Woman's Hour - Mentrix; Tech safety in domestic abuse; Sam Roddick; Dating over 60

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

Last year the avant-garde Iranian artist Mentrix released the critically acclaimed album My Enemy, My Love. The tracks Walk and Nature had accompanying cinematic videos, that explored themes of womanhood, solidarity and spirituality, against the backdrop of the horizons of the Iranian desert. Mentrix has now released the single and video 99 Names of God - a well-known Muslim chant, traditionally sung by men during Ramadan, giving it a poetic and feminine context and challenging traditions that forbid women to unveil, dance and sing. The accompanying video is visually striking, but has generated a lot of criticism, with some people describing it as offensive, disrespectful and sinful. Mentrix joins Anita to explain the ideas behind it.This week the domestic abuse charity, Refuge launched a Tech Safety site to help women recognise signs of tech abuse. They say smartphones, tablets, laptops and other electronic devices provide abusers with a means to monitor, contact and stalk vulnerable women and girls, meaning even innocuous devices including games consoles and children’s connected toys can be control and isolate victims. Ruth Davison, CEO of Refuge explains how. Aisha Gill, Professor of Criminology at Roehampton University, expert on violence against women & children in Black and minoritised communities joins her.A listener emailed us, wanting to know how she should go about dating in her late 60’s. So we discuss advice and tips for entering the dating world in older age, and post-lockdown, with dating expert Charly Lester and TV presenter Jan Leeming. Sam Roddick’s mother Anita founded the Body Shop chain in the 1970's, and her father Gordon joined what soon became a multi-million pound business. But the Roddicks famously gave away most of the money they made to causes they believed in, and they raised awareness too - in particular in the 1990’s highlighting the indigenous peoples of Brazil, whose land and way of life was under threat and who were fighting back. Anita Roddick died in 2007, and three years ago, having had her own successful career in business, Sam decided to take on her parents' legacy. She is now reviving their work with indigenous peoples, and in a new project called Choose Earth is focusing funds on female community leaders in the Amazon and elsewhere in Brazil.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We've made it to another Friday and today on Woman's Hour we are taking control of our lives. Whether that's by challenging the conventions of your culture, like the incredible Iranian performance artist Mentrix, who's joining me later to tell me all about her new single, 99 Names of God. Or taking over your family legacy, as is the case with Sam Roddick, who after running her own high-end erotic lingerie company, Coco Del Mare, decided to take over the foundation set up by her mother, Anita Roddick,

the founder of Body Shop, and has now turned her attention, just like her mother, to Brazil and the plight of indigenous tribes. Or if you want to find love in later life, like one of our listeners who emailed in to say, I'm wondering if you have any advice for women starting to look for a new partner. My husband died some years ago. I'm in my 60s. Until COVID, weekends away and holidays with friends took the place of trips with my husband. Now, as we come out of lockdown and the 18-month isolation for single people, the fact I am very conscious of is that being a single person in my home isn't going to change unless I at last consider how one might find another partner or a male friend. So far, I haven't looked at all.

I'm aware of the dangers of being scammed in all sorts of ways on dating sites. What routes are there to finding a new partner? Well, we will be discussing that a little bit later. But I thought, is this something you can relate to? Are you single and worried about companionship after lockdown? Do you have any advice? What's your story? Have you found love later in life? And how did you take control of your love life? We'd love to hear from you. You can text us on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. And of course, you can also email us by going to our website

or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, let's look into trying to take back control if you are in an abusive relationship. Lots of women have spoken publicly about their experience of abuse in a relationship recently. Evan Rachel Wood, FKA Twigs and Spice Girl Mel B is starring in a graphic new music video released today, highlighting the horrors of domestic abuse in conjunction with the charity Women's Aid. While also this week, the domestic abuse charity Refuge launched a tech safety site to help women recognise signs of tech abuse.

They say smartphones, tablets, laptops and other electronic devices provide abusers with a means to monitor, contact and stalk vulnerable women and girls, meaning even innocuous devices, including games consoles and children's connected toys, can be used to control and isolate victims. Between April 2020 and May 2021, Refuge say they've seen an average 97% increase in the number of complex tech abuse cases that require specialist tech support compared to the first three months of 2020. To understand this further, I'm joined by Aisha Gill, Professor of Criminology at Roehampton University, expert on violence against women and children in black and minoritised communities, and Ruth Davidson, who's CEO of Refuge. Morning to you both. Morning. Ruth, I'm aware that what I've just said might have terrified a lot of people. What we're doing this morning is bringing this

to everyone's attention, raising awareness. And of course, we will talk about how people can protect themselves. But let's start by understanding, Ruth, if you could give us some examples of how women and girls are vulnerable in ways which they might not recognise. Yeah, thank you, Anita. And you're right, it's important that we raise awareness of this so people can recognise what is abuse. So examples can range from being absolutely inundated by someone who you don't want a relationship with, who is inundating you through your social channels, through text, through voice calls. It can range from people having their accounts hacked by their partner so that this person knows where they are, knows their private information. Think about how much of our information we have on our devices nowadays, our bank accounts, our location. You

can be extremely unsafe and open to other forms of abuse. And also the threat to share intimate images online and destroy a woman's reputation that can have catastrophic impacts on her mental health and well-being. So all of these are signs of tech abuse and the website that you're right we launched this week helps women recognise those and gives them a step-by-step guide of how they can secure their devices and make their life safer. And in what ways in particular is tech being used in domestic abuse? Tech abuse is a form of domestic abuse. I think historically we've thought of domestic abuse as just violence, and the way for women to stay safe was to abandon their devices or come off social media so that they disappeared in the virtual world.

That's not reasonable and it's not realistic, particularly through lockdown when, as you've said, we've seen an exponential increase in the women seeking help for complex tech abuse. We have been more reliant than ever on our devices to stay connected to communities, to live our lives. Even this interview this morning we're doing via Zoom. Why should women have to come away from social media and away from devices and technology to stay safe? So domestic abuse is complex, involves coercive control, economic abuse, as well as threats of physical violence. And tech abuse, unsurprisingly, is part of that because tech is a part of our everyday lives. Aisha, tell me about the communities that you work with in particular and what you're seeing in the increase in tech abuse.

So since the pandemic started in March 2020, I've been working closely with the police and the criminal justice system in terms of cases that come to my attention in terms of providing support with regards to women and girls from our communities who have reported a range of abuses which are interconnected with tech abuse so sexual abuse, honour based violence, forced marriage and have reported compromising images that are actually being shared on multiple media platforms without their consent. And in these kinds of cases, there are also an additional layer of complexity, particularly in relation to women who are being sponsored by their partners to stay in the country. So they are using these compromising images as a form of weaponising, a form of coercive control,

to hold them locked in violent relationships. And an example of this is a case that I've just finished dealing with in the north of England, in relation to a case of an Asian woman, for example, who is in fear of her citizenship application is going through the system. And she is really, really scared because her Facebook, her online presence has been hacked. And the perpetrator has used the currency of honour and shame to frighten her and say that you know you must go back and if you don't go back I'm going to make sure that you know you all your family back home are on alert so that you cannot get away with it so there's a mismatchment a beer shard and politics around weaponization of tech

abuse that's taking place in our communities and these are all as Ruth has highlighted these this is a form of gender-based violence because it's tracking victims online and and that compounds other aspects and it heightens other forms of abuses in terms of self-harm ideation post-traumatic stress disorder and and I think in the communities that i work with i'm hearing a lot of cases where women are really afraid of and the terminology that's used what would people say if they find out that these compromising images are being circulated so i think we need to be looking not only at the legislation but also looking at preventative mechanisms that protect victims in our communities.

And the Domestic Abuse, what was the bill, has now become the Domestic Abuse Act. Has it gone far enough for you, Aisha? Well, I mean, there are real opportunities in terms of the legislation, in terms of recognition and definition issues around domestic violence and abuse. You know, the government has gone as far as saying it's landmark legislation of recognition and definition issues around domestic violence and abuse. The government has gone as far as saying it's landmark legislation in terms of being transformative in terms of offering protections to victims and survivors. Non-strangulation, fatal strangulation has been introduced.

Other forms of recognition around government commitment to legal duties, around providing emergency accommodation, protection for children and victims in terms of cross-examination in relation to the family courts and civil courts as well. There is however a significant, convolvulus gap in terms of a missed opportunity in terms of protection. And that relates to specifically to the experiences of migrants, victims of abuse in relation to no recourse to public funds. There has been a real, real problem with that. And despite various amendments that have taken place prior to the Royal Assent, it just has not gone far enough. So that is a real concern for End Violence Against

Women coalition colleagues and frontline activists, particularly given that in the kind of structural aspect of racism and gender inequalities, that this act in many ways is not transformative enough and therefore is a significant missed opportunity. Ruth, I mean, it did take a long time to be passed. And as Aisha has highlighted, gains have been made, but has it gone far enough? Yeah, well, I agree with Aisha. I mean, it is important that we recognise this is the culmination of years of campaigning by grassroots activists and women's organisations. And there are some significant gains, specifically in relation to tech, the inclusion of the threat to share compromising images

and intimate images being made a crime. That is a real step forward and speaks exactly to the point Aisha was making about the shame and the stigmatisation that women can face when someone threatens to share their images. Previously, it was only the sharing that was a crime. So that closes that loophole. But I completely agree with Aisha. You know, women who are already more marginalised have been left out of this act and that is a huge gaping omission. Migrant women, many of whom may have been fleeing abuse when they came to the United Kingdom, are now trapped in

an abusive relationship here, have no recourse to public funds and therefore are trapped. And I think until all women are safe, the campaigning will continue. Because why should migrant women who are already doubly exposed, we're aware of the intersectionality of feminism and racism. We know these people are, whilst domestic abuse is widespread and affects as many as one in four women, we know people are disproportionately impacted. And some of these people are, whilst domestic abuse is widespread and affects as many as one in four women, we know people are disproportionately impacted. And some of those who are most disproportionately impacted, also women who rely on universal credit, those women are excluded from the protections at the moment. So Ruth, we've talked, we've highlighted this, that tech abuse is out there and actually it's been much worse during the pandemic, particularly for certain communities. Anyone listening to this who's terrified that this might be happening to them, what can they do about it?

Very practically, they can go to the new website that we have set up. It's refugetechsafety.org and look for advice there. If you are even worried that you can't go to that website because someone may have used stalkware and be looking at your device, then we'd suggest you ring Refuge's National abuse helpline so it's open 24 hours a day stalkerware so actual an app that can that can stalk you yeah unfortunately we're aware that this is happening as well so the website we've created has advice for people who are looking for advice on behalf of their friends so if if you cannot look yourself, you can phone the National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808 2000 24 7, or you can go to a friend, use a safe device, or use your phone rather than your laptop, or you can ask a friend to look for the step-by-step

guide. The guide we have includes a chatbot that's in four languages. It tells you step-by-step the implications of the changes you're making and whether that could alert someone who's already accessing your device to the fact that you are now securing it and seeking safety for yourself. So the guide is very comprehensive on the website, refuge tech safety dot org. And I would strongly advise if you feel you are threatened and you want to understand is what's happening to you abuse that you look at the website or phone the National Domestic Abuse Helpline and do that with a friend if you need extra safety. Okay Ruth and Aisha thank you both very much for speaking to me this morning lots of good advice there and if you would like to share your experience of any of this if you have been in a situation where you have been on you know the receiving end of abuse through tech then we'd love to hear your story of course we can keep your names anonymous do email us by going to our website now one listener has been in touch wanting to know

how she should go about dating in her late 60s so we thought we'd discuss advice and tips for entering the dating world in older age especially in a post-covid world and this was the email i'm wondering if you have any advice for women starting to look for a new partner. My husband died some years ago. I'm in my late 60s. Until COVID, weekends away and holidays with friends took the place of trips with my husband. Now, as we come out of lockdown and the 18-month isolation for single people, the fact I'm very conscious of is that being a single person in my home isn't going to change unless I at last consider how one might find another partner or a male friend.

So far, I haven't looked at all. I'm aware of the dangers of being scammed in all sorts of ways on dating sites. What routes are there to finding a new partner? And we've had your messages coming in. A message here from Joy who says, four years ago, when we were both 72, my now husband and I met on a train. Oh, this is like a movie. We chatted for the first 30 minutes and exchanged contact details, and the rest is history. I'd been widowed for nine years, my husband widowed for a year. So my advice is to chat to everyone. Well, earlier I was joined by dating expert Charlie Lester

and TV presenter Jan Leeming, who is sensational at 79 and would very much like to meet someone. When I spoke to her this morning, it was the first time she'd ever used Zoom. Good on her. When we got going, I asked her, first of all, whether she could relate to our listeners' email. Can I relate to it? Yes. I mean, I've been on my own now for far too long and probably likely to be until I die. I have tried internet dating. Today, it's totally acceptable. When I first tried it 15 years ago, the press discovered and whoop! I mean, it was even on Sky News.

I mean, it was so, oh, you don't do that. But not only did the press discover that I'd done it, but for the one and only time, crossed my heart and hope to die, I lied about my age. I was 66 and I said I was 60. So, of course, quite rightly, the press, well, they picked up without even speaking to me. The Express ran an article and then the Daily Mail wanted an interview. Now, that was interesting because the very first question was is it dangerous? Well frankly it's no more dangerous than being picked up in a pub or at a dance

or something like that so long as you follow some basic rules which I've learned as I've gone along. And what are they? Well, on the website, you communicate through an email. You do not give away your private email until you're fairly sure that the person on the other end is genuine. You have a list of questions you ask. I mean, I've learned this by trial and error. And if it gets to the stage that you decide to exchange emails, fine. If you then want to speak to each other, you get his phone number, not the other way around. I have

never, ever been asked for money, so I've never been scammed in that sense. Then if it continues, you meet for a coffee. Coffee, because if you're're bored stiff you can say thank you very much and leave and if it works you can go to lunch and then it's up to you and I'm sure that Charlie is longing to say something because I can see her there in the corner come on then Charlie I mean I mean Jan sounds like she's giving very sensible advice there is she right you know Jan does sound like she's giving very sensible advice um a couple of right? You know, Jan does sound like she's giving very sensible advice. A couple of things I'd probably say. A lot of the apps these days don't work off an email base,

but it's the same premise. Keep your conversation in the app. Then you don't have to give out your phone number. And also it can be moderated too. So, you know, if something makes you uncomfortable, you can literally block someone immediately and stop communication very quickly. And the one thing I would probably say about going on a coffee date is sometimes it's actually too much pressure because it feels like an interview. So I would

probably suggest a walk or something where you're side by side, because it can actually feel quite intense sitting opposite someone where the only inspiration for conversation is literally a cup of coffee in front of you. So maybe taking yourself somewhere where there's some natural conversation starters, like a gallery when it's possible or a zoo. And I always say, go and do something you wanted to do anyway, because then if you don't fancy the other person, it's not a complete waste of your time. At least you're doing something fun anyway. Right. I was already going to come and see the giraffes at London Zoo. You just happened to come and keep me company.

Come on, John, we'd love to hear about some of your experiences. How have some of these dates gone? Do you really? Well, you know, you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to get your print. The first time round, because of the press, I came off it immediately. And then a couple of years later, I thought I'd try again. By then I was 69. And I thought, well, before I'm 70, I'll have a go. And I mean, I did have responses and I did sift through them. I don't know, maybe, maybe men are looking for a much younger woman. But for your listener, I would say please try it.

Maybe I'm too fussy. I don't know. What are you looking for, Jan? And has it changed over the years? Yes. Obviously now if somebody were completely bald, that would be fine because I'm very wrinkled. I would not accept somebody who'd let themselves go. I would be looking for someone who had my kind of interests.

I love history because as you get older, you're not going to spend all your time canoodling in bed, are you? I don't know. Well, I don't know. Well, I don't know. But I have to say at my age now, having been alone for 20 years, there's no way I would want to live with somebody. I would want, I want a romance, if you like. I want somebody to live near me. We can spend time together, go on holiday together, and he can wash his own socks. Very important. Is it a help or a hindrance that you are a personality and people recognise you? Anita, it's a big, big hindrance. There was one occasion about 10 years ago and we were going to meet and then I got an email to say

I think it's too soon after my wife's death, which made me wonder why he'd gone on the site anyway. And it was a lie because he was back on the site the next week. So I think he'd looked up Jan Leeming. And of course, there's a whole load of stuff on the Internet. I have been much married. I'm not a virago. I'm not a horrible person. So, yes.

Charlie, I'm really intrigued to hear your thoughts on what Jan said about older men wanting younger women. You used to run a website for the over 50s. What's your experience? What do you think, Charlie? Yeah, I used to run an over 50s dating app. And honestly, everything that Jan's been saying has been completely correct. I can remember I had a security profile on the app. So I was the only under 50 woman on the app literally there for customer service and on a daily basis I was being hit and hit on by 80 year olds who were telling me oh you're you know the best looking woman on this site ridiculous right because because I was 20 years younger than most of the other women um I had one 87 year old man

complained to me that there was not enough of uh under 55s on the app for him yeah uh so it's I've worked in this industry for coming on eight years and I still think that this is a problem that hasn't been solved and I think it's I think the industry itself has to take some responsibility but men also need to take some responsibility I think as you said lots of people meet online dating I think it's amazing I do think that it's a great way to meet people. But one of the downsides is that we all have these tags. And for women, it's age, which that's why women lie. You mentioned lying about your age the first time.

That's so not uncommon because we know that we'll get filtered out, you know, by men our own age if we don't lie about age which seems such an awful way to start and how do you protect yourself if you are over 50 and out there back out there trying to find love how do you protect yourself and protect your feelings by rejection or being scammed or being taken for a ride like how do you make sure that you're okay so I think if you can involve a friend and they don't need to be a single friend I think that's a really good starting point because actually you can use them as a sounding board for things like your profile one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they try and oversell themselves on their profile so they'll choose these pictures which are maybe 20 years old and don't look like them anymore and actually having a brutally honest

friend who says you know what that's not really the best photo of you these days let's use this one and I think that that is really helpful it also means you've got someone you can check in with when something goes well when something goes bad there's someone kind of following your journey and and quite often um non-single friends are the most invested because they end up living vicariously through you and so I think that that's a really a good starting point I think you do need to keep your wits about you. We all do this. We all, you know, get, you know, our heart takes over from our head and you forget that you're talking to strangers. And I think, you know,

Jan was really clear on her rules. Her rules are there because they are specific to strangers. You are talking to strangers until really you've known someone two or three months, they are still a stranger. So just really simple things as the world starts to open up,

stuff like not leaving your drink unattended on a table not leaving your handbag with someone who you're on a first or second date with because you wouldn't do that with someone who had been at the bus stop with you for half an hour so I think just trying to remember that whilst your heart is getting excited and you're saying oh wow you know all these things have aligned and I'm here with this person so I think there's a little bit of that that needs to go on but um I you know, all these things have aligned and I'm here with this person. So I think there's a little bit of that that needs to go on. But, you know, for all the negativity that I know that we've also been sharing, it can be really positive. And there are some great people out there.

And not everyone thinks like these men that I've been saying in their 80s who want a 30 year old girlfriend. And there are, you know, there are lots of people out there who are looking for someone their own age. And don't just go online. You know, as the world starts to out there who are looking for someone their own age. And don't just go online. You know, as the world starts to open up, go and do fun stuff. Go and meet people in real life if there are clubs and organisations. Brilliant, Charlie. Thank you. And Jan, are you ready to get back out there, maybe take a trip to the zoo with somebody? No, I won't do internet date.

Not after this last time. I mean, I think a lot of these people were looking for a nurse. What's about meeting someone in real life, Jan? And maybe you need to go for a younger man, Jan. Well, I must admit, two of my husbands were younger, but not vastly younger. I'm not a cougar. But, Anita, much to your surprise, I don't have much of a social life.

And if you get a widower, my goodness, the women hone in like bees to the honey. So I think maybe I might be on my own till I die. Well, I'm still hopeful for you, Jan, because we just don't know what's waiting for us around the corner. I'm thrilled that we were your first Zoom. You are sensational and come and talk to us at any time. Anita and thank you charlie it was great i wish i'd known about you a few years ago but no i won't do dating again the wonderful jan leeming and charlie lester speaking to me a little bit earlier and your messages are coming through john says i'm 57 my partner is 55 we both found each other before the pandemic on Tinder, of all places,

the last place I would have expected. Please reassure all your listeners, I'm reassuring you as well, Jan, that it's never too late. You just have to have an open heart, suitable caution and belief and a love in yourself. 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to share your experience. Now my next guest is challenging conventions, stereotypes and expectations and producing beautiful music with accompanying videos while she's at it. Avant-garde Iranian artist Mentrix released her new single 99 Names of God,

a well-known Muslim chant traditionally sung by men during Ramadan but she's giving it a poetic and feminine context and she joins us now from Berlin. Very good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. And Eid Mubarak to you and anyone who's listening to Woman's Hour who's celebrating. Thank you. Good morning, Anita. Mentrix, you could have sung about anything.

Why 99 Names of God? It was Ramadan. And this year I'm pregnant. I couldn't participate like I usually do. And I still wanted to. And I always wanted to do my own interpretation of the song, which I heard throughout my childhood and my teenagehood on the radio, on TV. It's been a part of my consciousness. And I never really heard something that I as a woman could really

relate to and and as life just put me on the path of becoming an artist and a musician I thought well here's an opportunity to do something uh feminine with this uh with this song and and yeah just as simple as that I think we should listen to it it is rather beautiful here it is thank you It's so soothing, Mentrix. It's mesmerising, as is the music video that goes with it. It's absolutely stunning. It was made with Tobias Gremier, who's most notable for his collaborations with Björk, of all people.

And you can see that. Describe it for people who haven't looked at it online yet. Well, exactly. Tobias Gremier does these amazing 3D visual poetry, I like to call it. I wanted to make a very modern video to accompany this song, which can be found on YouTube with millions of plays, but often sung by men or actually the most known ones actually don't depict anybody, no figures or anything,

just the words happening in a bit of a, you know, sort of a cheesy typo, something that taps into a lot of false beliefs about Islam. And I thought it's important to challenge that visually because people really connect to what they see and can really engage with what they see. And so I decided that I wanted to appear bald so that people would see that my head is not covered, but yet I'm not showing hair. And I also wanted to appear in a shape that would question gender. So I asked Tobias to do a 3D model of my head and attach it to a male body and have me dance in this she-male appearance. But at the same time, half of my body is almost like letters or smoke swirling around.

You don't really know what it is. So you're challenging, like you say, you're challenging false beliefs. What's the reaction been? The reaction has been, as you would expect, you know, I did attract a lot of hate. A lot of people came forward saying, this is sinful. This is not acceptable. Why would you sing? Drawing is forbidden in Islam. You are half naked. This is sinful. How dare you associate the name of God with this?

And all of these things, you know, are part of a belief system that is absolutely not rooted in the teachings of Islam, but very much linked in this patriarchal values of Mediterranean cultures, and now mostly known as, you know, Muslim societies or communities that have been just passed down to people. And you've lived in a few different Muslim societies and Muslim worlds, if you like, because you were born in Iran, your family then left and lived in France, and then you moved back to Iran. And you particularly talk about the video and how she's not wearing a veil, the hair is not revealed, but the veil is not there. And you've done both, you've worn the veil, you haven't worn the veil. Tell us a bit about your experience. Yes, it was very interesting for me now, you know, with hindsight, being a grown woman,

to realize that I did experience both of these worlds, the secular world that I grew up in, in primary school and in high school and later on for university in France. And then before as a child, and then also later on back and forth, the Iranian society where the hijab is obligatory for women. And it's a very conflictual experience. You realize that, wait a minute, as a woman I do have rights, and you do feel just equal to men. But yet, you realize that depending on which environment you're in, and depending on the rights that have

been achieved for women in those societies, then you're going to have a completely different experience of life. Nevertheless, I was lucky enough that what I experienced did not make me reject spirituality or religion, but it made me rather question people's understanding of what they proclaim to be the word of God. And this is what got me into Sufism and into the study of the Koran. And yeah, this is why I do what I do. And you choose not to wear the hijab, but many women do. Many women choose to wear it out of their choice and they feel empowered and it is part of their identity. That's correct. You know, there are all these like society phenomenons that I think, you know,

whether it's part of your, your immigration process, your integration process, your journey as a human being, seeking for your identity and how you define yourself in the new societies that you live with. But I think it's very important for this awareness to become more known that the Quran does not require a woman to wear the hijab. This is very important. And it's been a, it's a very common knowledge among scholars and debates when you are really, you know, interested by the topic from different angles, not from just your wish to live a life following certain values, you know, and the feel good element of it,

because this feel good element is then again, defined in each society. And I think it's important to be reminded that decency has always been expected from women in different societies, and covering for women has always been associated with this expectation of decency. In lots of societies. In lots of societies. This dates before Islam, this dates before Christianity. And it continues to be a fact in every society today. Now, I understand that some women feel the need

or feel empowered, like you say, to cover themselves. But I think that this is an identity issue. I think it's very normal when we live in the West, but we come from the East. that we reach a point where we feel that we need to have a certain identity and proclaim where we're coming from and manifest our roots and therefore define ourselves. But what I think is very also important to think about is that your identity as a human being is not your color, it's not your background, it's not your culture.

These are all colors and these are all things that give you a certain shape and flavor. And it's beautiful, you know, it makes you come to the table with different things to say, with different stories to tell, you know. But ultimately, your identity as a human being is an essence. And this is what religion invites you to discover for yourself. Mentrix, it's been fascinating talking to you. Come and speak to us again anytime. The single is out now.

Thank you. 99 Names of God. Do have a look at the video. It's absolutely stunning. Thank you, Mentrix. Now, Sam Roddick's mother, Anita, founded the body shop chain in the 1970s, and her father, Gordon, joined what soon became a multi-million pound business. But the Roddicks famously gave away most of the money to causes they believed in,

and they raised awareness too, in particular in the 1990s, highlighting the indigenous peoples of Brazil, whose land and way of life was under threat and who were fighting back. Well, Anita Roddick died in 2007 and three years ago, having had her own successful career in business, Sam decided to take on her parents' legacy. She's now reviving their work with indigenous peoples and in a new project called Choose Earth is focusing funds on female community leaders in the Amazon and elsewhere in Brazil. And I'm delighted to say she joins us now on Woman's Hour to tell us all about it. And we'll talk about it in a minute, Sam. But first, what prompted you to take over the running of the Family Foundation?

Well, I believe that my parents' legacy is one of deep courage. And right now, with the political climate, more than anything, we need like courage and, you know, in a way to step out of our own sense of fear and really claim the future that we envision. And that's what my parents did. They invested in not only fighting injustice, but also seeding hope and projects that actually could answer these systemic problems. And at the heart of that is indigenous cultures. Indigenous cultures have been radically ignored due to systemic racism.

So for me, when I was 17, my mum took me everywhere. I was a part of the journey of activism. So I was born out of the womb of a whole lineage of disobedient women. Fantastic. Yeah. So. Yeah. So you were taken everywhere with your mum? Everywhere with my mum.

So at 17, I went to Brazil, to Altamira, to the gathering, a famous gathering that kind of was protesting this huge hydroelectric dam that was, you know, Sting was there with Chief Raoni and Payakan, who's sadly no longer with us. And she funded that infamous, like, gathering of, like, indigenous, like, I think it was over 600 indigenous leaders who kind of, from across Brazil, and they won. They won the case. They managed to stop this huge, they confronted the World Bank. You know, the indigenous kind of community, specifically in Brazil, extraordinary strategic.

You know, the Kayapé at that time had only been contacted since the 1950s. And by the 80s, they had managed to change the constitution. So once you understand the intelligence, the strategy and actually the capacity to adapt and take our tools, our Western tools, in order to fight, you realise that the resistance isn't just persecution, that actually how they've managed to survive is based on deep strategy and intelligence. I mean, what an incredible experience for a 17-year-old to have, to have activism embedded in you like that. You in brazil at this gathering 600 indigenous tribes uh at the altamira gathering what does that do to you what did that spark in

you well it changed my life massively i think in a way like that was my first understanding of the depth and the lies around colonialization and actually that we're taught such a such a rigid perspective of what truth is and what history is and once you kind of get exposed to cultures that actually have a completely different reality a completely different kind of knowledge base and a sophistication and be able to talk about you know um concepts and ideas and existences that we have no relationship with, like a biodiverse ecosystem. We have no relationship to biodiversity because we corner things based on what we value, and that's including people. So what we value is highlighted, what we don't value, we render invisible and indigenous people are rendered invisible because we don't know how to commodify them. So, you know, the intelligence is vast, it's cosmic, it is like

this indigenous science really is at the heart of climate solution. So the reason why we're not leaning into it is due to this kind of like total rigidity and the blind spot of systemic racism, essentially. And what's changed in 30 years? I keep thinking back to this amazing gathering that you were at because the outcome was positive. It was you managed to stop the dam. But at the same time, you are there as you said, Sting was there. Your mother was there, very privileged white spokespeople there to help, but still come with privilege. How were you very conscious of that at the time? And are you now looking back? Have things changed?

I'm more conscious of my privilege now because I was born into a working class family that came into its own self kind of creative wealth, right? So I come from an immigrant family that was super poor. So I lived like really in a compact, you know, kind of household with multiple lodges. We didn't have a dining room table when I was little. Like, you know, and then my parents, through my childhood, started the body shop at four, but 13 was when it massively shifted. And so now I have, I'm embedded with this,

an incredible amount of privilege and that is a vast separation but like you know sorry um and tell us about the how you're helping the indigenous tribes now because you're back in there you're involved but you are working with female indigenous leaders aren't you yeah I mean there's a revolution of women around the world as women are waking up that we've got a job to be done that actually the leadership of men is inadequate and actually there needs to be a deeper emotional intelligence and one that is based on a embodied truth that the world needs to shift and change and that is happening as well within the indigenous communities

themselves so those who are acting in the most courageous sense, who are challenging leadership, who are calling for, you know, a unity are women. And it's just global. It's a global phenomenon. And it's like a phenomenon of our era, really. And what is happening is while the West is waking up that we need a different economic system, the commodity

companies and industry is going into this existential panic. And there's this massive land grab of indigenous territories across the world. Now, if you think about it, 80% of our global biodiversity is on indigenous territory. And that is no mistake or accident. That is because indigenous people are violently being attacked while protecting those space. They're the obstruction to the land grab of what is last left of commodity. The most richest commodities are on these

kind of bio ecosystems. Now, indigenous people are essentially replanting these ecosystems. They hold the science. You know, your mother was so ahead of the game, forward thinking, and really drew everyone's attention to ethical consumerism. And it's great, Sam, that you are taking that mantle and running with it. And thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour to talk to us about that. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hi, this is Jane Garvey. And yes, this is, it's a free, well, they're all free, but this is an extra podcast. It is, you've already guessed it, a shameless plug for my new series, Life Changing, in which I talk to people who've been through some phenomenally difficult, challenging experiences and come out the other side. Now, each episode is just an intimate one-to-one conversation that I think has taught me, never mind anybody else, such a huge amount about human nature, the best and the worst of it, and resilience perhaps in particular. Now, take Grace. She is a trainee doctor. She was minding her own business in the Westfield Shopping Centre in East London when a man fell from several storeys up and landed on top of her. That incident left her paralysed from the breast down. Now you might imagine that she'd be incredibly angry about that. No, not at all. I don't have any anger, a complete absence of anger.

And people find that really hard to understand. And it almost makes me sometimes second guess myself. Like, is there something wrong that I don't feel this anger that, you know, everyone else does? I'm not out for revenge. I almost feel as if our lives collided you know figuratively and literally and then it separated and i can go months without even thinking of him well that's grace um quite a remarkable young woman i'm sure you'll agree tony o'reilly's story could not really be more different but it terrifying, quite honestly. Tony found himself caught up in a

gambling addiction of quite epic proportions. He ended up lying to everybody he knew. He stole huge amounts of money from his employer to try and find a way back to pay off his enormous debts. Now, the figures in Tony's story are staggeringly high. Here's a clue as to how he got there. There was one particular weekend I started off at €5,000 and I turned it into nearly half a million over a weekend. I got a really good run of events. I had stolen €900,000 at this stage and for me I think I had €462,000 in my online account.

And I said if I can double this, I can fix this situation. And within 12 hours and 31 bets later, which of those 30 were losing bets, I'd lost €462,000 in 12 hours. And then again, you start the whole process again of trying to get that money back. So you can imagine the stress. I could begin to imagine the stress. I can't really imagine it, Tony. I've got to be absolutely honest. I just want to nail these figures down, actually.

So in total, you stole in euros, how much? 1.75 million. Yep, 1.75 million euros. Tony ended up on the run, holed up in a hotel room, contemplating taking his own life. Well, that was when the police found him and everything started to change. Then there's Harriet Ware Austin. Her family faced a quite unbearable tragedy when she was just a little girl. She was just eight when she was waving off her two big sisters, watching as their plane

prepared to leave Addis Ababa airport to take them back home to school in England, but the plane crashed. Both girls were killed and the family and Harriet had to try to find a new way of living and talking about grief, loss and absence. It was just a total turning inside out of life and I always think that we we were two families we had two lives so in a sense when they went we went as well that old us went and we had to find a new a new way of well who we were. And that first ten years was a journey back to the new normality. And, yeah, just completely different. Charlie Wilson has endured a very different kind of absence, quite a lonely one.

At the age of 44, he had a stroke and lost his entire memory, everything. When he woke up, he did not recognise his own wife. I was in this wee room and the nurses called the wife through who pretty much introduced herself to me. I had no idea who she was. She said, hi, I'm Jackie, I'm your wife. And I said, oh, very good type of scenario.

I had absolutely no idea. Well, Charlie then had to relearn everything. And that is everything. Brushing his teeth, tying his shoelaces, a slow and often incredibly frustrating process. And then you can also meet Keith. Now, Keith's a Welshman who grew up working in his adoptive father's business, delivering coal to the local area.

When he was about to become a grandfather, he decided it was time to track down his birth parents. He met his birth mother and she told him the most extraordinary thing, that his father had been a Malaysian prince. Obviously, when she said, oh, he's a prince, well, you know, it absolutely knocks your head off, doesn't it? I mean, I'm talking to you about this now and it gives me the shivers. Yes, well, it's just funny you say that because I've just had one of those moments. And what was it like driving back down the A1 with your wife, having established that she, in fact, all these years had been married to royalty?

Yeah, surreal, isn't it? Keith, just one of the incredibly interesting guests on Life Changing. There's so much of the human experience in this series of interviews. I really hope you enjoy them. Every episode is half an hour, so it's ideal for your government-approved walk, maybe for clearing up after dinner or just for a curl-up in your favourite chair. It's an opportunity to meet some really incredible fellow humans. It's life-changing. All episodes are available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex

stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.