Woman's Hour - Mercury Prize Nominees, Paris Olympic Athletes, Adoption

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

The Paris 2024 Olympics start this evening with the opening ceremony. It's the first time an equal number of men and women will compete in a summer Games. To discuss the sportswomen you should keep an eye out for, Anita Rani is joined by Jeanette Kwakye, a former Olympian herself and now BBC pundit, and also BBC Sport reporter Laura Scott. Adoption England have described an ‘unprecedented’ decline in adoption rates. For the first time in recent years, there are now more children in need of adoption than those looking to adopt. To discuss why, Anita is joined by Sarah Johal, National Adoption Strategic Lead for Adoption England and Hollie Mortimer, who adopted her daughter two years ago. There are a record-breaking number of women on the shortlist of nominees for the Mercury Prize 2024. Eight out of the 12 nominations are women or female-fronted bands. To talk about the impact of this, Anita is joined by nominees Corinne Bailey Rae and Nia Archives, alongside music journalist Mary Mandefield.So much is known about the causes of disease and death in women all over the world – so why are so many women still dying? Sophie Harman, Professor of International Politics at Queen Mary University of London, has written a new book: Sick Of It, that examines this question. She joins Anita to talk about how she thinks women’s health gets caught in the crossfire of global politics, and what the solutions could be.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Now, there's been a decline in the number of people adopting children. I'll be talking to Sarah Johal from Adoption England to find out why this might be. But this morning, as always, I'd like to hear from you. Have you adopted a child? Considered it, but not done it?

Why did you decide not to? What put you off? Was it the process, the perceived problems the child might have having been in care? Was it thinking you don't have the support network or the finances? Or could it be that there are alternatives? Maybe you would have considered adoption but opted for surrogacy or an egg donor. Do you know someone who is going through it right now or has done it? What are your thoughts and experiences around adoption? Be as honest as you want this morning. We will,

of course, keep your identities anonymous and get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me via the website and you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. Also on the programme, the Mercury Music Prize nominations are out. And for the first time out of the 12 nominees, eight are women. Corinne Bailey-Ray and Nia Archives will be joining me later in the programme. And also when so much is known about the causes of disease among women

and many women's deaths could be prevented all over the world, why are so many women dying when they don't need to? Sophie Harmon will be telling us all about her research and her new book. But first, the opening ceremony of the Paris 2024 Olympics starts tonight. And it's an exciting moment for women as this year, for the first time, an equal number of men and women will compete in a summer games and they've come a long way last time the games were held in paris in 1900 just two percent of participants were women our

sporting experts are none other than jeanette quachi formerly an olympian herself and now a staple of the bbc sports courage coverage you'll no doubt be seeing a lot of her over the next couple of weeks and also bbc sports reporter la Scott. Welcome to both of you, or bienvenue, should I say? Bienvenue indeed. Bonjour, Anita. Bonjour. I'm great. Jeanette, what's the atmosphere like in Paris? Where are you? Well, right now, Anita, I'm sat in a quaint little cafe just to the west of Paris. I'm doing a little bit of exploring and doing my last bit of cramming before we go live tomorrow for the live action. But today's a big, big day in Paris with the opening ceremony, of course, happening later this evening. It's very exciting. Of course, I love that you're in a cafe. Of course, you're in a cafe. That delights me.

Laura, are you both together? Are you in a cafe as well? But I am also in a cafe. This wasn't planned. I'm near Roland Garros, actually. So I'm also in the west of Paris, but not in the same cafe, unfortunately, as Jeanette. And we can hear the sirens in the background. It's like we're there with you. Jeanette, is it bringing back feelings of your own time as an Olympian? It absolutely is.

It absolutely is. I think that for a lot of the athletes that are here, if it's their first Olympics, it's amazing for them. It's the debut. It's something so wonderful to behold as an experience. But for a lot of returning Olympians, it's the first time in front of a crowd for some of them, because, of course, in Tokyo, there were no crowds. There were no spectators to watch these athletes and all the hard work they put in over the years. So this is a pretty special Olympic Games post-COVID. Yeah, you competed in the Beijing Olympics in 2008, finishing in sixth place with a personal best time. Amazing. So just what's it like? Are you feeling nervous for them? Are you feeling excited?

What would they be feeling? Unbelievably nervous. Because all the work's done now, isn't it? There's not much you can do now ahead of the Games. The athletes will be competing tomorrow tomorrow I remember back in 2008 watching the opening ceremony back at our holding camp because the athletics didn't start until the following week and it just gets you so excited to see your other teammates from other sports compete and when they win medals it's just so inspiring being part of such an amazing group of people but for a lot

of the athletes they're excited about it. We are, as the broadcasters, of course, to tell their stories as well. So it's going to be amazing. And you mentioned it there, the opening ceremony. It gets us all very excited. So, Laura, what can people expect tonight? We've heard rumours of a Celine Dion and Lady Gaga duet. Can you confirm or deny?

Unfortunately, I don't know but we have had a lot of excitement around them being spotted in paris i think the plans are always kept pretty much under wraps but we know that this is going to be in an opening ceremony like no other because these plans are hugely ambitious to host it not in a stadium like stadium like we're very much used to, but along the River Seine. And it is going to be iconic. I have to say, our hotel in Paris is right on the banks of the river, and the security operation is immense.

We have to show all manner of accreditation just to get through. So they are really trying to keep security high. But I think the hopes are that it will be a truly iconic opening ceremony tonight. Yeah, we can't wait. Jeanette, Olympics come around every four years. Some of us don't pay much attention between them. So tell us, who's looking in good form? Which British women should we be keeping an eye out for?

And we're all going to take notes. Like, come on, get us prepped and ready. Oh, I wish I had the whole hour to tell you about some of the amazing women that are in part of this um this great britain team helen glover is our flag bearer tonight for the opening ceremony she's outstanding on her i'm gonna say her fourth olympics now three children and hopefully going for another gold medal in the women's four boat and she is in outstanding form along with her teammates as well so she's someone to watch out for in the second week of the olympics the athletics gets underway so many names keely hodgkinson being a standout gold medal favorite in the women's

800 meters she's already broken dame kelly holmes's record over the 800 but very recently ran an incredibly fast time the fastest time in the world for six years, in fact. So she is in brilliant form, along with our sprinters, our 4x1 women, which include, of course, Dina Asher-Smith and Daryl Meater. And we have a few world champions on the team as well, Molly Caldry in the pole vault and Katarina Johnson-Thompson in, of course, the heptathlon.

So there are so many names to look out for, but those, for me, in terms of women, are definitely the standouts. Oh, yeah, and a few of those are friends of Woman's Hour as well. Laura, let's take a look at some of the other areas in the Games. Where are some other interesting women competing? Well, we've got so many exciting women. I mean, you mentioned at the top of the programme that this is the first time there's gender parity at the whole Games. And once again, in Team GB, there are more

women than men competing. So lots of good women to look out for. I think a lot of people will know the story of Skye Brown, the skateboarder. She captured people's imaginations in Tokyo, when she was so young. She is still the youngest member of Team GB. She's going to be young forever.

She's only 16. Exactly. She has had a knee injury this year. She was planning, remember, to try and do this ambitious double of surfing and skateboarding. She didn't quite make it in surfing, but she is back for the park skateboarding and hoping to follow up on that bronze medal that she won in Tokyo and perhaps go even better here in Paris. We've also got Andrea Spindolini-Seriex, a really exciting talent in the diving. And of course, Paris is the city of love. Andrea is the daughter of the first dates maitre d' Fred Seriex. But she is a huge star in her own right. She's won

world and European gold. She is also a teenager. She overcame a fear of diving, actually, which nearly made her walk away from the sport. But she is very much a challenger for a medal. And I just wanted to also introduce listeners to a new sport to look out for here in Paris. It's the kayak cross. Now, this is going to be pure chaos, but hugely exciting to watch. If people might be familiar with canoe slalom from previous games, but this has gone another level higher because this is four kayakers all going down a course at the same time. I mean, you've got uphill gates.

They've all got to do this thing called an Eskimo roll where they go underwater. So definitely watch out for that. And Kimberly Woods is the current world champion. So high hopes for her. She's actually printed out a paper copy of the 2024 Paris medals um in the hope that she can replace them um with the real thing if she wins so you know a huge amount of excitement and also I must just add a number of mothers in the team and more than ever before and we've got Amber Rutter the shooter she only had a baby in April

so it is quite something that she has come back for these games. But a lot of mums look out for, including Helen Glover. But yes, just a lot of excitement building ahead of these games for a lot of the Team GB athletes. I love the sound of kayak cross. I'm also into breakdancing, but sadly we didn't qualify for breakdancing. Maybe in four years' time, maybe I'll get into training now. Jeanette, we're not just interested in British athletes here in Women's Hour.

Who are the global stars? A big global star who I'm sure so many people want to see at these games is Simone Biles in the gymnastics. She's just absolutely immense. She currently had a documentary out on one of the streamers where she just really goes into the detail of, A, what it took to be able to come back from the tokyo games where if you remember any does she she described the feeling of the twisties where she couldn't quite

mentally get her brain and her body to engage in some of the really tricky moves but she's back she says she's feeling better and she's feeling ready to really kind of almost redeem herself from tokyo um on the track there's a really exciting and interesting personality in Sha'Carri Richardson in the women's 100 metres. She is something to behold. She is flojo, but for this modern time, the hair, the nails, the speed, the energy of her is something that I think mesmerises quite a lot of people. Quite divisive in her personality, but you cannot ignore the talent of somebody like Sha'Carri Richardson. She is really, really special. And I think odds on for the gold medal in the women's 100 metres for a lot of people, of course, the blue ribboned event. But the Americans are incredibly strong in a lot of events,

especially, of course, the women's basketball as well. They'll be over here too, the USA. So, so many teams to look out for over here. And I just, my mind's going to be blown as I sit there trying to work out where to go next and what to show people. You two are doing a great job of getting us very excited about this. Laura, we must mention Charlotte Dujardin has, of course, been in the headlines a lot in the last few days. She would have likely gone on to become the most decorated British female Olympian at this Games. She's currently joined with Dame Laura Kenny.

Any updates on that? How much of a blow to Team GB's likely medal tally will that be? to become the most decorated British female Olympian at this Games. She's currently joint with Dame Laura Kenny. Any updates on that? How much of a blow to Team GB's likely medal tally will that be? It's undoubtedly a huge blow. I mean, she would have been a gold medal contender both as an individual in the dressage, but also as part of the British team alongside Carl Hester and Lottie Fry. And of course, Carl is her mentor. He's now got to regroup.

So it is going to be no easy feat for that team to win that team gold medal. Becky Moody has valiantly come in to replace Dujardin in the team at the very, very last minute. But yeah, make no mistake, Dujardin's absence is going to be keenly felt here. And I was at her yard only a few weeks ago,

and this is not how we were expecting to be talking about her on this programme. But, you know, it has been a very, very controversial few days, a period of reflection for her. So she's deeply ashamed of that video of her whipping a horse. And the fallout continues. I mean, this has done a lot of damage to the perception of equestrian sport. And tomorrow, Team GB's event riders, who, of course, won Team Gold back in Tokyo, they've got to go out there and start their competition

and try and put all of this to the back of their minds and focus on the job at hand. Certainly, it's all about the focus now. Jeanette, as I mentioned, this is the first time we're seeing gender parity on the field of play. Does it surprise you it's taken this long? And as Laura mentioned for the first time, in Team GB,

there were more women than men competing. Yes, more women than men by about 20 athletes. Isn't that amazing? And yes, it does surprise me a little bit actually, Nita, because what we have seen

with sport over the years is a real acceleration to make sure that there is parity. But one thing that's quite unique about the Olympics is a real acceleration to make sure that there is parity but one thing that's quite unique about the olympics is that women and men have had the same platform for a very long time they compete at the same time they compete pretty much on the same days there isn't a men's women's olympics or women's olympics so it has taken a little bit of time to get to this point

but i'm so glad that we are finally here because what we are seeing is something that in the future young men young women can look and see okay there there's parity here this is a place where it feels safe it feels special and you feel equal to to your male counterparts on the field of play and for a lot of the women as well they are the ones that are shining if you look at the athletics team at the moment all the names that I mentioned are gold medal hopes. And we have significantly more medal hopes with the women than we do with the men. And that's really, really encouraging. Same on the track, in the cycling, not necessarily in the pool, but we're getting there.

You know, we kind of have to make sure that everybody sees that there is a pathway for women in these particular sports. And that is that is really something. All right. Get me into the headspace of these athletes then the olympics only comes around uh every year uh round every year how the how will these women how will they be feeling right now how do they handle the pressure what will be going through their minds a lot of them will be in a bubble we call it the olympic bubble where actually yes it's taken four years or three years based on covid four years to to normally get to this particular point, that the training and the energy and the effort that you put in, not just you, but your team, your family,

is something that you're really internalising. You understand that the stakes are high and a lot of people have put a lot on the line for you in particular to get to that place. And yes, there is a little bit of pressure and the pressure depends on how much you take on externally but if you're in good shape it's a fantastic place to be if you're not in great shape I always try and tell athletes just embrace it be present in that moment because you never know when it might it might not happen again and this is a really important thing it's an Olympic Games a pinnacle of sport for a lot of athletes and you know at the time when I did it I remember not speaking to either my mum or dad in the build-up to it because I just knew how much it meant to them and it would make me quite nervous so I pretty much didn't speak to them until right after

I competed and then the flood of emotion that comes out is is you know is pretty special because they understood I understood that we'd done a job as a team, as a family to get there. So for a lot of families that are coming over as well, they know how important it is. And to pick your family out in the crowd is great. There's 540,000 British ticket holders coming to Paris. And to know that you've got that level of support is great. So for a lot of them in their bubble, training hard, eating well, I hope, sleeping well, I hope,

and not partying too much and getting ready for the best two weeks of their life now partying is post post race um how do you get into a positive mindset maybe this is we can all learn something from an Olympian yeah do you know what positive mindsets are things that you just have to build up over time you know that every day your small goals your small wins are things that you build up and you bank it you know it's a bit like saving money if you like you just you're putting you're putting something in the piggy bank every single day and as you can see that growing you're you you have the confidence in knowing actually I've put the work in so I deserve to be in this position not having that

feeling of oh I didn't do enough it's important to understand that you have small wins every day you've hit your small targets every day your medium goals and then that will equate to some of the long-term goals that you set yourself beautiful life advice yeah definitely i hope so and now you're on the other side you're going to be the first voice sometimes that the athletes hear after their race as you do your interviews so have you prepared yourself for like the the happy really elated face or maybe a bit of a sad face like you know utter despair elation how are you going to deal with it well my role's changed a little bit Anita so my role this year I'll actually be on the breakfast show so that emotional roller coaster I've actually avoided it this year I'm

actually going to be bringing you all the live action um from first thing in the mornings myself and JJ Chalmers from the comfort of the studio on the comfort of the studio. On the comfort of the studio. So Sarah Malkerins will be my normal position, which is the athletics track side. And it's a tough one. It's a tough position to have because you almost, like I say, this emotional rollercoaster that you're on, you watch the athletes,

you know kind of what they've been through, but you have to get the questions right. You know, especially if they haven't had a performance that you were expecting or everybody else was expecting or they weren't expecting. And it's having a level of empathy, a level of warmth, but also you have to be able to be quite critical if they haven't had a performance that you were expecting or everybody else was expecting or they weren't expecting. And it's having a level of empathy, a level of warmth,

but also you have to be able to be quite critical in that moment within reason. So it's difficult. I've been there. But a lot of the athletes, they work and they are prepared for that. But studio for me this time so I can sit back. I love it for you. Get your high heels on. We cannot wait to watch and watch you you thank you so much janet and

thank you laura and if you want to watch the opening ceremony it'll be on bbc one tonight from 5 45 p.m and of course you can keep up with every twist and turn in the olympics across the bbc 84844 is the number to text now i can turn to concern from Adoption England about the numbers of people coming forward to adopt. They've described an unprecedented decline in adoption rates for the first time in recent years. There are now more children in need of adoption than those looking to do it. There are currently 2,410 children with a placement order. A placement order is a court order that allows a local authority to place a child with prospective adopted parents and that figure is a 14% increase compared to the

years 2022 to 23. To discuss this I'm joined by Sarah Johal from National Adoption Strategic Lead for Adoption England and Holly Mortimer who adopted her daughter two years ago. Sarah and Holly welcome to Woman's Hour. We've actually got quite a few messages coming in from our listeners so if you don't mind I'm just going to read a couple out. Hi we adopted three siblings aged 3, 18 months and 9 months. Like all kids they have had their challenges but they are wonderful young adults and have enriched our lives. We've never regretted giving them the life they deserved another one here we're going through the adoption process at the moment we have a biological daughter who is seven months old but have both always felt we'd love to adopt

as we feel we have so much love to give and why bring another child into the world when so many need a loving family the adoption team in our area are lovely and so helpful but we are currently struggling with all the paperwork and seemingly endless hoops we need to jump through to make it happen. It makes being pregnant seem very much like the easy option. I understand the need to do a lot of checks, but the process is so admin heavy, it seems rather daunting. And I imagine a lot of people fall at the first hurdle.

And there's a few more, and I'll read those in a moment. 84844, if you'd like to send me your messages uh sarah tell me about this morning morning morning um what are you what are you seeing what's happening well it's really interesting you were saying they're around a kind of a declining adoption rates and i think in some ways that's actually positive for children because more children are moving in with their extended family when they can't safely live with their birth parents which is absolutely right for children so on the one hand we've got a decline overall in the number of children being adopted but you're absolutely right

we're seeing less people coming forward to adopt and I guess what we're hearing anecdotally is that people are talking about the cost of living crisis Like any new parents in the context of people feeling the squeeze, I guess prospective adopters worry about their ability to cope. This affects their confidence to start the adoption process with some of them holding back and pausing until they've found the perfect time or the right circumstances to start a family. So we do have a lot more children now waiting because we've had that sort of

downturn in adopters coming forward. So we are keen to try and encourage people to think about adoption and to take that first step really, which is what our campaign this week has been all about. Are there lots of misconceptions around the process of adopting? I know some people think it's very complicated. In fact, we just heard from one of our listeners there that they are going through the process, but it's very paperwork heavy. Yes, I think there is a misconception that the adoption process takes years and years and years, which isn't the case. You know, becoming an adopter typically takes around sort of six to nine months. And I guess in a way we have to be rigorous in terms of that process because, you know, the children that come for adoption nowadays are children who have had a difficult start in life they've often experienced uh neglect or some sort

of abuse and they come through the care system so you know we want to make sure that adopters are going to be able to um care for the children so that process has to be rigorous and i was just thinking about the comment from your listener hearing about endless hoops you know we we try not to make it endless hoops there are it is a kind of very process driven kind of um process but it's really important that we do that together you know social workers are work very closely with the families and try and try and work together to prepare them to to get the right child to fit with with their family. Going to read another message out here.

We adopted our incredible daughter when she was 14 months old. She's now three, nearly four. She's clever, funny and has brought us so much joy. We're so happy. The process was brutal though. Social services mine every single aspect of your life from the decisions your parents made about you as a child. Who knows that?

They say in brackets. To every single romantic relationship you've ever had and every element of your finances, very difficult to get through. But we did it and it was the best thing we ever did and all the grief we had around not being able to have our own biological child disappeared. It is interesting, isn't it? When we were talking about about the campaign some of the adopters i was speaking to felt that it was a really rigorous process but actually felt that they were able to explore themselves about their own sort of parenting and the sort of parenting style that they had and how they felt that they'd be able to care for children and felt that it was actually quite a cathartic process and actually felt that it was really important that they were able to

prepare properly for children moving in with them and it's great to hear about the joy and the a cathartic process and actually felt that it was really important that they were able to prepare properly for children moving in with them and it's great to hear about the joy and the excitement and the and the real positives and rewards that can can bring when you pair into child through adoption well i've got holly in the studio with me um holly what was the process like for you i would say that the experience was very similar for us you know the process does feel quite intrusive at times but as Sarah said you know there's there's reason for it and I think it's all about the mindset that you have while you're in the process you know I feel that I got to know my husband so much better from the process just through the answers that he would give the

social worker and those are sorts of conversations I don't think you necessarily have you know about your upbringing or what you would do differently than your parents or a time in your life that you really struggled or you know and they're they're trying to find what's happened to you in your past so that you can connect with these children that have a past and it's not I think it's about reframing your mindset and they're not trying to catch you out they're not trying to trick you they don't you know they don't want to look at every relationship you've had in the past in a negative way it's probably to learn about how you connect or how you relate to people and that will then help you know build an attachment with a child that's interesting so it brought you and

your your husband closer together definitely I feel like it was a process you know, build an attachment with a child. That's interesting. So it brought you and your husband closer together? Definitely. I feel like it was a process. You know, it is, I think stage one is two months and stage two is four months. But, you know, you do learn about the other person. What kind of questions? Things about your childhood.

So they'll like exactly that, you know, your attitude on parenting, your attitude on the world, how, what did your parents do that you know your attitude on parenting your attitude on the world how what did your parents do that you wouldn't do you know how would you parent your children differently in future or is there anything they've done that you think made you who you are and you definitely would do um and those are things i don't i don't really think people sit down and have those conversations necessarily why did you choose to adopt? It's something that I've always wanted to do. I've just felt a calling to adopt and to open my home, my heart to other children. And I think I grew up in a blended family, which is now becoming, you know, you see much more blended families families but when I was growing up in the 90s it wasn't wasn't quite so much of a thing but you know you have a stepdad that you're

not you're not related to and I have step siblings and we're not blood relatives and I do have a half brother and a full brother but I would never refer to him as a half brother you know and it's exactly that and I just to me biology doesn't make a family love does and therefore you know that's what these children want is they just want to be loved at the end of the day and a safe home and I just I knew that was something that we could do. What was the reaction from your friends and family when you said you were going to adopt? I think it was a mixed bag actually our family we're incredibly blessed both sides of the family were super supportive um I think they were a little daunted because it's not something that people come across very often and that can feel

the unknown is scary I think for people when you don't know someone that's gone through the process or has brought a child home in that way um but they were super supportive and they've been amazing people do tend to tell you horror stories, though, but I think people do that with birth, you know. They feel the need to tell you their, you know, their sort of birth trauma story, and I think sometimes that happens a bit with adoption. And Sarah, is that something you can relate to, you can understand?

Absolutely, yes. Definitely. I think that it's a bit reminded me of the is it the kayak cross that your previous um speakers were talking about you know that actually adoption is uh it can it can be challenging it challenges it can have ups and downs but there's also lots of excitement and lots of joy and i think you know you often hear about the chaos that parenting can bring and you know whether you're a parent biologically or a parent through adoption there is often a lot of chaos and I think hearing from the people involved in our campaign this time you definitely get the

sense of that but I think as Holly was saying that what's really important is that people often think they're not the perfect candidate you know talking about issues from their own personal life that they worry about which might affect their application. But this couldn't be further from the truth in a way. You know, if people have experienced hardships in their life, then very often they could be really helpful for a child who has often experienced difficult times themselves. So, you know, there's lots of...

That's why the process has to be so thorough, really, because often children will press all the buttons, won't they? You know, they'll know which ones to take. And I think it's really important that people are able to explore that in a safe way before they actually, you know, do adopt a child. And as Holly says, you know, it can be a very positive process. And just going back to the decline, I'm just wondering if could it could any of these sort of figures be due to the uptake in fertility treatments or surrogacy? I would definitely say so in the sense of IVF treatments are available now, aren't they, on the NHS? And in some areas you can have two or three rounds. We do see different patterns across the country.

So in some areas where there isn't as much IVF, then some more people might might be coming forward to adopt so I'm sure that people choose different ways to have their families there's definitely more choice now than there has been previously so that that could also affect the numbers of people coming forward. And what about the support available for adopted children and their families because there's a real need for ongoing care isn't there because sometimes like you know we've been talking about child issues might not emerge until later in life yeah it's really important that adoptive parents are able to be open to learning and access to support and there is a you know whole range of support available from practical financial support therapeutic support support around education issues and there's support not just from the moment that you come into adoption in terms of

the assessment process, but right through until children become adults because adoption is a lifelong process and some of these children do go on to have additional needs as they grow up and need to access support. Holly, do you feel supported? I do, actually. We've accessed some brilliant support through the Adoption Support Fund,

which each child has access to. For our daughter, we've had psychoanalytical one-on-one parenting sessions. And there was also an adoption play therapy group every week run by Chorus. And that was phenomenal. And your daughter is now three? She's going to be three end of August. And you're due to deliver your baby in a week? Yeah, about five days is my due date.

And, you know, sometimes people say, well, you know, if they've had their biological child first and considering adoption, could we love our adoptive child as much as our biological child? How do you feel about the whole? It's funny because I have the opposite. So I'm worried that I won't love my biological child

as much as I love her. So I'm a bit like, oh gosh, what if I just don him but uh I've we've met a lot of adopters through the community that have you know have both have a biological child and a an adopted child and they all say that their love for the children is exactly the same um you know in the end it's just they're your children and you adore them and that's what I really want people to think about is that you know you can do both you don't have to choose a path how do you know how do you know if it's right for you I think if you're thinking about it it is if if you've thought about it you've always been thinking about it there's something calling you to that and I think definitely you know read more about it the you can adopt campaign their website um you know their new campaign the journey it's got some great information and some really good resources and just go and go and read about

it and see how you feel thank you so much holly for coming and speaking to me and and to you sarah as well um 84844 is the number to text so many messages coming in on this um somebody says here blocked care and compassion fatigue are very real and people thinking of adopting need to be so aware of how different an experience is from a biological parenting. It's very different to what you were just saying there, Holly. The joys are still there, but it's hard. We must acknowledge that more openly. Someone else says we adopted two brothers in 2004. They were four and five and a half in age.

When I heard your stats on today's program, my heart went out to those children. And all I felt was I would do it all again if I could. Hope people feel able to explore that if this is for them, we have to give a lot, but you get back joy. And our two sons now have their own babies born this year. Oh, congratulations to you. Keep your thoughts and messages coming in. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now. Mark your diaries. It's Listener Week next month. This is the month where you decide what we talk about on Woman's Hour. Maybe you've got a question that's impacting you and you'd like an expert to answer. Whether it's about family dynamics, work, relationships, policy or society. We want to hear from you. In the past, Listener Week has focused on all sorts of questions like these, from whether or not we should introduce a universal basic income to how the rise in AI will transform jobs for women. So if you have a question that you want looked at,

you can get in touch with us in all the usual ways. 84844 is the number to text or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through the website. And I was going to say, keep it clean, but you don't even have to. It's Woman's Hour. We will talk about everything pretty much within reason. 84844. I can't wait.

I can't wait to hear your ideas. Now, the nominations are out for this year's Mercury Prize. And for the first time ever, there are eight nominees who are either women artists or female-fronted bands. Eight out of 12. That is a record. The Last Dinner Party, Beth Gibbons, Kat Burns, C-Mat, English Teacher and Charlie XCX are six of the female nominees. But we have to say also congratulations to the dudes. Barry Can't Swim, Berwyn, Corto Alto and Getz. But back to the women. I'm going to be speaking to two of the nominees, Corinne Bailey-Ray and Nia Archives in just a moment. But first joining me is music journalist Mary Manderfield. Mary, what a moment we're having. It's very exciting. Before we get into it, just to put into context, what is the Mercury Prize? So the Mercury Prize awards the best album from a British or Irish act or band from the past 12 months. And it's irrespective of chart success,

following or their previous work. They literally just look at one album as a body of work. A group of judges come together to decide and this is our shortlist. And what impact can this have on an artist's career, this particular prize? Yeah, I mean, this was first set up in 1992 as a bit of an alternative to the Brit Awards.

And I would say it's a lot more industry focused it's not really on the same scale in terms of fans and listeners getting involved um just in terms of how the awards are kind of set up but it is a huge nod to that album um and the exciting thing is that it can come at any point in that artist's career so you'll see a lot of newcomers but you'll see artists like Corinne Bailey-Ray who have been making music and releasing albums since 2006. And it can have a really big impact, what they do with it. Last year, we saw the jazz collective, Ezra Collective, win the prize. But previous winners have included Little Sims, Arlo Parks,

you know, names that are becoming more household names now. And what do we know about the judges? Who are they? Oh, we've got a really lovely mix of judges and some who've done it many years in the past. I'll shout out some of the women. We've got Danielle Perry in there, who is a broadcaster and writer. Jam Supernova, you might have heard on Six Music.

We love Jams. We love Jams. Shana Leary, who's on Radio 1. Sophie Williams, who's a music writer and broadcaster, amongst others on there. So it's a mix of kind of music journalists, broadcasters, record label and you know people in record labels as well. And what about the awards ceremony it's a bit different this year?

Yeah so we find out the winner each year in September and it's usually a live performance where each nominee gets to perform a live track and you know you also have like a sit-down dinner and we reveal the winner. But this year we've been told it will be a bit different and the live show will not be happening. All we know so far is that it will be replaced with extensive promotional activity for the artists, but we will still find out the winner in September. And how significant is it

that there are so many female nominees? I mean, I find it very exciting personally and hopefully to the artists involved as well. I would say the past couple of years within the music industry in the UK, we have seen a real kind of intentional effort to put women at the forefront. And we saw that with Emily Evis Glastonbury, festival organiser, who this year we had two female headliners for the first time. The Brit Awards in 2024, really kind of there supporting women. We saw success from Dua Lipa, Ray as well. And we have had, you know, a lot of commitment to kind of festival organisers pledging for a 50-50 line-up

where women are involved. So you kind of see, like, the fruit of all this effort actually is coming through when it comes to these awards. Absolutely. And, you know, even Woman's Hour gets to Clastonbury now. Mary, thank you so much. Actually, who's tipped? I mean, I actually had a little chat with Danielle Perry, who's one of the judges. And she says she's been doing it for seven years. And I was like, can you ever predict the winner? And she says, you absolutely can never call the winner.

I would say The Last Dinner Party have had a lot of success with a Brit Rising Star Award and Sound of 2024 for the BBC. I also think Seema is someone exciting to watch, as well as Charlie Exeax, which you know on the show, global at this point. I'm going to throw in Corinne Bailey-Rayonier Archives as well. Yes, of course. We love them. Mary, thank you. I'm going to throw in corinne bailey ray and nia archives yes of course we love them mary thank you i'm going to bring them in because uh what does it mean to be a female artist who's nominated joining me are two of the nominees uh corinne bailey ray and nia archives corinne lovely to see you i could i if i could start with you um obviously you were joined us on our

brilliant broadcast at glastonbury you were nice to to see you again. So good to see you. That was such an excellent performance. Congratulations. How are you feeling about the nomination? I'm just feeling so thrilled. You know, the Mercury Prize is so important to artists who aren't necessarily being played all over Radio 1 or their record is not connecting in that particular way.

You know, I've had so much critical acclaim with Black Rainbows and obviously got to play the record all over the world. But a Mercury Prize nomination means so much because it means that people who aren't necessarily aware of my work, present work, you know, will be able to pay attention to it now, will be made aware of it. So, yeah, I'm really thrilled with it.

And remind our listeners what your album Black Rainbows is about and why you wanted to write it i wrote black rainbows in response to this art and historic archive in this building in chicago on the south side of chicago which is this um black neighborhood it's a really challenged neighborhood economically and there's an old bank there was going to be pulled down by the city it was saved from demolition by an artist called theaster gates and now instead of being full of money it's full of historic archive it has every copy of ebony magazine that was ever made it has 26 000 books that were submitted to the johnson publishing company who made ebony and jet negro digest it has all the frankie knuckles records and it also has these difficult and

problematic objects from America's past, postcards, newspaper articles and dolls, their images depicting racial violence and racial stereotypes. So it's a kind of, it's an overwhelming place to be in. You're seeing blackness from black perspective, but you're also seeing this kind of distorted circus mirror image that was so wide across America and across the world, you know, generated in lots of different countries. So I went there just as a tourist. But when I left, all I could think about were these stories. And they all turned into songs, you know, these objects,

each object, you know, know there are many many objects that influence the songs on the record how important do you think it is that there are this many women nominees I think it's really significant of the moment and I think it's not just that they're women artists but when you look down the list it's the women are songwriters the women are producers so it's really good for me to see you know obviously as an artist who kind of has been um you know going my first record came out in 2006 I have seen sort of young female artists kind of come and go and often it's because they have a great voice they have a really great personality but if they don't write the songs

if they don't produce then they don't have that solid they don't write the songs if they don't produce then they don't have that solid they don't have that power you know and they don't have the same control of the career and that's what is amazing looking down the list I was like oh she wrote that or she produced that or she's worked with this person she so all these people are in totally in control of their own careers which is brilliant you know I write I produce and so that's what gives you the longevity. Corrin what an album to be produce. And so that's what gives you the longevity. Corinne, what an album to be nominated for as well.

It's a very, very, very powerful, stunning piece of work. Absolutely. And lots of talented women on that list, including Nia Archives. We're staying with West Yorkshire. Nia, congratulations. Debut album. How does it feel? Oh, it's amazing.

Honestly, I'm so grateful and I feel really emotional. Emotional junglers, you know. Listen, me and you both, mate. Me and you both. I have been following you from the very beginning and I'm just very, I mean, you are just having, you've just had such a wild ride this year, haven't you? Yeah, it's been so, you know, this is the dream come true for me.

I feel so blessed to do all these things, ideas I had in my brain come to real life. And it's been wild. I've been able to go everywhere. You know, my music and bringing jungle to different countries uh to the new gen junglers it's been really cool to see and I'm really you know uh glad to be a part of this you know you've brought jungle to the new gen junglers because I'm old gen Nia what would it mean for you to win if I'm being honest I feel like I've won already because what I really wanted was a you know to be shortlisted so I haven't actually thought about the possibility of winning because I feel so

complete with the fact that my debut album which I put so much into you know has been shortlisted and it has been recognized as you know a credible album so I feel so complete already I'm sorry if that's not the right answer no I think that's a perfect answer. And I think it's a very, possibly quite a female answer. Maybe like, I think there's a certain energy and a power just having all of you together on that nomination list is a real moment. Very happy for both of you.

Very proud of both of you. I think you're both incredible artists. But Nia, I have to say, maybe you could come into the studio one time. I'm just going to put it out there live and come and see us. Maybe a bit of a performance for Women's Hour? Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah, I'd be so down.

Let's do it. Wonderful. Best of luck to both of you. Corinne, thank you. Nia, thank you. Mary, thank you as well. The winner won't be announced until September. Thank you.

It won't be announced until September. There isn't going to be a public awards ceremony for the first time ever um but i'm sure everyone will still be partying um 84844 is the number to text i'm going to read out a few more of these um adoption messages that are coming in uh developmental trauma is very real strand of neurodiversity and a massive percentage of adopted children in the UK will live with the effects of this. I'm a biological and adoptive parents. I felt the hoops we jumped through to adopted were entirely necessary. If I were a vulnerable adult unable to parent my child, then I would want adoptive parents to go through a rigorous system. Now, when so much about the causes of disease among women and many women's deaths could be are known and many women's deaths could be prevented all over the world why are so many

women dying when they don't need to a question sophie harman professor of international politics at queen mary university of london has been looking into in her new book sick of it how women's health gets caught in the crossfire of global politics and whether there are any smart solutions out there for how to create good health care for women. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Sophie. I sense a note of exasperation from the title. Why did you want to write the book? Are you sick of it? Oh, I'm sick of it, Anita, let me tell you. I think, you know, the main impetus for the book really actually came back in February 2020. And I was in Freetown in Sierra

Leone. And I'd been there talking to women about what happened to them during the Ebola crisis in 2014 to 16. And I'd heard, you know, all the stories that we then became familiar with in COVID. Domestic abuse went up under quarantine, women were stuck at home with their children, and I'd heard you know all the stories that we then became familiar with in Covid domestic abuse went up under quarantine women were stuck at home with their children more women died because of pregnancy related complications than Ebola and there was this one day that I walked into the Ministry of Health in Freetown and someone said can you wash your hands and we're going to take your temperature and I thought oh no it's again. There's this massive crisis coming down the line. And at that time, we didn't know how big it was going to be.

But we knew that COVID-19 was going to affect women in a certain way, as it did with Ebola, as it did with Zika. And I just had this sense of iceberg straight up ahead. And what have we learned from the past? And what can we do about it? And then that night I went back to my hotel and went for a swim, which is always a great way to think, isn't it? Having a swim. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, right? So there's this massive health emergency happening.

All these lessons haven't been learned. Trump's been in power wreaking havoc on women's sexual and reproductive health rights, not just in America, but around the world. There was a sexual abuse and exploitation scandal coming out about the UN in a different Ebola crisis. And it just felt like things were getting worse. And then on the other hand, I thought, well, I'll read some papers about this. And everyone said, well, you know, that's what you do. That's what you do as an academic.

You can do some reading. And everyone said, well, you know, we've got the data the science you know there were books that were coming out that were great and I thought well it's not just about knowing what the science is we know what the science is and it's not just about putting women into power although you know that's always a good thing it's actually the politics of it it's how women's health is really a powerful tool to acquire and sustain power in the world in lots of different ways.

Explain. Okay. So in the book, there's two ways in which I look at this. It's both how women's health as an issue is exploited. And we know probably the most common people would think about would be the issue of abortion, particularly in the US at the moment. But also how it's used in justifying foreign aid budgets in diplomacy. So in the book, I look at Rwanda, for example, who have been phenomenal at using women's health to brand their country. And also women's health and attacks on women's health care

in conflict as well. So that's the kind of the issue part. So let's take those books separately, because you're explaining this absolutely brilliantly, because it's a big, complicated, and you take on a book where you're going to look at this issue globally. There's a lot to get into. Let's look at R Rwanda because you said there that they've used it this is a positive story isn't it? Yeah absolutely so I think when I started the book I wanted to start with a positive story because you know there is the

exasperated tone and I think people need something positive and Rwanda is incredible so after the genocide in 1994, the government took a really proactive approach where they said, right, we are going to boost the health of the nation and we're going to put women's health at the forefront. And it had this terrific transformation in women's health outcomes.

So between 2000 and 2015, there was an 85% reduction in maternal mortality. So you're looking at post-conflict, poor country, that is huge. How did they do it? Well, they did it in a combination of factors. Firstly, they had high-level political leadership from the president, but also they had this phenomenal woman called Agnes Binagwaho. So it can work if you put a woman in?

It can work. It's not the answer? Of course it can work. I mean, it's not It can work. It's not the answer? Of course it can work. I mean, it's not always the answer. And obviously she had a big team. I don't want to do the masculine thing of saying big man solved the problem. Big woman doesn't solve the problem. But she was fantastic.

And she decided that what they were going to do is to say that women living in a country like Rwanda deserve the same level of health care. And they took a kind of very results-based focus. They put a lot of energy into community health work as well. But what I'm particularly interested in is then what happened next. So you have this great transformation. But obviously, I'm an international relations professor. Power is what I get into. They use this reputation to build the country's global brand, as it were. Look how well we're doing. Look how well we're doing. You know, other countries, I would talk to ministers of health,

sorry, people working in the ministries of health in countries like Tanzania and Zambia, and they were getting sent by aid agencies to Rwanda to learn how to do it. And this used to really annoy them because they used to be like, it's a small country, they have all these resources. And then the hidden thing would be, and they also have an authoritarian ruler and people are scared of him. And so I was thinking, well, this is a really interesting thing happening here. You can't criticise Rwanda in health circles.

Everyone's like, it's the poster child. But in international relations circles, everyone's saying, hang on. But the bottom line is that women's health, women in Rwanda are benefiting. Absolutely. You've got so much to get into the book. I've got a few examples that I'd like you to talk to us about.

You include several examples of people and events that have had an impact on women's health. And you talk a lot about Serena Williams, the tennis champion. Tell us more. OK, so actually most of the people in the book i think readers wouldn't have heard of but serena williams i think if you're talking about a book about women's health you have to talk about what happened to serena williams when she had her first child so quite famously serena's written about this so i'm using her first name like she's my friend she's on my aspirations she loves her myself we think oh please thank you um so when serena williams was giving birth to her first child she realized that

something was wrong and she sort of floated it and said something's wrong i need a ct scan and she wasn't listened to and people didn't hear her and they didn't believe her and she had to really push for a ct scan and in the end she got one and she could see blood clots on her lungs and she got the care that she needed and thankfully thankfully, her and her daughter were fine. And I thought what was very interesting about this is when she went public about her story, she used that to highlight racial discrimination within the health sector, but also around the world. So what was happening to black women around the world? And this, to me, is really important to the book because you can't write a book about women's health without mentioning race and racism.

And when I talk about women's health, everyone always says, oh, yes, but it's not because these women are black. It's because they live in poor countries or they're poor, which we know is rubbish. Well, we know that the UK stats are that if you're a black woman, you're four times more likely to die in childbirth. And I think it's really important you raise that because I use Serena's story in the book to actually look at what happened in the UK. And we know in the UK that black women, Asian women, their families, their friends, communities, all knew this was happening.

And it wasn't until the MBRAS study that came out in, I think, 2018 that people started paying attention. So you needed the data. So I'm interested in how this big event with Serena Williams got attention, but also the power of data, that we knew it was happening, but until people had the numbers, no one was actually listening. And very quickly, because you are, you know, you do have students, you lecture in international politics, you've given us some good news,

but, you know, we don't want to be, it's Friday, we don't, give us some positivity. Could you, is there any, what do you say to your students to keep them positive? Yeah, so firstly, there's always something you can do. And you should always spend your vote wisely, spend your money wisely. When people say what they're doing, believe them. Never advocate for women as a means to something else. We need to stop that.

Sophie Harmon, thank you so much. And Sick of It is out now. Thank you to all my guests who took part today. And have a great weekend. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Home Sleuth is a brand new podcast.

Tales from citizens taking justice into their own hands. Trying to solve crimes. Catching bad guys. Living the double life. Not the police. I really wanted to find that person. Can you just tell me where she's buried? Not a victim.

What is ethical? What is the boundary that I should stay within? An ordinary person compelled to investigate a crime or a mystery. There was no one else who seemed to care about what was happening. We'll meet the first internet sleuth. What do you want to do? Change the world? I thought, yeah. A teenage PI. I know details that other people maybe don't see. And a true crime YouTuber going toe-to-toe with the justice system. It's fun, but that's not the point. The point is to make a difference. Holmes Sleuth from BBC Radio 4 Extra.

I think I found him. Like, this is crazy. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.