Woman's Hour - #MeToo in Comedy, Prom Dresses, Crowd Surfing

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

The comedians Katherine Ryan and Sara Pascoe have been making headlines in recent weeks following comments they made on Katherine’s new TV show. Both revealed instances when they’ve worked with men they believe to be predatory and despite complaining these men have not been reprimanded. Emma is joined by Kathryn Roberts who quit comedy because of her experiences and also by Chloe Petts who will be performing her show Transience at the Edinburgh Fringe this summer. School proms return this year, but with more and more families feeling the pinch during the cost-of-living crisis, some students are missing out on this milestone event as they can't afford a dress. Across the UK, pop-up shops for preloved dresses are helping relieve the financial burden for disadvantaged teenagers. We speak to two women involved in such intiatives.When Amy Maynard offered to take in a Ukrainian lady called Iryna, she didn’t realise the other struggle Iryna had been dealing with – fertility. Her first round of IVF was successful until she had a stillbirth, and she has one embryo left in Kyiv. Amy has now decided to raise money for Iryna and her husband Sergey, so they can have the chance to have a family of their own.Have you ever tried crowd surfing before? One woman decided she would try her hand at it and won a competition. Amanda Mansell from York has been crowned 'Middle-Aged Crowd Surfing Champion'. She had never done it before but now thinks more women should be doing it. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Hope the weekend provided a little bit of a break. But apparently with rail strikes on the way, we're going back to the 70s. Well, that's what some of the newspaper headlines are screaming this morning. But how has women's role in striking in the affected industries changed? Are women going to be around the negotiating tables this time around?

And what do non-striking women make of such strikes in 2021? And perhaps we could also reflect on how has the role of women in unions changed and evolved? A few questions there for you to think about, depending on your vantage point, your experience, where you've worked and your politics, of course. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. That's the number you need. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or email me as you often do and please continue to do so through the Women's Hour website. I also want to ask something completely different today. You might feel like it after the strikes, depending on where you are with them, whether you're being

affected by them or whether you feel you need to take strike action or somewhere in between, about those moments where you've completely thrown caution to the wind. What have you done that you never expected to do and why? And what happened? The inspiration for this question is 56-year-old Amanda Mansell. Now, I'm only bringing up her age because, well, first of all, we talked about it just before coming on air, but also because she is the new winner of the middle-aged crowd surfing championships. That's right. That is the winner, Amanda Mansell.

I'll be talking to her shortly. She went crowd surfing. It's not her usual thing, and she had a very good time. What about you? Perhaps it was crowd surfing. We are entering back into festival terrain. What have you done that really wasn't you and why and how did it turn out? It seems to have turned out pretty well for Amanda. Perhaps it wasn't so great in your case or perhaps whatever you're going to tell me about, it was the very best thing you did let me know 84844 looking forward to those messages also on today's program a real insight for you for all of us for into the side of comedy that we don't hear much about that is very far from funny two comedians are on the program to talk about some of that to us and and very personal experiences too. And a very powerful story of one Ukrainian woman's quest to complete fertility treatment in this country while her husband is stuck in Ukraine and time is against them. All of that to come on the programme. But first, as we do prepare for reduced train services this week due to strike action, of course, we're on the eve of the biggest rail strikes

in 30 years across the country. There are also talks that teachers, NHS staff may also join with strike action professions that, of course, are dominated by women. Less so, I suppose, in the field of rail, but we'll get to that, I think, with The Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee. Good morning.

Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. Your recollection of the 70s and women's role, I suppose, in that is perhaps a good place to start because for some, it will not bring back memories of perhaps women being in those smoky rooms and around those negotiating tables. Do you think things have changed? Things have changed enormously because although there were quite a lot of women union members then, the leadership was almost entirely entirely male and what's more the unions then were very ambivalent about women at work and whether women should be paid the same as men. They were

quite opposed to equal pay so it was a very different world. You know places like Ford, they had contracts by which women had to be paid less than men as part of the agreement things have changed out of all recognition now when you see so many women leaders you have unite uh unison two of the biggest unions teachers unions all led by women and because they have huge numbers of women members. And what's more, we have Frances O'Grady as leader of the TUC, who's done a terrific job there. So I think the atmosphere is different. Rail unions are up first and they are very male and still have a very sort

of macho image, which is a bit unfortunate. But I think as we do see these strikes rolling out, it'll feel different. It will feel different in lots of ways, of course. And then at the same time, I think it's very hard for you to comment on, Polly, but there was this really fascinating bit of research over the weekend around women going to the left, following a global trend in terms of their politics. And of course, the whole idea of a women's vote has never been one homogenous thing, of course. But there was some insight as to why women had perhaps stayed with,

let's talk about this country, with the Conservative Party. The idea that women hadn't worked for as long, they hadn't been part of unions. That's some of the historical reason. Of course, there's by-election coming up on Thursday. Just to take it from the other side of things, how do you think women, again, can't talk about women as one block, but might react to the strikes? Do you think with that trend to the left, there's going to be greater sympathy or equal frustration if they're standing on a train platform and they cannot get to their work

that's not affected by such strikes? Well, of course, it is very frustrating for anyone who can't get to work and it will be a difficult week. So I think people are slightly more used to it after COVID. Some will work at home. And of course, the lowest paid people don't use trains anyway because they're too expensive. But yes, I think that women have moved to the left because they are much more concerned about the state of public services. And they're seeing, you know, the problem, partly because they

work there, or they have, you know, other relatives who work there, in the NHS, in teaching, in council services, they're seeing the stress that public services are under. And they're the ones mostly within families who use those public services. They're what tends to be mothers, who deal with schools, who deal with health and doctors. And they're the ones who see how long the queues are and how difficult it can be now to get the services that people used to get. I mean, those reasons are borne out in the particular piece. It was in the Sunday Times, actually, and some of the academics are saying similar things to what you're talking about. And also Rosie Campbell was quoted, Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership and also a politics professor at King's College London. She talked about women

shifting to the left because women still end up taking on more help from things like childcare. So look to the state and that's their intersection a lot of the time. But another reason is demographics. Graduates tend to be liberal and about 57 percent of women go to university compared with 44 percent of men. And I wasn't aware true that as people do go to university, they come in contact with bigger ideas about perhaps what the state should be or what state could provide. They know a bit more about what happens abroad in other countries, and they see why other European countries pay more taxes and have much better services. And so they perhaps people who go to university do see the bigger picture very often. But it's I think it's much more that women rely most on public services and it matters to most of them to see them decaying and to see, as you mentioned, the cost of childcare. Meaning a lot of those women may find themselves having to take time out of work because they can't afford the childcare. I mean, they may feel that all governments have failed them, of course, because it's been successive governments that have led to this position.

They may be taking a dim view across the pond on that, the political pond, I should say. There's another idea on this, though, of course, around why women, some women, not all, but there's this trend towards the left that we're now seeing in the UK that's come from Europe. Anna Sanders of Manchester University calls it out-group solidarity. I don't know if you've heard that phrase, but she says, discriminated groups are likely to feel solidarity for other discriminated groups. If I felt harassed on the grounds of my gender, then I'm more sympathetic to those who face discrimination for other reasons. Again, another explanation for this

Polly, which while we're thinking about politics and strikes and where we place ourselves in the world is an interesting one. It is interesting because traditionally, right from when women first got the vote, women voted right, not left. And there would have been many, many more left-wing or liberal governments from that date had women not had the vote. And it changed sort of, I think, I think it changed with 97. I think Blair's government was the first that did get more women voters. And so it has changed since then. But obviously, we've still had a Conservative government for the last 12 years. Yes. And of course, that shows in itself some of the support of some of those women as well,

of course, of the men. A message that's come in, I fully expect we'll get more, but one that's just here, which gives a different complexion again, Jane in Glasgow, her reason for supporting striking rail workers, many of those who clean the trains will be low paid women who struggle to make ends meet. And this is the only way to map their voices heard. I use the trains daily. This will cause me problems. But that's the point of strike action. Can I just say about the pay? I mean, that's quite right. A lot of these railway workers are not particularly well paid.

The government has been using a figure for the average pay of railway workers that includes very well paid drivers, but the drivers are in another union, they're not on strike, they belong to ASLEF. If you take that out, the average pay is 33,000, which includes low paid cleaners, but also includes better paid engineers, technicians who fix trains and fix tracks. So it's not a picture that's quite being presented. Nevertheless, because rail unions have always been strong, they tend to be better paid and they are an example of why unions really matter. And if unions were as strong as they'd been in the mid-70s, we probably wouldn't see as much low pay as we see now, as much agency and insecure work as we see now. Well, I'm sure we will also hear from those, in fact, we're already starting to, who will

not agree with this and not think this is the right way forward. But that's, I suppose, the whole point. But this broader trend ahead of Thursday's by-election, of course, with women's politics is an interesting one to look at. Polly, I know this is completely random and we only very recently invited you onto the programme, but ever been crowd surfing? Just wanted to check because we're going to talk to someone who has.

Sorry. I'd love to say that I had, but I haven't. Right. Okay. Well, you know, it's always good to check with our guests. It's a whole programme if they share any of the interests of the next guests. But Polly Toynbee, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. The Guardian columnist there with regards to how things have changed and also perhaps stayed the same in other places. But, you know, regarding this week, how things will be and how things will be received you tell me uh about whether you think this is the the right way forward and of course if we're going back to the 70s what needs to have changed that perhaps hasn't and i of course say that in this in this respect not of course across

the board but do get in touch the numbers you need again is eight is eight four eight four four that's the number you need for text social media at bbc woman's hour or email me through the woman's hour website have you ever tried crowd surfing some of you already getting in touch about things Text social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Have you ever tried crowd surfing? Some of you are already getting in touch about things you've done where you've thrown caution to the wind. I don't know if I've found a fellow crowd surfer yet, but I'm asking you that because of Amanda Mansell from York. 56 years of age earlier this month announced as the winner of the Middle-Aged Crowd Surfing Championships. The punk band The Lovely Eggs have been running the competition while on their UK tour,

and this was what was being played whilst Amanda took to the arms of the crowd. Amanda joins me now on video call, and I have the benefit of seeing Amanda already rocking out in her living room. Good morning, Amanda. Hello, Emma. Well, I'm sorry. I mean, I know you don't mind, but I brought up your age because I wanted to know what middle-aged crowd surfing championships, what age one had to be to qualify.

I think it was anybody probably over 50. I don't know. I have no idea. How does it feel hearing that music again? Great. Love them. They're amazing. Holly, that's the front lead singer, is just awesome.

I recommend anybody to go and see them. It will get you dancing and moshing and crowd surfing. Well, and to the crowd surfing, we need to come because there's this video of you you're lying on on top of loads of people flat on top of loads of people passing you around at quite a speed how did it feel uh it felt brilliant it was joyful it was a connection connection with fellow people you know not only the band the, but fellow humans. I think we need that, don't we, in our lives now, and to be lifted above the heads of many people.

And I'm not a thin person by any means, I'm quite hefty. So, you know, there's that real risk of being dropped. Yes, which is when talking about it in the office this morning was the main fear we were finding most people were sharing. I didn't actually think about it. I just trusted people that they were going to hold me up. Are you a regular crowd surfer? No.

Okay. Not at all. No, it's actually the first time I've ever done it. It's the first time. Okay. I did suspect and I was wondering. And you've managed to win a competition the very first time? I did suspect and I was wondering and you've managed to win a competition the very first time.

Yes, I think I was just lucky. I think, like I said before, I need to work my style a bit. Other people that did it were much more energetic and I have got a very dodgy back. So, I think just the spread eagle

situation was suitable. It was suitable as they handled you through. Because there was a gentleman who talked about the Killers concert in Manchester and he fell. Apparently he's fine. Because it is a real risk. Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, it can go either way, can't it?

You either look like a complete idiot or you get dropped on your head like poor Dougie did. You know, as old people, we need to be put down slightly gently because yeah you know there was that brilliant piece the other day I think it was um it was Zoe Williams but I've thought about it as well myself I'm sure you have you get to a certain age where you um you you don't fall you have a fall yes yes I mean it's like, you know, we're always maligned, aren't we, about what we do when we're older. And I think as women as well, you know, we have to reclaim our space. You know, we're marginalised, aren't we?

We're told we're not allowed to do things or we're not allowed to be seen or heard. And I think, yeah, we need to just be physically there. Yeah. Well, there is also that whole thing of, of you know women not just worrying about being dropped but that you know which is which can be a problem but that whole not necessarily loving the idea of being touched by lots of people did you think about that in the back of my mind I did but actually everybody was very very lovely and very thoughtful. And there was no hands in places that they shouldn't be.

Good. OK. I was happy about that. I'm happy to hear that. I like all the details, Amanda. So that's why we always go there. And I realise, since we asked you to come on, I think you've also been to another gig since. Yes, I won some tickets for the York event

to go to the Ritz in Manchester, which was amazing. It was a brilliant gig. Some really great performers there. And who did you see, sorry? Yeah, I saw the Lovely Oats again. Oh, lovely. So you went, and any more crowd surfing? Yes, there was, well, unfortunately,

we weren't allowed to crowd surf due to security. I'm guessing there's a problem with people being hurt, obviously, but the lead singer, Holly, was quite encouraging to do it illegally. So I did have a little up there. A little up there, you did? My fellow competitors as well all have a little go. I love that.

Well, there are many messages coming in. We've got lots of, in particular, lots of women getting in touch. We have lots of male listeners, I should say, and I'm always keen to hear from them as well. But lots of women getting in touch about when they've thrown caution to the wind, inspired by your story this morning, Amanda. A message here saying, at the age of 69, I bought a houseboat built in a 130-year-old iron barge,

which turned out to have a garden. I now know it was a very good decision as my daughter and her family also have a much newer barge on the same plot, says Jess. Another one, I've done something in my mid-40s I never thought I would

for the first four decades of my life. I've become a Christian after thinking it was loads of bunkum. I suddenly found I believed. I'm now part of a lovely church. And she's talking here. Just let me load this message. And a faith that has brought me peace and happiness I never knew before, says Charlotte. Another one. I was walking and I saw an advert for Cancer Research UK. I had recently had a diagnosis of ovarian cancer and decided to get fit for my surgery.

So I walked 26 miles the month after my surgery and I've continued to walk since that time and now walk every day now I've walked 52 marathons in 52 weeks raising awareness of the signs of ovarian cancer and so it goes on I mean people are doing things at all ages they never thought they would do and I suppose that's in itself a bit of a challenge isn't it yeah it is I, I just didn't go for it. I mean, what's loose? You just might look like an idiot. Exactly.

Yeah, just be out there. Just enjoy life and just absorb all that good stuff that's out there. There's so much awful stuff that's going on. I think we need to fill ourselves with good stuff. Well, you've got a fellow crowd surfer in Diane, who's listening in Ashford, who's just messaged today. She says, I crowd surfed at Reading Festival in the 90s during Primal Scream's headline set.

Security showed me the round side of the stage and I got straight back into the centre of the action. I'm not sure I'd do it again, but I missed the mosh. So there you go. Yeah, definitely go for it sure I'd do it again but I missed the mosh so there you go yeah yeah definitely go for it again and I think you know also a bit of a theme is when somebody you know people have been through difficult things uh they sort of also push themselves because they're grateful to be here and all of that I know that speaks to you a little bit doesn't it this year with you and your family I know you don't want to go in too much detail but

but you've also traversed some difficulty this year and that and your family. I know you don't want to go into too much detail, but you've also traversed some difficulty this year and that inspired you, is that right? Yeah, it did. You know, I think when you're affected by suicide, you've got to reassess your life and that person isn't here anymore, so you've got to do it for them as well and keep their memory alive

and all their friends and their family and people that love them you know are grieving and suffering so you know it's important to just live it and also to bring up mental health awareness because we are suffering fundamentally with that yes And so many people do take their lives. And I think if crowd surfing and talking about that can open that door, because there's many charities out there that people can get in touch with and get help and please talk to somebody if you're suffering. Yes. Well, I think a lot of people, if I may, are also saying that, you know, keeping people's memory alive is a big part of things they might just decide to do.

And in your case, that is crowd surfing. So I want to wish you congratulations on becoming the winner of this competition, Middle Age Crowd Surfing Championships. And I'm sure now, Amanda, it seems like a habit that is going to be developed into such. And we'll perhaps see you in some crowds this summer. Hopefully at Deer Shed Festival, I'll be doing it again. to such and we'll perhaps we'll perhaps see you in some crowds this summer hopefully at

Deer Shed Festival I'll be doing it again I'm gonna look out for you Amanda thank you so much what a joy to talk to you there keep your messages coming in oh we've got another crowd surfer here I used to crowd surf in my 20s to death metal bands this is from Princess Ravenna on Twitter whilst being part of a violent pit, it's much fun. But I haven't done it since I was pregnant. My son's now 25. I did see someone dropped and the crowd couldn't get away. And he did end up with multiple bruises, a broken nose and some missing teeth.

So yes, OK, a bit of caution there as well. But from someone who knows. And here's another one. I said yes to a marriage proposal in the first week of a relationship. I had always been cautious about commitment. but we already knew each other through work and he was a qualified psychiatrist. So I thought he could be trusted. The opposite was true. Worst mistake I ever made. Well, I did think we were going to get a few of those where it didn't quite turn out how you want. And there you go. That's one of them. Keep those messages coming in. And we also just going back to the strikes,

a message here saying, I am anti-strikes. Too many on the left are lazy and don't want to work, reads this message that's come in on Twitter. But another one here from Veronica, who says, good morning to Emma and the Women's Hour team. As a nurse going out on strike is the last thing

that many working for the NHS ever want to do. However, the current government seem oblivious to the challenges faced by the vast majority working within the public sector. Not only are wages lagging way behind inflation, that was a point addressed with my colleagues on the Today programme with Simon Clarke from the government this morning, but an ability to deliver the service that the public sector workers strive for is seriously being hampered with us putting lives at risk. From Veronica, who sounds, of course, very involved with this, but also upset as well. Keep those messages coming in, going back to the 70s in terms of strike action. As some of the headlines say this morning, how things are different, how women's role different.

Well, we've just heard from Veronica directly, but also keep your messages coming in about throwing caution to the wind. 84844 is the number you need to text. It'd be great to keep hearing those messages. You do not have to have crowd surfed. You may have done and you may not have loved it. I'll also hear those stories, but other stories too. Please do get in touch.

Now to the world of comedy. Catherine Ryan and Sarah Pascoe, two of the biggest names in the industry at the moment of course. Sarah is the host of the Great British Sewing Bee. Both women are regulars on panel shows and live at the Apollo as well as commanding their own audiences on their TV specials and solo stand-up gigs. But both have made recent headlines due to comments on Catherine's new television show where they revealed instances when they have worked with men they believe to be predatory. And despite complaining that these men have not been reprimanded,

that's still gone ahead. And Catherine has said that female comics are in a constant state, quote, of vigilance and assessment when it comes to navigating their careers and the men they work with. Well, to discuss this more, I've been speaking to Catherine Roberts, who was a stand-up comedian for five years before leaving the industry in 2019, and Chloe Petz, who will be performing her show, Transients at the Edinburgh Fringe, this summer. She's been shortlisted for the BBC Comedy Award and has recently been supporting the comic Ed Gamble

on his UK tour. I spoke to them both earlier, just before coming on air, and I began by asking Catherine what made her originally want to get into comedy. It was just when I, I mean, when I was 10, I just thought, these people are like magic. I thought laughter was such an amazing thing. And so they were like boy bands, I guess, to me, comedians. And I just wanted to be part of the gang. I wanted to see the sparkle and the lights

where people who I thought were like geniuses, I just really wanted to be part of that magic. Well, I was going to say, what was it like being on stage? It is like a kind of primal almost sense of being like we're all together and we're laughing. It feels so good and magical. It's great. Why did you end up leaving this place that you describe as magical? I got assaulted by another comedian. And after that, my ability to kind of look the other way and turn rather cheap to behaviour that I didn't like,

but I guess I worked with these people because you have to work with them to do your dream. You have to do it too. And then my tolerance for that just went down and I couldn't do it anymore. then my tolerance for that just went down and I couldn't do it anymore because just just to make this clear as well because it's not a set office structure is it far from it when you are a stand-up comedian and with what happened to you and I should say again you've made this public you didn't report it to the police no but you

was in a situation where you then didn't feel you could go to certain gigs. You didn't know who would be in the audience. And before you actually left comedy, the experience, apart from, of course, the physical and emotional harm it had caused to you, left you isolated in your work. Yeah, I didn't report it to the police and I just wanted to be okay. I just wanted to do comedy and be okay with it. And so I just left it. But then more and more, it started to have a bit of an effect on me where I just didn't want to hang out with people who I knew certain gigs that I

thought were were my favorite because I knew this guy was probably going to be there and I didn't I would didn't want to go and watch gigs where I wasn't a part of because you don't know the line up until the day. It just became more and more like I couldn't enjoy it anymore. Which is, of course, even more, I mean, it's sad in any way, but it's sort of even more tragic when it's about laughter, it's about joy, and it's about that magic that you described. Catherine, thank you for that. Just stay with me and let me bring in Chloe Petz as well. Chloe, welcome to the programme.

Thank you so much. And that was so interesting listening to you, Catherine. Obviously, incredibly harrowing. But yeah, thank you for sharing those experiences. There is concern about the world that we want to go and enjoy and laugh with and laugh at, you know, because of these insights, these pockets of experiences that we're hearing about. How is it for you, Chloe? Because you're in it, you're amongst it at the moment. I would say I probably experience the quiet misogyny of being a comedian, which is the stuff that's quite difficult to articulate because it will be sort of microaggressions that we as women will be able to sort of recognise amongst each other. But when you try and explain that to a wider audience, then they might sort of negate that by saying, well, maybe you just weren't funny enough so I'm talking about the specifics of going to a gig and this will look I can't say this of all audiences most audiences are absolutely wonderful but you will go to those gigs where you just it's it's often blokes of a certain age and they just sit there they lean back they fold their arms and they go this woman's not going to impress me whatsoever and you know it's a different quality of laughter for you than for the blokes which is usually the

women laughing and and the men sort of maybe not going for it as much um so you sort of understand that that and then there's also maybe it would be better to sort of give more fixed examples than just the vibe um and the fixed examples would be oftentimes people will come up to you after a gig and go, I don't usually find women funny. But that's a lovely that's a lovely starting sentence, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't usually find women, but you were great. And I'm like, yeah, please slag off other women to praise me. I love it. The sisterhood is alive and well in comedy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no know i'd sell them all out um no of

course not it's it's a horrible thing to say to hear and a horrible implication so you just kind of get this vague sense that at some gigs and you can often read them you are starting maybe five steps behind the the start line and we have to i think I think we probably have to uh acknowledge my demographic here which is that I'm very masculine presenting so I think sometimes people are responding to um the symbols of what you are rather than like um the actual sort of like mechanics of your demographic or whatever so I can often fit in quite well into these spaces because I'm, I'm recognizably laddy and maybe saying the things that they kind of expect a comedian to say.

So it's more difficult for extremely feminine presenting women. And I know that my femme colleagues get a lot of, particularly my queer femme colleagues get a lot of misogynistic heckling. And what you're talking about there it's very important for uh an understanding of the the atmosphere within which you exist and work and but how are you also finding the because you're talking about the audience a lot there and the response what is it actually like as well with fellow uh comics with those who you're working alongside because that's's what we're also getting a bit of an insight into here,

you know, how it is to travel, how it is to appear along others on the bill and how you're treated. And then, of course, in Catherine's instance, you know, a very extreme and, in this case, violent experience. Yeah, so I didn't want to sort um negate at all that stuff by talking about the audience I think it was just important to sort of give a context of what it feels like in terms of you it often feels like um yeah you're starting a bit behind and you're in this kind of almost like combative thing where you're where you're fighting for your space yes and then that

is obviously echoed within the green rooms and within the cars that you are within and and I think yeah the context of me being quite a masculine queer woman who um is very very big very tall sort of yeah presents very masculine I often feel like I'm sort of an ally in these situations where I'm sort of um having to listen to my friends and colleagues but then equally I have experience of inappropriate sexual touching like just really sort of sexually inappropriate and explicit comments have been made to me in green rooms and I don't I consider myself to be a very sort of minor recipient of it sometimes it's difficult for blokes to call out other blokes because they don't know it's going on, because these guys are so good at being charming and charismatic.

And I think that was a really good point you made, Catherine, about lineups not getting shared till the day. I think that's certainly a tangible thing that we try and ask for now, because you don't want to turn up. You don't want to turn up to a gig and find that you're on a bill with an abuser because you don't want to turn up you don't want to turn up to a gig and find that you're on a bill with an abuser because you don't want to be in a green room with them because you don't know what they're going to do they're absolutely awful you have zero respect for them and it's not you don't sort of want to be look like you're aligned with them or colluding with them in any way or endorsing in any Catherine, I mean, what do you think has to change? Who could that come from?

Because, again, it's not reminding me of Parliament per se, but we have heard about, for instance, in Parliament, that there's a lack of scrutiny of MPs because who do they answer to? There's no human resources in the same way that there is. There's various structures that are being put in place. There's quite a lot of investigations going on at the moment. But in industries where there aren't the same structures, it can be even harder.

I mean, does this come down to tour managers? Does this come down to venues? How do you think it could change, Catherine? A lot of gigs, they have a woman's spot and they're like, well, we don't want to have two women on a bill. But just spending so much of my career being isolated from other women and not being in contact with them and not having someone on my side, I feel like just having two women on general gigs would be helpful.

And also there's a standard with venues where it's it feels like they value success more than they value safety there's a lot there's a lot to think about there and and you know it's uh it's a very sobering insight into as i say a world we rely on for for our lives what what do you do now catherine do you work in any way connected to entertainment or all this industry uh no i um i'm now at university i'm studying biomedical sciences i've uh i know I'm moving into like STEM, which is obviously well known for how well they treat women in that as well. It feels like there might be a HR department.

Well, I was going to say, we talked to a lot of amazing women in that world who have a wonderful career as well and are trying to make changes as well as some of the other things that you alludeude to but that's a that's an incredible degree to be doing and perhaps i'll talk to you in that guys uh on that front at some point but thank you very much for talking to me today and uh chloe all the best to you thank you thank you much appreciated last voice there chloe pets and before it catherine ro Catherine Roberts talking about the world of comedy. Now, with the news and what's in the headlines today, that FINA, Swimming's world governing body, has voted to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite races if they have been through any part of male puberty. The Times seems right to again invite onto the programme people with power over these decisions in the UK, from sports ministers

through to the top brass governing sports. Those invitations are being renewed today by the team. You may remember I last mentioned this in April after Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, made his intervention on the subject. Some people were available, but other key people were not. I hope we will be able to bring you a programme

or an item focused on this soon. So just to say that at this point, I'd like to be open with you and talk to you about how we are looking at certain discussions and conversations for the programme. So all that's to come, I hope, and a lot more to say. You also are using the opportunity to have your say this morning. Thank you for that. A message is about things that you have done where you've thrown caution to the wind still flooding in. I started running at the age of 55, Emma. I went from couch to 5K in two months. Last November, I did my first 10K,

came third from last, which was amazing. I love running so much now, which I am fitter, healthier, and I love being outdoors. I think you're saying you came third, actually, not third from last, which was amazing. I saw Grace Jones, brilliant message here from Genevieve. I saw Grace Jones at the Royal Festival Hall last night and she crowd surfed all the way up to the back stalls

and she's 75. It was joyous. Worth the two-year wait. I bet that was incredible. And six years ago at the age of 57, I left a 30-year career in the NHS to become a prison chaplain. I never dreamed I'd find myself behind bars, but it's a job I love. No regrets, reads this message. Thank you. And Eve's got in touch. We were talking about the data which shows women going towards the left in this country following European trends.

Not all women, of course, but some data, very interesting data, has been commissioned. And Eve's got in touch in light of what's going on with strikes this week to say the opposite view. You may still be left, of course, you may be against strikes. They don't all match up neatly, but the unions are holding the country to ransom and seeing how much train drivers earn too.

That was a point covered by Polly Toynbee, actually, to differentiate. It's dreadful. They can be allowed to get away with it. Thank you for letting me get on my soapbox. That's from Eve. Messages to the opposite effect also have come in, but thank you for that one just then. And we'll get more, I'm sure, of both shortly. But let me tell you about a Ukrainian woman called Irina from the safety of her new home in the UK with a woman called Amy Maynard, she is still fighting another battle, infertility. Because Irina's first round of IVF was successful

back in Ukraine until she had a stillbirth in 2016. She still has one embryo in a clinic in Kiev, which recently had to be moved from Kharkiv, but now is trying to go forward with IVF, but her husband is still in Ukraine. And there is a fundraising effort to try and help the next stages of this, which Amy, her host, is spearheading. Amy joins me now. Good morning. Morning, Emma. And also Irina, who who's next to you so let me welcome you to Woman's Hour thank you very much for joining us hi hello now I'm just going to say at this point I know you're you're still uh getting to grips with English uh which is is you know no means feat with not least with what else is going on in your life so Amy has uh has agreed you're sitting

alongside one another to to do the bulk of the talking this morning. But I wanted to make sure I said hello to you. This is obviously a very emotional subject for you as well. And it's very good to have you both here on the programme. But Amy, perhaps we could go back to when you first decided to offer your home to a Ukrainian family or to a Ukrainian. How did you two get matched? So there's an online platform called Apora, which I just put a description down as that I was looking to host.

And Irina messaged me and we kind of hit it off and went from there. Okay. And when you actually came together, and now, of course, you are together, how did you learn about what else was going on with Irina and fertility? So before she came over, we'd been WhatsAppping to get to know each other. And she sent me one message that said something along the lines of, war is not only destroying people's lives, but it's also destroying hopes and dreams. And she then explained that they'd been having IVF and she told me about the stillbirth.

And she said that the war had put an end to their hopes of becoming parents because obviously she was leaving Ukraine and the process was coming to an end. So, yeah, that's how I heard about it. And there is, of course, with that, you know, the disruption of war. And we perhaps don't think about what's being stopped. And this is one of those instances that, you know, is time sensitive and is incredibly cruel in regular times. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's not really been reported much, this kind of side effect of the war. I mean, I've heard of people that have got Ukrainian surrogates who they've had to bring over to help keep them safe. So yeah, that's a whole kind of aspect that I hadn't even given any it. You got in touch with me and with the programme. And I think you're right also to say that, and I know we even covered it, you know, there were issues when fertility has been raised regarding Ukrainian women and Ukrainian families. It has been from the perspective of women here in the UK and their fertility. Tell me what you're fundraising for now. So we've set up a GoFundMe page for

Irina and her husband, Sergei. So the hope was to try and bring the existing embryo over with special transport. But the clinic in Kiev has said that because of the war, the red tape, I mean, it's just too complicated. they haven't got the proper protocols in place so now the plan is for Sergei to give a specimen that will be frozen and shipped over and then Arena will have the necessary treatment here and then hopefully the implantation and yeah so we're raising funds for the entire process but it's a bit like how long is a piece of string you know it could could go into the thousands. So we're trying to get the money, the fundraising going. Because Sergei has to stay in Ukraine.

Yeah, just the conscription law. So he's not fighting, but he's not allowed to leave in case he's needed. So, yeah, so they're both. Irina says it's given her a sense of purpose, I think, this process, because her life was totally turned upside down. And now she said she feels like she's got something to kind of keep going for. So, yeah, so we're just keeping everything crossed. Yes. And I suppose you're having to support Irina through this as much as possible. I can see this is incredibly upsetting and emotional for her.

Yeah, she's exceptionally brave. And it's a funny thing for me because it feels a little bit like I'm playing God because of her English, the issues with her English. She's given me permission to talk to doctors and clinics. And the process is strange for me having to have these conversations on her behalf but she's told me that she's you know obviously she's 100 behind it i've got children

that live you know that live here so she's spends time with my children and i see how amazing she is with them and i just really would love to help her become a mum so yeah that's that's the plan yes i mean in the midst of all of this having to cope with the with the war and then this it's it's a it's a lot isn't it yeah and I did what I worried slightly you know when I've been putting the fundraiser out on social media and doing this that there might be a little bit of a well not a backlash but women over here that are struggling to conceive and having to fund their own treatment or wait for years on the NHS. And I did have a couple of comments on social media about, you know, what makes her situation any more important.

And the answer is, I don't think any woman is more deserving of help. But I think the war is just an added dimension that has you know that maybe is it is a new kind of angle on the whole thing yeah well it's an inability to access the the care that you would have been able to access yeah precisely so yeah so and how is that how is I mean apart from those couple of messages I mean I imagine it's it's it's not a complex story but you do have to get your head around how it might end up happening. And you obviously know it is possible. You've done the research to look at, you know, transporting a Sergei specimen to get it here to the UK and how that might all work.

But, you know, we've heard stories, of course, of people getting out and, you know, saving people, whether it's, of course, Ukraine, but also in Afghanistan. But I haven't actually heard a story quite like this. you know saving people whether it's of course ukraine but also in afghanistan we've but but i haven't actually heard a story quite like this so i mean how do you know that this is possible and and that i suppose when you're fundraising that what you're what you're asking for you'll be able to deliver well we've we've had to put in a kind of disclaimer on the fundraiser to say that you know any funds that aren't used will go to Ukrainian charity. But it is possible. We've done a lot of research.

We've spoken to clinics over here and in Ukraine. There's an issue with trying to work out that the clinic in Ukraine has got the correct licence to be able to export. And then there are special companies that do the kind of high road transportation. Because he just can't leave because of the conscription, that's right. No, and actually we don't know if she were to fall pregnant whether he'd be able to leave. That's a question we can't answer.

So that's another problem. If it is successful, will he be able to come over? We're not sure at the moment. But her sister's on the scheme in England as well, so she's got family over here, which is good. Well, and it also seems like you two have established a real bond as well. Yeah, I feel really lucky because I was quite fixated on the idea of hosting without thinking about the reality of what it was actually going to be like. And then just before she arrived, I was thinking,

oh my goodness, I'm having a total stranger coming to live in the house. But I've been so lucky. She is, yeah, she's a total inspiration and a lovely, lovely human being. And I'm already worried about missing her when she's gone. So yeah, it's been great. It's been really good for, it's helped me a lot.

So yeah. I wish you good luck with with this and with everything thank you very much for for allowing us to share your story thank you thank you and thank you to to you amy for getting in touch in the first place thanks for your help amy there amy maynard who's uh sitting with irina who is is trying to carry on with her fertility treatment, but now here in the UK to conflict, to try and fulfil her dream of having a family, to try and to keep going with that, regardless of the war,

and also the fact that she can't be with her husband, who, because of the conscription laws, cannot leave Ukraine. So we'll stay with that story. If there's an update, we'll bring it to you. More messages coming in. A bit about throwing caution to the wind. Alice, 43, she gives her age on this one,

says, having had some sadness and loss in 2019, I went back to college and I am looking forward to going to Plymouth University in September to study a master's in midwifery. Congratulations to you. If not now, when? Very good point.

Another one. CK has got in touch and this is with linking to the messages about where you are, especially as women, if we're going back to the 70s on the eve of the biggest

rail strikes in 30 years. To the message that said so many on the left are lazy. That's quite some point of view. Please do let us know what response you're getting to this. I feel completely stunned into silence by such a point of view being sent in by a fellow Woman's Hour listener.

Yours as ever, CK. Well, another message here around the same topic. I don't know if it's a direct response. They're just coming in. Tony says, having experienced in the 80s teacher strikes in my final years of secondary school, I used to be adamantly against striking. And then I trained to be a teacher in my early 40s.

And in my newly qualified teacher year, NQT, I came to understand just how supremely dumped on teachers are. I quit before the end of the period. I left teaching altogether. And now I'm fully in support of those who strike and have moved far more to the left in my politics, being a radical feminist and member of the Women's Equality Party and affiliate of the Green Party. Well, there you go, CK ck who wrote in as tony's response to it in somerset

great show as always thanks for contributing and i suppose helping it make as a show with your voices in it but now to something else completely school proms returning this year but amidst the cost of living crisis finding the cash for a beautiful dress or suit isn't something every family can afford. The once American tradition has been well and truly adopted by many over here in the UK with pupils getting dressed up and attending a formal ball but has it become too costly? The average price of prom dresses range from £200 to £500 that's before you factor in the price of a ticket. Across the country, communities have been setting up pop-up prom shops where disadvantaged students can find a second-hand dress for next to nothing. Although, of course, it might not be disadvantaged. You might be thinking

about the ethics of it and the eco side of it. A whole range of people accessing those dresses. Dr Louise Cook, chief executive of the clothing charity Shareware, which launched the Make Prom Fair campaign, amongst many others, and the history teacher, Stephanie Lakin, who helps girls across Birmingham find their prom dresses. Welcome to you both. Louise, if I come to you first, what's the impact? You know, it might be easy to sort of scoff at it's a prom.

We shouldn't necessarily be doing this American tradition here, but what's the impact of not being able to get a dress for for such an event because of the costs well i think at age 16 in particular in year 11 um children of that age want to fit in with their peers they want to be able to access the same opportunities as their peers and don't want to appear to be different in any way so by not being able to go to prom at all um psychological impact of that on someone at such a delicate age um you know is is unbelievable and i'm sure you know steph will be able to talk more about that as well as a teacher i'm a former teacher myself as well so bring some of that to bear to it so yeah well we'll definitely bring

bring stephanie in in just a moment but i was thinking about whether you think students at this age their attitude has changed to secondhand clothing i'm aware that of love island this year bringing in where you know the contestants only wearing pre-loved as they like to call it clothing what do you make of that well i think there's a bit of a disconnect between um Island and the world of Instagram, where it's very trendy now to buy pre-loved for everything, not just prom. We've got people like Deborah Meaden saying that she's not going to buy any new clothing for a whole year. So it's getting a lot of celebrity support buying pre-loved.

But when it comes to a 16 year old old I think there is a disconnect between it's really trendy and celebrities and the tv are promoting pre-loved and me personally me a 16 year old girl that's been through everything I've been through at school and I just want my Cinderella moment and I think there's a bit of a disconnect there and I think schools have got a role to play in this in helping to educate young people that we are in a world where pre-lived is becoming more of the norm, thank goodness. So trying to educate young people that it's OK to attach pre-lived to prom as well. Yes, I think that's a really good point. We could talk about it, but how it feels, especially as a 16-year-old. Stephanie, let me bring you in at this point.

There will also be those, I'm very aware, perhaps even shouting at the radio, why do these girls need a Cinderella moment? Yeah, good question. Teenagers are very peer aware. And whilst I think a lot of people might think that proms have gone out of hand and out of control, really, proms should be inclusive to everyone. Regardless, there should not be any financial qualification for a prom. It should be inclusive to everyone. And so giving students the opportunity to go to the prom and take part in a big event that is to celebrate the end of their years at school. It marks the end of a chapter in their lives.

And I think it's important that they do mark that with their friends. But like I said, to keep it available to everyone is really, really important. And you've been trying to do that. You've been working with teenagers. And what about that gap between knowing it's good for the environment and wanting something new? Yeah, well, the way that Madrina works is the fact that they are donated prom dresses. Can I just interrupt? That's a non-profit you've set up. It means Grandmother in Italian and you're trying to offer girls that moment for prom carry on yes yeah so it is um donated dresses so pre-loved dresses or dresses that a lot of us women um tend to have in our wardrobes that we've never worn

and they're just hanging there um I'm guilty of that definitely, that have been repurposed to help young girls and there is also suits that have been donated as well to help boys to go to their prom. Now I think to be honest with some teenagers if it's a decision on whether or not they go to the prom as to whether they wear a pre-loved dress some of them are very willing to wear a pre-loved dress if I'm honest some people's um financial situations at the moment they have been told that they can't go to their prom by their parents maybe or they've been aware that their parents can't afford it so they haven't even asked to go um to have an opportunity to go actually I can actually go now because there is a dress that I can wear. And some of these dresses are absolutely gorgeous and stunning.

It has opened up an opportunity for that inclusive environment for them to be able to go and celebrate with their friends. Well, a message just came in, you know, the girls should hire a prom dress. They could afford something gorgeous at a more reasonable price. So there's also the hiring trend that's being raised by joy who's listening you're sat because i can see you on on a video call where you're joining me from you're sat next to quite an exquisite gown when we're thinking about maybe you could describe that but when we're thinking about prom dresses are we talking about ball gowns or are we talking about regular dresses that are if you like black tie yeah so the dress next to me is pretty like big red lots of jewels lots of embellishments um very very like big and

as you can imagine quite flamboyant so it really does depend on the students to be honest some like a big massive dress that is like a ball gown. Some are preferring something more like a cocktail dress. Some preferring something a bit more sleek. So it really depends on the student, to be honest. Yeah, well, and I know you've been looking at this, Louise, and also about donations and people getting in touch. What's the response been like on this

particular topic oh well from a donation point of view um we're always inundated with beautiful dresses in particular less so with suits and some of them have been worn once some of them haven't been worn because they were bought in a sale without trying on first and then not returned or something like that or an internet return that wasn't returned. But for us, the prom aspect of clothing is part of the wider inclusivity issue that Steph has touched on. And the Right Clothing, which is an independent network that we have just launched this week,

that talks about everyone having access to whatever it is they need to do in life through clothing. And whatever people's views are on proms and whether we should have them or not, then maybe we can work together in that network to make prom in the future pre-loved prom. And that's what all schools aspire to do. Let's make our prom this year a completely pre-loved prom. And a very easy way that schools could do that is just collecting all the prom dresses from this year's prom and keep them for next year's prom. What a great idea. Our wedding fair is offering free clothing to people when it's not a pop-up shop. It's not a social enterprise.

We provide free clothing choices to people, of which prom is just a tiny bit. But there is so much interesting work that could be done here as part of the wider right to clothing network yes because of course when you buy a dress like that as stephanie was saying you don't often tend to wear it many times do you afterwards and they sort of they hang in your in your wardrobe like these bodies yeah all the dresses we have donated all the parents say uh i i can't tell you what that cost me this time last year it was horrendous i went through all of the you know all of that stress getting them kitted out the war it for a couple of hours that night it's never seen

the light of day again and i'm so glad and your family are going to get to use that without going through the stress end of prom getting getting your tracksuits. Almost take them off at the door. Give them in. Yeah, that's it. Put them in the bag. Get them clean. Someone can do that or whatever. Spot clean, which is also better for the environment.

Might not even need a full clean. Dr Louise Cook, Chief Executive of the clothing charity Shareware behind that Make Prom Fair campaign and the history teacher, Stephanie Loken, who helps girls across Birmingham with her non-profit Madrina find their prom dresses.

There you go, another side of the Costa living crisis. Thank you to both of you. Thank you to you. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. What makes you feel physically and mentally stronger?

The act of skating. That's my zen. That's my relaxation time. That is the question I ask guests on my podcast to discover their secrets to health and happiness. I see going to bed

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for us to reflect on what have we missed, you know. The new series of the Joe Wicks podcast from BBC Radio 4. I think it is really important for us to reflect on what have we missed, you know? There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.