Woman's Hour - #MeToo - the victories, the criticisms and the unintended consequences

Episode Date: January 6, 2021

The #MeToo movement exploded across social media and into the public consciousness in late 2017. In case you missed it, Me Too aimed to show the scale of harassment and sexual violence in society and raise awareness of women who've been abused. Amid shared stories from women of all ages, nationalities and backgrounds, it exposed not only the magnitude of sexual assault but the systemic failure to stop it. It's the most visible, feminist, social media movement of recent times. But what are the victories, criticisms and unintended consequences of #MeToo?A year on from the start of Harvey Weinstein's trial in New York City, we hear reflections from actors Rosanna Arquette and Caitlin Dulany, who have both accused Weinstein of sexual assault. Emma is also joined by defence barrister Gudrun Young; the Director of End Violence Against Women, Sarah Green; and the author Lionel Shriver.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here with today's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast, A Lot To Think About. Good morning. It's exactly a year since the trial of Harvey Weinstein started in New York City. Allegations against Weinstein began to emerge in 2017 when the New York Times first reported incidents dating back over decades. In March last year, Weinstein was found guilty of committing a first-degree criminal sexual act against one woman and third-degree rape of another, and is serving a 23-year prison sentence in upstate New York. And more sexual assault charges are coming. The Me Too movement was already in existence, having been created by Tarana Burke back in 2006

to raise awareness of the pervasiveness of sexual abuse and assault in society. But Weinstein's accusers turbocharged it into a global movement. It's a hashtag that's been used more than 19 million times to tell women and men's stories. But a year on, since Weinstein hobbled into court suddenly using a Zimmer frame, what has the MeToo movement achieved? Are more people getting access to justice? Has it prevented would-be abusers from abusing or driven it further underground? And what would have been the unintended consequences?

And what have those been perhaps in your life? How has the MeToo wave affected your existence, if at all? Have you spoken up having previously been silent did you stop something happening as you suddenly felt i don't know seen has the movement changed the way you work or date i say this to both women and men text me now on 84844 text our charge at your standard rate to tell us how it has affected you or what your view is of it and how it's changed society around you perhaps and let us know. Or you can do so by the website, you can email us,

or on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour. But to our first guests then, the actors Rosanna Arquette and Caitlin Delaney, who are joining us, as I say, a year on from the first day of Weinstein's court case. They've both spoken out and accused Weinstein of sexual assault. Rosanna was one of the first women to speak out publicly against Weinstein after he repeatedly propositioned her and pressured her into sexual acts, threatening her career if she didn't. Caitlin broke her 20-year silence after being sexually assaulted by Weinstein in France. They join me from California, where I should say it's around two o'clock in the morning. So thank you both of

you for staying up, if I may start with that. Rosanna, first to you. A year on, how are you feeling? And how did you feel actually outside that court case as he started his trial? Oh, yes. That was a great day. Some of the women that we were, we stood together in solidarity and very quietly just watched him walk in so that he could see that we're, we're, we were in solidarity and we're, we're, we mean it. And it's, it's been a real rough year. He went to jail on the 11th and we went into quarantine here on the 13th of March. So it's been challenging, I have to say. It's been a strange one in many ways, but I'm sure also time to reflect in some ways. Caitlin, welcome to you. More than 80 women accused him of sexual assault.

Did you believe justice was going to happen? Thank you. I was, I mean, this, the anniversary of the beginning of his trial really has meant a lot to me because I was very concerned that he would not be sent to jail. It was hard for me to believe that that would actually happen. And it was quite a milestone for our court system and for the Me Too movement when he was actually found guilty of the crimes that he was charged with. So it was a real roller coaster during the trial. And I'm feeling a lot of that now. And one of the things I really felt during the trial was a great sense of mourning and a lot of grieving for all of the women that he had harmed, a closeness with them about our unfortunate collective experiences and a lot of grieving. He did a lot of harm. So I was really happy to see him charged.

And as Rosanna said, then we went right into quarantine. So it was a little, it's nice to talk about it now. It hasn't been, you know, in the news as much since then, really. Well, we thought it was a moment to reflect on the whole movement and what has happened since and perhaps where it goes next. So we are grateful for you talking to us today. Rosanna, why did you decide to speak out in the press? I had talked about it to many, many people through the years. And it was very, you know, people say, just keep your mouth shut.

But I had told a lot of people. And then when Ronan got in touch with me and also Jodie Cantor, I just, it just, you know what, I realized it's time. You know, we. You're talking, I'm just saying you're talking about the journalists who who brought this to the floor. Those are the journalists who were Ronan Farrow, his New Yorker piece, and then Jodie Cantor and Megan. So they they had, you know, on The New York Times. But, yeah, you know, we're all kind of one in our trauma. It's like a universal language language now.

And I don't think we're ever going to go back to living a life of shame so we do know that now every voice matters and survivors deserve to be heard and believed and it was it's hard it's hard to do you take a chance i definitely it's a risk and i you know i just recently had a really great job and and someone on the top, you know, killed it. So there's like retaliation still. It just is what it is. But I wouldn't go back or change it for anything. And I realized, like, I had a great career and if I don't work again, it's okay. But yeah, there's a lot of backlash from coming out, I think. I mean, you did manage to keep acting, keep working,

and many others didn't. And Caitlin, I think. I mean, you did manage to keep acting, keep working, and many others didn't. And Caitlin, I just wonder for you, what was the moment that you decided to speak out? Because he did have a huge impact on your ability to work and also to live. He did. And like many, many women, that's the tragedy here. He really affected my career and Rosanna's and so many other women.

And I mean, I was absolutely terrified of Harvey Weinstein in any kind of retaliation or even coming in, you know, into contact with him in any way for most of my adult life because of what happened. And but that's that's a common experience like i said you know of all of us which is just tragic um but um the on october 5th 2017 um the first article came out in the new york times and i was driving and i received a text from my sister so this article came up you know this har this Harvey Weinstein's face and accusations of, you know, multiple accusations of sexual assault. I was stunned. I had no idea. And her next text was, you know, you should tell your story, you know. So from, from my sister's, you know, thoughts for me, because I had spoken to her, I hadn't actually spoken to a lot of people

about what happened to me. You know, I, I about it for a couple of weeks. It took it took a lot. It took the courage of the women that were speaking out before me, like Rosanna and a number of others for me to to come forward. And and I wanted to speak to the to the DA's in New York and Los Angeles and and really it right. And a couple of years later, Harvey was charged in both states. And I know we were all very happy about that. In terms of the Me Too movement then, if we could just talk about the impact it's had. I wonder if I could put this to you, Rosanna. We're getting a load of messages in

from our listeners around their view of this. But last July 2020, Tarana Burke, a black activist who actually coined that term, as we were just saying, said Harvey Weinstein is a symbolic case. To see a high profile rich white man be convicted of a crime in general is always astonishing. But seeing what celebrity goes to jail or not is not sustainable as a movement. How do you respond to that? Well, I mean, we have to keep going. The story, I mean, you see the patriarchy, they've just, you know, done everything to, like, fight this,

trying to take abortion rights in America away. You know, the Kavanaugh hearings. I mean, here it's been, you know, men are furious, but we're not stopping. And people like Tarana, you know, it's about healing. It's all about healing the trauma. And I don't think that movement is ever going to be dead and it forever changed the way people think about sexual harassment in the workplace and in the world. And, you know, two steps forward, a few steps back, but we'll keep going.

That's what I feel. How about you, Caitlin, on that point? Well, I mean, the Me Too movement just brings hope and it's the beginning of change. There's a lot of change that needs to happen and a lot of it is around justice and equity for women, especially in the workplace. And the fact that women began to speak out in droves and refuse to be silent about sexual assault and harassment, about sexism and gender discrimination, you know, beginning in, you know, just the force of what happened, you know, in 2017, you know, it's just so hopeful. And a lot of laws have changed here in California. We've been a part of that, Rosanna, especially, and I, and things are moving forward. Harvey Weinstein going to jail

is just a beginning. I completely agree. And, you know, I will forever be grateful to Toronto Burke for originally starting the Me Too movement in 2009. And history is taking its course from there. You talked about believing women, and that could be one of the issues that other people have some concerns about. And actually, some feminists have said, if you go with the idea, this phrase, believe women, it's also a bit of a trap sometimes. I wonder, before maybe I get your view on that, but I'm sure you have one. Did you feel that you were only believed in the end because there were enough of you, Rosanna? Yeah, it took, it took, I guess we're stronger when we come together in sisterhood and solidarity. And that's ultimately, you know, it, it, it, we're a stronger, it's a stronger force to be reckoned with when we come together.

And that was Tarana. That's how she, I mean, we didn't know her then, but her whole movement was, you know, about women coming together, telling their stories, and healing in that process. So here we are. And, you know, we hear from, I'm sure, you know, Caitlin and I and all of us hear from people every day who are able to tell their stories.

And that's what's really important. And, yes, there are the bad apples out there that jump on a bandwagon and I'm sure maybe aren't telling the truth for some reason. And that can happen. I mean, you can't you know i've seen it happen so um with some people so i don't know what what you do about that just pray that you know that there's you know not too many liars out there what what about the the difference that the movement has made would you say for instance the casting couch in your world has that disappeared or is this still ongoing do you think what would you say to that

I would say that um I still have a lot of fear and anxiety around the casting couch I think predators are um and you know, especially in the entertainment business, but everywhere, predators are crafty and cunning. And I worry for anyone who is being groomed by a predator in a position of power, because it will still happen. And so we still have to work to, um, you know, to try to, um, expose those people and to try to create protections for, um, for people in, in the entertainment business, working in the entertainment business and beyond. And I, and Roseanne and I, and, and, and many of, many of us are us are working very hard in that area. And so I don't think the casting couch has gone away, but I do believe that there is

so much more awareness around, you know, just around the prevalence of sexual assault and harassment in the workplace. And I think that hopefully if a young person or anyone is being groomed in that way by a predator, they will have, you know, the Me Too movement to look at and all of us who've spoken out and hopefully, you know, reach out and speak and believe her is about listening. It's not about believing everything that anybody says, you know, in a blanket way. Although it's rare for people to accuse someone falsely of sexual harassment assault.

But like Rosanna said, it does happen. But believe her is really, really about listening. So if people feel that they will be listened to, they are more likely to speak out, and that's really the point. Do you think the casting count is still there, Rosanna, in your experience and also talking to people? I think that they are on so, I'm pretty worried. I mean, I ran into a very big movie star

who I've known through the years. I'm not going to say who it was. And I gave him, he goes, I'm afraid to hug you. Oh, go on, you can tell us who it was. No, no, I can't, I can't. I'm not going to do it. It's just, but they're afraid. People are, I think't. I'm not going to do it. But they're afraid.

People are afraid. I think they're on call. They're on, you know, they are very wary to go there now. But do you prefer that? Do you prefer that there will be... Yes, they should be. No, I meant about the... I know we're probably, and I can already see it, we're getting some messages around, you know, how this has changed the sort of interactions between men and women.

Of course, wary about any form of abuse or assault, but I meant more that wariness between men and women. What do you feel about that? Or do you see it as a kind of necessary part of this? Well, I think it is a necessary part part and then it teaches men to maybe teach to be gentlemen again I mean and you know not just it's and that's okay have some manners you know well we're not of course it was also just a stress the time we're living in now you're not really able to hug anyone because of the pandemic and social distancing uh so that's that's a whole other thing I'm just putting myself back in today that's yeah that's pretty uh so that's that's a whole other thing i'm just putting myself back in today that's yeah that's pretty awful too that's what's happening yeah and it's a shame that

that's happened because we have a whole generation of children now who are growing up you know with learning through zoom schooling and not being able to connect with their people so you're having in in all of this connection online they a disconnect physically, which is sad. And maybe it's just a time for everybody to step back and come back with new manners in some way. Men in particular, you know. Thank you very much to both of you for talking to us today. Rosanna Arquette and Caitlin Delaney stayed up pretty late us there, to talk to us on a year to the day since Harvey Weinstein went into court.

Messages along those lines. As a man, I can say I've been a victim of unwanted sexual advances by predatory older men when I worked in the UK media industry. So I want to point out this is not a female-only issue, says Guy in South London, as we were stressing earlier. The Me Too movement here helped the Muslim Me Too movement emerge. From that, as Muslim women stressing earlier. The Me Too movement here helped the Muslim Me Too movement

emerge. From that, as Muslim women, we've organised even more and several organisations have emerged addressing spiritual abuse by leaders. A message here around dating in terms of how it perhaps has affected in that area. It has been the catalyst for the destruction of the dating market. Young men are no longer willing to approach women because of risks now involved. That's from Seb, who's got in touch. Keep your messages coming in on how perhaps the MeToo movement has impacted your life, what you've seen around you. 84844, perhaps you spoke up in a way that you never thought you would.

But as we were talking about, Harvey Weinstein, now 23 years in prison in upstate New York, following the original allegations of his sexual abuse, the Me Too movement erupted online with shared stories of abuse from women and men of all ages, nationalities and social economic backgrounds. It's estimated 12 million women use the hashtag in the first few months. Those Hollywood stories were only a small percentage of those that have since been told. How have things then changed for women outside of the film industry? Is justice being served for them too? What impact has Me Too had, if any, in that justice system, but also the workplace and in women and men's daily lives? And are there unintended consequences that need correcting? I'm now joined by Gudrun Jung, a defence barrister who spent much of her career defending men against alleged crimes of sexual violence against women. Recently successful in her defence of the former TV presenter,

John Leslie, when he was accused of grabbing a woman's breasts at a Christmas party in 2008. He was cleared. And Sarah Green is also on the line, Director of End Violence Against Women. Good morning to both of you. Sarah, if I may start with you, have there been better outcomes for women in the justice system

since there's been such a groundswell of people speaking out? No, we've actually ironically seen the system kind of buckle at the points when demand has seriously surged, I would say partly in relation to the Me Too movement. So while we do see all around us, part of what you've talked about in the arts and film, but also throughout other areas of life, through politics, higher education, quite a lot of the professions, and even some attempts to create more accountability where women are in very insecure work. So while we see loads of work there, the justice system itself has buckled

and we've actually seen a decline in the numbers of both prosecutions and eventually convictions too. But that does have particular causes and drivers and the justice system, the way it needs to examine and prosecute rape is a lot of people around it with lots of different

points of view would all agree is inherently quite weak because of the nature of our system and that's something actually we have to accept in some ways but from the point of view of the England and Wales justice system right now it is failing to provide the service it minimally should do for those who are seeking justice and very basically the surge in numbers is really important to understand. For a long time the numbers of women and some men reporting rape each year hovered around 15,000 until about 2012 and since then they have massively surged so the last full year has got around 55,000 rapes being reported. That's an incredible change and increase for a system to deal with. However, what it has actually done is buckle and it's prosecuting less cases than it used to do.

Let's bring in Gudrun, of course, at this point, who works in this system. Could I just start by asking, what is sexual assault? How can we define that? Good morning, Emma. Sexual assault is sexual touching of any kind, which is either inherently sexual in its nature or is sexual by virtue of the circumstances or the intention of the person doing it. That the legal definition and is it a crime yes it is a crime so it's a section three of the sexual offences act 2003 do you think anybody who has had as what you've just described do you think they should bring those cases to court and in a well yes the answer, but there are real difficulties with this. So in a perfect world, every complaint of sexual assault would be investigated properly and every prosecution properly resourced. The difficulty is, as Sarah has Sarah, buckling under the weight of the level of complaints that are being made. And it's simply ill-equipped to be able to properly investigate and prosecute every single complaint that is made so there are real difficulties um it's a complex picture in fact

as to why um correspondingly so many there has been such a fall in in cases being charged and prosecuted but certainly um in my view anyway one of the parts of that is about funding and resourcing so so just to be just to be Gudrun, if you're listening to this and you've had, I don't know, your bottom grabbed by your boss at work or something like that, should you take it to the police? Well, if you want to, you should. Will you get justice? It's not for me to say that any woman shouldn't shouldn't

do that and of course um as i said in a perfect world every complaint would be properly investigated but just because of where you work and what you do and we're not in a perfect world and we've seen this this uptick in cases but not more more women, perhaps, or men in these circumstances, although it's majority women, not getting necessarily justice, in inverted commas. Do you think it's a worthwhile thing to do? Because, you know, we've just had a message in, for instance, from somebody saying, you know, I don't want to come forward, actually, because of my family. But I do think the Me Too movement has at least helped with people trying to take this stuff seriously in society. There are reasons why people wouldn't come forward. But if they're listening to this thinking, well, the system's clogged and it's not necessarily equipped to help me, why should I bother? Listen, Emma, it's not for me to say how any woman should react to an offence of sexual

assault and whether or not you want to prosecute it and go through the criminal justice system or just deal with it in your own way is a really personal choice that every woman must make for herself. I'm certainly not going to start saying whether women should or shouldn't come forward with complaints. But if the question is whether or not

the justice system is designed, is guaranteed to give you justice as a result, the answer to that is plainly no. And one of the unintended consequences of the MeToo movement is that, certainly in so far as my experience is concerned, there have been some high profile prosecutions of figures often in the media often in relation to quite low level historic offenses and arguably that's at the expense of um really serious sexual offending that's happening as we speak women who are perhaps less privileged less articulate um not able to come forward in the same way, who are not getting justice, arguably

the expense of other women, more articulate women who feel empowered to come forward as a result of the Me Too movement. That's something I think we should be really concerned about. So as I said, it's not for me to say whether or not any individual woman should make a decision to come forward. But women will find themselves inevitably making complaints and then really frustrated by the fact that either those complaints aren't charged or they come to court and they don't get the result that they want. Let me, could I bring Sarah in at that point? When you hear that reality, Sarah, what is your advice then to women? Because I wonder if you also think perhaps some cases shouldn't be in the courts? I think very broadly, say in the women's movements, the expectation has never been that the criminal justice system is the answer to this and must be the ultimate arbiter, and you know deterrent

it doesn't really constitute a good deterrent there isn't good evidence on any provision of actual deterrence of those with likelihood to perpetrate in the first place so we need some much broader questions asked which i think the me too movement started by tarana burke on behalf of and working with young black girls who were never going to be listened to has really opened up the questions. For example, the question that you pose about if somebody gets hold of your bottom at work or whatever, well, your employer has got a real duty in the first place to be running a workplace where that is not likely to happen because the signals were all there that that behaviour is not tolerated here.

And then there are further questions for serious sexual assault about the other kinds of things that women need when they're in that situation. And usually criminal justice is not the first top of the list answer that women give. They might be looking for help in their families, some time off work perhaps, to be believed by those around them and not automatically blamed and have people taking sides, therapeutic support sometimes and so on. And Me Too, again, has been about opening up sometimes those family and friends conversations about how you're treated and how you're judged, because rape and sexual assault sit in much broader sexual equality and sexual ethics questions, which we've examined and which I can talk about if you like. It's fascinating you say that about opening up between friends and family as well and that there are other forces, if you like, that have to be accountable like employers.

And I do want to come back to the workplace in just a moment. But Anna has got in touch she's in York's and says a close woman relative unfriended me and has hardly spoken to me since I posted me too because if it was true I should be ashamed to admit it of course this is the shame that has always kept women separate and silent I think me too is brilliant so speaking to one of your points there Sarah um could I ask you Sarah for your take just on and talking about another unintended consequence here? Could you give us a sense of how big an issue it is or not of men being falsely accused off the back of MeToo? Sure. Well, it's an interesting question and it always comes up. And if I will answer it really clearly, but just to say first of all, because this was in your earlier discussion, I think what is going on with Me Too is that it's got a very long life so far. It's not a

flash in the pan. And it is shaking kind of social norms around behaviour between men and women. And a lot of people don't like it. And that is always the case with big social justice issues. I'd say the same thing is going on with racism right now after the enormous attention to racism through 2020 related to George Floyd related to Covid and who was experiencing it worse and so on you shake it and these issues come up and some people really don't like it and part of the answer when people don't like being shaken is to make the question about them so men making the question oh I don't know if I can give you a hug now, or you've ruined kind of online dating with your accusations, is about turning the question back to, oh, it's about me and what I can and can't do. But actually, something much

bigger is at stake. To answer your question, so in the criminal justice context, the question becomes, oh, what about false accusations? Aren't there loads of them? And the idea that there are lots of false accusations of rape is actually hangs very much on the idea on deeply misogynistic rape myths that women cry rape, women make it up, women cry rape after sex that they regret. It's not well founded. The actual research in this area, so the CPS itself commissioned research on this about seven years ago, where it found there were very low rates of false allegations of rape, which is, after all, a crime in itself, which can be prosecuted if you deliberately make such a serious allegation about somebody when it's not true. So that found very, very low rates, something like in the very low figures for something like the five figure accusations of rape included something in the double figures. It's tiny when it comes to rape and sexual assault and what is being accused there, of course, in the social media era.

What would you say about that in terms of the number of falsely accused? Well, I'd say, again, the question is still about, I think we have to examine the presumption that people might just make it up and people might creep onto social media and use it as a shaming tactic. What is more important is the enormous range of conversations that Me Too has led to online. So the greater good as opposed to this smaller, very much smaller side of it? Certainly, because I think we just have to be really careful about the ideas around false allegations. And I'm not saying they don't happen. They do happen.

There are a few prosecutions each year. But online, for example, we've got a conversation about stealthing. So something that was rarely named or spoken about before. And we've kind of surveyed attitudes on it. That's when if listeners are not aware, when a man removes a condom without consent during sex and hasn't told the woman he's having sex with that he's done that. That's a very serious sexual assault, rape, in fact. But that behaviour was not described and wasn't being talked about. And now we can now we've got more of a conversation about it. Similarly, we've got conversations now,

some of them about the race stereotypes that are involved in rape, and the outcomes for both perpetrators and for victims from ethnic minority communities. So those conversations were less present before. And this is it's very powerful. And it's really it's something we should remember. That's about the cage being rattled about sexual norms and about what is acceptable behaviour between men and women. Yes. And let me let me bring Gudrun back at this point, because you are in a situation where you do speak to some of those men who have been falsely accused. And the reason I'm just coming to you on this, of course, because this is your area. This is a big part of your career. I just wanted to say that we asked a couple of men on today

who found themselves being essentially trialed by social media. It didn't go to court in the cases we were talking to them about. And they did not wish to come on. They did't go to court in the cases we were talking to them about. And they did not wish to come on. They did not wish to talk about this. They did not want to talk about the shame. Would you advise, for instance, John Leslie to come on Woman's Hour? He's been cleared. Would he talk about this? I'm not his media consultant. But I can see why neither he nor other men who have been accused of things would want to come on and talk about it. The difficulty with this, and don't get me wrong, Emma, I'm not saying that women are going around making false allegations willy nilly for no reason.

But not every allegation is going to be true. Things aren't always clear cut. There may be different kinds of truth, different interpretations of events, things that are misrepresented or misremembered over the passage of time. And the difficulty, one of the difficulties with the Me Too movement, and what's positive about it is that it really has brought to the forefront the reality of the prevalence of sexual violence against women, and I'm all for that. But the difficulty is you put something on Twitter, and it can't be tested. It can't be subject to scrutiny. And people can say things without any accountability.

And allegations of a sexual nature have a unique stigma. They can destroy a life in a moment. You put out a tweet. Part of the meeting movement has been aimed at naming and shaming individuals. So there are men whose lives, reputations, careers have been ruined on the basis of a trial by Twitter. And we should all as a society be really concerned about that. This isn't about saying, oh, poor men who are the victims of these awful women going around making false allegations. But the cornerstone of a civilised society is the presumption of innocence. It's about the fact that there should be due process in terms of allegations being tested and tried and scrutinised as they are in a court of law. And that doesn't happen in the court of social media. And there are many... And what about, I was just going to say, away from social media for a moment,

in the court of the law that you work in you know not every man who does walk free is in your particular area that we're talking about here is innocent it's just that there might not have been the evidence is that hard as a woman for you to reconcile that um i'm a woman and i'm but i'm a barrister and i'm passionately committed as a barrister to the fairness of the criminal justice system, which really is at the cornerstone of any democratic society. And at the heart of that lies the presumption of innocence, that you are innocent until you are proved to be guilty. It's a really high standard, but it's there for an extremely good reason.

And it does mean that sometimes guilty men will go free. But we have that high standard because we say as a society that it's better that some guilty men go free than a single innocent person is convicted. And I uphold that, absolutely. So on balance, that's where you would come out on that. That's exactly where I would come out. And I have represented people and achieved acquittals for people who in my own private opinion I may think may be guilty but that's absolutely my job and I do it fiercely and

passionately as all defence barristers should. The question I'm always asked is how can you defend people that you know are guilty and the question I'm never asked which I think is in fact the more interesting one is it's much more stressful and difficult to defend people that you think in fact may be innocent if someone's guilty I do my job if they're convicted or acquitted I've done my job and and and that's it's essential for the system to run that barristers like me represent people no matter what they're accused of, no matter what the evidence is. The whole system only works because people are prepared to represent anyone, whatever they're accused of, whether that's rapists or terrorists or anyone else. And we play our part. We defend them fiercely.

Yes. Well, let me, if I if i may at this point bring in the author lionel shriver because we want to now talk a bit more about what perhaps also has happened because of me too but where it should go now and and if it should still keep going as it has been or it needs to change and lionel good morning i know that you you've got strong views on this and in some way you uh you you think it's run its Tell us more, because you say it's also trivialized what it's set out to expose this movement. Well, I broadly supported Me Too when it first took off with the Harvey Weinstein stuff. I mean, that was serious criminal behavior. And I think everyone was suitably appalled. But I think there's a parallel here with the Black Lives Matter movement in that, you know, I felt the same way when George Floyd was murdered.

Along with everyone else, I was upset, outraged even. But that movement rapidly went off the deep end and so did Me Too. A poll recently said that a majority of Britons think that Black Lives Matter has actually made race relations worse. I think we could probably say the same thing of Me Too, that from a step back on a larger level made it into the headlines. And whereas we were initially talking about serious sexual assault and rape, we quickly degenerated into, you know, the unwelcome touch of a knee. I mean, we actually lost a secretary of defense in the UK, literally from touching a knee. And that's, you know, that's a problem even for women who have suffered from serious sexual assault,

because those are not equivalent. What would you say to that, Sarah? You're talking there, Lionel Shriver, about Sir Michael Fallon and an incident with a journalist to remind our listeners. But what would you say to that, Sarah? I hear it, but obviously I don't agree. I think, again, I think the comparison between Me Too and the attention to racism after George Floyd's murder is really, really striking. So I think if Lionel there is citing, you know, relations between men and women being somehow worse now, I don't know how you'd quite measure it. But and the poll that was done about race relations in the UK, the point is that there is power and conversations about equality over time,

given our histories are really, really hard and they're being challenged and shaken right now. And what is considered normal is moving and changing. So, for example, around racism, we've got a conversation finally going on about whether the simple right to life when you're being dealt with by the police, about equal access to healthcare, about being treated fairly at school and so on.

Is it really, really radical? And is it upsetting race relations to say that those things should just be fair? Can I just keep it on me? I understand the parity that you're trying to draw, the comparison. Well, same with me too. But what is actually, you know, do you think or do you know if would-be abusers are no longer doing it, for instance? Because that's the proof, isn't it?

I think. That people are behaving differently. Do you think they are? Yeah, I do. I think it's easy actually to minimise it by saying it's a pinch on the bottom and it's a touch of the knee. But actually, if you look at our institutions, if you look from the BBC, where you are, through to lots of the professions, politics itself, which has had a terrible kind of me too reckoning, I think the way that institutions and the people who run them and who've got responsibility, the way they now understand the risk they're at, but also their responsibility and their obligations towards employees and the kind of environment they create has changed.

You think that's changed? Lionel, do you think it's changed? And do you think perhaps Me Too's changed women for the better in how they view themselves? What's your take on that? I don't think profoundly. I think it may have changed Ben a little, but I like the idea that it's made them better mannered. I'm afraid that it's more the case that it's made them more paranoid and a little more hostile. And I worry that because of this lack of proportion that the movement tended to display in its latter phases, that it has diminished women to a degree in the eyes of men in a way that they're not on having been a victim and is less interested. We're going to have to leave it there, but it's something definitely to think about.

Lionel Shriver, Gurdjieff Young, Sarah Green, huge things to think about, as I say, and more to discuss. Thank you for your time. Hello, this is Jane Garvey. I'm with my broadcasting friend, Fi Glover. Come in, Fi. Oh, thank you, darling. Thank you.

How are you? All right. We do a podcast together called Fortunately. It has been surprisingly successful and you'd be, honestly, you'd be really quite, quite choked with emotion to discover that other people have found us. Some of them have quite enjoyed it, other people like carping. We welcome all comers, we don't care who you are, where you are, what you do or what you think as long as you're prepared to join with us in well what do we do fee we kind of unravel we unburden we unload what do we do we're a self-help group of two that other people quite like to witness and we don't really mind if you laugh with us or at us you're just welcome aboard a slightly rickety

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