Woman's Hour - Michelle Kholos Brooks, Monica McWilliams, Mandy Garner, Cecilia Floren, Sophie Willan

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

H*tler’s Tasters is a dark comedy about the young women who have the “honour” of being Adolf Hitler’s food tasters. The play explores the way girls navigate sexuality, friendship, patriotism, and poison during the Third Reich. Emma Barnett talks to its award winning playwright, Michelle Kholos Brooks After a record number of women are elected to Stormont we talk to Monica McWilliams an academic, peace activist, human rights defender and former politician who co-founded the Women’s Coalition political party in 1996 and was a signatory to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. A new survey by Working Wise has flagged that many working women are concerned about the gaps in work they've taken and what impact those gaps will have on their pension. The author of the research Mandy Garner tells us about her findings and we hear from Cecilia Floren who is worried about her pension.On Sunday, the Baftas saw Sophie Willan, the actress and creator of Alma’s Not Normal, take home an award for best female performance in comedy. The sitcom is based on Sophie’s own experience of growing up in care, and focuses on her relationship with the women in her family. Sophie dedicated her win to her grandmother, Denise Willan, who sadly passed away half-way through filming the show. She joins Emma to talk about their relationship and the importance of grandparents.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Giles Aspen Photo Credit: Hunter Canning

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Shortly, you're going to hear from Monica McWilliams, one of the key women behind the Good Friday Agreement, as the Prime Minister receives new legal advice regarding post-Brexit arrangements in Northern Ireland. But first, before we get to that, I wanted you to have a listen to something completely different.

And the BAFTA goes to Sophie Willard. Me and my grandma, because she brought me up, we went clubbing, well, no, we went to Ibiza when she got divorced. And she went to the Café d'Almar, you know, in a two-piece zebra print. She looked amazing. She went to the Café d'Alma and I joined the Hotel Drama Club. And that's where it all began. That is what Sophie Willan, the actor and creator of BBC Two comedy Alma's Not Normal, had to say in her speech at the weekend at the BAFTAs as she won Best Female Performance in Comedy. I'll be talking to her very shortly. It's actually her second BAFTA. She told me just before coming on air,

she's put them next to each other and she's given them quite brilliant names, which we'll get into. But I wanted to ask you, she dedicated her win, she made a speech there to her grandma. Who would you dedicate a speech or a win or something like that in your life?

Who would come to mind straight away that you would have to thank and why? Tell me. 84844. You might obviously go blank and may have gone blank in such moments, but who is that person that got you through? For her, of course, it's a very strong bond

having been in care that her grandma then looked after her and gave her the inspiration to keep going with her dream. What about for you? 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged to your standard message rate or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me throughout the whole programme about this or about anything else you hear, as you so often do, very kind to do.

You can email me through the Woman's Hour website. I was also just thinking when asking who you were going to dedicate something to. And of course, you may not win an award. You may never win an award in your life. I hope you do. But if you don't, I may also be talking, of course, about speeches at weddings, birthday parties, all sorts of things where you may have had to think of someone. And maybe you forgot.

Does that still haunt you? Who have you forgotten in a speech that you should have paid tribute to? The reason that's in my mind this week is you may have heard my interview with Abby Morgan, the scriptwriter, the screenwriter. She was on Tuesday's programme. She still regrets not including her husband in one of the most important speeches of her life when she won

an Emmy. She forgot her partner Jacob. Well, we had a completely different conversation about Jacob and what's happened to him since, which I have to say a lot of you have been in touch about. It's hugely emotional, hugely moving. If you missed that, catch up on BBC Sounds from Tuesday's programme. But Abby and I also talked about missing people out.

So who have you missed out? Who must you include? Let me know. 84844. Also on today's programme, a group of young women responsible for eating Hitler's food to check if it was poisoned. Did you know about that? That was an actual job during World War II. They had to sit and wait and see what happened to them. Can you imagine? It's inspired a new darkly comic play showing in New York. I'm going to be speaking to the playwright very shortly. And we're going to

examine the gaps in women's pensions caused by women filling the gaps in care. All of that to come. But first, we are told Boris Johnson has new legal advice allowing him to override parts of the post-Brexit treaty for Northern Ireland, what is known as the Northern Ireland Protocol. Designed to avoid the need for a hard border with the Republic of Ireland, the deal came into force last year and imposed checks on goods moving between Britain and Northern Ireland. That has angered unionists, who claim it has effectively made a border in the Irish Sea instead. One of the reasons for the new legal advice making the headlines today

is because the protocol is causing social unrest. That's the claim, a threat to peace and the need to protect what the Prime Minister calls the most important agreement, the Good Friday Agreement. Well, what does one of the key women behind the Good Friday Agreement think of that justification? Monica McWilliams, the former leader of the Women's Coalition Party, academic and peace activist who put women at the heart of those negotiations in the 90s, joins me now. Good morning, Monica. Good morning. Thank you for being with me and for being with all of us. Do you buy that justification? It's a very difficult issue at the minute and it does need to be resolved. We thought coming out of this election that we could

get into an assembly, which is much needed because of the cost of living and the health crisis. And it looks like the newly elected members are going to be spectators rather than legislators. So there are two things that need to happen. They need to get back into negotiations and quickly, because a vacuum in Northern Ireland does create unrest. And it also doesn't help with investment, and quickly because a vacuum in Northern Ireland does create unrest. And it also doesn't help with investment, which is what our next generation of young people are really looking for,

which is jobs. The second thing I think that needs to happen is we need to dial down some of the rhetoric around it. It's not impossible to resolve this. All of the parties agree that we are in the single market because Northern Ireland is a different place. It is how to resolve the checks on the produce, particularly on animal produce, things like the possibility that Brazilian pork or New Zealand lamb could cross into Northern Ireland and then cross in to the south of Ireland, which remains in the EU.

So although it sounds complicated, we need to deal with the real problems and not the perceived problems. And having been at the negotiations for two years at the time of the Good Friday Agreement, there were much bigger issues at the table back then than there are now. So you are confident this can be solved? And of course, for those listening

and perhaps aren't as familiar with what's going on in Northern Ireland, the Democratic Unionist Party, the DUP, has refused to nominate a Deputy First Minister The Democratic Unionist Party, the DUP, has refused to nominate a deputy first minister, as they are in opposition, as I mentioned, unionists to the Northern Ireland Protocol as it stands. And so there is no devolved government in Northern Ireland at the moment. And there's a huge concern about that gap in the power of the chasm there that you're just talking about. But with regards to, for instance, what we've heard in the news today,

Suella Braverman, the attorney general, is arguing that signs of violence, an example, a hoax bomb attack targeting the Irish foreign minister, Simon Coveney, in March, in justifying the UK over the overriding potentially this Brexit post Brexit deal to keep the peace. Do you accept that as a reason? It shouldn't be the main reason. And I'm not and I don't think any of the people in Northern Ireland believe that we will go back to violence. I am a member of the Independent Reporting Commission on Disbanding Paramilitary. So I do know about what unrest looks like. And I was there at that meeting when the Foreign Affairs Minister, Simon Coveney, from Ireland had to abandon the meeting and the building had to be evacuated.

I also know what has happened afterwards and people on the ground have got back into dialogue about making sure that things like that don't happen again. We do know that we've come through a year of unrest on the streets around the protocol and indeed that may continue. There may be unrest on the other side, people taking to street protests over the cost of living here in Northern Ireland

when there's 300 million sitting in the budget, ready to be handed out to those who are suffering most. But it can't be because of the stalemate. And it can't be because on this week, tomorrow, we should be electing a speaker. of the stalemate. And it can't be because next, on this week, tomorrow, we should be electing a speaker. The current speaker has officially retired and there needs to be a vote and there probably won't be a sitting.

But there are other issues. One of the good things to come out of the election was the cross-community party, the Alliance Party, as now the third largest party. And so other issues, not just the protocol, will have to be resolved in terms of the fact that their votes, like mine, when I represented the Women's Coalition in the Assembly, don't count for votes on the Speaker.

So there are a number of issues that can be resolved. Yes, so they're all going on in tandem. I suppose it sounds like you are sceptical that the Good Friday Agreement is at risk. No are sceptical that the Good Friday Agreement is at risk. No, I'm not. The Good Friday Agreement is not at risk. Right. So you are sceptical of that argument that it is potentially at risk? Oh, yes, yes, yes. It was very hard to make. And my message to the Prime Minister and anyone negotiating at the minute with the EU is don't break it. We decided back then that we had to resolve the interests on both sides.

And that's what you do when you go into negotiations. And the negotiations are between the UK and the European Union negotiators. So it's very easy to sit outside and make demands. But you have to actually understand that you must trust the people who are negotiating on your behalf. And all of the parties in Northern Ireland at the minute are very sceptical about whether or not they can trust Prime Minister Boris Johnson, because it seems that when he did make deals in the past, he went on to break them. At least that's what the DUP are saying and other parties likewise. Yes, I mean, and the DUP, of course, had been in that

arrangement with Theresa May previously, received a large sum of money and then did not have their needs met in the next, with the next leader, as you say, with Boris Johnson. And there will be, of course, repercussions from that. Do you buy into the idea, though, that this is a concern, you know, regardless of where people sit politically about Brexit, that this is a concern if the UK does get rid of some of the different parts of the Northern Ireland Protocol, because it's an agreement and how that makes us look around the world, our standing.

Theresa May was making this point yesterday. She made a very good point. And indeed, I think going back, had Theresa May was making this point yesterday. She made a very good point. And indeed, I think going back, had Theresa May's proposals been accepted, we would be in a very different place. And they should have been. But we are where we are. And I think the negotiations are about freeing up the paperwork that some of the businesses are saying is making their job more onerous. There's focus on the issue of pet travel. It's these things, the small things often that worry people

and some of the bigger things, obviously, about products being checked, hence the new name of the Irish Sea Border. And I think it's the symbolism of that that has created an identity issue also. We resolved that issue of being British or Irish or both. And I think I'm certain there's a recognition that people still believe that we can adhere to that principle that's in the Good Friday Agreement and resolve the current difficulties. I've always believed that the prize of peace is very precious and that we have to see our way through this. How instrumental were women and what women cared about to ensuring the Good Friday Agreement worked?

Very much so. And it often takes time for people to clap women on the back for what they've done. Women were known to hold the peace at the interfaces and at the peace lines, but they weren't actually expected, like we did, to get elected in six weeks to the peace talks under the title of Women's Coalition. And there were things in that agreement that wouldn't have been there if we had not been there. So we did add value to the comprehensive nature of the agreement in terms of sustainable peace.

We put an issue like the Civic Forum, which is now known as the Citizens' Assembly, to allow civil society, and we have a very active civil society in Northern Ireland, to have a voice. We had issues on integrated education and resources for young people for the next generation, but most importantly, also addressing the issue of victims and the legacy. So women do that. They pay attention to issues that men often don't pay attention to. And one of the good things about this election is the number of women have increased to 36%. When I was there, I could have painted a picture, as a picture was actually painted, a portrait of the First Assembly. And I called it Where's Wally? Because it was very difficult to spot the women.

There were only 13% of us and we weren't treated very well either in the run-up to that election or in the actual election in the assembly itself and that's the big issue that's come out now these past few days is the ritual abuse and humiliation of those women who ran for election and many of them luckily succeeded against all the odds in getting elected and held their heads high but it was a very, very toxic atmosphere. Yes. With pornographic material being distributed with a young woman called a hunter. And she said it was the worst two weeks of her life on the DUP side.

The detail has... I was just going to say, to fill in a couple of blanks there, you talk and we are talking at the highest number of women members in the Legislative Assembly, as you say, 36 percent, 32 of the 90 members, MLAs, members of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland, now women. But as you say, stories are emerging of how toxic some of those campaigns have been. A pornographic film you just mentioned there claiming to be of Cara Hunza, published on WhatsApp. Diane Forsyth of the DUP claimed there was a dirty tricks campaign against her. And Kelly Armstrong of the Alliance Party was sent a congratulatory email with a graphic image of an aborted fetus. With the record numbers, would you have expected, would you have hoped for it to be less toxic?

I don't think that it's the numbers that make the difference. Even though we have what's now called a critical mass, once you get over the 30%, I think it's this culture. And it's not just in Northern Ireland. It also exists, as you saw in terms of the remarks towards Angela Rayner, the deputy leader of the Labour Party. It shouldn't be commented on what we look like or how we're dressed or that we're distracting the male members of parliamentary bodies. And, you know, some of it was quite sad.

I mentioned also added to those names, Diane Dodds, who I remember her and her husband went through a very tragic period when their son, suffering from cerebral palsy, died. That was brought up in this election. She was trolled about the death of her son. Now, how bad is that? Along with the horrendous pornographic material that was sent or the rape threats against one of the Alliance Party candidates, Sorka Easton. I faced the same. The physical assaults, the verbal insults. Actually, many of them were recorded and hand-sarred in the official minutes, and I wrote

about them in my recent book, Stand Up, Speak Out. And that's the advice that I would give to others, is never feel that you're so demeaned, that this is an attack on you to humiliate you, to keep you maybe out of politics. but it's really important that we continue under the UN resolution of Security Council 1325 on women peace and security that women are still encouraged and empowered to enter the political fields and when they do and when they're in winnable seats they are in those new parliamentary bodies making legislation that might not been on the table had they not been there. Very powerful words, very important words. Speaking of words, I always do like, if I can, to include all of my guests in what we're asking our listeners today.

I bet you have given a few speeches over the years where maybe you've thought to thank somebody. Who comes to mind, Monica, when I was asking our listeners who you had to thank, who you had to pay tribute to? In the book I dedicated to my sister, we're known as Irish twins because there's only 11 months between us. In fact, we're both the same age as we speak for this month. Right. And at my wedding, I forgot to thank her. No. And she was the person who did everything and made it a perfect day for me. And I thanked everyone else. And I realised afterwards when I sat down, and it was unusual almost 40 years ago for a woman to stand up and make a speech,

but I wanted to because I wanted to show the gratitude of my family and friends who had brought me to that day. And then I sat down and we cut the wedding cake and I realised I'd forgotten to thank my beloved sister, who is my best friend, as well as my sister by birth. So this is an opportunity now on women's rights to say thank you. I'm so happy, Monica, I could help in a small way facilitate writing that wrong. Thank you for talking to us this morning and, you morning and putting this into the context of the bigger picture

and, of course, your key role in the Good Friday Agreement, which I'm sure is going to keep dominating the headlines. Monica McWilliams there. You're also getting in touch with speeches and who you would dedicate something to if you were able to make such a speech. My English teacher, Mr Terry Ayres, an exceptional

person in my life coming from a family where i was taught to know my place and people like us don't do mr airs always believed in my abilities and taught me to aim above my own expectations always no name on that or maybe there is actually i can get to that it's a little bit more on that with regards to the message here we go sally Sally is her name. Sally, good morning. At 64, you go on to say, I'm still aiming high and taking on new challenges, some of which work whilst others fail miserably. But thank you, Mr. Ayres, for showing me another way to think

and believe in myself and the power of one. And another one here, because I know that my next guest, and we all know she dedicated her win at the BAFTAs to her grandmother. We have a message here saying, Dear Woman's Hour, I would nominate my nana, hardest working woman ever. That's who comes to mind immediately when you say this. Three cleaning jobs to support bringing me and my sister from the ages of five and 18 months up when her daughter, our mam, died at the age of 32. This was one month after her husband, our grandad, died a month earlier.

What a woman. Yours, Dr Barbara Vest, OBE. Signing off with my full title as a lass brought up in a council house in a pit village in the northeast who was taught to work hard by an amazing woman. Love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you very much indeed for that message, which does lead me on to Sophie Willan, the actor and creator of BBC Two's Alma's Not Normal. She took home an award for best female performance in comedy at the BAFTAs at the weekend. And the sitcom is inspired by her own experiences growing up and focuses on the relationships between the women in her family as she tries to make it as an actress. But it was your words on Sunday night, Sophie, that's inspired us this morning to ask who you dedicate something to

and who you may have forgotten. So, Sophie, good morning and congratulations. Morning. Thank you. Are you recovered? Well, as you can hear, I'm a husk of a woman now. I partied for two and a half days. So I really let rip. Well, I was going to go back home the next morning, you know, sensible, post BAFTA.

And then I thought, why? So I took my ward, who I called Julie, I took her out for a liquid lunch with my boyfriend and it just went from there, really. Julie? About 4am. Well, I took the BAFTA back to the hotel and then I went out to GAY till 4am.

I was dancing Beverly Craven at 4am. Love it. Hang on, why is the BAFTA called Julie? After Julie Walters. So she's called Julie. And then I've got, obviously, the one for writing last year, she's called Caroline, after Caroline Ahern. Two of the absolute favourites. I love it.

And I just like the way you drop that in, you know, from my previous BAFTA. Oh, yeah, just get it in. Are they together now? Are they at one, these two BAFTAs? They're together, they've settled. They've got their own spot on the fireplace. I mean, they like to chat, but they also like their own space. So they're very independent women.

Just as they should be. Right, well, even though you're still recovering from partying, and I'm very happy to hear that people still actually, you know, go out and kind of ruin themselves for a few days after such a win. You dedicated this to your grandmother. Tell us why. Well, so I was kind of fostered by my grandma for quite a long time. I was fostered by other women as well, actually, all women.

But my grandma, I suppose, was probably one of the most important people in my life. And she passed away, unfortunately, on the second day of filming Alma. She'd been quite ill. But she was such a powerful woman. She was just such an incredible woman. I mean, she was a very complicated woman. You know, she'd had a lot of childhood trauma and she grew up in poverty.

So there was a lot of unprocessed stuff. So I'm not going to say the relationship was always easy. It was a very difficult, but very, very significant and important relationship. I actually left my grandma's work back into the system just before my 15th birthday. So there was, you know, definitely had its issues. But also I just left my grandma's work back into the system just before my 15th birthday. So there was, you know, definitely had its issues. But also I just loved my grandma probably more than anyone,

you know, really. She was just incredible. She very much liked Joan because Joan was kind of, Grandma Joan in Alma was very much inspired by my grandma. She was always wearing zebra print and animal print. So when it was her funeral, we insisted that everybody wore bright colors and animal print and we played a playlist of her favorite songs I read a poem and then I got

everybody up on their feet to teach them some of grandma's dance moves which was the wiggle the boob shake different things and then as she was leaving in her shepherd's shepherd's wool coffin yeah because she was insistent that she was some sort of nicaraguan shepherd very much like joan um we got her up and we played right said fred i'm too sexy she went out and they had them dancing as she went out so everybody danced out with her and off she went and then we played the northumberland bagpipes because uh she was very obsessed with finding out where she was from she had had recessed D negative blood group. So it's quite a rare blood group. I've got the same.

So she's always telling me, oh God, you know, we're Michelangelo. We've got Roman Egypt. I mean, and then there's kind of border reavers in Scotland. And, you know, she just never felt like she was from Bolton, really. She always felt like she was, I mean, she did look different as well. She had a very different look. So I think there was partly that. Then there was partly that and then there was she read into this thing that the recessive negative could be the missing link

to the aliens so she was quite into that I don't understand why because she just thought I'm not from this planet there's something around you know she was very eccentric I love what listen she obviously had a huge impression on you and she believed that you could do it, despite how hard it will have been to get to where you've got to. Yeah, I mean, there's a line in Alma where they sat on the steps and Joan says, you know, I could have been a star. Alma says, oh, I've watched. She says, I don't know, but I've always felt like one.

And I think that, you know, was kind of how I felt, Grandma felt. Yes. She always wanted to kind of, you know, she was you know I have my mum unfortunately my mum was ill with drugs and different things so never really left Bolton and was kind of ended up on the council stick that grandma was from so it's kind of but the thing for grandma was really wanting you know us to have this brilliant life and get out of Bolton and do exciting things, you know, with our lives. So she was really passionate about my creativity when she found out that I could perform in Ibiza. She was doing her own run out on, you know, she had four jobs.

She worked in a book is she worked and summers doing the sex toy parties, you know, giving out sex toys and running parties, a bit like an Avon lady with sex toys. And she had a cleaning job, you know, she worked for a man who freed his ice cream on the telly sales. She did loads of stuff. And she was just a very sociable, very eccentric person. So I think when she saw that I could perform, she thought, fabulous, you know, just you go and do it. Go and get them. And I mean, my goodness, you have. How are you finding being a double BAFTA winning star?

Oh, well, I feel I'm in my element. It's great. Well, it was really weird because Grandma died on the second day of filming and that was the same moment that I actually got nominated for the BAFTA, for the first BAFTA for writing. So it did feel like a bit of a parting gift. You know, it felt very odd very hard you know and we knew she was going to go because it was a super pink Native American moon you know which is very grandma

to leave on such an interesting moon you know um and then the next day I found out that I'd been nominated for a BAFTA and then I won that one and then this year it's kind of just over a year that she passed away and I won the acting BAFTA and I do feel like you know whether it's silly or not that you know these are kind of little you know notes from grandma yes from grandma I suppose you know what do you think she'd make of it oh she'd be absolutely loving it would she have been at the liquid lunch oh yeah I would I feel a bit sad because I think she would have loved to have gone to the BAFTAs. I would have loved to have taken her. I think she just, you know, like I said, she always felt like she was a star. I feel like she would have just lapped it all up. You know, she would have loved it.

So I kind of felt that she was with me anyway. But I would have loved to have taken her. Well, what a gift. And I think, you know, the double next to each other, you've given us such a vivid image of Caroline and Julie there. Yeah. I love it. What's next? Are we allowed to know what's next? Well, I'm writing the second series. Okay.

So, you know, I've got to get cracking now. I mean, I've had enough partying now, so I need to get on with it. Oh, you can have a bit more. Come on, it was only a few days. I want to speak. If I do any more, I'm a husk of a woman. So I think I'm going to get cracking with that and really just want to go tunnel vision on that, really, you know, and get to an interesting second series. And I want us to see other sides to the characters that we've not seen yet.

You know, I think there's more more to tell and you know I'm wanting to possibly explore Alma looking for her father and how that goes um and another side to Grandma Joan as well that we haven't had chance to see yet you know looking more into mental health and and you know the the impact of a poverty riddled childhood if you've not been able to process it and you know and all these different things you know postpartum and things like that which I think has been a big feature in my family but really undiagnosed I believe my mum had postpartum and actually was misdiagnosed and I think so that's something that I want to well will you come back and talk to me again on yeah and all of us have a chat about that well we'll get into all that you've just got to write

it first so I'll let you do that and then you'll come back. Brilliant. It's a date. Sophie Willan, huge congratulations again. Thank you so much. Lovely to talk to you. The actor and creator and double BAFTA award-winning star of BBC Two's Alma's Not Normal.

You're keeping getting in touch, please do, with who you would dedicate such a speech to or perhaps you've forgotten someone in a speech or also in the market for those stories. I would like to thank my dad, reads this message, for teaching me and my two sisters how to change car wheels and not to be too shy. Good lessons, excellent lessons. Keep them coming in on 84844. But a group of young women who were responsible during World War II for eating Hitler's food to check if it was poisoned, the story of them has inspired a new play. Can you imagine? What a job.

After they ate Hitler's vegetarian meals, they then had to wait to see what happened to them. Well, that now forms the basis of a new Darkly comic play showing in New York called Hitler's Tasters. And I'm joined by the play's writer, the award-winning playwright, Michelle Colas-Brooks. Michelle, I'm just going to say, before I say hello to you, I'm just going to start, I should say,

by playing a clip from the play where three of the young women, Margot, Liesel and Hilda, talk about what it might feel like if they ended up eating poisoned food. Do you think it would hurt? It would be over so fast. I don't think we'd feel a thing. No, definitely not. It wouldn't hurt. It would hurt. How do you know?

You don't know. I know that every muscle in your body will be attacked. That your head and neck and belly and tongue will feel like they're being stabbed with a scalding hot knife. I know that your arms and legs will jerk around and then go foam from the mouth like a rabid dog.

I know that your eyes will bleed and your eardrums will explode and your heart will try to hack its way out of your chest to escape the hell that's become your body. Michelle Colas-Brooks, that is rather dramatic, but my goodness, how frightened they must have been. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Why did you want to put this down? Why did you want to share this story? You know, when I heard this story, so somewhere around 2013, this German woman named Margot Volk came forward with this story. She was about 95

years old. And she finally told this story about having been conscripted to be one of Hitler's food tasters. And she said that Hitler explicitly asked for young German women of good German stock. And I just thought, I mean, first of all, I thought, you know, isn't adolescence hard enough? Can you imagine as a young woman being conscripted for this job to taste food that could possibly be poisoned? And then also there just seemed to be so many, you know, darkly, um, comic and dramatic moments inherent in young women being forced into a room together with nothing to do except wait to die. So, um, I sort of felt like who wouldn't want to write this story, but it, it touched so many buttons of concern for me that, um, I was very anxious to sort of dive in and explore it. And that he just wanted or that the requirement was just young women is very striking. Exactly right. I mean, these are the women who were supposed to be the future of the Reich.

They were supposed to be the bearer of German sons. And yet he was willing to sacrifice them to taste his food. And I thought, you know, what occurred to me over time as I was digging more into this play was it doesn't matter how privileged you are. It doesn't matter how special you are. If you align yourself with the tyrant, you're not safe. Nobody's safe. No, I mean, when looking at what the woman that you just mentioned, she gave an interview to De Spiegel, talking about how she was in this position in the first place, and the context of that Margot Volk, and how she felt. I mean, they're obviously absolutely terrified. She was only 24. And she said, in this particular interview, you know,

amazing food would come. Of course, it's during the war. Most people didn't have such things. Exotic fruits, brilliant vegetables and sauces rich with butter. Never any meat because Hitler was a vegetarian. But they wept as they ate because they were so afraid. And then they had to eat so much of it and wait an hour. I mean, I just had no idea. Yeah, it's this little footnote in history that not a lot of people know about. And, you know, I mean, the funny thing is, too, this is a this is a playbook, right? Like just a few just a few weeks ago, there an article came out about Putin's food tasters. This is something that these these men especially do, you know, time and time and time again. So it's it a story stuck in time as far as, you know, as far as I can see.

Well, and I mean, I mentioned, of course, it's a great name. I think it's a fantastic title of a play, Hitler's Tasters. And it works on a few levels and you want to know more and it draws you in. But I also understand some people have not been that comfortable with the name. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, we have had a little bit of pushback about the title. It's very interesting. I mean, there are some, you know, notable news organizations here in the US who have just refused to report on it because they don't want to say't want to say Hitler who I keep saying, but you know, he was a real person in history, right? Like it's not.

We can't erase that. Yeah. I've had a couple of critics that refuse to review the show and have said straight out, I won't, I won't, I won't come to see a show with that man's name in it. And I just, you know, I keep coming back to, well, not saying it doesn't erase him. It doesn't exist. And these are based on reported events in history. This is something that actually happened. Hitler used young German women to taste food for poison. That's what it is.

Were you surprised by this? You know, that people could have an issue with the name in the title? Well, you know, people have issues with a lot of things. I think you have to be prepared for anything, right? And you'll see that in the title of the play, we actually ended up substituting the I for an asterisk. And partially that was a way to deal with social media algorithms because we actually did get kicked off of Facebook personally and professionally for hate speech or something. Yeah. So we wanted to find a way to be able to post about it. But also, like once we put the asterisk in, we realized it opened up a really interesting conversation about what you can say and what you can't say these days. And apparently some people, you know, still can't say Hitler.

I only bring him up because I imagine it was a fascinating chat around the dinner table. But your father-in-law does happen to be the playwright Mel Brooks, the writer Mel Brooks, who wrote the satirical comedy, of course, The Producers, where a former Nazi laments that few people recognize the qualities of Hitler, such as his good head of hair, his dancing, his ability to tell a joke. I love it. I know it very well. Did you speak to him about writing this and also the reaction to including the name Hitler? He came to see the first reading of the play not knowing what the play was about, not even knowing the title of the play. So he was wonderful. He loved it. And when I said, you know, do you think maybe the title initially was a bit of a placeholder for me just to concentrate on the play.

And I said, I'm thinking about changing the title. He said, don't change the title. You can't change the title. You got, you know, it was really more of an order suggestion. You can't change the title. You got to say what it is. You always have to say what it is. If people don't get it, that's up to them. The people who will get it, we'll get it. And, you know, he's always given me this wonderful piece of advice where he says, if you're going to climb the tower, you got to ring the bell. And so that's, that's what's sort of kept me going through some of the naysayers and the people that, that, you know, refuse to come along. He's had plenty of this kind of pushback his whole life. So I figure, you know, he's been around. He knows a few things. He's done okay. If he can take it, I can take it. I like that. And I like that advice. Ring the bell. I'm going to keep that

in my mind. And are we going to have this in the UK? Could you bring it here? I would love to, if you have any suggestions. Oh, yeah. I'm on air till 11, but I'll think about it afterwards. Thank you. Thank you. If you could get on that. We've got this incredible team of women. We have managed to bring this play, the same team, since 2018. We've done it in a number of places. We were at Edinburgh Fringe a few years ago, had a fantastic experience.

And so our dream, our next dream is to be able to bring it to London. Well, we hope you can bring it to the UK. We hope you can bring it to the UK. We hope you can bring it to London and maybe even further afield, especially if it's already has been developed, been in Edinburgh, been at Edinburgh at the Fringe. There is a question that's just come in. You may not know the answer because I know this is inspired by true events.

Did any of Hitler's tasters die at the time? Do we know? Well, according to Ms. Volk, and she's really my source material, none of the women died from poison, but they were sort of brought in more toward the end of the war, and the Russians came in and apparently, according to her, killed all of them. apparently there was a guard or something that felt very friendly toward her he smuggled her out but she was still captured by the Russians a couple weeks later and was held hostage for a while and went through all the horrible things that women go through in war and but she somehow lived to be 95 and tell this story so luckily she I'm so happy that she told it. Yeah. And of course, I'm sure in part the play is a tribute to that and a tribute to what she was able to share. And, you know, we are about to hear actually a firsthand account from a woman escaping Ukraine. So, of course, people thinking at the moment about

a lot of the time women's experiences and what's going on in the world with particular reference to Ukraine. It must be one of those things I imagine as a writer that you're looking at the world around you and you are also feeling that there are relevant parts to add in or reflect. It's been staggering to see the parallels in culture over the past few years. And one of the things that's been great about working with the same team is that I've been actually able to update the play because we do use contemporary elements in the play. We do use anachronisms.

The girls all have cell phones. They dance to contemporary music. And we have references to pay attention to what's happening in culture that parallels that time. Just recently, I mean, opening night, I had just gotten, I live in Los Angeles. I had just gotten off the plane in New York and my phone is blowing up about what's happening

with the Supreme Court here. And so I called the girls and I said, we have to say something. We have to say something in the play. And they said, absolutely, write something in. And so opening night, we had a new line about choice. So it's been a very dynamic play in that way. But it's heartbreaking to see the parallels that continue.

Michelle Colesbrooks, all the best with it. We hope to see you here in the UK. Good luck with the rest of the run. It's called Hitler's Tasters and the name is not changing. You heard it there very clearly indeed. And also things being reflected contemporaneously as well. Great question from whomever sent that in. I'm always helped to do send them in and I do read them and I do have a look. 84844 is the number you need to get in touch this morning.

But as I mentioned, a first-hand account for you now. One of my colleagues, the BBC producer Kirsty McKenzie, has been working with a few women as they escape the war in Ukraine in an attempt to understand what they are going through. The result is a series of audio diaries, one of which I can share with you this morning. Irina is from Mariupol. Shortly after the start of the war, she fled the city, leaving behind her mother and grandmother who wanted to stay to try to protect their homes. Within days of fleeing, it became clear to Irina and her husband and her sister that there was no going back.

The small group moved from bomb shelter to bomb shelter around Ukraine until at last she and her sister made the heartbreaking decision to leave the men in the family behind and leave the country with their children. It's six o'clock on Monday, the 7th of March. Good morning. The main news this morning, President Zelensky of Ukraine has condemned Russian attacks on civilians, saying that his country will never forget and never forget. Me and my family in bomb shelter. My husband, my daughter, my sister and her small daughter.

She is two years old. In a video message, the president accused Moscow of committing murder and said atrocities would be punished. There is 20 people in this bomb shelter. We're very lucky because it's a real bomb shelter and we are just sitting and waiting. We will not forgive the destroyed houses. We will not forgive the missiles that hit our land. Now all shooting was around the city and I'm afraid, I'm scared. I'm afraid for my family, for my daughter. Russia has again said it will open safe routes out of Ukrainian cities, but shelling is still preventing the evacuation of civilians from places like besieged Mariupol.

Today, 12 days of the war, I don't know anything about my mother and grandmother and about my mother-in-law. They are in Mariupol. We know that they don't have water. We don't know are they alive. We believe that they are alive. Tomorrow we will try to go out of the country with children because it's too hard. The American Secretary of State Antony Blinken says the United States and its European allies are exploring the idea of banning Russian oil imports. All my seven days I hear nothing about my mother, my grandmother and my husband's mother. Mariupol still don't have any help.

Today we try to move to the board with Poland. Now we wait for transfer on the Poland board. Today I left my husband. And I don't know, will I see him again? I left my mother, I left my grandmother, I left my husband. They're still in dark, dangerous, without water and food. Russian reports in the past hour say new humanitarian corridors are being opened in cities including Kiev, but relentless Russian artillery and missile bombardments are worsening

the severe crisis for civilians across the country. My first immigration, we were transferred and I called all friends today. We read in chats that in Mariupol was bombed today. I hope my relatives alive. Простите за длинный переговор. Я сейчас в Берлине. А, я вижу, что у тебя есть попа. Сейчас я с дочерью моей сестры. Мы находимся в маленьком квартире в Берлине с собаками и детками. Немного разрушены. a little bit confused. A few days ago our friend in Mariupol visited my parents and said that they are alive. It like some horror story.

Grocery is a big expedition. It's hard to understand what price. I'm not okay. I cry almost every day because I see peace and happiness around in Berlin. People who don't know anything about war pretty house pretty windows pretty people and I feel that I want my home my life I'm 40 years old and I must start everything from nothing yesterday some people give us phone number of men who maybe can took our relatives from Mariupol. It costs two thousand of dollars. We take all our money with sister and give

him this money. Maybe it's not true, maybe we just lose money, but we don't know what to do. It's some hope, hope to find our relatives. Mariupol absolutely destroyed. There are no house without some crash of bombing. Expectations were always low going into the third round of peace talks between Russian and Ukrainian negotiators. I have very good news. My mother and my grandmother, they are alive and now we have calling almost every day in the morning. We know that they were underground from 16 March to 26 April. I must be happy, I'm okay, but sometimes I see something that remembers me, my home.

Yesterday I saw the woman who is very looks like my mother and it was so strange. I want to have opportunity to see my mother, to talk with her when I want it. Not only the few minutes in the morning. I want to home. Irina from Mariupol there with some of her story. And big thanks to my colleague, the producer Kirstie McKenzie, for giving that to us and allowing us to share it this morning. And to Irina, of course for for making those recordings too we'll bring you another audio

diary we hope next week from a woman called Vera to try and get a sense of what some of the women are going through especially those who are able to talk as they try to escape now a new survey has flagged that women are concerned about the gaps in work that they've taken, often for caring duties, and what impact those gaps are going to have on their pension. Gillian Nissim is a founder of the organisation that did the research looking into this. The research has been put together by a company called Working Wise. I will talk shortly to Cecilia Florin, who is concerned presently about her pension. But first, I wanted to come to you, Gillian. Good morning. To understand what your research has found. Good morning. Well, really, the reason we launched the research was to understand more about the experience of older women in the workplace around concerns regarding the gender pension gap and things like the impact of menopause

on equal caring responsibilities and career breaks. And what the findings have shown is that there is a real concern amongst women about, and there is a huge impact on pensions as a result of the cumulative effect of decisions being taken at an earlier stage in a woman's working life. So we're obviously familiar with the gender pay gap but there's there's a phrase you're using the gender pension gap what do women will have on leaving employment.

Other research has shown that on average, men will retire with around £140,000 or women will have around £140,000 less in pension savings than men. I mean, that's a huge amount. So we really wanted to drill down into the causes for this and the impact for women, because the repercussions are that many women are going to need to keep on working beyond retirement to make ends meet and are struggling to be, they're worried about financial independence.

Let me bring in Cecilia at this point. Good morning, Cecilia. Welcome to the programme. Morning, thank you. You've got three jobs, but only one comes with a pension. Is that right? Yeah, no, that's correct. Yeah. And tell us a bit about that and where your thinking is around this and what age you are, if you don't mind,

and when you started thinking about pensions. Well, I'm 45 and to be honest, I haven't really thought about pensions until sort of participating in this survey through Working Wise, which did sort of, you know, put in my head the idea that it is something that I should actually be thinking about. And then when you do think about it, a lot of jobs that one does, for instance, my other two jobs, they're sort of not fully employed jobs, hence there is no pension that comes with them.

It's basically a salary per hour kind of job, zero-hour contract kind of thing. Yes. So you don't get those benefits. And I suppose this is the issue, isn't it? If you don't, you know, sometimes you're obviously in a situation where that's not available. So that's just how it is. As you're talking about in your role, lots of people be familiar with that. But also there's the issue that people aren't thinking about this until they need to.

No, well, exactly. They aren't. And this is something that I think is is actually I have two daughters and one's 19, one's 14. And I'm like, actually, guys, you know, you're already working. They're both working. And like you've got to think about these things early on and start you know making plans not just relying on a state pension but private pensions and actually putting aside because otherwise you will spend the rest of your life working well yes and you you've also you've had some gaps that we're talking about you know in terms of when working when not working doing different things and but you've also had some other jobs where you have paid into a pension yeah no so I've had various jobs so I've got obviously I think I've got about six pensions running at the moment but it's again how do you figure out how to manage them and bring them

together do you bring them together do you go to something like pensionee and put them together? Or do you let them all do their own thing? And how do you know? It's not very clear. It's not easy. No, it's not. I mean, and there's a lot of advice out there, of course. And we'll post some links actually on the Women's Hour website for particular advice.

But I suppose that the purposes of this conversation was to highlight, you know, that people aren't necessarily thinking about their pensions, but also these gaps that women have, these very specific gaps in their career how they can contribute I mean where's your mind at Cecilia about retiring have you got an age have you thought about when you would like to if it's possible to do that well I mean obviously I'd like to be able to retire at the age of 60 or 65. You know, you still want to have enough time to actually enjoy living. However, can you afford to do so? That's the question. So, no, I think that I can foresee at least another 30 years working, at least.

Gillian, let me bring you back in. What has your research shown then about these gaps that women have in their career and on what impacts they have on on what they end up with in their pension so what we're seeing is that um at particular age if if women have caring responsibilities particularly around child care they're um either reducing or completely stopping pension contribution contributions um they're maybe out of work for a period of time, again, so they're obviously not contributing. And then often going back into work on a part-time basis,

perhaps in lower paid roles. And all of these factors have that kind of longer-term cumulative effect. And some are finding challenges getting back into good quality, flexible roles that allow for career progression, therefore salary progression, and difficulty in returning to work full stop after a career break that often is 5, 10, 15 years. Are you hoping with this research, though,

to change the behaviour of women or change something with the government? I think there is a lot that needs to change across the board. I think for women and families, more awareness, financial awareness early on, the early stages of a career are really important. And I think there is a lot the government can do to provide more advice, more ease of access to pension advice in that area. I also think that, you know, we really want to shine a light on it. I think there's a lot that employers can do as well

to support good quality, flexible roles to encourage equal parental leave. So the burden of care isn't always on women. So allowing some kind of continuity in working. Yes and of course your research also was revealing around those saying well perhaps they would have to rely on a partner to make up shortfalls but of course not everyone's going to be in that situation either. No absolutely not and I think again that these are the kind of things that we need to be thinking about early in our working life which is hard to do it's hard I think when you're 20, 25 to be thinking about what life and what you want from life age 60 and decisions that you're making early um it's having the the advice on hand i think to um look at different routes in

the future that will allow for financial well-being and and financial independence well julian nissen thank you very much. Founder of the organisation that looked at this. The research is from Working Wise. Cecilia Floring, all the best to you. You sound like you're a very busy woman indeed, but now with a bit more to think about, try to figure out what to do.

Certainly also, I've heard a lot of people who have issues around and not knowing necessarily how to consolidate pensions. But thank you for bringing your experiences to us this morning. I have to say, many of you getting in touch with your experiences throughout the programme, I just want to make sure I get through a few of those. But Catherine just messaged in to say, I've long thought we need education around state and work-based pensions

before students leave school. I believe it would inform choices in life, especially for women and the self-employed. But also many messages still coming in off the back of that brilliant speech, that acceptance speech from Sophie Willan, the very funny Sophie Willan, who I spoke to just before, the actor and creator of BBC2 comedy Alma's Not Normal, who's been partying since Sunday because she won her second BAFTA for Best Female Performance in Comedy and she dedicated it to her grandma in the speech which you were just hearing about. Jude, I was asking who you would dedicate something to

in a speech or perhaps you've forgotten someone. Some very, very good messages. Jude says, My upstairs neighbour changed my life nearly 50 years ago. I was at home all day with a small baby and he was a retired doctor. I said to him, I wish that I'd gone to medical school.

He said, why don't you? There you go. I think you have. You haven't quite finished it and let me know, but that's the inference and I'm going with it. My English teacher, Sue Willis, her gentle approach made an enormous difference to me, says Lucy, during some difficult teen years. She inspired me to study English at university and carve out a career in publishing, which suits me perfectly. I would love to have the chance to chat with her again one day. Do it, go on. Sue was ahead of her time during the mid-90s with understanding wellbeing,

and she often started lessons by getting us to visualise a white sheet floating on the washing line to help us relax through creativity. I still do that sometimes. And Helen says, when I got married in 92, my husband and the best man made speeches, neither mentioning me. So I stood up, introduced myself and made a speech to put it right. Surprisingly, we're divorced. Ellen, thank you very much for that. Thank you for your company today. We're back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the

next one. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Mosley, and in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. Mmm, that's really good. To improve your heart. To playing video games. To enhance your brain power.

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