Woman's Hour - Midlife marriage and money, Sara Sharif, Blessing scams, Maddalena Vaglio Tanet

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

What are the economic implications of getting married in your midlife? Anita Rani is joined by the Financial Times’ Claer Barrett, writer and couples counsellor Lucy Cavendish and journalist and author Flic Everett to share their thoughts and experiences.The murder trial of Sara Sharif, a 10-year-old girl found dead in Woking in August 2023, is at the Old Bailey in London. Sara's father Urfan Sharif, stepmother Beinash Batool, and uncle, Faisal Malik, have denied murder. BBC correspondent Helena Wilkinson talks to Anita about what the jury has been told so far.Are Women's Super League football clubs overlooking female English coaches? The Football Association has an aim of 75% female coaches in this league, but the season started with four out of 12 female coaches, two of whom are English. The BBC’s senior women’s football reporter Emma Sanders joins Anita to discuss why this might be.Blessing scams are targeting Chinese communities in the UK. They're usually carried out by women in groups of three, approaching people asking for help in Cantonese. Tuyet van Huynh's mother was one of these victims. After she was targeted, Tuyet set out to expose this practice on social media and has since heard from other victims. She speaks to Anita about the impact the crime has had on their family.Italian author Maddalena Vaglio Tanet’s acclaimed debut novel Untold Lessons is a story she was born to write. Based on events that took place in her own family decades ago, Untold Lessons explores how a tragic event prompts the disappearance of a much-loved teacher, and what the double mystery tells us about the lives and attitudes of the people living her local community at the time.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. On the programme today, Madalena Vaglio-Tennant will be telling us about her beautiful novel Untold Lessons and the scam targeting older Chinese women by convincing them their children are in danger and offering blessings in return for their valuables. We'll be hearing about that. We'll also be looking at why there are so few female English football coaches in the Women's Super League and we're going to be discussing the financial implications of getting married

a little later in life, your midlife and beyond. You've possibly built a life for yourself, already have children, money in the bank, a property, or maybe nothing at all. But what does that mean when you decide to get married? It's all very romantic, finding the one later in life. Maybe you did, but what are the practicalities? The stuff you might find hard to talk about but need to be tackled. Inheritance. Wills.

Whose children get what? If this is something you have experience of, get in touch and share your story. How did you talk about finance when you got married later, if you did at all? Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me by going to our website or you can whatsapp me or even drop me a voice note it's 03700 100 444 and to follow us on social media it's at bbc woman's hour your stories please but first the murder trial of sarah sharif a 10 year old girl who was found dead in

woking surrey in in August last year is being conducted this week at the Old Bailey in London. Her father, Irfan Sharif, stepmother Benesh Batul and uncle Faisal Malik have denied murder. Along with disturbing details of the violence Sarah suffered before her death, the trial has also highlighted the issue of who, if anyone, raised concerns about Sarah's welfare before she died. BBC correspondent Helena Wilkinson has been covering the trial and joins me now. Some of what we will talk about you may find distressing. Morning, Helena.

Now, at the centre of this case is 10-year-old Sarah Sharif. Who was she? Yeah, Sarah was a 10-year-old girl, as you say. She lived with her family in Woking in Surrey. She had been a pupil at St Mary's Primary School in Byfleet. The trial is entering its fourth day today. They've already heard the jury that Sarah was withdrawn from school after her father, Irfan Sharif, made the request so that she could be homeschooled.

That happened four months before Sarah died. And the jury has also heard that they will be hearing from evidence from teachers, Sarah's teachers. They've heard one of them describe Sarah as a happy child, who at times would be, as she put it, sassy. So who are the people who've been accused of her murder? Zahra's father, Irfan Sharif, her stepmother, Beanish Batool, and her uncle, Faisal Malik.

The three defendants have been in the dock for the trial and it is the prosecution's case that it is inconceivable that one of the adults alone or two of them could have carried out what amounts to the prosecution say a campaign of abuse without the complicity participation assistance and encouragement of the others that the prosecution's case that all three defendants are responsible for her death and they are all guilty of her murder. The three defendants deny the charges of murder and they also face each a charge of causing or allowing the death of a child, which they deny as well.

What has the jury heard about the way in which Sarah died last year? Well, yesterday the jury heard absolutely harrowing evidence from the pathologist, Dr Nathaniel Carey, who carried out the post-mortem examination on sarah along with a pediatric pathologist the jury heard that the cause of sarah's death was complications arising from multiple injuries and neglect dr carey told the court that the neglect referred to sarah possibly being left unattended with a brain injury which was likely suffered several days before her death and the jury heard

that sarah had more than 70 new external injuries as well as internal and old injuries she suffered puncture wounds burns bruising and abrasions. And the jury has also heard that she had probable human bite marks, an iron burn and scalding from hot water. The dental impressions, the prosecutor previously said, ruled out that the bite marks had been caused by the male defendants. But being it at all, Sarah's stepmother had refused to provide the impressions. Very shocking and difficult to hear the details of the tragic death of this 10-year-old girl because 10-year-olds are meant to be protected. Very distressing to hear the details.

The jury has also been told that Sarah Sharif began wearing the hijab to hide her facial injuries in January 2023. That was just months before her death. And the jurors have been told they will hear evidence from neighbours and school staff, as you've mentioned. What have they been told about this so far? Well, staff at Sarah's primary school noticed a bruise under her left eye in the previous year before Sarah died.

That's in June 2022. Then staff noticed a bruise on her chin and a dark mark under her right eye in March 2023. And it was the month after that, as I mentioned earlier, that Sarah's father took her out of school to be homeschooled and the jury has heard that when sarah was asked by teachers about the bruises she gave multiple conflicting tales of how she got them and she used her hijab to conceal her face

when she was questioned by teachers the jury has also been told during the opening of the case earlier this week that they will hear evidence from neighbours. One neighbour will say has said that they found it unusual that Sarah was the only member of her large extended family to wear a hijab and they will also hear the jury accounts from neighbours. They will include one woman who heard two days before Sarah's death a single high-pitched scream which lasted a couple of seconds and stopped suddenly and another neighbour the jury has heard who lived near the family's previous address in West Byfleet said that she heard shockingly loud sounds of smacking and gut-wrenching screams of young female children. The jury will hear evidence during the trial from teachers from Saris School and also neighbours.

And they have heard that after teachers noticed that bruise on her chin and a dark mark under her right eye in March 2023, staff then agreed that a referral should be made to social services. How was Sarah's death discovered? Well, the police went round there after Irfan Sharif made a 999 call, the jury heard, from Pakistan. Police went round to the house in Woking. They searched the downstairs of the house. They couldn't find anyone. They went upstairs and it was an officer who we've heard from during the trial about how he discovered Sarah on the bottom of a bunk bed with a cover over her. He described the cover as being put there neatly and Sarah's body was found underneath that underneath a pillow six under

a pillow the police officer found a note in earth and sharif handwriting the jury has been told and that note said love you sarah whoever see this note it's me earth and sharif who killed my daughter by beating i am running away because i am scared, but I promise that I will hand over myself and take punishment. Incredibly difficult to hear the details of this. But her father, Afan Sharif, made that phone call from Pakistan. So he'd gone to Pakistan.

Yes, that's right. So before Sara's body was found found the jury has heard that the three defendants her father's stepmother and her uncle all fled to pakistan with other children before sarah's body was found and about an hour or so after they landed in islamabad uh and sharif sarah's father called surrey police and he admits to the operator that he, or he confessed that he killed his daughter. It was a call that had been played to the jury, lasted over eight minutes. He tells the operator he legally punished her and she died. He goes on to tell the operator that Sara had been naughty, that he beat her up. It wasn't my intention to kill her, he told the operator,

but I'd beat her up too much. They all deny murder, but what is he saying about the role of Sarah's stepmother, Bernice Patel? Yes, they all deny the murder charges and they also deny the causing or allowing the death of a child charges. Clearly, the jury will have to wait for the defense to begin but they have already been told that it's their understanding the prosecution's understanding that irfan sharif sarah's father his case was that

beenish batul his wife sarah's stepmother, was responsible for Sara's death. And the confession in the phone call and also the note that was found, which I mentioned earlier, by Sara, he will say is false to protect Binesh Batul. Today is day four of the trial. How long is it expected to run? Weeks. It's expected to last weeks. The jury has been told that it could last up until December the 13th. Helena Wilkinson, thank you very much. The text number, once again, is

84844. Quite difficult to hear the details of what happened to Sarah Sharif. If you would like to get in touch with the programme about anything you hear, anything you'd like to share your thoughts on, you can also email me by going to our website. Now, as I'm sure you are all aware,

comedian Miranda Hart has recently revealed that she got married, becoming the first-time bride at the age of 51. Her excitement over her nuptials has been palpable. She described her groom in a video on X as her best friend to do life with. And it's wonderful. However, there's also a lot of admin, finances, property, children, wills, inheritance, pensions, to name but a few.

So let's get into the economics that you should consider before walking down the aisle. Joining me now is Financial Times columnist Claire Barrett, writer Lucy Cavendish, who got married for the first time in her 50s, and journalist and author Flick Everett, who got married for the first time, age 51. Morning to all of you. Welcome to the programme. Claire, I'm going to come to you first. Is it trickier financially to marry in your late 40s, early 50s than earlier in life well there's more to think about and that's because we tend to have built up more assets by the time we're in our 40s or 50s you mentioned you could have a home um already and a mortgage you could have a pension pensions are often overlooked in divorce settlements but they can be very valuable you could have your own business that's another asset and you could have your own children although whether they're an asset or a liability from a cost perspective, we could debate at length. But this is why more and more couples are agreeing to what's called a prenup before they get married.

Now, it's a legal document. You have to both have independent legal advice to draw on up and it sets out your position. So it might say this person has this, this person has that. And in the event that we were to part ways, this is what would happen. Now, many people by this stage in life already would have been through a divorce or a breakup, and they may feel less that a prenup is something deeply unromantic. They may feel it's actually very pragmatic and sensible, and it will give the couple confidence to plan their future and go forward knowing that if the relationship doesn't work out they will still be secure and protected if they're later single again. Lucy I'm bringing you in because that's exactly what you ended up doing right a prenup tell us tell us about your situation. Well I think Claire's completely right I think by the time you get

into your 50s in your 20s you're all maybe amassing stuff or you're building stuff and you're having children and maybe you're buying a house, but you're doing it together. By the time you meet in your, let's say, 40s or 50s, you know, you've got your own life going on. Maybe you've got your pension, your house, your kids, exactly. And if you get married later on in life, you're, you know, in my mind, I was like, okay, I've got this house, and I've built this up, and I've got my career. And that is something I'm going to leave to my children. And let's face it, it's not millions. It's not like I'm a millionaire. And I've got loads of just sort of splash around and give it to everybody. So that's really important to them. And what I didn't want to do was get married, then, let's say, you know, get divorced and all that to end up being split 50-50. Because once you've done that, there's not much

left. So I think it's an intelligent, practical thing to do. But of course, you know, love is romantic and passionate. This is amazing. When you say to someone, actually, you know, is it okay if we sit down and go through our spreadsheet? No one goes no one goes, well, that's a great idea. I can't think of anything I'd rather do on a Friday night than go through our financial spreadsheet together. Personally, I wasn't going to do that. But a really good friend of mine said. So you weren't going to do the spreadsheet?

Were you going to talk finance? I'm a big, fluffy romantic. No, I was like, oh, it'll be fine. It'll be, you know, people are kind and lovely. No one's going to take your money. And my friend was like oh it'll be fine it'll be you know people are kind and lovely and no one's going to take your money and my friend was like stop so he said you don't get married without a prenup and he was very firm about it and he's a very sensible man and I respect him so we did do a prenup that's exactly what we did and how was that conversation how did you broach it very awkward and very difficult it's not easy to say to somebody, I think we need to sit down and work this all out.

And the word pension makes anybody at any age, especially in your 50s, go, please don't say the P word. You know, no one's thinking. And what have you put aside? But we don't know what's around the corner. I mean, you know, various people aren't here in my life anymore because they've died and they and they've left their finances in a mess. And that's not really helping anybody, actually. aren't here in my life anymore because they've died and they've left their finances in a mess. And that's not really helping anybody, actually. Flick, before I come to you, just very quickly, Claire, do prenups hold any weight, legal weight in this country? You're right to raise this, Anita, because they are a bit of a grey area of the law in the UK.

Now, judges will take them seriously if both parties have had independent legal advice if it hasn't been done in a hurry um before you've got married if there's any kind of suggestion that one party is coerced into to signing something that could leave them in a weaker position um then it will be thrown out but there are lots of services springing up like ween up that's a new digital one to make it easier and also cheaper for couples to do this. And lawyers tell us at the FT that inquiries about prenups have more than doubled this year, which is partly a reflection of the increasing age of people getting married. Also, just the word ween up sounds better than prenup, doesn't it?

It's like we're in it together, just sort of market it differently. Flick, what about you? Did you ever sit down and talk about these things with your now husband? How did you tackle this? Not really. Just to correct a little minor misinformation, it was not my first marriage. I had been married before. It was my husband's first marriage. And I was the same age as Miranda. I was 51 and he was 50. And yeah, we had already lived together for eight years. I did not bring much to the marriage because after my previous divorce, I didn't have much left over. I had been renting a house. I'm not the sort of person who saves or has pensions. I've always been very foolish about

money, trying to be better. But I met him and he has always been quite sensible. He didn't have kids. I've got one grown up kid. And so it was quite simple in a lot of ways. You know, he had a little house. He was building a holiday house. I had income from my job. But other than that, we didn't have any great savings or shares or anything middle aged and complex to worry about and because we'd lived together for a long time and completely trusted each other I think we just assumed it would all be all right and what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine you know we didn't really if I'm honest we didn't really talk about it we just kind of went ahead and got married

why did you decide to go ahead with it why go why get married if you were sort of living happily? Oh it's romantic we are romantic and also I think because we both have older relations and I think you know they wanted to make sure that we were kind of parceled off and happy you know and we wanted to do it while they were still around as well and I think we just thought it's a bit silly calling yourself boyfriend and girlfriend when you're in your 50s it would be nice to be married and to be a family and there was no reason not to so we did and I'm really glad we did it was lovely but I will say that money was not our main concern just because we were lucky and we didn't have huge amounts of complicated finance to worry about unlike a lot of people and how did that compare with your previous marriage marriages did you

discuss finance in those yeah it it was a lot easier actually I know people are saying oh it's much harder when you're in midlife but actually when I was younger when I married my previous husband I was 29 he He was about 32. We already had children separately. We started young, you know, and we had to get a mortgage on a big house that all the children could have bedrooms in, you know, and we had complicated lives and lots of bills and we were traveling all the time. So it was very complex, actually actually and we needed quite a lot of money to keep the whole show on the road and i would say now looking back that money was one of

the biggest issues in our marriage because we never had quite enough you know we never knew where the next bit was coming from because we were both freelance and it caused a huge issue and it's only now that i'm you know much more settled in my early 50s early 50s that I feel less worried about money you know that I do feel I've got some security and a basis to work from now. Claire even if you're not married though there are things to consider aren't there? Yes and I would say Flick there are very sound financial reasons to to get married if you are cohabiting because this term like my common law partner legally it stands for absolutely nothing and if you jointly own a property together but you don't have a will and one of you dies there could be inheritance tax complications you could have to sell your home in order to pay the tax bills but also pensions

they're outside of wills and if you do get married to to a new partner you'll need to go back and change the paperwork on any old pensions to make sure that your ex doesn't get hold of them you also need to make a new will because getting married revokes wills that have gone before and in situations like your family and my own family and so I married a divorced man who already had children obviously what the children are expecting in terms of what inheritance they might get or what help from parents and step parents they might get. I think the transparency should extend there. And that's what I've done in my own life, because it's so common for second marriages, second families, for the children from the first family to really be cut out of the financial arrangements if their parent is the one to die first and their new step parent is the one who gets the money and doesn't honour their original partner's will so we're very transparent in my family my stepkids all know what

they're what they're going to get if I ever get knocked over by a bus. Flick you've got an adult son as you mentioned is inheritance something that you've discussed as a family? No not really I'm aware during this discussion that I'm sounding like a complete idiot but I think because I grew up without any expectation of having an inheritance you know my parents are sort of writers and radio people and they're quite bohemian about money we've never really sat down and talked it through we've always just kind of grubbed along and hoped some more would come from somewhere and it usually has eventually.

But it's not really something that we've talked about. I would assume now that my son will inherit half of whatever, you know, I end up with. So who knows? I try not to worry too much about it, although listening to Claire, I think I absolutely should be worried I feel like I feel like Claire needs to talk to you directly here like

happy to do so but these things they sound daunting and like even the pre-nut conversation um we were hearing it is awkward as Lucy was saying but it's so much less awkward than having to deal with this huge mess when the relationship ends whether that's because you split up or because something tragic happens and one of you dies early and don't think of this as like one massive conversation that you've got to have in one go think of it as lots of smaller conversations it's free wills month at the moment as well so if one of you in the couple is 55 or over you can actually speak to a solicitor for free in october and get a will drawn

up if you make a small donation to one of the charities that that fund the scheme so there are lots of ways that you can improve things don't see the barriers see how great you'll feel when you know i've got it all sorted lucy you said you sat down you did the prenup did you change your will um yes um but i have learned through all sorts of huge mistakes financially because i was a bit more on the flick side to actually take responsibility for my money and what i want to say is a lot as with my therapist hat on that a lot of this is about our relationship with money and how we feel about money and some of us do this oh no i don't want to think about it and i was one of those very ostrichy i don't want to think about it. And I was one of those, very ostrichy, I don't want to think about money, it'll just come from the air. And it's really made me grow up about money and sit down and think, what are my finances about? And why am I not doing something about it?

So what do you say to your clients then when it comes to, you know, their own relationship with money or what if they're as couples yeah well i say there are two things we need to talk about one is money no elephants in the room and the other is sex we won't need to go into that now but i'm like you need to have a grown-up conversation not about who's got what you know i've got this and he's got that but about how you feel about money and if you've got a spender if you've got someone just spends and someone that doesn't spend you're going to get into conflict but that comes about your emotional relationship with money and all your thoughts and feelings about it. But you can shift it. As Claire said, there's practical ways to shift it, which is go and see a financial advisor. And you've just got to actually have a conversation about it and take some responsibility. Or else you can end up in a very messy place.

Claire, do you get couples coming to you? Do you feel like you have to have a bit of a therapist hat on as well as being a financial advisor? Oh, yes. And I completely echo what Lucy is saying about so much of this stems from our relationship with money emotionally, and how compatible or not that might be with our partners. I mean, I would say to any couple of any age looking to get together, like how easy or difficult do you find it to talk about money together whether that's how to split the costs of your first date or how to work together towards your shared goals like trying to save up for a property or even how to address an imbalance in your relationship one of you learning more one of you maybe being older there's an age gap in my relationship too and that can also cause issues but the key is being transparent having the confidence to to talk about these things as as lisi said and to work it through and frankly

there is no shame in feeling awkward about money i would say the vast majority of people do it is normal i wish it wasn't um but when you know that then you may not feel as strange or as weird trying to come to terms i wonder if that's a cultural thing. Definitely affects British people more than American people, I would say. Lots of Americans working at the FT, very different culture over there. And I think we also feel ashamed that we don't know more, like we should do.

All of this stuff going on around us, pensions, pay rises. Women, it has to be said, I don't want to overgeneralise, but often we'll leave it to their other halves to to do the money we might be the ones who spend money and decide what the money is going to be spent on within the household but we're much less likely surveys have shown to do things like investing and pensions and finance well our sample of two uh lucy and flick who are two very smart women both of them have said are quite fessed up to not really wanting to talk about money, but, you know, putting themselves out there and making sure they do this time round. Lots of people getting in touch about this.

I'm going to read out a few messages. I got married this year. I'm 42. He's 53. I moved out of my house and into his. I pay towards everything, bills, etc. His will states that I can live in whatever house we're in after he dies. But if I sell or die myself, it goes between his three children.

Two of my kids live with us at the moment, but none of my three kids will get anything, only what I provide. Someone else says, I'd like to remain anonymous, but I just want to say getting married in my late 40s with equal finances and the same number of children seems simple until you discover how often he financially rescues his work-shy, feckless adult children, getting very bitter about our will splitting everything equally. Claire, what advice would you give Anonymous? Oh, my goodness. I mean, that is a really hard one to set ground rules with who spends what on whose children. I mean, I would say being able to talk about money, that financial compatibility, if you've got that in a relationship, you can handle problems together

and find the rules that suit you for managing these things. But the worst possible things, I'm sure Lucy would agree, is bottling it up. Yeah, I think we need to do another discussion about not particularly getting on with your new partner's children but that's another discussion for the day this has been fascinating. Claire, Lucy and Flick thank you very much for joining me to talk about that the text number 84844 your messages are coming in I'll read out some more shortly. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, to a cruel crime that's targeting Chinese communities around the world, known as blessing scams. They're usually carried out by women in groups of three, approaching people in asking for help in Cantonese. Tuay Van Wynne's mum was one of these victims after she was targeted here in London. Tuay set out on a mission to expose this practice on social media and has

since heard from other victims all around the country. Morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. For listeners who aren't aware about this, tell us about this blessing scam. What happens exactly? What do they do? So, like you said, they operate in packs of three. They are of East Asian heritage, so Chinese, and they have the command of the Cantonese language. And what they do is they go to local markets across London or the UK where EC elders usually do their shopping, like groceries, you know, fish and all that stuff. And they kind of target women around 40 to late 60s of Chinese heritage. And one woman approaches them and kind of gains the sort of conversation in the language to see

they can communicate and they kind of like request for help saying you know I'm looking for a doctor who can speak Chinese can you help and based on that very first interaction they kind of gauge can this person communicate with me and can I guess in their heads can we manipulate this person in some way and somehow they signal to a second woman who's not too far away to come over and this is another woman um round about the same age and starts communicating saying you know um I heard that like you're looking for a doctor I'm also looking for a doctor to do some healing um and it kind of concocted this story that you know they they need this help desperately and they're asking for the help of the

person the victim that they have approached once they've established that trust and engaged with a conversation at this point is very speculative which is what I will elaborate a little bit later is that it's very unclear on how they've managed to I guess grasp the victim's attention and trust and there's a possibility that there could be a drug involved called the devil's breath, which is a drug from Colombia, and it's a form, a flower that's derived from a flower and made into a powder that if you spit in or spout, you're under someone's influence.

There's no evidence of that, though, is there? There's no evidence currently,, though, is there? There's no evidence currently, but there is a lot of documentation and articles around the drug and what it can do. The misfortune is that there's no science behind it at the moment. So there's other women involved, so they convince the Chinese woman that they need their help. So what actually happened to your mum?

What was your mum's situation? That was exactly what happened. She was in Upton Park Market. First woman approached, asked for help. Second woman came moments later. Once they've established that communication, they take her out of the market where there's a third woman who somehow knows what

they're doing said i i actually know someone who can help i know a doctor and then they spend um i don't know up to an hour talking about um evil spirits and then they start to instill this fear into the victim saying actually you so in my mom's case they said you've walked along this road where there's been a lot of deaths and an evil spirit has attached themselves to you and it's going to cause your family harm, specifically your son. So to get rid of this, we need to perform a blessing where you have to gather all of your sort of valuables, including gold and money, and then we'll perform that ritual and from that they kind of the second woman who approached my mom went all the way to my mom's house which is 20 minutes away by bus went into my mother's house and instructed her to gather all of her belongings and that is off value so that's all her gold um any money she had in the house which is all her life savings so for those

who don't know most ec women have their life savings in the house and is all her life savings so for those who don't know most EC women have their life savings in the house and they don't really believe in banks um so they put that in a bag then they lead her back out um to where they first met into a quieter street and perform the blessing within this blessing they exchange bags um and instruct they instructed my mother instruct other victims to not speak to anyone for a few days switch off your phone go home don't look in a bag don't open it for another week or two but when my mum left them I guess she kind of woke up of that whatever trance that she was under and at the bus stop she opened the bag and realized it was just two bottles of water and newspaper

she ran back and they were obviously gone but it didn't really sink until two days later where she rung all of us her children and told us and we were just absolutely panicked what was your reaction I mean I've never heard my mum in that state before there was fear there was there was pain there was anguish it was was really scary. Yeah, it was really horrible. It's interesting, isn't it, that it's women coming up to women. Is that something, what was it particularly about this scam that made you think this is how they got my mum? I mean, I think it's the knowledge that older women

hold the valuables at home and the trust of other women of the same heritage to approach and gain that trust. So I think that's kind of like the very simple line of operation of this is how we're going to manipulate and trick women in the EC community. What sort of impact did this have on your mum afterwards? It's been devastating. So it happened late May. And since then, my mum, you know, it took her a few weeks to just eat properly because she had this overriding sense of shame, sadness and loss. And it took, I mean, even to this day, like she's struggling with sleep

because she keeps waking up and having all these emotions of like, why did I do it? Why did I follow these women? I can't believe I've lost all of the money I've saved over the years for my grandchildren, my children. So it's been it's been a journey and very emotional to see the one woman who, you know, has held you for as long as you know, you've been to be crippled by this heinous crime yeah I can imagine I've been thinking about it a lot all morning when I knew we were going to be talking to you and it's almost you know for a woman and you know migrant community and it's within your own community and it's a woman that's doing it like there's so many layers to this to the devastation of this scam and uh what it must do

to and how unnerving it must be and unsettling uh but you didn't just sit back and let this lie did you you've taken this and made it public why yeah i mean like i mean i mean it was seeing those emotions coming out from my mom and like what if this has actually happened to other people and um when i started investigating myself um i well my brother actually came across uh an ex um notification that it happened to another woman in in romford so we contacted her and then another woman contacted her because of her um ex um uh tweet i can't tweet x i still get um i'll say yeah and then it kind of spiraled from that i'm just thinking seeing how it impacted my mom imagine those who don't have their they don't have children or family to support them so they're alone they're scared they're feeling shame and i

really wanted to help them as well as my mum so I started this GoFundMe campaign to look at funding therapy for those victims. Because there's more than one bit like what you discovered is it's happening all over the world. It's all over the world all over the UK it's it's actually really crazy how big it is. So what should quickly people look out for? If anyone's approaching you to places that you frequently go and they're asking for help in Cantonese or Chinese um walk away um if you can take out your phone and get a picture of them so we can actually get their faces uh to a van win thank you very much for speaking to me this morning thank you so much thank you eight four eight four four Now, Italian author Maddalena Vagliotanet's acclaimed debut novel, Untold Lessons, is a story she was born to write based on events that took place in her family decades ago.

The novel explores how a tragic incident prompts the disappearance of a much-loved teacher and what the double mystery tells us about the lives and attitudes of the people living in her local community at the time. The themes of this novel include suicide. I asked Madalena about the inspiration for her story. The novel is based actually on a true story that I then transformed and transposed into fiction. But it was actually a family story that I wasn't really told. I was told tons of anecdotes and stories as I was a child. But this one was somehow a taboo story. And so I think I reconstructed it little by little, overhearing conversation and through hints here and there. And it was the story of the cousin of my grandfather, who used to be a teacher before I was born. And she was not married,

she didn't have children by choice. And I knew that years before my birth, she vanished. And she clearly came back because she was there. She was very close and dear to me. But they wouldn't tell me and she wouldn't talk about it. And they wouldn't tell me what happened and why she vanished and how she survived for days and how she came back. And then I started asking when I was older to my mother and I eventually even found newspaper articles about the events.

What was it about this story that captured your imagination though? So there is this woman who suddenly, instead of going to school one day, in the novel, she goes into the woods and hides there. And it is because a student of hers, like a girl, an 11-year-old girl, she didn't go to school regularly. The teacher had to tell the parents there was an argument and she jumped off the window into a stream and died. And the teacher felt responsible for it, although she didn't do anything wrong. And I think what was interesting for me is that there is a mystery in this story, although it doesn't really have to do with facts, like the events were really clear. But the mystery has to do with human motives and behavior and a sense of guilt and

the pressure that this woman felt on her shoulders. And this is something that can't be fully solved, even if you try to investigate that. So what was intriguing is that I tried to lead an investigation, not on the facts, but rather on the human condition, really, of this lady and the girl, of course. Although you did go off and research the real-life event, didn't you? You were trawling through newspapers.

Yes, I did, because I wanted to know how people would talk about it at the time and would try to explain that and make sense of it in a way. So that was really interesting to me. There is definitely a value, I think, in trying to understand human acts, but not trying to give a simple, straightforward explanation that, you know, you get it. How can you understand the suicide of an 11-year-old girl? How can we make sense of it?

We can't really, but there is a value in trying to understand it without judging it. And that's actually where I was going to head to next to ask you, because you said that, because obviously you did all this research about the real life yes death of the girl and you said that it was quite strange the the articles that you were reading what did you sort of they were because i think well it's really hard to write and i understand that about it's even hard to talk about these classes yeah um and of course you've really seen the you know a little town in the 70s and how, for example, it was somehow important that both the protagonists of these stories were, this story were two women, really, like the teacher, who was a woman who could, who was not like the, she was a bit of an outsider, really, although she was respected as a teacher. But again, being not married without children. So these newspaper articles would say things like, oh, she was a great teacher,

really loved by students and colleagues. And yet, perhaps the fact that she didn't have a family on her own made her unstable I mean we're still discussing the same thing right now right exactly women with cats yes exactly the child that the child has come the chat lady um or the fact that the that the the girl was on the threshold of adolescence and how that was really probably also making her unstable. And yes, and I think what was also interesting is that this teacher, this lady found a way to fit in society through teaching. And yet when she felt that she failed as a teacher, she was completely like the failure was so huge that her whole identity was based on being a a teacher. She was completely like, the failure was so huge that her whole identity was based on being a good teacher. And then she was totally like adrift. She kind of detached from

society and she felt she didn't have a place in there anymore. And somehow I thought that the student could have understood from her teacher that even a woman that is not particularly, that doesn't tick all the boxes can still fit in, but it didn't happen somehow. And so they were both, I think, were very connected in this story, actually, and they are kind of mirroring each other in a way.

Also because not being married, not having children, the teacher doesn't even have a love story or a sexual life. each other in a way. Also, because not being married, not having children, never, well, the teacher doesn't even have a love story, or a sexual life. So in a way, she's, she's an adult, but she never fully grew up in a sense. So she really mirrors herself in the in the student also. Yeah. So what does the book tell us about the roles and the options available to women? Well, I think back then it was perhaps even harder. But as you said, we are still debating about maternity and having children, not having children, or about how women enter adolescence, which is a very delicate and fragile phase. And I still remember how I felt both ashamed and thrilled and disgusted and electrified by the fact that my body was changing so much. And therefore, also the gaze of other people on my body were different. And that's something that is very hard to face if you don't have support somehow around you.

And definitely, I think Giovanna, the girl, didn't have support. And that's the girl in the book. Yes. And so by contrast, how important it is for girls, for example, to not to feel ashamed to talk about that or even not to. Like Giovanna is really like angry when her mother tries to talk to her about how she's changing and things like that and how it's important to have like a language to talk about it that it's shared somehow. How does it feel to have written this book? How are you feeling today about it? I think it was really important to me to face this story in a way because it was haunting me for so many years. And I realized that I've been thinking about it since I was probably 10 years old. So more or less Giovanna's age.

On the other hand, again, I don't think I'm done with it. Even if I after I wrote the novel, I think it will stay with me. And now that you've written the book and it's out there for other people to read and interpret and feel you what was haunting you can now is haunting all of us yeah um what's that experience like um have people managed to have you heard had reactions to the book yes well it's also interesting to talk about the book abroad because it was translated into different languages. Yeah, how's that? And I'm really puzzled sometimes because I feel like this story could have happened in many different places, really.

It's very local in a way, little village in northern Italy at the foot of the mountains. But there are some things about rural communities everywhere at that time that is really universal in a way. And it's interesting that many people, for example, in my hometown remember this story and had quite, maybe they didn't think about it for years and years, but then they came to me and said, Oh, you know what, I actually, I kind of forgot about it. But then when I saw the book, it all came back. And because also, I think at the time, and now to probably, it's really hard to talk about painful stories.

And especially in that context, like my grandparents, they were not used to talk about sorrow, pain, their troubles. They would just keep going. That was their answer, just keep going. And so it's not easy to bring it back. But I am surprised that no one felt that I did something wrong or somehow, you know, because I was a big kid. I'm sure. But I guess because we talk a bit about trauma on this program

and that generation, your grandparents' generation, they're not the generation who know how to deal with it. Sometimes it takes the generation who have the resources. Yes, absolutely. You know, sometimes, I mean, what do your parents think that you've... Well, my mother was very involved in the process because since I live abroad, I wrote the novel while I was living

in Berlin and then the Netherlands. So I asked my mother to help me find the newspaper articles because she still lives in the town. So she was involved. And I think for her, it was a very touching process because she was a child at the time. And on the other hand, I think the book exists because the teacher is no longer alive. And also the fact that she didn't, so she never told what happened really. She never told where she went. Definitely not in the woods. That's the fiction part. The real teacher never said where she went, where she hid, how she survived, what she drank. Probably she hid in a church. That's what the police thought.

And to survive, she drank the holy water from the church. But she never told that. And I think that gave me space to write the novel. If she had told every detail of her story, I think I wouldn't have written it. It gave me the space I needed to fill in with imagination and with reflection. So what's next? And more novels, I think. You said that this story is going to stay with you, but I'm sure there's lots of stories in you. Yes, hopefully. Yes, I think so. I have a couple of stories in mind. Are they haunting you in the same way? I love the expression that this haunted me since the age of 10.

I think so, in different ways, but they are, yes. One is set in like 1944, so farther back in the past. And the other one is a more contemporary story. And they're both very close to me in a way, but both, I want to write fiction really. So their novels, I will, yes, treat them as fiction, but their roots are very close to my experience. More books to look forward to from Maddalena Vaglio-Tenet. She was talking about her book Untold Lessons. And if you have been affected by any of the topics in that discussion,

the BBC Actionline website offers advice and support. Now, are women's Super League football clubs overlooking female English coaches? That's the question that the BBC's senior women's football reporter, Emma Sanders, has been asking. And she joins me now to tell us more. The Football Association has an aim of 75%

female coaches in the league, but the season started with only four of the 12 clubs having female managers, two of them English. Morning Emma why isn't there more homegrown talent coming through? I think it's such a complicated question and you know I spoke to the FA's Dan Clements as part of this he's in charge of the coaching development within the association and also the Birmingham City manager Amy Merricks and we explored a lot of topics within it there's multiple factors some such as foreign managers obviously wanting to come into the league because of the expansion and the growth of the WSL and generally women's coaches

just not having as many opportunities as male coaches within football, which is obviously an existing cultural issue or discussion, if you like. And just generally, the female coaches, and particularly the English ones, not having perhaps the experience that their male counterparts have had in football, and I mean football as a whole, so both the men's game and the women's game. And Amy Merricks, as I said, the Birmingham City coach, who is one of those those few English coaches that have come through the system made a really interesting point about there just being more data on coaches perhaps abroad so clubs like Brighton for example where

she was in an interim charge for two on two occasions their entire recruitment process is based upon um stats so you need coaches who have got data of coaching teams where it's based upon that you know that that stat so possession based football for example so um that was really interesting and something that you know the FA certainly would want to try and improve going forward. So is it a problem of its own success really? Yeah absolutely I think that's very fair to say you know while foreign players come into the league foreign coaches will automatically have existing relationships with a lot of those players from obviously previous clubs and also international football and the more money that comes into the league makes it a more appealing job first and foremost but for coaches all around the world not just english coaches

um and and inevitably as clubs expand their recruitment models it means they're looking further afield they're looking at coaches that are being developed in australia being developed in america and obviously elsewhere in Europe. So yes, it is a product of the success. And, you know, we've seen that be the case in the Premier League as well. Some of the top coaches in the men's game in the English League have ended up being, you know, foreign coaches. But the traffic does go both ways, doesn't it? Because Emma Hayes, the former Chelsea manager, went to coach the US team this year. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the main questions really that I was discussing is why are the

English coaches that then do come through not staying in the WSL? Emma Hayes wasn't the first one. We saw Casey Stoney, the former Manchester United manager. She went over to the States and coached club football there. Laura Harvey, who was previously at Arsenal, very well-respected English female coach, also went over to the States. So that is a question. And I think the answer...

Why do you think they're doing it? It's probably that they don't get paid as much. You know, the NWSL is obviously a league that has existed for such a long time now. It's got great financial, you know financial positives to it. The marketing and their sponsorship is very high for U.S. soccer in America. So that, for me, is one of the main reasons. Is this trend reflected in lower leagues, too?

Are there more opportunities there? I'm thinking about what the landscape is for coaches generally when it comes to gender. And are they coming up through the system yeah well again because of the lack of data we don't really know much at all from the top two tiers um aside from the top two tiers so lower down in the pyramid that is an issue it's just generally having access to to women's football clubs um knowing what types of employees they have the history of employees they have but in in the Women's Championship, for example, so the second tier in English football,

there is a really strong pool of English female coaches that aren't necessarily in head coach roles. There are five females out of the 11 clubs. A handful of them are English, but there are a lot of assistant coaches. There are a lot of analysts and also there are a lot of um analysts and also you know set piece coaches for example that are that are English females so there are experienced coaches in there and there is a talent pool and they are getting the opportunities it's just about making sure they then make that next step into the WSL and providing that pathway that I think

is proving to be the biggest obstacle so far. And what about women from ethnic minorities coming up as coaches? Yeah, and this is a real issue and something I definitely have been exploring and I'm looking to do more on because, you know, Amy Merricks, as I mentioned before, came through the system at Brighton and she was under Hope Powell, who was at the time the only black coach, both female and male, in the whole of the WSL. There are no black coaches now. So that is a real concern. You know, Hope Powell was a former England manager in charge of the Lionesses. And there hasn't been any other black coaches even linked with the job since she left, you know, over a decade ago now so it is it is a concern um certainly for for the fa and certainly for english football as a whole that they're they are just not bringing through

you know these black coaches there are a couple of talented coaches ex-players that are now being put through some really stringent um coaching schemes that the fa has set up so for example former england defender an Anita Asante is one of the most high profile names she is currently working with the England under 23s and she's previously worked at Bristol City um so she is one of those that is obviously going through her qualifications and building her experiences but yeah the lack of black coaches is is absolutely shocking to be honest with you and what are women coaches telling you about this? What have they said to you? Yeah, again, it's really interesting having these conversations.

I've had them on and off record with several coaches across the top two tiers. And I think they have similar thoughts to Amy Merrick's, where the qualification processes that the FA have put in place, they genuinely believe are really, really strong. A lot of coaches have really benefited from the courses. There's been a lot of specific female and particularly English coach courses that the FA have set up recently.

So I think they believe they're being supported in that. But the next step is basically the clubs taking risks on them. And that's where they feel they're not quite getting the opportunities. They've got the qualifications. They feel they're ready. They just need the clubs to say, OK, well, let's give you a go. And then they can prove their experience and they don't think they're having that.

And why are they not doing that? What's it going to take? A change of mindset? Is it sexism? What's happening? I think it's multiple factors. One of them is that existing culture that we are just not used to seeing, you know, women in high positions in football. So one of them is, you know, if you're in a recruitment room and there's no women on the board, then naturally, you know, a lot of men, a lot of them tend to be white men, are looking at other white men.

And that is a problem. So it's diversity within the recruitment process itself then it also comes down to the fact that a lot of male coaches will be exposed to those experiences from a younger age because there's more of a youth pathway in the men's game which there isn't you know that's still very much developing in the women's game so you know let's say you are recruiting for a position and you have a male coach who has got 10 years experience working within youth teams and only you know a female who maybe has similar qualifications but has only been coaching for a year then it's really difficult to expect clubs to then take that risk and at the end of

the day they have to win football matches. Well talking about it and writing about it and drawing people's attention to it should hopefully make people think about it and then change the system. Emma Sanders, thank you very much for speaking to us. That's BBC senior sportswoman's football reporter, Emma. That's nearly the end of the programme. I'm going to end with one of your messages. I just want to give a shout out to my mum

who's getting married for the first time in January at the age of 60. She and my stepdad have been together for 20 years and are getting married now purely for the financial reasons highlighted by Claire. So I found it really great to hear this being discussed today. There's going to be lots discussed tomorrow, including I'll be speaking to the singer Elkie Brooks. We'll be discussing her farewell tour and her 80th birthday.

So join me tomorrow at 10am. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. week I investigate one of your suggested wonder products something that's promising to make you happier healthier or greener the cost is almost 200 pounds it's out of my range I'm afraid the new series of sliced bread including our 100th episode where we'll be investigating the products promising to help slow the effects of aging we can hopefully slow down the aging process and hopefully make people live healthier for longer. Slice bread with me, Greg Foot, on Radio 4 and Listen First on BBC Sounds. complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know

it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.