Woman's Hour - Midwives refusing the vaccine, Spiking inquiry, 50 years of diet & fitness with Rosemary Conley, Slam poetry

Episode Date: January 14, 2022

A midwife from a maternity unit tells us why she and over thirty of her colleagues are refusing to have the Covid jab. They will all lose their jobs when the Government’s vaccine mandate for NHS staff comes into force on April 1st, putting the unit at risk, and leaving pregnant women wondering what it means for them and their babies. We also hear from the Royal College of Nursing who want the Government to pause the vaccine mandate for NHS staff immediately because of the threat to an already understaffed NHS. And we speak to Professor Ian Jones, a Virologist at the University of Reading about the science of infection and transmission, and the impact on the NHS workforce and their patients.Diet and fitness expert Rosemary Conley CBE celebrates fifty years of keeping Leicestershire - and the rest of the country - fit. Rosemary was 25-years-old when she held her first class in a local village hall in 1972. Since then, she's written 36 books, presented dozens of fitness videos and continues to run classes in the county. She joins Anita to talk about the changes she's seen when it comes to women's diet and fitness and what we all can do to keep ourselves healthy.This week doyenne of the slam poetry and performance scene Joelle Taylor won the TS Eliot Poetry Prize. Fellow poet and slam champion Kat Francois explains why it matters and why women should give slam a try.The House of Commons' Home Affairs Committee is exploring the scale of the problem of spiking in nightclubs, pubs. festivals and house parties. Zara Owen, a student at Nottingham University who believes she was spiked with a needle last October while on a night out with friends, and Dawn Dines, the founder of Stamp Out Spiking UK both gave evidence to the committee this week.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. From April the 1st, any NHS staff who haven't been fully vaccinated will face being deployed or will be sacked. Harsh or fair? Well, there's one maternity unit in the UK where 40 midwives have apparently not been vaccinated. We've managed to track down the

unit and have an interview with one of the midwives that will be coming up shortly. But I want to hear from you this morning, especially if you're pregnant. The message for all pregnant women is vaccination is crucial if you want to protect yourself and your baby from possible complications. Well, how would you feel knowing that your midwife hasn't been vaccinated? Would you request someone who has been? What if you don't have the option? What if the choice was between an unvaccinated midwife and none at all because they've all been sacked? Well, Woman's Hour wouldn't be woman's hour

if we didn't hear from you so please get in touch i'll also be talking to a virologist about the science of the vaccine and pregnancy so please feel free to send your questions and thoughts you can text as always the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate so do check with your network provider for extra exact costs. And on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. But if you'd like to send us an email, then go to our website. I'll also be talking to the author, broadcaster and original fitness legend, Rosemary Conley.

How many of you did the hip and thigh diet back in the 80s? Well, Rosemary is now in her 70s and still promoting good health and diet. These days, though, we've moved on from reducing bums and tums to all round wellness. So as we like to share knowledge and inspire each other on this show, what's the one thing you do every day that improves your sense of well-being or fitness? I would love your tips this morning. Some of us are busy running around with work and children. Some of us are working from home. We've all lived through a very traumatic period one way or another. So it's important to look after yourself. So what do you do? Whether it's physical exercise, making time for yourself to cook or read, get a pedicure or do something

creative and crafty, I would love to know. And talking of getting creative, I'll be chatting poetry or rather slam poetry, to be more precise, with Kat Francois on the show today. Heck, if your creative juices are flowing already this morning and you want to send me a poem, go for it. The number to text 84844. But first today, the story of a maternity unit where nearly 40 midwives are refusing to be vaccinated and face losing their jobs under new COVID rules. From April 1st, any frontline NHS staff who have not had two jabs will be redeployed or sacked. Now, this raises obvious worries for pregnant women who are concerned about staff shortages and how a lack of qualified midwives could affect their care during pregnancy and during labour. Healthcare organisations have been warning they're

concerned about how this new law will affect all patient care in an already understaffed NHS. But in the past two days, the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of Nursing have gone one step further and called for the government to pause the policy immediately. Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Sajid Javid, made it clear in the Commons he is forging ahead. Since the government consulted on this policy in September, the proportion of NHS Trust healthcare workers vaccinated with at least a first dose

has increased from 92% to 94%. And we remain committed to putting these measures into force on the 1st of April. Well, there have been media reports over the past few weeks about these midwives, but no one knew who they were or if indeed the reports were true. Well, they are. And our reporter Carolyn Atkinson has spoken to one who is giving her first interview to Woman's Hour. We've agreed not to say which unit or trust they work at, but midwife Nia says after working all the way through the pandemic, she and her colleagues are devastated at being told how they will now lose their jobs.

I've been a midwife for 23 years now. Being a midwife is not just a job for me, it's who I am. I just cannot imagine doing anything else. Accompanying women on their journey through pregnancy into motherhood is just the most privileged position that someone could be in and I just absolutely love everything I do about my job. Feels like a family, feel like I work with a family. It's not just colleagues. The team are very passionate, caring, from a range of different ages, cultural backgrounds, ethnicities, and we all have different opinions. and they all have very different reasons for declining the vaccine but we are very much united on the fact that we do not want to be

forced into having a vaccine by having our livelihoods taken away from us. How many midwives altogether in your unit are in this position now? So I'm aware of 34 midwives that have made the decision that they are not going to get the vaccination. Actually 37 in the entire trust, but 34 in my particular unit. And of those 34 midwives, there's a collective experience of approximately 400 years, which, as you can imagine, is going to be a huge loss when we leave. So why is it that you are not willing to have the vaccination? My decision to not be vaccinated has been a continuously evolving one. It wasn't just a cut and dry decision that I just made right at the beginning of the pandemic. I had COVID back in March 2020. And whilst I wasn't badly affected

by COVID, you know, I was really excited about the prospect of a vaccine and I was quite keen to have it. But at the same time, just after I had COVID, I actually embarked on 12 months of medical treatment. And when the vaccine finally came out, the government actually advised that anyone in my situation should avoid having the vaccination. Also, during that time, I also enrolled on the Public Health England SIREN study. Over 10,000 healthcare workers that had had had COVID tracking antibodies and reinfection rate. We have fortnightly PCR swabs and blood tests to track our antibodies. And to date, I still have antibodies. And the fact that I don't fall into a vulnerable category, I made the decision to decline the vaccine at this moment in time.

Why are you doing that? Are you anti-vaccination? Absolutely not. You know, I've had vaccinations in the past. I do not subscribe to the anti-vaccine opinion. In fact, I'm very much in favour of vaccines. Evidence shows that the COVID vaccine reduces the risk of an individual being hospitalized and dying of COVID so I recommend the COVID vaccine to to anyone that's vulnerable that falls into a vulnerable category and pregnant women are classed as being vulnerable due to their immunosuppressed state so you know that is my recommendation. But people listening to this will be very confused because obviously there is a huge drive to get pregnant women to have the vaccination and pregnant women

going into hospital to have their babies many of them would expect and want their midwife to also be vaccinated. As I said the evidence is strong that the vaccine has a personal protective effect at reducing hospitalisation and death. So, you know, I do recommend vaccination to people to protect themselves primarily. In my experience, women are concerned about being cared for by a professional caring and compassionate midwife. And up until now, I haven't had any woman question me about my vaccination status. Ministers would say you are being selfish and you are putting the NHS itself at risk because your role is to work for the NHS. They would say you have a duty to protect your patients.

I would come back to the fact again that vaccines have a personal protective effect and that I would advise people that, you know, to have this vaccine to protect themselves. If you are so passionate about your career, and you really can't imagine doing any other job, because this is the one you've done for your whole career. Why is that not enough to make you think that actually you would have the vaccine? And also your colleagues, why are they all taking the position that they are willing to lose their jobs instead of having the vaccine? I think it comes down to, for a lot of us, bodily autonomy. Vaccinations are a medical treatment which bring with them risk, risk of side effects. And where there's risk, no matter how small, there must be a choice. And for some people, it's a really easy choice.

I know many of my colleagues didn't even question whether they'd have this vaccination or not. But for other colleagues and for myself, certainly, this decision-making process has been a lot more complex. And the mandate is robbing us of our bodily autonomy, threatening to remove our livelihood if we don't have the vaccine is robbing us of our bodily autonomy, threatening to remove our livelihood if we don't have the vaccine is not free consent. And what impact, given that there's more than 30 midwives in your unit alone, all in this position, come April the 1st, you will, as things stand at the moment, all lose your jobs.

What impact do you think that will have on the unit and on women who are expecting to give birth in your unit? Well, I've been a midwife for 23 years, as I said, and I'm witnessing the worst staffing crisis of my entire career. This is not unique to my unit by any means. It's a national crisis. It's not uncommon for there to be a shortfall of midwives in maternity units all over the country every shift. And in order to maintain the safety of mother and babies, the units are often having to close or temporarily suspend other areas of the service, such as midwifery-led birth centres or home birth teams in order to redeploy midwives to the areas of highest workload because obviously we're wanting

to maintain the safety of our mothers and our babies. You know we're looking at maybe some shifts 30% with down 30% of our staffing. It has a significant impact on the running of the unit. So if 30 disappear overnight, what do you think will happen to the unit? I think the unit, you know, maternity services all over the country could well collapse. It's a real concern. You know, the fact that these areas in the service are having to temporarily be suspended it's reducing choice for women i really would urge them to reconsider i really want them to understand exactly how this is going to negatively impact our maternity services and all areas of health

care and the nhs and i want them to abolish this mandate. It's just, I don't even know how we're going to manage. You know, my colleagues and I are, you know, we're working extra shifts. This is coming at a cost to us as well. You know, we're almost at breaking point. You know, we're desperately trying to maintain the safety of care to women and their babies. And more and more, this is to the detriment of our to women and their babies.

And more and more, this is to the detriment of our own mental and physical well-being. Mandating this vaccine is only going to make this already desperate situation critical. And is there anything that would make you change your mind and you and your colleagues change your mind? At this moment, no, at this moment in time, I feel confident in my decision to decline this vaccine. And it's not to say I won't change it in the future. But I and many of my colleagues, I know they feel the same as me when I say that, you know, we are absolutely devastated that we're going to have to work. Sorry. We're going to have to walk away from our vocations. Carolyn speaking to midwife Nia there, one of the midwives who has declined the vaccine, 34 of them in total. And Carolyn's on the line now. Carolyn, we know the government

is sticking with the policy because they say vaccinations are the main way out of this pandemic. How many NHS staff are likely to be affected? Well, I should say this is only NHS staff in England. And we know there's going to be about 73,000 NHS staff affected. That's according to the government's own figures, because they always have to do an impact assessment to find out what a policy impact will be, what the knock-on effect will be. Now, these deadlines are looming for this potential 73,000 staff. If they're not going to be redeployed, they're going to be sacked. There's not much time left. They have to have that first jab by February the 3rd, so three weeks' time so that they can comply with the April the 1st deadline that we heard mentioned there. Now, this all comes in the context of a really massive shortage of staff in the NHS before this even

started. It went into the pandemic with almost 100,000 vacancies. And it's not just the NHS that's looking about how it treats jabbed and unjabbed staff differently. Over the past few days, some big names like Next and Ocado and IKEA are warning that unless they're exempt, unjabbed staff who fall ill with COVID and need to be off won't get as much sick pay as staff who are jabbed. Now, as for the NHS, lots of organisations are very worried about this workforce issue. They all stress they're pro-vaccination, but they're very worried about the impact on the staffing situation. And of course, that means the potential knock on for patient care and for patient safety. Now, a week ago, the TUC, the Trades Union Congress, which represents unions, came out saying the vaccine mandate must be paused.

NHS providers, which represents the trusts, the community and the ambulance services, told me this morning they are redoubling their efforts to persuade staff to be vaccinated. But what's been happening over the past couple of days is that we've seen not one but two royal colleges telling ministers to actually hit the pause button with immediate effect. First, it was the Royal College of Midwives. They said they fear the policy will have a catastrophic impact on maternity services. And they say there are already 2,000 midwife vacancies.

And then yesterday, the Royal College of Nursing followed that lead and they warned that the policy is about to backfire. Thanks for that, Carolyn. Well, we can speak now to Helen Donovan from the Royal College of Nursing. Immunisation is her speciality. She's a nurse who's been vaccinating people

during the pandemic and was previously a midwife and also Professor Ian Jones, who's a virologist from the University of Reading. I'm going to come to you first, Professor Jones, so that we can really drill down into the science here and understand what the facts are. We heard there the midwife talking about having antibodies and being protected because she'd had Covid. Is she right about that? She's half right. You have to remember that the principle of vaccination is to give you the antibodies that you would otherwise have from the natural infection,

but without the risk of infection. So it is true to say that someone who's been infected or vaccinated will have generated antibodies, some of which would be protective. The difficulty, of course, is knowing how much antibody, and that relates to how recent the infection or the vaccination was. So in this case, I understand the infection was sometime back in 2020. And I think in that case, what we know from the surveys that have been done is that the antibody titer will be substantially lower today than it would have been soon after the infection. And the degree to which it would offer protection is equally low.

Is there any evidence that the natural immunity from infection would be as effective as a jab in terms of passing it on to patients and in this case pregnant women? Yes, effectively an infection is an immunisation and if you've been infected two weeks ago, four weeks ago, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, your antibody levels will be very high and they will remain high for about six months and then they will gradually decline. Without the risk of the infection, you get the same response by taking the vaccine. The issue is always how recent it's

been and what the level of antibody and protection is. And what we also know from COVID, from our experience of the last year, is that even if you have antibodies, you can still become infected. You are protected from disease, but you can become infected and you can act as a source of virus for someone else. So to lessen that chance, what you need is the highest level of antibody possible. I'm going to bring in a message that's come in via text. 84844 is the number of text

if you would like to ask a question or share your thoughts and opinions on this. Siobhan in West Wales has said, my first baby is due in six weeks. Midwives are so fundamental to educating and guiding the process and so precious. I feel so desperately sad

at the situation. As a triple vaccinated person myself, I think I'd like to be clearer on the effects of transmissibility of the virus from an unvaccinated person compared to a vaccinated person, as explained by your midwife interviewee. So yes, the transmissibility from an unvaccinated person.

An unvaccinated person is likely to get a full infection and that full infection might be mild, it might be severe, but they will have a full infection. Typically, they would have a strong PCR result, a strong lateral flow device result, plenty of virus in the nasal cavities, which means that they can act as a transmitting agent. They can pass the virus on to others. I want to pick up on something else that the midwife, Nia, spoke about, which she said that she's choosing not to have it for a variety of reasons but one of them is that she doesn't see herself as being vulnerable what would you say to that? how can we decide, can we judge whether we are vulnerable?

No, I mean vulnerable I think generally speaking is related to whether or not you're likely to get a severe outcome from infection but it's got very little to do with whether or not you can harbour the virus, multiply the virus and pass it on to someone else. I'm going to bring Helen Donovan in here from the Royal College of Nursing. We've heard the science there from Professor Jones. Why are you calling for the government to pause the compulsory jab programme, Helen? Well, I think first and foremost, I have to say that the Royal College of Nursing is absolutely adamant that all our members and all nurses, all healthcare professionals should be vaccinated for the very reasons that Professor Jones has stated. The vaccines are safe and they're effective and they are the right thing to do. The reason that we're calling for the pause is because this doesn't seem to be the right time to do this,

given the staffing crisis and given the unmissable pressures that the NHS are currently facing and the workforce pressures that there are. So what we're saying is have the vaccine, but have those conversations with people to support them in making the decision rather than having this mandate. According to the health secretary, 6% of staff haven't had their jab at all. Why would pausing the programme make them any more likely to be vaccinated? So as an immunisation specialist nurse, and my colleagues will tell you this, we know that having conversations with people, even with the midwife that you interviewed, talking to people about their concerns about why they are worried about the vaccine on an

individual one-on-one basis has a far better response but if you've got the pressure and the threat of losing your job hanging over you it makes those conversations very difficult it moves the conversation from well I'll think about it I'll have a further thought about whether you know the science behind it I'll think about it, I'll have a further thought about whether, you know, the science behind it, I'll look into it, to, I just don't want to do this, I'm feeling pressured. So that's the challenge that we're faced with when we're trying to support people. And, you know, as a college, we've spent the last 18 months making sure that the members that we're supporting have the information available and they have access to those supportive conversations. What this is doing is almost putting a halt to the possibility of that. What's the message, though, Helen, that's being sent out,

and in this case to pregnant women in particular, who are being urged to get the vaccine? In fact, just on Monday, the government launched a new campaign to get women, and it's called Get Boosted Now, to get pregnant women to get the vaccine in fact just on Monday the government launched a new campaign to get women and it's called get boosted now to get pregnant women to get boosted what's the message being sent out to them if their health care professionals if their midwives are choosing not to be well you know it is a very very difficult balance isn't it because I absolutely and I said this quite clearly all of the midwives all of the health professionals should be vaccinated there's no doubt in that the vaccines are safe they will

stop people getting severe infection they will therefore help stop significant transmission of infection and for all of those reasons people should be vaccinated and what I would say to pregnant women is we know that pregnancy itself can put on added pressure and having coronavirus when you're pregnant can lead to premature delivery so it's really really important that pregnant women have the vaccine and encourage midwives to do the same. But having this deadline of the 3rd of February and then the 1st of April

is just putting undue pressure in that system. But surely you should be doing everything you can to back the government in its efforts to vaccinate more people, including NHS staff. Well, we absolutely are. can to back the government in its efforts to vaccinate more people including NHS staff? Well we absolutely are and I think all professional organisations are in making sure that the information is accessible and also pushing to make sure that people have access to those conversations but you know healthcare professionals are not, they're not sort of, they don't not hear some of the anti-messages. They don't not hear some of the misinformation.

They're not sort of in a bubble of sort of, you know, the science. So it's really important that people are able to have those conversations in a constructive way rather than, you know, with the pressure hanging over them. And we can see 94% by the government's own statement have had the vaccines as recommended. But what we have seen, and I think shown in your clip, is that there are pockets where there are particular concerns with particular units. And that's where we need to be able to go in

and and talk to those individuals about what their concerns are yeah sure 94 percent is a it sounds like a lot and six percent doesn't sound like that many but the numbers are quite large aren't they i think it's 73 000 members of staff could face uh losing their jobs that was the the figure that was presented by the impact assessment that was presented with me when the consultation first come that came out so I suspect we don't actually know the full figure but 73,000 was the figure that you know potentially could lose their jobs and when you couple that with the fact that there are 40,000 already registered nurse vacancies in the UK, in the, no, not UK, in NHS England, that really does add added pressure into the system. And

that's the reason that we're saying we need to sort of put a pause on this. Pause till when? Well, I'm not sure that it's very helpful at the moment to give an absolute date. I think we need to stop. We need to give people time and let's see how the figures carry on increasing. But isn't drawing having a deadline helping to focus the decision making? Otherwise, this could just keep getting kicked down the road. Well, I think, you know, we need to also look at the way we manage vaccination in general in this country. And we don't mandate, but we actually do generally achieve very, very high uptake by having access to vaccines,

by making sure that the people know what's good and what's not good and having opportunity to have those conversations. So I think that we need to fall back on that as well to keep on pushing the message that these vaccines are safe, they work, and these vaccines in particular are very effective and have been shown to be very effective. Professor Jones, I would like to come back to you. A bit more of the science, if we can. What's the actual risk of unvaccinated staff passing on covid to a pregnant unvaccinated patient well first of all the unvaccinated

staff has to contract the virus so they would have had to have been in a risk situation they would have had to have picked up the virus, and presumably they would have to not have taken any test which might confirm any symptoms that they have. If they are infected, then given the closeness of the work, the risk that they pose is actually very high. And of course, an unvaccinated pregnant mother would be quite a risk situation. And what's the risk to the unborn baby? It's essentially the same because you have to remember that when a baby is born, it is only protected by the antibodies provided by the mother. It has no capacity to make antibodies yet itself. And so the baby, when it's born in the same vicinity, is equally able to contract the virus and has no previous

immunity to it. So Helen, if ensuring the safety of patients is the utmost, then surely encouraging vaccination is what it's all about. Yeah, absolutely. I would completely agree with that statement and obviously completely agree with everything that Ian Jones has said. The argument is, is making it mandated the way to achieve that? And I think that that's where the problem comes, because people feel that they are not able to make a decision, they're not able to have a conversation with somebody that gives them that information. So I think that's the crux of it, really. Have you failed, Helen? You as a body and the other membership bodies whose role it was to persuade your members to get jabbed have you failed in that role no i don't think we have failed but i think that actually having this um this over people of um

having to have a mandate does suggest that we haven't got some of the messages right um i'm not i'm not going to put the blame um particularly on one organisation, on our organisation. But I think in general, there is, you know, there is some mistrust from people. And as I said before, healthcare professionals are not immune to that. So we know that with this particular vaccine programme, there's been a lot of misinformation. And it's been quite challenging, I think, to tackle that and get over that. Professor Jones, just from you, do you think, given the science and given the workforce situation, that the programme should be paused or not? Well, this is a personal view. And I think in the end, it's a question of risk assessment,

and which is the least of two evils. And in my case, it seems clear that the loss of staff completely would be a greater risk than a few of those staff having the potential to pass on the virus to a few individuals who are not vaccinated. So I would be in favour of a pause. Okay, Professor Ian Jones and Helen Donovan, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Well, the Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said, NHS and care staff do amazing work and we're thankful to those who've chosen to get the vaccine.

Health and social care workers are responsible for looking after some of the most vulnerable people in society, many of whom are more likely to suffer serious health consequences if exposed to the virus. This is about patient safety and ensuring people in hospital or care have as much protection as possible. Vaccinations remain our best defence

against COVID-19 and you have been getting in touch in your droves. Laura says, this is making me absolutely furious. They don't have to walk away from their vocations. They can take a vaccine

and keep their jobs. Ellen in Norfolk says, in response to the vaccination, it's personal protection. It does not protect others. So it's ridiculous that NHS or any other professions should be forced into it. Ian in Shropshire says,

it's astonishing that so many members of the NHS, not just midwives, are refusing the COVID vaccination when the whole country is being encouraged to have the vaccine in order to protect the NHS and your speaker says the vaccine gives personal protection we have all been told that it also reduces one's potential to pass on the virus thereby protecting others as well 84844 keep your thoughts coming in you can also send me an email via the website well this year Rosemary

Connolly celebrates 50 years of keeping Leicestershire and the rest of the country fit. Rosemary was 25 when she held her first class in 1972. Since then, she's written 36 books, presented dozens of fitness videos, and continues to run classes in the country. So what changes has she seen to women's fitness? And could we all be doing, what could we all be doing to keep ourselves fit and healthy rosemary spoke to me earlier and began by telling me how it all started 50 years ago well it all began because i when i first got married in 68 i put on a load of weight um and then having conquered and learned how to lose that weight i then created a small class in my kitchen

with half a dozen my neighbors and in six in six weeks, they all lost a stone. And I'd also taught them how to make the most of themselves because I'd been on a good grooming course. And so then fired up with this enthusiasm, we went to the local village hall. So with 30 posters, I put them around the village and 29 people joined on that first night. And the next week, my slimmer of the week had lost 11 pounds.

And I suddenly thought, this is something I can do. So you started the classes because you had lost the weight yourself. But how did you know what you were doing? You're not a dietician. You're not an expert. So how did you know? Well, I'd read books about it. I mean, we're talking 72.

We hadn't the knowledge then. It was all about go to your doctor. Your doctor would give you a thousand calorie sheet to follow, which of course is much too, much too strict to do all the time. And so I worked out my own method of actually going with 1400 calories, because it was all calories in those days. It's not so much these. And I just inbuilt lots of more vegetables

and sort of healthy foods. I showed it to my doctor before we went sort of public with it. And he said, yeah, it's fine. And that was it. That was as far as I went, but it was working. And so we didn't do exercise at that point. Exercise came later when Jane Fonda sort of hit the scene

with Going for the Burn and the word aerobics was born. Going for the Burn and leotards, tight, tight leotards. That's the first thing that came to my mind. I've still got some upstairs in the box. And the leg warmers. I've got those too, just in case. Sometimes there's a retro exhibition or something. And so we started doing exercise.

Of course, we didn't know what we were doing because there's no qualifications back in sort of late 1970s. But people liked it and we had fun. And really that was how it all grew. And it's just been the most joyful thing. And I've taken my own classes all the way through the last 50 years and still take them today. You still take classes today. When do they happen? Well, they happen on a Monday night and we work out for about half an hour. That's all.

I've got three people who are over 80. I've got over 10 people over 70. And I've got about half of them have been coming at least 30 years. And some of them have been coming probably over 40 years. My oldest member has been coming for 46 years. So it sounds so much more than just a place where people come together to lose weight. It sounds like it's some kind of community you've created, Rosemary. It is absolutely. You've hit it right on the head, Anita. It's a community family. And over those 50 years, many people have, many of us have gone through some really tough times.

And last year, we had one member, particularly who's got a very poorly grandchild. And she came to the class. We were so pleased to see her. And after she'd done the workout, she went, she said, you know what? This has saved my life. The stress of everything at home and the family

is just overwhelming. And her husband, apparently, when she went home, the husband said, you're a different woman walking in that door. Absolutely brilliant that you're still going. I have to say to you, I have weighing scales in my home, but I do not get on them. And I wouldn't because they terrify me.

And I'm sure there's lots of women and people generally who feel the same. And also, is it still about making sure we're a certain weight or has it moved on now to more general health and well-being and strength? I don't get on scales either. Because I think when you get to a reasonable weight, you know from your clothes whether you are the right weight or not. And you know if things are a bit tight, you need to be a bit better for a few days. But that's OK, do a bit more exercise. But it is definitely about the whole

thing but it's the yes we need to exercise exercise is absolutely critical and so for your lovely listeners really that you know don't just try and lose weight by eating a different way try and bring the whole thing together if you do some daily exercise, and you mentioned strength, Anita, that is so important, particularly as we get older. So you do aerobic fitness. So going for your walk, fantastic for your heart and lungs, fantastic for your legs. Really, the big engines are in your thighs because they're the big muscles

that enable you to stand up and sit down from your chair to be able to get off the floor if by chance you had a trip or something. But we also need strength. And as we get older, often our muscles will diminish. If we don't use them, if you don't use it, you'll lose it. And so we need to actually take some exercise to enable those muscles to be stronger. What do you feel about the body positive movement?

I think people are entitled to their opinions. And I'm not saying everybody should be a certain weight. And when people come to my class and get on the scales, and they are obviously overweight, then I want to help them to lose. They won't be paying money to come to my class if they didn't want to lose weight. So I'm there to do that job for them but I've got several members who come to my class who have kept their weight off for 20 years and they and the times I can think it's one lady Eileen and she'll get off just isn't it lovely being slim I can go into a shop and everything fits and so everybody has their own opinion. And, you know, there isn't a right or wrong, but it is about health. And it's as unhealthy to be too slim

and to do too much exercise. It's about balance, about healthy eating, moderate amount of exercise, but consistent exercise, some aerobic exercises, some strength exercise. If you want to go to the gym, brilliant. If you want to play a sport, fantastic. It's about finding what you want to do as an individual. I'm not here to say you must do this. It's the last thing I would do. What can older people do when they get into their 60s and 70s just just to ensure that they are looking after their bodies the most important thing when you get I mean I sort of was really fit up to my 70s and then arthritis arthritis hit my feet um and I really had to sort of write what are we going to do about this and I sort of coped with it quite aggressively if you like think right what

supplements do I need to take what do I need to to, is exercise good for it? And so on and so forth. And that's part of the reason why I do my sort of 40 minute walk every morning, because that gets my feet moving. One of the biggest problems as we get older is yes, a few bits of us start moaning and groaning, you know, you get joints that squeak and and make horrible noises and bits of you ache but you know if you don't move they will just get worse and your whole life will just go downhill and yet if you fight it and you do do your exercise you do eat healthy put healthy fuel into your body and you keep your brain active this is why you know I'm sitting in my office now I come into my office every work day work full time I love my

life it keeps me active and that's what we should try and do we are in control of this ourselves it's a choice and don't make excuses you're All you're doing by making excuses not to do things is hurting yourself. That's a bit of motivation. And very quickly, Rosemary, you've been running this business for 50 years. Anything you'd do differently? Any regrets? Oh, I don't believe in having regrets. I think it's all about if there are mistakes one makes, you learn from them.

And I think sometimes when you hit the buffers and you go over some bumps it strengthens your character and I think we all have to go through life and understand there's going to be some ups and downs that's the way life is. The legend Rosemary Connolly there telling us no excuses but full of life and vibrancy and you've been getting in touch telling us what you do on a daily basis to keep yourselves fit and active and just for your own peace of mind um hot shower every morning with one minute cold screamy bit at the end saved my mental health i swear through the worst times that's from liz in brighton sandra in derby says to make me happy each morning i go into the garden feed about 60 wild birds who sing back thank you that's lovely and laura says i'm 64 i run three

times a week do do yoga twice, go on long walks. I'm tired already. Ending, oh, I like this bit. Ending up in the pub on Sundays. I eat healthily, probably drink too much, but I'm doing dry January. So hey, no one's perfect.

84844 is the number to text. Now, onto the terrifying subject of drink psyching. Have you ever been a victim of it? Well, this week, the House of Commons Home Affairs Committee has been holding its first evidence session in its inquiry into understanding the scale of the problem of spiking after a series of reports of drinks being spiked and people being stabbed with needles in pubs and clubs was reported last year. And something we've discussed on this programme before. For example, from October to December last year, Nottinghamshire Police revealed

it had received 146 reports of people potentially being spiked by a needle and 143 incidents of people having their drink spiked. The majority of reports, they said, came from women. Well, two people who gave evidence this week to the committee are 20-year-old Nottingham University student Zara Owen and Dawn Dines from Stamp Out Spiking UK. And they both join me now. Welcome to the programme. Zara, I'm going to come to you first to find out what happened. So my story. We can hear you. We can see you.

Can you hear me? Yes, absolutely. we can hear you we can see you yes absolutely okay lovely so my story basically was just the fact that i was meant to be going out with my friends on a typical club night you know we'd go out on a few drinks and have fun um and obviously wake up the next day it was a complete memory of everything however that was the complete opposite with me so i didn't have a lot of drinks at night and I ended up waking up the next morning with an absolute memory loss from going into the club going to the toilets going to the bar from then on out no memory until I was at home and upon waking up I had a pinprick mark in my leg which made me really confused as I had no idea what had happened to me and due to being on social media

I've heard stories of people who had been spiked via a needle or an injection and I thought maybe that had happened to me and after a while I did I did think and I was like yes this is actually what has happened to me because as I said when it comes to drinking, I don't lose memory. I always remember things. Yes, sometimes it can be quite sporadic, but I will never have a pure blackout of memory. Especially the fact that I didn't drink a lot. Yeah, so you had a complete blackout of memory, found this pinprick. So you deduced that this has happened to you, you've been spiked.

So what action did you take? Did you report it to the club? Did you go to the police? What did you do next? So straight afterwards, the day after, I went to the hospital, the local hospital to me, and I said to them how I had been spiked by an injection and if I could have my leg checked out or whatever they can do to, you know, reassure me or something. And unfortunately, I didn't receive any help in that manner and so I was there for eight hours and I only had a triage and a background check I did too report it to the police

but that was a few days later due to the fact I there was a lot of self-pride myself and I thought to know that I have to take it to the police is it was quite hard for me to really admit to and the fact that it was that serious but I did did in the end. And unfortunately, it did get filed as being undetected. I'm going to bring you in on this, Dawn, because you've been campaigning about this issue since 2005. And you've said you're pleased it's now getting the mainstream attention it deserves. But then you have cases like Zara's where she knows it's happened to her or she suspects it has. And what can she do? What can women do or people in general? This seems to be the whole

problem to be honest anita we really need to upskill and educate people in the nighttime economy because you know as and also like the public awareness because if you do go into a pub or a club or it can happen anywhere to be honest and if this happens to you, we need to educate the general public to show them that the date rape drugs can come out of your system as quick as up to six hours. So with information like that, with Zara, if she'd known this information, she could have gone to the hospital, she could have gathered that evidence, and then she'd have been able to have, you know, some sort of case to be able to protect herself against these sorts of problems and thankfully for Zara and I know this Zara

because you know obviously I've read what happened to you Zara was found by her friends in the takeaway next door to the club um so she she was she was okay um what what can be done to stamp out this problem what more needs to be done well for me um we've started off with with just providing stop tops which is just a a sticky foil which can cover a drink to stop an opportunist being able to easily slip something into their drink and there's obviously other products on the market to go into the top of bottles. But this is just putting like a plaster over the problem. What we want to see is education. We want every pub and every nightclub so that all of the staff are drink spike aware. We want to educate people on the symptoms, give them a call to action.

We want to make sure that there's policies and procedures in place so that everybody's singing off the same hymn sheet, really. I mean, if you go to a club, most clubs pat you down, check your bag, find out if you've got anything illegal on you. It's interesting that people can get in with needles. I know. I was speaking to a security guard in Exeter in my hometown recently and he informed me that somebody tried to get into one of our clubs and when they looked in his bag he had about 20 needles in his bag anyway the guy took his bag and ran away so he didn't even you know nobody made a citizen's arrest and when you hear stories like that that that is so frightening. And yeah, I think that the classification of these drugs obviously needs to be upped. And also for drink spiking to have its own specific offence code, then this is not just with drugs as well.

This is with alcohol because, you know, people for years, this has gone on. People put extra alcohol into somebody's drink. This is also a form of drink spiking because alcohol is also a drug, even though it's a socially acceptable drug. Zara, I'd just like to know what this has done to your mental health and whether you've been able to go out clubbing again. So I actually have been able to go out clubbing again, I actually have been able to go out clubbing again which to some people might find strange and they would if it were then they would be a bit more

hesitant in going out however my mindset was the fact that I don't want to be punished as the victim for being spied I want to still go out I want to still enjoy myself and live my life as it were um not threat like this is you know it's my it's my youth I like doing this I've been kept inside through COVID like you we all have and for a person who likes clubbing and going out and socializing with friends this added risk when you go out is a horrifying thought because obviously when it comes to spiking we are aware of it we know it's happening so we do take these proportions we cover our bottles we don't leave them unattended and obviously we

cover our glasses we take these measures because we are drummed into when we go out we have to make sure we do that but in the term of spiking viral injections you can't protect yourself other than being aware of yourself so I am still going out but obviously there are times where it will cross my mind and I will take further action just to see if my friends are okay see if they're still that how they I know them to be when they've had drink and if they're okay and I will constantly ask them just to reassure them but like I said I don't want to be punished as the victim sure and i don't want to live on eggshells i still want to enjoy myself and you are and you keep an eye out for your friends

as well um i'm sure we will be coming back to this as uh you know the the home affairs selected to me committee has only just started collecting its evidence so we will definitely be revisiting this but for now dawn dines zara owen thank you very much for speaking to me. Now, on Monday, Joelle Taylor won the prestigious T.S. Eliot Prize for a collection which explores the experience and marginalisation, if I can say the word, of butch lesbians. You can hear Joelle on Tuesday's Front Row on BBC Sounds. In that interview, she talks about the tension between words on the page and on the stage. For years, she's been performing her work and encouraging young people to do the same in schools and through Slam Ambassadors UK, which she founded 20 years ago. Well, my guest, Kat Francois, was the winner of the first televised UK Poetry Slam programme in 2004, Cult TV, even if I do say so myself. I actually presented the show with Lem Sisay.

And the following year, she won the World Poetry Sissay and the following year she won the World Poetry Slam. For 15 years she's run and performed at regular club nights and taught poetry and performance to young people and lots and lots of women and she joins us now. It's been a while Kat. Yes, it has been a while and I have

to say the years have looked good on you. I was going to say exactly the same to you. You cried when you heard that Joel had won the ts elliott prize why what was that reaction yeah i just got a bit emotional because um obviously i mean i know joel um well joel taylor well um we've performed together we've taught together i actually um have rt i'm teaching on the Slam Ambassadors programme that she used to run. And I don't know, when you know someone that well and you know their story and you know how much work has gone into it, and also she is really an ambassador for performance poets and slam poets.

And I know the amount of people that she's mentored, the amount of young people and children. You know, there's lots of poets now that really have to thank Joelle for where they are now, successful poets. There'll be lots of people, Kat, who will never have heard of slam poetry. What is it?

Basically, it's just poetry that we perform. It's performance poetry. It's just poetry that you perform and slamming can have many configurations, but usually it's like a, I always describe it like a polite rap battle. You don't cuss each other's mums or clothes. Do you know what I mean? Nothing like that.

It's very nice. It's very polite. Usually you have maybe a few judges pulled from the audience and they get to judge on written content, on content of performance. And the energy, I'm thinking back to that cult TV show that we did in 2004 that you won. The energy in the room is electric when you perform.

It is pretty amazing. There's no clicking fingers in this poetry. No. You know what I mean? Some of the nights, the open mic nights, you might click. But yeah, I mean, when I've run slam nights myself, I ran a slam night for 15 years where for word slam it was a mind the audience all got to hold up cards so it was really kind of interactive but

when I've run them in schools and you know there's amazing slams for young people like the roundhouse slam which is for under 25s and that takes place every year and even took place online there is this electricity there is this force there is this electricity, there is this force, there is this energy that I think only slam performers poetry can bring. And you are one of, if not the best. So we would love it if on Woman's Hour Now, I can say that, I can say that, if you could just, could you perform something for us?

Yes, I'm going to perform an excerpt of a piece called Tongue Tied. It's hard to hold on when all the sunshine is gone, when the joy has been drained and the pain refuses to fade and your body shuts down as it struggles to decipher the world's tirade. And we seek solace and we seek solace in things that numb, quiet and desensitise and euthanise. And we try and hide the pain inside, smother it in smiles and falsified cries, but it slowly seeps from tired eyes, slowly secretes from sweated skin, skin burning from anger bubbling within, and anxiety grips and beats like a wielded stick. Chokes and suffocates till the space to breathe is a fight for life.

And we seek solace and we seek solace. And the truth is tongue tied and the truth is blind. We kidnap our own emotions, refuse them the light of day, keep them rat caged inside our terrified chest until they cannot express, until they cannot confess. Frustrated and bruised, beaten and confused, the truth has lost its way. Turned left when it should have turned right,

gone up when it should have gone down, putrid and sick, the truth is drowning, drowning, drowning, drowning, drowning, drowning in its own rotten skin, withered and thin, full of regret and earthly sin. And the truth is tongue-tied and the truth is blind. And we seek solace and we seek solace and we seek solace and i'm gonna give you oh my goodness that was incredible to hear amazing to watch you perform that we will most definitely clip that and put it on instagram um for people to see because you need

to see it to really feel and get the emotion kat i mentioned at the beginning that you know joel has won this and she's really she's kind of flying the flag for marginalized communities how much of slam poetry and performance poetry and what we're talking about is for people on the margins and and it's about class and race and gender and sexuality. It's a space. It's a space that we're not always given. I mean, Joelle's book importantly deals with lesbians and specifically butch lesbians, and it's a voice that we don't hear from. I know one of the most important things for me about when I first stepped on the stage was here I had the three minutes,

you know, as a young black woman from a working class background, large family, all the isms, all the intersectionalities were there and I didn't always have a space. And when I first stepped on the space, on the stage, it was like, you know, I had this three minutes and, you know,

poetry isn't like comedy or some of the other things. You really get heckled. It's really considered a sacred space, you know? And there I was for the first time. I felt like I could be listened to. And I think that's what's important about it. Young children can be listened to, people who don't always get a voice.

The stage is that space. And what did it do for you, finding that space? I think, you know, throughout my life, I may have felt very silenced in many different occasions. But when I think this is why I'm so competitive, because when I get on that stage, just something happens to me. The stage is a sacred space. The page is a sacred space. And then when I can take it from the page to the stage and just something happens. And, you know, when you see people like Joelle Taylor perform and you hear voices that you don't normally hear those marginalized silence voices it tells everybody that there's a space for

them and i think that's what poetry and specifically slam poetry does page poetry is important but there's also something about hearing an authentic voice and having that space that's so important so we're talking about wellness uh generally and things we can do to make ourselves feel good about ourselves on a daily basis. Would you recommend that we all get writing and give this a go? Oh, my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, please. During the whole pandemic, obviously we weren't outside. So I started running these women's classes called How to Write the Shh Away. And we met online. We're still meeting every Thursday night, and it was a space to just journal

and just get all the angst of the lockdown out, but also to get creative. And I think women shouldn't be frightened to just step on the stage, because I have seen many men in my time perform who have been, okay, okay, they've been all right, but women sometimes lack the confidence. The space is there.

We need to claim it. Kat Francois, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's it from me. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello. I've got a story to tell you.

It's called The Coming Storm, a new podcast series from BBC Radio 4 and the World Service. On January the 6th, 2021, a mob stormed the capital in Washington, D.C. It looked like a strange fantasy had gripped America, about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen an election. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse, and I've been looking for the origins of this twisted tale. It was a puzzle, and it kind of compiled a story.

But what began as a quest to understand a conspiracy theory known as QAnon turned into something else, something bigger. It is remarkable where we've ended, and we haven't ended, have we? Subscribe to The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.