Woman's Hour - Michelle Williams, Long Covid and 25 years of Goodness Gracious Me

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

The Hollywood actor Michelle Williams began her career aged 16 on the TV drama Dawson’s Creek. Now, at 42, she’s starring in Steven Spielberg’s new film The Fabelmans, based on his own family. She plays Mitzi, a concert pianist who’s put her artistic ambition aside to raise a family, and is struggling to play a supporting role to her computer genius husband. But the crucial relationship portrayed in the movie is the one between Mitzi and her son, Sammy. Michelle joins Anita to explain why she was attracted to the role.There are an estimated 2.1 million people in the UK experiencing self-reported long covid, according to data from the Office for National Statistics which affects women more than men. But in the NHS priorities and operational planning guidance for 2023-24, no mention was made of Long Covid. Dr Binita Kane is a Consultant Respiratory Physician in Manchester. She also has a daughter with long covid and knows the challenges that causes and is worried that Long Covid has been deprioritised. She is joined by Dr Melissa Heightman, clinical lead for Post Covid services at University College Hospital London, and the National speciality advisor with the long covid programme for NHS England.Some outfits grab all the attention. Think Lady Gaga's meat dress, Madonna's Cone bra or J Lo in her plunge neck green Versace dress. Well Monday night saw the return of the ITV dating show Love Island but it was the outfit worn by the new host Maya Jama that got everyone talking. It was sexy, and red, and - you might be surprised to know - crocheted. The person who made it is the young designer Sierra Ndagire who joins Anita.It’s been 25 years since Goodness Gracious Me graced our television screens on BBC 2. It was the first comedy sketch show conceived, written and performed by British Asians. Anita Rani chats with the multi-hyphenate artists, Meera Syal and Nina Wadia from the original ensemble cast. They discuss how they birthed a new “Asian Comedy” genre and its role today, getting spotted in a restaurant by George Michael, and some of their infamous sketches that added a new lens to British women.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We've made it to Friday and this week there has been a fashion moment. Did you see the red crocheted outfit Maya Jammer wore for Love Island? You'd know it if you'd seen it because quite frankly she looked fire in it. Well I'll be talking to the woman who crocheted that outfit especially. So today I'd like to hear about the clothes you've made for yourself and the satisfaction it gave you to make them and more importantly wear them. Paula in the office today came in wearing a scarf she'd knitted herself, was very proud about it and so she should be because it's magnificent. And Emma in the office has bought a sewing machine to make her bridesmaids dresses.

I know, a talented crafty crew over here at Woman's Hour HQ. But how about you? Have you made something for yourself or a loved one? What was it and how treasured is it? The last time I made something was a pair of culottes in 1993. Yes, I said culottes. And I made them in needlework. Yes, I said culottes and needlework in the same sentence. But I know there's lots of you creating fabulous outfits out there and I would love to know about them this morning. They can be more, you know, up to date than culottes.

84844 is the number to text. You can also contact me via our website if you want to email me. But also drop me via our website if you want to email me. But also drop me a WhatsApp note. It's 03700 100 444 or even better, a voice note if you'd like to tell me a story about the outfit. We also have some Hollywood stardust on the programme today. Yesterday, I met the talented and radiant Michelle Williams to talk about playing a version of Steven Spielberg's mother in the new film, The Fablemans, which is about his life, but it's also a love letter to his parents.

And the sparkle doesn't stop there. Goodness gracious me! Makes me smile just hearing that music. 25 years since Goodness Gracious Me made its screen debut, one of the best comedy series ever seen on British TV, in my humble opinion. There was life before Going for an English and life after that genius sketch.

And today I'll be talking to both Meera Sayal and Nina Wadia about their time on the show. Also today, a conversation around long COVID. So if you would like to get involved and tell me about your experiences of anything you hear on the program we would love to hear from you that text number once again 84844 but first the hollywood actor michelle williams began her career aged 16 on the tv series dawson's creek now at 42 she's playing a version of steven spielberg's mum in his semi-autobiographical

new film, The Fablemans. Mitzi Fableman is a concert pianist who's put her artistic ambition aside to raise a family and is struggling to play a supporting role to her computer genius husband. But the crucial relationship portrayed in the movie is the one between Mitzi and her son, Sam. Here she is suggesting to him a way he can process a highly realistic train crash scene he saw at the cinema. Sammy, we're going to use Daddy's camera to film it. Only crash the train once, OK? Then after we get the film developed,

you can watch it crash over and over till it's not so scary anymore. And your real train won't ever get broken. One more thing, Dolly. Let's not tell your father. It'll be our secret movie, just yours and mine. OK? OK. It really is spielberg magic well i sat down with michelle williams in a london hotel

yesterday and we got right into it michelle thank you so much for your time and welcome to woman's hour thank you so much for having me what an honor you get to play some you have got to play some iconic women marilyn monroe gwen ferdin yeah i'm going to put Jen from Dawson's Creek in there because she's an icon in my eyes. Oh, thank you. Thank you for calling it back all the way to Jen Lindley. She would be so happy to be in the company of Gwen Ferdin and Marilyn Monroe. She meant a lot to a lot of young women in that era.

But where does being asked to play Steven Spielberg's mom come into that lineup? You know, it's icing on a cake I can't believe I've gotten to eat. It's funny because, you know, she definitely has a relationship to those other women that you're naming. I mean, one, I always say, like, I could never have played all of these women without first having played Jen Lindley. You know, that was really, it's kind of an incredible training ground to spend six and a half years on a show like that. You learn so much about the very technical side of acting, which is how to hit a mark, how to learn a lot of dialogue and then let it go so that you can learn more the next day. It also just taught me how to be a professional person. I was very young when that show started.

I was 16 years old, and I had to get myself to work. I had to stay healthy. I had to figure out how to make dinner for myself. I had to figure out doctor's checkups and, you know, just really how to balance a professional life and a personal life. And I got to do that on this show. I got very deep practice, six and a half years. So you can see the correlation to this point today. I really do. I mean, I think that, you know, each job, whatever your last job was, for me, it always recalls the first job because you're always looking at the distance

that you've traveled. And because being an actor, you're constantly getting new work. So it's always a stimulating, unknown environment. And it always, to me, just recalls my beginning. And I look at that line and I see how far I've traveled. And is this the ultimate stamp of approval to be asked by Steven Spielberg to play his mom? Because he had his eye on you from 2010 when you were in Blue Valentine. He clocked you then. It really is something. I still, I don't know if I'll ever get over it. I'm clearly not over it

because I haven't worked since I made this movie. I did have my third child, so I was busy making a human. But I haven't taken on another film job. This experience was very special to me because it was so special to him. And also because we had such an incredible time together. I've never had such abundant joy on a set before. I've never enjoyed myself so much while working so hard and at such an extreme level.

Because, you know, for everybody, for the people behind the camera extreme level because, you know, for everybody, for the people behind the camera, for costumes, for hair, for makeup, when you're working for Steven Spielberg, you feel how momentous that is because you're really taking a part in film history. You will be in his canon forever. So the bar is so high and you're just jumping to reach it every day. And at the same time, experiencing such profound joy to be at work. So I never wanted it to end. And I think somehow by not taking another job, I'm keeping part of myself still attached to that experience. Well, you were amazing. Out playing Mitzi, who is the mother, the character who is

the mother of Sam. What's the special bond between the two of them? Describe their relationship. I would say that it's rooted in play, and it's rooted in imagination, and it's rooted in believing that you don't have to grow up entirely to become an adult, that you can just keep a toe in this very fertile ground of childhood in a land where everything is possible before people start telling you how you have to behave, how you have to live, what kind of order you have to impose on your life. I think that his mother defied all of that. And a long time ago, by the way, like what a modern soul she was. And she's incredibly free spirited. It's almost like even watching you play her. She has this, she's on a different frequency. Very much so. And, you know, you can feel it. There's so many home movies of her.

There's so many beautiful home videos and also stills. And she just kind of jumps out of the image. She was really sparkling. She was larger than life. And you can feel her presence in these faded, fuzzy home documents of her. That's how big she lived. So when you're watching those home movies of Steven Spielberg's Real Mom, how do you decide how you're going to play her? You just spend a lot of time

with her. You're very patient. You're just watching, watching, watching, listening. Before you start pinning anything down, you're really just in a kind of in a state of absorption. Mitzi is a musician. She's a very accomplished piano player. She's creative. She's artistic. We said she's free spirited. And she's actively encouraging his art. She wants him to pursue filmmaking, which is his passion. His dad is scientific, and he calls it his hobby. And she sort of says to him, don't call him, don't call it his hobby, you know, let him pursue this. There's a conflict between the parents. Right. Between the, as she says later in this house

it's art or it's science yeah and look at what that combination that tension made is this man steven spielberg who you know has shaped the way a country uh countries a planet sees film yeah and it was his mother that encouraged. And it was his mother that encouraged it. Yeah, it was his mother that encouraged it. But his father also brought in this technical prowess that is very much a part of Stephen's filmmaking. Yeah. And his dad was a genius.

His dad was a genius. And his mother was the creative force behind it. She's also this pivotal character in the film. Everybody looks to her, the children, the two men, the husband, and the best friend, Benny, who she eventually has to leave the husband to be with because she makes that choice for herself. But her emotions impact everybody else. They look to her.

If she's happy, everyone's happy. When she's sad, everyone's sad. She's like the sunshine. Yeah. And when it's behind a cloud, you feel the difference. What's interesting in the film as well is watching this, you said that she's a really modern soul. I just wonder how many of these women were modern souls in 1960s choices of a limited housewife, you know, that those are the lives that they had to live. And actually they wanted freedom, but they had to make sacrifices. But they had to make sacrifices. And for, you know, I always thought about her.

She, when she decided to not pursue her dream of becoming a concert pianist, she experienced a living death. She let a part of herself go because her mother, her own mother, wanted her to make a safer choice, have a family, get married. And so she experienced a kind of living death. And so when she's confronted with this, with a love for two people, I always thought she knows what it feels like to go against her nature. She did that once and she just can't do it again. Yeah, incredibly brave

choice to make. The film is a love letter to his parents, but particularly to his mum. There is so much humanity in that character. You know, if it was just a story being told elsewhere of a woman who's married with four children in the 60s and then she leaves the husband for the best friend, I think it might have been told very differently had it not been through the eyes of the child who watched it happen. I think so, too. What moved me so much is there's no I don't feel like anyone no one is judging her for anyone, no one is judging her for this. And no one is punishing her for this. Nothing bad happens to her. Yeah. In fact, her life flourishes, as her life did. And in fact, her children's lives flourish, as in fact, her children's lives did. Because she, I think, because she lived so honestly and so in tune with her own nature, I think it liberated her children to do the same thing. And I think that's what grew this great love for her,

is because she passively gave them the gift of self-actualization. And that amazing line at the very end where she looks at him, her son, and says, you owe nobody your life, not even me. Oh, I cried. I wept. She didn't have her children so that they would reflect well on her or become what she never could be. She had her children so that they could go off into the world and become themselves. And that's harder than it sounds. I think a lot of parents have expectations and ideas about who their kids are. And that's really limiting for a child.

That's, you know, that's a box that somehow they have to then break free of. But she didn't do that to her kids. And I think that's why, you know, all these many years later, Stephen found himself wanting to memorialize both his mother and father in film forever. Yeah. You say, you know, it is amazing to watch her liberate herself and not be punished. And we see that in the film. But we also see the conflict of the sacrifices she's made to keep this family unit together and the expectation that she should stay in this marriage because on the face of it, there's nothing wrong, right?

Other than that, she's just deeply unhappy and she doesn't want to be there. And she's moving from one kind of love to another kind of love. I think that there is deep love between Mitzi and Bert, between Stephen's real parents, and actually a kind of love that continued after she left and married the best friend. Stephen's father also remarried. But then there was a moment in their lives when they found themselves, both of their partners had passed, and they were together again in their much older age. So it's not that the love—in fact, that's, I think, what was so painful about it. That's certainly what felt so painful in filming the divorce scene, was that there's still so much love between these two people.

But it isn't the right kind of love to make a marriage on. And she knew that and she couldn't betray herself. But the amount of courage it takes to do that, even now, never mind in the 60s. Right, even now. Even now, it says a lot about her personality and just how much of a firecracker she was. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? I know. At the premiere, Steven Spielberg came on stage and says, you're about to watch $40 million worth of therapy. What was it like being on set? Just how emotional was it being with a director who is that vulnerable? Oh, it was, it was really a thing to behold. I mean, it was just watching somebody unzip their heart and ask you to come inside. Yeah. It was a beautiful thing to witness. You've got that

forever. You know, I do. Yeah. Not a moment of this was lost on me. Every day that I went to set, I took into my own heart. I know that I didn't miss this experience while it was occurring in my life. I was there for every moment of it. Which, you know, to have that kind of presence, right? I mean, that's what his mother had. She had pure presence for the moments in her children's adolescence that can be so easy to miss because there's so much going on and there's so much, you know, life with kids is very busy and there's always something to clean up. But she refused to allow herself to be distracted by the more mundane, more adult-like details of life with children. And instead, she went into experience. She went into imagination. She went into play. And that's

why she lives so large in her children's memories. And I think that's really inspired me personally. I was just going to say, you've got a teenager, you've got a toddler, and you've got a baby. Has it made you reflect on your own? Oh, hugely. I'm so grateful that I got to play this woman as I am growing my family. And as I am going back into early childhood, I'm so grateful to have the memory of this woman very much alive in me, very much inspiring me and affecting my own kids now. I think about her all the time. Amazing. And I think I am not going to go clean up that mess. I

am going to go play with the trains. Have you started serving dinner in paper plates yet and just throwing everything in the bin and not bothering with the dishes? Because that was very good. Well, because we have a newborn, we've been ordering a lot of takeout, which is definitely a version of not doing the dishes dishes that was me in conversation with michelle williams i love that moment where she said that she was there for every single moment of it very moving the fabelmans is out in cinemas next friday from the 27th of january lots of you getting in touch about outfits that you've made for yourself. I knew it. Very creative bunch. I made my wedding dress from two meters of pink.

Oh, I like this. Pink Liberty Dupion silk in 1987. It cost £30 and I was still stitching it on the morning of my wedding. I later unpicked it and made a dress for my little girl. And that's from Jane. What a lovely story. Another wedding dress, Diana Crafer in Swindon. I made my wedding dress

in raw silk and lined it with silk my sister insisted it must be silk best moments at the wedding um hearing someone say but she can't have made it it's got piped cuffs and neck but it was back in 1996 i could afford silk and had a great and had great fun choosing it terrifying though it was to sew but you did it and i regularly knit for my says myself says jill and my family mainly jumpers and socks there is nothing more satisfying than finishing a colorful pair of hand knitted socks where the heel has been turned perfectly experienced knitters will know exactly what i mean i was taught by my mother when i was around seven years old and i still have my old teddy wearing the first jumper I ever knitted. I'm still proud

of it 50 plus years later. 84844 is the number to text. Next. Data from the Office for National Statistics shows that in December 2022 an estimated 2.1 million people in the UK were experiencing self-reported long Covid which affects more women than men. But in the NHS priorities and operational planning guidance for 2023 to 2024, no mention was made of long COVID. Dr Benita Kane is a consultant respiratory physician in Manchester. She also has a daughter with long COVID and knows the challenges that causes. She's worried that long COVID has been deprioritised. She joins us now, as does Dr Melissa Heitman, Clinical Lead for Post-COVID Services at University College Hospital London and the National Speciality Advisor with the

Long COVID Programme in NHS England. Very good morning to you both. Welcome to the programme. I'm going to come to you first melissa just to remind everybody listening what is long covid and what are the symptoms so long covid is an illness which develops after a covid infection and the symptoms can be very wide ranging but most people would experience breathlessness and fatigue, and then potentially other symptoms such as headache, muscle pain, joint pain. And those symptoms are, they hang around after the person's got better from the initial COVID illness, and they can last for weeks and weeks. And if they're lasting for more than four weeks after the infection

we ask that people would speak to their GP about those symptoms so that they can be investigated and referred on for more help if needed. People are getting in touch already before I come to you Bernice I just want to read this one out from Julia who says I'm stuck with long Covid after a mild Covid infection over two years ago the days are like groundhog day and it's difficult to see a way forward. Treatment consists mostly of advice about managing symptoms and learning to live with it. I used to have two jobs,

go to the gym and enjoy cycling and walking. I can do none of these. There's a hidden pandemic of people, mostly women like me who are living a half life. Actually, before I go to Benita, Melissa, I mean, you must come across stories like that all the time and it's painful just reading out the message it is painful and and that story completely resonates with me um and in people that come to to our clinic many of them have been unwell for

for a long time um on the positive side we've done a lot of learning over the last two years about what strategies are most useful to try and support someone's recovery. And we are starting to see good results with those. Now, for the person that's described their story there, that hasn't been their experience so far, but there is still a lot of potential to get recovery. So a quarter of people who come to our clinic are reporting that they are fully recovered now and a third are improving. Another third are still stuck with really difficult symptoms but we want to keep trying

and we want people to keep getting seen by their GP surgery and referred on for help if that's appropriate. And like I say, we've got some important research going on in this field. More research is needed. We're starting to learn more and more about what works. Benita, you have a daughter with long Covid. What's that like day to day? So my daughter was 10 years old when she got ill. She was a perfectly healthy, happy child with no underlying health conditions, had a mild illness in January 2021 and just didn't recover. The following year was absolutely devastating, not just for her life, but for our family, and impacted us in every

possible way. I'm an NHS consultant, I, you know, I struggle to recognise that it was long COVID. So I mean, I think it's important to say that maybe people don't join the dots. But after a few months, when she hadn't recovered, we sought help we was we were seen quickly by paediatrics um they were they were brilliant um but once all her tests came back negative she was referred into a chronic fatigue service now she was completely debilitated she was essentially housebound for a year she needed a wheelchair for distance she had a myriad of other symptoms. And the only thing on offer was physio. And I sort of didn't accept that as an answer. I thought she's seriously ill. And so I went on a bit of an international search for answers, connected with the most incredible researchers from all around the world and ended up going abroad to seek help.

And we went to Germany and she had some specific, very specialized research blood tests done that showed under a fluorescent microscope that her blood was very sticky and her clotting was abnormal. And so she was started on some medications um which within a few weeks started to make a difference and then over the course of about eight months i would say she made an 80 percent recovery and is now back at school full-time which has been incredible which is really really heartening to hear but you were able to do that Benita because you're a specialist you know you work

within the NHS you're a respiratory specialist you also have the capacity to be able to as well as the knowledge the capacity to be able to go internationally to try and get help for your daughter. I want you to talk to each other actually Melissa tell Benita why she had to go abroad to try and get help why was this this a bit not available within the uk and i think that's because what's being um tested in germany is still in a sense at the research stages so they they have some theories that they're investigating and they've got some blood tests that they're looking at and they're trying out different treatment approaches which often rely on blood thinning medicines, anti-plotting medicines. We don't yet have those tested in a proper clinical trial and that means that at this point it would not be safe to roll

that out in a wide way across the NHS. It's really important that the treatments we use in people are safe and that we have the right evidence to justify their use. The good news is we are looking at some of these strategies in the clinical trial at the moment. There's a study called Stimulate ICP, which is looking at the role of blood thinners, anticoagulation, as we call it, in adults with long COVID. So we will start getting answers on some of these questions. But like I say, getting that evidence base for safety is really important. And I think the other side that's worth explaining is that a lot of our adult patients have also traveled abroad to try and access other treatments. And there are a large number of

people who've had that same treatment who haven't got better um and i think that's really important that we explain that to our patients we're very open we like we want to talk to them about their plans for trying to access other treatments so that we can talk about the advantages and disadvantages and what the actual evidence is looking like at the moment and at at the moment, in our adult patients, we are seeing better outcomes with the therapy approaches, which Benita mentioned, and are seeing steady progress in a large number of people with those approaches,

and we know that they are safe. So we would urge against people travelling abroad for these other treatments at the moment. I think they're not yet ready to roll out into clinical practice. Yeah, I agree with Melissa. I am not in any way advocating that people go abroad for experimental treatment. That isn't proven. What I'm advocating for is more biomedical research.

COVID is the most researched illness in history now with more than 250,000 research publications. We know an awful lot about what it does to the body. We know that it's a vascular disease. That's why it affects every organ in the body. And at the moment, the NHS is set up around single organs. So I'm a lung specialist. But if you've got a heart and a brain and a gut and a lung problem, you end up going around different clinics, seeing lots of people who may or may not know about long COVID and aren't prescribing treatments. What I'm advocating for is that we move towards a risk benefit discussion with patients. We say we know that antihistamines help some people,

let's try it, they're low risk. They don't have many side effects. And there is a sort of school of thought that doing nothing is okay and leaving people debilitated, unable to work, leave the house and not try any treatment because there isn't an evidence base is okay. And I disagree. I think there is harm in doing nothing. Melissa, is that the case? As I said in my intro my intro you know there's a feeling that it may have been deprioritized? So absolutely hasn't been deprioritized so the funding is completely stable for the 90 adult post-covid services for the next financial year I completely agree and for the pediatric hubs as well the children's hubs so there's 14 of those I completely agree with Benita that doing

nothing is absolutely not an option. I agree that it would be wrong for someone with long COVID to go off to lots of different clinics. And the key goal of the post COVID services is that we bring the right specialists around the person so that they don't have to go to lots of different appointments and that we can all learn together. And that has been, you know, one of the success stories of the pathway. But I do think we've got to get the quality evidence. And I completely agree with Benita, trying to continue to prioritise research into this area. But the post-COVID services, the long COVID clinics, they're not, they're definitely not doing nothing. And I do want to speak again about some of the really good outcomes we're seeing and encourage people to seek help.

Yeah, just because we're getting quite a few messages on this. Someone has said, my sister has had long COVID since she's had COVID in March 2020. She cannot work. She still suffers many symptoms. She can't get on any research trials. As they say, she's had it for too long. What would you say to that person? What should they do? Should they go back to their GP? So I think she should be under the care of a long COVID clinic.

In terms of accessing research, she's right that it's not always easy for people to get onto the trials that they want to. But the NIHR website does give some more information about the trials that are recruiting at the moment. And I think it's about focusing on some of the strategies that we know are working whilst we wait for more clear answers and potentially further treatments. But Benita and I know that with complex medical illness, medicines sometimes only have a rather small role in solving the problem. And the other strategies are often just as important or even more important. Do you have some good news stories though? So we've got plenty of good news stories in terms of we're starting to see the reports from the long COVID rehab teams about the outcomes that they're seeing in patients.

There was a lovely news piece from the lead service just recently. And I think they're documenting good levels of physical recovery and return to work, typically in at least half of the patients that they're supporting. The return to work is a really important thing because long COVID is affecting people typically in their 40s, where they're really trying to leave busy working and family lives.

And we really need to start measuring the benefit of the care we're providing at the moment as accurately as possible so that we can learn efficiently across the system about how we can continue to improve the offer. I'm keen to get a couple more of these messages in we're getting. I'm a doctor, says Rachel, myself, and was fit and active. I've been off work with long COVID for over a year and still haven't been referred to a health clinic in East London. I just want to get my life back.

I spend most of my life in bed or just sitting on the sofa in pain and unable to think straight. My poor partner is doing a grossly unfair amount of housework and childcare. I feel forgotten and invisible, a useless shadow of my former self. Benita, one of the other conditions you've noticed in young children with long COVID is something called PANS. Tell us about that. What is that? Yeah, so just to come back on Melissa very quickly, that rehab does have a place, but it can be quite dangerous for some people who have exercise-induced worsening of their symptoms. And we've known about this for years with ME-CFS patients, where exercise has made them worse, and rehab has to be done by specialists in a very

careful way so just wanted to say that. In children there is a condition called PANS it's called paediatric acute neuropsychiatric syndrome meaning in children happens very quickly affects the brain and can create almost overnight very dramatic behavioural changes which can manifest as OCD, obsessional behaviors, tics, they can regress, they can develop cognitive functions they can't read, etc. Very distressing for families. There's very poor awareness of this amongst many healthcare professionals and I think getting the diagnosis made quickly and families being supported can make an enormous amount of difference. There is a subset of this that can actually respond to antibiotic therapy.

It's called PANDAS and it's caused by streptococcal infection. And about a guesstimate is that, you know, maybe a fifth, a quarter of the long COVID support group parents report these neuropsychiatric problems in their children, often being labelled as anxiety, people not joining the dots, and it's really distressing for families. It's difficult to know though, isn't it? Because the children, mental health was impacted as a result of staying at home under restrictions as well, wasn't it? It was, but that hasn't been the case at least for 12 months and we're seeing new reports of these in the support groups as well another message um from jude in birmingham i have had long covid for 10 months i'm 48 lost my job in november and can't work now i have a family to support i've been offered

antidepressants by my gp that's it. That is it. Melissa, the messages we're getting are the same. It feels like people just don't know what to do. They're at a loss. Their lives have completely changed. And what advice would you give to all those people who've messaged into the programme today? So if they've been unwell for more than four weeks after COVID, they should speak to their GP surgery team and they can be referred to post-COVID services, which are available across England with 90 services available now. Please, can they have that conversation with their GP? They should be being referred. And in terms of the treatment approaches, as Benita said, the rehabilitation in long COVID is not simply an exercise programme. It's about managing all the different elements of long COVID, somebody's mental health, managing the fatigue, which can be very disabling, the breathlessness, managing pain, all of those aspects.

And people really do benefit from proper support with that. And Benita, how is your daughter doing now? She's doing brilliantly. She started high school in September. She's back full time and having been incapacitated and missed nearly two years of school with lockdowns and everything. I can't tell you how grateful I am to the curious and brave doctors in Germany who were willing to treat her. And what I'm calling for is research, rapid world, sorry, rapid real world studies, education for healthcare practitioners, the move towards treatment rather than, you know, saying it's

too risky and prevention. We need to clean up the air and stop more people getting really, really sick with long COVID. Ventilation in hospitals, schools, public buildings, please. Benita Cain, Dr. Benita Cain and Dr. Melissa Heitman, thank you both for joining me

to talk about that. I'm sure we will come back to it at some point in the future as well on the programme because lots of you have been getting in touch about living with long COVID yourselves. Helen has messaged to say thank you for highlighting long COVID today. lots of you have been getting in touch about living with long covid yourselves helen has

messaged to say thank you for highlighting long covid today um the feature needs to better reflect the desperation that most long haulers feel many of us were first ill in the early weeks of 2020 and still every time i speak to a medical professional i have to rapidly assess their level of skepticism it's depressing and demeaning um 84844 is the number to text on anything you're hearing on the program today now some outfits grab all the attention think lady gaga's meat dress madonna's cone bra or jlo in her plunge neck green versace number well monday night saw the return of the itv dating show Love Island, but it was the outfit worn by the new host Maya Jamet that got everyone talking. It was sexy

and red. You might be surprised to hear it was crocheted. And the person who made it is the young designer, Sierra Nogueira, who joins me now. Sierra, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to have you. We need to get into this because that outfit was incredible. Describe your design for our listeners if they haven't seen it. My design was different. It had intricate stitches. It was a red cord and it was quite eye-capturing when she wore it um on love island um and i understand you only had a matter of hours to make the outfit tell me tell me how it all came

about so the story is i was on holiday in berlin and i got a message saying they needed the cohort the next day. And I got my flight back in at midnight on Friday and made the cohort that night, stayed up all night, got like one hour sleep and then delivered it at like 11 a.m. the next day. And they flew to South Africa about a couple of hours after that. Amazing. Did you did you consult Maya to say this is what i'm making you or did you just know i mean i mean she looks insane in it i mean it's just incredible it's not just the out it's the body that's wearing the outfit that brings it to life obviously did you consult her or did you think this is this is a red crochet this is going to be they had an idea what they wanted her stylist wanted had an idea what she wanted but um I literally had one chance to make it I couldn't get it wrong and whether they used it or not

was up to them but I did my part and I was like look I'm gonna wait and see what they think and then you didn't have to wait very long because the minute that was everywhere I mean it's everywhere the outfit her wearing it has just blown up how was it seeing it on tv and online and everywhere else and us talking about it on woman's hour honestly it was absolutely shocking she has definitely like um gained uh brought me more exposure to my business it's incredible what she's done and I think it's absolutely amazing that she chose a smaller brand and like highlighted like black women in a way absolutely and how did you get into crocheting so when I was younger

actually um I had a compulsory class that I hated crochet it was quite basic but at the end of lockdown I just picked it back up and, I never stopped and started sharing it. And yeah. Well, what's the satisfaction? My auntie tried to get me into crocheting when I was 16, but it didn't work. With someone as fidgety as me, I couldn't sit still long enough. But what was it that got you into it? What's the satisfaction of crochet?

Firstly, it's actually quite coming and it's really good for mental health um so it was that part of it like before bed instead of going on my phone and like seeing everything I could just crochet and that would help me sleep so much faster so it's it has a lot of benefits so that alone was already like getting me to do it but it also allowed me to express myself I quite enjoy design and before I was a scientist so it was very different from what I was doing so it was quite a good outlet at the time. What were you doing before? So I have a degree in chemistry so I was doing some lab work and yeah that's where I started. Tell me you're wearing your very sexy crocheted outfits under that lab coat? Definitely not. I wish though. How do you come up with your designs because you don't really think of sexy and crochet in the same sentence?

Yeah I think it's genuinely something that's normally looked at as old and for a lot of fabrics you see them they can make anything. And I was thinking, why not with crochet? So I just start and think, what would I wear? What would I want to wear to a beach? What would I want to wear to this? And I start without a drawing and I see where it ends because it's quite like a complex art. So sometimes you try to make something and you end up with something completely different. So I just start without knowing where I'm going to finish. Do you ever get frustrated or tangled up or you know kind of

lost in it? Oh definitely 100% most of the time when it gets frustrating because I don't have any sort of structure I put it to the side and start something else and then go back to it a couple weeks later and yeah turn it into something else. So come on then convince me someone who hasn't picked up a crochet stick and it is just one, isn't it? Since the mid nineties, convince me that I should do it again. Firstly, it's becoming cool again

and you can be part of a really big community. Most yarn shops have communities around them. You can go meet some new people if you're feeling lonely. It's great for mental health, quite relaxing. And yeah, it's just great to have a new hobby and how's business been since monday's program absolutely amazing um i can't genuinely thank her enough because um people are definitely more interested and my sales have shot up by 300 which is absolutely incredible and clicks on my website have been more than a thousand percent website have been more than a thousand percent

there's been more than a thousand percent increase so yeah I can't complain so you're going to be crocheting non-stop then I do design some other stuff because I can't sustain I can't keep it up but I do I am going to be crocheting for for the foreseeable foreseeable future all thanks to my agenda like say, a beautiful black presenter highlighting another black woman's business, really important. Yes, definitely. And also grateful of Ireland because it shows

that they're starting to take the more sustainable route. Sure. Because I guess if you know who made it, you know there's not been any sort of foul play like sweatshops, anything in the production of the clothing, which is quite a great thing to highlight on national TV. Sierra, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and well done once again,

because that outfit is amazing. Your outfits were amazing. I've had a look. Thank you so much for speaking to us about crocheting this morning. Lots of you getting in touch about your own crafty experiences. Hiya, my grandma heard your show this morning

and today I'm wearing the diamond jumper she knitted for me. She got the 1960s pattern from a friend at a knit and natter class run by Revolve Recycle in Glasgow. Love this. Last year I found some light woolen material from Liberty in a drawer. My daughter had bought it when she worked there during

a gap year over 30 years ago. I decided to make it into a dress for her but on unfolding the material, found it peppered with a myriad of moth holes. Oh no! Fortunately, there was more material than I needed for the dress pattern, so over a long four hours, I identified each moth hole and managed to cut out all the pieces. This is dedication to craft. I finished the dress last weekend and have now sent it to my daughter.

Now in my 80s, it's the most difficult dress I've ever made. Fingers and eyes no longer work as well as they used to. But you did it! and I've now sent it to my daughter. Now in my 80s, it's the most difficult dress I've ever made. Fingers and eyes no longer work as well as they used to. But you did it. You're an inspiration to work around the moth holes. You see, that's where my grandma was one step ahead. Her clothes were amazing. She was a brilliant seamstress,

but everything did smell of mothballs. Now, very excited about my next item. It's been 25 years since Goodness Gracious Me landed on our television screens on BBC Two. It was the first comedy sketch show conceived, written and performed by British Asians. The show had an award winning run on the radio, winning a Sony Gold Award for comedy. And then it was transferred to BBC Two. It went on for another three seasons and was nominated for a BAFTA in 1999. And for a generation of us, it changed the world. The series poked fun at British and Indian stereotypes

and at the tensions between Asian culture and modern British life. One of the show's most iconic sketches, Going for an English, features a group of Asians going out for an English meal and mispronouncing quite a few things on the menu. Gambit, yeah? Bombay is the restaurant capital of India. So how come every Friday night we end up here, eh? Because that's what you do, innit?

You go out, you get tanked up on last season, you go for an English. I mean, it wouldn't be a Friday night if we didn't go for an English, innit? it wouldn't be a Friday night if we didn't go for an English. Anyway, I love English food, yeah. Get off. You just fancy the waiters, innit? Okay, Jams.

All right, first up, we'll have 10... No, 12. 12 bread rolls. And bring some of that fancy stuff. What's that? Butter. Oh, butter, yeah, yeah. Absolutely brilliant. Well, joining me now are the two women from the Goodness Gracious Me ensemble,

Meera Sayal, CBE, and Nina Wadia, OBE. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much, Anita. It's so good to have you here. I'm going to take you right back to when you first got together and started Goodness Gracious Me. How old were you and what stage of your lives and careers were you at? Let's start with either of you. Mira, let's come to you. Oh, wow. I was, I think, in my early 30s. I was a mum. I had a two-year-old, I think, at the time.

I'd been a jobbing actress, done a lot of theatre, hardly any television. So this was a big deal. The one thing I had done was The Real McCoy, which was quite a stepping stone in terms of doing comedy and a non-white presence in the comedy scene. But before that, yeah, my television and comedy profile was pretty small actually. And how about you Nina? So I was in my late 20s and I hadn't done any television so again like you Mira you know a theatre girl and so this was a real learning of being on this show. I was absolutely terrified, but also I've never laughed as much in any other show. I mean, absolute, I've said it was,

it shifted everything for a generation of us who watched it. It was finally we've arrived. We've always known we're cool and funny, but now the world can see. Did you know you were creating magic when you got together? I know it started in radio first, but did you get together and think, we're doing something really different here?

Well, I mean, for me, I'll be honest, I genuinely thought as long as everyone in the Indian community laughs, I'm quite happy about it. That's actually how I felt. I was that naive yeah I don't think you were naive I think that's actually the spirit we did it in the magic was meeting your tribe I can't tell you it felt like coming home because for years we'd all grown up in our little pockets sniggering at things behind our hands in corners going is

anyone else finding this funny we've got plastic on the sofa. No, just me. Okay. And then suddenly you're in a group of people that go, no, I get you. I've been laughing at this too. Do you think anybody else will get it? We didn't know. But the important thing for us was we knew it was something new and unique. It was the generation that was coming to fruition and it might have sunk without a trace but it was authentic and I think that's what people picked up on. And so how did it work I'm interested and obviously we're on Woman's Down we've got the two of you what was the relationship like working with everybody in that group and what was it like being the two women in that gang? Well we were very naughty weren't we Mira really we we got away with a lot and and we laughed a lot and it was

it was it was just fun I mean Mira wrote a lot of the kind of um the girls sketches the girl stuff together and so it was always exciting to see what she'd bring in and we just have fun creating these women and enjoying them and um yeah I we laughed I just remember laughing so much I don't actually remember recording much to be honest you feel like work did it no I think we're very aware that um you know we wanted there to be a strong female presence um in the show because you know if Asians were invisible at that point then Asian women were even more invisible. People just didn't think of us as having a sense of humour or irony or being self-aware. You know, we were the people that mended your broken bones in hospitals or served you in restaurants or in shops. We weren't the

funny people. So although now we look back and see a lot was riding on it, I think we just went, hang on, what about all the women we grew up with? We have to represent them. Our aunties, our mothers, our sisters, those funny, strong women that never get to say anything or tell the jokes. We can do it now. Yeah, what you did brilliantly was you were able to sort of laugh at the perception of being South Asian in Britain, but also being able to laugh at ourselves as well. And the two Indian, competitive Indian mothers really stand out. Yeah, I mean, I've got to tell you, there's a very special story behind that. So around the time that we'd done the first series, I was doing a radio that was on location.

It was a very unusual project with Felicity Montague and Tony Slattery. And we were recording somewhere in Hampstead and George Michael walked in into this cafe. And I remember thinking, Oh my, I was such a Wham fan and massive George Michael fan. And I wanted to say hello to him, but right at the end, I lost my nerve and he actually came up to our table as he was leaving. And he went, you're Nina from Goodness Grac goodness gracious me and i went uh what what yes i am and he went well you're an honorary greek can i just say because that competitive mother that's

my mother yeah i'm sorry we can we take that take a moment that george michael what should but you're right the universality of those characters yeah and that is and that comes into how you you portrayed them and those that's why they just resonated did you ever expect it to become the huge success that it did when did you or when did you first realize oh we are really tapped into something here gosh go on there a slow burn thing wasn't it really i suppose the moment i knew it was huge when we did our live tour, actually, and we were playing these massive arenas and you go out on stage and when people are actually saying the sketch along with you, you know that you've created something that has touched a lot

of people. But I think more importantly, I was walking down Wanstead High Street and there was a bunch of school kids behind me and this used to happen a lot. There was kiss my chuddies, kiss my chuddies from behind us. And then I heard one of the little English kids say to his Asian friends, what does chuddies mean? And the Asian kids are telling their underpants, by the way, you can now use it in Scrabble. It's an official word in the Oxford English dictionary anyway. And I thought, wow, that we've done something.

That kid, that Asian kid is standing a bit tall, he feels cool. Somebody is asking him about his cultural viewpoint. We used to be the butt of the jokes and now we're telling them. And that's great. I think we should hear a bit of that sketch, actually. We've got a clip. Let's hear the two Indian aunties. Oh, hello. Fancy seeing you here. Hello, yes. I don't usually shop here. No, my son normally drives me to the West End. So does mine. And he pays for my shopping.

Well, the only reason I'm here is, you see, I have to go to mother care. My son has provided me with another grandchild. What about your son? Still firing blanks? Actually, my son is very fertile. Oh, really? Oh, yes, really. He went to the clinic to get his sperm counted. Oh, and what did they find? They're still counting.

Well, you've heard of the Asian population crisis? My son, working from home. And if you wish to enquire about his danda, it's enormous. Amazing. Just brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. But then but then in 2001 the show stopped what happened really good question it came as a shock to all of us um i don't know that you know we were doing so well we'd won awards uh bbt was getting loads of diversity brownie points off the back of it you'd think but um it was a bit of a shock decision. According to our producer, he went in to talk to the new commissioning editor

about the next series and was just told, I don't think we'll do any more. And that was it, really. And there's been nothing like it since, I would say. What do you think, Nina? No, I mean, we get asked a lot. I'm sure Mira does as well. Any time I go somewhere, are you all doing any Goodness, Grace, Me? Are you bringing it back? You know, because no one's felt like there's anything that's had that kind of impact. And what's really amazing is that even the younger generations that we meet, their parents have sort of obviously sat them down and gone, you've got to watch this. So there's these new generations of kids who are just like,

oh, we'd like to do something like that. I mean, I've been approached by so many people who, whether they're on YouTube trying to do comedy or whether they just want to get a sitcom off the ground and they'll get in touch with me via Instagram or something, going, we've written this sketch. Could you give us your opinion? Do you think this would be good? Or can you be in it? Can you play my mum in it or something going, we've written this sketch. Could you give us your opinion? Do you think this would be good?

Can you be in it? Can you play my mom in it or something? And so there is a thirst out there for it. And for it to keep going this far long, it begs the question, well, two things. One, yes, it's fantastic that it's still popular, but should it be in terms of the things that we were talking about? Have things not moved on enough as well? There's a thirst for stories, isn't there? And I suppose people often say, oh, it was so ahead of its time, but I feel like it was so of its time as well.

And that both of you, I mean, you have gone on, you've done amazing things. Both of you act and you present and you do write and all of that. And, you know, you've done amazing work. But also you particularly sell the stories of South Asian women. Mira, you've got a Radio 4 podcast in its second season, Gossip and Goddesses. And Nina, you've just been in a British Indian film called Core, celebrating a young British Sikh woman. How do you, is it important for you to be able to straddle both working in the mainstream, telling universal stories, but also telling specific stories?

And also how much choice do you have in that, Nina? It is a struggle. You know, when you've kind of got a body of work and sometimes you feel like you get a self-tape that you need to do or an audition that you need to do where you think, if you've seen my work over the last 35 years you'd know I could do this in my sleep but I still have to audition for those particular things that's frustrating that is very frustrating because you kind of go you've seen your you know white peers who don't need to do that they just get offered a series or, you know, a lead in something.

And you think, why is this still happening to me? You know, at this point, why is it still happening? Will we get more Goodness Gracious Me, Mira? We keep getting asked. I think there's such an appetite for it. I mean, the reaction on social media when we announced we were celebrating 25 years. There was so much love out there. We're going to start the campaign right now.

We've run out of time. Mira and Nina, I could talk to you all day. Thank you so much. I'm also going to end on a happy note. Only two more sleeps till Happy Valley. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. My name is Jonathan Myerson,

and two years ago we produced Nuremberg, a dramatised reconstruction of the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. Their crimes were indisputable, but one mystery remained. How did this group of unremarkable men come to rule all of Germany? Our new podcast, Nazis, The Road to Power, unravels this improbable story in 16 episodes, starring Tom Mothersdale, Derek Jacoby, Alexander Vlahos, Toby Stephens, and Laura Donnelly. It remains a lesson for us all. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

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