Woman's Hour - Michelle Yeoh, Breastfeeding and depression, Sandi Toksvig and Catherine Mayer

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Oscar-winning Michelle Yeoh’s career has spanned four decades. Starting out as a martial arts actor, she became a key figure in the Hong Kong action scene. But it was her role in James Bond film Tomorrow Never Dies that catapulted her into Hollywood. She's since starred in many hits including Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and the multi-Oscar winning movie - including for her own performance - Everything Everywhere all At Once. Now, she’s in the film adaptation of the musical Wicked. She joins Nuala McGovern live in the studio to discuss it.The Women's Equality Party voted to dissolve the organisation at a special conference this weekend. The political party was launched in 2015 to campaign for gender equality. Citing financial challenges and a changed political landscape, the leadership chose to recommend members vote to close down the party. In an exclusive interview, the two party co-founders - Catherine Mayer and Sandi Toksvig - join Nuala. In a recent article, the author and writer Alice Vincent asks: Why does nobody speak about post-breastfeeding depression? This was something she experienced after she stopped breastfeeding her son. Alice joins Nuala to discuss her experience of stopping breastfeeding along with Hilda Beauchamp, perinatal and infant mental health lead at the Institute of Health Visiting, and a midwife and health visitor by background.Es Devlin is the artist and stage designer responsible for some of the most iconic moments in recent popular culture. Her innovative staging is currently on display at the National Theatre's The Lehman Trilogy at the Gillian Lynne Theatre and her new work, Face to Face, is coming soon to Somerset House. She joins Nuala to discuss her career. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, one of today's guests was a junior champion in squash, then an aspiring ballerina, became Miss Malaysia and a Bond girl, and now is an Oscar winner for everything, everywhere, all at once. Yeah, you may have guessed. It's Michelle Yeoh.

She's now starring in a new film, Wicked. She's coming up in just a moment right here in our studio. Also today, the star power continues. We have the artist and stage designer, Es Devlin. Her work is prolific and brilliant. Think Beyoncé's Reformation tour.

Think U2's Sphere in Vegas. The Lehman Trilogy in the West End at the moment. She also has a new exhibition at Somerset House in London, Face to Face, 50 Encounters with Strangers. We have a lot to talk about that is coming up this hour. We'll also be hearing about post-breastfeeding depression. Maybe this is something you experienced even if you stopped breastfeeding

when you wanted to. If it has been your experience, the number to text is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. Also, Sandy Toksvig and Catherine Meyer,

the founders of the Women's Equality Party, they'll be here on why their members voted yesterday to shut that party down. But, let me begin. Oscar-winning Michelle Yeoh's career has spanned four decades, starting out as a martial arts actor.

She became a key figure in the Hong Kong action scene, but it was her role in the James Bond film, Tomorrow Never Dies, that catapulted her into Hollywood. It's a good word to use because you often catapult across the screen for us as well. And since then Michelle has starred in many hits,

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Members of a Geisha, and a multi-Oscar winning movie, including her own performance, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. So now her latest is brand new, highly anticipated film adaptation of the musical Wicked. I should say titled Part One. There will be more coming. And she plays the character of Madame Morrible, the headmistress and high witch of Shiz University. You are so welcome to Woman's Hour.

Good morning, Nuala, and thank you for this amazing welcome. Well, Wicked, it has been on stage for two decades, but this is the first representation on film. I believe you hadn't actually heard the story before. I have to confess, neither had I until I went to your film last week. But I was sitting beside somebody who'd gone to see the stage adaptation 12 times. So there is this hunger for this film. What was your experience like?

Well, first of all, I was very privileged and honored that John Chu, who I had worked with and Crazy Rich Asians, called me and said, please read the script. I would love for you to play the character Madame Morrible. And at that point, like you, I had not seen the musical on Broadway or anywhere. Yes. So then I read it and I called him back and said, John, darling, it's a musical. Right. And, you know, I don't sing. Right. I read it and I called him back and said, John, darling, it's a musical, right?

And, you know, I don't sing, right? And he's like, nah, don't worry about it. You'll be fine. And he could have thrown a phone book at me and I would have said yes to him because he's truly such a talent. He's such an amazing storyteller. And so I went off to New York and saw it in New York, came to London, saw it in London. And I guess I could understand why it's gone on for 20 years and still going strong. And why from different ages, they keep going back to see this story, because it is very relatable on many different levels. And you think, well, it's a land of Oz. It's Munchkinland. How do you relate to that? But if you listen to the lyrics in Defying Gravity, it talks about

not allowing someone to limit you and what you can do and defy and find who you are. So that whole journey of discovery and acceptance, not just by other people around you, you know how you always seek for approval or love, but most important by yourself initially to find that journey and then to be able to choose for yourself what is the right path for you. You know, the way you speak about that, it resonates for me about what I've heard about your life. True, I guess. Because you've had this amazing path and martial arts was a spin-off, right? Let's talk about the beginning because you were destined to become a same kind of passion and love to little kids, little girls and boys to be able to feel what I did. And so I came here to England. I went to the Hammond School of Dance in Chester. Because at that point, I think my dad was like, maybe you're a little young to be in London. So it would be much better. And I think that was a great choice to help me. Because I come from Malaysia, and we are

a very multiracial society. So we've always grown up with different religions, culture, you know, celebrating our differences and not even noticing that we are different, that we're supposed to be. Yes, I understand. Yeah. So coming here was fantastic because, you know, there's this young girl from a small city in Malaysia called Ipoh. And then being in London on my own, but fortunately, we had a lot of family and friends here. And you were going on this path to become a ballerina. But the fact that you've moved into acting and films came because you had what you called a shattered mirror moment,

this huge disappointment when an injury meant that you would not be a ballerina. And you got that news as a young woman. And I'm wondering, we talk about that path and finding yourself. How did you regroup and find that path that took you to becoming the first Asian woman to win the Academy Award for Best Actress in a Leading Role? I think I'm very blessed in my life that important key people come into my way and open doors and, you know, help you figure out. It's when one door shuts, a window or another door can be open, but you have to be open to it yourself.

And I had that shattering glass moment. It was like literally the mirror just go because the specialist basically said to me, you can't do this kind of dancing from nine till five because your back will just not be able to take it. And but I was very blessed because Mrs. Hammond, the principal of the school, and I remember her so clearly in my head. She goes like, darling, it's OK. It's all right, because, you know, there's so many paths to dance, to ballet. There's choreography, there's history, there's this, there's that. And she really helped me to find the Kruen Alsager College of Higher Education, where they did a degree in dance. So I was, my horizon was no longer just ballet but into other things that could help. But was that

difficult to make that transition? Yes and no. Difficult was because I loved being in the dance the whole time. Difficult because I had to, that was relegated to a more minor part of it. And then now it came back to history, to more books and studying and being, you know, finding the balance between the two. But choreography was something very interesting that I managed to learn because when I was doing ballet, we were the students. We were the little minions.

We learned, we watched, we followed. But here you were taught to be the leader, to be creative, and not to be afraid to have a voice that has... So I learned about contemporary dance and all that. You know, with ballet, it's very structured. Everything is precise. But with contemporary, there's no limits or boundaries. And then how did martial arts come into your life? When I started my second film in Hong Kong, martial arts came.

Well, I was given the opportunity to go to Hong Kong to do a commercial. And in that commercial, my first person that I ever worked with was Jackie Chan. I know. You know, start at the top, Michelle, right that I ever worked with was Jackie Chan. I know. You know, start at the top, Michelle, right? I don't know how it happened. And then I was very fortunate because the company, the production company, D&B, they were fairly new in the business in Hong Kong. And so they signed me up as an actress. And in the first movie, it was in Hong Kong in the heydays, in the 80s, action movies, comedies were the box office, you know, the blockbusters. And so I was in an action film, but I was doing the damsel in distress.

You know, we were the women that needed to be rescued. And it was really the men's world because they were the protectors. They were the protectors. They were the gallant heroes. I looked at the whole action sequences and I thought, that's very similar to dance. It's all choreography. You know, you choreograph it and then you perform, execute it.

And it's very much like dancing. It's to a rhythm with a partner or a few partners. And that's how you make this whole thing work. So I bravely asked if, you know, it's possible that I could. And fortunately, one of the wives of the producers was like, and she was a great editor in her own right, says, yeah, you know, you bring Michelle. She's not a local girl, yet you fit her in the local box and do the same things. Why don't you open the box and let her try? Give it a go. Yeah. And it fails. Put her back in the box again. But you wouldn't go back in the box. I guess it's just something that my parents always taught me is like, believe in who you want to be, you know, be bold and take, yes, risks, right?

Because if you don't try, you've already failed. That's the thing, I think, that the risk taking is wonderful. And sometimes, this is women's era, they talk about women being risk averse at times compared to men. That's not you. That's not you. That's not me. And I don't think it should be anyone. I don't think, you know, men are the risk takers and women are the safe ones.

I mean, what is a risk? Going out, open the door, go on the roads, it's a risk because unfortunately we advocate very strongly for road safety. So, you know, we understand what are the risks on the road. But life is about new beginnings, new adventures. You could call it a risk, but you can minimize the dangers or, you know, the risk factors. I think that's where you discover things about yourself and give yourself new opportunities. With martial arts, you know, I saw a story in the papers this morning that I just like your thoughts on.

This was a study done at Bournemouth University. And one of the quotes is men wearing wigs and using brown makeup are depriving black women and members of other ethnic groups of top stunt roles in movies. This is according to a new study that's just out today. And they say, despite an increase in female action roles in movies, women are still struggling to get into the core stunt teams. Yeah, I think that is very true, but not exactly true right now. Because in the past, there used to be not so many women in action roles. But you can see in this last decade, it's changed tremendously.

And you've amazing. I mean, Sigourney Weaver was one of my heroines when she did. And Demi Moore as well. So there were many women who were in these action roles. But they always somehow deemed it's more unsafe for the stunt work to be done by women. Because, you know, I don't know how that became the weaker sex. And then they discover when a guy tries to pretend to be a woman doing the stunt, it looks like a guy pretending to be a woman doing a stunt.

And it really doesn't work. And the only way that you can make it work is like, what we ask for is equal opportunities. Let us have a go. Like in the past, a woman engineer, nah. It's so much the man's work, nah, you know. And I think this is where we have to push forwards. And that's where women have to exercise their voices and their rights to demand that equal opportunity.

Which is something you have very much been a voice for. I mentioned one of your shattered mirror moments about ballet and having that injury, which of course you went on to do great things. You don't have children. That was not by choice. You called it another shattered mirror moment, which I think is so descriptive.

And I think it's important we hear your voice and your experience after that particular door closed. And I say that's important we hear your voice and your experience after that particular door closed. And I say that as we often hear about infertility struggles and what that entailed, but often with a miracle baby at the end. But that's not your story. No, that was not my story. I wasn't, honestly, not for the lack of trying because I have always and still do love babies. And I have, I'm very blessed. I have six got children. I have always and still do love babies. And I'm very blessed. I have six godchildren. I have nephews and nieces around the world.

But I don't know. You know that maternal instinct is something that's very you. I believe that it's a woman's choice. It's your choice whether you want to have children. And it shouldn't be imposed on you. Just because you're a woman, you should have a child. That should not be the case. But as a very personal thing was I wanted, I always wanted to have children. And when we, when I was married the first time, that was very clear in our path that, you know, this was a

marriage about having children, a next generation and all that. And when the first time it happened, it didn't happen. So I went and did fertility to aid in the process. And I think that that's the worst moment to go through is every month you feel like such a failure because that's... There comes the blood. So it means it hasn't happened. Yeah. And then you go like, why? You know, what did, why is this? And I think at some point you stop blaming yourself and go, it is, you know, there are certain things in your body that doesn't function in a certain way. That's how it is. You just have to let go and move on. And I think you come to a point where you have to stop blaming you.

I think getting to that point of letting go or acceptance, I'm really interested how you reconciled that and how long that took. Sometimes, honestly, I still think about it. Sure. Yeah. You know, I'm 62. Of course, I'm not going to have a baby right now. Although we've done some stories on women's hair. But the thing is, you know, like we just had a grandchild on the first day of January.

I saw that. Congratulations. Thank you. So, you know, that makes the miracles. Then you feel you're still very, very blessed because you do have a baby in your life. I think it took a long time because that also maybe would be the main factor that broke up my first marriage. That is heartbreaking. Yeah, because but you also have to understand, I think these are conversations that you really have to have with yourself and be able to look ahead and think, yes, we love each other very much now. But in 10 years or 20 years, I still can't give him the family that he craves for. And you have to be fair. You know, that's why this dialogue between a couple is so

important. Like if one wants and the other doesn't, this is something you have to face right at the beginning. Because along the way, there will be a lot of, you know, hurt and difficult times. Yes. And so I think it was very brave on our path to admit. Definitely. To say, OK, let's not drag this out because that's what we are doing. Because, you know, we tried for. He went on to have children. Oh, yeah.

And I believe you're a godmother to. No, I'm godmother to his eldest. Yes. My beautiful D, D.D. Poon. And thank you for sharing all that because it's obviously very personal, but I think it might be helpful to some people

that are getting news similar to what you got back then or maybe went through it a while ago. But I do want to end on congratulations, you got married last year. I mean, you got an Oscar as well. We can just throw that into the mix.

Everything happened one year. Everything, everything you got an Oscar as well. We can just throw that into the mix. Everything happened one year. Everything everywhere all at once. I know. I'm so blessed. I mean, we've been, John and I have been together for like 20 years. And bless him, he's been so patient because he proposed the first,

within the first few months we were together. That's what I thought. I was like, didn't I read somewhere that you were engaged after about a year? And I said yes. Yes. And then, you know, life, so many things happen. And we said, okay, if we do get married, it has to be small. It has to be intimate.

And by the time we sit down and go, I have a huge family. And by the time you go like, no, no, no, no, let's think about this. And in fact, we got married, the registry was in Geneva. And the process of applying for a license, it's a long process. And we started it even before Everything Everywhere all at once. So, and then suddenly, just before the Oscars as well, during that whole January, February, March campaign, we received a letter saying,

okay, we've processed it, you've passed it, and it's 27th of July this year. And we go like... So if you say, and Jean was so sweet, he was like, okay, how about we postpone it? Because he knew I was... I love it, postp he knew I was filming here in London for Wicked.

I was traveling back and forth to New York, LA, Santa Barbara for everything, everywhere, all at once. So he said, why don't we do it the next year? And I thought, but once you say no to the date, you have to reapply. Oh, God, no. And I go like, no, you know, let's do it. It's we're fortunate that we are given a date. Why do you say no to a blessing? So we said yes.

And then I won the Oscars. And then we're like, oh, my God. OK. Oh, yeah. Then we have to finish filming Wicked. And then went and got married. Oh, my God. What a year.

What an incredible year. And a lovely granddaughter that came along as well. Well, I know Jean is with you here today as well. So congratulations on all the blessings. And thank you so much for coming in studio. Enjoy. Enjoy the joy that's about to come with Wicked as well as it has its premiere. And I know you're heading off to the premiere tonight in the Royal Festival Hall.

Have an absolute blast. Thank you. And come back and see us again soon. I will. Thank you for having me, Nuala. Michelle, yes, musical, which is now the film adaptation Wicked, part one. There will be a part two. Maybe Michelle will come back and see us then. Now, on to the Women's Equality Party. They voted to dissolve the organisation

at a special conference this weekend. Just last night, actually. The political party launched back in 2015. At the time, the founders said there was a need for a party to campaign for gender equality to benefit all. Citing financial concerns and a changed political landscape,

the leadership chose to recommend members vote to close down the party. Yesterday, they did that indeed. The party's co-founders have just slipped into the seats where Michelle Yeoh was a moment ago. We have Catherine Meyer with us and Sandy Tuxvig. You're both very welcome. Thank you. Good morning.

Well, let me begin with you, Sandy. Your reaction to the vote last night? I think it's absolutely positive. When Catherine and I started the party 10 years ago, there was just the two of us. Now we have a movement of thousands and thousands of people. But you have to be realistic and running a small party in the current climate is not sensible. So we're always proactive and we wanted to close it down sensibly, paying proper redundancy to all our staff and take what we have,

which is an incredible group of women, and move forward in a positive way. It's the end of the party, but not the movement. What's the difference? Well, this is ongoing work and we're actually already meeting up again next weekend. So, you know, the idea that... Not just the two of us. This is more of a... Yes, sorry.

You know, the whole membership. So the idea that this was an end is an end of the party. And it wasn't just financial. It was to do with the change model not working in a polarised world. What does that mean, the change model not working? I'll explain that. But I just also wanted to say the sense of urgency because there's so much to be done. You know, rights and protections for women are actually being rolled back everywhere.

So us clinging to something that worked very well but now wasn't working didn't make sense. What we do have is a movement. And what we are now looking at is how we transition that into other forms of more effective activism. The change model, well, Sandy and I, we basically had a couple of beers that turned out to be very expensive in time and other ways, when we were discussing our impatience with the slowness of change. And we were noticing that UKIP, as it then as that party was then called, was because it was winning votes, the mainstream, instead of always repudiating and pushing back against its ideas, they kept instead making themselves more like UKIP to try and neutralise them. So we thought if we could show feminism was a vote winner, the parties would become more

feminist by accident, as it were. And I have to say, in the 10 years, we've made extraordinary changes. How would you, why don't we underline some of them as you said, Sandy? So really, we were the most successful political party in 2019 in the general election, even though we didn't get a seat. So it's very expensive to stand candidates. We stood five survivors of violence against five existing MPs who had outstanding allegations of sexual impropriety. Four of them stood down and one of them went to prison. We instituted a change up until 2021. For example, you could get into more trouble as an MP for misusing official stationery than you could for misusing a member of your staff.

And we, because of the pressure that we applied, we got the job done. So that would sound to me, and I'm sure lots of the listeners, that you should have continued. You say you are continuing, but what tangible form will that take? Well, as I say, I mean, there are some of this, I'm afraid, you do have to wait and see. Sandy and I are individually involved in quite a lot of projects as well as

looking at new avenues for the movement. But just for example, today, and I'm sorry if I'm accidentally stealing her thunder, in May, we got, or she got, Stacey Hart, a wonderful woman, got elected as a borough councillor in Basingstoke. As a Women's Equality Party candidate. But she is unveiling the Basingstoke Equality Party today. I was just about to ask you what is going to happen to that particular candidate. Well, we also, yeah, I mean, she's a very effective local councillor. We have amazing councillors also in Congleton, for example, Kay Wesley and Susan Mead who are both

Kay is actually also mayor of Congleton. And we will be supporting them and moving forward with them this is not a thing where we will stop but what we won't be worrying about is keeping the lights on. Okay so a lot of it was money? Money would mean, if we'd had, Sandy and I did so much fundraising over the years. And one of our fundraising adventures saw a man offering us a life-changing sum of money in return for dropping the word women. He also came on to Catherine at lunch, which I think was not ideal. Also true. But the point about this is if we had had a lot more money, we might have tried to look for a way of changing and staying within that party structure.

But the point is we didn't and the change model, that thing I was making, like the Tories have gone full fig UKIP now. We used to be able to do really good work with across the mainstream. It's impossible on that end of the spectrum. And they may push back against that characterisation, for example. Well, they may, but they're also, you know, they're woke. The idea of rechristening things as woke that were values that everybody subscribed to, at least paid lip service to. We also probably could have an hour, if not more, about that word woke and its place in politics, be it here or indeed across the pond. We do have to look at well as the media's responsibility in all this. It's incredibly

difficult to get any attention paid to the plight of women whatsoever. If you look at the disproportionate amount of attention paid to the Reform Party, for example, compared even to the Liberal Democrats, I think they had four times as much coverage. I had five MPs and the Liberal Democrats had 72. So Ed Davey was constantly doing stunts. It's incredibly difficult to get any attention paid. And if the way that we get the attention to the incredible issues in, for example, women's health care, in affordable childcare, if that's through activism rather than through trying to stand candidates that we can't really afford in elections, then this is going to be the way forward. And you mentioned money there. Some have raised the issue of the rights of transgender women and how those relate to the rights of women

who are biologically female. It's a topic, as you'll know, that has caused huge amounts of debate. What is or was the stance of your party on that issue? It's interesting because our stance was very clear. We were always an inclusive party and we support. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

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...the right from the beginning for people to determine their own gender. But we also tried very, very hard to make space for all areas of opinion on this. And yesterday, I mean, we're sounding positive, but I have to say yesterday was very emotional. A lot of people, including both of us, cried at various times. You know, this is something. Because, like, this is 10 years of our lives and a lot of energy. It's our baby. And people feel it changed people's lives within the party as well as outside.

So everybody feels ownership. But one of the things that happened was there was one young woman, a member who thought, who suggested that we could continue, but that we needed to be more clear cut. I mean, I think we are clear cut in our values, but we needed to be more clear cut in order to attract people who were on her end of the debate. What was her end of the debate. What was her end of the debate? Very much trans-inclusive, which, as I say, I mean, we have been anyway. But our point there was we have worked so hard not to give in to polarisation in order to make space. I mean, one of the things we did was we ran a version of a citizens' assembly to try and look at whether there was any clash between our policies in terms of being both inclusive but also in terms of things like single-sex spaces and whatever.

I mean, I couldn't be more trans-inclusive, but I don't want to shout at people. I don't want to polarise debate. There's enough of that on social media. What I wanted was to have a space where we could actually still carry on having the discussion. I wanted people who didn't agree with me to feel that there was a space where we could stand and talk to each other. Maybe we could persuade somebody that actually

they've headed down the wrong path. But outlining it then for the listeners, so you mentioned it there, Catherine, the members voted to support gender self ID from the Citizens' Assembly type of citizens. No, not from the Citizens' Assembly. That was already a policy from further back. But policies also within a party can be changed by debate.

And one of the things people have to understand and appreciate is the need for debate. And I suppose what I'm getting to is, and I will just give the specific that the party's leader, Mally Reid, told Pink News in an interview upon election to the role that was 2019, that trans women are women. But the other part was in 2022, the members voting to support gender self-ID, meaning that people can identify as whichever gender they choose without needing a medical diagnosis. I'm wondering after those, though, did you lose members? The really funny thing there is we lost some members, but we also gained members. So we came out net neutral, if not slightly positive. It wasn't the thing that caused us to lose membership. Where we lost membership was following the pandemic and the cost of living crisis. It was money. It was money.

Yeah. But women, women were desperate to continue to be membership and we bent over backwards to make it as cheap as it possibly could be. But nevertheless, we are talking about representing some of the people in the lowest socioeconomic bands and they simply couldn't afford it. And when politics becomes about what you can and cannot afford, then we really are in some kind of trouble here. So maybe we can do more now when there isn't a cost to it. You mentioned cost there. You will have seen, of course, the columnist Suzanne Moore as well,

who helped set the party up. She wrote recently that after years of taking the donations and membership subscriptions of women who could ill afford them but remained hopeful somehow, that a quick look at X, or previously called Twitter, will reveal just how betrayed so many women felt who put their heart and soul into trying to make it work. A quick reaction from both of you.

I think I actually really like Suzanne and I've been trying to talk to her for ages. So hello, Suzanne. What I was going to say is I don't think that Twitter is representative of anything other than people shouting very, very loudly, which is why so many people have left it. But to the wider point, it just simply isn't true that that was anything to do with our demise. And I want to say something before you go to Sandy, which is you mentioned Mandu Reid. Yes. People keep talking about Kemi Badnock as the first black woman leader of a political party.

No, Mandu Reid was and is. You heard it on Woman's Hour. Go ahead, Sandy. The fight continues, that's all I'll say. And I certainly wouldn't look for any reaction to X on Twitter. I think it has become a pointless place. You're not on there. I'm not on there.

Or you're leaving or something. You can find me on TikToks, Vig, which is way more fun. And I'm on there because I'm writing about disinformation. So there you go. Well, there's quite a lot to write about on that as well. OK, what's next? Where will I see the two of you? When will you be in here for next?

Oh my God, we're doing so many things. We're doing so many different projects. Rukhshana. Rukhshana Media is a thing that we are hugely supporting. It's an incredible English speaking organisation bringing the stories of Afghanistan to a wider thing. And that is we're doing a huge event with them soon. It is, we have to talk every day, every day about the fact

that there's gender apartheid happening in Afghanistan. And also, obviously, Sandy has her Mappa Mundi project, which is just the small thing of completely... Rewriting the internet. Rewriting the internet so that it reflects women's stories and women's experiences. I'm working on two different books, both of which, one's a novel which I'm just in the final edit,

the other's a book about royal women from Anne Boleyn to Meghan, but it's like a feminist take on royal women. Sandy's just published an amazing novel, which storytelling you see is incredibly important to the world that we're in this polarised world. The only way you can get people to listen and to understand and that we ourselves can listen and hear other perspectives is through stories. You're both still friends. Oh. You know, in 10 years, we have not had one single crossword. Come on. No.

And the most... Is that a joke? No. It's really not. The biggest compliment Catherine made me yesterday, she said, and you've never even annoyed me. I thought, well, that's not too bad. Is that true? It's really true.

Last night, we finished as we started. We had a couple of beers together. You had some Prosecco. I did have a little bit of Prosecco. She had beer as well. Like white shoes. Thank you both for coming in, Catherine Meyer and Sandy Toksvig. And we will speak to you about whatever comes next,

which seems like an awful lot of things. It's always a pleasure to see you. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now, many people are aware of postnatal depression and the baby blues, but what about depression in relation to ending breastfeeding? Well, in a recent article for British Vogue,

the author and writer Alice Vincent asked, why does nobody speak about post-breastfeeding depression? This was something she experienced after she stopped breastfeeding her son. Breastfeeding is an intensely personal and emotional experience. For some, it brings joy and connection.

Others face challenges or choose not to continue, often encountering societal pressures or feelings of guilt. I'm joined by Alice and also Hilda Beauchamp, who is a perinatal and infant mental health lead at the Institute of Health Visiting and a midwife and health visitor by background. You're both very welcome. Alice, let me begin with you. Why did you want to share your experience? Hi there. Yeah, it was just something that I was so overwhelmed by the silence around. When I went through it, I had been feeding for about 18 months and I had really, really close connections with other young mothers in my circle. And we'd all weaned our children. We'd spoken about all sorts of aspects of what happens after you'd had a baby. But the discussion about the hormonal drop off and the

feelings that happen afterwards just didn't seem to happen. I asked a few people about it. And there wasn't much to be said. And when I mentioned something about this on social media, I was completely overwhelmed by how many other people felt the same way. And I felt that it was very strange that when I googled it, there wasn't a lot that came up. Why was this thing happening to so many people, people were getting so upset about it. But it just hadn't been written about online. I thought as a journalist, that was something I could do. Have you got any closer to finding out why it's not spoken? I think there are several reasons. But I think, as you said, breastfeeding is a complicated thing, especially in society. Everyone's opinion on it

seems to be not quite in alignment with your own personal experience. And I think there is a reason to celebrate for a lot of people when you get to the end of your breastfeeding journey. So people quite good naturedly and very well intendedly were saying, oh, well done. But there wasn't a big conversation about, oh, how are you feeling? And how did you feel? I felt fine for a week. And then after that, I was absolutely stonewalled by these deeply miserable feelings. I felt borderline suicidal. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I felt incredibly sad. I was crying a lot. I felt borderline suicidal. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I felt incredibly sad. I was crying a lot.

I felt pretty hopeless. And I just could not understand why. Did you twig it? How long did it take? It took 48 hours for me to realise that it was hormones and I wasn't just losing my mind. Yeah. But then to find the help that you needed? I was really fortunate in that when I realised that it was just hormones I was able to process that

but I did also speak to my therapist about it and I was really grateful that I had a good therapeutic solution in place at the time I see people have messaged already this morning since we mentioned that you would be coming on Good morning, Ray Breastfeeding I'm a mum of a one-year-old I've just gone back to work and my son has started nursery three days a week

I feel like my hand has therefore been forced to wean his day feeds and have struggled with mastitis as my body has tried to adjust and produce the right amount of milk. This has definitely caused depressive thoughts. I'm exhausted as my boy seems to have chosen to night cycle and feed through the night, which I don't want to deny him, but I'm exhausted. On we go. Post breastfeeding depression? Really? In my case, it was post breastfeeding celebration. My son decided when to stop. Something clicked in his brain. He also started sleeping through the night. Yay. I did have one regret post breastfeeding. My newfound breast disappeared again. Somehow I wasn't expecting that. I assumed that finally acquiring them in my 30s,

they were there to stay. Not so, says Julia. But that just gives us a snapshot. Right. And don't get me wrong there was this bitter sweetness i i had enjoyed feeding but i wanted it to end and it was my decision and there was a relief at no longer having that part of my life uh responsibility anymore but i think it's as you say it is a huge spectrum there's lots and lots of feelings and so often it happens as your um listener said when you go back to work, you're navigating that journey. When I spoke to, I spoke to about a dozen women for the piece that I wrote

and the feelings that seemed universal, Kirsten, was one of isolation. That even women who had incredible relationships with their partners, relationships with female partners, good support networks, still felt like they couldn't really talk to anyone about it because it's such an intimate and often by the time you've had a very kind of quiet journey that you're doing by

yourself there isn't the room to have a conversation about it let us bring in hilda beecham who um is as i mentioned a midwife and health visitor by background as well hilda do you hear from many women that that talk about this depression or very, very low feelings, borderline suicidal, as we were also just hearing from Alice? Yes, good morning. We do hear from women about these feelings. Post-weaning depression is an unofficial term that describes those emotions and feelings that Alice has talked about, that low mood, that loss of interest in things that were previously enjoyable,

fatigue, disturbance to sleep and appetite. It's an under-researched area. We don't have official statistics about how many women it affects. It's mostly personal accounts, what we've seen in clinical practice, community groups and forums. But we do know, what we do know is that at least one in five women develop a mental illness in pregnancy or in that first year after birth. Sorry, continue.

Yeah, no, very sadly, as Alice has also highlighted, we know that suicide still remains a leading cause of maternal death in that first postnatal year. And what we do know is that around 70% of women underplay or hide those feelings. So any opportunity that we have to talk about any mental health issue after having a baby and encourage women to speak up and seek help at the earliest opportunity is great. So the fact that we're getting such a response to Alice's article gives us that opportunity to talk about it. Let me read some more of the response. I found, this is Ellie,

I found stopping breastfeeding when my daughter was 11 months old booted me into a low mood, which I only came out of with the help of face-to-face therapy and antidepressants. I was unprepared for this as I've been winding down for a couple of months. I've been anxious as a new mom, but this was a different feeling of pointlessness and lethargy. I'm expecting my second child now and will be more prepared for this final step in the hormonal roller coaster of early motherhood. What is it, Hilda, as you understand it, and you have said

that there is very little research into the actual numbers, which is another question we could delve into. But what is the physical effects that are causing these psychological ones? Well, we know that it is likely down to fluctuating hormones. So the two hormones that are particularly at play with breastfeeding are prolactin, which is responsible for making milk, and oxytocin that is responsible for the milk ejection or letdown reflex. And both of these hormones contribute to those feelings of calm and relaxation and love and connectedness. And when breastfeeding stops, those hormone levels fall. And additionally, the oestrogen levels, which have been kept quite low during the breastfeeding journey, will start to rise. And that overall impact is one of quite instability in mood.

And these hormone shifts affect women in different ways. Some may barely notice it, but they may notice any difference. And that's particularly if a baby or toddler has stopped feeding slowly over a period of a few weeks or months. And other women may experience a very profound change in mood, as Alice was describing. And I think the point that Alice made around it's not just the physiological things that are going on but it's the psychological changes it's that loss of identity as a breastfeeding mum um it might be sadness that it's signaling a new stage of independence for the for the baby and a bit of uncertainty about what what lies ahead um and that response of you know congratulations you've got your freedom back

or you know significantly for women who may not have met their breastfeeding goals who may not have been supported to breastfeed for as long as they want and they're often met with well you know at least your baby's getting some milk you know fed is best and you know while both of these things might be true it's not you know the sense of being minimized or that the the experience is not validated is what women tell us is really difficult for them to process. And I can see Alice nodding at that point. Yeah, when experiences aren't validated. And I think that's the case through so much of matrescence.

Which is the time after you've had a baby. Yeah, as someone who's still firmly in it. I assume that not everyone is aware of it um you go through so many things that society has for centuries told you kind of don't matter or aren't important or get on with it everyone's had a baby and no you're going through this enormous physiological and physical and like psychological change and sometimes you just want to be hurt and talk to you about it did you were you aware that these hormones were going to dip massively, that to be ready for the potential crash?

Exactly, I was. I was aware of it. I fed for far longer than I anticipated and in a way that was far more enjoyable than I'd experienced as well. But I was ready to stop and I had read about it. I knew that these hormones were going to stop. I was ready to stop. And I had read about it, I knew that these hormones were going to stop, I was ready for the crash. It just happened later than I anticipated. And it was far, far more intense than I expected. You know, there is often this debate about trying to get more women breastfeeding, for example, I think in the UK, it's quite low compared to other countries however these stories about stopping breastfeeding or weaning sometimes aren't out there there is among some this fear that it

might put women off but what would you want mums to know maybe that are pregnant now that have this whole potential journey in front of them what would I want them to know I want them to know that that their gut instinct is right with regards to feeding and that there is support out there, not as much as I'd like, but that it, you know, that to talk to people about it,

talk to your other mum friends, they're probably going through the same, even if they don't necessarily have the language or the energy to talk about it without asking first. Yeah, and it shouldn't be a reason not to feed in the first place. I want to let our listeners know, if you'd like more information around mental health support, do head to the BBC Action Line website for lots of helpful resources.

I want to thank Hilda Beecham, also Alice Vincent, who came in. And to your messages, here's another. I feel compelled to message about breastfeeding grief. I had this with my second child who stopped feeding after four months and felt so terrible about it, like my job as a woman was over and too soon. I wanted to continue breastfeeding, but I couldn't cope with the lack of sleep and managing my two-year-old. I still feel sad about it.

And that was four years ago. Thanks so much for your messages. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Maybe you're not familiar with the name of my next guest, but I can almost guarantee you'll have seen and heard about her work. As Devlin is the artist and set designer behind some of the most iconic cultural moments over the years, whether it's, let's see, Rio Olympics, the opening ceremony, Beyonce's stadium tours, Stormzy, remember, who stood in the rain at the Brits, that was in 2018.

Her career began in theatre. She's won two Olivier Awards and a Tony. She's designed the stage for the National Theatre's Dear England, also the Lehman Trilogy, the second of which is currently back in the West End. I could go on and on, but we need to get talking to Es Devlin, who joins us in the Women's Hour studio. Good morning. Good morning. You are such an accomplished woman. So many parts of your career that I would like to touch on.

And I have been reliving some of the moments as I was thumbing through your book, An Atlas of Es Devlin. And it is apt called an atlas as we're travelling through these mesmerising worlds that you have created. But I'm going to begin. Before we go back as we're travelling through these mesmerising worlds that you have created. But I'm going to begin. Before we go back, we're going to go forward. Your work that is opening this weekend at Somerset House.

This is face to face, 50 encounters with strangers. It's a work you've done in collaboration with the UNHCR, which is the refugee agency of the UN. Talk us through it. Every day for four months, a knock would come at the door. I would answer it. A stranger would enter. I knew only their first name. Nothing else about them except that at some point in their life, they'd come to London seeking sanctuary.

For 45 minutes, I made a chalk and charcoal drawing of them, listening to Max Richter's Four Seasons and encountering all of my own assumptions, presumptions, unconscious bias, overlays, until at 45 minutes we paused the drawing and then me from the periphery saying, why were you focusing on this beautiful young woman's hijab when it turns out she's an airline pilot and you should have been focusing on her watch, you know? situation, four displaced persons in Syria, in Somalia, in Afghanistan, I could go on and on. And then I brought them all together in a recreation of that studio room at Somerset House, so you can walk in, see the bits of chalk and charcoal on the floor as if I've just finished the last drawing. And you can see a projection map sequence, where you hear the voices of all of my co-authors, as I called them in the end of the work. So that is a real collaboration. You mentioned one woman who was wearing a hijab, who turned out she was an airline pilot. Tell me about some of the women that you met.

There was a woman who came in and I was tormented by the fact that I thought she looked like two other women. And I had been listening to podcasts about the genocide in Rwanda, because I had drawn two women who turned out to be from Rwanda. And I castigated myself and censored myself from thinking there is the same distance between this woman's eyes, same length of nose, because I had just been hearing podcasts about Belgian eugenicists who divided people based on such dimensions. And of course, when we finished the drawing session, the lady said to me, I'm actually this woman's sister. And I'm this woman's mother. And the drawing knew what I wouldn't allow myself to know. How incredible. It's so captivating.

Can you describe it for people, what those sketches look like? It's an intense face-to-face encounter. I came across a philosopher called Emmanuel Levinas, who said the face ordains and orders us. It is the most basic mode of responsibility. The distance between two faces is untraversable and yet traversed. And you can encounter a quality of infinity in the gaze between two human faces.

And I really did encounter that. And I had encountered something of this sort of intimation of infinity in 2022. I was asked to do a portrait of London. And I said, can I look at the 15,000 species of Londoners that are not human? So I drew 250 London species that are endangered changed. I felt a porosity between the patterns of the veins on my hand and the patterns of the veins inosity in our country, in our city towards Ukrainians, because it was at the beginning of the Ukraine crisis. And I started to ask myself, why this wonderful porosity, compassion, openness of our hearts, our arms, our schools, why only towards Ukraine? Why not towards Afghanistan, Syria, Eritrea, similar numbers. And I started those portraits of strangers that are now on view at Somerset House, because I wanted to encounter those structures of separation, architectures of otherness that I saw at work in my community. I wanted to encounter them in myself. I thought, I bet they're there too.

It's so personal, the work, as you describe it. I personally have watched some of your work, but in these huge stadium settings instead. I've been lucky enough to go to see Beyonce a couple of times, be it Reformation and also the Renaissance tour. I also went to Pet Shop Boys when I first got to London in 2009, Pandemonium. That was also yours. And when I went to see them, I felt like I was in a dream, I think is the way I would describe it. Just fantastical, particularly that last Beyonce show. I was like, is this even real? Where am I anymore?

But hearing you speak about those portraits, I'd like to know where it starts for something that ends up so huge and spectacular. U2 Sphere, Adela Griffith Park Observatory, for example. Where does it start? It always starts in an encounter. And it's always intimate. And certainly in the case of lyrics, song lyrics, no artist writes song lyrics that touch people unless they have been profoundly touched by something themselves. So it starts there with personal experience, often very fragile, often nothing huge, stadium scale, bombastic about it at all. And you have to hold the intimacy of that truthful observation and conduct it carefully as you add the layers of augmentation, which will allow it to reach an audience of 100,000 people in a stadium.

How, you obviously have these teams as well that have come, I'm just fascinated looking through your book from when you were like a young girl and this work that spans decades at this point. How do you not have your vision or your work diluted in huge teams? You spend practically every moment after the initial magic of the idea, protecting the idea from the constant threat of diminution and dilution. And here's the thing, the surprising thing, for a work to end up its best possible version of itself. Everybody, every collaborator has to do their second best work. For example, if you want projection and lighting, the lighting designer has to not do the very best lighting in order to allow the projection to thrive. The projection designer has to not do their very best projection in order to allow the lighting to thrive.

And that requires a great generosity of spirits to bring out your second best work in order for the work itself to be the best it can be. But looking at your work, I don't know if you're a perfectionist, but you're obviously a genius and brilliant with this work and I'm wondering how you can have that generosity and not feel frustrated. You have to fall in love with ideas and instincts that are not your own and my studio are largely women in fact they're all women at the moment. It comes and goes. But right now it's seven women. And I learned quite early on that to trust their ideas and allow their ideas to thrive within the ecosystem of thoughts I've had over the years would always bring about something richer and more interesting and more relatable to the audience. I will point people to your book that I mentioned, The Actors of Estavlan, also to your website. I mean, the amount of people, if I talk about The Weekend or Stormzy or Adele or Beyonce, you two, is there somebody that you really want to work with that you haven't worked with yet?

There is. She's called Joanna Macy, and I believe she's 97. So I need to make it happen quite soon. She wrote a book called World as Lover, World as Self, in which she invites practices to help us connect and recognize ourselves as a continuation with the biosphere. And I'm always interested in anything that unpicks structures of separation and institute structures of connection. Well, I'm glad you came to connect with us here on Woman's Hour today.

As Devlin's work in action, the Lehman Trilogy, on at Gillian Lynn Theatre in London until the 5th of January. The new exhibition, Face to Face, 50 Encounters with Strangers, open at Somerset House, continuing until the 12th of January. I do hope you'll come back. Tomorrow, we have the US comedian,

Zainab Johnson, about growing up in Harlem with 13 siblings, also about gun ownership and being too nice on dates. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello and welcome to You Heard It Here First. Chris McCausland on BBC Radio 4. This is the show that asks our guests to live in an all-you-only world. Where panellists use sound clues to work out what's going on. Guess how this dog's feeling.

Constipated. Yeah, definitely. Steph, what am I doing? Is that a hand dryer? Is this the same dog? You heard it here first with me, Chris McCausland. Why are you so familiar with that sound? From BBC Radio 4.

Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.