Woman's Hour - Menopause in Parliament, Rebel Wilson, Women and Gaming, Sibling Sexual Abuse, Growing up in Albania.

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

The House of Commons is going to become a 'menopause-friendly' employer. Speaker of the Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle said after he signed a Menopause Workplace Pledge yesterday, that he hopes to "break the taboo" around the menopause. Practical adjustments could be included in Westminster, such as well-ventilated rooms and fans, flexible working and breathable uniforms. But will a pledge in Parliament have any impact of the lives of women across the UK? Journalist and author of Cracking The Menopause, Mariella Frostrup and academic and author Dr Lara Owen join Emma to talk about changing the culture around menopause. The Australian actor Rebel Wilson has revealed she is in a relationship with a woman. Last Friday, she shared a picture with her new partner on Instagram saying she had found her "Disney princess". But it was revealed the following day, the Sydney Morning Herald wrote they'd known about the relationship before it was public. Their celebrity reporter said he had given Wilson 1.5 days to provide comment for a story. That report sparked widespread criticism on social media, with LGBTQ+ campaigners saying it was unacceptable to put pressure on people to come out. The paper has since removed that gossip column and offered an apology. Emma is joined by the journalist and feminist campaigner Julie Bindel to discuss. Lea Ypi, professor of Political Theory at the London School of Economics, has written a prize-winning memoir, Free: Coming of Age at the End of History. Lea grew up in Albania and for the first eleven years of her life, it was one of the most isolated countries in the world, Europe’s last Stalinist outpost. Then, in December 1990, the regime collapsed. Lea joins Emma to talk about her extraordinary coming-of-age story.A new report funded by the Home Office suggests that sexual abuse of a child by their brother or sister – sibling sexual abuse – may be the most common form of sexual abuse within the family. Many experts say it is not given enough attention and resources need to be set aside to support families dealing with this. Emma speaks to reporter Livvy Haydock and Stephen Barry, who is the Lead Clinician at 'Be Safe' Bristol, part of the Avon and Wiltshire Mental Health partnership NHS Trust. Fancy taking your rage at the patriarchy out on a computer game? Well a developer in Plymouth has come up with The Glass Ceiling Games, where you fire slingshots back against catcalls, slice machetes at unsolicited nude photos, and point a ray-gun against mansplaining. So does it make a difference when women write computer games? Emma is joined by Hannah Wood creative director of The Glass Ceiling Games, and Karla Reyes, a game designer and Head of Business Development at Code Coven - an award-winning game development accelerator for underrepresented talent.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. You may have seen some of the photos of a group of well-known women standing together in Westminster yesterday. They're in most of the newspapers today. They had headed to the House of Commons to mark the signing of the menopause mandate, a pledge by the Commons to become a menopause-friendly workplace, with the hope that many will follow suit if they haven't already.

I will be talking to one of those women, Mariella Frostrup, shortly, about what that means and what that mandate means. But I wanted to ask you first what it should mean regarding where you work, if it should mean anything at all. Because taking an even further step back, would you tell your colleagues and boss that you're menopausal and experiencing some symptoms? Showing any form of perceived weakness or ill health at work is still risky and often not viewed as desirable by either the person receiving the information or the person giving it. So how can such schemes cut through? Do tell me. Of course, you may not be at that stage. You might be beyond it.

You might be right in the thick of it. But what's your take on this with regard to and regarding where you work? Text me here at Women's Hour 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website. I of course could be talking from your point of view, you could be talking about symptoms and how it would feel to reveal such symptoms. But you could also have ideas around adjustments you'd like to see in the workplace. That could be to do with uniforms, it could be to do with where you sit, it could be to do with temperature. Do get in touch with your take on this, because I should say, the backdrop

is there is a trend of a rising number of menopause tribunals. That's also happening at the moment. And there are also recent surveys showing that women have talked about their workplaces and a whole variety of workplaces lacking basic support for women going through the menopause so that's some of the context if you're not aware of it I thought it'd be helpful but you may be very aware of it you may have first-hand experience so do get in touch 84844 that's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Also coming up on today's programme, we hear what it was like growing up in Albania, formerly one of the most isolated countries in the world under a strict communist regime, one writer tells all. And we're going to discuss the forced outing of the actor Rebel

Wilson, now happily in a relationship with a woman. But how that information became public is a whole other story. So all that to come. But first, the House of Commons is to become a menopause-friendly employer. The Speaker of the Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, signed a menopause workplace pledge yesterday, saying he hopes to break the taboo. But what does that mean for women across the UK? And will a pledge in Westminster have any impact on their lives? Could it trickle down in some way in the places where laws are made? Well, so Lindsay, in one of the things that he said, he said he wanted to create a culture of openness in discussions around menopause. But he also mentioned practical

adjustments, which could be included such as well-ventilated rooms, fans, flexible working and breathable uniforms. One of the women in the many photos of this group that went to the House of Commons yesterday is Mariella Frostrup, the journalist and of course the author of Cracking the Menopause. Mariella, I'll come to you first. It's quite the gathering. I have to say the Daily Mail headline is a Commons touch of glamour. I'm sure you enjoy that. Mariella Frostrup, do I have you there? I'm hoping we do. I think she's joining me now. Mariella, good morning.

Mariella Frostrup, she's left me hanging here. You've left me hanging, Mariella. You're worth the wait. No, I'm here. Can you hear me? I can, Loud and clear. So sorry. I seem to have an unmute and mute button that has a mind of its own. I was just going to say to you that actually yesterday was an even more historic day in the Houses of Parliament because there were two menopause gatherings. There was one in the morning, which was the launch of Menopause Mandate, which is something that a group of us created, pictures in the Daily Mail, photographed some of the members. But of course, it was very much in support of Carolyn Harris and her pursuit

of affordable HRT. And then in the evening, as though you couldn't get enough menopause down there. So Lindsay Hoyle launched his menopause workplace pledge, which we then attended as we were already in the building. It's not often you get to say vulva twice at the seat of government, but that's what I managed to do yesterday. Well, there you go. That's a whole other tale, I suppose. And yes, as I was saying, the headline in the mail was a common touch of glamour, the flurry of excitement, I suppose, to have so many women and menopause of women, it seems, in one place. And you mentioned Carolyn Harris there, of course, the Labour MP who we've spoken to a number of times about her work and campaigning in this area. What to you is a menopause friendly workplace, Mariella? Well the reason I explained the two different things that went on yesterday is that of course well-being of women are the people responsible for the menopause

workplace pledge and that's Professor Dame Leslie Regan who you've had on lots and lots of times and I'm sure has explained ad nauseum I mean a menopause friendly workplace to me quite honestly is a place where you can mention the word menopause without being retired or disparaged or sniggered at and I think that in many ways that's the most important thing about what Sir Lindsay Hall has done is the signal that it sends out you know if saying the word menopause in the Houses of Parliament has become an acceptable thing and you know we could talk long and hard about why it would have taken two millennia to get to that point. But if that's the signal that's being

sent out, then I think that that makes a huge difference. And actually, Dame Leslie was saying to me yesterday that a thousand workplaces have now signed up to this menopause workplace pledge. And I think that that's the important thing, is that it spreads far and wide. Of course it's important in Parliament, but it's important almost in a sort of tokenistic way because it sends a signal way beyond that. Yes, Dame Lesley Regan,

former chair of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, someone we have spoken to a great deal. But I suppose already I'm receiving a message here, and I'm sure you will have had some of these concerns put to you, whether talking about your book or as this group, a message here that says, I'm more worried about ageism. My department prefers male staff, fresh blood over experience, telling everyone I've been through the menopause singles me out as being ready for the scrap heap. What do you say about that? I think it's really sad that someone feels that saying that they have gone through menopause signals them out for the scrap heap.

And I think that's exactly the culture that I'm absolutely committed to changing. You know, men at that particular period of their lives in the workplace are considered to be at their most thrusting and successful. Why on earth should women be seen to be any lesser? And the thing about menopause is that it affects everybody differently. Some women will suffer no symptoms at all. Some women will suffer incredibly debilitating symptoms. All that we're really suggesting should happen is that it becomes an acceptable word to use about a liminal phase that affects 50% of the population and, you know, is compulsory in our fertility lifespan. I suppose it's just there will be workplaces that, and in, you know, it takes time, doesn't it,

for cultural change to happen, where it will not be possible and it will not be desirable to to be able to say I am menopausal and I'm suffering today that's I suppose the reality but why on earth shouldn't it be no one's arguing with that Mariella I'm talking about the reality of somebody being scared to lose their job they've got a mortgage they're of a certain age and they don't but there isn't there is employment law in place that means you can't lose your job as a result of saying that you're menopausal so you know that's also a really important thing to mention. They can't afford tribunals, perhaps. They can't afford the stress of that. You know, I've got a message here saying interesting to hear people are now going through menopause tribunals.

I considered one when I left work, but it was another year until I realised my health problems were actually menopause. You know, I'm not saying that what you're saying is controversial. Of course, it's how people want it to be. But people are also writing in to say, I've got to live in the world that I'm in. Indeed. So what do we do, Emma? Do we take it for granted that menopause has to remain a shameful secret that women are afraid to utter in case of losing their jobs? I really don't think so. I think what we do is we tackle it. We battle forward. And I think what happened yesterday in Parliament is a fantastically positive signal

about how the world is changing. You know, up until two years ago, I think menopause had been mentioned 20 times in Parliament and hunting had been mentioned 250 in the whole history of parliament you know it just goes to show um you know how our priorities need to change and are changing and i totally empathize with anyone who feels that they're being discriminated against in the workplace because of the fact that they're menopausal as i empathize with anyone who's been discriminated

against in the workplace for any reason at all. But as a campaigner for making menopause less of a terrible challenge for women, then I would say that what we have to do is fight against the prevailing winds, not just kind of let them blow us along. Well, of course, you know, somebody pointing out pregnancy discrimination is illegal, but still happens. And that's been a long fought campaign. There's a couple of messages referring to sort of the idea of this is menopause mania. And some of our listeners not liking that. Can I read you one of them, which says the menopause isn't an illness.

It is a stage of life. You wouldn't accept puberty as being an illness. So why do we think the menopause is? We need to get away from this idea that we can live forever and never get old. That isn't how it works. Accept and move on. I am 68 now. I had a messy menopause is. We need to get away from this idea that we can live forever and never get old. That isn't how it works. Accept and move on. I am 68 now. I had a messy menopause. So what? Deal with it. Life is rich at all ages and in all forms, but you have to immerse yourself in it to find the joys. Essentially allow yourself to grow up. Have you had any of that sort of reaction from women? There's nothing in there for me to really disagree with, apart from the fact that I don't describe menopause as an illness and never would. It's a liminal phase that every woman,

every single woman in the world will go through. And I don't think there's any such thing as menopause, mainly. I think it's a really handy way of dismissing something that's actually desperately important in a lot of women's lives. Let me read you something because we have so many people uploading their stories on menopause mandate. And this one's titled, I begged for help for two whole years. I begged my male GP for help and was passed from pillar to post. I was offered antidepressants so many times. He kept saying that there was absolutely no way he would prescribe HRT as he

didn't want me running back to him crying that I'd developed breast cancer. Finally, I spoke to an amazing female menopause specialist who prescribed oestrogen and progesterone and my life has totally changed. All I'm campaigning for is support for women. Did you do what though? During the liminal phase of life. After 2000 years of it being completely, we used to have leeches applied to our vulva in order to remove the toxic blood that we apparently were full of when we stopped having periods.

That used to be a treatment for menopause. We used to be burnt at the stake. Yeah, I mean, there are extraordinary details that you... It's important to mark progress. Of course, of course. I think what I'm trying to get to, and I want to introduce another guest that we've got with us this morning

who's been working specifically with workplaces, is Mariella, where some women still feel uncomfortable. Of course, not being diagnosed. We're wombs out. We've done a great deal on the silence and shame and stigma about menopause. But where some women are still feeling uncomfortable and where there could be a debate and seems to be a debate about this is what to say in your workplace. It's where your life collides with your professional and some women do not wish to talk about it and don't wish to have any adjustments made and i think that's that's women have choices and i guess well it's a debate

absolutely and women have choices and women should be able to choose whether or not they want to talk about menopause and if they do want to talk about menopause. And if they do want to talk about menopause, and if they are experiencing symptoms that they're finding debilitating, then I absolutely think in this modern 21st century, they should be able to say so. And if they feel uncomfortable and ashamed of doing that, the whole point of our campaign is in order to support them and to make sure that they are supported in workplaces. And it does become normalised.

So I'm not really sure what the difficulty is. Well, no, you just accepted there's a debate. I never said there was difficulty and I'm representing that debate from some of our listeners. May I just bring in Dr Lara Owen, an author and academic. She researches and writes about the culture, politics and organisation of menstruation and menopause. Lara, welcome to the programme.

Hi, Emma. Hi, Marilla. Good to be here. Hi, Lara. There is a very lively discussion about not only the symptoms of menopause and how to live with them and even be diagnosed as Mariella's very powerful message just showed there from one woman who'd been in touch with her and her organisation and the campaigners but there is also this other concern that I know you're familiar

with Lara about ageism and people being singled out, women being singled out. Well, there's several issues to discuss here. One is that we don't really have enough research data yet. Most of the research on menopause has been done on professional women, on Caucasian women. We don't have enough on menopause around the world in non-urban settings, in precarious employment, in factories and shops and those sorts of jobs. And especially in front facing jobs, which my research on menstruation showed is an extra load on women when they're having their period, just as it is when you're in menopause. If you're having a hot flush in front of a customer, it's very different than if you're sitting at your desk in a back office. So these are all things that we need to understand more about so that we know how to address the issues that Mariella was raising and that the person who texted you was raising about how do you actually discuss it? And one of the strategies that we can employ is to look at the business case for supporting women during menopause,

which is a strong business case, because when women feel they have to leave the workplace during menopause, then that's a huge loss of institutional memory and institutional knowledge to the workplace, which is irreplaceable. Workplaces need women in their 50s and 60s. These are incredibly valuable employees. And that's a case that I think that menopausal women and their advocates could be using more strongly. I think we're all somewhat hypnotized by the ageist dynamic. and standing up for the role of older women in society is a really, really important element of this work, I think. Well, Shelley, to your point, Lara says, I've just gone down to three days a week. I can't afford to. But I also couldn't take the discrimination every day. My union said I would never win a tribunal. And a colleague said to me

when I was 52, oh, well, you're retiring soon anyway. I think menopause is intersectional with ageism. And it's very hard to prove in a tribunal as well. Laura, you're nodding with that. Well, yes, I think it's terrible that women have to go to tribunals about this, because that's enormously stressful, just as a point in your life when you really want to be having you know having less stress to have to go to a menopause tribunal is a horrible thing to have to endure and I think you know I'd like to see us get to a point where we're beyond that where the legislation is pretty clear policies are universal and women know how to navigate this phase of their lives with a lot of support. Laura just just stay with you for a moment if I may. I know you've spoken to companies about making workplaces better.

And there's a message here saying, I'm utterly cynical about workplace menopause pledges. I've worked for a company who had it splashed all over the media about being menopause friendly, whilst at the same time making no allowances for their employees and enforcing the wearing of uncomfortable, itchy, sweaty, uncomfortable uniforms. There seems to be a dichotomy there, Lara.

Yeah, no, I agree. I think the pledge in itself, it's lovely, but it's nowhere near enough. And it needs to be attached to policies that are actually enacted, such as breathable clothing made from natural fibres, the ability to control the ventilation and temperature of your working environment. And more than that, that management actually are menopause and menstrual literate and know how to support staff. And I do include menstruation in this because it is really relevant for menopause, because in the pre-menopausal years, at least a third, probably more women have episodes of heavy menstrual bleeding, which can be incredibly distressing when you're at work.

And that's something that I think because of the stigma around menstrual blood in particular, women need to know that it's going to be OK for them to talk about that and to say, look, I'm sorry. I'm terribly sorry. I've just flooded. I need someone to take over my, you know, my position here for the next hour or something while I sort myself out or to go home or to have some kind of flexible working arrangement. If that's an issue they have. I know women who the stigma around menstrual blood has affected heavy menstrual bleeding so much that they've not even gone to the doctor to get help with it. So this is really a pressing issue in the years leading up to menopause. Dr. Lara Owen, thank you. Marielle, a final word from you. We, of course, monitor what's going on in the House of Commons as a place of work. Are you confident it will be able to do this?

Because, of course, it's also been criticised quite heavily for a culture of bullying, a lack of accountability around some of the basics. Indeed, and I'm sure the House of Commons has many things to do to improve its capacities as a workplace. You know, I don't work there, so I can't speak for them. And I also, you know, agree absolutely with everything that Lara said. And the last thing you want is kind of men-o-washing in the same way as you've got green-washing in companies at the moment. But we have to... I just made it up. greenwashing at the moment but we have to I just

made it up oh there you go but we have to start somewhere and I think it's just really important you know so much great work has been done in the field of periods and what Lara was saying really rang true with me there in terms of the excess bleeding the really heavy bleeding that women get coming up to menopause which I was totally unaware of and I had. And, you know, it was really made me think that I wasn't menopausal because I thought, how can I breathe? It's oceans of blood. And so I think all of those things becoming, you know, used in the popular domain, talked about, naturalized, normalized is really the most important thing that can happen. And I think that, you know, significant gestures like Sir Lindsay Hoyle's are really important. The real work starts here, though.

We'll let you get on with it. Mariella Frostrup, thank you very much. A busy campaigner, of course, a journalist as well, and author of Cracking the Menopause. A message here saying, I think that talking about menopause in the workplace is a positive move. However, it might not be so well received and sympathetically regarded in the gig economy, a key employment sector for women. And another one here talking about being in their 50s reads this message. I'm in my 50s, attended a workplace session on the menopause run by the NHS. I brought back a leaflet for managers. My manager, who was in her 20s, said, I don't need this. And I said, it's for managing us. So some of those conversations, a flavour of those coming in on the messages.

Keep them coming, please, on 84844. Now, the Australian actor Rebel Wilson has revealed she's in a relationship with a woman. On Friday, she shared a selfie with her new partner on Instagram saying she'd found her Disney princess. But it was revealed the following day, the Sydney Morning Herald, the newspaper there wrote, one of the newspapers in Australia wrote that they'd known about the relationship before it was public. Their celebrity reporter said he had given her one and a half days to provide comment for his column. You know, you're often contacted, I'm sure, in her position to give some time to reply to information that's in the public about you when you are a celebrity. But that report sparked widespread criticism on social media with LGBTQ plus campaigners saying it was unacceptable

to put pressure on people to come out. The paper has since removed that particular gossip column and offered an apology. Well, I'm joined now by the journalist and feminist campaigner, Julie Bindle. Julie, good morning. Good morning. Many people have criticised the newspaper

for effectively outing Rebel Wilson. Just as a journalist, what do you make of that? As it seemed almost to some people of quite a 90s, 80s technique, the way it came about. What do you make of that? I think he needs to go back to journalism school. I mean, this was outrageous practice, really unethical. You only do that if it's a public interest story, if you're exposing wrongdoing, corruption, lies that affect the public, not when it's about a personal relationship, which is only her business and her business alone. I mean, you know, Rebel has said it's been a hard situation. Maybe she'll reflect on the way that we behave with each other publicly. I think, you know, condemning J.K. Rowling publicly at the BAFTAs in front of millions, which created a pile on for her,

was the wrong thing to do. But to go back to the coming out issue, it should actually be our business and it should be in our own time and circumstances. But I do think as someone with a public profile, with secure housing and income, a loving family, that we have a responsibility. And I wish it wasn't like this, but it is a responsibility to come out if we can, in order to be a role model and an inspiration and some kind of barrier for those young lesbians, gay men, or those that live in conservative religious communities where it's less easy for them. I think that those of us that can should come out. So it's a bigger point for you, not in any ways of saying this was okay, but the bigger point is for you come out when you know, when you can, when you can say something.

Absolutely. I was outed at school when I was 15 in 1977, a sync school on a really, you know, working class community where there was very little sympathy and support for anyone. How old were you? I was 15. And it was, excuse me, in those days, you were either a slag or a lesbian. And because I wasn't interested in boys, I was obviously slurred with. And it was a slur with the. And they'd clocked that I had a crush on my best friend. And I was outed and it was horrific. And there were really serious consequences for me. Thankfully, I went on to meet proud lesbians and feminists who showed me that this is something to celebrate, not to be ashamed of. But I could easily have gone back in the closet, stayed in the closet, gone the other way. And this is why I think now that I'm in the position that I'm in of relative privilege, that I

do owe it to younger women to come out. And I wish that all of those in the public eye that have that level of protection do so rather than it being treated as something that is shameful or secret. And I think this journalist really was appalling and it was blackmail. It was bullying. And I think he should reflect. He's written a column saying, I made mistakes over Rebel Wilson. He himself, he points out he's gay as part of his kind of understanding. I suppose he puts that forward himself, but he does say he makes, he made mistakes. There is that apology from the paper and the original column isn't or isn't there anymore, as I said. But just to your point, there will be some listening thinking, well, maybe she wasn't ready, Julie.

Maybe she just hadn't got her head around it yet, because as I understand it again, you know, I don't know any of this information firsthand that she dated men before. And now she's in a relationship with with a woman. So what would you say to those who just say maybe, you know, she wasn't there yet? I think that's absolutely fine. It's her business and her business only. It's about her private life. It shouldn't be a public interest issue. Absolutely not. And I would say this about everyone. I was deeply critical of the Peter Tatchell kind of forcibly outing politicians, even though some of them were hypocritical and the like back in the 90s. But I do think that

those of us that can come out should come out and we shouldn't treat it like a dirty secret. Julie Bindle, of course, Peter Tatchell's not here to talk about that particular episode, but many will be familiar with what you're talking about with regards to a kind of culture, which is what I originally started by saying, where, you know, newspapers and others would talk about who was gay without the person being involved themselves, which is why I think for a lot of people, they found that story, that something that they couldn't quite get their head around, which is why we wanted to talk to you today. Julie Bindle, thank you very much. The journalist, author and feminist campaigner there. You might get in touch, of course, about that. And I'll look out for those messages and I'll try to come to them if I can. 84844. But many of you still getting in touch

about, and please do, this idea of menopause workplace pledges and what happened in the Commons yesterday. A message here from Anne who says, I'm now in the menopause and I found my younger female work colleagues far worse and sadly quite bitchy about my age, being called an old A message here from Anne who says, and supportive. When I started experiencing menopause symptoms and found working nights difficult and had times when I was having the mental and emotional issues, fatigue and headaches associated with menopause, it was a different case. I was seen as being less effective and weak. I ended up leaving to find a more suitable job. It was a very traumatic experience, not forgetting that my managers were mostly women. Bit of a theme on that point to which I shall return. But my next guest, who's just joined me in the studio,

has managed to pull off something that's pretty hard to achieve. Writing a funny book from the perspective of a child about living through totalitarian communism. It is not all funny, of course, far from it, but there are great moments of warmth and humour. I'm talking about Lea Upi's prize-winning memoir, Free, Coming of Age, At the End of History, in which she describes what it was like growing up in Albania, formerly one of the most isolated countries in the world, under a strict communist regime,

Europe's last Stalinist outpost. And then, of course, in December 1990, everything changed. Lea is now a professor of political theory at the London School of Economics. Leia, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. And we will get on to what it was like in Albania after the collapse of the Stalinist regime. But I wanted to start by concentrating on your early years. From your perspective, why was, your understanding now, why was Albania so isolated? Just to give our listeners some background. It had become isolated, especially in the 80s. It did not start out as isolated. The communists had come to power in 1946 with the help of Yugoslav communists, but then Albania had broken ranks with Yugoslavia in the 40s, then with the Soviet Union in the late 50s when they de-Stalinized,

then with China in the 70s. And in the 80s, it had broken ranks with not just every capitalist imperialist state out there, but also with every other communist country claiming that they had abandoned the path of true communism. And when you were born in 1979, you weren't given a name, a number, 471. Is that right? It's because I was born a premature child. and my parents thought that there wasn't much hope, but there was enough hope to call me by a number, not by a name. Well, you do go on, of course, and thrive. And you write from the perspective of being a very eager young student. You really appreciated your teacher, Nora, in particular. What did she teach

you? I was a good socialist child who was brought up to believe that Albania was the freest country in the world and that we had a responsibility to advance Albanian communism regardless of the sacrifices that we had to make for it. There were scarcity, there were lots of queues, it was difficult to leave Albania. In fact, people who left Albania would be shot at the border. But we were told that all of this was a necessary sacrifice to protect the freedom of communist Albania and to try and give an example to other minor, smaller countries that could follow its path on the way to freedom. And also talking about sacrifices, lots of life included queuing, didn't it, for all sorts? Yeah, and there was a whole sort of norms that went with queuing.

People would, for example, put objects in the queue because there were so many queues. You had to put an item in the queue while the deliveries weren't there. And so, for example, a plastic bag or a bottle or a can of some kind. And then they would replace the people. And then when the deliveries happened, everyone was in the queue returning. And so the objects kind of lost their representative function and became people again. I mean, you remember all of this very vividly, don't you? Yeah, they were standout moments of my childhood. This was my childhood. And we remember these salient moments of our childhood. And you come across so sweetly, you know, if I can say as so loyal, you know, to the regime around you and to what you were being told.

I knew nothing else. And we were told these things about Albania and about communism. And we were also given through children's magazines and books some insight into the lives of other poor children in other parts of the world. And we were told that this was a world of exploitation, of injustice, of exclusion. And so we thought we were privileged growing up in this country that was not exclusive and not exploitative. And yet your family were keeping things from you, were talking in codes, and you weren't aware really of, why would you be necessarily as a child,

of what their political views were. And in fact, why perhaps your surname might be a problem? Yeah, I was my father. My surname is Yuppi and my father was called after, called Jafer Yuppi after a former Albanian prime minister who was very important when Albania became a fascist state in handing over the sovereignty of Albania to the fascist occupiers. And I was always told throughout my childhood that the fact that my father had the same name and surname as this former fascist politician collaborator, it was de facto the equivalent of the Maréchal Petain in Albania, was just a coincidence. And it was only after the regime fell that I discovered that it wasn't a coincidence that this man was in fact my great-grandfather. My goodness. How old were you when you discovered that? wasn't a coincidence that this man was in fact my great-grandfather. My goodness. How old were you when you discovered that?

Eleven and a half. And what was your response to that? How did you process that? It was very confusing because I had grown up despising all the class enemies of Albania. So we were told to fight the bourgeoisie and to fight the aristocracy. And I discovered that both the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy were in my family. And so it was almost like discovering that you're the enemy of yourself. And, you know, there were other things, I suppose, going on, which made your family stand out, certain lack of photos, political photos in the house. This is one of the earliest memories of my childhood was when Enver Hoxha, the communist

leader of Albania, died. And there was, people were crying, there was mourning in the streets. And I remember that my family didn't seem as upset about it. And in fact, while we were watching the funeral, they were commenting about the funeral music, which at the time I didn't really understand, but I found very strange that while the whole country was in mourning and there was this devastating loss for the nation, my parents only seemed interested to talk about who was this devastating loss for the nation. My parents only

seem interested to talk about who was the composer of the funeral march. And then I asked them, why do we not have a photo of Enver Hoxha? And they kept making excuses. They wouldn't say to me that they were dissidents, that they had always objected to the party. Which is what they were. Which is what they were. My grandfather had been in prison for 15 years, even though he was a socialist. But I didn't know many of family members and family relatives had been persecuted. But I didn't know any of this while I was growing up. My gosh. I mean, it's just like two halves, really, of your knowledge, your identity and all of that, which comes across so well in the book and why a lot of people have been able to,

well, even if they know nothing about Albania, they've been able to relate to it in some way. I think it's because it's a story of how freedom is often packed in ideological content. And it's really hard to tell what is true freedom from the messages that we get given about how should freedom be understood in each society. And that was my experience in Albania, was that you were told that you're free. But then actually, the reality was very, very different. And the whole book is really questioning what the difference is between the appearance of freedom and the essence of freedom, which is an open process and an open search. It must have been, I mean, you're a professor now of political theory. I'm not saying you will have concluded, I suppose, which system you've lived under is the best. It's probably far too simplistic

to put it like that. Certainly, someone who studied politics, if I'd put that to a lecturer, I would have not done very well. But, you know, the idea for you now of freedom, having gone back through how you actually thought about things and then how it really was. And then, of course, somewhere in the middle is the truth or somewhere else. What is your view of what freedom means now? And you live here in the UK. Yeah, to me, it's something that comes through my grandmother's character in the book, which is freedom is something that becomes clear in the awareness of moral duty and in morality and through morality. And that gives us the foundation from which you can criticise society.

I don't think there are any fully free societies anywhere in the world. I think we're all in some ways victims of unfreedom, of ideology, of propaganda, of various kinds. And of course, there are differences in degree, but I think freedom is an open search and it's the process of trying to find out what freedom is. Your grandmother, I should say, plays a big part in this book and a big part in your life, doesn't she? She was very important to me.

She was one of the most important sources of education for me, in part also because she helped me, she guided one of the most important sources of education for me, in part also because she helped me. She guided me through these different transitions of going from a communist country to a capitalist country. She was also someone who had gone through these transitions herself. She came from an aristocratic family of the Ottoman Empire and then lost everything when she came to Albania. Her husband was in prison. She was deported. But she was someone who insisted throughout these changes that we never lose our inner freedom, which is the freedom to do the right thing and to be a moral agent.

And that there is no system, however oppressive, that can take away that dignity of the person. And that is really what matters in the end in going forward. I believe you wrote quite a lot of this in a cupboard during lockdown. That's true. Hiding from your own children. Yes. And in a way, that's what turned the project from an academic abstract project of inquiring what freedom is in general to this more existential experience of thinking, how could we all be told that we live in free societies where in fact, here I am writing in a cupboard because my kids are outside and they need to be homeschooled. There's so many conflicting demands on us that really brought home the question of freedom as not something that's abstract and general, but something the consequences of which we live through our lives every day. Just a final thought, if I can, has it

changed having, there's obviously very good reasons why your family effectively lied to you to protect you. Has it changed how you think about talking and the honesty that you have with your own children? I think I try to, we recently had a discussion with my oldest son who is 11 about Santa who's just discovered that Santa isn't real. Well, okay. Who's listening? Okay, I might need to issue warnings here. But hopefully we're all right. It's not school holidays. But I actually insisted that Santa is real. It's just that it's a different kind of reality. It's not empirical reality, but metaphysical reality. My next guest is going to be great on this. We're talking about gaming and different realities in a moment. But how did that go down?

I think there is an open debate about that. I think we have a responsibility to be as truthful as we can. But we also have a responsibility to make children discover things for themselves and to become autonomous. And so there is a fine line that needs to be threaded between too much guidance and not enough guidance. And that's the difficulty of both parenting, but also growing up. It's rare guests make me worried with what they say, but I'm genuinely getting a bit hot now about what might be the response, depending on who heard that about Santa. But you covered it well. I didn't think we were going to go there. Leah Oupie, thank you very much for coming to talk to us.

The book is called Free, Coming of Age at the End of History. And a lot of people will learn a great deal from it, as well as, of course, being able to, I able to i don't know resonate i suppose with some of those themes of childhood and what you do and don't know but i did say we're going to get to gaming and other realities because a games developer in plymouth has come up with something you might feel like playing you might feel like playing it after this program the glass ceiling games a feminist punk game where players fight fire slingshots back against catcalls, slice machetes at unsolicited nude photos, point a

ray gun against mansplaining. I think you're getting the theme here. I'll let her do a bit more describing. If that sounds good, we'll have your ears, I'm sure, very well attuned for the next few minutes. We do know that female online gamers in the UK rose from 23% in 2018 to 43%

in 2021. Of course, a pandemic in the middle of that, but there's a growing market. I'm joined now by Hannah Wood, Creative Director of The Glass Ceiling Games, and Carla Reyes, a Game Designer and Head of Business Development at Code Coven, an award-winning game development accelerator for underrepresented talent. Hannah, I'll come to you first. Tell us a bit more how this idea came about. Yeah. Hi, Emma. Thanks for having us. So I was doing some research on game mechanics as a storytelling device, and I came across this amazing developer called Jane Friedhoff, who makes feminist Riot Grrrl games like Lost Wage Rampage which is about two Thelma and Louise like women claiming back the

money they've lost because of the gender pay gap by rampaging around a shopping center in a car trying to escape police and she gave a talk which had a call to action in it that said what if we use mechanics to put power in the hands of people that don't have it because games often put power in the hands of people that already have it and that and her games really inspired me and I reflected on all the times that I've been disempowered which often related to sexism and then I imagined what would happen if I had the fantasy powers to fight back and overcome them which is where the ideas for slingshotting cackles and macheting yeah just cyber flashing pics and so slow down a few on those because I said a few examples,

but tell us a few more. Okay, so you throw babies in baskets labelled man's work. You box stereotypes, you machete pics from cyber flashes, you slingshot cackles, you bat away emotional labour. And then finally, Ray Gunn mansplains. And this is all for freedom, money and joy. And this was a means of for me of voicing the perspectives of women and offering a kind of cathartic experience where

you can let your rage out against the patriarchy to a really fierce electro punk soundtrack. Oh, I like the sound of the soundtrack as well. Where can you play this? Now? Is it available? It's not available at the moment. We've made the first two levels. We've prototyped the cat cool and the unsolicited picks levels. And we're currently trying to raise funds to make the rest of them, the other four levels. So it's coming and it's being funded at the moment. And I know you've had some male players and some female players. Have they had different responses?

Yes, definitely. I mean, we made it for women initially to voice those perspectives and they come up to us and they share their own experiences and they say there are parents that say their 11-year-olds are receiving these pictures. There was a woman the other day that said in the space of 25 minutes she was cackled, she was sexually harassed at the bus stop, she was pushed off the pavement by drunk men. There's parents who say that they have arguments with their partner in the morning about who's going to look after their child because it's unwell and just want this game to point to to say it's your turn to

be the basket. But what's been really surprising and unexpected about it is the men playing it because when they're playing that cat call level and they're experiencing what it's like to be cat called they find it really overwhelming and it does that thing that's so unique about games by putting you in that first person perspective and embodying the feeling through the mechanics so you actually have it in your body and that opens up a whole new understanding you know even feminist allies that have played it in the in the last few weeks who understand that this happens to their their wives or their girlfriends or their daughters they've never experienced it or witnessed it and they find it horrifying and that changes

their understanding and and makes them feel that they need to speak out against it more so let me bring a really powerful part well let's, let me bring in Carla at this point. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I suppose this is an example of it, but what do we get or what are we missing by not having more women design the games we play? Well, yeah, it's exactly what Hannah's just touched upon. I think that games are a profoundly powerful medium to explore and experience empathy. And in order to truly portray an authentic or accurate representation of what you're trying to empathize for, it's important to have the people who've actually gone through those experiences behind the actual game development of the product.

And we're seeing that now with an increase in more underrepresented game developers who are sharing and shedding a light on newer stories that didn't exist before through this medium. And you've got, I mean, I'm sure some favourite games already out there that women can play, but designed by women. I mean, do you think people, tell us some of them? And also, do you think people know, players know if it's designed by a woman or a man? Yeah, it's interesting. I think some are quite salient. And there's actually a book that's been published recently called Gamer Girls, 25 Women Who Built the Video Game Industry, written by Mary Kenny, who's from Insomniac Games, who's the studio behind Spider-Man Miles Morales. But there are some quite prominent women game developers, such was the studio behind Journey, which was one of the first games that emerged that was not, you know, exposing violence. It was

actually specifically about exploring human connection and the profundity of human connection. And there's emotional depth to that. And I think that that was one of the first games that received, you know, very broad critical acclaim and was not a first-person shooter type of game. Right, okay. And I suppose it's also about those, I mean, looking at the data and you look at that really big rise of female gamers. I mean, what do you put that down to? Do we know what sorts of games that they're playing?

I mean, of course, some of this will just be the quite basic stuff on your mobile, won't it? Yeah, I think we're seeing, you know, the statistic in the UK that it's nearly 50% of gamers that are female or, you know, underrepresented. And there is some data that suggests that a lot of that is mobile games. But there are many women that are playing the more stereotypical games that we see, which are first-person shooters. And, you know, it's interesting because Hannah's game explores violence in a sense, right? It's empowering to put a woman in that gamer's chair and using those types of combat mechanics that, you know, really empower them. And what are you seeing?

Because I know you're looking about trying to get different people from different backgrounds to come forward and be developers. How is that going? Is it difficult? It ebbs and flows, I would say. And I think it's recently been more opportune due to a resurgence of social justice movements. So the games industry actually went through its own Me Too movement during the pandemic. And then we had, of course, the Black Lives Matter movement. And so there was a lot more attention toward diversity and inclusion within not just the games industry, but society more broadly. And therefore, people are starting to invest more resources in not just recruiting talent into this industry, but, you know, trying to retain it. And what's most essential is really trying to get these women and underrepresented people in leadership roles because that's really what's going to move the needle. Well, it also sort of comes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the programme

about when women also get older, get more senior, and are they given the respect? Are they given the opportunities? Are they trusted as well? With regards to what we've been discussing and still many messages coming in about menopause in the workplace. Just a final word from you, Hannah, of the Glass Ceiling Games. Good luck in getting to creating the next stages. What's your favourite thing to do so far of the list in terms of playing it?

Probably machete dance listed picks. And I should say that they are, the comedy is a really important part of it. And it's a kind of cartoon neon aesthetic. They're represented as aubergines and hot dogs and other phallic food stuff. So yeah, that feels very, very satisfying. They're represented as aubergines and hot dogs and other phallic foodstuffs. Yeah, that feels very, very satisfying.

Was it Fruit Ninja? Was that a game for a while? It's like Fruit Ninja. It's the feminist Fruit Ninja. Feminist Fruit Ninja. There you go. Another tagline for you. Not that you need any more help selling it because I think people get it pretty quickly. And I think you're right to point that out because, of course, some of the criticism labelled at your world is with regards to violence, but humour is a part of it too. And I think people know that it's their game.

Yeah, and it's a really important part of the feminist issue as well, because often it's branded, you know, you've branded the angry feminist or the conversation is shut down or people disengage because they think it's worthy and earnest. And as soon as you get people to laugh at something like that, and it's a completely fantasy power, you know, it's not a real violence. Then you can open up a different conversation and you can perhaps provoke some behaviour change through that. And that's what we're finding. Good luck with it, Hannah Wood, Creative Director of the Glass Ceiling Games,

and Carla Reyes, Game designer and head of business development at Code Coven. A new report funded by the Home Office suggests that the sexual abuse of a child by their brother or sister, which is called sibling sexual abuse, may be the most common form of sexual abuse within the family. Many experts say it is not given enough attention and resources need to be set aside to support families dealing with this very difficult situation which can blow units apart. Livy Haydock is the reporter on this story for an episode of File on 4 called Sibling Sexual Abuse, The Last Taboo, which is on Radio 4 this evening at 8 o'clock. She joins me now. Livy, good morning. This must have been, I can only imagine, a very difficult story to

research and work on. Yeah, it was. It was something that before I started working on it, I had no idea. It was something that I'd only come across, you know, in the sort of tabloid headlines. And so to be totally honest, it's a really sort of uncomfortable subject to discuss. So it really feels like the last taboo with cases often involving the most vulnerable children. So both the child causing the harm and the child who is harmed. The families we spoke to were often devastated when they realised what was happening under their own roof and didn't know where to turn. Yes, and I know that you have been speaking to families that this has happened to. Yes, myself and the producer, Alice Hart, spent months talking to parents from all classes and all backgrounds. And I was really struck, actually, by how ordinary these families were.

I might have thought that, you know, this was quite an extreme and families on the edge type of thing. But actually, that's no means always the case. I had this idea that it was extreme but soon we learned that it was really quite common. Actually, every time I told someone I was working on this, they pretty much every time had a story of someone they knew or someone they knew had experienced it themselves and so if it's happening all around us,

why aren't we talking about it? Did you come to conclusions on that with some of the people that you spoke to? Yeah, I think it's because it is so difficult. People have this idea that, you know, child abuse is a stranger danger, you know. But actually, most child abuse is carried out by people that the child knows and quite often their own family. The idea that it's another child, especially a sibling, that is carrying out the abuse is really hard for people to get their heads around. Well, we can hear a clip from an interview with one of the families you worked with that features in tonight's documentary. Her words are spoken by an actor,

I should say. She starts by describing the moment social services first came to her home. And just a warning, some may find this clip disturbing. They came in. I just remember hovering by the kitchen and they sat on the sofa and then they, yeah, then they told me. And I just couldn't believe it. I was so angry and upset and mortified. In that moment, I was like, oh oh my God, why was I so blind? How did I not know? Can I ask you what they told you had happened? They said that my daughter told someone that my son stuck his willy in her bum.

I did feel quite sick to my stomach. My first thought was that I was going to lose the children. I just wanted the world to swallow me up whole, I guess, you know, like I just, it was so, I just didn't know how to cope with it and process it all and everything. I just wanted to go and cry somewhere. You must have been torn between the two kids. Yeah, definitely. I definitely latched onto my daughter without a doubt just to try and keep her more safe.

I think at the start I kind of pushed him away because I really didn't think that he would still be in the family. I didn't really look at him. I didn't really talk to him. I couldn't. So in terms of hearing that, I mean, it is very disturbing, of course. Do we have any idea how common sibling sexual abuse is. So the research in this area is really patchy and experts are often working from older or quite small studies. But I spoke to Dr Peter Yates, who's an expert in child protection and social work at Edinburgh University. He explained how many people, even some professionals, found it very difficult to accept this kind of abuse is happening.

What people commonly don't understand and realise, but what we now know from the research, is that sibling sexual abuse may actually be the most common form of intrafamilial sexual abuse, up to three times more common than sexual abuse by a parent. The estimates of prevalence across the population vary quite considerably in terms of how we define sibling sexual abuse, but even a very conservative estimate of a 2% prevalence, which is really at the lower end of the studies that have been done, would suggest therefore that in the UK, something like 1.3 million people will have been affected by it. It's very common and very widespread, every bit as

impactful and as harmful as other forms of child sexual abuse. And it raises particular complications, I think, around how we need to respond to it. So you said that before experts do believe more support is needed for families. Is there much out there at the moment? The short answer is no. As I said, it's very patchy. So what many experts are telling us is that this type of use is very complicated. It's often not a straightforward perpetrator and victim scenario. And what they believe, what they call a whole family approach is needed. So supporting the children and the parents together. Here's Dr Oliver Eastman from the NSPCC. The thing that surprises me is when we meet these children is they're not monsters.

They have very many redeeming qualities. They want to learn, they want to change, but also they want for their families to change as well. They are children who are trying to manage as adaptively as they can within the environments in which they find themselves and that what we need to do as adults is to support them and their families to make changes in which they feel safe and protected and comforted and so they don't need to resort to these behaviours. Thank you very much, Livvy, for those reports and insights to your programme this evening. We're now joined by Stephen Barry, who's the lead clinician at Be Safe Bristol, part of the Avon and Wiltshire Mental Health Partnership NHS Trust. Good morning. Where do you start when a family first comes to you? How do you decide that they

need help? Referrals to our service mainly come from children's social care. So we often have already had conversations with the referrer and quite quickly we set up meetings with the parents and and the referrers and key supports around them to find out what what is needed actually and get an understanding of the behavior what might be behind it because as it's been noted there's lots of different we'd say pathways or factors that may influence that behavior. We also start with thinking about how we can create safety in the family for the child who's been harmed, but also for other children who may be in the family or that they may have contact with. So we work very

sensibly and carefully with the network, if you like, supporting the parents, carers, and then we start thinking about you know when we would see the child or the children and that very much also depends on the behavior the age of the children their needs because we're also talking about young children as young as four or five through to you know young people 17 18 so it's a varied approach but it's very sensitive and we're very respectful in that we're not there to judge or condemn or to prove something's happened. And of course not all sexual behaviour between siblings is abuse, some totally normal curiosity and the difference has to be told between those. Very much so and there's some

really useful continuums out there as we put it that look at appropriate sexual behaviour in children as part of development. Doesn't mean that behaviour doesn't need to be redirected in a way that's non-shaming, that's helpful and encourages understanding through to behaviour that we consider to be problematic through to behaviour that's harmful and that is very harmful and that can be very intrusive. What needs to happen to improve this picture across the board? I think projects that will be talked about that were funded through the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice and led by Rape Crisis England and Wales are a really good start to bring together experts by experience, so survivors, victims of abuse, adults, also academics and practitioners, and that's brought together some key information that was missing. We need more funding of projects like my own within Bristol, where we work with children and families who harm others, but also have been harmed, and we work closely with other

services that offer sexual abuse counselling. So we need more services like ours, I would argue, with good support to evaluate what we do to indicate whether it's effective, and also good research. So we need some centralised, I think, funding that looks at pilot projects, for example, over, say, three to five years with good evaluation and research built in. Thank you very much, Stephen Barry, lead clinician at Be Safe Bristol. I should say you can listen to that episode, File on 4, Siblings, Sexual Abuse, Last Taboo, tonight, 8 o'clock on BBC Radio 4 and thereafter on BBC Sounds. few messages have already come in along those lines about this having happened to you or somebody you love many many years ago you can find details of help on the bbc action line website just to go back to your messages of which there have been many about menopause and the workplace ellie says

i'm enjoying the menopause experience i have never felt so powerful i have the physical symptoms but nothing debilitating i'm not scared to talk about it. And I find that people seem genuinely interested in the phenomenon, as she describes it. However, I am single and I'm self-employed, working from home, keeping my own hours with grown up offspring. I imagine adding a relationship, kids and a workspace could quickly turn what can evidently be a positive experience into a hellish one. There's one here, though, saying I'm a 53-year-old mother of a 14-year-old and a three-year-old. I'm also a consultant in a leadership position. Things can be tough. The assumptions that I just get on with things and perform just like those decades my junior, despite my challenges with regards to menopause. Equity is a word used but poorly understood or practiced. Sadly, I do feel like a lone voice championing not only leader parents but menopausal women who lead.

Thank you for the conversation. Well, thank you for your company this morning. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back. The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special

that will chill you to the bone. It was a real dream holiday really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell. Whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm. They wanted to frighten us. The uncanny summer special out now. What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.