Woman's Hour - Menopause, Six Nations, Musician Emma-Jean Thackray

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

The onset of menopause has resulted in 10% of women leaving work for good and more than half having to take time off, according to the Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development. These findings were presented to business leaders yesterday at the launch of the first advisory group for menopause in the workplace. Mariella Frostrup is the Government's Menopause Employment Ambassador and she joins Anita Rani.The Women's Six Nations culminates this weekend. England and France face each other at the Allianz Stadium Twickenham on Saturday to decide the rugby champions. Scotland face Ireland tomorrow and Wales and Italy face off on Sunday. The BBC's Sport Reporter Sara Orchard gives us the lowdown. Rugby player Emma Wassell has been capped 67 times for Scotland and is hoping to make her comeback before the World Cup in England this summer after a traumatic absence. Last September a benign tumour was discovered in her chest – and her recovery has included several surgeries. As she gets back onto the training ground, she joins us to tell her story.What happens when your private photo isn’t nude, but it still ruins your life? The current legal definition of ‘intimate’ image abuse, also known as “revenge porn”, doesn’t reflect the reality for Muslim and BME women. Many of these images aren’t defined as sexual through a western lens but can have serious consequences. We speak to Mariam Ahmed from Amina, the Muslim Women's Resource centre, who have launched an “exposed” campaign to tackle this issue. Emma-Jean Thackray is a multi-instrumentalist, singer, producer, bandleader and a DJ. Her sound has incorporated the widest range of music, from jazz and funk to Detroit house and techno, northern Bassline and catchy rock and pop music. She joins Anita to discuss her new album Weirdo, the inspirations behind it, and to perform live in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do.

Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, welcome to the programme. There's a mass exodus happening in the workforce. It's women taking time off during menopause. In fact, 10% of women leave their jobs completely because of it. I'm going to be talking to Mariella Frostrup, the menopause employment ambassador, about what and why this is happening. But of course, I also want to hear from you this morning about your experiences. Did you have to leave work because of the

menopause? Did you feel supported, Understood? Were you even able to talk about what you were going through at work? How did you get through it and how bad did it get? Maybe you're going through it right now. Remember when this Australian news pundit, Imogen Crump, her name is, brilliantly embraced her perimenopausal body at work. And Chinese, I'm so sorry, I could keep stumbling through this but I'm having such a perimenopausal right now. Live on air. I'm so sorry. Imogen, the point about this is that we need to make it normal to have these kinds of conversations and I love you for even saying it because we interview people, we talk to people about this and this is the reality.

Yes Imogen, we need to make it normal. So let's hear your menopause at work stories this morning. Get in touch with me in the usual way. The number is 84844 if you'd like to text me at WhatsApp it's 03 700 100 444 and you can email the program by going to our website. Also this morning, Rugby will be getting up to speed with the Women's Rugby Six Nations and Emma Wassle will be telling me about her traumatic year away from Scottish rugby, how she's recovering from life-threatening surgery and back supporting Scotland from the sidelines. I'll also be

discussing the definition of image-based abuse and how it should encompass different cultural sensitivities. And as it's Friday, a musical treat in the form of multi-instrumentalist, multi-talented Emma Jean Thackeray. She'll be here to tell us about her new album Weirdo. It's out today. But first, 10% of women leave work for good following the onset of menopause and more than half report having to take time off, that's according to the Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development. These findings were presented to business leaders yesterday at the launch of the first advisory group for menopause in the workplace. Broadcaster and women's health campaigner Mariela Frostrup has been the government's menopause employment ambassador

for the last six months and joins me now morning. Good morning, Anita. How are you? I saw you dancing away to that. Sounds like great music coming up. It's good music coming up. We've always got to have a little dance, especially on a Friday. I think we should start with this statistic. Ten percent of women leave the workforce for good. What's happening? workforce for good. What's happening? I think, you know, historically menopause has been a particularly difficult difficult phase in women's fertility journey because rather than being celebrated in the way that kind of the onset of your periods and then pregnancy and so on are seen as kind of, you know, celebratory moments, menopause has been

the dust that you swept under the carpet. And I think to be going through, you know, many of the symptoms of menopause has been the dust that you swept under the carpet. And I think to be going through many of the symptoms of menopause, many of which we're only discovering day by day at the moment, in silence with the pressure of feeling that you're going through something that is in many ways unspeakable,

I think just proves too much for women. And I think unfortunately, there's not enough information out there, there's not enough advice for women and I think unfortunately you know there's not enough information out there there's not enough advice for women themselves and so when it comes to you know in the workplace and the level of understanding is very very low for all of those reasons. What have women been telling you? I mean you've been at the heart of this you've been leading the charge for quite a while now what stories have you been hearing? Oh I mean you, you know, I suppose, you know,

on the one hand, you could say that the stories that we get tend to be the worst ones because that's what propels people to get in touch. But I think probably more accurate would be the menopause mandate survey that we did last year, 20,000 women, which is quite unprecedented. It leapt up from 6,000 the year before, which just highlights the kind of increase in interest. And what was interesting about that was the things that, you know, we think of as pointers to menopause, hot flashes, for example, that was only 50% of women were experiencing them. But 90% of women said that the psychological impact was actually the worst thing. Things like insomnia, anxiety, brain fog. That was a brilliant clip that you played, I think you and

I probably would feel that pressure quite strongly. But that also 99% of the women who corresponded with us, that actually information and a sort of understanding around what they were going through was the biggest and most important thing that they could identify as a positive change that would make the difference for them. Yeah, well, you mentioned brain fog, particularly when you're doing a job as kind of like this. What was your own experience like? My brain fog comes and goes.

And during the period that I was doing a live radio show daily on Times Radio, my desk just looked like a sort of scattering of mad scribblings. And actually, I'd write everything down. If I was listening to someone, I'd have to write down what the question I was going to ask next would be, a scribble and note from what someone had said,

because you just have no confidence in your power of recall. And I think it actually manifests itself less than the worry about whether it will does. But I know, just anecdotally, so many women, friends, and colleagues, that brain fog is really, really impairing, because what it does is it takes away your confidence.

And I think taking away your confidence is in many ways worse than a lot of the actual tangible medical, if you will, symptoms that we go through because it's much harder to explain that. And it's much harder to feel, you know, that you can sort of step out boldly and do your job when your confidence is being eroded on a daily basis. And if there's no place where you can talk about that and feel that nobody's understanding it,

it's no surprise that women, more than half are taking time off and then 10% are actually leaving. So tell me about... The cost is extraordinary. I mean, if you look at the cost to the economy, the cost in earning potential, 1.5 billion a year from women leaving work just because these symptoms go unsupported and the climate, the discussion isn't available. 191 million in terms of profits last, I mean it's, this is not about a moral imperative though obviously I'm very animated by the moral imperative. This is about good business sense and I think that's why yesterday

launching the Menopause Advisory Group it was so heartening to see all these business leaders and businesses, you know, big big companies like BT and Octopus Energy absolutely committed to including women in midlife and making sure that they have a working environment that makes them feel supported. They're not doing that because they're trying to be kind. They're doing it because it makes business sense. And that's the point that we really have to keep reiterating because I think for way too long, women have been treated like a minority in the workplace,

even though we are almost now 50%, hovering around 48% of the workforce. Workplaces are built on a male model, not men's fault. They were the ones who went to work and got paid and got power and glory. And we stayed at home and worked for nothing and made sure that they could do that. But that's changed.

That's changed irrevocably. And women are now 50% of the workforce. And workplaces need to be shaped around women's career paths. And actually actually in the end it'll benefit everybody because if you look at the pandemic and flexible working, initially seen as something that women wanted, now embraced by both sexes with equal gusto and definitely an improvement. But the majority of business leaders are still male and they're never going to go

through menopause. Does that concern you? Is there really a willingness to change and understand what needs to be done? It doesn't concern me because I think every man has a mother, a wife, a partner, a daughter. It's not like we live in separate bubbles, men and women, although sometimes it can seem that way. And I think on our panel, men are well represented, in the panel, men are well represented, in the room, men were well represented. And my experience is that more and more men are understanding. I mean, these are male business leaders.

They look at the profit margins. And if it's costing them money to have particularly skilled, professional women leaving the workforce, employees leaving the workforce for reasons that can easily be adapted and accommodated for, then why on earth wouldn't you do it? I mean it's a total no-brainer but I think it goes back again to this idea that women are the anomaly, that we are the minority and we're not and you know that's why it has to change. I mean I know we're not because there's so many messages coming in.

I'm going to read some out, Marie-Elef. Someone here said, I took a year off work due to perimenopausal symptoms. I'm a teacher and found that I couldn't remember children's names who I had taught all year. Brain fog was by far my worst symptom. I lost confidence in everything I did. It took a while to get sorted, but thanks to me doing a bit of research and the help of a very supportive specialist menopause nurse called Nithya at my practice I'm now back at work and regaining my confidence. So that's that's good news. Someone else has said,

I suffered from hot flushes in an open plan office. I asked HR if I could have a small desktop plan. HR said I would need a doctor's note so I saw my GP who immediately gave me a note for a desktop fan to um a van to expire when I retired. I'm not sure if that's I think she means fan. I'm sure it's meant to be fun. Great that my GP who was female understood even if the mostly female HR didn't. The fan made a big difference but I mean fans can make a big difference to one person but this needs to be structural change doesn't it? Yeah I mean you know there are lots and lots of fine tuning that will make a difference for individual women's symptoms but you know the thing about menopause is the symptoms are endless you know that we I think we've identified about 35 now and it's just increasing by the year so it is actually about structural change it's about an embrace of women as

the opposite they are to the working world, rather than being treated as though, you know, our biology is somehow the wrong biology and needs to be compensated for. And I think that's the fundamental problem. It's the hardest thing to get across because it is really a revolution in how we look at the workforce and that's what's important. I mean I was so interested in the teacher experience there because we have someone representing teachers on the advisory group and that's because you know and also police women because those front-facing you know office needs are one thing, those front-facing jobs are another because you know I mean with a one thing, those front-facing jobs are another because,

you know, I mean with a teacher for example, flexible working isn't really possible. So that's the reason I put together the advisory group is, you know, one person as ambassador is a sort of titular role and it's good because it focuses attention, but I'm not sure how much change you can enact on your own, but with a group like this, we can actually put together tangible, positive, you know, suggestions for businesses, both small and large to adopt that will actually change the culture and the working environment. Who else is on the panel? Who's in the group? We've got large corporates represented, small businesses, head teacher, police superintendent.

I mean, not specifically headteacher but representative of headteachers and police superintendents, we've got trade union representation, we've got doctors, gynaecologists, experts, we've got campaigning menopause organizations, I mean we really have tried to be completely inclusive and try and cover every single aspect of working life and women's working experience because as you and I know Anita, women are now you know present in every aspect of the working world and it's time that the world woke up to that and made space for us. Mariela Frostrup, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. Pleasure, thank you.

Keep your thoughts coming in, we'd love to hear more of your workplace experiences. 84844 is the text number. We also have a statement here from Work and Pensions Secretary Liz Kendall who says, For too long, working women have suffered in silence or stopped working when they're experienced with menopause and completely natural and normal part of life. A taboo and lack of understanding is holding back our nation's growth and it's time to tackle it head on. The first ever independent menopause advisory group will bring together huge knowledge and experience on this vital issue so we can give women the support they need to remain and thrive in work, putting money in people's pockets

and delivering growth for our economy as part of the plan for change." That text number once again, 84844, I'm going to read out another message. Caroline says menopause was largely positive for me because it made me realise what was important and I realised I didn't have to put up with rubbish employers so I left and took time off and now run my own business. The confidence that came with the menopause was a positive. Menopause isn't always awful for everyone. Now the Women's Six Nations culminates this weekend. Old rivals England and France will face each other at the Allianz Stadium Twickenham on Saturday to decide the champions. The victorious side will also secure a Grand Slam for winning all five of their matches.

Scotland face Ireland tomorrow and Wales and Italy face off on Sunday. The match has been postponed because of the Pope's funeral. Well joining me to run us through everything we need to know before the final weekend is BBC Sports reporter, Sarah Orchard-Sahara. Welcome. Morning. Morning. So it's all come down to the last weekend.

Let's start with England and France. Give us everything we need to know. Who's the favourite? Well, the whole of the Women's Six Nations is designed a little bit now these days around the fact that the expectation is that England and France will be playing off every year for a grand slam. It has been this way for a little while. They are two of the best-funded women's rugby nations. Therefore, we do build throughout all the weeks of the tournament towards this fixture. However, going into this, England,

they are the world number one side. They are that for a reason. They are currently on a huge winning streak. They've actually won the last six games against France. They're on a 33-game women's six nations winning streak. And France haven't beaten now since 2018. Now, some of the scorelines have been very close, but in recent years, England are starting to break away. So certainly, are the favourites coming into this. But they do have some injury problems don't they?

They do have injury problems but they're the kind of problems I think any other nation would be so jealous of Anita because quite simply they have such strength and depth. So yes they have lost the World Player of the Year Ellie Kildun. She's a fullback who plays for Harlequins. She's incredibly popular both on and off the field. So losing her, we understand she's got a hamstring strain that she could have played if they really needed her. But the riches that England have because they have this wonderful domestic league, they've got a player coming in called Emma Singh.

Now, she was the top point scorer in Premiership Women's Rugby last season so it's none too shabby a replacement and ultimately the head coach is looking at this and going well we've got a World Cup coming up later this year. We don't need the World Player of the Year to push herself in this one. Let's just bring in this other brilliant player to have a go instead. It's all about the long game. Right let's discuss the other home nations. Scotland, how have they fared through this tournament? Well, Scotland coming into this had great hope. They had a brilliant fixture list because they had three home games against the sides that they're best matched with. And they had

a bit of a shock result back in round three where they lost at home to Italy. And they were really quite honest, it slightly blindsided them. They don't know where that performance came from. And now they're scrabbling around looking for another win on the final weekend against Ireland who are on the up. So, yet Scotland, little bit of a struggle for them in this campaign and they have to hit the ground running when it comes to the World Cup later this year. So, it is not panic stations for Scotland but this is certainly not the campaign they wanted and they need a big performance in that final match against Ireland. And Wales hope to get their first win this weekend. It's been a bit of a

disappointing campaign for them hasn't it? Yeah you're totally right there because they've brought in a new coach called Sean Lynn after all kinds of problems that they've had at the Welsh rugby union. They thought bringing in the new coach would breed different results but ultimately their new coach who came in, a guy called Sean Lynn, very highly regarded in the women's game at league level. He came in a week before the Six Nations started. So how much can you change in a week at international rugby levels? Yes, I think maybe expectations were a bit high in that regard. He's actually sent out a bit of a warning shot to them. They haven't

won a game yet, sort of saying to his senior players, look I've got to pick a World Cup squad later this year, unless maybe performance is improved, you're not guaranteed to be going to that World Cup just based on reputation. So he's starting to shake things up that he really needs a big pre-season with his side to make big changes. They're away to Italy of course on the Sunday, so they'll be happy with an extra day. But it's been postponed, how disruptive is that going to be? I'm thinking about the fans who've booked to go. Yeah I think that the players themselves will be quite happy because they'd have had a six-day turnaround because they played Sunday last weekend. It's the fans that you feel for because they would have had all of their flights, everything booked to get to Italy on

that Saturday. Some would have been planning to leave on the Saturday evening, some the Sunday morning. I doubt there's a lot they could have done about it. But what is good is, despite the very quick turnaround, there's nothing you could do to plan for this. All sporting federations against Italy have been recommended that they don't play and almost all have agreed with that for obvious reasons. So yes, I think the players will be happy to play on Sunday, but yes, very unfortunate, but great that the match will still be on the TV and the radio. So everyone can still follow from home. And Ireland have performed well?

Yeah, they got a new coach a couple of years ago. He's a guy called Scott Beemond and he used to be a coach in the England set up. So he's clearly taken all of his tricks and his secrets with him and it seems to be working. They're not beating the big guns, the likes of England and France just yet, but they're getting a lot closer, you have to say. Half time in their match with England, they were only two points off the pace and they had a big win back in the autumn against the world champions, New Zealand. So you can see incrementally the changes happening. They're not, as I said, not quite with England and France yet, but you can see that coming. And you've mentioned it a couple of times, the Women's World Cup is being held later

this year in England in touching distance of all four of the home nations. How will teams now shift their focus to be looking towards this? Yeah, yeah, we can talk about it a little bit more freely now that this tournament is about to conclude. So what will happen after this tournament is most of the players will look off and have a holiday for around a month and then they will go into this incredible pre-season period in the build-up to that World Cup. It gets underway in August and then the final is back on the 27th of September. Really tough campaign, particularly I have to say for Wales and Scotland who are in the same World Cup group. I expect England and Ireland to

progress through to the latter stages. Scotland and Wales, the way the fixtures have fallen, you say only one of them might make the quarterfinals and get through to what we call the business end of the tournament. But England, they will be favourites for that home World Cup and it is all about how they manage that pressure because I can tell you Anisa this will be my fifth women's rugby World Cup and I have sent England B favourites many times I have only seen them win one of them in my time covering it so yeah lots of pressure. Lots of pressure and lots to look forward to as

well. Thank you very much Sarah for that and you can follow coverage of the Women's Six Nations this weekend across the BBC. On to my next guest. Someone who will be on the touchline of that match between Scotland and Ireland is Emma Wassle. Emma made her debut for Scotland's national team in the opening Six Nations match of 2014. The 30-year-old has been capped 67 times for Scotland

and is hoping to make her come back before the World Cup in England this summer after a traumatic absence. Last September, a benign tumour was discovered in her chest and her recovery has included several surgeries. During this time, Emma also had to contend with the loss of her mother who suddenly died. But despite it all, she's back on the training ground and joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Emma. Thank you for taking time out to speak to me this morning. Thank you for having me.

Your recovery has been called by some as a sporting miracle. I only touched upon it lightly in my introduction, but could you take us back to last year and when you first started to feel unwell? It actually just started as a sore neck, didn't it? Yeah, and I think playing a contact sport, we're very used to injuries. Normally we just know how they've happened, whether it's in a game or in training, but I was in pre-season and very kind of spontaneously, once I'd finished, I kind of got this pain in my neck. Unexplained it was, it felt really random. I was almost like, am I coming down with a cold?

Like, is it a sore throat? There was nothing kind of wrong with my heart rate or there was no swelling or anything. So there was no real reason to panic. But as that kind of day progressed, the pain got worse and I'd kind of convinced myself that something was stuck in my throat. So I kind of thought it was food lodged in my throat, which on reflection seems very silly now, but it was almost the only justification for how I could have got this pain so I don't know spontaneously and that's almost the sensation it felt like something was stuck or lodged in my throat so I took myself to A&E that night and kind of explained at the desk I think I've got

something up in my throat would would someone be able to help remove it or loosen it or something anyway long long wait there. That night was yeah one that I couldn't have really expected ever and it was kind of two CT scans later that they had then discovered that I had had this mass in my chest and yeah from then on I was a bit it was all a bit of a whirlwind. I was hearing kind of medical terms I'd never heard of before a lot. At that moment of time, it was very uncertain what it was, how bad it was, how aggressive it was. And what's going through your mind when you're being told that you've gone in thinking there's something stuck in your throat, you're having all these tests?

Did they tell you that you had a tumour in your chest at this point? Yes, it wasn't until I was kind of, I mean, I was on quite a lot of painkillers at this point and I went up to the High Dependency Ward in Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and that's when the surgeon was like, she has a tumour and hopefully she won't need emergency surgery. And I'm like, I've just come in here to get food out my throat. And I'm lying in a bed with a tumour in my chest. And I think what I've realised is that word is very scary and has a lot of scary kind of connotations that come with it. And I think that was the worst part about it all,

is because I really didn't know what that meant. And I mean, I the worst part about it all is because I really didn't know what that meant. And I mean, I'm generally a pretty positive person and I've always tried to be that way and I will always look at kind of why things have happened maybe and maybe there's a reason I don't know. But in this moment, I just didn't know how I was going to get through or what kind of the future for me was going to get through it or what kind of the future for me was going to look like because of it.

You ended up having two surgeries, including one that meant collapsing your lung. What was it like just taking all of that in? Yeah, I think that actually I got my main surgery to get rid of the tumour was actually a full sternotomy so they kind of opened my sternum and removed it but prior to that before they knew that that would be the safest surgery to take I had to get various biopsies. The way that sat in my chest it's obviously very close to lots of kind of vital organs. They tried to go down kind of through my neck. And unfortunately, I couldn't get enough of the cells.

So the only way they could get into it to get a biopsy was through my rib to go under the sternum. And part of the procedure to get the biopsy that way was, they had to collapse one of the lungs to make it obviously slave. But yeah, I woke up with various chest drains on oxygen. It was a scary time. And I think the worst part about that was I went through what felt like a big surgery and to ultimately just find out what was wrong with me.

It wasn't to remove it. I knew this wasn't gonna help me. It was just purely to hopefully get an answer. So there was lots of waiting after that. How was the waiting? Tough. I think that was the hard, like again, once I know a plan and like I'm again, I try look at the positives, but I was just so uncertain and obviously there's things, words that get mentioned too. I didn't know if it was cancerous, I didn't know

if I would need to go through chemotherapy, I didn't know ultimately how it would impact my life or my rugby playing career and I think that was the scariest thing. I knew that I am fit and healthy young woman and I kind of took confidence in that. So I really didn't try to go to too much of a dark place and I had lots of positive people around me. But it was a tough time. Yeah. And you'd also had to deal with the sudden death of your mum? Yeah, that's, I spoke about, like, the hospital experiences is not one that anyone wants to go through. But truly, it's hard to compare.

They're both equally kind of traumatic. But after kind of going through what I did with my mum, I felt in hospital I was very much strong enough to get through anything. Whether it be, oh yeah, she couldn't be there but I felt very much like I would get through it for her and it's sometimes it's very difficult to be in those really vulnerable situations when you've got family who are so worried sick about you and God I just I always kept thinking I would hate almost if mum would have seen me like this because that would have just been I know how heartbreaking it would have been for her to watch me go through that. But no it was it was tough but I did I had

a lot of strength in me that I would I would fight if not only for me but for her as well. Yeah a lot of strength in you and a lot of strength around you. I've got to talk about how your team came through for you. They really did rally around you in the most kind of traumatic and important time in your life last year, didn't they? Yeah, again, I'm so blessed to be part of a team sport and rugby is one like no other. The teammates, my coaches, my management, the medical staff within within Scottish Rugby and my club rugby as well. They, everyone just wanted to find kind of a way to help me or how they could support me in hospital. Every single day I was in hospital there was a rota to make sure there was someone by

my bedside there was people bring me food, do my washing, sometimes I would sleep all day but I would just someone would always be there and I think yet when I came out of my biopsy surgery and that was probably one of the scariest moments and I've got Rachel Malcolm, our captain and also best friend in Rona Lloyd sitting in the waiting room at 11 at night just waiting to come in to the room and kind of hold my hand, make sure I was okay and yeah there's just been so many situations that I think I feel incredibly lucky to have that kind of group of women around me.

And yeah, the sport has very much pushed me on to get through all of this and kind of come out the other side of it all. It's emotional just thinking about that level of support that there was actually a rotor to make sure you were never alone. There was always somebody from the team. And I've heard you talk about them being your non-biological family. Yeah, again, like, unfortunately I lost my dad when I was very young and then obviously to suddenly lose my mum last year. My family is small, I've got a brother who again, I was determined not to worry so I definitely, he was getting half stories when I was in hospital because I was determined not to worry. So I definitely, he was getting half stories when I was in hospital,

because I was just terrified to worry him. But you had, I had obviously my teammates and my best friends, but it was their parents as well, the way they could try support me. Again, Rachel Malcolm's mum was in holding my hand and being a motherly figure, and yes, it's not about, you can't obviously replace Malcolm's mum was in holding my hand and being a motherly figure and yes, it's not about you can't obviously replace someone's mum, but sometimes having that motherly figure and there was plenty of parents within our team that have reached out and tried to

support me in any way possible. So yeah, I feel incredibly lucky to have that. There's a heartwarming to hear. So how are you feeling now? How are you physically? Good, really good. It's been now six months since I had the sternotomy and the tumor removed. I've very much tried to treat it like a rugby injury. I know it's not, but it was the easiest way for me to get through it. I think we need to get into the mindset of a sports person here, don't we? An elite athlete. Which might not be completely the most sensible way to do it, but I have pushed myself in every aspect.

And I think having a goal of a World Cup at the end of it, there's no real greater goal. But after that surgery, I said, am I going to be able to play rugby again? And he says yes, but just please be careful, like take your time. So I've been really eager to get back from the minute I was out. We've been very gradual with what I've been able to do. But yeah, we're now at the very near stages of kind of completing my return to contact and hopefully we'll be back on the Petro Scotland team very soon.

I imagine the mental recovery is just as important as a physical one and you are incredibly positive and even this interview, you know, your face is sort of beaming and I can see, I can feel the positivity coming through the screen, Emma. But just how are you coping with the other side of it? I know you're treating it as a rugby injury, but, you know, so it's a lot that you've been through. Yeah, I think it's I do. I reflect on it sometimes and think. Golly, but I think

I also have very much had the appreciation of what I went through. I am now on the other side of something which could have been so much worse and there's so, I have a real appreciation for what other people are going through in terms of whether it's tumours, cancer, that like I have a real appreciation for what other people are going through or what they can and cannot do and how their life has been limited and I'm actually in such a blessed position that I've been able to fully recover from this and I've had the ment as kind of support of people around me and in my team and and wider community around that I've just been so lucky and yeah I think

lose it as I said like losing my mum it is probably one of the hardest things I think I will go through in my lifetime for a very very long time and it is built a lot of strength within me but I have been very conscious around the fact that you know that life feels very, very precious, but I've definitely got a whole new appreciation for life itself and probably what I'm doing with my life and playing professional rugby has been a dream since I was young. So I just feel incredibly lucky to be doing it. And you've said you want to be back playing before the Rugby World Cup this summer.

Are you on course for that? Or a bit more recovery required? No, I should hopefully. I think I'd really hope to have, I really pushed to try to be back for this last Six Nations game, but no one was taking me on there. We have a couple of warm-up games before the World Cup, so hopefully make it back for them, because I think returning for the first World Cup game holds probably far too much emotion for both me and my teammates, so I don't know if that would be the best time to make the return,

but hopefully we'll get on the pitch just before then and be in a good position to compete come the world cup. Well, absolutely Emma, it's been really wonderful speaking to you. Thank you for your time and it's really great to hear that you're on the road to recovery. Thank you Emma. Thank you so much. Thank you. Emma Wassle there. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it.

Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do. Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, next Bank Holoday Monday, we are gonna be talking about mistakes. It's a special program and we want you to be involved. We wanna hear about the mistakes you've made

and how they may have changed your life. Is there a mistake you think about today? Or maybe you found out that you were a mistake. We want to hear about your errors and blunders and how you got over them and what impacts they had on your life. Get in touch in the usual way and get involved in our special bank holiday program. The WhatsApp number is 03 700 100 444 or text the program on 84844 and if you fancy dropping us an email then you can go to our website. Now what defines an intimate image? Can a private photo being made public ruin your life even if it's not a nude? For Muslim and BME women it certainly can. The current

legal definition of intimate image abuse, also known as revenge porn, doesn't reflect the reality for Muslim and BME women. The Online Safety Act passed in 2023 defines an intimate state as engaging in a sexual act being nude or partially nude, but non-consensual intimate image abuse can also include material that's considered culturally intimate for the victim, such as a Muslim woman being pictured without her hijab. A Select Committee report from March this year asked the government that they should expand the legal definition to include such images and is fast approaching its two-month deadline to implement these changes. Amina, a Muslim women's resource centre based in Scotland, has also

launched a campaign called Exposed to highlight this issue in conjunction with the Revenge Porn Helpline. Mariam Ahmed, Chief Executive of Amina, joins me now from Glasgow to tell me more. Good morning Mariam, thank you for joining me on Woman's Hour. Good morning Anita. Tell me about this campaign, Exposed, why did you start it and why in partnership with the Revenge P porn helpline? So we deliver the national helpline for in Scotland for BMA and Muslim women and what we had seen was a rise, a 74% rise in calls related to sexual violence and that included

intimate image abuse and that was over the past year. So, but what we did find was that a lot of the cases that we were getting were the women were not exactly protected by law and there was not really much that police could do for them. But also we wanted to highlight that this was the prevalence of this abuse within the community and I suppose it is something that many women are experiencing in the UK and worldwide. So we decided to launch a campaign called Get Exposed that showed the kind of impact of intimate image abuse of Muslim and BME women. So we've created a resource and in that resource it actually explores, I suppose, the impacts of intimate image, victim blaming, honor based abuse and coercion and just all the kind of experiences that women can have when they are a victim of intimate image abuse.

I think it's really important to understand the cultural differences here and how it can impact women from other communities. So I'm intrigued by this 77% rise as well. First of all, why do you think you're getting more phone calls? Why are more and more women getting in touch with you? I think there's a lot of misogyny, I think, in general, worldwide. And I think if you can even look at the online culture, if we're looking at intimate images everyone's got a phone everyone's got a camera and I think it is just so much more easier to be posting online and everyone's got those kind of images but you know the rise that we've got you know we are a helpline in Scotland and I think you know there is a prevalence of domestic abuse and sexual abuse in the

UK in general. So seeing that rise isn't surprising, but it's trying to support that rise and support the women that are experiencing these kinds of crimes. What kind of things are they telling you? Can you give us that specific example? Yes, so I mean, I can give you an example of a case that we recently supported. We had a woman from India and her ex-husband had made several Facebook groups but the Facebook groups that he'd made were from her for example and he'd added all her friends so a lot of her friends thought that this was a Facebook group that she had made but a lot of the pictures that were starting to get posted were a lot of photos of her in quite a lot of revealing dresses,

that it was normally images that she would not be sharing with anyone or her circle. But these were not nude images. However, what she would class them is quite revealing images of herself. But then the images started becoming of a woman being from her back, you know, being completely maybe topless but you couldn't quite see the face. But the way the images were being posted it was being suggested that this was her.

But then again at the same time there was her number was written down there and it was being suggested that she was selling sexual services when that obviously was not true. So even although the images and some of the nude images were made to look like it was her and it wasn't, although there were actual images of her with quite revealing dresses on or whatever. And again, these are private images to her.

She wouldn't be sharing these with anyone else. And so not nude images, but like shaming images can be just revealing clothing or as I mentioned in the intro without a hijab or like as you were explaining a back line or a neckline. And what can the consequences of these images being posted or being shown amongst a community be for these women? Well, I think a lot of her friends and family circle were absolutely horrified. And initially, a lot of them actually believed that this was her and this is what she was doing. So, you know, there was a lot of kind of gaslighting, etc., you know, where, you know, her ex-husband

was like, oh, my God, this is what she's doing. This is so shameful. But also, I think just how clever he was in suggesting that the actual, there was some very kind of suggestive images that were not nude however maybe a woman being backless was her and she was selling services of sex. And I think that can really strip her of her self worth and I think it makes victims having to almost justify their honour and their dignity. They're kind of shamed within the community, shamed within the family. We're finding a lot of victims

have their brothers being sent these images, their fathers, their uncles. So there really is a deep shame that is created within our whole entire community. So what would you like to see happen? within our whole entire community. So what would you like to see happen? I think the recommendations in the committee report are absolutely welcome and the recommendations say that an intimate image should be included that if it is a person's religion and cultural background and it's not something that they would commonly wear or an attire that they would wear or have in public that should be classed as an intimate

image but most importantly an intimate image should really be exactly what the report says a non-consensual image but an image that a woman thinks will be causing her harm. Thank you very much for joining me to speak about that Mariam thank you. We do have a statement from a government spokesperson said, sharing intimate images online without consent is an abhorrent violation that can inflict profound and lasting harm on victims, particularly women and girls. Last year we strengthened laws to ensure platforms must proactively remove this material. We've introduced new offenses to ensure the law covers taking intimate

images, installing equipment or creating deep fake images without consent. Women have the right to feel safe wherever they are, be that online and offline. This government is determined to make that happen. 84844 is the number. I'm just gonna read another text out. We were talking about menopause in the workplace this morning. Someone said women need to speak out for themselves in the workplace. I'm 63 and at one point used to have hot flushes every 60 seconds. I just used to tell everyone, including in meetings, I believe we also have to call it out and force people to recognise it. It's about our own attitude to it too.

Now on to my next guest, Emma Jean-Faqri. Multi-instr instrumentalist, singer, producer, band leader, DJ, Yorkshire last done good. Her musical journey began in primary school playing a cornet. Her parents had bought her from a secondhand music shop. She played in brass bands and orchestras before going on to study music. Her sound has incorporated the widest range of music from jazz and funk to Detroit house and techno, northern bass lines, catchy rock and pop music. She's a regular on six music. She's become an in-demand DJ. She bridges worlds directing the London Symphony Orchestra and performing at Glastonbury.

Emma Jean was last on this program for her album, Yellow, which was awarded Jazz Album of the Year. And she has a new album out today entitled Weirdo. Let's have a look. Hemma-Jean joins me now live in the studio. Welcome. How are you doing? Thank you so much for having me. Congratulations. Thank you.

I've had it on repeat. Absolutely love it. But yellow when I had you on in 2021. Can you believe it's been that long? 2021. I said it was the album of the year for me. And again, you have just smashed it. So well done. Why is it called Weirdo? It's called Weirdo because the seed of it was about not just accepting but trying to celebrate my neurodiversity. So growing up feeling like a weirdo, being autistic and ADHD and always feeling like I never fit in, always feeling othered. I felt like although these things have caused pain, I think they've also made me who I am. They mean that I make the music that I do.

That's also brought a lot of positive. So I wanted to celebrate the other side of that. And then of course the album evolved and became about other things as well. I'm gonna quote something from your Facebook. Well, you wrote this when it was Autism Awareness Day and you wrote yesterday was Autism Awareness Day in brackets I forgot so it's something I don't talk about much about and you probably didn't even

know that I was autistic because I'm really hot really funny and totally way cool I can be all these things not just in spite of autism but because of it so you are talking about it a lot and the importance of it to you but I can imagine it's not easy to live with. No, I often talk about my head being like a bunch of screaming monkeys. It can be a really difficult place to be and, you know, I've got lots of different kinds of neurodiversity, including also OCD, like my head is a bit of a nightmare to live inside, but it's also an amazing place when I can make music and that's

my safe space. And make an album that is an epic 19 tracks long. So tell me about the process of making Weirdo. I mainly just shot myself away almost like going crazy in a cabin in a woods kind of vibes. I lost my partner at the beginning of 2023 and had six months of just doing absolutely nothing, staring at the wall. And I really needed to get back to myself, back to who I was. And the only way I know how to do that is through music. So I shot myself away in my studio, which is in my house, conveniently, and spent an entire year on my own making this record. So like playing all the instruments, recording it, producing it, mixing it. It's all me apart from a couple of features, but

it's like 99.9% me and it was my therapy, it was my catharsis, it's the way I was like processing things and it's my happy place, it's where I can be calm and finally at peace. And you've just made a deeply personal album. It started out about your mental health and a lot of the tracks you say are written almost like diary entries. It's your thoughts. Yeah, some of it is like, even about the food that I'm making.

I've tried to pair stuff together. So there's like, you know, where do you go, which is a track that's like grappling these really big existential questions. And it's right next to a track called fried rice. It's just about making dinner. But fried rice is a brilliant track because when it's that is there anything more comforting than just a big bowl of fried rice? I don't think so. And I think I hope I hope that I really bring light to the duality of grief of just these huge things that are going on inside you and then also, oh, I need to make some

dinner. And it's quite a surreal experience. And why did you want to do that? Go from sort of the sublime to the ridiculous, the bleak to the silly. I really love when things juxtapose and have like these two extremes. I'm quite an all or nothing person anyway, just in everything that I do. So for me, it makes sense for it to be like, you know, bleak, kind of sad lyrics, but then like a jaunty kind of like deep, dirty groove and lots of silliness in there, lots of sarcasm. And that's just the way that I work. I'm always like trying to crack jokes at the worst time. And that's how I cope. And I think people need that as well in order to hear it, to hear like the sadness and

the pain that's in there. It needs to be wrapped up in something a little bit easier to digest as well and then hopefully people can see the full spectrum of emotion reflected back at them from their own experiences as well. Looking back now, because here we are on album release day, thinking back to where you were you know the back to where you were, you know, the six months when you were in your deepest of despair. Now here you are talking about the album and you've created it and you've come through what you've been through or you're going through it.

How do you feel today, right now, talking about it? I can't quite believe it's here. Someone asked me recently, like, did you ever feel like you would make music again? Or did you feel like this album would happen? It's like, well, at one point, I didn't think I would be here at all. So to have made the record, to still be here, to be making something that I think is like a testament to my resilience and like survival instincts, I think is, yeah, I'm just so happy to have actually gotten to this point. I think, kind of doesn't matter in some ways if people like it or not, because making the record saved my life.

It's such an important bit of work for me to have made. So if other people can resonate with it, that's amazing. But just finishing it, I think, means everything. Yeah. And you've done everything. Total creative control. You're playing, you're singing, you're playing most, all the instruments. All the instruments. I mean, incredible.

I mean, absolutely incredible. Can we talk about creative control? Cause your last album you've released on your own label and this time you're signed to, it's a joint, it's Brownswood, which is Charles Peterson's label and one, and you have, still have retained creative control. You can do what you like. Yeah. I sort of said to them, I was like, you know, if we're,

if we're going to do this, I need to be able to be myself. Um, and everyone was totally on board. They're like, you know, we, we like you, we want to sign you. We want you to be you. So it just really fit like a glove. Everyone's so supportive. And I think with this being such a sensitive and personal record, it made sense to have lots of other hands to help, you know, mould everything and release it. And I feel cared about as a human, not just an asset or something to add to the bank account. I definitely feel like, I know it's

feels a bit cliché to say, but it does feel like family vibes. No, that's nice to say. And it's really nice to hear, especially after the interview I've just done with Emma Wassel who was talking about her rugby family kind of get rallying around her when she needed the most. It's important to know that people are supported by people around them. I also, because it's women's hour, we like to talk about all of it. I need to talk about the look of this album because I'm fully approved of the glam, Emma Jean look and the look of the...

Well, tell me about the front cover because you're in a pink bath. I'm in a pink sort of art deco-ish bath. With brilliant eyeliner. Yeah, with some very glam iron makeup and my hair scraped back and there's a rubber ducky, there's lots of bobbles and there's also a toaster perched on the edge of the bath, which is definitely my sense of humor of like bringing that bleak kind of trope forward and I think it's a pretty strong metaphor for the record as well. But you open up the record and you see that I'm there in a towel, I got out of the bath, which is you know kind of what the record means.

You got out of the bath and I'm delighted to say you're gonna play for us now. Yeah. I'm on my feet! Yes! Emma, Jean, Thakri, thank you so much. Thank you. Absolutely incredible. I'm gonna put it out there. Album of the Summer. It's happening. It's called Weirdo. It's out today and Emma, Jean will be on tour from October. Wonderful that you came in, thank you so much. Oh, what joy. I'm going to end with a menopause tweet as it's Friday and we've been talking about it all programme. When I had my menopause, someone says I was a driving instructor whilst giving lessons I'd sometimes have hot flushes.

On one occasion, my pupil was a 17 year old lad, I went bright red, started fanning myself. He looked at me and said, oh, I said I'm having a hot flash. And he said, I know my mum has them. And it gave me a sympathetic smile. There's some good ends out there. Enjoy your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Screenshot. It gave me as an actress, just what I was craving. They were both very mature as filmmakers. This was a film that spoke to a red state, blue state divide. I'm Mark Kermode. And I'm Eleni Jones, and we'll direct you through the intertwined worlds of film, television and streaming.

In the new series, we'll look at Studio Ghibli and summer blockbusters and start with cinema's fascination with doppelgangers. Helped by the one and only Richard Ayoade. I'd quite like to meet more Norwegian Nigerians. In fact, if there's a meeting, I'll happily attend. Screenshot from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children?

Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are. This is what we do. Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.