Woman's Hour - Michaela Coel, Lockdown in paradise, Female HGV drivers, Tribunal win

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

In 2015, Michaela Coel’s Channel 4 series "Chewing Gum", adapted from a one-woman play she wrote while in drama school, about an awkward virgin became an instant hit. She's an established screenwriter, director, producer and actor and now well know for shows like "I May Destroy You," a story based on her own experience. She talks to Emma Barnett about her first book ‘Misfits: A Personal Manifesto’ which is a call for honesty, empathy, inclusion and champions those who don’t fit in.As you’ll have heard reported in the news recently, a shortage of lorry drivers is causing serious supply chain problems, affecting amongst other things supermarkets and even some pubs! Covid-19, tax changes, levels of pay and Brexit have all combined to contribute to an estimated shortfall of around 100,000 qualified HGV drivers. Hayley O'Beirnes is retraining as a HGV driver after her cake business went under. She talks about her experience alongside Karen Stalker, the MD of Stalkers Transport based in Cumbria.Plus we meet Zoe Stephens. She's spent the past 18 months through lockdown 'stuck' in Tonga in the South Pacific. She'd been living and working as a tour guide in Beijing, taking tourists travelling to Tonga in March 2020, just as the world shut down due to Covid-19. She tells Emma about her adventure and what it's like being back home. And we hear from Alice Thompson, an estate agent who's been awarded almost £185,000 after her employer refused to let her leave work early to collect her daughter from nursery. A tribunal judge upheld her claim, awarding money for loss of earnings, pension contributions, injury to feelings and interest.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell PHOTO CREDIT; Natalie Seery.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. My first guest this morning is the screenwriter, director, producer and actor Michaela Cole, the creator of the award-winning BBC TV series I May Destroy You. She has her first book out in which she takes on her own industry, railing against how exploitative the TV world can be. And at one point she was too cash strapped to buy canister for thrush. But fast forward a few years, she was in a better place,

but still turned down a million dollars from Netflix. Imagine that. All that to come as well as much more, including period sex and tomatoes, or rather tomatoes. You'll hear what I mean by that very shortly. But what Michaela has done is take on her industry, her bosses and colleagues. And so has another of my guests this morning, Alice Thompson. In her first interview, I'll be joined by the estate agent who took on her former boss and has just won big at her tribunal after he refused to let her leave at 5pm to pick up her daughter from nursery and her request to go from five days to four. Have you ever taken on your boss for whatever the reason? All your colleagues or those

around you? It doesn't have to be in a court or at a tribunal. Perhaps you just took them on verbally. You tried to make change where you were. was it about what were you trying to achieve did you achieve it perhaps you can't or couldn't but if you could have done what would it have been over what is that one thing you would have liked to have said to the person that you were working with or for but never could we'll hear from Alice shortly but what about you you can text Women's Hour text me here at 84844. You can email me via the Women's Hour website or on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. But I'm sure Alice will have a view on this because the first message we received when we put out the news on social media that we were going to speak to Alice Thompson this morning came from a man called Steve Bishop, who said, don't be surprised if companies are now reluctant to employ women with children after this. What do you make of that? We'll be asking Alice Thompson shortly, but please get your messages in now.

But first, one of the absolute TV hits during lockdown was the BAFTA-winning I May Destroy You on the BBC, created by and starring Michaela Cole, whose audiences may have already known her from the Channel 4 sitcom Chewing Gum that she also created. Now she's written her first book, Misfits, a personal manifesto, which is Michaela's call for honesty, empathy, inclusion, and champions those who don't fit in. The book draws on topics she covered in a lecture that she gave to the TV industry, all the bigwigs in it, in 2018, in which she spoke about dealing with trauma and the ways in which young creatives are exploited and can be exploited by the television industry.

I started by asking Michaela about the resilience born from having no safety net. There's the flip side of that, which is there's nothing there to catch you. And that is absolutely awful. But when you cannot be lazy and lean on whatever comfort your parents have ensured that you have or your grandparents or etc. It means that you have to have drive or you can choose to see your life that way and that's definitely something that I would cling to through my time in drama school and through my early years as a creative. Yeah I mean I think that the really one of the most important parts of what you're writing about is your desire certainly to try and demystify the world that you're in open doors and try and

unlock doors and I think the story that stuck with me and many did from, from your book is the idea that you're there writing another episode of chewing gum. You're writing in Zurich, you get thrush and you can't afford canister or French fries. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the react, there's this sort of difference in you're on television and you're, you're having to ask for somebody and they did give you free chips.

Yeah. I think it's also because when you write, sometimes the cash doesn't flow like other people's jobs. So you don't get weekly or monthly pay. Sometimes you're not paid for six months. And so, yeah, I ended up in Zurich, unable to afford canister when I had thrush and fries and I also remember looking at a tomato and I think the tomato was like what currency did they use there's a euro I don't even remember but it was like two of whatever those things were and I did the math and it was something like three quid for a tomato and I was just like I had to cut that trip um short because I literally just couldn't afford to stay there. Which is just again, though, you know, apart from the fact I'm concerned we've lost you to the Americans because you're now saying tomato.

I'll forgive you, though. Oh, my word. Tomatoes. Save me. Save me. You I will not be lost to America. I'm dragging you back. I'm dragging you back. But there's a stark reality there. And you were saying this to a group of TV executives, because the book comes from a McTaggart lecture. Most people will not know that is a lecture to the great and good of the TV industry. And a lot of the book comes from that. And you were standing there trying, as you put it, to improve the industry and therefore the stories that are being told. How important was it for you to talk about money in that way? You know, really important. And actually, the more creatives that I speak to, it further affirms

my decision to talk about things like that. I still meet writers, young British writers who are living at home in a very tiny bedroom and they're expected to have very huge ideas and they simply aren't quite being paid enough. And so they take on four different writing projects to try and make ends meet, but it's really hard. And I think we often don't consider the financial constraints that creatives are going through whilst we ask them to have all these free-flowing huge confident ideas whilst they live in really tight conditions it's Virginia Wolfe that talks about a room of one's own isn't it And if the room is like a cupboard, it's going to be hard. And you describe a group of, certainly some of these writers, as misfits. You put them together,

you put yourself in that category, you define it on the back of the book as a misfit is one who looks at life differently. Many, however, are made into misfits because life looks at them differently. Beautifully put, we'd expect nothing less. But as you put it, this industry, the world, is cashing in on those misfits. Are you concerned by that at the same time as perhaps not giving them a fair deal sometimes? Absolutely. And I'm also overjoyed that misfits and people from marginalised communities are receiving more opportunities to make work. I'm aware that some time ago, those opportunities didn't exist. But whilst those opportunities are being made available, I am concerned about people being exploited in the process and the longevity of people's success, of people's

security not being looked out for. Well, I think it was at the time, somebody said in a review of the lecture, there were audible gasps in the room. I wonder, just before we get to a little bit more of what you were talking about in that lecture and that you've expanded on in your writing for television, but also in this book, were you feeling confident going into that room to try and tell some home truths? Yeah, I think I was confident and terribly nervous at the same time. I wasn't nervous about whether what I was going to say was right or wrong. I was just nervous because the situation, everything was very heightened. You know, there's a very big stage. There are all these people who are professionals

and I'm supposed to speak to them. That is terrifying, but never was my terror about whether I should say what I'm going to say or not. And in that letter was actually when you said what had happened to you, or you described certainly in part what had happened to you when you were writing, and you went out for a drink with friends, your drink was spiked. And as many people who know, you've seen I May Destroy You, will know that you were attacked, you were sexually abused, and you didn't have much memory from that. But you said it first in this speech. How did it feel saying it? As I say in the speech, I had been vocal about it to my workplace. So it wasn't the first time I had ever said it.

Of course, it's the first time I've ever said it into a microphone. And it felt very freeing to dare to share that information because I know that other people have had similar experiences and I knew that sharing it would allow people to identify with me and that their story was reflected on stage. I knew that would happen and it was freeing. Yeah, it felt empowering. I didn't question whether I should say it. Because of course, what we now know about what you've written, and I know not all of it was based on your story, but so much of it was with what we ended up seeing in that masterpiece on

television, is the idea that you can give voice to people and that you can show something that people perhaps had never really thought was something you could share like that before. But in that speech, you were doing it to try and also show how the industry itself looks after people and how we look after people in workplaces when they go through that. Do you think the TV industry and wider industries, do you think we've got any better at that in the intervening years? I'm not sure. I think there's definitely more discussion about these things, but whether there's progress, I think is a separate matter. I think COVID is a really, I'm wondering how much care there has been for people who have lost loved ones, who have lost really close relatives and perhaps might feel too traumatised

to come into work. The kind of industry we have, there aren't often such things as days off, like we need you on stage is what I think has happened to a lot of people. So I wonder, and I worry that things haven't changed. We're just talking more, but not doing anything. And then the other thing just to say, which has been a great deal in the news, and I'm very aware we're talking on Women's Hour is, I know that you've said that your attackers were never found. I know that you went to the police, you've talked greatly how important therapy was for you and also how freeing it was to talk about your story. But we see in the news that rape prosecutions are at a low. The government's having to take action in that area. And of course, as you talk about,

we've had a pandemic, which has also changed demand on services. How did you feel like you could get closure without your attackers, never mind being charged, but being found? My therapist said to me from the very beginning in my first session with her, which took place two days after I was assaulted, she said, my closure cannot be in relation to the case, to whatever happens with this person. My closure has to be irrelevant of whether they find them or not. So I was told that very early on and I took that on. And that's what I would say to anybody who is listening, that it can't be about that because it's a mess. The judiciary system, when it comes to sexual assault and rape, is a mess. And if our closure hinged on finding the perpetrators of these crimes and prosecuting them, then many of us would be broken for the rest of

our lives. So we have to find a way to find strength and to work our way through trauma irrelevant of that. I think that's very, very good advice, although it's obviously not an ideal situation. It's not an ideal situation. But for me, I'm always thinking about the victim and the survivor. The law is something separate. The law is a mess. And I would love to be a part of whatever movement can help fix that. But what I know how to do is stay with the victim and the survivor. And for me, everything is about their closure and their evolution. I'm sure you will have seen this as well, of course.

But in March, the website Everyone's Invited sparked a kind of Me Too movement in schools in the UK with girls, young women going online and talking about, as they put it, a rape culture in schools and what a lot of people had kind of just thought that they had understood perhaps at school, but had got even worse with the internet and with social media. How did you respond to that? Yeah, I actually remember listening about that on Women's Hour. I think it was brilliant because it raised so much discussion. And what I remember finding very interesting were the people who felt their sons couldn't possibly. How? Not my son. It isn't my son. It isn't my son. And I don't know how we wrestle with that. the fact that the person you raised and your loved one and your dear sweet boy might not be educated about how to engage with women and sometimes with other boys. You know, we might need to stop seeing our children with these rose tinted glasses and instead look at our sons as the future men of society who could cause great harm or great joy to society. And let's try and figure out how to make them joy givers.

Yeah, because you obviously, you want to take those boys with you from a young age, but you're right. You also have to probably see some difficult truths to have those conversations in the first place. Difficult truths are certainly what I like to try and confront. And I'm very happy that you're a listener to Women's Hour. But I think one of the things I want to ask you about, though, is touching on that, is that you've spoken and

you said a phrase, which I adore, around coming offline a bit more now, coming off social media a bit. And you talked about Twitter flattening your brain, I think you said. And I just think a lot of people could relate to that, although they can't get off it, you know, whether it's Twitter, whether it's Instagram, now TikTok. Do you think we need to change our relationship with those sites and especially younger people? What would you say about that with your own experiences? Yeah, you know, I don't know much about how the technology is made and how the algorithms are designed. I am hopeful that there is some ethical version of how we design social media, because if there isn't, then yeah, I'm concerned because, you know, suicide in very young people is on the rise, anxiety, lack of self-worth, social comparison. And I know that these things were always there,

but social media kind of ramps everything up and, you know, multiplies it by a thousand. I don't know. I'm not there really anymore. I have little secret accounts just with my name. You know, I have a Twitter. I barely use it. Maybe it's useful to keep taking breaks from social media and Instagram. And I know a lot of people say, well, now my business is on Instagram and that's how I make money. And I just think to myself, well, you know, when it used to be like you had a shop, at some point you closed the shop and you go home, then you go back and you open the shop. So maybe there just needs to be some hours, you know, after 6pm, just close the shop. So maybe there just needs to be some hours, you know, after 6pm, just close the shop. But I think people struggle. And I think if you struggle

to not look at your phone for a month after 6pm, then it means you've got a problem. If you cannot help but go into Instagram, when you've told yourself, I'm not going to check Instagram, then it genuinely means you've got a problem. I remember when I, when I used to practice coming off of social media, I would delete the app and then I would be on my phone and my thumb would be swiping across the screen. And I'd realized that my thumb was looking for the app that I had deleted. So I was so involved with it that it was in my muscle memory. And that's when I thought, okay, you know what? It means that it's directing my body when my brain does not want it to go in the direction that social media is telling it to go in. And so I think it's good to have mastery over that. That doesn't mean give it up or delete it forever, which for me was very freeing.

And I'm very thankful for that but I think it just means have boundaries with social media well also going back to what we were saying at the beginning if you've got to protect your you know whether it's yourself as a writer or you know keep your freedom of thought it's it's very important to to have those breaks from it because a lot of people let it destroy them when they read just one bad comment or one bad thing. And, you know, you talk about strength in boys and in girls. You're not going to have it if you let yourself get destroyed on there. Correct. And not just freedom of thought.

Like I remember a couple of weeks after I permanently deactivated Instagram and I was walking down West End somewhere and I saw a little cafe where you can eat and have a coffee outside. And I remember thinking I would never have done this a few weeks ago. I don't know why, why I felt anxious about sitting by myself outside and having a coffee, but suddenly I felt like I could do that. And I sat down outside and I had a coffee. But suddenly I felt like I could do that. And I sat down outside and I had a coffee and I looked at the world around me and I watched people as they passed. And I wouldn't have had that experience if I was always looking in my phone and saying hello to the wonderful people of Instagram. And there's just something about the tangible reality and occasionally engaging

with what's in front of you that I, for one, really lost when I was deep in the circus of Instagram, which is a very fun circus. You know, the other side of this is that the other things that you say in the book about changing your mind, and somebody wrote to you who was auditioning, I believe, about a Malaysian female role that you'd created saying it was a bit perhaps two-dimensional, one-dimensional, not quite as it should be. And then you realised they were right. And I think social media is part of the ingredient of modern day life, which means you don't feel you can back down ever. We get into these statuses and we can't be forgiven for changing our mind or having a new view.

Yeah. And I think it's partly because whatever that person, that tweeter is trying to say, it's very hard for the complexity of your thoughts and your opinion to land well on Twitter. So it flattens everything. And so I think whatever you disagree with, probably the person, if you were standing with them face to face, might be able to explain themselves and their perspective of life in a way that doesn't turn your blood boiling hot. But because we're engaging on this flattened platform, it's making us hard to understand each other. That's what I think anyway, because I meet people in real life who have very different opinions to the ones that I possess because they have a very different perspective, because they've come from a very different place.

They've seen life in a completely different way than the way I've seen it. And it seems much easier to tolerate, accept, and maybe even be inquisitive about somebody else's opinion when they're talking with you face to face. I've got to ask you this as well, because there is a trope about difficult women, right? When a woman in particular says something or starts questioning something, it's often received in a very different way to a man. There's that kind of dominance penalty, it's called, versus, you know, a guy says something and it's received so differently to when a woman says something in the workplace. And I have to bring up the fact that you

did turn down a million dollars, correct me if I'm wrong, from Netflix, I believe, for I May Destroy You, you know, because you weren't allowed, as I understand, to own any of the copyright and you would just kept asking questions and it didn't seem right to you. How did you feel or how were you made to feel about yourself during that? And do you think you were judged differently or at times harsher because you were a woman? I must say, I don't remember feeling like people found me difficult. I remember feeling like people found me disturbed. So it was almost like she's a crazy woman. You know, that's the other one, isn't it? She's either difficult or she's crazy to the point where I began to think I was crazy or unnecessarily paranoid. And I think at that stage, it's hard

to really say to people, trust your gut and follow your instincts because it's not a very useful sentence all the time. But that is what I did in that situation. And I'm very glad I did because in the end, I wasn't a crazy woman that was acting wild and disturbed and unhinged, I was right to observe the industry and observe that there was a lack of transparency because there was an exploitation occurring. And if I didn't press on, despite being seen as crazy and paranoid and unhinged, I wouldn't have got to that truth. And I wouldn't have ended up saying no to being exploited. I would not have then had the space to say yes to employers who were not exploiting me, who were willing to collaborate with me and listen to me and treat me as an equal. I had to say no to the former to make space for

the latter. But still, I mean, saying no to a million bucks, that's a cool situation. Yeah, it's a cool situation. And I think it's even cooler if you realise that you don't need a million dollars. I was living at that time, I was in a house share with lovely Ash, that's my housemate, and I had enough food to eat. I did not need a million dollars, which means I can make the decision whether I take that or not. What is behind that million dollars? That, you know, when you can say no to a million dollars because you realise you do have enough, even though it's not lots, then that's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping by that point you could afford the canister. By then I could definitely afford the canister and I could afford my bills. Sometimes my housemate has to bail me out every now and again, because the cash flow can be very slow when you work in telly. I do have to ask about the decision, not only to broach

period sex in your wonderful masterpiece, but the fact that there was a clot, a blood clot on the bed. You have got a great sense of humour and you use that. And I think, you know, enough people will know that if they've read and watched your work, but I think we just need to hear why there had to be a clot on the bed during the period of sex scene. Why did there have to be a clot? Because sometimes there is a clot and do you know what I mean? Sometimes there is a clot. And if I can show that, why would I then resist showing that? Oh, because it might make people feel weird. But it can happen.

That's what can happen to so many of us. It was just when he picked up the clot. I know. But you know what? I know loads of men, and maybe that is giving away more information than I would like. But I know loads of men and maybe that is giving away more information than I would like. But I know loads of men who would have no problem, who would take joy in picking up that cloth and playing with it. I have actually researched period sex. This is why I know this. I never knew it was such a big thing. I never knew a lot of the discussions around it.

But I will share this with you all, that the name for men who love period sex was coined by a brilliant writer in New York and she called the bloodhounds so there you go Emma I feel like I'm not talking about guys who have a fetish no no no no no not the fetish guys just the guys who are like woman all that you are I'm okay with that I I was just wanting you to know that name in case you need yeah I know that name but it was not a homage to the bloodhounds but respect to them respect to them respect to the bloodhounds just wanted to ask about what's your optimism level like at the moment about modern feminism I can see why maybe people see it as backwards but at the same time I'm thinking of conversations that I've had with very young people and realizing how switched on, intelligent, way ahead of me some of these very young women are. And yes, some of them really do

have a full face of contour, but also have thoughts that are so complex, thoughts that I never had at 13, 12 years old. So it's nuanced. It's like on one hand, we may look at the new generation and feel a sense of terror and dread because we didn't look like that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm sure that the generation above me

looked at me and said the same thing. And perhaps every generation looks to the next one and gasps in horror and says, oh God, everything's ruined. You've broken the great cause. But I think we just maybe don't understand it. If anyone wants to be part of your Misfit crew, what do they have to do? How do they define themselves? I don't think it's a crew that you join. I think you have a look at the world around you and realise that you're probably already in. Michaela Cole. Oh, what a large amount of ground we covered there. Many reactions coming in, not least to that latter part of the conversation, but also to what we were talking

about earlier. And Faye's got in touch to say Michaela Cole is simply extraordinary. Her first book is out now. It's called Misfits, A Personal Manifesto. I'll come back to some of your messages on that shortly. But what we started talking about right at the beginning of that was taking on the people around you who you work with, your employers, your colleagues. That's what she did in that lecture, which led to that book. And an estate agent has done the same.

She's been awarded almost £185,000 after her employer refused to let her leave work early to collect her daughter from nursery. Alice Thompson wanted to work four days a week and leave the office at five rather than an hour later as the agency normally required because of her childcare arrangements. Many of you will be familiar with this. In fact, many of you have already been in touch. Her flexible working request was rejected with the business saying they couldn't afford for her to work part-time. Yesterday the tribunal judge accepted that this put her at a disadvantage and upheld her claim awarding money for loss of earnings, pension contributions, injury to feelings and interest. Alice Thompson joins me now. Good morning.

Good morning. What's your reaction first of, to the judge's ruling? It's been a long, exhausting journey and it was great to have some closure. I was happy with the amount awarded. I felt like it had been a long process that was very draining emotionally, financially, and it was great to have a positive outcome from it for me. And you had been on this as you say it's been a draining journey it had taken how long to get to this point? I went on maternity leave in October 2018 and I was due to return in October 19 to work so it was from the end of 2019 to yesterday when the tribunal judgment came through. So it felt slightly delayed because of COVID, but the whole process was incredibly long-winded and convoluted. Did you expect to win?

My solicitor at the time had sort of said she thought it might be a 50-50 so you go into this with a strong belief that you're standing up for what you believe is right trying to make a positive change in the world and for me I've got a daughter and I just didn't want her to experience the same treatment in you know 20-30 years time when she's in the workplace so for me I felt like it was something I had to pursue but I didn't expect it to take this long. Why did you pursue it and we'll deal with in the moment the fact that you could pursue it because of course you were in a situation and you take a big financial risk when you do this when I understand you could afford legal fees and and a lot of people can't do that. But just putting that to one side, psychologically, you make a decision whether

to fight something or not in your workplace. And we've already had people get in touch this morning saying, you know, they fully support you because they've been in this situation, but they weren't able to do anything about it. Why did you decide to fight? I firstly felt like you have to stand up for what you believe in in life and we have to we have to try and make positive changes where we can but I also felt incredibly frustrated that I'd put my heart and soul into an estate agency career for more than a decade in London which is no mean feat as it's quite male dominated environment to work in. And I'd worked really hard to build relationships with clients at the particular estate agents I

worked for at the time. I'd grown their business really substantially in the couple of years that I was there before I went on to maternity leave. So I felt incredibly frustrated to have a child and then be dismissed because I didn't fit into the business model anymore and that's what drove me um I must admit there were times where it felt draining and I thought of quitting but I'd invested so much time and energy into the process and I had fantastic support around me. My husband was really supportive, as well as some ladies from my NCT group in Brixton who had gone through the process with me at the time and had understood my emotions and how hard it had been. And these people around you who can support you help you continue with the process when sometimes otherwise you might feel like giving up but that's what drove me I

felt frustrated I thought how are mums meant to have careers and families it's 2021 it's not 1971 and it feels to me that to the world it it looks, you know, we've got laws in our right. However, it's a very emotional process once you've had a child to actually, you've got a new identity as a mum. You're trying to figure things out on that field. And then you're going back to work as well and if you don't have the support of your workplace to go back I feel like the a lot of employers are going to be missing out on some fantastic women who have been really successful going back to work just because they're short-sighted and don't want to be flexible at all. Did you go back to work at all? I have gone back to work. I'm doing a self-employed business model now, which offered flexibility. Sorry, I'm afraid I said that wrong. I meant,

did you go back ever to that original role or when the request to work till 5pm and four days a week was refused, you didn't go back? I didn't go back. I resigned in December 2019 because it was just impossible to work with. I made a request for flexible working that wasn't seriously considered. I proposed what would work for me. If that didn't work for the company, I would have been more than happy to hear a counter offer, what might work for them if they needed me for the full hours, maybe eight till five instead of nine till six. And that's something I could have worked around. But it was shut down every avenue and not listened to, not considered. And I was left with no other option but to resign because I couldn't make it work. And as you say, you had delivered serious value to this business and boosted its sales enormously. And in a way, not that this is at all okay in terms of your situation, but that was testament to your work, excuse me, that they wanted you back full time to be doing that job. But of course, you took them on and in this situation, it's interesting, I say you won. It is a big victory in all sorts of ways. Although one of our listeners has said, don't say it's a win. You know, she's getting what she was owed and what she was deserving of. I just wonder how much was involved in the end in terms of how much it cost you.

Financially. Financially. Yeah. It was I engaged lawyers at the end of 2019 and I was surprised the process, it was, I engaged lawyers at the end of 2019. And I was surprised the process, you know, continued until now, September 2021. So I've paid for lawyers in that time. And I've also paid to go to tribunal, I hired a barrister who was fantastic and super supportive. And I don't think I could have done it without the support from the solicitor and the barrister along the way because they're legal savvy they know how to word things it's such an emotional drain as it is to then be in a battle with some people who understand that playing field was really valuable to me however it did come at a huge financial cost thousands of pounds and obviously there's the risk that you

might not get that money back if you lose but there's a greater picture to trying to make some small change in the world for the better and I'm incredibly surprised at how many women have reached out since the media coverage yesterday some who I know and some who I don't know and they've been so supportive about this journey and have shared their experiences saying they suffered similar treatment but they either didn't have the mental capacity at the time to deal with it or the financial ability to pursue it some were settled before they got to tribunal. I think only 1% of these cases actually get to tribunal. So there are so many voices that are not heard. And that has really surprised me because I thought, this is outrageous. How can this

happen in 2021? I must, you know, stand up for for my beliefs but it actually is a lot more common I believe than perhaps we realize yes and this is definitely why we wanted to talk to you because lots of things do get settled before or never go to court and and women can't do it do you know how much it's cost you in total I'm asking because I think it's really important for people to know that sort of information how much you, justice in inverted commas costs? I'm into the tens of thousands, but I haven't totted it up up to date as of yesterday. It's been a journey that I've gone on over the last couple of years. So I'm not sure the exact total, but it's definitely run into tens of thousands. Probably not something you want to even know, but I think it's important to show the scale of how much it can cost, not just emotionally, but also financially.

I did read out a message. I don't know if you were listening right at the beginning. We got a message straight away saying, don't be surprised if people, employers, especially perhaps of small businesses, don't now want to employ women who are of a certain age. And in fact, that was an alleged point that your former boss was reported as saying he had been warned about employing a married woman. He denied this, I should say. And I have to say, we've got another message

from a woman here called Kate. She says, your listener commented that employers would be reluctant to employ women in the future. I am female and I agree with him. If I was an employer, I would think twice about it. Some women forget that their employers are trying to run a successful business. I've worked with women who have children who want first choice of holiday dates, school holidays, have days off at the drop of a hat, child sick, change their working hours, not conducive to

a smooth running business and not fair on other employees either. So we have had that in from a man and a woman. Alice, what do you make of that? I think that the system in the workplace needs to change. I do believe there should be more flexible rights for people in the workplace. So not just new mums, but dads as well. I'm speaking specifically here about parents, but as the COVID pandemic has taught us we're in 2021 we've got technology we have zoom laptops mobile phones you don't have to be in a physical location to effectively do your work and that you know counts for a lot of industries certainly a state agency you need to of course be physically present to show properties however you can do a lot on email and by phone and so I think it's quite short-sighted of employers to talk about

employing women of a certain age who are married who might go off and have children I think what they're failing to understand is that these women many of them are really educated, have had successful careers, and their business will be at a detriment without them. It's a shame that they can see the world like that. I think that it's a bit of an outdated view. Yes, and people will be nodding, and they are in agreement with you on that. But I suppose the law of unintended consequences sometimes can be this, that your case, while it will have given hope hope and perhaps it will force change of behaviour, could also mean that some people go back to being, if they hadn't already left that viewpoint, wary of hiring women of a certain age.

I suppose I'm asking, you know, I know what you want the reality to be, but what the reality might be now. Do you ever worry about that or did you ever worry about that if you won? I think it's crossed my mind it's definitely crossed my mind that you know some more negative pessimistic viewpoints might be you know oh I've been proved right don't hire a woman of that age but I don't think those companies will last I think that they're short-sighted. They will, you know, not necessarily have a place for growth in the future. And I think the companies that do adopt flexible working rights and perhaps a little bit more modern with their approach, a little bit more flexible with all of their employees, mums, dads and other people who have got responsibilities out of work,

not just children, but, you know, encourage people to study and better their learning, things like that. I think that they'll have employees who are more dedicated, who will work harder, who will stay at the company longer, who ultimately cost the company less in rehiring retraining yes and if you work like estate agents do with clients clients like having um people to come back a point of contact and that connection well alice i'm very grateful for you talking to us today after i'm sure what was a roller coaster of emotions yesterday and continues to do so and explaining your case and and why you fought it. A lot of messages are coming in off the back.

Alice Thompson there, fresh off that tribunal with that payout from the boss that wouldn't let her work four days or go to leave at five o'clock to pick up her daughter from nursery. Many messages from people saying, listen, you do need to make the point here and I will do it, that you can join a union, a trade union at work. They can advise as well and bear any costs of taking a case to tribunal. Yvonne's written that in as well as other people. And other messages here talking about what year really are we in.

For instance, Vicky on email says, when I fell pregnant, my boss began advertising for what he called my replacement. I made clear repeatedly I was coming back and he would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll find something for you to do. I returned to work just a month before the pandemic hit and he told me I needed to start looking for another job, furloughed me at the earliest opportunity and it was clear I wasn't welcome back.

The whole experience was so stressful and upsetting. I didn't have the emotional strength to take action against him. 18 months on, I wish there was no time limit on taking action as I would give anything to make him accountable now. Thank you for giving women like me a voice. Vicky, thank you for that message and good morning. I'll come to more of your messages shortly. I should also say that we requested a statement from the estate agent involved, but have yet to hear back from them, but I'll update you if we do. But talking of jobs,

there's an acute shortage of lorry drivers at present, causing serious supply chain problems at supermarkets, restaurants, fast food outlets, and most recently, pubs. COVID-19, tax changes, levels of pay and Brexit have all played a part to contribute to an estimated shortfall of around 100,000 qualified HGV drivers. On the upside for the profession, the shortage is driving up wages and conditions and is increasingly being seen as an appealing option for younger people and more women. Hayley O'Byrne is retraining as an HGV driver after her cake business went under. She's a mother of three, but only one woman driver. Hayley, first of all, tell us how it's going now.

I know you had a bit of difficulty with the training, but we want to hear how it is now. Yeah, it's just the huge delays, you know, with the DVSA and everything not giving out dates. And what should have taken five months is now taking so far far eight months and that's just to get to class two i mean when i want to do class one afterwards you know you're talking another few months waiting so then it would have gone over a year then and you know with the shortage of drivers you think that they'd have more examiners on i know the dbsa are saying they're going to employ 40 new examiners but it's not enough they need to invest more money in training centres and things. But it's like, you know, there are literally thousands of people trying to get into the industry.

But the backlogs and the delays is, you know, is what's causing the shortfall. I know Karen will have something to say about that in just a moment. Hayley, what I'd love to learn is why doing this now after running your cake business what is it that appeals well i've always been a petrol head i've always been into trucks um i've come my family are all truck drivers while my uncles are and uh ever since i was little i was mesmerized by the stories i used to come back and say this is like 30 odd years ago and then back there you know my uncle larry used to say like don't do this it's not a woman's job don't you dare so I never did and I just progressed doing other things in business and

that and then like when the cake business went under I thought you know what because I do a lot of motorway driving anyway I've been driving vans on and off for 18 years and it's kind of I want to drive something bigger now um it's time to go bigger go big or go home so I was like I'm going to go for a job this time. That is one of my passions, which is driving. I'm just a piece behind the wheel for some reason. I think it's fascinating to hear why. But also, I know that, you know, the industry wants more women.

So it's good to hear why you're doing it. Are you concerned by any of the potential, not the training hurdles, but anything about the life? Yeah, I mean, I know the hours can be long, you know, some 15-hour days and things like that. And it just means I'm sacrificing time away from the kids because I've always worked from home and things. I've always been around.

But I kind of just want to be me now. I want to be Hayley. I don't just want to be mum. But, you know, we haven't been on holiday in 10 years or anything and it's because I've been so skint. But, you know, this mum. But, you know, we haven't been on holiday in 10 years or anything and it's because I've been so skint. But, you know, this time I thought, you know, you can earn a good wage if you put the hours in. And I just want to give us a better life, really.

It's a big driver of this, excuse the pun, because it should be better slightly now with the money that I've just been outlining with the demand and all of this. Karen, what do you see from this perspective about getting more women into this? Is that a major issue, the time away from home or is it the style of life? I think obviously anybody who's the main care provider in a family has got to consider the hours that they work and the shifts that they work. But, you know, the industry as a whole at the moment

is so desperate for people to join it. There's all kinds of different types of work and shift patterns available. So I wouldn't necessarily just dismiss it because of the long hours. You know, there's different companies now are looking at different ways and different shifts. You know, some companies are offering four-on, four-off. You know, agency drivers, it's impossible to get an agency driver

to cover for holidays and sickness at the moment. So, you know, for a newly qualified driver to be able to sign up for an agency for a short period of time to get some experience under their belt, they can effectively dictate to the agency what hours they want to work and the agency will supply work that suits the circumstances. So it's definitely not something that I would, you know, you can't dismiss it. The hours certainly, you know, you can't dismiss it. The hours, certainly, you know. And what about, I remember when we, I had a discussion about this

when it was first coming to light about this issue and more women being called forward if they would consider it. And we had a couple of messages talking about the culture of the sort of male culture on that. And I wondered what you made of that, Karen. But also a couple of messages talking about, you know, do women have the strength to do it? What do you made of that Karen but also a couple of messages talking about you know do women have the strength to do it what do you make of that Karen? Of course they do the

strength's got nothing to do with it at all um you know if if you have the the right equipment anything anything's possible you know we've we've had a driver previously that just had one arm and he managed as long as you you know the the facilities can be adapted to um provide them with the equipment that's necessary strength doesn't play a bit doesn't need to play a part in it at all i didn't understand it which is why i asked so thank you for clarifying always good to ask when you don't understand and what about that culture you know where you when you're living on the road and you're living in your cab and you've got to obviously go and you know perhaps get food showered all that sort of stuff.

What do you make of that for women, Karen? And then I'll come back to Hayley. Well, the trucks that are on the road now and the trucks that we operate, certainly, they're all fitted with double bunk beds and fridges and microwaves, lots and lots of technology in there. So they're fairly safe and self-sufficient places to work from. Yes, there is a nationwide shortage of decent overnight parking facilities

compared to the facilities that are available on the continent. In this country, it is pretty grim. And I think a lot of people seem to think it's the responsibility of the employer, where really it isn't. You know, we have no say in the facilities that are available. We as a company take a policy, a view to not allow anybody to overnight park in lay-bys, for example, because I really don't think that that's safe from a personal perspective. I don't know how they can sleep properly. And, you know, the load could be damaged,

the curtains could be slashed, the fuel could be stolen. So we insist that all of our drivers do park wherever possible in safe and secure truck stops or motorway services. But unfortunately, these are becoming fewer and further between. And, you know, the facilities that they do offer, unfortunately, sometimes are pretty grim, I have to say. Pretty grim, Hayley. Selling it to you there. Apart from hopefully the financial upside and the chance to get a new skill, what do you make of that?

Well, you know, as I said, I've got loads of friends and family I'm talking to. So I know full well what I'm getting into. But for me, I can't do tramp tramping I can't do overnight stays really because you know I've got the kids and I still need to be a parent I still need to be a mum I've got two children with disabilities that I still need to be about so you know as Karen said I'm going to have to do agency work for a bit and dictate the hours that I can work it's the only way around it for me as a single parent at the moment but eventually when the kids are a bit older then you know yeah I'd be quite happy to do tramping.

So, yeah, I like being on the road anyway. And in terms of what you think the government could do, Karen, just a final word from you. Do you think the government is doing enough in helping getting more drivers in the pipeline? Absolutely not. The government's response to this was to extend the hours that drivers can legally drive at the moment, which is just a ridiculous viewpoint as far as I'm concerned. It's not safe. They work long enough hours as it is. The government need to help with license acquisition. Like Hayley said earlier, we need to get more people through the tests in a much quicker and speedier fashion. It would also help if the government could help fund license acquisition

at the moment you're talking in the region of three thousand pounds to obtain a class one license um you know if they cut out the middle bit like Hayley said she had to take a class c test first before she can progress to class c and e that never used to be the case people can successfully you know pass the c c plus e license and um go on to to having a um providing that you know, pass the C plus E licence and go on to having a providing that, you know, the training and supports there for them to start off. Yeah, so it's all very well saying there's a shortage, but these are some of the follow throughs. Well, I would very much like to put that on behalf of you and the industry to a government minister. Let's see if we can make that happen. Perhaps we'll get you back on at

the same time. Karen Stalker, Managing Director of Stalkers Transport based in Cumbria. Hayley O'Byrne, good luck to you. Do come back and let us know how you get on. All the best to you, Hayley. Off to change career and get on the road as she so enjoys. Well, just talking about career and where people are and where people have been. Many people have been dreaming, I'm sure, over the last 18 months of perhaps being cast away on an idyllic island. But for 27-year-old Zoe Stephens, that has been a reality. She spent the past 18 months through lockdown quite stuck in Tonga in the South Pacific. She's previously been living and working as a tour guide in Beijing, taking tourists, mainly Westerners, to North Korea.

And she travelled to Tonga in March 2020, just as the world was to shut down due to COVID-19. And Zoe, I believe you've just returned to the UK. How's that, returning? I have indeed, yeah. It's very strange, actually. I got back here almost, I left Tonga almost a week ago now and it took about three days of travel. And then I got back here on Friday last week. And it is bizarre. It's kind of like waking up from a dream or just going into a dream. It looks like a dream, though, where you were, you know, these blue skies. You've become this kind of poster woman for lock the best lockdown was it uh I mean it does look amazing and it does look gorgeous and

it is it is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in the world um whether it was an amazing lockdown experience of course um it was very different to the experience that most people have. But I think there were lots and lots of ups and downs. And being on an island in the middle of the South Pacific Ocean that doesn't even have any COVID. It's actually one of the few countries in the world that still doesn't have any COVID. It never has. So that was definitely a privilege. But it certainly wasn't all just amazing times on the beach reading my book and doing nothing.

Well, no, you seem to be very busy. You started a marathon. You were doing a master's degree, raising money for an animal charity. I mean, I would have, I say this, I know I wasn't there, I wasn't doing it, I wasn't away from my family. I might just be tempted to sort of lie like a starfish on the ground. Yeah, to be honest, I wish I really wish that I was the kind of person that can just chill out, do nothing, be on the beach and enjoy the swimming and the sea and get an amazing tan. I definitely did that. But it took up. Yeah, not much of my time, actually, because unfortunately, I am not the kind of person that just likes to sit down and do nothing. And so after about two or three weeks, we had a three week lockdown at first, actually.

And after the three weeks of lockdown, I needed to to get back into, you know, doing stuff. You can definitely have too much of a good thing. And there is too there is such thing as too much sunbathing and too much um chilling out on the beach to try i'd really like to try you don't know how much i'd like to the ambition i have to try that although there was one detail i read in one of the interviews that you gave because so many people have turned to your story because it does sound idyllic after the last 18 months. You left your glasses behind. And I mean, I can't see without mine. But tell us about that.

Some of the basics, because you didn't expect to be there for that long. No, in fact, I never expected to be there ever. If someone had told me, yeah, you would go to Tonga in 2020, I'd be like, oh, okay, what? You know, so the glasses thing, basically what happened was, is I left Beijing in the middle of January or just at the start of January last year. And I left for a two-week language course in South Korea. So I basically had a big suitcase full of winter clothing, because it's about minus 10, minus 20 degrees at that time. And that was also the time that coronavirus was just kind of becoming a thing. After I left Beijing in those first couple of weeks in South Korea, that's when

the pandemic kind of, well, that's when the situation in China started. And so anyway, I just remember packing my suitcase and I was just packing my things for a two-week trip and I looked at my glasses and I remember thinking to myself I won't need those because the language course I'm doing it's just one to one-on-one and I won't be looking far away onto the board which is what I use my glasses for so a lot um to read things far away um driving stuff like that I should definitely wear them for. And I specifically remember thinking, I'm not going to bother taking them. I wouldn't need them. You're not going to be long. Fast forward all those months. Did you learn that you could do less though, that you could slow right down? Yes. Yeah. That's one of the takeaways that I

will be definitely keeping in my life for sure, is just to kind of chill out a little bit more and to give more time to myself, not rush around all the time. But nevertheless, it's still definitely innate in me to always, always be on the move, always doing stuff. And I will always keep that, but definitely learn to chill out a little bit more. I know that various points perhaps you could have come back, but then we were having spikes and you were trying to manage all of that with the whole infection risk. But I bet your family are happy to have you home. Yeah, definitely. They're super excited to have me back. Well, rather a longer trip than you'd planned. But Zoe Stevens, happy to talk to you. Happy to hear how that turned out. Thanks for joining us and talking to me this morning. Thank you.

I got a message from Annie just about our previous discussion my mum was a class one long distance lorry driver in the 70s this idea that women can't do it is seriously outdated with an exclamation point and going back to alice thompson who took her former employer to court and has got an 180 000 pound payout after she was barred from leaving at 5 p.m to pick up her daughter and working four days. We spoke to her just after Michaela Cole at the start of the programme. Corinna on email says to us, it would be great to hear your, it was great to hear your listeners' success with her employment tribunal. However, I think it's important not to put women off using them, making it clear that there are no fees to stage one tribunals where 94% of cases are settled.

And if someone is with a union, they will often cover legal costs. Your item made it sound like it costs tens of thousands of pounds and this would only happen if a case went to higher court. Well, that is the situation that she was in, but it's very important to broaden that out. And Frank on email says, speaking as an ex-director,

having employed and taken on many employees in the chemicals industry, I would rather have a few years of dedicated and productive work from a woman who has a child and then support them with flexible working in the glorious event that they return then make do with the lackluster output from some of their male colleagues even if they don't return they have often set a standard of performance and alice says surely this has also got to be about men leaving early and about parents too well alice made that point the other al I spoke to. Thank you so much for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr. Michael Mosley. And in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. Mmm, that's really good. To improve your heart. To playing video games. To enhance your brain power. Oh dear, I've been slaughtered, haven't I?

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It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.