the girls had boyfriends, and he said that if they revealed anything, that he would reveal those things. But he also did something else which was sort of unique to this case as opposed to sort of other cases I've covered recently of other leaders of other faiths who obviously used that protection of how they're revered in the community. because he had this, as I say, deliberate distortion of the Muslim faith by talking about jinns or evil spirits, which is something that's mentioned in the Quran, but as the judge said, it was distorted in this particular case. So he said variously that either some of the victims had sort of these evil spirits in them and he needed to cure them,

or that when he carried out his attacks, he had been sort of possessed by these evil spirits. How did he operate? So he would gain the trust in some cases of the parents and then target the daughters of those parents. In some cases, in one particular case, he actually abused both a mother and a daughter, and they weren't aware that they were both being sexually assaulted by the same man until the case came forward. Eventually, one of the girls spoke to a school therapist, and that's how this all unraveled. The police visited the school the next day, spoke to the girl, and then this started in 2018. He was finally charged in 2023.

But we spoke to some of the victims. and one of them we're calling Aria. She doesn't want to have her real name or her real voice used. And she described how he took her in his car and then assaulted her. I had my eyes closed and he said things like there's going to be knocking on the car window. And I did hear those knocks, but I was terrified. I genuinely believed that he had supernobes. powers and that if I spoke about it to anyone afterwards, something really bad would happen to me and my family.

I mean, yes, please carry on. Yeah, so there you hear that dimension of this case where he's invoking the supernatural. And for young girls or those who believe in the faith as well, you know, for him saying that somehow only he could sort of cure them, exercise. them of these spirits in them or that, and then following that by saying that he was somehow possessed by these evil spirits and that's why these assaults took place. Although he still, even though he was found by unanimous verdict by a jury as having carried out all of these offences, he still denies any of this happened and that the judge said made it all the more awful.

Alim, thank you very much for that. Well, to explore, that was, I should say, Alim McBul, the BBC's religion editor who was in court. To explore the cultural context of this case some more, I'm joined by Aisha K. Gill, a professor of criminology at the University of Bristol, and an expert prosecution witness who actually gave evidence in this case. Isha, welcome to Woman's Hour. It's so multi-layered, isn't it? because there's culture, there's religion and superstitioners we've just heard from Alim there. So I guess how does an imam like Abdul Halim Khan

gain such deep trust within this community? Thank you for speaking to this really critical case. I think it's really important that we start by acknowledging the courage of the women, seven women victims in this case, coming forward, and which was absolutely essential in achieving, justice and their accounts were central to the prosecution. In terms of addressing the multi-layered aspect, I think there's that this Imam, and you know, he denigrates the name of an Imam because in Islam, you know, Islam does not endorse the

manipulation or exploitation of individuals through claims of spiritual authority, gin possession or black magic. And it, you know, indeed, practice standing. direct opposition to the foundational aspects of Islamic faith. This individual systematically exploited his position of trust and authority. And Anita deeply held religious cultural beliefs to manipulate these victims. And as your BBC reporter just said that three of these young girls were teenagers. So, you know, he used the pretext of his supernatural powers, his being a man of the cloth, a very powerful perpetrator to do harm. And I think what was really shocking about this case is that the victims felt compelled to keep what they had been done to them,

hidden from their families and friends for fearing that disclosure would actually itself trigger the very harm that they had been threatened with. And I think it's really important for your listeners to know that this was abuse of faith, not an expression of it. This individual weaponised spiritual fear to silence these individuals. And the disclosure of rape itself was treated as a source of shame rather than attention being directed towards the perpetrators. So those points in terms of the multilead, the issue around the role of the Imam,

issue around trust. Trust was denigrated in this context, you know, in the way this individual played on the dynamics, intersectional dynamics of shame, honour, and the abuse of a religious authority to actually create the conditions in which this perpetrator got away with these heinous crimes. And I think what's really, really appalling as well, and we, you know, there were letters of character in court. I mean, those bystanders, their complicity in silence, feeds into these very issues around enabling abusers to hide in plain sight in religious institutions and in our communities.

Well, I mean, as Alim said, he was revered in the community. Yes. And you mentioned this word trust. Could you kind of explain a bit more? and then those letters of support for him from within the community, that what where this, why this, and just how much access that gave him because so much trust is put in him. Well, an imam is revered in many communities.

They are seen as, you know, scholarly. They are seen as they offer social and spiritual guidance. And their role is pastoral care, social justice. leadership and education. So that role and particularly anchored in the guidance of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet, please be upon him, you know, he he used that in a way to to lock individuals into fear, into violence that consequently victims internalize that shame. And obviously, you know, when we talk about sexual, violence in our communities.

This elevated that silence, trauma, suicide, and also locked in all this aspect when you have powerful perpetrators is how honour and shame regulate silence in these communities because these very women are supposed to, in our communities, for example, so much emphasis and currency is given to sexual modesty and reputation of the wider family. and this perpetrator weaponised that so that these individuals were not believed they were ostracized, they were blamed

and even where there was disclosure to family members family members said no possibly they didn't believe them because he's a religious authority surely you must have done something and I think these kind of scripts in our communities in particular at this time need to be continuously flipped because this status, this credibility, this level of harm that this individual committed was absolutely heinous.

Aisha K. Gail, Professor of Criminology at Bristol University, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning on the program. We also heard from BBC Religion editor Alie McBul, and I have to say if you've been affected by anything you hear in today's program, then please go to BBC's Actionline website where you'll find links to support services. 84844 is the text number. Now, navigating menopause can be a challenge for many women. But for those with ADHD, the experience can often feel like life is completely unravelling. For some women in their 40s, 50s and 60s, it can also be the first time they even realize

they may have ADHD as fluctuating hormones turn up the volume on. issues with sleep, mood, attention and overwhelm. Well, joining me in the studio is a GP and menopause expert, Dr Helen Wall, who's exploring this in her new book, Menopause and ADHD, How to Navigate, hormone flux and neurodivergence. Welcome to Women's Hour, Helen. Thank you. Why did you want to write the book? If I'm being really honest, I'm just really frustrated and quite angry about the fact that women are being missed repeatedly, misdiagnosed, mis-labelled, mis-supported, and it just, you know, I'm quite passionate women's health advocate anyway. And I was seeing these women in my menopause clinic and, yeah, it just hit

a nerve really. Well, we'll get to kind of how you've formatted the book because you have made it very digestible, particularly for people, I suppose, who need the book in the first place. But as I said, you run a menopause clinic. So what have women been telling you? And what have you noticed thereabout when menopause and ADHD collide? Well, many, many women that I see are not diagnosed with ADHD and this is not about trying to get every woman diagnosed with ADHD. It's about looking at the women who are completely and utterly burnt out and unraveling at this point in life. Many of them come and they, it's more than just perimenopause or menopause. We know that women in perimenopause and menopause can have brain fog, can struggle with

memory can struggle with functioning like they did before, with their self-esteem and their emotional regulation. But some of the women I was seeing had had this repeatedly throughout their lives. This was not a perimenopause menopause issue. This was an unmasking almost of issues that had just gone under the radar slightly for periods of their life before. How can you tell which is which? Because as you said, there's an overlap, isn't there, a symptoms? There's a huge overlap and it makes it really difficult and I get asked this question a lot. For me it's about listening to the woman about what's gone before

perimenopause. So most of the women I see who are in this space they say things like I've always felt like things have been more difficult for me I've just never really known why. I've always had to work really hard just to

stand still. My emotional regulation has always been tricky or difficult. It's impacted relationships. It's impacted work, it's impacted jobs, you know, and if you really listen to the women, this is not just something that happens in perimenopause, but it has often been very much hidden because women are great at masking and we're great at getting on with things. Can we talk about how it presents differently in men and women, if at all it does? So how, and obviously, in women in particular.

So I think we have to be really clear that these are generalisations, you know, this can happen in any way, shape or form to boys or girls, men or women. But the classic ADHD perspective is someone who's quite disruptive, a child who might be disrupted in the classroom, having meltdowns, struggling to get on in society. And I think that's still carried in quite a lot of my colleagues in medicine, that ADHD is a boy problem, it's a hyperactive problem. We know that in girls, this is not always the case. In fact, girls, much more likely to present with hidden symptoms, if you like, they're more likely to have inattention, so struggling to focus, to task orientate, to move between one task to another, to get started on a task. They're also

often very likely to have some form of emotional regulation difficulty or difference, as I prefer to call it, to those who have a neurotypical brain. And we know that there are key things in the brain, key structural differences in the brain, key differences in how chemical messengers move and processing information in the brain that makes that happen. So this is not just a trend. We've got actual scientific evidence for this. The other issue with girls is that they become very good at fitting into society from a young age. So it's almost like societally accepted that boys will perhaps climb on things and be more disruptive. But girls are very often told to sit down, be quiet, read a book. You know, people please. So a lot of the women I've seen have grown up being

people pleasers, perfectionists, overcompensating, wanting to do the best, flying high. Many of them have had great careers. They've been to university, they've worked their way up the ranks in great jobs. They've been very successful in every way, shape or form. So that's another myth, I think, that is quite florid amongst the medical community. That to have ADHD, you have to have had a disruptive life. You have to have perhaps been in trouble with the police, had substance misuse, you know, not being able to get yourself together when actually, you know, some of the most successful women I've met have run really successful businesses, had great jobs, had, you know, juggled many, many things.

So what happens then during menopause and you use the word masking, which we have talked about on Woman's Hour before, but I think just to remind people like this, what happens with this unraveling, as I described it? So because women's symptoms are often internalised, there are. but, you know, they're running a script in their head. They're trying to overcompensate just to stand still often. It's not seen. So we call that masking, and it's what I like to refer to as the scaffolding that women put in.

They put in coping strategies because that's what women are good at doing. And they go through life with this, and things might feel more difficult, but they manage. And then what happens is you get to a period of their life where they have hormonal flux. So the hormones start to change. And I think we're really, really bad in medicine at talking about the effect of women's sex hormones on our female brain. It's something I'm very, very passionate about. We talk about sex hormones in terms of periods, reproduction, fertility. How often do we talk about the fact that our sex hormones hugely impact our brain? And I'll tell you why they impact the brain. They impact the chemical

messengers in our brain. So we have chemical messengers. We've got dopamine, we've got serotonin, adrenaline, gabber, glutamate, you know, there's all sorts of messengers there. And in somebody with ADHD, we already know that the dopamine signaling pathways are different. We used to say people with ADHD don't have enough dopamine. I think that's quite outdated now. What we know now is they do have dopamine, but the receptors might not receive the dopamine in the brain or they might not fire it out at the right times, etc. So effectively it looks like a lack of dopamine.

And they have a difficulty in signaling of all the other chemical messages as well, a difference in that. So in perimenopause, when our hormones become very erratic, and that's what happens in perimenopause, your estrogen and progesterone levels, they rise and fall. It's very unpredictable. The brain doesn't know from one minute to the next, often what's going to happen. Estrogen is needed to stabilise those chemical messengers and help boost, in the simplest terms, the chemical messengers. So when that starts to go peatong in menopause, and it doesn't just happen in menopause or perimenopause, it can happen after you've had a baby, it can happen in pregnancy, it can happen.

happen in puberty, you know, at any time of hormonal flux, my book talks about the science behind what happens to the brain. Yeah. And that's what happens. Those chemical pathways go AWOL. What role can HRT play? So HRT can play, you know, a great role in stabilising our hormones. And it is the number one, it's the number one option for menopause in any of the guidelines, whether you're looking at the American guidelines or British guidelines. And of course, Because some women choose not to take it. But absolutely. I was just going to say some women can't have HRT.

Some women choose not to have HRT. Absolutely fine. It can stabilize those fluctuations that you're having. So if you're somebody who's had ADHD or your life, as you will have had, but with your hip perimenopause and then everything just becomes so much harder, HRT can help to almost reverse that back a little bit. But it's worth saying that women with neurodivergence often have differences, differences again in how they process hormones

so it can be even more challenging. If you remember to take them in the first place. If you remember to take them. So what can, like, just describe, like, when you've got menopause happening, your hormones are everywhere, you're possibly realizing, or how do you realize, you know, whether it's burnout, or just your hormones fluctuating or ADHD or ADHD. And how can it, how can women feel in those moments?

the women with ADHD? Yeah, so I think, you know, the women, many of the women, and I get contacted a lot on my social media from women who are really, really struggling with this, as well as the women I see in practice, and they just feel totally burnt out. You know, it's just complete and utter overwhelm. And we know that ADHD brains are very capable of becoming overwhelmed

because of the differences in the chemical messengers and the structural differences in the brain. So they just completely burn out, And that means they struggle to work, they struggle to maintain relationships. And it's really, really sad to see. We've got a couple of messages coming in. I'm keen to kind of read them out. One of them is actually a question for you.

It's, they've not put the name, but they've said, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD at 53 after a complete exec function breakdown. My brain effectively blue-screened. My career trajectory has suffered. Can you suggest strategies to rebuild confidence to enable me to move forward? I fear future crashes. And also we've talked about HRT. I guess I'm keen to understand what else you can do in your life that can help you cope,

particularly if you don't want to take HRT or you don't. Absolutely. And I think it's a really great question. And my book focuses a lot on other things you can do. It's not all about medication. As we've already said, some women can't or don't want to take HRT. Women might go for stimulant medication with ADHD, but that is incredibly hard to access in the NHS currently.

if you can get a diagnosis in the first place. So, you know, there's the tips and tricks, really. There's several layers to this. So there's one about just making sure that you are making yourself the best version of yourself, which is really hard to do with ADHD and perimenopause. But, you know, eating well, my book talks about making sure you get omega-3. They're sort of fatty acids, which are really good at protecting the brain and the nervous system, reducing inflammation, vitamin D, calcium.

You know, there's all sorts of strategies in there for how you can eat well. I think the gut microbiome can also play a part. So that's sort of a bit of another fashionable term at the minute. But we know that our... Your gut's health. Yeah, your gut health, basically. And we know that there's something called the estroboloam now, which helps cycle your estrogen.

So if your gut health's poor and we're giving you HRT, it may not work as well. So there's all sorts of layers to that as well. And then my book talks about loads of different practical strategies you can use to get the best from your ADHD brain. You mentioned yourself, you know, this is quite controversial, even amongst your peers,

to be talking about this. And for women, you know, they could be dismissed by their health professionals, sometimes by friends and family. So how can you navigate this space? It's part of, that's a huge part of the reason why I wrote the book, because the women I've seen,

the women I've heard from are being dismissed on a daily basis. And many women are fearful to go and broach this with their GP because they're worried they're going to be, you know, told it's nothing and to get on with it. And that's something that I'm getting very irritated about. I think, you know, the tips from me are to do your research. There's a screening questionnaire that you can access freely.

It's available on the ADHD UK website. It's a very crude measure. It doesn't mean you have or you haven't got ADHD. The ADHD assessment is a three-hour-long process. Write it down because I know when you get into your GP, you're going to just forget everything and you're going to probably be a bit panicked. Take someone with you that knows you and think about going back to childhood because if you go in and just say, you know, I've hit perimenopause and my brain doesn't work, then we're going to

assume it's hormones. Take it back to child. Think about the cost to you of all the masking that you've done because people will think you've been fine, but there's always a cost to pay. You know, the relationships you've lost, the jobs that you haven't got on with, the things that have happened, the things that you now are starting to realize from the research that you've done, weren't just you been a failure? We've run out of time. I could talk. I'm sure lots of our listeners will keep going. But I want to thank you. I'm going to read out these two messages as well. Someone has said here, I lost three years of my early 50s, extremely ill, totally burned out after constantly being sidelined by GPs. I was told it was the return of my chronic fatigue despite totally different

symptoms. It was three years hard recovery discovering what worked for me. H.R.T was an important part of that. ADHD diagnosis eventually at 58. And another one, saying Dr Helen Wall just spoke out just what I was feeling. I was unmassed and left my job as a successful law lecturer when menopoles collided with undiagnosed ADHD. It was an awful time. I hit rock bottom. Now I'm still undiagnosed, but I feel more seen than ever before.

I learned so much more. So thank you for coming in to speak to us. That was Dr. Helen Wall. And your book, Menopause and ADHD, came out yesterday. Yeah, came out yesterday. Thank you. 8484. for is the text number. Keep them coming in. I'm going to read out some of your DIY messages

in a moment because what is your approach when it comes to flat pack furniture? Do you love it or absolutely dread it? Are you a go-it-alone type or do you rope in your partner and brace for the inevitable rouse over missing screws or confusing instructions? Well, my next guest has turned it into an heart form. Haley McCauley from Wiggan has just defended her title as flat-pack world champion she joins me now. I felt like I needed to give you a massive fanfare of some kind, Haley. Congratulations. Oh, thank you very much.

Talk us through the win. How did it happen? Oh, wow. Well, I didn't even know it was a thing. The last year, which I had my own business building flat pack on the days off that I'm not in the warehouse. So I get a photo message saying, there's a world flatpack championship at Grand Design's Live. I said no there's not

Anyway I got it applied for And they got back to me the day after So the first The first round It was building a Billy Buckcase And there were two groups of four In the semi-final And then in the final

It was a two-draw side unit Which last year I built in 9 minute 33 Yeah This year I smashed my record And did it in 820 Have you been practising in between Actually no

Because since doing this that last year I've only built one side side unit the exact same. So no. Amazing. Let's take it back. When did your love of flat packs begin? When did you realise you had a talent? You know, well, I've been

doing like bits on and off since I was like young, but it was 20, 23 when I bought a Frido wardrobe and a dressing table would add lots to it. And I put it on my socials when I built it. And then I had a few people say, oh my God, I could do with you. Come at my, man. I've got a set of drawers there I've had in my

kitchen for two years. So I thought, well, there could be something here. So I started my business in 2024. And then it's just going from strength to strength at the minute. Brilliant. But you were really young when you helped your dad out. How old were you? Well, he said, I think he was about 10 early. He said, and I was stressing out in, he said, he said, I was playing out. He was building the wardrobe. And I'd just come in the house and I said to him, that's a wrong way that. He's like, bugger off and get it, you know, stressed out.

He said, but you was right and you would just come in and you just look, that's wrong, that. I just want to apologise if anyone was offended by any language there. Sorry. Don't worry, it's okay, it's okay. Now, flat pack furniture assembling, you know, it does have a reputation, can cause arguments. Do you think

it's justified? Or, do you know what? I can't build with my partner. It goes mad because I won't use the instructions. So come on then, you don't use the instructions. Whilst we've got you, because I think we should all be able to do a bit of building work if we need to, right?

We should all be able to do it. And it's kind of modern living now. And it does stress people out. So give us some tips. Where do we begin? Do you just start? Or is there a technique? See, with me, because I've been doing it quite a while now, I just empty the box and

get on with it. but if it was someone who was just building, you know, say, obviously, weekends coming and people aren't doing home improvements, I would suggest just get everything out, make sure all your panels and everything's there, and separate all your screws, and just read your instructions carefully

and don't do anything until you're 100% certain that that's where it goes, because it could cost you to ask. Yes, so do it all, read the instructions fully. What if, okay, and I don't know, maybe this is connected to the previous item, what if you just can't? not read the instructions.

Is there a simple, I mean, can we just watch you do it and copy you? Well, I, that's, I'm in the process of setting up my own YouTube channel. So at the minute I've not got it yet, but I am going to be doing it and then I'm going to like share it about because I do find that obviously I get, some people are just not really into the flat pack and it is heard,

you know, for some people. So I'm looking at doing it where I simplify the instructions. and obviously not 100 miles an hour. Haley, you'd be doing a national service. That would be very, very useful. Do you think women are encouraged to get stuck into DIY? Well, I want to do this for women. I want to empower more women to do what I do.

I'm also looking into running a workshop once a month as well where I have my own brand of tools and I get people. Obviously, they bring their own stuff what service they've had there for two years if they can fit it in their vehicles. And they come down to this place and I help them build their own things. Yes. I would like that personally.

Very good. What did you win? What did you win for retaining your title? What do you get, apart from the glory and getting to chat to Woman's Hour? Well, I've got a collection going out. I've got two Golden Allen keys. Where did you keep them?

Well, I display them on my mirror in my living room, but I'm going for a third of next year. Has there ever been an item where even you've been, no, enough? Or actually two questions. And is it just me or can they come with the wrong screws and not enough? Yeah, they can come with broken panels. I actually did a shed a couple of weeks ago and the instructions was wrong for the roof. So I was like, I'm looking and I'm thinking, that's not right that. That's definitely not right.

Anyway, I went with my gut at the end and I managed to do it. But six hours later and it was finished. Six hours. Come on, that must have even tested you. Yeah, well, I was on the verge of crying. But I didn't let it beat me. And I think that's it. That's it.

You persisted and you did it. Even if it did take the world champion six hours. And I bet it's beautiful. It was over a thousand screws because it was like a metal shed So yeah I think I spent an hour picking them all up Just the thought of a thousand screws

Has broken me into a sweat But Haley, thank you so much We look forward to being able to watch you Showing us how to do it Thank you Thank you very much Flatpack World Champion Congratulations again

I'm going to read out some of your DIY messages DIY I'm very practical I've built my own garden studio And do all the home maintenance When my son was about five, he came to find me and asked if Daddy was allowed to touch the power tools like it. My first job at 19 was writing and illustrating instruction leaflets for a company that made flat pack furniture for Woolworths. Of the dozens of complaints we received in the two years I worked there happened because the customers did not read the instructions. And that's from Colin.

He says, I'm in Mama 60s and a long-term listener and admirer of the program. We like that, Colin. We like that. And another one here, I inherited my dad's toolbox after he died. I'm a dab hand at sanding down furniture, varnishing and painting, fixing small things, hanging doors, unblocking drains and putting flat packs together. I live on my own and I'm happy to do it. It's quite zen-like doing it and seeing the results of your labour.

However, as I'm tiny, I do need a hand with manhandling large heavy items around the house. I normally like my friend Andy around for a bit of heavy lifting and bribe him with a gin. Michelle, this just sounds dreamy. handy andy, brilliant. 844. Keep your DIY stories coming in. I look forward to reading more out. Now looking ahead to the spring bank holiday, we're going to take a break from business as usual, put our head in the clouds and go in search of wonder. So we want to know where do you find wonder? What makes you go, wow, maybe it's music or nature or both, a sporting triumph or a recovery after a long illness perhaps? And crucially, how do you hang on?

to that feeling. So share your awe-inspiring moments with us, whether big or small and get in touch in the usual way. Email us via our website or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, the government has said it wants to roll out innovative new courts designed to keep women from re-offending. Instead of a prison sentence, the women stay in the community but commit to changing their behaviour, addressing issues such as addiction or trauma and having regular check-ins with a judge. They're called intensive supervision courts and the first one has been running a pilot for three years in Birmingham.

Well, now the Ministry of Justice says it's committed to setting up more and is currently looking at bids as part of its new strategy to keep women out of life of crime. Well, I'm joined by Joy Dole, chief executive of Anowen, Birmingham's Centre for Women

whose organisation was instrumental in setting up the pilot court and Professor Simon Pemberton is from the Women, Crime and Justice Research Group at the University of Birmingham. Simon and Joy, welcome. Joy, I'm going to come to you first. Can you talk us through how this court operates and what its aim is? Yes. Well, as you said, its aim is to keep women out of prison.

The differences where the speedy justice is what it says on the tin was much quicker. So this means that the case is adjourned for a full pre-sentence report. So we have the women's risk needs assessment, which Simon will talk. about in a minute. But we use that along with our caseworker and the probation officer and the woman. So it's a three-way meeting in the Women's Centre. So she talks about everything that has gone on in her life. The series of questions, they're very long. And it's a very in-depth assessment. So it looks into the trauma, the things that have led to the offence, all the things that are factors in her life, her needs, but also her strength.

So what's really great is that feeds into the pre-sentence report, which means that the judge then has a really comprehensive idea of what's going on in that woman's life in order to tailor the order to the woman's offence. So things like mental health treatment requirements, alcohol, drug and drug treatment requirements, are used a lot more in this court. So it's bespoke to her. It is very intensive. what it says on the tin. It's not an easy option at all. And it is a two-year order. So it's quite a

commitment for the woman. And she has a lot of appointments to deal with in those two years between probation, mental health and all the other services that are involved in her life. But she has the opportunity to turn her life around and stay in the community. I'm going to bring Simon in because Simon, you were involved in helping set up the court. So why is it important? Why did you? do you think it was important? Well, it's important because we have an issue in this country in relation to short sentences,

and they use particularly for women who have offended. And if we hold in mind that for 63% of women who enter prison, they've committed a non-violent offence. So really a lot of the kind of criminal harm that we're talking about here is relatively minor. And the reality is that since the... the 1990s in this country, we've been incredibly reliant on short sentences, and they've doubled since the mid-90s, whilst community sentences have halved since 2010. So the reality is,

is that we have been on a trend where we've used short sentences. And the problem with that, particularly for women, disproportionately for women, is that 64% of women who serve a sentence of 12 months or less will re-offend within one year. So prison in that regard is incredibly ineffective and is costly. So really in terms of these courts, really what we're looking at is a situation where the courts offer a means to begin to address some of the issues that bring the women to the door of the criminal justice system in the first place without the harms and the costs of prison.

Sure. Well, let's hear from someone who, has experienced this court directly. Anne, that's not her real name, injured someone in an accident whilst driving her car and left the scene, she says later, reporting it to the police. It was when she applied for a job and they did a check that they discovered

she was facing charges of causing serious injury by careless driving and could be sentenced to prison. She was instead offered the intensive supervision court. I was really happy, you know, I'm a mom and the only thing I always think about is my children. I was like, you know, thank God I'm not going into prison and, you know, I've got this chance now. I can't live without my kids not for a single second

and the fact that I was able to do this, I would choose this over going to prison for a month or six weeks or whatever it would have been. Never ever do I want to go into prison ever. What was it like having to go before the judge regularly though? Because you have to have really regular check-ins, don't you? The first visit was really scary, really intense. You know, just even going through the whole security to get to the building and go inside and everything.

I've never experienced anything like that before, never been in trouble before. So it was really scary. But she was very supportive. She said if I needed to take a break, if I needed some air or anything, then, you know, I could leave. It wasn't just seeing the judge every month, was it? You had to commit to doing other things too. I would be in either once or twice a week meetings with my probation officer for an hour or it was meeting with the case workers.

I also did a six-week course for regulating emotions and distress, which was very helpful. I did a healthy relationships course, which was 10 or 12 weeks long, which was more one-to-one. And that taught me about how to set boundaries and how healthy relationships work, which was really, really good. I also had therapy for my mental health. How much do you think you've changed? I think I've changed so much. I'm more confident as a person in myself. I don't have nowhere near as much anxiety as I used to have.

I'm really grown as a person. I'm really a different person than I was when this first started. What would you say to those people who might be thinking this doesn't actually sound like much of a punishment? Whether they want to call it punishment or not, this has completely changed my life. I had my job that was lined up for me, that I was ready to start work, that didn't happen.

I was put on all these really intense courses. I was never allowed to miss appointments unless it was something else going on with my children or if I had an appointment elsewhere for my health. You're not allowed to miss any of the appointments on your order because if you do it can have really serious consequences which could lead you going into prisons. It affected my children's life.

It's affected my own life. quite a big way. It has changed my life completely. That was Anne, not her real name, talking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott there. Simon, just to get an idea, because you helped develop the system of how women should be assessed by the court,

and a lot more onus is put on a judge. So how different is their role from a judge in a traditional court? And you've observed this court in action, haven't you? So if you just give us a bit of insight. Yeah, that's correct. I mean, in terms of the difference, really, the difference comes in the review.

section of the court that we've just heard in the previous clip. In the review, the probation team will report in to the review panel with the women present. And really, it's an opportunity for the judge to review the progress in relation to that order. But what I would say about the reviews that I have sat in on, and they feel very different in terms of they're very much focused on the strengths of the women, looking at what the women are doing well in relation to their order, and there's a real motivational style in relation to it. The kind of formality of the court is different.

The judge and other court officials play a kind of critical role in this, a very clear communication to understand so that participants understand the processes, so that they can feel that they're treated fairly and consistently. And I would say there's a real clear emphasis on treating the women with empathy and understanding the reasons why they're before the court. Joy, we know there's a huge delay in backlog when it comes to the courts and shortage of probation officers. Is there a danger that more of these courts can put pressure on an already stretched judiciary?

potentially but there is a lot of investment going into that area so it should be okay I mean and the difference is you know if keeping women out of prison in the community because so many so few women actually go to prison it's only 4% of the prison population so hence the prisons are a long way away from home so to actually keep her in the community is a huge plus and you know not disrupting those children as well because children tend to have to go into care or into the care of other family members or move out of the family home. So it saves all that extra cost on society. Simon, the aim is to keep women out of prison, but is there enough support and help to do that? I think in terms of what we know in relation to what makes such courts successful, really it's

It's about a couple of things. The first one is about the approach of the judge and how you capture the approach of individual judges and replicate those across a wide geography is really kind of is critical. In turn, what I would say is I foresee potentially two issues that need to be addressed. The first one is the funding of the multidisciplinary teams and the support that they offer is really critical. And the second thing really is the end of the court order

And what we know from the evidence base is If the end of the court order is a cliff edge for support Then we have issues with recidivism So yes I'm sure we will be coming back to discuss this again But for now thank you so much both of you for joining us Joy Dole and Professor Simon Pemberton Speaking to us from Birmingham this morning

And you also heard the experience of a woman we're calling Anne who's been through the intensive super provision court herself. We also have a statement from the Ministry of Justice saying the criminal justice system this government inherited was not working for most women, many in custody of victims themselves, often of domestic abuse

and over half a mothers. Last year, the Deputy Prime Minister made it clear the government recognises the value of intensive supervision courts and remains committed to expanding them to further strengthen support for women. We're also investing almost £32 million in community-based women's services to deliver vital specialist support

and help reduce re-offending. Now, to my next guest, the newly crowned farming woman of the year. Millie Fife has a farm with her husband in Northamptonshire where she's created the countryside kitchen, an educational hub to teach people all about food farming and cooking. Judges at the National Women in Agriculture Awards praised her exceptional impact, empowering hundreds of children and families

and championing a more resilient future for agriculture too. Millie, congratulations. What an accolade. Thank you. And you've brought it with you. I know, absolutely. Well, I'm so proud. It's been a whirlwind since I was awarded the National Women in Agriculture Farming Women of the Year last week. I mean, there's only 13% of us women that work in agriculture.

Yes. And it's wonderful to be recognised. And someone who isn't originally from farming. Married into it? Married into it. Well, I actually got involved with young farmers when I was age 14. Right. And I never looked back.

So before we get into your lover farming, tell us about your farm and about the countryside kitchen. Why you got this award? Yeah, absolutely. So we're in Northamptonshire, a little village called Yelva Toft. And we are a traditional mixed livestock and arable farm. So we have 100 beef, suckler cows. We have 300 breeding ewes. So we just finished lambing.

We've got five cows. Which is why you can be here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I don my scruffy clothes this morning, chucked to all the animals. out. But he's actually wearing an exquisite dress with sheep all over it. Absolutely. Yep. I'm

completely on brand. And then I have Gloucest-I-Spot Pigs. I have golden guernsey goats. I have a number of chickens. And then we grow wheat and barley as well and grass for hay and silage. So lots. So busy. Yes. And the countryside kitchen. Talk us through

the workshops that you run and the purpose of what we're doing. So I've had two this week. We opened the countryside kitchen classroom last July. And we've had nearly a thousand children, young people and vulnerable adults through our doors. We offer workshops basically exploring the field to fault journey. So having a walk around our farm, meeting some of our animals, but also talking about where your food comes from. That's it in a nutshell.

And why is it important to bring people from all walks of life, I suppose, into the farm to learn about food production in this way? What does it do? What reactions are you seeing? Yeah, well, there's such a disconnect now between where our food comes from. And it's something that I'm very, very passionate about. I know how hard farmers work to produce high quality, high welfare animals and produce that goes into the supply chain that we all consume. Yet we are very disconnected now from the source of our food. And so I'm able to show people,

round our farm, they can ask me whatever questions they like and we get all sorts of different questions and we have a real laugh as well but it's that that awe and that wonder that children have because they don't have food technology in school anymore

very, very few do and especially the children that are coming from towns and cities they don't often have access to the countryside and green space. You're doing a brilliant job and you will know about this. It's a farms for city kids. It's a brilliant.

Michael Morpurgo charity and I did a piece for country file and I was with a group of wonderful young children and he pulled out a box of eggs and they asked where do you think these come from and a kid put his hand up and went the supermarket. So I mean that doesn't surprise you. No, no, it doesn't. I mean we have a number of, we've done our own turkeys and we've done our own broiler chickens as well. So meat chickens. And I tell the children, you know, this is your KFC. This is your whole chicken that you get in the supermarket and they look at me and as if to go, no it's not and I'm like it is you know and that is the reality and I think we're very sheltered from the source of our food and so if I'm able to help with that and I work with lots of groups and organisations to help to enhance the learning and really the school teachers love the fact that we're linking with the curriculum with science and engineering and all the different careers that we have on the farm as well we did a women in farming special on country file um country file woman's out the other job um uh over a year ago. It was about this time last year. And we found, you know, that women on farms, as we know,

it's not just a job. It's a lifestyle. And you're on the farm, helping, getting stuck in. You're also doing the paperwork and bringing up children and doing everything that needs to be done. Yes. So how has this, how have you managed to do it? And I know also that you've had an injury as well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it is very much a juggling act. My children are seven and eight. And like you say, I sustained a spinal cord injury during childbirth with my oldest son. And, you know, Angus nearly eight years ago, well over eight years ago, and it took nearly seven years to get a formal diagnosis. So I live with chronic pain, and I had a spinal cord stimulator installed in December. So actually the work that I do, it keeps me going.

It keeps, that's my North Star, is helping to make a difference and bringing people to the farm. We don't charge. We work really hard to secure grants and sponsorship and things. funding so that those at most disadvantage are able to benefit the most. And that's why we welcome SCN children. We have groups recovering from addiction as well. So we have a complete variety of groups from age three, four toddlers to the elderly as well. So we really are starting to make such a difference. And you are right, as women in agriculture, we do have so many different roles on the farm. And we are raising children. We are helping to run a business.

but also I'm the face of our business. I'm the one that's in the community and trying to link the community with what we're doing and bringing them along with us. And this award is, you know, for my family. It's for all the volunteers that help me. But I think, you know, you can work in isolation and agriculture. We're quite lonely. Yeah. And do. Do you have support? Well, a network? Well, we do to a degree. But it's that human. you know, we don't get that as much as we could. I think we live in such a fast-paced world now. And although it's so lovely, and a lot of the things we do at the countryside kitchen is about mindfulness and relaxation and things like that, I think I probably need to practice a little bit more what I preach because they're in, you know, in farming, it's not a nine to five.

It's long hours, but it's very, very rewarding. And it is a way of life, but it's a very good life. And I want more people to enjoy that. and appreciate what us as farmers do. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to be able to celebrate you today on the program, Millie Fife, Farming Woman of the Year. Thank you so much for joining us and wearing that dress.

Thank you. Very much appreciated. Back to Flatpack and your messages coming in. Listening to your program, we're currently in the middle of trying to build a wardrobe for my daughter. Extremely difficult as the instructions are in French. It's just myself, my husband and daughter

trying to build it, still not finished. Gina in Shrewsbury, best of luck to you. Let me know how you get on its weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Noel Titheridge and for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World,

this is impulsive. What happens when someone's personality changes completely? It was completely out of character. Never done it before, never done it since. And it's because of a prescription drug. I asked myself, Why would you do such a thing?

What were you thinking? I've been uncovering the shocking side effects linked to medications called dopamine agonists. For BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, this is Impulsive. Subscribe to Shadow World Impulsive now on BBC Sounds.