Woman's Hour - Mhairi Black, Women's boxing, Helen Castor and Rosanna Pike on writing history

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

In May 2015, 20 year-old Mhairi Black was the youngest person for more than a century to become a Member of Parliament – and she then remained a Westminster MP until standing down at the 2024 election. A new BBC documentary follows her last six months in that role and looks at what her future could hold in a new career as a stand-up comedian. Now 30, she joins Anita Rani to reflect on her years in Parliament and what she’d like to see change about the way it functions.The Women’s Prize was founded thirty years ago and this year Woman’s Hour will be talking to longlisted writers along with previous winners. In our first discussion Anita is joined by Helen Castor, longlisted in the non-fiction category for 'The Eagle and the Hart', a psychologically gripping account of King Richard II and King Henry IV, and by Rosanna Pike, longlisted for her novel 'A Little Trickerie', which is set in 1500 and tells the story of an orphaned girl who attempts an audacious hoax.Today at the Royal Albert Hall, Natasha Jonas and Lauren Price will be the first female headliners to box in what will be the venue’s first all-female card. Jonas, an experienced fighter, is taking on Price, a rising star who has never lost a round as a pro. With world titles on the line, British sports journalist and presenter Anna Woolhouse joins us to discuss a huge moment in British women’s boxing, which emphasises the progress of women in the sport.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hi, I'm ecologist Dr. Rae Wingrant, and on Dear Daughter Stars, I'm sharing a letter to my daughter about how to conquer self-doubt and talking about the time I got chased by a bear. Dear Daughter Stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. At just 20 years old, Mari Black became a member of Parliament, a seriously impressive young woman who had an ability to speak very clearly about what she believed in. Only 10 years later and she's left politics and is now about to be on tour with a stand-up show. Mari will be here to tell us what happened. The long list for the Women's Prize is out and we'll be going deep by speaking to some

of the nominated authors over the next four weeks. Today, we're looking at what it takes to write about history from two very different perspectives, fiction and non-fiction. Helen Castor and Rosanna Pike will be joining me. And seconds out, round one. For the first time in history, there's an all-women's boxing match at the Royal Albert Hall. We'll be bringing you up to speed,

and you can get in touch with the program in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website, and you can WhatsApp us on 03700100444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at PBC Woman's Hour. But first, a man has been found guilty of raping his ex-girlfriend in an attack in which he murdered her and her sister with a crossbow and her mother with a knife.

Louise Hanna and Carol Hunt were murdered by Kyle Clifford two weeks after Louise ended her relationship with him. It's been revealed that prosecutors said violent misogyny promoted by social media influencer Andrew Tate fuelled his attacks. He searched for Tate's podcast less than 24 hours before the murders and there have been reports that detectives found evidence that he downloaded at least 10 videos of the social media influencer. However, the defence argued this material had too vague a link and was far too prejudicial to be heard by the jury. As we hear this news, concerns rise again about the influence of people like self-styled

misogynist Andrew Tate and there are calls for his content to be taken down. But when it comes to this type of misogynistic content online, how can we protect our children, especially our boys from its influence? Is it a concern for you? Have you spoken to your children about it? Maybe you're a teacher. Is it something you've had to tackle with your pupils? What can be done to protect young people, boys and girls, from this hate filled content? We'd like to hear from you this morning on your thoughts, opinions and concerns on this topic. Please get in touch with us in the usual way. That text number is 84844.

You can email the programme by going to our website and you can remain anonymous. To discuss this is Michael Comroy. He's the founder of Men at Work, which works with teachers and boys in schools to challenge sexist and misogynistic content online and Laura Bates, who's the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project who campaigns for gender equality. Michael and Laura, morning. Welcome to the program. I'm going to come to you first, Laura. How surprised were you to see that a link was made by prosecutors towards this content? Not terribly surprised. I think the surprising thing is for it to be in the open. We know that

Jake Davison, who carried out the biggest mass shooting that the UK has seen in 10 years, was immersed in incel ideology online, but that wasn't something that was really talked about in the media. In the days before he carried out his massacre, he had searched for Elliot Rogers, who was a killer who was of course very much well known for his extreme misogyny. I think we have to face up to the fact that this content is extremism, we need to describe it as such and we need to recognise that when vulnerable young men are being immersed in this content online, it is a form of radicalisation, a form of grooming just like any other. Until we recognise that and until we speak about killers who

have explicitly acted in the name of these ideologies, which isn't necessarily the case here, but until we describe those men as terrorists, which is the right term for them, we're not going to get to grips with this because we're not taking it seriously. Michael, what sorts of things are these boys seeing online? What are they accessing? What's going on? Gosh, thanks for having me first. The worst things you can imagine, there is no limit. There's no limit. Pornography, unfortunately, is a central script in the lives of boys in terms of how they learn about sex and what men are supposed to be and do,

and therefore what women are supposed to be and do in relation to them. And I think porn is probably a central tenet that underpins lots of forms of extremism, you know, in terms of far-right Islamic fundamentalism or whatever it is. The common thread there between lots of forms of extremism, you know, in terms of far-right Islamic fundamentalism or whatever it is, the common thread there between lots of the men who are involved in those things and commit atrocities, like Laura's alluded to there, is a hatred of women or certainly a sense that men are superior and women are just there to serve us and I think that is loud and clear. It takes garbage online and

long before Tate though unfortunately, I mean I've been doing this work with lads for many years and I had to have Andrew Tate explained to me by my cousins and kids on holiday about three years ago when he came onto my radar but I was already in the thick of this work and I think, you know, it will surprise nobody. Maybe, well, I don't know if that's true actually. I think maybe people see Andrew Tate as an inventor of something. He's not.

I think he's an opportunist who's exploited a lot of kind of lucky coincidence for him in terms of algorithmic development, ubiquity of porn. And I think without porn he'd be nowhere. And I think that has to be part of the conversation. So there'll be people, some people listening to this who are in the thick of it, very concerned about how they're going to raise their boys and their girls, and there'll be teachers

and people who work with young people who are really involved in this, very aware of it. There'll be some parents, and we're going to talk to them directly, it'll all come up about, at a loss as to what to do, and very worried. And there'll be some parents and we're going to talk to them directly, we'll all come up about, at a loss as to what to do, I'm very worried. And there'll be some people who won't have a clue. So what did your cousin's kids say to you? How did they describe him? What's the appeal? Well, oh crikey, well my nephews and my kids, they explained his presence in their algorithmic life, if you like, and how they were aware of it and constantly getting material even if they weren't looking for it. And I think that's an interesting thing that a lot of people perhaps in their 40s, 50s and 60s might not get about algorithms,

is it looked for its customers as well as its customers looking for stuff. So if a boy is curious about X, Y or Z, suddenly the mega industrial complex of porn sees him as a potential, I would say, jupe or victim, but certainly customer. And then that is, he's in the crosshairs of that. I'm not saying there is no accountability, but that's a key message for parents is that there is a very, very cruel and uncaring industry, which is digitized, which doesn't have child safeguarding addicts court at all. It's just about profit. And people like Andrew Tate, they still make money from Spotify by selling their kind of grooming techniques about how to trick and belittle women to boys. Actually, TikTok takes 70% of money from 15-year-old girls in Kenya doing sexualized dancing.

Our platform's a part of the problem. Andrew Tay is just a chancer, a populist type chancer who's milking it for all it's worth but on his own he says nothing new but we do need to talk with our boys and constructively and optimistically but really systematically as well and not just wait for after the event when things have happened because that is the wrong context in which to have dialogues. Why why is he able to get to them though, Michael? What is his appeal, him and people like him? Why are they, because we've talked about Laura was talking about, you know, being terrorism and being groomed and extremism and you're talking about extreme misogyny and pornography. So what is the appeal for young men? I think it will vary per boy. However, I think in general terms, it's not so much the appeal,

it's the work that is done by culture to groom them. And boys are born into a world that they didn't ask for or invent, but which is full of misogynistic shaping. And therefore, it's a real struggle for them to get into manhood without showing some of the impacts of that. But I think porn is a historical new thing that has never... A form of propaganda, essentially, male supremacist propaganda. And I think I boil it down to three things. Porn and pornification, and that includes gaming and the gaming world and all that hinterland and advertising.

I also think money and the worship of money in our culture is a central plank of what on which Andrew Tate stands. He's like a small figure standing on big things in my view. He stands on porn, he stands on a worship of money which is absolutely part of our culture and has been which is absolutely part of our culture and has been for centuries or millennia. And the third thing I think is a key part of the appeal is he appears not to care about accountability or the impact of what he does and I think that appeals to boys and I'm saying boys and young men who are not developed properly, they're not mature, they've not grown up and I'm not trying and young men who are not developed properly. They're not mature. They've not grown up.

And I'm not trying to let him off the hook by infantilizing him. But I'm suggesting that perhaps that appeal to a kind of adolescent desire to get away with stuff and not to have to explain yourself and not to face the repercussions of what you do. I think that's quite a heady mix. But without porn, he'd be nobody. I genuinely believe that. And I think without money and our obsession with money and material wealth,

because his work is very visual, he doesn't write long essays or books or novels. He does very short things that you don't even need to hear it. You can see it. It's physically strong, expensive clothes, money, cigars, cars. We're all groomed to kind of find that appealing and to think that people who have that must be smart or must be doing the right thing. So I'm going to leave it there because I'm sure the room is. Yeah, well, I'm going to bring. No because I'm sure the women are going to want more.

No, no, we're going to get you to talk more but we're going to bring Laura in as well. Laura, what effect is all of this? By the way, 84844, if you're listening to this and you feel that you want to tell us about your own experience, please do get in touch with the programme. So Laura, what effect is all of this having on women and girls? Well, of course, it's a huge impact. And one of the things we rarely talk about is the connection between this real real streamlining of extreme misogyny towards men and boys, the funnelling of it towards teenage boys by algorithms, and the connection that has with the epidemic of violence against girls that we are seeing in our schools. We know that about 70% of young people hear girls being called sluts and slags weekly at school. We know that almost a third of 16 to 18 year old girls

say they experience unwanted sexual touching at school. And we know from a BBC Freedom of Information request that there were on average over a three year period around one rape per day of the school term reported to police from UK schools. So this is huge. huge, you know, this is a should be considered a public health crisis. And we only see the tip of the iceberg. So what we're not hearing about is the girls who are experiencing a daily bombardment of harassment,

of sexism in the classroom, of various different forms of abuse from their male peers who are immersed in this stuff online. And I couldn't agree more with what Michael said. This stuff is finding boys online. Popular narrative at the moment that you will see lots of people spouting, which is that boys are being driven to look for people like Andrew Tate because of feminism. Feminism is making boys feel bad about themselves. And that's nonsense. Boys don't go looking for Andrew Tate. They don't need to. The thing that drives boys to Andrew Tate is not modern feminism. It is algorithms. It is algorithms making millions and millions of dollars by funneling that content directly to them. In on

average, when you set up a TikTok account in the name of a young boy, there's a recent study by the CCDH. On average, it takes 30 minutes before the first piece of extreme misogynistic content is promoted into their view on that TikTok account. They're not going looking for it because they've seen an article in the Times and they're a bit concerned that modern men are being maligned. That's nonsense. It's algorithms. So a piece of the puzzle here is social media regulation.

And both of you go into schools and train teachers and educators. What are you hearing from the people that you're talking to who are on the front line talking to teenagers about it? Laura? One of the missing pieces of the puzzle here is the extent of misogyny and sexual harassment and abuse that female teachers are themselves experiencing in the classroom. 70% of one teaching unions members recently surveyed, 70% of female teachers said that they are experiencing misogyny in the classroom, in the workplace. And it's right that we're calling on schools to do more to tackle this, but they can't do it

on their own. They need training, they need resources, they need support to understand how to tackle this. And too often, teachers teachers aren't given that and then they're expected to magically know how to tackle this, how to deal with it and it's overwhelming and it's really really difficult. We need men in schools to be involved in these conversations. Don't cue Michael, our teacher. Yes but also male senior leaders, the men who are already in boys lives who they look up to right, small coaches. From male senior leadership teams, youth coaches, guys who are already in boys lives have such an important role to play in having these conversations. We can't just leave it to women. We can't just leave it to female teachers who are already themselves bearing the brunt of it.

Michael, what do you say to them? 100%. Well, I totally agree with what Laura just said there. 100% what Laura, I totally agree with what Laura just said there. In fact, I'm very sceptical of a model in which visitors are the only people who will talk to boys about this thing. Because that's a kind of a theatrical set piece and it might be an hour or two hours or a day. And the rules of interaction there are very formal, you know, the boys are unlikely to kind of kick off, let's say kick off. And so it might look like a message has gone in and it might look like things have been

done or a box has been ticked, but I'm absolutely all about sharing confidence and skills with the professionals who boys know because they know them for years. If you're in secondary, I mean I used to be in secondary, you know you'd meet a kid in year seven and you might know them till year 13, that's a long time. So you've got a relationship, you've got a framework into which to drop really constructive dialogues, you know, they're families, they're friends, they're ups and downs. So I'm very sceptical of the visitor coming in tick box, tell off that thing. And but I also know the pressures that schools are under, they can't do it all. They have to wake kids up and give them breakfast to make sure they're not gaining all night. I mean, it's just insane. However,

they do have our children for 30 hours a week, you know, 11 or 12,000 hours over a school grid. It is an opportunity. But like Laura's saying, they're not really given the tools or the training and therefore we've developed this market where pressurised schools buy in from the wild west. And I say, you know, I hands up, I'm part of that, of an unregulated system, they buy it in and they end up paying for crazy stuff like people coming in saying choking is okay as long as you get consent. No, no, no, there's no oversight. So there's a whole world of problems here, you know, where, where peripatetic providers of PSHE, for example, have no legal or scientific oversight and are telling kids the most dangerous and damaging stuff.

However, you know, it's easy to see how it can happen because schools know they want to do something, but they're pressurised, but they're not specialists. And very quickly, because I'm very aware of all the parents listening to this who might be incredibly concerned and thinking this is all very bleak. How would you recommend they approach it? And can we end this conversation about any kind of hope for the future, Laura? Sure, oh sorry.

Oh no, either of you, go on Laura, we'll start with you. I think the vital thing for parents is not to panic. This is a mixed picture. We're not talking about every boy having been groomed into extremism. I'm meeting loads of boys in schools who are standing up to this stuff, who are really radicalised into wanting to help and support. And that's great as well.

You know, they're politicised, I should say, not radicalised. I think the key thing here is little and often, it's not one big terrifying, uncomfortable conversation after your child has already seen loads of this stuff online. Ideally, it's lots of small conversations from a much younger age, enabling them to have the tools to be curious about and to know that they have the right to challenge assumptions about who they are, you know,

that because they're a boy, they shouldn't cry. Well, why not? Daddy cries, let's think about that. You know, why does that advert show that only the moms do the cooking? In our house, it's different. Or, you know, we know this family who do something differently, giving them the opportunity to know that they can challenge things and

source skepticism internet literacy from a very very young age the more that you build up those muscles of having those conversations the easier it becomes and the more later on when your child might come into contact with stuff like this online they will know that they can come to you and they can talk about it it's not about telling boys what to think, it's not about telling them off. You don't want to fall into the trap that has been laid by online influencers like Tate of saying the world hates men and boys they're coming to you, they think we're all evil. Of course, it's really important to talk about the things that boys are facing. And the honest truth is that suicide is the leading killer of men under the age of 50

in this country. And researchers directly link that to gender stereotypes, to the idea that boys don't cry, that men are tough and manly. So fundamentally the things affecting young men are part and parcel of exactly what feminists are fighting against. We need to help them to see that this is a fight that is for all of us to take part in, but that also affects all of us. We can't succumb to the Tate narrative that he is the champion of boys. He says mental health doesn't exist. He's not fighting the things that young men and boys need and are devastating them. He's actually making them worse. So I think just having those conversations as often as possible in a low key way, when you're in the car, you know, those kinds of moments, rather than one big scary thing that feels like an accusation.

Maybe, Mark. Thank you both for speaking to me on this subject this morning, Laura Bates and Michael Conroy. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in our conversation, then please go to the BBC Action Line website for support links. A couple of messages coming in by the

way, the text number is 84844. My husband left me after getting deep into the manosphere on YouTube. We'd been through a traumatic pregnancy and birth with our twins and I think he was lost and searching for a sense of identity and Andrew Tate was there to pick him up. I'm still heartbroken over it but determined to educate our twin boys and hope they don't get caught in the same traps as they mature. Thank you for your messages, keep them coming in. Now in May 2015 at just 20 years old, Mari Black was the youngest person for more than a century to become a member of Parliament. She hadn't quite completed her politics degree at Glasgow University yet. Elected a further two times, she remained an SNP MP for Paisley

and Renfrewshire South until the 2024 election last July when she stood down. Now a BBC documentary Mari Black Being Me Again follows her last six months in that role and amongst other things looks at what the future could hold in a new career as a stand-up comedian. Mari, welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning, how are you? I'm very well, how are you? I'm good. Not been a year yet since you left. How is your new life on the outside of

Parliament? Oh it's much much better, much better. Not just from not having to travel every week up and down to London but yeah being out of that environment has definitely been a good thing. What was that environment? I think it's something that's talked about a lot in the documentary. You know, it's quite a... I feel that Westminster's quite a toxic place and the kind of cultural norms in there I don't think would be tolerated in many

other workplaces or certainly shouldn't be tolerated. So yes it's kind of strange once you step out of that world and you start to reflect on some things you think God that really was bad or that was mad what was happening. So yeah it's all been good. It's a really fascinating documentary and a really great insight into, you know, when you see someone's public face and we literally get to see behind what's going on behind it all. We'll get into it because you talk about your own mental health and your ADHD diagnosis. But before all of that, let's start with how you go from politics to comedy.

Or maybe that's just the obvious connection. Because you've, spoiler alert, maybe that's just the obvious connection. Because you've, spoiler alert, you've already started the new career. You were on stage at the Edinburgh Festival last summer. First performance. How was that? What was more terrifying, your maiden speech in Parliament or you're doing stand-up comedy? No, probably doing the stand-up, I think, is scarier.

Because for a start, the room's's full which makes a big difference. But to be honest if you look at politics over the last ten years it kind of is comical in a lot of ways because if you don't laugh you'll cry at it. So how the show came about was I wanted to be able to talk about my experiences and actually give folk a behind the scenes look at what Wes Winsters really like, but to do it in a light hearted way, you know, the way I would if I was talking to somebody in the pub about it. And like I say, from that it just kind of developed into a kind of comedy. So it's not a political meeting of any sort, you know sort or pontificating.

I think it's quite insightful for folk who don't really have any understanding of politics or even those who do. I think it's quite a good behind the scenes look. You say that the stand-up comedy is more terrifying but your maiden speech in parliament was viewed more than 10 million times. Yeah. That must have felt, I mean how did that feel at the time? I'm still convinced to this day it was just all my aunties hitting rewatch, rewatch. So yeah, I mean it was mad at the time. I remember somebody from the media team coming

through to me to say, you're trending first in Nigeria. And I was like, what are you talking about? So yeah, it was a kind of baptism of fire into the media landscape. What made you want to stand as an SNP MP at such a young age? Well, truthfully, I didn't for a long time. It was because we'd come off the back of the Scottish referendum campaign and of course we'd lost that and after a week or so what struck me was how determined both myself and other yes campaigners were to still deliver some kind of change and the more time went on the more people were telling me you should stand for

parliament and I would say don't be stupid I'm 20 that's a ridiculous idea but the more that folk argued through with me I realized I was losing the argument. What were they saying to you? Why were they saying that? Well they were saying well shouldn't parliament represent all swathes of life you know it should reflect the society it's supposed to the fact that it's mainly made up of straight white middle-aged men is part of the problem and they were saying you know if you'd articulate, if you understand the issues, if you know the arguments then what's your age got to do with it?

But you had something extra though, confidence. Where do you think that confidence came from? I think it's half brass neck in it and half just knowing that I've got things that I want to say. And I always tell people, you know, if you do have that feeling of, listen, I've looked at the arguments here and I think this is the way forward, then go for it, talk about it, you know, don't put yourself down because the worst that you can be is wrong. As long as you're willing to listen to others, then, you it's that's how we all grow and learn. And is that because you come from a quite a political family what was the net what the environment that you grew up in how much of an influence was that? I mean definitely like anybody

your environment as you're growing up is a massive part of who you are and when I look back in hindsight I'm really grateful for particularly my parents and how they raised us you know to be critical thinkers to not be afraid to talk about difficult things you know over the dinner table we would talk about religion and politics all the time and so the idea that these are taboo topics you know that never crossed my mind and because of that I think that there was a real nurturing and Making me understand and be able to argue for the things I believe in. And did you want to be a priest when you were young?

Yeah, actually when I was my granny used to take me to Mass every day and To me like when you're that age and a Catholic, a priest is like a rock star, you know, up there on the stage with a mic. So I just thought that's a really good, you know, I felt quite attracted to the role. And then of course I discovered that women aren't allowed to be priests. Not for you. How disappointed were you? Oh, it broke my wee heart.

Somebody said to me, you could be a nun and I was like no, I want the real deal. You had a rock star moment, it's in the documentary and it's the moment where it's declared on election night that you win. You defeated the former Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander by almost 6,000 votes. Can you remember what that felt like? Yeah, it was, it felt overwhelming. But it was also, I was really proud because I knew how much hard work, you know, other folk campaigners and my family and, you know, different local members had made such a difference and to be able to overturn

that big a majority was definitely no small task. And what did you want to change? What was your driving passion? Honestly I look around me and I see the levels of inequality and general unfairness in life and that's what I want to change you know I think that's how we grow as a society so it was yeah I was just looking forward to getting stuck in. So you've got all the support you're thrown into it you win yeah and then you've got it you're an MP and you're having to come to London and be in Westminster. What were the first few

months like? I mean they were mad you know it's you're an MP and you're having to come to London and be in Westminster. What were the first few months like? I mean they were mad, you know, you're suddenly stepping into this world unto itself. So for the first few months I am quite proud of myself for not jumping in with two feet, I actually sat back and wanted to see the lie of the land and you know what the vibe of the place was. So yeah it was it was just overwhelming. You describe Westminster as brutal, archaic, a private club, a boys club full of middle-class middle-aged men. You can tell I'm a fan. Was it what you expected? Yes yeah I certainly didn't go in with any

illusions that you know it would be an easy experience, but what I did discover was, I suppose almost like the battle lines were much, much more blurred than I would have expected, you know, because you think you're going in there to argue about politics but suddenly you're thrown into this world where there's egos, where there's, you know, ulterior motives for things and suddenly you start to realise, oh I know they're supposed to be a team but they certainly don't feel like one, you know, and there's factions within factions. And then all of a sudden you're understanding politics? It's the politics of politics and that's definitely had a wearing effect. So how do you navigate that when you're only 20?

Like what did that do? Like how did you, did you have support? Like what kind of, did you have family? Who prepared you for that? I mean nobody, I don't think you really can prepare for that. And that's kind of what, part of the reason why we did the documentary is, because I want people to have an understanding. And it's also part of the reason why we did the documentary is because I want

people to have an understanding and it's also part of why I'm doing the show that I'm doing is I need I want people to understand what actually happens day to day within the corridors of power because nobody everybody thinks they have a rough idea of politics but nobody understands the actual mechanisms and like I say the cultures of things. You suffered burnout after a couple of years in Parliament and you were advised to get right away from Westminster. What was happening? I mean anybody who's experienced burnout will know that if you continually ignore how tired you are mentally, eventually your body does it for you

and says, right, no, if you're not going to rest, I'm going to make his rest. So like that, I was getting, you know, stomach aches, I was throwing up, I was having panic attacks, I was all over the place, you know, I just felt all over the shop. Another big theme of the documentary is that you have ADHD but you were diagnosed with it whilst you were in Parliament. What did getting that diagnosis do for you? Oh it changed my life, definitely changed my life because suddenly all of these symptoms that I was feeling had an explanation for them and it was almost confirmation that you're not mad, you know, you're not lazy, you're not all of these things that the world tells you you are. It's just

that your brain's wired differently, so work with it rather than constantly holding yourself to the standards of other folks' brains. So that was a real sort of revolutionary moment where I stopped beating myself up a lot and I didn't realise how much energy I was wasting on doing that. And presumably before that you had no idea so you were just you? Yeah totally. Does it make it easier once you get the diagnosis then? For me it did definitely for all the reasons that I've just said there, it suddenly brought a sense of order to the

chaos that was my head, you know, because that is sometimes that feeling of why is everybody else not as tired as I am, you know, why am I struggling so much with this? And there we had an explanation. We've just been talking about, you know, misogyny and we talk about it a lot on this programme. One of the things you talk about in the doc is the impact of social media and what that did to you. I think you said that you have the record for the most swearing when you were reading out some of the horrendous things that you were called.

We had Jess Phillips on the program just the other week talking about how much, if you're a woman in politics, it's just part and parcel of the job. How did you cope with all of that? I mean, it's, to be honest, because any woman will tell you that, you know, you experience misogyny from a very young age. I mean, even if it's being told you can't be a priest when you're five years old, you know, there's a different set of rules for women. So to an extent, you're kinda, you almost get used to it which is part of the problem. You know, we have to remind ourselves that this isn't normal and the fact that so many people tailor their insults with certain language purely based on the fact that you're a woman

is again part of the problem. So I think what social media has done is it's allowed almost an online record of things which people previously just said in the comfort of their own living room or in the pub or wherever. Now suddenly we're actually seeing the true extent of it and it's alarming. And when you look back at your career in politics, what moment are you most proud of? Oh, I think it's, this is sounding like a cheesy answer but genuinely when I think of the individual people that we were able to help, you know, when we had that moment of being able to give them the good news, that was the best part of the job. It's a shame that it wasn't as often as I'd like, but that's definitely what I'm proud of.

And was it a big decision to step away? I mean it was a big decision in the sense that my life had been going on a certain trajectory and suddenly I'm just veering off the dirt track. But it just felt like the right decision, so it wasn't a really heavy decision that I carried around or anything. It was after the 2019 election. Because initially in 2015 I basically thought, right, I'm signing up for one term, let's see where we are in five years.

And then of course there was two snap elections and Brexit happened and all the rest of it. So when the 2019 election came and I got re-elected I went home that night with my wife and I said that's the last time I'm doing this. So by the time I made public that I wasn't running again it was old news for me you know because I'd made my mind up years earlier so it's it definitely didn't feel heavy it felt like the right thing. And now on to Pasteur's New, Mary Black thank you so much for coming in to speak to me and Mary Black being me again is available on iPlayer now and Mary Black politics isn't for me will tour Scotland from March the 13th to May the 20th including the Glasgow International Comedy Festival

and she'll be at the Soho Theatre in London from the 10th to the 14th of June. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. What life advice would you like to give to your children? I'm Namulanta Combo and that's the question I'm asking in the new series of my podcast Dear Daughter Stars. Among my guests are actor Adjua Ando from the hit Netflix series, Bridgerton. Find what you're built for. What's your unique gifting? Podcaster Audrey Akande from the Receipts podcast.

Don't let anyone dim your shine. Your voice matters. And nature presenter, Rae Wynn Grant. What have wild animals taught me about parenthood? Almost everything. Dear Daughter stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, the Women's Prize was founded 30 years ago toward the best fiction written by women in English. Last year a non-fiction category was introduced and over the next four weeks,

it's very exciting, Woman's Hour will be talking to writers who've been long listed in fiction and non-fiction as well as previous winners. Today is our first discussion and I'm joined by Helen Castor named as the non-fiction category for The Eagle and the Heart, a psychologically gripping account of King Richard II and King Henry IV and by Rosanna Pike. She's made the list for her novel A Little Trickery which is set in 1500 and tells the story of an orphaned girl living as a vagabond on the edges of society. Welcome both of you. Congratulations on being longlisted for the Women's Prize. How does it feel, Helen?

Extraordinary to be in the company I'm in on this list. It's a real honour. And then to see the fiction list, it's just a delight. Same to you. How does it feel, Rosanna? Yeah, it's the same as Helen. I'm just really, really grateful to be on it and I'm in great company. Indeed you are. Right. So you're both nominated in different categories so I'm going to start with you Helen. You're nominated in non-fiction, tell us a bit about King Richard II and King Henry IV and why you chose those two as your subject matters.

Well I'm a medieval historian, that's what I do, it's the period I love and I've always been interested in power in that period because it's so exposed, it's so personal, you don't have these great institutions that we have now sort of getting in the way. But these two in particular are such a fascinating pair, they were first cousins born just three months apart and they were 10 when Richard became king and 32 when Henry deposed him and became king in his place. They're almost too perfect a pair that if this was a novel I would be expecting people to say, come off it, you know, that's too much. But of course Shakespeare got there before me and one of the reasons I wanted to put them standing next to each other in my book is that Richard is the star of his own play in Shakespeare, whereas Henry is his nemesis

in that play and then is a bit of a grey man in the plays that have his name, which are mainly about Prince Hall and Falstaff, or at least they're the ones centre stage. So I wanted to see if I could draw a portrait of these two men in relation to each other. You've written in the past about the history of queens and powerful women. Very different period, this very masculine period. What does your book tell us about masculinity at the time? It's fascinating because it obviously medieval England was an intensely male-dominated world. The assumption in medieval politics was that authority was naturally and rightly male. written about where women do come in around the edges, whether because they've inherited a right

to some sort of position or because they're acting for a husband or a son. As it happens in this part of the late 14th century, there are very few women around on the political stage. And so we get to see really exposed what the qualities are that men are required to bring to politics and the fact that Richard doesn't really have them, including the fact that this is a very military society and Richard doesn't want to fight. Now, we might think that's a good thing, but if it's part of a package where he doesn't really want to engage with any of the responsibilities of kingship. So it's not just that he doesn't want to attack people, he also doesn't want to defend his people, and he doesn't want to uphold the law. He thinks that what he

says should go. So then Henry is a real counterpoint to that because Henry is the perfect knight and very charismatic. That's going to wind you up, especially if it's your cousin. Yes, it doesn't go well. Rosanna, I'm going to bring you in. Tell us about your novel because it's inspired by real life events. Tell us what it was and what was so inspiring. Yeah, so A Little Trickery is based on a true story. It's based on the story of a Tudor con woman who we now know as the Holy Maid of Lempster.

And she did a really bizarre trick in that she pretended to be an angel in a church and she got herself a kind of cult following and quite a lot of money. And there were people coming from across the country to see her. And so I thought when I came across this story, which I did completely by chance, just on Wikipedia, and there was sort of 10 lines or something about this woman. And I just

thought, oh, this has to be, this is a story that has to be written, because I thought, how gutsy and how audacious and she wasn't the only person who was faking a miracle it was it was a problem at the time lots of people were doing it mostly the priests and I just thought well this has to be something that has to be written. Very different to looking at the world through the lens of a king though you know she was a woman she was known as a vagabond she didn didn't have any power. Why did you want to look through her lens in particular? Yeah exactly, it was really appealing to me because I've always loved this period of history but it can be quite sort of saturated with kings and queens so the

idea of writing about someone kind of at the bottom of the food chain really appealed. And as I began to think of questions surrounding this sort of the bare bones of a story as there isn't a load of historical commentary on her, I thought this has to be someone really desperate. So I kind of pushed that idea to the limit and so she is, yeah as you say, a vagabond, she's an orphan. And obviously, she was really disadvantaged in being a woman. So I'm really, really inspired myself by the fact that the initial idea began on Wikipedia for this. So from there, where does the research go? I'm going to start with you, Rizani. I came across the tiny little snippet of her and I thought, I have to know more about this

woman. She sounds so funny. And so I sort of started my research. And there wasn't loads, loads about her, but there were a few things which were really amusing and that I've tried to keep faithful to in the story. So for example, she really did stand up in the Roodloft, which was the little area above the altar, and she used hairs from her own head and she knotted them and she attached one end to the mass, to the bread from the mass, and she would make it fly up into her mouth. And so people

would watch and see the bread kind of mysteriously rising up. So that's in the book. And a few other things like, when she was found, there were lots of meat bones and obviously she needed to go to the loo, but there was no loo. So the church was really smelly. So that's in the book as well. So I've tried to be really faithful to the story in those kind of ways. tried to be really faithful to the story in those kind of ways. But in lots of ways actually it was quite freeing to write because there wasn't loads about her. The story, sort of why she did it and leading up to the hoax is completely my own imagining. But obviously the social history, the sort of everyday things, I wanted to get really, sort of, I wanted that to be really credible and get it correct. And I was, you know, things even like what would she have

eaten, what would she have dressed in, what were rich people doing, what were poor people doing, what would it have been like to go to church, those kinds of things. I was really lucky that I had a few academics work with me on it. And about kind of sexualities in that time, particularly a guy called Dr. Rob Mills at UCL, he was amazing. So I wanted to make sure that that social history element was really spot on. Yeah, you have to nail it, Helen. I mean, you're writing about real people. And Rosanna just mentioned sexuality there. It's a theme that occurs in both of your books. And there is, you discuss Richard II's sexuality and the ambiguity of it, and his relationship with his close friend, Devere. Why were you interested in that theme?

Because it's, everything about a king is relevant when you're looking at medieval politics. Everything public and what we would think of as private, because in a sense the king doesn't really have a private existence, but the problem for us historians in investigating it is that in terms of the sources we have, we can't get behind closed doors. We can see an extraordinary amount of what happens in public. There are amazing archives of the very complex and sophisticated bureaucracy that existed in medieval England, and there are chronicles and there are formal public letters, but getting behind the door of the private chamber is very difficult. And that's one of the fascinating things, listening to Rosanna talk about her process,

because you need to use your imagination when you're writing non-fiction history, as well as fictional history, because the one thing we know for certain is that these were three-dimensional, living, breathing human beings. And if you end up with a portrait that looks like a cardboard cutout in 2D, you know you've gone wrong. But what parameters do you have? Because obviously Rosanna has the freedom

to use her imagination, tell us a story, but slightly different. It's very different for me. For example, and I do want to come back to your question about Richard and Deavere, but for example, and I do want to come back to your question about Richard and Deavere, but for example, I'm acutely aware that I never write dialogue. I never put words in my protagonist's mouths. If occasionally I get a reported something they say, I seize on it as though it's gold dust. So I'm always trying to interpret it the way I describe it is

joining dots, joining scattered dots and trying to make the most coherent picture I can. So given that in the 14th century they didn't have a clear sense of a cultural divide between being gay and being straight. You know, words had different meanings and insinuations. So for example, the word sodomy in a medieval context pretty much usually means any kind of sex that's deemed to be unnatural or immoral. And most of the time that means anything that happens outside the marriage bed that isn't aimed at the procreation of children. So we can't necessarily assume that things map easily onto modern preconceptions. On the other hand, it is clear that Richard II, who had a difficult job fully appreciating

the reality of anyone other than himself, adored Devere and put Devere's interests front and center in a way that he didn't with anyone else. At the same time, my impression is that he didn't really like being touched. He had a sense of himself and his royal person as unique and set apart. So what I've had to try and do in the book is sketch all that in and show rather than tell because I want to leave room for the reader to form an opinion of what might be going on here in the gaps between the dots that I can plot. You go, you know, you do all this research around the subject matter, the king or the queen, whoever it is you are portraying and want to

Tell us about then once that's completed this book is done. Do you move on? Are you like I'm Richard and Henry I've left you there part you on snakes Or are they always there's the other always books that you're picking up and they constant are all are there all the kings and queens Constantly with you well, and and I should say it's not just Excuse me kings and Queens for me. It's one of the reasons I write about Kings and Queens is partly that I'm interested in power and how that plays out,

but also I'm interested in psychology. And what Rosanna's able to do wonderfully, of course, is imagine a fully fledged person in a very different part of society. But I'm trying to portray the individuals that I can see most clearly who are the ones at the top and they stay with me. I've been thinking about Richard and Henry for 30 years and they're not going anywhere. I'm moving on to Elizabeth the first next and she famously said at one point, I am Richard the second, no ye not

that. So I think they're going to be with me a while still. Oh, I love that that's the character you've left us with, Elizabeth the first. And what's next for you, Rosanna? My next book is about a woman called Jane Anger, and she was basically the first woman to write a feminist text in English, and it was a pamphlet, when pamphlets were a bit like Twitter now,

everyone was having pamphlet wars. And there was a man who wrote a pamphlet that was really scathing about women, all the usual stuff back then about us being like whores and temptresses and leading men astray. And this woman, Jane Anger, which was probably a pseudonym, she wrote a reply to this man's pamphlet that was just really pithy, really funny. And so I've imagined she's

replying to her husband, but he doesn't know that she is Jane Anger. So it's sort of a study of their relationship, but also her not being found out. How brilliant and how topical. Thank you so much, both of you, for speaking to me this morning. Women's Prize nominees Helen Castor and Rosanna Pike, best of luck to both of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Now history is in the making at the Royal Albert Hall today.

The first ever female headliners will box in what will be the venue's first all-women event. Fighters Natasha Jonas and Lauren Price will headline this evening, settling a rivalry that's been bubbling this week with public insults traded. With the fights commencing on the lead up to International Women's Day, it's a big moment for British women's boxing. British sports journalist and sky sports presenter Anna Wollhouse is joining us today to give us an insight into what exactly is at stake tonight.

Welcome Anna. Good to see you. You too. So just how significant is this event? Is it important that it's being held at the Royal Albert Hall? It absolutely is important that it's being held at the Royal Albert Hall. We're so excited to be bringing the second full female fight car. We had one a couple of years ago at Sky Sports.

We held that at the O2. That was headlined by Clarissa Shields and Savannah Marshall, but tonight we head to the Royal Albert Hall, it is a full female bill and it is headlined by Natasha Jonas and Lauren Price, they'll battle it out in a well-to-weight unification fight. And the Royal Albert Hall itself has held some incredible fights over the years.

If you think back to 1918 was the first time a fight was held there and then you had the likes of Muhammad Ali fighting there in the 1970s and 90s, Lennox Lewis, Frank Bruno, even our very own Johnny Nelson, Ricky Hatton, who's gonna be in the corner of Chloe Watson this evening or four there. So it's a really, really special

and historic night tonight, looking forward to it. So give us some background on the two women fighting, Natasha Jonas and Lauren Price. So this fight has a bit of a narrative to it that it is experience versus youth. You've got Natasha Jonas that's 40 years old, you have Lauren Price that's 30. Some people are saying it's a bit of the passing of the torch, but Natasha Jones is very much having something to say about that. Lauren Price, Olympic gold medalist at Tokyo, she is unbeaten. Just to put in two contexts as well, this is her ninth professional fight, she's going for a unification fight. She won a first world title in a seventh fight. She's an all-around incredible sportswoman, you know,

kickboxing champion. She's 52 caps for Wales, England versus Wales again tonight, so that adds a bit of extra spice as well. And then you have the Tasha Jonas, who has been, well, a real trailblazer for the sport. She was the first British woman in history to go to the Olympics in 2012 and back in 2022 as well, the first female fighter to win the British boxing border control fighter of the year.

But Tasha Jonas, you know, she is coming towards the latter stages of her career. So it's all about legacy really for her. So yeah, a lot at stake for both. And there's been a bit of tension and confusion in the buildup because Price didn't turn up to the face off. What happened? This is boxing. This happens all the time in fight weeks. It wouldn't be a fight week if there wasn't a bit of controversy, I can tell you. Yeah, that was on Tuesday at the open workout. So in the morning, normally on a fight week, the fighters come together and they have a face off and it's, you know, building the tensions. Tasha Jones turned up to the face off, but Lauren Price didn't. So

Tasha Jones's camp, they felt very disrespected by that. But actually it turns out there was a bit of miscommunication. So Lauren Price didn't know the exact details and that's why she wasn't there. It happens. Women are busy. There's lots happening. It can happen. There were some really interesting boxers lined up as well to fight today. Caroline Dubois, her journey into boxing began by dressing as a boy. Can you tell us more about that and some of the barriers that women have faced in this sport? Yeah, exactly. I mean, Caroline Dubois, you might know the name Dubois from her brother Daniel Dubois, who's very successful. Heavyweight recently knocked out

Anthony Joshua and stopped him end of last year. But Caroline, yeah, when she started boxing, when she was younger, I think she was about nine or so. Women's boxing just didn't really happen then. So for her to get into a boxing gym, she had to dress as a boy. And she called herself Colin. You know, it's quite incredible when you think how far it's come to what we've got tonight. You know, an all-female Bill, the likes of Jane Couch back in 1998, women couldn't even box in the UK. They had to go abroad to do that and she actually took the British Boxing Board of Control to court to overturn that. So, you know, I've been in boxing eight or so years and when I started there was probably maybe one or two fights on a female bill. So it's come a long way. And when you look at the

crowds though for female boxing, who's watching it? Is it still predominantly men? Do you know what? It really is a mix. And I have seen an increase in women coming to watch the fights, but also that filters down to grassroots, even going to the boxing gym. I've even gone back to hitting pads because they don't hit back. I'm safe doing that. I'm not getting hit. But just seeing the level of women that are taking up the sport as well, there's a

definite increase in sort of interest in women taking up boxing. Oh my goodness, yeah, I love boxing, love a bit of kickboxing. Great for fitness. Absolutely. But what do you think about women knocking each other out in the name of International Women's Day? I think it is part of the sport. And in women's boxing at the moment, they're currently two-minute rounds.

And that does allow for a really exciting fight. There's always a debate around, should the women be fighting three-minute rounds? Inherently, women do train in the boxing gym and do three-minute rounds in training. When you talk to them, a lot of them are open to doing three-minute rounds. But with it being two minutes, it really does allow for more explosive fights and less knockouts.

And what's the promotion been like for this fight? Massive. It's been you know there's been a real interest we've had the press conference the way in yesterday at the Dorchester and again just seeing the level of press the level of interest in in the room really is, you know, it's incredible to see. I'm very proud, you know, working in the sport as well. And even our team, we were saying yesterday, there's 55 people working in the team behind the scenes and 24 of those are women.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're riding the journey, aren't you? You're in it. Like as a broadcaster, you're kind of growing, seeing probably as one of the few women in the sport and then actually seeing it expanding just under your own eyes. Yeah, very much so. And we've both talked about our love of hitting pads, but Wales double Olympic taekwondo champion, not that anyone's interested in that, but Wales Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones

announced today, she's switching sports and has taken up boxing. Is this because there's, is it a bigger trend towards more women getting into it? Yeah, and absolutely. It is quite a common thing in boxing in general, whether kickboxing, taekwondo, martial arts, to make that crossover. And I think it is Fight Nights Like Tonight that are sort of the billboard events for enticing people over to them. And you see the attention that they're getting. And honestly, it really, really is a special event tonight. We've got so much and in boxing in general, it's just a great fight card in general. Well, it's going to be quite an evening and I was actually there

last night watching Annie Lennox, which she managed to lift the roof. I bet the same thing will happen tonight. Thank you so much. Just to say it's on Sky Sports Plus main event showcase. If you haven't got Sky, you can purchase it on now as well. It's going to be everywhere. It's going to be really good. Exactly. Anna, thank you so much. Live commentary for the fight, as she said, will begin tonight at 8pm on BBC Sports website and the app as well. That's it from me on Weekend Woman's Hour actor Tuppence Middleton on her memoir about obsessive compulsive disorder. Enjoy your day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

A billionaire Christian family is building a huge collection of artifacts for their Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC. During that time there were 30,000 items probably. But a scholar turned super sleuth starts asking questions. The magnitude of what I found out is incredible. I'm Ben Lewis. I investigate the darker side of the arts and antiquities world, but nothing prepared me for this story. Something truly, truly wrong was going on.

Looters, forgeries, and a scandal of biblical proportions. From BBC Radio 4, Intrigue, Word of God. Listen first on BBC Sounds. What life advice would you like to give to your children? I'm Namulanta Combo, and that's the question I'm asking in the new series of my podcast, Dear Daughter Stars. Among my guests are actor Adjua Ando from the hit Netflix series Bridgerton. Find what you're built for. What's your unique gifting?

Podcaster Audrey Akande from the Receipts podcast. Don't let anyone dim your shine. Your voice matters. And nature presenter, Rae Wynn Grant. What have wild animals taught me about parenthood? Almost everything. Dear Daughters stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.