Woman's Hour - Mexico election, Queenie actor, Breast milk donor

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

Claudia Sheinbaum will become Mexico's first woman president after an historic election win. BBC Journalist Laura Garcia joins Nuala McGovern to discuss what this moment means for the women and girls of Mexico. A new immersive exhibition, Connecting Hearts, by Swansea University, the Human Milk Foundation and artist Leanne Pearce, shows the impact of donating and receiving human milk. One of the paintings is of Claire-Michelle Pearson - a 'snowdrop' donor. She donated over 300 litres of milk after her son, Rupert, died during labour. She tells Nuala how it helped her grieve.Candice Carty-Williams’ debut novel, Queenie, has been adapted into a series for Channel 4. It tells the story of a 25-year-old woman as she straddles two different cultures at the same time as navigating romantic relationships, family stresses and work pressure. Dionne Brown plays Queenie in the series – she joins Nuala to tell us more about the series.A 20-year-old man who allegedly raped a 12-year-old girl in Spain has been acquitted because the court deemed their relationship ‘common’ as members of the Roma community. So what does this mean for the protection of Roma women and girls against violence across Europe? Nuala is joined by Judit Ignácz, from The European Roma Rights Centre, an international organisation working to combat discrimination against the Roma population, to discuss.A new type of blood test can predict the recurrence of breast cancer months or even years before it shows up on scans, which could potentailly pave the way for treatment to start before it becomes incurable. Nuala is joined by Simon Vincent, director of research, support and influencing at Breast Cancer Now, who part-funded this study. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, as you're hearing, Mexico has a new president and it's a woman for the very first time. But what difference will that make? That is all coming up in just a moment. Also, if you read Queenie, the book by Candice Carty-Williams, you are in for a treat because it's now coming to life in a TV series. Diane Brown, who plays Queenie, will be with us in the Woman's Hour studio. Also this hour, we will hear about a new blood test that could actually predict before a breast cancer relapse. And we'll discuss the contentious

court decision in Spain to acquit a man who raped a 12-year-old girl from the Roma community, calling it part of the cultural reality of that community. And we will hear the incredibly moving story of the woman who lost her baby and decided to donate her breast milk. You can text the programme, the number is 844, 84844, excuse me, 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. And if you'd like to send us instead a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. But let us turn to Mexico because for the first time in its history, Mexico has elected a female president,

Claudia Sheinbaum. Get ready to recognise that name. She was victorious over Xochitl Galvez and we can hear a burst from the new president who's been speaking very recently. So, president-elect Shane Baum saying, I want to thank

the millions of Mexicans who decided to vote for us on this historic day. And then she goes on to say that she is grateful to become the first ever woman president of Mexico. Now, while the fact that the two front runners were women was widely celebrated, the campaign was marred by violent attacks and it was local candidates in particular who were targeted in the run-up to this vote.

The government says more than 20 were killed across Mexico, although other surveys put the total as higher. And violence against women is likely to be a key issue in the president-elect's entree. As a country has one of the highest femicide rates in the world, around 11 women a day are murdered on average. I'm joined in studio by my colleague Laura Garcia, who is a journalist with BBC Mundo. Welcome. Lovely to be here.

Well, for some people, they will not be familiar at all with Miss Shane Baum. Tell us a little bit about her. So Claudia Shane Baum has been a figure in Mexican politics for a while now. And she, this is not the first time she does a first for women. So if we track back a little bit, she comes from a family of scientists, she grew up loving ballet, but eventually, her love of science took her that way. She was one of the first women or one of the first women to get a doctorate in environmental engineering sciences at the UNAM when she was studying. And then her first big political break came with the man who is

currently the president now, who made her environmental secretary for Mexico City when she was 37. And then eventually in 2018, she became the first woman to be the mayor of Mexico City, which is an enormous city. It's not just the capital of my country where I'm from, but it's 25 million odd people who are all there together. And what it means politically for the country that she was at the head of it was enormous. That was her last post in politics that she then quit last year in order to run for the presidency. And when she ran, what were the issues that defined her campaign? So she is part of the party that was founded by the now president, Andres Manuel

López Obrador. And as one of the founding members, she really believes in politically what they're trying to do. They call it La Cuarta Transformación, the fourth transformation, identifying three other big parts or times in Mexican history when there's been enormous changes, the independence, the reform period, our revolution, and calling this this the fourth one. And what that means, or what they wanted to mean is an enormous transformation of separating political power from economic power, and centering it on welfare and social policies. It's interesting, because I know he would have pointed to a rising level of quality of life, of income, for example, for many Mexicans. Some talking instead was that remittances from abroad that were being sent to Mexico that then improved the quality of life. So lots of questions about the economy. But, you know, Mexico is a country of contrasts. I was reading in 2019, it took this remarkable step of making gender parity in all three branches of government a constitutional requirement.

How much do you think that played into having these two women leading the race? So the Mexico that I left when I kind of came over to the UK to start working here in 2011, was a completely different place to the Mexico that is electing a woman into office today. And like you mentioned, the law in 2019 was a big change, but that was not the first step. So the first step for that was in 2002, when they introduced quotas for about 30% of spots that had to be women running.

Then the problem was that parties would nominate them in seats they knew they would lose. So they had to change that in 2014. Then they made it 50-50. And same thing happened again. Parties started to nominate them in places where they knew that they didn't have as many chances. And 2019 made that law even more robust.

And this is a change that has been fought by hundreds of women in legal cases. And I think that's important to say. Claudia is the woman and the name that we're talking about now. But the progress in Mexican politics and for women's rights in Mexico has been fought by loads of women and organizations. And the change is really stark. 2018 was the first time that our Congress, our legislative chamber was 50-50 or almost 50-50. Like when we got to parity, you can see it in the number of governor women who have been elected. Most of them came in in 2021.

And some of the experts that we've spoken to or that my colleagues have spoken to at BBC Mundo say that maybe the reticence of putting women on the ballot was more from parties than from citizens who were probably ready to vote for women before. But this law has changed the conditions and started to bring more women into politics. Because as I talk about contrast as well, you mentioned some of the figures there that are very uplifting. When people look at gender parity within the country, the Chief Justice of the Mexican Supreme Court is a woman, the leaders of both houses of Congress and the central bank governor as well. But we've also mentioned at the beginning this rate of femicide, 11 women a day murdered because they are a woman.

Is that something that Shane Baum has spoken out on? Yeah, she has. And that rate is also hard to count because a bunch of these crimes don't necessarily get reported or they happen outside of big urban areas. Claudia Sheinbaum has spoken about how she wants to create a special legislative body to look into, specifically femicide. So femicide as a thing in Mexican law exists since 2007. And that has meant a distinct change in how we record crimes that come from gender kind of motivations, and then also how we prosecute it. And she has said that's one of the things that she would like to focus on. Has she been known as a champion of women's rights? I know she's had an extraordinary path herself. I think she's been known as someone who's incredibly methodical. And her government in Mexico City was a time when security was a big priority for her government. But security in a broader sense,

I think everyone sees her as a champion or the impression that I get from the conversations I've had with people is that she champions women to go in, science to include more women, to include more women's voices. But that gender perspective is also a bit broader in terms of her politics, I think. Because you talk about security there, just looking at this presidential election, at least 20 local candidates were killed in the run up to this. And that's sadly not unusual for my country. And it's a question of the distinction between what happens at a national level and a local level when it comes to security and politics.

The level of how our democracy functions at different places. The figures are hard to estimate. Again, you read it at the beginning. The government has some figures. Human rights watch organizations have higher figures. But the figure that I think tells you the bigger picture is one that comes from an organization called Data Civica. And they study the relationship between violence in elections and participation. And every time

there is an attack on a local candidate in that region, it drops 3% in turnout. So that has a humongous impact for the people who are voting in that community. And it also is the counterpart to another part of what we're going to see with this presidency that maybe is missing a little bit from the conversation, which is violence towards women online and political violence towards women online. And that's not specific to Mexico, we see it in the UK. When women are running, for example, in campaigns. When women are running in campaign or when women are in office, and it's a concern I heard from the women and academics and leaders that I've been speaking to in the past couple weeks. How are we going to deal with that? How is Mexico going to deal with that

as a country when you have a woman as a leader? And how do we make sure that we can critique a government because that's important and scrutinize without falling into these, what can be more violent conversations online that tend to be directed at women and then put off other women from entering politics. What has the mood been like? You've been chatting to people, no doubt, back home. What has it been like in Mexico following this result? Because it's really, isn't it, this morning that this has happened?

Well, that's the thing. I would have loved to have been in the middle of Mexico City to see what the party was like. Didn't sleep anyway, because my WhatsApp was going crazy. From the past couple weeks, speaking to kind of activists, academics, the mood is hopeful, but cautious. It is, like you say, a country of two realities, of two faces. The historic first is very important and what it will mean. And maybe the better way to portray that is through paraphrasing two of the most powerful things I heard through my conversations with women. The first one came from an academic who said, I'm not excited about 2024,

the first woman president. I'm excited about the woman president we're going to have in 2050. The little girl who's watching right now and who is finally visualizing herself as president, or the little boy, right, who is growing up in a different country and they can imagine that. And the second one comes from another activist who said, female body doesn't guarantee feminist thought. And that is, I think, reflects both sides of the conversations that are happening in Mexico right now. The importance of the historical marker of what it means that Claudia Sheinbaum has been chosen as the first woman to be president. And also the reticence or the nuance of the reality of what Mexico is. Laura Garcia, really interesting.

My colleague from BBC Mundo, thanks so much for coming in to us this morning. Sleep deprived, but full of energy and information. Well, speaking about elections, we are now fully into the campaign for the general election in the UK, with parties setting out their stall on the issues

that they hope will persuade you, the voters, to choose them. Now, you will have seen this morning that the Conservatives have spoken out on the subject of sex and gender. They're promising to rewrite the Equality Act so that protections it enshrines on the subject of sex and gender. They're promising to rewrite the Equality Act

so that protections it enshrines on the basis of a person's sex apply to their biological sex. Labour's Sir Keir Starmer is today pitching his party as, and I quote, the party of national security, unquote, focusing on defence ahead of a visit to meet veterans. And the Liberal Democrats, they've announced an expansion of marine protected areas

and a new blue flag status for rivers. The SNP instead launched their campaign yesterday, saying they will demonstrate why achieving independence is vital for Scotland. Well, here on Woman's Hour, we're planning our interviews with party leaders about the issues that matter most to you. Do let us know what they are. You can send your thoughts, your questions by text that number 84844 on social media we're at bbc women's hour or for whatsapp messages or voice notes the number is 03700 and of course you can always email us through our website let me move on. Did you know that just like blood, you can donate human milk? A new immersive art exhibition in Wales explores the stories of people that havesea University, the Human Milk Foundation and the artist Leanne Pierce. And one of the paintings in that exhibition is of Claire Michelle Pearson.

In October 2021, her life changed when she was told that her son Rupert had died during labour at 41 weeks. But instead of using medication to stop her breast milk, she decided to express it and became known as a snowdrop donor. And Claire joins me now. Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me on. It's a great opportunity to talk about

not only my son, but also about the milk bank and what they can do for people. It's really important to share that message. So thank you. Well, thank you for sharing it with us. I mentioned very briefly there, Clare, and I'm so sorry that you went through this, that you went into labour at 41 weeks and six days, I believe. And then when did you find out that that's something had gone horribly wrong? So we went into the hospital thinking everything was fine. And they did the Doppler on me when we got into the room. And the midwives just looked at each other and I knew something was wrong.

But of course, they can't tell you they have to have a doctor come and confirm um and I just remember staring at the ceiling in this weird limbo between hoping I was wrong but also kind of knowing that something isn't right I'd been for so many of these Doppler appointments during my pregnancy you know when they find the heartbeat they know you know what it feels like and it just didn't feel the same and um i i still remember really vividly the doctor saying to me claire this baby has died and i completely disassociated in that moment and i remember hearing my husband cry out like a wounded animal um and something that I don't think people always appreciate as well is that I was in the

middle of labor so I still have to go through it I can't just go right okay so he's died so that's that's that no I still have to go through physical aspects of birthing a child, knowing that he has passed away as well. Yes. So that was easily the worst experience of my life. It's horrific. to us by bringing us there to that moment which makes you all the more extraordinary because you were able to decide to donate your breast milk which had obviously come in and I'm wondering how that happened from that moment that you're telling us about there. Thankfully I already knew about it. I was in a hypnobirthing group with a group of ladies that were all due at different times. So I was due in the October and one of the ladies had her baby in the June or July time. And she it was her second baby as well.

And she shared on social media that she was donating to the Hearts Milk Bank, who are part of the Human Milk Foundation. And I thought that's that's totally in my wheelhouse I'm an organ donor I like to volunteer we were already planning on donating cord blood and other pregnancy materials for research so I thought yep that's exactly something that I would like to do and I spoke to my family about it and it turned out my gran had donated milk in the 60s as well. Not quite in the same way. It was more in a rudimentary way that while she was in hospital, she found that she had an oversupply. And so they gave it to other babies in the hospital.

So, yes, I thankfully already knew about it. And after I had given birth, a midwife came in and said oh yeah and I'll go get the medication to dry up your milk there was no discussion around it it was just a given that I would be given the medication and like I say thankful I already knew that there was another option and I said no no no I want to donate I still want to donate and I'd spoken to my husband about it as well I didn't want to do anything that would be difficult for him um I know it's my body my my choice um but he is part of my family he we're a team and it was important to me that he was on board with that as well and so what was this was there doubt in your mind there Claire

because I mean from an outsider I'm you're shaking your head no no no no absolutely no I didn't think that he would have any problems with it but I wanted to respect his his grief experience as well but also for you I'm thinking you just on the outside, you've gone through something so emotionally and physically traumatic and you want to do this. But did you have any fears for yourself taking this path? I guess for me, when Rupert died, everything felt random and out of control you know life feels like it should follow certain rules you are not meant to bury your children they are supposed to bury you and so it was about taking back some control for me it was something I could do that was for him in his honor and I could share a bit of him and his gift with the world

that that night we were still in the hospital and I could hear other children being born and I remember thinking thank god that they those people in that room aren't going through what we went through and then looking at the hearts milk bank website that that night looking at other people's stories recipient stories I I just knew it was it was something I needed to do I needed to be able to help other people in Rupert's honor and have him have an impact on the world in that way but then you've also it's not even just signing a piece of paper which is a huge thing to do if you were to donate an organ, etc. It's, you have to do the physical act of expressing that milk. Yes. And I was prepared to do that for him, had he have lived anyway.

When Rupert died, so many things were taken from me as as a woman and that experience of motherhood there are so many different nuanced parts to it that are removed when your baby dies when when your baby comes into the world people want to you know your female friends will ask you how did the birth go nobody asked me that because there was this bigger thing grief and death hanging over all of that and so I know that sounds I guess it's one of the nuances of loss that those things are taken from you. And I didn't want to not experience that facet of motherhood as well. And so I know what my body can do. I know how it feels to express milk.

I can talk about breast pumps. I can talk about what it feels like to be engorged I haven't had those experiences taken from me as well I was able to to do those things and I know it's not for everybody I know that there are some women who the act of of lactating after your baby has died is it's a horrible thought for them but for me it wasn't that at all it was very much the opposite I felt like it it's my son's milk and I could help other people maybe even save a life in his honor because newborn babies underweight babies can die um from something called necrotizing endocolitis, NEC, where their bowel dies. And formula milk does not help to stop that, whereas breast milk can help.

The evidence shows even pasteurized donor milk can help to save babies' lives in that instance. So tell me a little bit more, more Claire about where your milk was going. So I sent my milk to my local milk bank is the Hearts Milk Bank again part of the Human Milk Foundation and I know that early milk went to some people in the community so they are maybe mothers who are struggling with their own lactation journey and they just need that that little bit of breathing room to help them establish their own their own journey mothers who uh have experienced uh cancers including breast cancer and find that they they can't produce their own milk, but they want their own babies to have breast milk. Children in NICU. So that's the neonatal intensive care units?

Yes, and special care baby units as well. So there's a range of people that are recipients of human milk. And it's an incredibly profound, special thing to be able to do. You know, profound was the word that came to me, Claire, when you were describing not being able to share the labor that you went through with people that people didn't ask you, you know, for that. And you were saying, you know, it's just one nuance. But to me, it struck me as profound. So I think that word is the right one to use in these circumstances. The artist, Leanne Pearce, I mentioned at the beginning,

I believe she's done a beautiful and very moving painting of you for the exhibition. Do you want to describe it to our listeners? So when I was asked if I wanted to take part and represent the Snowdrop donors, I considered what kind of picture I wanted to supply. And I've got lots of pictures of me holding up bags full of milk, straining under the weight of it all, because thankfully I had an oversupply. So I was able to donate lots. I'm just going to digress for one second you produced 343.2 liters yes in the first six months

I gave 300 liters then I wound down my supply for another three months and the reason I did that partly was because I wanted to gently wind down my supply and avoid mastitis, but also because while I was donating, I was asked if I wanted to take part in BECCS, which is the Breast Milk Epigenetic Cohort Study, which Dr. Schenker, one of the founders, and Imperial College London are doing. And it required a donation of 100 millilitres every three months to be studied. So that's why I ended up doing it for nine months.

But back to the picture. No, back to the picture. You were thinking, is it holding up these vast quantities of milk that you had produced? Yes. So in those pictures, I'm happy. I'm full of pride. And I just thought they don't necessarily convey the experience of being a snowdrop donor. And so I'd also given this other picture where I'm sat, I'm looking into the camera and I've got my top up. And you can see that I've got a top on under my top and you can see just the lights from the

breast pump and I look sad because as much as I there were lots of times when I enjoyed lactating and pumping there were times where in those quiet moments I would reflect on my grief and I was sad and I would cry and you know the milk would flow and so would the tears and that's an important part of representing a snowdrop donor I think and you know being part of the whole story of milk donation alongside the babies that receive it the women that donate your story as expected of course has touched listeners may i read some of the comments that have come in claire of course um claire articulates this so beautifully such a special and courageous lady and what a precious gift to pass on. Another, your story of a late stillbirth and then donating milk is almost identical to mine. I too straight away said I would donate her milk until it stopped naturally.

I've had to stop my car because the memory it has brought back. My beautiful girl was 43 weeks and I went through the same experience of the midwife's face as she used the Doppler. Another 38 years ago after the birth of my son I was lucky enough to produce milk for three premature babies. A local midwife came and collected my milk each day at home for me to donate. And another

I was born in 1949 and while my mum was in hospital she breastfed me but she also fed the twins of another mum. She was so proud of what she had done for the rest of her life and that one from Kate, 84844 if you'd like to send a message to Claire that I'm speaking to

right now I want to give a massive hug to those ladies that have expressed their stories it's the worst club in the world to be in so thank you to them for sharing their stories as well um i just wanted to add as well that my local hospital have been incredibly receptive to talking to me um i've done a recorded interview with the bereavement midwife tracy

um which she shared with um other midwives during some of their teaching to talk about choices it's really important to talk about choices and I'm I'm always keen to to phrase it in that way as well I know breast milk donation isn't for everybody but I think talking about whether someone wants to take the medication which has side potentially, or whether they want to naturally wind down their milk, whether they want to donate once or whether they want to do a more continued donation, which I did. I'd like to point out as well that I think that's on the rarer side. I don't want anyone to feel like they have to donate for as long as I did. Some people give one or two gifts in their baby's honour. More messages coming in. This one, thank you, Clare, for educating us on how better to handle talking with people

who have had experiences similar to yours, Clare. And another one from Catherine in Worthing. She says, I've never messaged a radio show before, but hearing Clare talk so eloquently about her decision to donate milk after her son died really moved me. What an amazing woman. Thank you. Why don't we leave it on that?

Thank you so much for spending some time with us. And I think it'll make a lot of people think about the experience you've had, but also what you were doing as a Snowdrop donor. That is Clare Michelle Pearson. Thanks so much to her. Now, you will have heard this morning, no doubt, the sad news of the death of the rugby league legend Rob Burrow following a four and a half year battle

with motor neuron disease. Now, since his diagnosis, his wife, Lindsay, has been his carer. Last year, she took part in her first marathon, the Rob Burrow Leeds Marathon, and raised over £100,000 towards a new specialist, Motor Neuron Disease Centre,

which is to be built in her husband's name. Ground is actually being broken on the new centre this morning, as you may have heard, and that's also what Rob wanted to continue. Lindsay joined us here on Woman's Hour after running that marathon and I wanted to bring you just a short section of that interview that we had. You know from when Rob was diagnosed he wanted to show the effects of the disease and the effects not that it just has on the person that has the

disease but also the impact it has on on the family and the carers and rob wanted to use his platform to to go out and tell his story to help might be the postman or the bricklayer or somebody that doesn't have that voice and when rob was diagnosed back in december 2019 we were told that rob would have maybe a year to two years to live and i think rob sort of made it his mission to to of be that voice along with, you know, the likes of the great late Doddy Weir and Stephen Darby and now Ed Slater that, you know, for that whole MND community, I think it's so important to raise that awareness and give people hope.

And that was Lindsay Burrow, who was speaking on Woman's Hour on the 8th of June, 2003. So if you'd like to go back and listen to that full interview, which is on BBC Sounds, messages continue to come in. For Clare, a huge thank you. My daughter was premature and underweight and received donor milk for some of the reasons mentioned. My daughter is now nine and thriving and we will be forever grateful.

If you have experienced baby loss, there are links on our websites for support and advice. And if you'd like to see that exhibition we were talking about, it's on at the Swansea University before moving around the country. And there is more information about donating milk. You can visit the Human Milk Foundation website. Now, I want to move on to what the Guardian called an important political term of black womanhood.

The author herself called it a black Bridget Jones. Talking about the book Queenie, maybe you wrote it, maybe you wrote it, maybe you've read it. It was written by Candice Carty-Williams. It tells the story of a 25-year-old British Jamaican woman living in London, trying to straddle two different cultures, finding it a little difficult, perhaps, fitting into either. Now, Queenie has been made into an eight-part series. It begins on Channel 4 tomorrow night at 10pm. Let's listen to a little.

Queenie, I ain't seen you for a long time. I live with my boyfriend now. If you two had children, I would be lovely. I don't know what's wrong with me. It's this quarter-life crisis thing that everyone's talking about on TikTok. You're not on my side, Tom. I can't take the drama. Your laugh's looking a bit...

messy. I'm loud, sassy. I can't not be a strong black woman. Forgiveness is hard, but I've seen you conquer things that were much harder. I love the soundtrack as well. Well, joining me in studio is Dionne Brown, who plays Queenie herself. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I was mentioning that very popular book, of course, that it is based on.

But how would you describe the character for those who haven't read it? Thank you for having me, first of all. To describe the character for those who haven't read it, you said it perfectly when you were introducing it. She's 25 years old and she's going through a quarter life crisis and she's trying to navigate her way and find her identity within love and work and friendship and all the relationships around her and it's it's whirlwind. And it's kind of a quarter life crisis, right? That's going on. But she has her work going on. She's got her family. She's got her friends. But as I was watching it, it felt each of those worlds were quite suffocating. What do you think?

Yeah, 110%. I think it's just a question of fulfillment for her at this stage. I mean, I'm sure anybody could relate to getting to a certain age and feeling like you haven't ticked a box or you haven't ticked all the boxes and it seems so easy and like you would the big question is who am I without the things that I thought were going to make me happy and what are those things now and how do I get them how do I procure my happiness it's all self-love which I know sounds a bit you know it might sound a bit too heavy for this time of the morning but I think it's it's that is her inner question that's in her inner monologue it's she's trying to find her way back to herself inner monologue is she's trying to find her way back to herself. Inner monologue is a really good way of putting it because it's all kind of through her eyes her ears her texts that we get to know about her. Do you feel you share much with Queenie as a character? Yeah for sure I think maybe not much I'm a little bit older than her so I can definitely relate of course I think anyone could but I definitely think our sensitivity is something that um we have in common and it was definitely something I had to be reflective and accepting of whilst I was shooting be reflective of just of my my own sensitivity and

how in certain spaces women are not encouraged to employ that part of their emotional side or their mental side. It's like you can't be sensitive. You can't cry. You can't be, you know, you can't be sad. You can't be mean. You have to be happy. You have to be, you know, stiff upper lip. You have to smile.

You have to present outwardly as if you are OK and well. And she's not. And so we see all of that but it's also because we talk about these very deep issues that she's going through but it's also very funny right it was funny filming it was a great time was it yeah yeah and i also particularly like of course the character of your best friend who's kind of cheskay your best friend, who's kind of... Cheskay. Yeah, Cheskay, who's kind of keeping you on... Yin and yang. Exactly. I was about to say straight and narrow, but that's not really... That might be actually really good as well. Straight and narrow is also a good one, for sure.

And I felt, I read the book and I loved it. Same. I felt it was such a true representation of the book that it just came to life in front of me um but you did work a lot with Candice Carthy Williams what was that like yeah it was amazing she was a showrunner so she was always on set she was always available she was always to hand and she always had open ears and open arms and it was such a privilege because she's she's the architect she's the writer um so yeah there were there were a lot of times where i was just like asking loads and loads of

questions that would that went towards the development of the character for sure um and it all i think informed the performance so and when i think of it with the episodes that i've watched it's women women women women it's queenie's friends, as we talked about, Cheskay, her grandmother, her aunt, her mum, who is hilarious. Talk me through what it was like being on set. With all the women? Yeah.

It was great. I feel like there was, the set was, the cast is women heavy. The crew was also women heavy. And I just think there was so much fellowship whilst we were shooting and I felt like as the lead there were a lot of arms around me and I feel that there still were and I think we all had arms around each other which I I believe is super super important there was a lot of camaraderie um and yeah it was just a really loving space I feel

it felt like everyone was really banding together to make to make it the best like everyone was putting their best foot forward toward the project which was amazing I also understand that women on set helped you through some of the more awkward scenes as well yeah like the sex scenes yeah Adelaide Waldrop was my the intimacy coordinator who's um she was hired for Queenie and she's amazing loads and loads of love to her. And yeah, it was I don't know, it was the first time I I'd never done intimate scenes. I'm a recent graduate and I hadn't been intimate with anybody in school and then jumped onto this project. And I was like, oh, I have my listeners, I'm sure, are actors and maybe have been in intimacy scenes. But for a lot of people, we won't know what that's like. Yeah, well, I think the times have definitely changed around it for sure. Like the conversations around intimacy, what they looked like maybe five years ago is not what they are now.

There's a lot more safeguarding with it. And it's a lot more technical I think than I had anticipated I put my hand here and you put your hand there that's it it's literally like I'm gonna put my left hand on your right shoulder do you consent and if you don't then I can't do that I was like you know Adelaide would be like just map out the safe spaces in front of you and we we just do do this and you're pushing your hand up and down your arm yeah or like yeah it's like don't don't touch me here or don't touch my face or you know um and there were like riders you have like you know your nudity or intimacy riders and you those can be altered at any time at your behest if you're like do you know what I consented to my scene partner

touching my lower back but now I think that's a bit too close. I would prefer if that didn't happen, then I could amend, have that amended or have that edited. So you have all that going on and you've also got to act. Yeah, you've also got to look like there's lust going on. But all the boys were so lovely. They were so lovely and they were so respectful and gentle and I think we all just respected each other's boundaries and space and each other's autonomy you know we everything was an open discussion so when we got to it it was quite comfortable I'm going to be watching

them even closer in the episodes that I have left because it's eight parts. What do you want people to get from Queenie when they watch it? I think I want people to get that it's OK to not have all the answers. It's OK to be messy and it's OK to love yourself in all seasons. And yeah. Messy is an interesting word, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of like the crux of how Queenie is feeling. She feels, but...

But she's like, I can't appear that way. I'm 25. I should have it figured out by now. I should have it. It should be perfect. It should be in place. You know, I should be married and having kids and have a boyfriend and have a job. And she doesn't have any of that.

And it feels like mess. And some of that... it's it feels like mess and some of that she's so deeply uncomfortable and some of that coming from a more traditional conservative Jamaican background that her family wants yeah but perhaps a lot of her peers are not doing yeah well we have but it's always a discussion amongst women isn't it i mean men too but like you know you have darcy who has a long-term partner and cheskay who's very independent but talks about having a partner and cassandra who's you know she's super intelligent but she's also you know i have somebody it's everyone has someone and then queenie did and then she loses him so it's it's like it's ongoing it's in that it's definitely a big

part of the narrative like having settling down at that age yeah yeah and whether to Candice told us on Woman's Era that Queenie was written in response to whiteness um how do you see that in the series well I think there's something to be said about women of color being in certain spaces that they're acknowledging were not necessarily built for them. And there's like a bit of an itch that comes with acknowledging that like, oh, I'm not. There's somewhere that I am right now that like not many people are. And that's it's usually quite obvious. You look around a room and you're the only one that looks like you. But yeah, as I said, like it's resonated heavily within the community and within the culture.

It's for the culture. But there's a lot of people, anyone, loads of people are relating to Queenie's story, women in general. I love how you describe that, an itch. The itch is itching and scratching. So great to have you in our studio. Thank you so much. I think I've got three episodes left so I'm going to enjoy them

even more Diane Brown plays Queenie and if you would like to catch it it is on from 10 o'clock tomorrow evening on Channel 4 Thank you so much for all of you that are getting in touch

84844 I will read some of your messages but I want to turn before that to Spain, where a 20-year-old man has been acquitted of raping a 12-year-old girl because the court said their relationship was, I quote, common as they are both members of the Roma community.

The girl was found to be pregnant by a doctor, which then led to the man's arrest. Under Spanish law, minors under the age of 16 cannot consent to sex and prosecutors asked for a sentence of 11 years for the crime. But the court ruled that their relations formed, and I quote, part of the cultural reality of this community, unquote. This is the latest of a series of rulings in Spain in which customs followed by the Roma population are considered when dealing with sexual assault involving minors. So what does it mean for

the protection of Roma women and girls against violence across Europe? Well, I got to speak to Udit Ignaz. Now, she's advocacy and communications officer for the European Roma Rights Centre, ERRC, an international organisation working to combat discrimination against the Roma population. She's Romani herself, and I began by asking her reaction to this case. As we know, according to the court or the court reasoning, was that the relation was consensual, that there was no significant age difference. And the most outrageous is that, according to the court,

such behaviour is normal within the Romani community because this is part of the Roma culture or the Romani culture. This appears to be one-sided. According to Spain's law, the age of consent is 16. This child was 12 years old, only 12 years old. So legally, she wasn't an adult, and she couldn't give consent. This is what we call statutory rape, period. And let me, you know, clearly state that rape, abuse, sexual violence or any violation of rights was not, are not and will never be a part of Romani cultures. Culture didn't really have relevance in this case because

the court and state institutions are responsible for enforcing laws and protecting Romani girls and women. And as we saw, the Spanish court failed to protect their rights. And what's more concerning is that, you know, the court statements not only normalize rape, but also implies that abusing, assaulting or raping Romani girls and or women has few or no legal consequences at all. And what about the court saying that the relationship was common between a younger girl, this was just a 12 year old girl, I know he was a 20 year old man. And they talked about, and they talked about, and I quote, always consensual within the framework of a romantic relationship. I mean, are relationships involving minors under 16 common in the community? There is no such a thing that a

Roma community. So there are multiple Roma communities, Romani communities all around the world, all around the globe. We're not a homogeneous group. We are a heterogeneous group, you know, like we consist of many communities with different religion, different issues, different circumstances. I think it's a very tricky question. What we see or what we experience that, you know, let's say victim blaming a Romani girl or stigmatizing Romani culture and demonizing Romani communities is not something new because institutions and the media still have this colonized view. So what I think is that instead of focusing or guessing what Romani culture is, it's high time to finally, you know, shift the focus and start protecting the rights of Romani girls and women and Romani people in general, and address the systemic failure of ensuring equal treatment.

What is it like to be a young Romani girl or woman? You've talked about the divide between society at large and the diverse Romani community. Is it difficult to be a young girl? I mean, I think in general it's, you know, being a Romani woman, a brown-skinned Romani woman is not an easy thing in today's world. And, you know, from a human rights perspective, I would say Romani women and girls cannot really feel safe in Europe because, as we could see, the law doesn't protect Romani girls, Romani women. Just concerning reproductive health and rights, Romani women face a lot of negative things like obstetric violence or physical and verbal abuse, racist harassment, unequal discriminatory treatment, segregation in hospital wards.

These things are happening across Europe in the 21st century in countries like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria. There is no expectation, though, for a young girl to get married young within Romani communities. I mean, below the age of 16. As this case shows, yes, there are cases like that. And this was not the first time that it happened in Spain. As I read also in the news, there was another previous case when the Spanish judge used culture as an excuse to deny Roma rights. And do you feel that there's a change at all of understanding within Spain or other countries

within Europe of what Romani girls and women are up against? What I see, like regarding the European Roma Rights Centre, we have many cases and we try to support and protect the human rights of Roma communities all around Europe. But what we still see is like in 2021, a Romani woman, let's say in Slovakia, was refused to get medical treatment in the 25th week of her pregnancy. As a consequence of this refusal, she delivered her baby all alone without medical assistance and her baby died. The European Roma Rights Centre also provided legal support this January to another Romani woman in Serbia

who was a victim of severe obstetric violence. She was subjected to racial violence, willfully negligent care, racial slurs and threats of extreme violence. And it resulted in the death of her baby as well. So Romani women often face, as I said, intersexual discrimination, racism, gender-based and institutional violence and dehumanizing treatment.

And of course we are talking about women, but like in general Romani communities, you know, the European Roma Rights Centre, we have other cases as well, like forced eviction or school segregation of Roma kids, or hate speech, hate crimes, even police brutality, police killing. So these cases and, you know, and much more can be, you know, like they are available in English on the RRC website. That was Udit Ignat. She's Advocacy and Communications Officer at the European Roma Rights Centre. Thanks very much to her. Your messages continue to come in in response to our interview with Claire, who's a Snowdrop donor. Here's one. I lost, this is Holly,

I lost a premature baby who lived for two days and I only heard about donation afterwards so I was able to donate the frozen milk I had produced. I later had premature twins and my daughter died after six weeks I was able to give my excess milk to other premature babies on the unit while waiting for my son to come home

expressing was a comfort somehow I relate to Claire talking about crying and expressing at the same time. Thank you for all your stories that are coming in. I want to turn to a new type of blood test. Now, this can predict the recurrence of breast cancer months or maybe even years before it shows up on scans. And it could potentially pave the way for treatment to start before it becomes incurable.

The test was found to be 100% accurate at predicting which patients would see their cancer come back. It was a team of researchers from the Institute of Cancer Research London that analysed blood samples taken from 78 women with different types of breast cancer and then those findings were presented at the American Society of Clinical Oncology Conference, which was in Chicago over the weekend. I'm joined by Simon Vincent. He's Director of Research, Support and Influencing at Breast Cancer Now, and they part-funded the study.

Welcome, Simon. So tell us more specifically about this blood test. Yes. When women are diagnosed with breast cancer, then in many cases the initial treatment can be very successful but in some cases those cancer cells will will escape from the treatment and remain undetected in the body it's those cells that then reawaken often many years later and form metastatic breast cancer secondary breast cancer as you say that is often detected through clinical symptoms or on a scan.

But what this test is doing is looking at the DNA, which is shed by those rogue cancer cells. That DNA flows around the body and it can be detected. And what this study is doing is pushing the boundaries of the technology to detect this DNA at even lower levels and therefore much earlier before the cancer comes back. So I said they're even potentially years before it comes back? Yes, this study looked at 78 women and where the cancer had come back, the average, the middle range was about 15 months. But some of those women were, it was 41 months between the point at which you could detect the DNA and where it actually relapsed that you could detect the dna and where it

actually relapsed that you could tell from a from a scan or from clinical symptoms and that's crucial as you suggested if you've got that information early and you can start the treatment before you even know that the cancer is there from clinical symptoms then you stand a far better chance of keeping it under control or maybe even stopping it coming back in full at all. And this is very much a laywoman's question but if the cancer isn't there yet but the DNA at the blood test that you've done looking at the DNA has detected that it will come back are you able to decide what sort of what would be the best treatment for that sort of cancer even though it's not there yet? That's exactly what is going to happen next.

So this test is really just testing whether this works. There's two crucial things that need to happen next. First of all, we'll actually put this test into practice in a clinical trial where you use that information and make clinical decisions. This was looking at women after they'd already relapsed and the scientists went back and looked at those samples to see what they could have seen had they checked those earlier. The next stage is to look ahead. But yes, you're absolutely right. As a cancer evolves and as it tries to escape the treatment, it can change and mutate. And so this information actually tells you something about whether the cancer has changed from the first time that you treated it. And so the real aim for this study

is to use that information to decide maybe we need different sorts of treatment. Maybe we might try this woman on a different drug. Maybe we try a new approach if this cancer does come back as metastatic breast cancer. There's a huge amount of information tied up in that DNA, which is flying around the body, not just the fact that the cells are there, but they might have changed and there might be better ways of treating them. So this was a sample. When could women expect to use something like this? Well, as I say, the challenge is to use this technology and use it to make decisions about treatment. I mean, is there a timeline for that, I guess, is what I'm really asking. No, no. Yes. This treatment is a different sort of technology is being used by this same group.

There's a study going on at the moment looking at women who've got estrogen positive breast cancer to do exactly that, to use this information and then make clinical decisions about what's going on. That's still going to be a few years before that reports. And I think to take this technology and to do that sort of trial, it's difficult to say potentially five to ten years before you've got this in full. The technology will need to develop. It'll need to be tested in a much larger group of women. But we're hopeful that this could actually be a new way of keeping track

and actually then treating metastatic breast cancer. Simon Vincent there, Director of Research, Support and Influencing at Breast Cancer Now. And I do want to let you know, next week on the programme, we'll be speaking to the outgoing CEO of Breast Cancer Now, Baroness Deleth Morgan, who retires later this month after 23 years in the position. How much things have changed in that time? I want to go back to your messages that you have sent to us

after hearing from Clare, who's a Snowdrop donor, who donated her breast milk after her son died at 41 weeks. Thank you, Clare. My son was born at 24 weeks and my mind and body were too traumatised to be able to always meet his

milk needs through pumping. We are forever indebted to donors like you for selflessly helping us when we couldn't. I will be back with you tomorrow from 10. We'll be speaking to author Ruth Whippleman about her new book, Boy Mum, following on from our Woman's Hour special phone-in programme about boys last month. I'll talk to you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Do you know Powys? I did a bit of hiking there a few years ago. A village called Bly. It's not on the tourist trail. The Specialist by Matthew Broughton.

The local GP has died unexpectedly. We need someone to fill the gap while we find a replacement. We brought it on ourselves. Us devils love blind. A new Limelight series for Radio 4. Help me, Doctor. Why did he choose me for this? Or they'll be deep down in there.

There's so many. They're still coming. We don't have the resources. Good luck! Mr. Dartington's a demon! Are you scared? Little girl. From the award-winning writer of Treks and Broken Colours.

They were on to him. Mystery meat. Deranged him. Mystery meat. Deranged blood. Bank transfers. An investigation. This is dark. Hello? Get out!

Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out of here! The Specialist. On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.