Woman's Hour - Merope Mills on her daughter Martha, Actor Sheila Atim on Woman King, Women in the armed forces, Truss impersonators

Episode Date: October 8, 2022

Merope Mills’ 13-year-old daughter Martha died in hospital in August 2021. An inquest concluded that her death had been preventable, and the hospital has apologised. Merope, who is Editor of the Guardian’s Saturday magazine, says her daughter would be alive today if doctors had not kept information from them about her condition, because as her parents they would have demanded a second opinion. The award-winng British-Ugandan actor Sheila Atim on her new film ‘The Woman King’. She plays the warrior Amenza, part of the Agojie, an all-female army who battle fearlessly against marauding European slavers to protect their empire in 19th century Dahomay, in West Africa. A year on from the Atherton Review which found women in the armed forces were being let down with a majority reporting they had suffered bullying harassment or discrimination we hear from Emma Norton from the Centre for Military Justice about what progress has been made.As the Prime Minister delivered her first speech at the Tory party confernece, the impressionists have been busy at work. Politicians have always been their lifeblood especially our Prime Ministers. Jess Robinson who does many of the famous female voices for Spitting Image and Jan Ravens from Radio 4's Dead Ringers discuss. . Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. In a moment, the journalist Maropi Mills on the preventable death of her 13-year-old daughter. The actor Sheila Atom on her new epic film The Woman King. We take a look at the progress being made for women in the armed forces following the Atherton review and Liz Truss delivered her first speech as Prime Minister to the Conservative Party Conference. We hear from the Impressionists Jess Robinson and Jan Ravens on capturing our new PM's voice. But first, Maropi Mills' 13-year-old daughter, Martha,

died in hospital in August 2021. She'd sustained a rare pancreatic trauma after falling off her bike on a family holiday and spent weeks being treated in a specialist unit in London where she developed sepsis. As she deteriorated, Maropi and her husband were very concerned by some of the decisions about her care, but were told to trust the doctors. Martha was not referred to

critical care until it was too late to save her. This wasn't a question of an overstretched NHS. The ward she was on was well funded and there was a bed available in ICU. Maropi, who is editor of the Guardian's Saturday magazine, says her daughter would be alive today if doctors had not kept information from them about her condition because they would have demanded a second opinion. An inquest earlier this year concluded that Martha's death had been preventable and King's College Hospital has apologised and pledged to learn lessons from their mistakes. When Emma spoke to Maropi for her only broadcast interview, she asked her what happened after Martha came off her bike on that

summer holiday in Wales last year. We first thought she was just winded. She kept saying, you know, she's a brave little girl, she kept saying, no, I'll be fine, I'll be able to get back on my bike. And she was kind of holding her stomach. And in the end, we realised she wasn't going to be fine. So I took her first to the minor injuries unit at the local hospital. And a nurse saw us, she lifted up her t-shirt. And, you know, there was no blood, there was no cut, there was just this little red ring on her stomach imprint of the handlebar she called the doctor described it on the phone and the doctor said it was just internal bruising and he didn't need to come and see her and even then I thought should I insist he comes and I I didn't but I did make a note of where the nearest A&E was because that hospital didn't have an A&E. I went back to the cottage.

And then as the night went on and she was getting sicker and sicker, I thought, OK, we do need to go to A&E. So we drove an hour to the nearest hospital with an A&E Aberystwyth. We were there all night and they did a load of tests. And in the morning that the doctor came in and said, I think she's got pancreatic trauma. I've only ever seen this in medical textbooks. And I was so grateful that she'd identified it because the problem with pancreatic trauma usually is that it goes unidentified. And at that point, everything just seemed to work the way you want the NHS to work. She was helicoptered over the Brecon Beacons from Aberystwyth to Cardiff which was the nearest

major hospital she was put in critical care there people were really sort of looking after her but there are only three specialist units to treat pancreatic trauma in the country and the one in London is King's College Hospital and so because we're from London we were then helicoptered there the ward that we ended up in, Rays of Sunshine, was very different to the other wards we'd been on and you're reading of what hospitals are like. It was very clean, very well-funded, 18 beds, half of them private. You know, it was glass doors rather than curtains.

Every cubicle had a bed that you could sleep on at night. So before we'd been in chairs next to her bed and and suddenly we were in this extraordinarily you know I've read subsequently that it's a center of excellence for liver and other patients in the country it just seemed like we were in the best place and how long were you there for we were there four and a half weeks really in total. So a long time. Was it normal to be there that long? Yeah, it's a complicated injury. But if they can't connect the two bits of the pancreas,

what they actually do is that they manage it in children in a way that they don't in adults and hope it will heal itself and keep a really close eye on it. Not close enough in Martha's. And let's get to that because she did start to deteriorate. What happened on the key day? Because I know there's a key day that she did deteriorate. She'd started bleeding unexpectedly out of a line in her arm and a tube in her stomach. I know now that that's called a DIC and it's a sign of severe sepsis. But we were told

this is just a normal side effect of infection and her clotting abilities are slightly off. I'm always reassured, reassured for days. After a few days of that, they gave her a lot of clotting products and eventually stopped. And then she started to seriously deteriorate over the bank holiday weekend, which is exactly one of the things I'd worried about enormously because we'd been there for five weeks and you get to understand the rhythms of the ward and the hospital. And the ward took on a totally different atmosphere at weekend. It was much quieter.

The consultants came in earlier to do their ward round and then went home on call so you didn't see them again. And so realising she had this bad infection and the bank holiday weekend that was approaching, I'd said on the Friday to the consultant, I actually said it, partly you think saying it means it wouldn't happen, I said I'm worried about her going into septic shock on a bank holiday weekend and none of you will be here. But the consultant said she wasn't worried about sepsis last thing she said to me on a friday was just a normal infection and she was going to pop back and see martha next week the saturday another consultant came in because the

consultants changed all the time he said this is what it's like with this injury. Infections come and go. The Sunday is the key day. She had a very high temperature. She couldn't stand. You know, she was dizzy. She was in a terrible way. And then she got a rash. And that really set me on high alert because I knew that a rash was a red flag for sepsis. The consultant wasn't there.

I stood over her on one side of the bed and the doctor on the other side of the bed and said, I'm worried this is a sepsis rash. I can just see her little eyes looking up at me, sort of panicked, because it was a very fine line as well, trying to express your concern but not worry her, because she was nearly 14, she understood everything that was going on.

And he said he didn't think it was a sepsis rash. It was a delayed drug reaction. And then he disappeared. And I didn't really see him again. I know he was talking to the consultant at home. I've subsequently learnt twice he called the consultant at home. The consultant decided Martha didn't need a critical care review. He said, it would only increase my anxiety.

No review was necessary. I obviously believe that that review could have saved her life. And that was exactly what she did need. Because she did end up going into ICU yes the next morning so that night I lay with her all night she drank crazy amounts of water the nurse kept coming in I kept saying she's drinking unbelievable amounts of water she came in I said it twice the doctor that was on duty on the ward, having been told, I now know, that Martha was the illest patient on the ward, didn't come and see her once. I'll never understand that decision, whether she was told to avoid us because of my anxiety.

But nobody came to see us. The nurse kept coming in, taking her observations, which I know were bad. And at five in the morning she needed the toilet and she got out of bed and I was just helping her and she had an enormous seizure in my arms just sort of shaking her eyes rolled back in her head and it was pretty terrifying and um I called Iat a screen for the nurses to come and three of them came and she came around they made a fuss of her they did a blood test at that point a sepsis related blood test which they hadn't done the night before the notes say that the

the doctor that was on duty had said, I'll do it in the morning. And it was quite obvious at that point that she had very bad sepsis and then she was rushed to ICU. And within a few hours, we were sat down and told, she's in high danger of death. And a day later, she was dead. Septic shock. I'm so sorry. Thank you. she was dead septic shock i'm so sorry thank you the really shocking thing for us is the extent

to which we were kept in the dark about things that were going on in martha's care i've learned so much you know i should say i'm no i'm no expert on hospitals or healthcare. I can only speak from my experience, which was the experience on one ward, one hospital. And no doubt it's a slanted one. But I've learned an enormous amount about hospitals and how things have run in the year since Martha's death. And my eyes have been opened and I feel emboldened to talk about it because of the number of clinicians, doctors, consultants who've contacted me since. I wrote a piece about what happened to her saying that I have correctly

identified the problems and patterns of behaviour that led to her death, things that went so catastrophically wrong that could have been prevented. Because that's what's very important to state here, her death could have been prevented. And you speaking today again, it's not something I know you feel particularly comfortable to do, is driven by how important it is for people to hear that isn't it yeah absolutely i obviously i would like the systems to change i believe people say that they are already changing i mean there's a there's a statement here from professor clive k the chief executive of king's college hospital nhs foundation, talking about the article you refer to that you wrote,

saying it's moving and profound. It describes a young life tragically cut short. I'm deeply sorry that we failed Martha when she needed us most. Our focus now is on ensuring the specific learnings from her case are used to improve the care our teams provide, and that is what we are committed to doing. But almost before we get to the future and maybe lessons being learned when you look back on the conversations you were or were not having the things you didn't feel you said or perhaps how you were received what do you

want to say about that i feel very strongly that we were kept in the dark, that we were patronised, that we were managed. I think that that is the case with a lot of parents in hospital, that there's a sense that the general public, first of all, couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of complicated care, to which I would say, this is my child. Try me. I'm going to understand it. We weren't told the full picture. We found out things after she died. We weren't part of the team of people looking after Martha. And I think all parents should be. There's a sense that parents need to be controlled, because otherwise they might make too much of a fuss and we can see from the medical notes about Martha that include references to me to my distress to my anxiety that justified anxiety I think we should say yes that I was in some way being seen as a hindrance

when I was trying to express my alarm that things weren't going well. Because also you've written about that some of the staff's attitudes reeks of misogyny, that perhaps you were treated differently as the mother, as the woman. Yeah, I do feel that because the medical notes included references to my distress and one of the arguments for not sending critical care to come and look at her at a really crucial point in her illness was my anxiety. My husband and I took terms to be by Martha's side 24 hours each and obviously more than once I have wondered if he had been there that night,

a man who looks and sounds similar to most of the consultants that treated her. I'll never know. I'll never know. And obviously I have a sense of guilt that whatever the right balance to strike was in kicking up a fuss I didn't achieve it and yes I know you also were tempering what you were saying you weren't always saying what you were thinking or feeling because we do grow up in in this country with a deference for doctors the NHS we're hugely grateful for it's it's. There's a cultural element to what we say and what we don't say. So even when you were saying it, you felt perhaps it wasn't being received. But there's so much more I know you've also thought about you should have or could have said.

Yeah, I mean, Martha ended up in hospital two years after COVID. You know, we'd clapped and banged pots with everyone. The whole conversation was about heroes, what heroes of healthcare there were. And I went into the whole experience naively trusting doctors a lot above my own perception. We are simply, as a society not brought up to distrust doctors, to question them, to make a fuss. And obviously I doubted myself over their experience, but I now really believe we need to stop this deferential attitude towards doctors. If I can, I'd like to say, read this as well, which is a tweet from a doctor someone sent me after I wrote that piece, which says, telling new medical students that they're in the top 0.1% is a big contributing factor to the sense

of entitlement that oozes from our profession right now. Obviously, of course, there are lots of wonderful, self-sacrificing model doctors working today. And I certainly don't want to tar everyone with the same brush. But there is also a deep seated problem of arrogance and overconfidence and doctor knows best that I think we need to challenge. I wanted to just pick up on the fact that you said this at the beginning about the ward you were on, but you've been very clear that what happened to your daughter was not a result of underfunding, of crisis, of some of the usual political points, if you like, that are made about why things have happened or

gone wrong. It's also worth pointing out there are 150 preventable deaths a week in the NHS, you know, there's other figures as well we can talk about, but you're saying this is clear of that? Yes, I'm saying it and the hospital have admitted as much as well. It's, like I said, it was a really well-funded ward, quite different to all the wards we'd been on before. When I say that, by the way, we weren't medical parents, meaning parents whose children have been ill their whole life and know how hospitals work. We weren't then. We had no experience of that. And that was one of the reasons we were so naively trusting, because we didn't know to identify the problems. We weren't used to identify the problems we weren't

used to how things worked but i think that's how a lot of people go into hospital they they they trust and they go in and they want to lean into the system and want to be cared for and there'll be people listening to this thinking please don't blame yourself the way you're saying things like i've gone over again and again in my head would things have been different if paul had been there if it hadn't been me but there there is a part of you that sounds very strongly like you're you're still going over that if I may say yeah I have extraordinary guilt about it anyone would if they'd lay next to their child they lay dying in hospital um I play the tape over and over again, just wanting to press pause and do the thing

that would have changed the outcome. Yes. I do. I do feel that. And I know people will say, it's not your fault. And it isn't. It isn't. Believe me, I blame the hospital more than I blame myself. But I didn't intervene and manage to protect my child, the number one duty of a parent, when she was in danger.

And that will be with me forever. What would you say to any parents who are listening now or the relatives of loved ones that perhaps they're trying to support through hospital at the moment? I would say trust your instincts. Talk up if in any doubt. Get a second opinion, get a third opinion. I think Google is your friend. When Martha got the rash on the Sunday night

and the doctor said he thought it was a delayed drug reaction. I started googling sepsis rash and some pictures came off my screen and Martha, you know, I'd been by her side for some weeks and I was trying to work some of that time and she said, why are you on your computer now? And I didn't want her to think I don't trust the doctor. So I just said, I'm sorry, darling, I shut it. And I went out to say say to a nurse I'm worried he's got this wrong I'm worried it's a sepsis rash and she stopped and she put her hand on me and she said don't google things you'll only worry yourself trust the doctors they know what they're doing a year after the fact I am still absolutely furious with King's College Hospital and the

individual clinicians that let my daughter die a very frightening and painful death right in front of their eyes. You wrote in your piece the most beautiful line where you talked about it's still hard to break the lovely habit of her talking about your daughter yeah she sounded absolutely lovely she was so lovely she was so lovely do you know living with a child for 14 years it's you know she died just four days before her 14th birthday and you know them so well and they are right on the cusp of really living. And Martha was warm and she was witty and she was bright and she was determined. But above everything, she had so much joy in the world. She brought so much joy to the everyday

and she found so much joy in the everyday and she found so much joy in the everyday and she was a pleasure to parent. Maropi Mills there talking about her daughter Martha. Many of you have read the article to which she refers which is available on the Guardian's website, the paper where she works as an editor and And many of you contacted the programme after listening to that very powerful interview. Julia wrote in to say, I've never contacted Woman's Hour before, but have just listened to Merope Mills. What an inspirational lady and how brave to talk about what happened to help prevent another similar tragedy. I cried a lot. Bev says, such a tragic and heartbreaking story, but such an

important message. Hierarchy, deference, complacency, and the insularity of a system can lead to terrible decision-making in a high-risk situation, and it's something I've seen often in my work in the NHS. Carolyn emailed to say, I so hope that Merope speaking out will mean a healthier partnership between doctors and patients and their carers in future. I hate the overworked phrase, in, emailed to say, I so hope that Merope speaking out will mean a healthier partnership between doctors and patients and their carers in future. I hate the overworked phrase, lessons will be learnt, but I really hope they are. And Sarah says, what happened to Merope and her family is the worst thing imaginable. And through all the pain and suffering, she is helping the other mothers, fathers, anyone to avoid the same thing happening to their loved ones.

Martha sounds like the best daughter, best person. I will remember her every time I need the confidence to trust my instincts and speak my mind. Thank you as always for your comments. And if you'd like to get in touch with the programme about anything you hear on the show or anything you may want us to discuss on the programme, you can email us by going to our website. Now, Sheila Atim is not only an award-winning British-Ugandan actor, but a musician, writer, singer and composer who's fast becoming a famous face around the world. In her new film, The Woman King, she plays the warrior Amenza, part of the Ogoje, an all-female army who battle fearlessly

against marauding European slavers to protect their empire in 19th century Dahomey, West Africa, now called Benin. More recently, you may have seen Sheila in the series about slavery in America, The Underground Railroad, and last summer she appeared in a West End revival of Nick Payne's quantum physics rom-com Constellations, for which she won an Olivier. But now as a mentor, she is spiritual advisor to the king and longstanding lieutenant to Naniska, played by Viola Davis,

the formidable head of that female military regiment. She acts, she sings, she's got a biomedical degree, she's a triple threat. I started by asking Sheila to tell us who the Ogoje tribe were. They were an all-female warrior unit in 1800s Benin, Dahomey, and they were the king's guard. They were the fiercest warriors in Africa at the time, and they served to protect their king, protect their kingdom and protect each other. They were often young girls who had been cast out from society. They were deemed unwanted, unmarriable, you know, not fit for other women's duties.

And so, yeah, they had a choice to, as you see in the trailer, a menisca says you fight or you die. And it's a story we have never seen on screen before. So when you got the script, what was your first reaction? Well, I knew I wanted to do it because I'd heard about the project before so I'd heard that it was being made I heard that Viola was cast I heard that Tusa Mbedu was also cast and she was the wonderful lead in the Underground Railroad so when they asked me if I wanted to audition I was like well I want to be a part of it in some way uh it's just about figuring out how did you have to audition

did you have to audition I Did you have to audition? I did. Not everybody did, but I had to audition. But the wonderful thing was that the editor of Bruised, a film that I did for Netflix, starring and directed by Halle Berry, was edited by the wonderful Terrilyn Shropshire, who also edited The Woman King. So she was the one who kind of suggested me to Gina Prince-Bridewood, the director for the role. And Hallie was actually kind enough to release some of the footage as part of their

pitch to me, to Sony, to say that we really want this girl to play the role. And the film, Bruce, hadn't come out yet. So, yeah, there was a bit of a process of kind of getting everyone on board. But it was very quick. I found out within a couple of days. When you heard that this is a story that's going to get made, oh, and also, you know, you just got Viola Davis's name attached to it. I mean, I was going to say, these films don't come around very often.

These films don't come around. This is it. Full stop. Full stop. I mean, there were so many elements. Viola, Gina, the story, Tussauds, the time as well I think the timing you know everything is in its time I believe and we were coming out of a pandemic I just just finished doing Constellations in the West End as you mentioned earlier and that was the one of the first shows

to reopen the West End in the Covid pandemic. So it felt like a really kind of tentatively ambitious time to be making things again and doing so with the full force of production in a way that the pandemic hadn't necessarily allowed people to do for two years. So it felt right. You are a tribe of warrior women, you are hard as nails. And your character is a spiritual advisor, as well as, you know, the right-hand woman of Nanishka, the warrior leader. You are soldiers, but also you are women. And we see sisterhood and we see a relationship

that we don't see between women ever on screen. Yeah, that was fundamental to the telling of this story. I think all of us knew that even before we discussed it, we were all jumping at the chance to create a story that had these 360 characters, these 360 women. we're often turned into an ideal or, you know, a very sort of unfleshed out version of what we could be. Our backstories don't matter. We're fulfilling a particular gaze. So to know that we would have the chance to explore all of that, that we wouldn't just be devices in someone else's story, but that we would all have our own stories within this larger story was just extremely exciting. And, you know, we formed that bond in real life as well. Yeah, it's been a real joy not just to work with these other women, but to also do the press tour with these women, to discuss the project with them,

to hear their opinions and their reflections and to share ideas and also to just see them dressed up in nice clothes. I was just going to say that. I'm clinging on to the entire press tour because it's great to hear you all talking together but also to see what you're all wearing because you look incredible and to see you all out there doing that.

Let's talk about the physicality of this film because you are warriors. Like I say, you're hard as anything. How much training went into it lots uh we trained before we started the project we trained during the shoot um we trained every day we did an hour and a half of physical training with our personal trainer gabby mcclain um and then we would do maybe two and a half to three hours of stunts uh with the stunt coordinator Danny Hernandez um and that was pretty much standard so yeah you were sore for five months if not more um but it was necessary and it was you know Gina had set us the

challenge and said I want you to do your own stunts um she's she's a real advocate of women on screen being athletic she was an athlete herself um and she really wanted us to you know display physical prowess as much as possible and you can just shoot it differently you can just capture all of the action but you you are powerful in it and it is very powerful to watch. Viola Davis said producing the film that stars three black women to get the financial backing for it was very difficult. How does it feel for you to be making cinematic history? It feels brilliant because I still don't know

what the ramifications of that will be, but I have high hopes for it. And I've now seen, now that we've done the press tour, I've now seen up close the responses from people, how it's affected them personally. You know, I've seen little girls dressed up as a Gojira before they've even seen the film. That's because the costumes are amazing.

They're incredible. they're incredible they're incredible gosha phillips did a did a brilliant job um as our costume designer um yeah it's just it you know the things that people have said even before the film was out just again the knowledge of this film existing what that meant to people was so huge and so seismic and so much bigger than me or any of us as individuals who were involved in making this project um and i feel like that's you know if you're able to do that whilst also doing a job you love um and a job that is fun when it's not extremely difficult uh then it's a win-win really and the woman king is on general release as of today and if i may give you another recommendation please search out sheila at him performing tight connection to my heart from the play girl from the north country her voice is perfect it will make you weep and remember you can enjoy

woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m during the week you can listen back subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. This week, we also featured an interview with the former Lioness and now broadcaster Alex Scott. She's just released her memoir, How Not To Be Strong, and she spoke to Emma about the violence in her childhood and how she felt when she read her father's comments in the Daily Mail denying her allegations of abuse. I can visualize it like it was yesterday. And that's the thing as well. So even when my dad left that environment,

we never communicated or you don't speak about it. It's like you try to move on with your life and leave that to decide but it never leaves you and that pain and the struggle still continues and then I suppose as well then those conversations with my mum don't happen she doesn't know that her two kids are in the room hearing everything she's trying to be strong in a totally different way and we're trying to be strong for her but can't help her um but like you said that the visuals are still so there yeah I couldn't do anything and you also as children were you say subjected to to similar sort of treatment and the experience of violence in the home yeah it's yesterday was hard because my my dad's now done a story. And it just hurts again.

I think I'd have more respect for him if he just came out and admitted everything, you know. Let me help you out with that because overnight your father has spoken to the Daily Mail. He has denied ever being violent but does acknowledge he was strict. The quote to one of the quotes to the paper was, he said, I was never violent, that's not just me. I never beat Alex or anyone else in the family or did anything like that. Yeah.

I wanted to give you the chance to respond to that. Do you know what, seeing it here, I actually don't care what happened to me. I actually, strict, if you're saying being beaten with a belt it's just being strict I get I can take that I really don't care about me what I do care is about my mum and the fear and the terror that she had to live in and the fact I was never able to help her in that but what I can do is help her now by speaking the truth and everything I wrote in that book I stand by it Emma because it is the truth and it I almost feel

angry at myself that I'm allowing him to hurt me again by those claims of lying. And I'm sorry. I feel sorry right now. That I've not used my voice sooner. To help my mum. Or any other woman that is in this position. But what he has done. He's lit a new fire in me yesterday. Because what I will do. Is do all I can. to help women in this position so they don't

have the feelings that my mum has carried her whole life or what I have the fact him doing that story well do you know what I hope you're happy because what I'm going to do with that book is I don't even know if it will make money, to be honest. All that money will go to help women. So many of you were moved by that interview. If you'd like to hear it in full, then please do listen back via BBC Sounds. And there are links on the Woman's Hour website

if you've been affected by any of the issues in the programme. Now, you may remember our coverage of the Atherton Review by the House of Commons Defence Committee last year, which found evidence of sexual assault, bullying, harassment and a lack of mental health services for women in the armed services. The government accepted the majority of the findings and agreed to a review this year to check on what progress has been made in bringing about change. The Defence Committee is asking servicewomen to come forward with evidence as part of that follow-up and plans to report back on the findings in November. On Friday morning, I spoke to Emma Norton from the Centre of Military Justice and I began by asking her to remind us of the findings in last year's report. It was really, really shocking and I think MPs and government and the Ministry of Defence were very, very shocked by some of the testimony that they heard. 4,000 women gave evidence to it. There was a lot of information, evidence not only just about things like ill-fitting body armour,

health issues, it went right the way through to really serious, pernicious sexual harassment and sexual offending, including very serious sexual offences. And a lot of women gave evidence that the systems that are in place to help them achieve justice or some sort of accountability or to bring complaints or to formally report them to the military police were just not working effectively and they felt that they hadn't had justice and then what you also saw was the consequences for those women that had been most seriously affected was that they lost their careers and that perpetrators were still serving in the forces. Right so really

really shocking things were found as I said in the in the beginning of this, 64% of veterans, 58% of female currently serving experience bullying, harassment, discrimination. They found that sexual discrimination is gendered, lack of faith in the complaint system, like you've just said. Really shocking statistic that rape case convictions within the military, four to six times lower than in civilian courts. Yes. and that doesn't seem to have changed. While the last year's statistics on rape at court-martial have improved, it's really important to acknowledge that, they are still far, far below the outcomes in the civil system,

which are already, as you know, very bad. So it really is, they are getting really rock bottom justice in the military justice system. And one of the most powerful recommendations of the Atherton Review was that serious sexual offences like rape, sexual assault by penetration, but also child abuse, domestic abuse offences must be taken away from the military justice system and should be sent to the civil justice system. And that follows a series of similar reviews and findings from independent judges. And the Ministry of Defence rejected that very quickly, as they have consistently rejected it.

And I doubt very much that their position on that is going to change. And the other really important thing that came out of the Atherton review was the need to take serious service complaints, those are the internal grievance processes that deal with bullying, harassment, discrimination, a disproportionate number of which of course affect women, take them away from the services themselves, put them in a central defence authority. Now this again is something that has been recommended year on year by lots of different independent reviewers. And again, they have not done it. What they've done, they have made some improvements and there is a lot of work going on. I really want to acknowledge that. But it's on their own terms. They will not give that level,

that quality of independence that external advisors have repeatedly advised them to do. Do we know why? Well, you have to speculate and it will be really interesting to know what they say about it. I mean, they always come up with some sort of fudge answer about, well, we have an independent ombudsman. But if you know anything about the system, you know that the ombudsman only gets involved right at the end of the process, by which point the damage has been done. I think there is a real concern about the level of the problem. There's a failure to appreciate just how difficult and complex it is and the impact that it has on individual women's lives and careers.

And taking it away from the single services, taking those complaints away from the single services would engender a huge amount of faith and trust, would mean more women would come forward and make complaints because we know the majority don't even bother to make a complaint because they think there's no point and that would then trickle down it would then have consequences for people and would it would bring about more widespread change. Okay so things that they haven't done which may take a lot longer and like one of the things that did come out of the Atherton review was the the lack of faith in the complaint system so women aren't even coming forward to make the complaints. But what changes have been brought about? Well, there's a huge amount of work going on at a very high level in the MOD. So they have agreed because there was so much criticism and public concern about the refusal to hand rape cases over to the civilian system. They said, OK, what we're going to do is we're going to improve military policing. So what they've done is important. And it is, I'm sure,

going to improve military policing. And that's got to be acknowledged. They're going to create an integrated called a Defence Serious Crime Unit. It's not bedded in yet. It's not active yet. So we've got no way of knowing how effective it's going to be. And critical to that is going to be ensuring there is a very significant amount of civilian involvement in it because that when it was recommended by two independent judges to be set up it was on condition that there would be important levels of civilian input and we have no idea if that aspect of it has been accepted. So take us through some of the experiences that women have faced during their time in service. How were they treated? Let's hear about the things that you are listening to. they're describing are really serious sexual assaults on units by colleagues or by fellow

service personnel, that once they make that report to the military police, there is in every case that I've seen really serious concerns about the quality of those investigations, so really basic failures in investigative processes. There have been serious concerns about the quality of the prosecutorial decision making. And these concerns that the women have raised with us have been reflected in all of these independent reviews of what's been going on. Then what women are describing are consequences for them inside their units, within their chains of command, for having reported those kinds of offences. And that might range from quite deliberate hostility to just a complete failure to understand what it is like to have survived a sexual assault. Complete ignorance on some parts. And those women are then left to their

own devices. And the other thing I would say is there is in every single case that we have seen a total failure to understand, apply or even be aware of the policy on what commanding officers are supposed to do when somebody in their unit has reported being a victim of a sexual assault, complete ignorance of it. So that is changing because I think partly because these women are coming forward and basically banging on about it. But again, the burden is always on the women to make these changes and to carry them through. And it's a huge burden. And you still need women to come forward. What can we read into that? Well, exactly. And one of the things that concerns me and a lot of other people is that service women

are not allowed to speak to Parliament unless they go and get consent from the Ministry of Defence, which of course is the very institution they would like to criticise. They have to go and get that consent first. Now the original Atherton inquiry got consent from the Secretary of State for Defence for women to give evidence directly in writing only. It's really important to make that clear. They weren't allowed to speak to them, but in writing only and they did. Now we don't know if that concession continues to apply and service women, service men and women, they generally follow orders. They don't break policy. They don't like to do that. And so it's really, really important that they have that reassurance that they can come forward,

that Parliament really does want to hear from them, that there won't be repercussions. Obviously, there are independent charities like ours and there are other organisations like Forward Assist and Aurora New Dawn and they may also be able to help women give evidence if that's useful. General Sinek Carter who was the head of the armed forces he said that they need to encourage a laddish culture to get young men and women to fight on the front line. What do you think about that? It's so disappointing that somebody who's been in post for so long and with such authority said something like that. And to be fair to him, he did resile from his comments a few days later because there was such an outcry of it. It's totally the wrong attitude. This is a question of operational effectiveness. If you do not

encourage women to join the armed forces, if you then treat them very, very badly and don't support them to bring about changes to improve the forces, that is what is compromising operational effectiveness. And you see this time and time again, when people like me, when Sarah Atherton, when other people were raising these concerns, in some quarters it's dismissed as wokery, it's dismissed as, you know, well, diversity and inclusion, roll the eyes, all of that kind of stuff. And it's really, really important to show leadership on this because it's absolutely, as they said, as the Ministry of Defence admitted, it is mission critical. So what recommendations would you like to see from the government? Well, it feels a bit like Groundhog Day because people are making

these recommendations over and over again. I mean, I do want to emphasise that they are doing a lot internally and these cultural change takes a long time to bed in. It will be really interesting and important over the next couple of years to see how it all further beds in. I still think and many people still think civil courts are the best way to go for cases of rape and serious sexual assault. You have got to take serious sexual harassment complaints and bullying and discrimination away from the services themselves. Do what review after review has recommended and take them away and put them in a central defence authority. But for the change to take place Emma you need service personnel to come forward, women to come forward and basically explain and talk about their experience of what's been happening particularly in the last year. So that's what this is about. We want to encourage women who might be listening

today who may have a relative or a friend who is serving to encourage them to come forward to talk about their experience? Yeah, absolutely. And this is a huge opportunity. Thank you to Women's Alpha for doing this, because there's been so little publicity around this. So this is a really, really good opportunity to get that message out. And if those women don't feel that they can come forward themselves, you can do it through a friend, you can do it through a colleague, you can do it anonymously, you can contact us. So I think it's really, really important to encourage people to come forward. Yes, please. A Ministry of Defence spokesperson said,

we've made very positive progress in delivering change and we absolutely are determined to keep improving the experiences of women in our armed forces. The House of Commons Defence Committee will hold an evidence session in order to assess the government's progress on the recommendations of the Women in the Armed Forces Inquiry Report that was published in 2021. We're encouraging serving personnel and civil servants to submit written evidence to the inquiry to inform the session and support our continued efforts to maintain momentum and keep delivering improvement for our women in the armed forces. And we will be following this story and hope to speak to the Defence Minister, Sarah Atherton, in the next few weeks. And a reminder, the deadline for getting in touch with the Defence Committee is October the 17th.

And finally, it was a big week for the Prime Minister Liz Truss, not least with her first speech as Prime Minister to the Conservative Party Conference. Here's a flavour of that speech, which focused largely on her government's pursuit of growth, but also included some of her own story. I know how it feels to have your potential dismissed by those who think they know better. I remember as a young girl being presented on a plane with a junior air hostess badge. Meanwhile, my brothers were given junior pilot badges. It wasn't the only time in my life that I've been treated differently for being female or for not fitting in.

It made me angry and it made me determined. Determined to change things so other people didn't feel the same way. Well, it's been a busy week for the Prime Minister, but the Impressionists have been busy at work too, as they are around these times. Politicians have always been in their lifeblood, especially our PMs. Emma spoke to Impressionists Jess Robinson, who does many of the famous female voices for Spitting Image, and Jan Ravens from Radio 4's Dead Ringers. What did she make of Liz Truss' speech on Wednesday?

The big takeaway for me was the contrast with her demeanour. When you look back to her you know her famous pork markets and cheese market grinning around and sort of you know and which was where i sort of got my whole liz trust character hello you know everybody you're going to give me some applause now and the whole thing has got this sort of soft grin whereas it was almost like she'd um you could see her trying so so hard not to open her mouth narrow her eyes so that she was sort of looking more kind of bond villainy somehow you know there was there was a sort of like she was sort of trying to establish some control over herself. And I thought there was a curious sort of contrast between her untrammelled self-doubt, which I think was always there when she was this sort of, and it's still there,

but she's having to sort of draw back on the kind of her uninhibitedness, kind of, so to speak. That's interesting that perhaps as you get more senior, the voice will change. We've heard about that before, but because of what you're trying to do and in the context of what's been a pretty difficult start to her tenure. Let me bring you into this, Jess,

already laughing at what Jan's saying, perhaps with such- Such brilliant observations. Some awareness. Fabulous. How have you found your inner Liz Truss? laughing at what Jan's saying perhaps with such brilliant observations some awareness fabulous how do you how have you found your inner Liz Truss well I first started doing Liz Truss um on the last leg when they asked me to do her um when she was foreign secretary and actually nobody really particularly knew what she sounded like um They weren't that familiar with her.

And I just I really liked her slightly nasal way of speaking and that croak that she's got and the slightly splashy S's. And it just all sounds I love, Jan, your your observation of her smile. It's like she can't believe she's there. Exactly. Isn't it? And we can't believe it either. And then when she became prime minister, they got me back on the last leg because they went, oh, my God, that was actually really good. That is what she sounds like. It must be quite a good moment to be women working in this field when we do get a woman in charge. And of course, not long ago, Jan, we had theresa may who you also had to get to know well yes um the thing about theresa

was like by the time uh she she she left i mean i i was i mean i had done really well out of theresa may and the whole kind of thing of her tension, because it is funny how characters reveal themselves to you. It's like Jess says, sometimes it's out of, you know, the way they say their L's or something like that. Or sometimes, like with Liz Truss, for me, it was just this character, this kind of, you know, this little girl going, like me, like me. And with Theresa May, I found her so hard to get

until I noticed this tension in her and it was all about the tension the tension in her demeanor in her her sort of inability to kind of play her inability to kind of go hey let's have a drink let's discuss you know she wasn't clubbable and that tension was in her physicality and in her voice and in her throat, which I think was why she coughed so much. Because, you know, if you have to do her voice for any length of time, you do start coughing. And it amazes me that politicians don't get more coaching. Well, yes, she had to be given a cough suite talking about conference speeches. I remember covering it live when all the letters fell off behind her. I was over on my Five Live show then. And, you know, I don't normally have to commentate during

the middle of a speech, but she was being given a cough sweep. And I had to fill in because it's radio, the silence of how that was working. So it was kind of a very odd and memorable moment and very different, I'm sure, from where you're sitting as well, when you have to think about how to get that voice. But it's interesting that the tension allowed you to unlock how to do her. Jess, for you, I mean, is there a tension, talking of that, when you are looking at how women are speaking and coming across, that of course, you know, they're politicians like everyone else, they're now the Prime Ministers more and more slowly, but surely, But do you ever worry about undermining them or their policies? Is that ever a thought in your mind because of how long and how hard it has been to

get women in those positions? Oh, now you're making me feel guilty. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to. No, it's not actually. I think that comes with their job it's it's it's fair game and um it there are you know when i'm doing some celebrities um for example i amy winehouse and because i do lots of sort of singing impressions as well there are some that you do treat as more of a tribute and with more sort of reverence or more affectionately but but not politicians. They are, you know, big enough to look after themselves. And if we can't laugh at them, I think we'll all cry, to be honest. So, you know, I think they're really, they are fair game. And you go for it.

And Jan, it's now, I mean, we're looking across the cabinet. There's a new cast of characters again to get your head around. There's a lot of women in there again. And who are you thinking about? I could already see you exhaling, trying to get to grips once more with the new crew. Well, yes, I am sort of quite astonished by them. I mean, Suella Braverman is, I mean, I haven't got her voice yet

and it's not a particularly sort of idiosyncratic voice, but my God, the content, you know, this woman who has a dream of seeing, you know, asylum seekers sent off on a plane to Rwanda or refuge, you know, I mean, she sort of seems to be styling herself as a Bond villain. I can't, and Therese Coffey is obviously a good night out from the looks of her, pictures of her with a cigar and a glass of wine. I just, yeah, I haven't got to grips with them, but there's certainly this line of cronies on the front of the audience that my brilliant, you know, Therese Coffey, who's going to be getting more ambulances, making sure you get a GP appointment. And I sort of thought, God, don't promise too much. You know, she's promising that

the ambulances are going to come on time, the doctors are going to get you an appointment. She's promising Ukraine will win. She's promising all these, you know, making all these promises that she doesn't know she can necessarily keep. I did feel rather sorry for all these people on the front row who were then sort of being asked to kind of fulfil these promises. It's a completely different way, of course,

of listening to political content and how to understand it and how to bring it to life and find the humour in it. Jess, a final one to you. Is there anyone you've never managed to nail in, certainly in the political world or one that you got after a lot of trying? That's a really good question. I think, I wish that I could do men.

The only man I can do is a little bit of Joe Pasquale. But, you know, I wish that we could also, I don't have the timbre in my voice I can't it sounds like the equivalent of um Monty Python being ladies do you know I mean I just can't I can't get I just can't get my voice that low but I would love to be able to do all of the male politicians because they're fair game as well and why shouldn't women be having a go at them as well well it's it's interesting to hear what you you would hanker after and and also to to get your because they're fair game as well. And why shouldn't women be having a go at them as well? It's interesting to hear what you would hanker after.

And also to get your take, the way that you watch and listen to these sorts of events, because it is going to be very different. Of course, at the same time, it is comedy. You poke it right across the political parties, the political spectrum. And you're listening to something that people want to get the content of, but equally they do also want to have some laughter in there.

And it is a rich tradition. Jess Robinson, lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you. Jan, thank you to you as well. It's wonderful to hear you, as I say, in your own voice as well as the ones that you're... Yes. And I was actually, I just have to say, I was actually very pleased when you took over on Woman's Hour, Emma, because I could never, ever do Jenny Murray because she was so deep and so throaty.

And I was sounding like Joanna Lumley when I was when I was finding Jenny, Jenny Murray. So now you've taken over with that. So you've got that slight sort of, you know, thing in there where it's like more kind of right on me and more kinds of, yeah, hi. So let's talk a bit more yeah i think you just have to get in apparently what i do always say is which i'm just trying to understand so that's a terrible catchphrase to understand yeah and i'm going to end weekend woman's hour by doing an impersonation of me join emma on monday from 10. i'm sarah trele, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.