Woman's Hour - Midwife shortages, Dating at 81, Jackie Mag anniversary

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

The number of midwives in England has increased by just 7% over the last year and some NHS Trusts in England have more than one in five midwifery jobs vacant, according to BBC research. The Royal College of Midwives says staffing gaps have to close. The BBC’s Health Correspondent Catherine Burns joins Clare McDonnell to talk about what her investigation into maternity units in England has discovered, and to share the story of Farzana, who had to give birth on her own after midwives said they were too busy to answer her calls.Carole Stone must have one of the best address books ever. A former producer of BBC Radio 4’s Any Questions, for years Carole has run 'salons' and parties bringing together hundreds of interesting people - politicians, actors, journalists. Carole’s partner, the TV broadcaster Richard Lindley, died four years ago. Carole joins Clare to discuss how and why she is looking for another soulmate at the age of 81. Could the next leader of North Korea be a woman? Clare gets the latest from lead correspondent at NK News, Jeongmin Kim, and hears more about what life is like for women on the ground with North Korea expert, Professor Hazel Smith.As the number of pupils missing a significant amount of their education is about double the level it was before the pandemic, Clare is joined by Ellie Costello, the executive director of Square Peg, a not-for-profit which helps families that struggle with school attendance. It’s 60 years this week since Jackie, the magazine for teenage girls, was first published. At its peak, it was selling more than a million copies a week. To celebrate the anniversary, Clare is joined by Nina Myskow, Jackie’s first female editor, and Wendy Rigg, a teenage fan who achieved her dream of working on Jackie.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. This morning we'll be looking at the shortage of midwives in England. BBC research has found the country has a shortfall of around 2,500 midwives and even though the number of full-time midwife posts in England has gone up by seven percent in the last decade the overall NHS workforce has increased by 34 percent whilst the majority of births are safe. Today we will hear the story of a mother left on a hospital ward who ended up delivering her premature 28 week old baby alone after repeatingly trying to flag her distress to medics and nurses.

Was there a magazine that helped you through your teenage years that gave you a window to the adult world? The reason I ask, the teen magazine Jackie celebrates its 60th anniversary this very week. It was one of the first magazines to explicitly recognise being a young person, somewhere between a child and a young woman. We'll hear from a former editor and a cover star as well. But I want to hear from you too, what got you through your teenage years? Was it a magazine like Jackie? Maybe it was a book, a radio programme? Do get in touch. We got a huge response to this on Woman's Hour yesterday. Children who are labelled as school refusers. Following on from the government's plans to fund more attendance hubs and monitors across the country,

today, Shadow Education Secretary Bridget Philipson has outlined Labour's plans. We'll hear from a mother who'll say we need a wholesale change in attitude to how we help children who don't go to school and also how we describe them. Could North Korean leader Kim Jong-un be lining up his daughter to take over after him? Intelligence services in South Korea have hinted that is a possibility after analysing photos and also the language he uses when referring to her. And if she did take over, would it herald a new era for women there? Plus, dating in your 80s. We'll hear from a woman with more than 55,000 people in her contacts. Don't feel inadequate. She is a professional networker, but she says she cannot find a man

and she's lonely. Are you searching for a soulmate in your 80s? Maybe you've lost your lifetime soulmate and think, what's the point? Or maybe you still have the desire for new adventures with new people. You can text the programme on that or teen magazines or maybe your family dealing with a school refuser as well. Here are the numbers you need. The text number 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website as well, or you can send me

a WhatsApp message or a voice note. This is the number you need, 03700 100 444. Looking forward to hearing from you this morning. Now it's where life first begins but regulators say most NHS maternity units in England are not safe enough. The Care Quality Commission said in November that maternity units in England have the poorest safety ratings of any hospital service it inspects. BBC's health correspondent Catherine Burns has been investigating maternity services, talking to mothers and filming in the maternity unit of Croydon University Hospital. Delighted to say Catherine joins me in the Woman's Hour studio now. Good morning. Morning, how are you? Very well, thank you so much for coming in. You've been looking at maternity safety over the last few years, so give us the overall picture. Yeah, you spoke then about the 67% in November. We actually

started looking at this the year before that. So in September 2022, I first sort of started crunching this data from the Care Quality Commission. And we found then that 55% of maternity units in England and Wales weren't safe enough. At the time, that seemed really shocking. Then in November, we did the follow up and it was 67%. Since then, there's been another slight decline. It's now 70%. Seven in 10 maternity units in England are not always meeting safety standards. Now, I don't want to terrify anyone out there. So let's put that in a bit of context. That doesn't mean that disasters are always going to happen. It means that there is more chance they're going to happen. You know, the vast majority of births, as you've said, in the UK tend to be safe, but things are not right on the ground. So why is it? Why are maternity units having such problems? Is it all down to staffing? It's not all down to staffing. There's lots of reasons. Some of them are quite nebulous things like culture, but staffing is a massive part of it. It's pretty

much accepted that in England, we're 2,500 midwives short. So I wanted to see how that staffing levels changed over the last 10 years. So in 2013, since then, we've had a 7% increase in midwives. To give you a bit of context, the overall NHS workforce in that time, it's gone up by 34%. Doctors have gone up by 35%. Nurses, it's something like 24%. So you can see that midwifery is just not growing at the same level, despite there being this lack. Now, no one is saying we need 35% more midwives. Actually, births are going down, but they're becoming more complex. We're having more C-sections. So these things are important. We wanted to see as well, like break it down to how this kind of crunches down on the ground.

So we asked NHS trusts about the number of midwives they're employed, they're budgeted to have and how many they've actually got working. On average, we found that they are 25 midwives short in each trust. So that gives you an idea of what midwives are dealing with. And, you know, there's a vicious circle here because because existing staff, they come into work, dealing with staff shortages, they feel burnt out, they're more likely to quit. People who are thinking about midwifery as a career are going to be less tempted by it. You know, I spoke to one midwife, I've spoke to loads of midwives for this. And they all use the same word whenever you talk to them, they all use without fail the word privilege when they're describing being there, seeing someone

giving birth, helping them through those moments. But they're really open about the challenges they face as well. And one woman who really clearly loved her job quit at 35 because she said, I didn't feel safe going into work. I couldn't give women that level of care. I couldn't live with myself if something went wrong. So you can see the problems there, recruiting new midwives and retaining the ones in the job. And for all of those issues you just outlined, what does that mean for patients? What's the knock on? Well, like we've said, you know, we don't want to scare people. Most births are okay. You know, I was really lucky. You said I was in Croydon. I witnessed one of the everyday miracles that happened there when I just bumped into a lady

in the corridor and said, oh, what are you doing? She said, I'm about to have a caesarean section. Come in and film it. And we saw, you know, it was the most amazing example of NHS care, this surgical team, doctors, anaesthetists, midwives working in harmony, this baby being born, everyone being delighted. That kind of thing happens a lot. But sometimes things do go wrong. And when problems happen in maternity units, obviously, they're deeply affecting. So one woman I've spoke to recently is Farzana Kadeem. Now her story, she was actually an inpatient in a maternity unit because her waters had broken early so they were keeping her there, keeping her under close observation because she'd had lots of previous c-sections and her baby was

going to be so premature they said you're a high-risk pregnancy no matter what happens you have to have a c-section but after 10 days in hospital she started to have contractions the pain it was you know like it was getting stronger and stronger and i was like in so much pain and i keep ringing the bell and about like 11 20 the midwife came and she said that listen you keep ringing the bell medicine is not working on you just let the medicine work on you you're not in labor doctor check you please do not ring the bell because we are busy and that time you know my disappointment start and I didn't ring the bell because I for somehow I believe that they are right but my pain was saying something else so I waited about like 20-30 minutes I did not ring the bell because I was like a

kind of like sad the contractions they were getting strong at that time the pain was unbearable unbearable so at that time I believe that yes I am in labor so I rang the bell and it's nearly 100 times I rang the bell nobody came and they did it on purpose because they think that I am not actually, I'm like overreacting or I'm not having birth and I just keep complaining about the pain. It was my husband all the time. He was with me. Nobody, nobody see me in two hours. And it doesn't mean I wasn't ringing the bell.

I keep ringing the bell, keep ringing the bell. Because that was my only hope that somebody will come and help me. Did anyone come and help her? No, they didn't. So you've heard Farzana saying that she was ringing the bell over and over again. In the end, she delivered her baby in the hospital with no medical help at all, just her husband in the room. And you can hear how distressing this was. I was just laying on the bed on one side and when the baby came out, the thing is I didn't push the baby because I was so much exhausted. I didn't push the baby.

Baby came out on its own, yeah, and my husband, he was actually rubbing my back and he was the one who saw the baby and he just, you you know run for the help when the baby came out I was you know I lost my senses at that time all the story my husband told me after but I think I was so exhausted and the pain was too much for me. So I did not remember anything. The only thing I remember that the pain stopped, the contraction, they stopped. And that's it. And I was at that moment, I lost my senses. It could be because of the blood loss. I lost a huge amount of blood. After this, my husband told

me that they were like really, you know, like scared over there. They were like screaming, oh, she's losing too much blood. And they took me to the operation theatre. The most dangerous thing is that she was born before the breathing age. It was like one week before the breathing age. So baby came out on its own and then he ran for the help and then they came. And when they came, she was breathing. I think I'm so lucky.

Really traumatic to listen to, let alone go through. What happened? Was the baby OK? Yes, I have seen the baby. She's now a toddler. Kadeem is a happy, healthy toddler. Farzana, as she said there, she needed surgery because she lost so much blood. Now, physically, she's OK. But actually, I think it's taken this long for her to kind of get angry and she's traumatised now. You know, she was telling me at one stage a doctor said to her, it's a miracle that you and the baby are OK. And she said, the doctor, I didn't come here for a miracle. This was a mistake.

I also asked Farzana about one other really important element to her story, because as an Asian woman, she is twice as likely to die in or around childbirth as a white mother. For black women, the risk is even higher. It's four times higher. So I asked her about this. I would like to know if there was any white woman on that bed, in that room, and the same situation, how they treat her. So I'm not thinking about that point, that I've been treated like this because I was Asian, but it could be different if there is a white woman in that room with the same situation. So she could be treated different. I think you can hear me now that is good so the baby was okay which is good and it's important but the race issue is important as well um Farzana's story a difficult difficult one to listen to but what's being done to fix all of this well when it comes to the staffing levels

there are some genuine glimmers of good news here um there's progress and there is a plan to hire and recruit more midwives. So the Department of Health, it's investing an additional £165 million a year on maternity and neonatal care, and that will soon go up to £186 million. Part of that is to increase the number of midwifery posts available. One really interesting thing with the lack of midwives is not that people don't want to be midwives. There is always more people applying for training places than there are places on courses. But the government is opening up more training places. And the aim is they kind of think by about 2028, they'll have the right numbers. Then there's the kind of element of keeping midwives in the job. This is obviously a bit harder to do. It's all about culture. It's about flexible work. It's about pay.

But there is recognition on this. And I spoke to England's chief midwifery officer, Kate Brintworth. She's actually quite optimistic for the future. She says that things are improving. We've already got 700 more midwives in place. We're retaining them. Staff are saying to them that things are starting to feel better. Thank you so much, Catherine. Thanks for bringing us such an important story there. That's the BBC's health correspondent, Catherine Burns. And of course, if you have an experience that you would like to share with us, you can text the programme 84844. Many of you texting on all manner of subjects.

We will be talking about lots of reaction to school refusal already. We're going to be talking about this later in the programme. The Labour Party has outlined its plans to deal with so-called school refusers although I know many of you are unhappy about that label we'll be speaking to a mother who is also unhappy about that label too she has two children who actually had real difficulty getting into school and getting the support she needs this text and my child has been struggling since return to school after Covid and schools are not able to cope or understand with the child's needs. So that's just one text, but many, many other texts is coming in.

You can text us 84844 with your stories of school refusal. We will talk about that a little bit later on in the programme. Now, it is 60 years this week since Jackie, the magazine for teenage girls, was first published. It was a profoundly different environment back then, a world without the internet, without multi-channel TV, mobile phones, or even social media. At its peak, Jackie was selling more than a million copies a week. Joining me now, Nina Mishkoff, Jackie's first female editor, and Wendy Rigg who

was a teenage fan who achieved her dream of working on Jackie. Welcome both of you. Hello. Hello. It's just Nina let's start with you it's incredible just to read that figure a million copies a week. There are TV shows who would die for that figure in viewership. It was such an impactful thing wasn't it Jackie? It was extraordinary because when you consider that it was aimed at a small proportion of the markets of 10, 11 to 15-year-old girls, it was absolutely saturation coverage. But as you mentioned, it was a very different world back then. You know, what did a young girl have in those days? She might have a radio.

She certainly didn't have a television. That was downstairs in the living room where she'd watch with her parents possibly. And there was a telephone, but it'd be plugged into the wall and probably had a special table in the hallway. We had one of those. Yeah, exactly. So it was a very much a black and white world. And Jackie coming, you know, every Thursday was like a kind of an open sesame into a kind of technicolor world basically showed possibilities showed other people and in a way it was early social media because it connected young people together in that they were all reading the same thing. Wendy you became a cover star but before that you actually worked on the magazine didn't you you and Nina go back a long

way. Yeah well I was a fan in the first place I obviously read the magazine, didn't you? You and Nina go back a long way. Yeah, well, I was a fan in the first place. I obviously read the magazine in my teens and put the posters on my wall and wore the clothes and copied the fashion drawings, as all the readers did. There was a great affection for the fashion drawings. And we all got into trouble at school for not drawing the boring still life, but copying these drawings instead. And I guess really that was where I found my love for fashion. Yeah. How did you elevate then from helping out and being a fan of the magazine to actually making it to the cover? I think I put you on the cover, didn't I? You did. I've got Nina to thank for that.

I'm very glad to have the opportunity to thank you for that. Because actually, so I started as an assistant on the magazine and just doing the general jobs, the letters page. And then Nina asked me to be on the cover and went to London. Lovely, young, gorgeous, full of enthusiasm and full of life and vitality. And she just kind of summed up a reader, a perfect Jackie reader. I was going to say, Nina, is that the point? But you put somebody on.

It was one of those magazines. It wasn't sort of aspirational what you put on the front cover. It was somebody who looked and felt a bit like you. Yes. aspirational what you put on the front cover it was somebody who who looked and felt a bit like you yes i mean we used to use professional teenage models but but wendy could have could have been a professional teenage model so that's why we used her so it it it was you know in the in the sort of previous incarnation of the magazine they'd sometimes put pop stars on the cover like david cassidy or donny osmond and i think the highest sales were ever when we put David Cassidy on. But I felt it should be a young woman who reflected the readership. Well, you certainly did that. And it's been great, because I know you've got a lot of magazines

that you've brought in today. And it's been fantastic thumbing through all of them. You became Nina, the first female editor back in 1974. It was originally set up by men. So what changed then? What did you want to change? I actually didn't want to change much about the magazine because it was actually, it was the brainchild of a wonderful man called Gordon Small, who was the least likely person, if you ever saw him, he was a great big bluff, ginger bearded, you know, pretty much unreconstructed ex-engineer from Army service. And I don't know how it came out of his brain, but it did. And he set the mold and he somehow knew what young girls wanted to read. And the thing he instilled in all of us who were young journalists then

was to know who your reader is and to give them what they want. And that's exactly what we did. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because obviously that's advice that must have stood you in good stead for your entire career. Understand your audience. Understand your audience. But it was a kind of a joyful thing to do because it sounds pompous, but I tried to have a sense of responsibility. There were other teenage magazines who were kind of, you know, sort of floated on a trend.

It's very easy to make money out of that age group. It's very easy to because they're very impressionable, very vulnerable and you can sell them a lot of stuff. And hopefully because my mum was a schoolteacher and she always said I was a schoolteacher wasted, which used to infuriate me. But I was very aware that we had a huge responsibility and that we should try and balance, give them what they wanted, romance, fashion, beauty, boys, but to have a decent problem page, a proper problem page.

I wanted to come on to that. Cathy and Claire problem page. Were you involved in any way in that, Wendy? I wasn't, no. I worked on the fashion pages. That was my... Okay, you worked in fashion. But what was the difference having that kind of problem page, do you think, in a magazine,

which had never really been an offering to girls of that age before? I think there were a lot of problems that girls couldn't even talk to their mums about then. And so that was the place where people went to for, you know, to sort out problems that were really affecting them, worrying them. It was the only place. It was like a friend. Yeah, we tried to be like a big sister, basically. Not to lead them, but to walk alongside them. And, you know, we used to get perhaps 400, 500 letters a week,

which is an extraordinary amount of letters to the problem page. And I thought that if a little girl could get together pen, paper, an envelope, a stamp, express her feelings, ask for help, get it to a postbox, then she deserved an answer. But obviously, we didn't have the facilities to do four or five hundred answers a week in depth. So what I did was I instituted a series of leaflets of maybe 30, 35 leaflets that covered all the different permutations like, you know, anxiety about your parents or falling out with your best friend that kind of thing. There were never sexual problems because Jackie

was romance rather than sex and so what we did, every reader got a reply. They'd say, dear Claire, I'm sorry to hear about your problem with whatever and I've enclosed a leaflet but good luck with blah, blah, blah. That's very personal service.

Yes, because they were reaching, where else were young girls to go? You know, the problem may be the teacher at school, so you don't go to school. The problem may be your parents. So who do you talk to about that? There weren't any kind of organisations or facilities or set-ups. Wendy, you're nodding away there. Yeah mean it was a fantastic thing people on there's a fans

of jackie page on facebook which has 42 000 followers now and people are always talking about kathy and claire and and how much it meant to them that those pages were in the magazine you felt like the magazine cared about you. It was an older sister. It was a friend. Loads of people getting in touch on this, ladies. This is from Maggie. Started with Jackie magazine, early teens. Moved on to just 17 at around about 15,

then moved on to 19 at the age of 17. Then it was Cosmopolitan, of course. This text, Jackie was a favourite magazine of mine. Hunk of the week. Was that your idea, Nina? Terrence Stamp, Hugh Bennett, David Hemmings.

At one point, I sent off a story to Letter of the Week, a daydream fantasy involving Ilya Kuryakin. Kuryakin. Kuryakin, thank you. David McCollum.

The man from Uncle. Got a letter and also two pounds. So you gave awards as well. Was it a little bit too twee, Nina, when you think back? Because you say there was no sex, there was no sex advice. Isn't that exactly what young women needed? It was at the time what young women needed.

I think today's teenagers have been hothoused and they're all knowing they can get any information they want from their phones. But nothing changes in that there is still that time between being a child and being a young woman and a girl that kind of that kind of time where you find out who you are what your place is in the world how the world works that's the kind of growing up phase and it's a very vulnerable phase and that doesn't change and yet where are girls getting that help now where are they getting the time to to think about themselves and to

before they're kind of catapulted into this world where they're being constantly compared and they constantly compare themselves to impossible images on social media yes that's a precious point wendy do you mourn that era? It maybe seems a bit twee looking back, but the pressures that are visited on young women today. I do, because I have a granddaughter of 15 and I've said to her, would you like a magazine like this? And she would.

She said she would. She saw one with me on the cover and she said when she was young, she was about five, she said, was that a magazine about you? And I said no, it was about every girl in the land and so it was.

It's fantastic to have you both in the studio, thank you so much. We've had a huge response to this. I'll get through as many texts as I can. Nina Mishkoff and Wendy Rigg, thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thank you, a great pleasure. And the text number 84844 if you want to share your memories, as I say, we'll get through as many as we can. Now, following on from our coverage yesterday of increased school absences, as we speak, the Shadow Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, is giving a speech setting out Labour's plan to tackle school absences.

She says that a Labour government would make education a top priority. Their plan to tackle school attendance includes a register for homeschooled pupils, free breakfast clubs for all primary age children in England, more mental health support in schools and even the possible use of AI to spot trends in absence. Well yesterday the government announced a national drive to improve attendance after figures showed that the number of pupils missing a significant amount of their education is about double the level it was before the pandemic. As part of our look at this on the programme I spoke to Nadine Good, Director of Children's Services in North England for the

children's charity Barnardo's. She told me about a pilot they've been running involving attendance mentors in Middlesbrough. We've been working with around 335 children in education, engaging them back into the education as best as we possibly can using our mentor service. So far, and it's still early days, the results are looking extremely promising. So we've had an 82% increase in attendance from those children in the pilot area. And of those children, 66% have also reported an increase in their mental health and well-being by being re-engaged back in the school. And what does an attendance mentor actually do then? I mean, that's an incredible improvement. How do you achieve it? What do you practically do? Yeah, so I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Claire. It's practically do.

So this is a face-to-face intervention by and large. So this is a matching of a mentor, a qualified mentor employed by Barnardo's to be matched with a specific child and their family and building that trusted relationship through that adult so that they can navigate what can at times be a really challenging environment for children and families. Education, the family may be involved with children's social care, they may also have mental health or physical health needs and numerous barriers and being there as that trusted adult to help navigate and ensure that there's re-engagement for that child back into education. That's Nadine Good from Barnardo's talking to me yesterday about their attendance mentor pilot scheme.

She also spoke about the many reasons for children not being at school, including being a carer, for example, of a parent, poverty and health issues. So today we wanted to hear from a parent of a child who doesn't go to school, not because they don't want to, but because they can't. Ellie Costello is the executive director of Square Peg. It's a not for profit, which helps families that struggle with school attendance. She also has two older children who were what is known as school refusers. Delighted to say Ellie joins us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Let's start with that term then school refuses we've already had texts in from parents saying you know we don't

like that term others who may not be familiar with it what what is your view on it because I guess it does imply an element of choice doesn't it? Yeah and I think it's it really does pathologize the behavior in the child as well and often the drivers are external to the child and indeed the family home. So I think there's some improvements there. There is a new term that is gaining popularity called emotionally based school avoidance but even that really does place the issue as being in the child. My local area neighbouring to me in Coventry they just call it EMAS, extended non-attendance from school. And I think that is a much more helpful term because actually then what we're thinking about is any and all children who are struggling to attend, access and remain in education.

That could be truancy, exclusions or those who are in crisis or persistently absent. You heard Nadine Good from Barnardo's there she outlined which factors act as barriers to attendance we heard them financial mental health all kinds of things children becoming carers for their parents the list is long with your children did any of that factor in? Yeah so we presented with chronic and long-term genetic health conditions so we were sitting within the health umbrella and had no idea really that it would it would impact education but of course if a child is unwell and unable to access appropriate care it absolutely impacts but also developmentally impacted so those things such as being able to keep up with the curriculum and socialise and be well enough

really did factor in. And my youngest daughter was identified as a young carer, which is something that I had never heard of prior to entering this landscape. I think Nadine talked really eloquently about that support around the family and having an advocate and trusted helper to help you advocate and get through the systems because they are numerous and complex and often aren't joined up and that's part of the problem and if you have any additional disadvantage such as English isn't your second language isn't your first language or perhaps you don't have access to technology it's an absolute minefield and you have health or mental health needs yourself

so I think this is right but I do think it needs to be done with families and at the child's place and not a pace and not two families and the agenda can't be getting a child back into school as quickly as possible if school is part of the problem and that relationship is broken down and you exactly so you think a whole wholesale change needs to happen about how this whole issue is addressed because because it's multifaceted, as we've established, and the language is often very punitive. And the action is often punitive as well, isn't it? You're not there, therefore you are marked down or you are fined. Now, I know you've made suggestions to the Education Select Committee. What changes did you suggest?

So we're asking for three asks at the moment, and the government are looking quite carefully at things like the registration system. There's 23 registration codes, and depending on the culture and practice and ethos within your school, your child can be authorised or unauthorised in different ways. One of the things that we're calling for is a mental health and wellbeing absence code, because we've got too many schools who don't feel they can authorise absence due to mental ill health in children or don't believe that children can struggle with their mental health. In fact I was that parent, I didn't know an eight-year-old could develop a clinically disabling and diagnosable anxiety condition but believe me it happens and it's a terrifying thing when it does so I think we need

to draw parity of esteem and separate our physical and mental health absences and actually bring mental health challenges out of the shadows and when parents are reporting a mental health concern it's recorded as such that'll really help with data the other thing we're asking for is for an attendance code of practice and that would be in line with the admissions code or the send code of practice which is attached to the children and families act that's a far more robust rigorous piece of legislation that would be co-created and have parliamentary oversight at the moment we've got bits and scraps of guidance that are being chucked out left right and centre and actually they aren't fit for purpose.

We saw non-statutory guidance being released last year and that saw an increase in our membership of 15,000 families and an upsurge in fines and prosecutions. So actually guidance can be a massive lever in the wrong direction. So we're asking for a much more rigorous approach to attendance, including legislative oversight. And when we talk about truancy, there is this think tank, the Centre of Social Justice, calling for a review of fines and prosecution.

And they're saying there should be a support first system, which is the language, is the mood music coming out from both major parties in the country at the moment. We had Bridget Phillipson saying, well, you know, that's what they're going to do. They're going to make it child centred, family centred, should they get into government and have mental support in schools to a much greater extent than happens now. So what would you welcome on that front? Do you look at both parties and see any gaps in what they're offering? Absolutely. Well, so we welcome the change in language and the understanding that additional needs and external factors and mental health are all part of the picture.

This is welcome. And four or five years ago, when we first started campaigning, that really wasn't part of the national dialogue. So we like to think that we've had impact there. We are concerned that actually some of it is just tinkering around the edges. And what this is touching on is the fact that education broadly isn't working for the majority of children. We had Simon Jenkins writing about it in The Guardian yesterday. And our children are holding a mirror up to us. We have a fundamental breakdown in how we actually respect and respond to families and in fact I was just living listening to Kevin Collins who was preceding um Bridget Philipson for the Centre of Social Justice and he said that we aren't you know we do need to treat families and trust them and work with them as primary carers I think many

many families feel that they simply aren't seen that way. The DfE launched yesterday a Moments Matters campaign, which is, you know, he had a runny nose, send him in. And actually, that really does undermine the fact that parents are by and large making the right decisions and have the authority to make the right decisions on whether their child is fit to attend. So I do think we need to flip the narrative and start really changing the conversation around families because it's extremely deficit-based. We can't be trusted, we're pointy-elbowed, or we're lazy and we don't value education. That simply is not true.

Thank you so much for joining us, Ellie. You really started a conversation here on Woman's Hour today, a very important one. Ellie Costello there, Executive Director of Square Peg. That's a not-for-profit which helps families that struggle with school attendance. Just to read you this statement

from the Department of Education. We are building on our work to reduce absences by announcing 18 new attendance hubs, increasing the total to 32 to support 2,000 schools on top of £15 million to expand a pilot mentoring programme.

We've also issued guidance to schools about instances where a mental health issue is affecting attendance and include examples of effective practice where children with mental health need to have been supported more to attend that's a statement from the department of education so many of you getting in touch my daughter was an a-style student and never missed school until she started to have difficulties with mental health. She is not a school refuser and this bad advice is ruining children's lives and taking away their future. We finally found the strength to ignore the school advice and after 18 months our son is finally coming back from the brink and we can see our beloved son finding some peace and hope. Thank you so much for getting in touch.

You can still get your texts in to us. We love to read them. The text number you need is 84844. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Now, let's move on to talk about a story making headlines in the Far East. North Korea has always been a country shrouded in mystery, especially when it comes to its leader, Kim Jong-un. So much so that it's not even known how many children he officially has, which in a country that's ruled by a family dynasty, makes the question of who will take over next all the more interesting. Well, after analysing a series of very subtle hints, ranging from public appearances to the level of respect she received, South Korean National Intelligence Services, or NIS, think that his 10-year-old

daughter, Kim Joo-i, could be his most likely successor. This would make her the first female leader in the country's history. Could it be a new era then for North Korea? And what is life currently like for women on the ground? Well, in a moment, we'll hear more about that. But earlier, I spoke to Ji Jong-min Kim in Seoul. She is the lead correspondent at NK News. And I asked her what evidence there was that the young daughter could be the next in line. The daughter first appeared in 2022, November, alongside the leader Kim Jong-un when there was an ICBM launch, it was a big deal. But at the time, the spy agency caveated it as probably just a way of showing the importance of the next generation, Kim, rather than her as a successor. But recent signs such as Kim Joo-hye, the daughter, being in the spotlight in the photos a little more, sometimes even standing in the middle with Kim Jong-un or on her own solo.

Those were some of the signs because those signs, optics, it's very important in her dictatorship. And also there are small things like how, not small, but in North Korea it's big, there are honorifics in Korean grammar. And the honorifics only get used to leader, not any of the other officials, including the leader's sister. But Kim Joon-hye, the daughter, got the honorifics in the Korean grammar. Tell us about the honorifics then. What does that mean? How does it sound? Explain that one to us. Well, the honorific grammar, it ends differently. So they refer to the leaders or the leader's family sometimes in a way that's different

from just referring to officials. But I think the context is more important here because North Korean society, it's not like any other countries. It's partly dynastic like old time kingdoms and also partly socialist or more like North Korean socialism where they almost treat their leaders as gods.

So that's why only the leaders get certain honorifics. And from the NIS point of view, the spy agency's point of view, such honorifics or the optics of putting the very young daughter where the leader usually stands could be seen as an important sign for them. She has an older brother, a boy age 13. She's younger, she's just 10. So is it unusual for the son to be usurped in this way, if that's what we're talking about here? Two scenarios here. One, if it is true that there is an elder son, which was what the spy agency used to say last year, it would be very interesting. It's very unusual because in South Korean and North Korean society, traditionally men in the family tend to succeed the leadership. But recently the NIS sort of

retracted that, saying that all they know confirmed is that there is at least one more child than Kim Joo-ae and gender unknown. So now that hypothesis is sort of gone. So that's why NIS is saying that there is now a higher possibility that she might even be the successor. But woman being a leader in North Korea, that would be a first time if that happens. What do we know then about his family life? You're saying we think there's another son, but we're not quite sure. What do we know as factual evidence? Well, as a factual evidence, the only thing we know, even the name Kim Joo-ae, it's not confirmed.

It's because Dennis Rodman visited North Korea and accidentally mentioned that name. So that's why South Korea keeps mentioning her name as Kim Joo-ae. But only factual evidence is that she's there. We haven't seen the son or daughter or any other children yet. We have seen a few times where research to the wife was seen and NIS thought that she was pregnant, but that's about it really. Let's get into the fact that she's just 10 and you mentioned she's a woman and that would be highly unusual for a woman to come to power. Is there too much

speculation going on here? Or do we think that that might actually happen, given the fact that it seems that she's the only one in focus at the moment? It is possible, certainly. But if you look at history, in the past, Kim Jong-un as well, he was hidden for a very long time before he was confirmed as a successor and he had an older brother as well half brother so it seems like the as long as you are kim family and you have the you have proven your capability to the leader it seems like sometimes it doesn't matter you're an elder son but a lot of focus actually has been on how it could be the first woman leader in north korea but the essence

there doesn't really change that it's a hereditary dictatorship. And the focus is more like they are inheriting the regime authority to another Kim, fourth Kim generation, regardless of it's a woman. We are talking about a 10 year old girl here after all, but in time, if this should come to pass, what significance would that be for women in North Korean society, do you think? They will need to work on a lot of change in social norms when it comes to women in leadership, first of all. Although in North Korea, a role of women has changed over the past few decades while they were going through hardships, economic hardships. Women went to the market and ran their family. They were the breadwinner of the family, many of them. So it was already changing, but we're talking about elites here. So they will

need a way to justify how this young plus female leader is justified to lead an entire country, which what North Korea might be already having started doing, including making the daughter, very young daughter, accompany the father for very dangerous launches of ICBM and satellite, as well as economy-related on-site guidances as well. And do you think Kim Jong-un has an eye to how this is playing out internationally? Of course, when Donald Trump was in the White House, there seemed to be more of an outstretched hand to bring him into the international fold. Does

he think along those lines or is he still very much set on his own determination and the determination of his country? Does he have little care for what the rest of the world thinks? It seems like he does care because there have been signs since the Trump and Kim Jong-un summit that North Korea is trying to posit itself as a more normal country, a state, not a dictatorship or a socialist regime. So there is definitely that sign. But when it comes to U.S., North Korea and the whole isolation from their national community during the Biden administration and Yoon Seok-yeol administration here in South Korea, it looks like Kim Jong-un lost most of the hopes when it comes to getting any concessions or engagement that could benefit North Korea.

So when Trump comes back, if it's really unclear what Kim Jong-un's decision might be, whether or not to reach out to the international community. Right now, it seems like North Korea's best friend is Russia. Jae Young-min Kim talking to us, the lead correspondent at NK News talking to me from Seoul a little earlier. I'm joined now by Professor Hazel Smith from the Center of Korean Studies at London University. So, welcome to New Women's Hour. Good morning. Great to New Woman's Hour. Good morning. Great to have you with us.

You lived in North Korea for a while and have done a lot of work with and around the country. What are your thoughts on this story? Well, I think a 10-year-old girl in any country, 10 or 11 years old, it's not really at the age where one can say that they're going to be a political leader. We have to remember that the leader of North Korea is not a nominal position. They're a political leader.

And lots of things can happen, as we all know, with children when they go from 10 years old to being in a position where they might be able to make realistic decisions. So I think it's far too premature to be making any even semi-definitive statements about what's going to happen in a few years' time, or even if Kim Jong-un died and left a young family with no adult descendant. I'm just going to ask, what is life for women like in North Korea at the moment? There is conscription for both sexes. How does that break down for women in day-to-day life? If I can just say first regarding the other point,

the National Security Agency in South Korea has frequently been wrong. They've said often that people have been executed and then they're materialised six months later on TV. So I think we have to give that a a great deal of skepticism for women um north korea is one of the poorest countries in the world it's paradoxical considering it's got the ability to test nuclear bombs um it's per capita gdp is less than a thousand dollars per year again according UN, the world's about one of the 14 poorest countries in the world. Women, unusually perhaps for poor countries,

are incorporated into the workforce in a very, very large... Well, into the formal workforce in a very large way. They're also responsible, seen as socially responsible, for looking after children, for domestic workers, as happens, of course, in many countries. And they're also responsible for taking part often in political activities. There's a huge burden on women in particular in North Korea. One of the things, again, to go from the rather general to the particular, that's most concerning in the last two or three years is that basic public health for women was actually

improving a lot after the famine years of the 1990s up until about 2019, 2020. This is partly because the UN organizations have been resident there for 25 years, there was quite a lot of input, there was work with the government. Things like maternal mortality, the statistics improve for women, partly because of simple things like vaccinations being available in childbirth and in pregnancy, for instance, tetanus vaccinations. But now, over the last three years, we've seen vaccination coverage, for instance, go down to almost zero last year, partly because of the UN sanctions of 2016 and 17, which don't prohibit medicines, but do prohibit, say, any metal, bits of metal going into the country,

even if the country can afford to buy them. And also because the North Koreans government closed its borders in 2020 as a COVID prevention measure and hasn't reopened them. The economy has collapsed. And as in many countries, what happens is that women, particularly poor women, and in North Korea, poor rural women are bearing the brunt of this. And I mentioned childbirth because when I was working there, one of my colleagues who were out in the country,

nutritionists and caseworkers, said one of the terrible things in those days, that was in the late 1990s, nearly 2000s, was to actually see or hear of women dying around childbirth, perinatal modality, with technos-related infections. It's really painful. It's excruciating. It's a horrible way to die. And we know those deaths must be going up right now. And are avoidable. Just one final question. Apologies, we don't have much time left. But what would make a difference? You talked about UN sanctions and changes that have had a direct impact on the health of women. What could make

a change? What could improve things? Well, if you had a better government, it would make a change. But given one of the problems is the government and given the humanitarian agencies are there to respond when you've got poor governments for all sorts of reasons, I think excluding the health sector and the food sector from the comprehensive sanctions that are imposed on North Korea would be very, very helpful indeed. At least women then could avoid semi-starvation and at least then they could get basic assistance with basic health care, which would enable some improvement in their quality of life. It wouldn't be the answer to everything, but it would help in some ways.

And helping in some ways is important rather than doing nothing. Thank you so much for joining us, Momenzar. That is Professor Hazel Smith from the Centre of Korean Studies at the London University, SOHAS. Now, Carol Stone must have one of the best address books ever. A former producer on Radio 4's Any Questions.

For years, Carol has run salons and parties, bringing together hundreds of interesting people from politicians to actors to journalists. But recently, she's found herself feeling lonely. Carol's partner, TV broadcaster Richard Lindley, died four years ago. They were together for 31 years. In an article in The Times recently, Carol wrote this,

I have more than 55,000 people in my contacts list, but I cannot find a man. The fact is I'm lonely. I accept invitations I would normally not be interested in, thinking my man, or should I call him my soulmate, could perhaps be there. It's exhausting and mostly indescribably disappointing. Well, we wanted to find out more about the search for a soulmate when you're over 80. So I'm delighted to say Carol is here with us in the Woman's Hour studio. Hello, welcome. I'm pleased to be here. Well, and you're incredibly honest about this, about your feelings of loss in the article. Why did you decide to write it?

I think because basically somebody said to me 55,000 it was a friend of mine Jane Johnson who's been editor herself of many magazines and newspapers she said 55,000 people Karen you can't find a man there must be something in this you should write about it so that's really why I did and I don't know why I was lonely I met Richard very late in life when I was 46 had 30 odd years with him. But I just felt very, very lonely. I've got many, many friends. I think friends are the joy of life. But I just, when I wake up in the morning, I sometimes think I wish there was someone I was thinking of especially and someone who was thinking especially of me.

That's what it is, really. So it's not just having all those people around you because you're famous for running those salons and networking people. It's not the number of people around you. It's the important other person that you're still looking for that's still the gap I have good friends and as I say they are the joy of life they would not go away it's just lovely I think it was just being with Richard those years to have someone even who was away working that was coming back to you that you could say how are you feeling sweetheart what should we do next week shall we go this shall we do that that's I just found myself feeling it and it coincided with mentioning it to somebody and as I wrote the piece I thought I really am very lonely and I really do wish I was waking up with more with the cats in the morning

or at least with someone who can really sort of share life with me I suppose. With Richard it just sounds like you had, even though you met later in life, you had this wonderful compatibility. And I know you've been on some dates, you detail that in the article, but is it almost impossible to recreate that? Is it hard to find that again?

I wouldn't try to. I wouldn't try to. Funnily enough, online, I did see a photo of someone who looked very much like Richard on the elite singles. But that wasn't what I was looking for. I was just looking for someone who perhaps could be mine. It probably won't happen. It just seemed a very good thought.

And then there was another agency, Drawing Down the Moon, which is more personal and a match to you and for thinking people. And it's a more personal approach. And that was very, very good indeed. And I've met one or two people from there and really think I want to be more. So I think there's various ways it can be done. Of course, I think it's lovely to meet someone through friends at a dinner party or whatever,

or at an event or bowling or whatever it is that you do. I think that probably is ideal, but I didn't find that in my four years. I wasn't particularly looking. And then I thought, well, I will just try. But it's really to say a lot of people don't feel lonely. A lot of people don't agree with me. I've got two cats.

I could have a dog, all these things. But it just felt that it would be lovely to do it. It was a bit of fun in a way, but then it became more serious because I really did want it to happen in that sense. I've done the salons. You're right. I had a party for a thousand people every year for many, many years. I paid for all this myself. I'm not a professional network in that way. I was a radio producer. Then I worked for a company called YouGov, the polling company.

But it just was a way of doing things. And the salons stopped me having to meet people individually, which is too much time. And I could bring people together. And I think people have got so much to share. Lots of reaction to this. Older dating my 80s but well over 60 my husband died in 2019 it's lonely always on my own but despite people telling me how good I look I can't quite find a date maybe I'm too independent confident financially independent constantly curious I don't know where interesting older and single men hang out but many seem to want a carer rather than a fellow adventurer i'm now thinking of creating a monthly club event for over 50s and 60s music we love to dance to at some comfy sofas when our joints remind us temporarily of our chronological age

or just maybe for when we want to snog a great topic says this text there is that an issue as well because our people in you, men and women may be in the market for different things at different ages. Have you found that? Yes, of course. But I think that this lady's got a very good idea. I run a salon, I run them every week. And I've wanted to start the stone circles where there could be a bench, a friendship bench in villages and towns where people knew that was the one you could sit down and talk if you were lonely, or you just wanted to meet other people. I think anything to bring people together. I've got a little thing called the Carol Stone Foundation, talking about issues, bringing people together and helping out in various ways of introductions or just literally discussing ideas with other people.

I believe that is the secret of life is communication. If you can get it and you want it, whether it's one person that I'm looking for at the moment or just friends and people in general. And the stone circle idea you'd still like to pursue wouldn't you? I would love to do that I have spoken to one woman from America who said she's going to try and help me do it it just means you could go out you're feeling a bit lonely what are you going to do I talk to everybody but I'm not normal I realise that but if you could just sit down and say hi what are you here this morning for it would be a lovely way of living your life I I think. It's a great idea. A few weeks ago on Woman's Hour, we spoke to a woman who says her elderly father was coerced into handing over power of attorney to a woman he met on a cruise. There are lots of things about dating when you're older that make you vulnerable. Is that a concern of yours? No, not at all. I think, I mean, I've met a friend who went out to a dinner with a man, very expensive dinner, very expensive wine. He went to the loo and didn't come back. I don't think she could have been 20, 30, 40, 50. Of course, you've always got to be on the lookout

and make sure that you look after your loved ones if they are doing something like a dating. But that can happen if you meet them at a dinner party or anywhere. I think it's just that keep yourself open, I think, to, as I say, if you haven't got loneliness and you're very happy on your own, and many, many people are, that's wonderful. It's just I started writing and suddenly realised how lonely I was. Women are at a huge disadvantage in our generation. Women have developed hugely in our lifespan, but men are lagging behind in so many ways, not least in what they expect from a

relationship and who they want. Younger women, difficult enough when a woman's in her 60s and 70s, suspected it takes a miracle to meet anyone once you're in your 80s. Very briefly, have you met people who give you hope still, Carol? People who give me? Hope of finding that connection. Oh gosh, yes. And I think we should start salons and getting together. It could be just a cup of tea every week.

It's got to be the same time, the same place with the same people. And then just say, come for a cup of tea. And suddenly things happen. Much better to meet people that way. I understand that. And I think as long as we talk to each other and let each other know how we feel, I think we've got a better chance

of getting what we want. Carol, really good luck with the search for romance in your 80s and such a brilliant topic. So many people responded to this this morning on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for coming into the studio. Thank you.

That is Carol Stone. And thank you everybody for all your texts on all manner of things we've been talking about this morning. I'm an 82-year-old man who two years ago found my very first girlfriend on the internet whom I'd met while serving in the RAF as a 19-year-old man. There is hope for everyone. Thank you to all of my guests this morning. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Will you please welcome the 2023 BBC Reith Lecturer, Professor Ben Ansell. I don't think anybody expects to be asked to do the Reith Lectures, so it's an enormous honour, but it's an enormous responsibility. Hello, I'm Anita Arnand.

In this year's BBC Radio 4 Wreath Lectures, Professor Ben Ansell explores our democratic future and what we must do to protect it. Democracy is our legacy from past generations and it's an obligation of ours to secure for future generations. It's up to us. That's the 2023 Reef Lectures. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.