Woman's Hour - Migrant boat deaths in Italy, Gambling addiction and crime, 60 swims at 60, Getting married at 16

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

At least 59 migrants, including 33 women and 12 children, have died and dozens more are feared missing after their boat sank in rough seas off southern Italy. The vessel broke apart while trying to land near Crotone on Sunday. A baby was among the dead, Italian officials said. Bodies were recovered from the beach at a nearby seaside resort in the Calabria region. Nuala speaks to Caroline Davis, BBC Pakistan Correspondent and Annalisa Camilli, journalist for Internazionale magazine in Rome.A new report from the Howard League of Penal Reform looks at the links between women, gambling and crime. They say women are being let down by a lack of awareness and action to tackle the problem by police, probation and prisons - leaving them without the support they need. Dr Julie Trebilcock, senior Lecturer in Criminology at Brunel University London, and one of the researchers on the project, joins Nuala, along with Tracey whose gambling addiction resulted in a 13 month prison sentence.We speak to author Sara Barnes, about the challenge she set herself to mark her sixtieth birthday, sixty swims with sixty different people.Today the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Minimum Age) Act comes into effect, raising the age of marriage and civil partnership to 18 in England and Wales which means 16 and 17-year-olds will no longer be able to marry or enter a civil partnership under any circumstances, including with parental or judicial consent. It's what campaigners against child marriage have worked towards for many years. We thought it would be interesting on this day of change in the marriage laws in England and Wales, to look back at the experiences of some of you who got married willingly at 16. Nuala talks to listeners Judith and Jeanette.The Taliban's severe restrictions on women's rights in the country are having a negative impact on the already struggling economy. That's the conclusion of a study by the International Crisis Group – an independent organisation that works on conflict and policy. Since women were barred from university education and work in offices, including NGO's, cuts to foreign donor funds have become more likely, as many western politicians fear their voters will not accept the idea of their taxes helping a country ruled by the Taliban. Nuala is joined now by the BBC's Zarghuna Kargar.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Now, you may have seen today the Marriage and Civil Partnership, the Minimum Age Act, as it's called, comes into effect, raising the legal age to marry to 18 in England and also Wales. This follows years of campaigning to try and stop child marriage and also the harm that has been caused by it.

Previously, forced marriage was only an offence if coercion such as threats were used. Now, it is illegal to arrange for children to marry under any circumstances. The changes do not apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland, I should say, where the minimum age for marriage will remain at 16 for now. In previous generations, many people would have willingly got married perhaps at a much younger age than today.

The average woman, she's in her 30s when she marries now. But for some of you, you did do it back at 16. We're going to hear some of our listeners' stories, But for some of you, you did do it back at 16. We're going to hear some of our listeners' stories, decades on, of course, about how it did or did not work out. You can text the programme.

The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. If you'd like to leave us a voice note or WhatsApp message, that number is 03700 100 444.

Also today, we want to talk about women and gambling. You'll hear the story of one woman whose life was severely impacted by her addiction. And we're also going to look at a new report, it's also published today, that researched how women are affected by gambling and also the crimes related to it. That is an aspect that hasn't been talked about very much. Plus, 60 swims with 60 people to mark 60 years.

That is also coming up. But let me begin with the story of at least 59 migrants, including 33 women and 12 children who have died. There are dozens more that are feared missing after their boat sank in rough seas off southern Italy. The vessel broke apart while trying to land near Crotone on Sunday and a baby was among the dead, according to Italian officials. There are bodies that were recovered from the beach at a nearby seaside resort in the Calabria region. We're going to speak to Caroline Davis, who's a BBC Pakistan correspondent, but let us begin

with Annalisa Camilli, journalist for Internazionale magazine in Rome. Thank you for joining us, Annalisa. Good morning. What is it that you're hearing at the moment from the Calabrian region? The situation is that 60 migrants perished, but we fear that thousands of migrants dead. Now 80 persons were rescued. But according to NHCR, the boat departed from Turkey and was crowded with 170 people, maybe 200 people.

Among them, a lot of refugees from Syria, Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan, but also people from Pakistan and Iran. I understand. Sorry, Annalisa, just to interrupt you. And I know you mentioned the figure thousands at the beginning there, but it is hundreds that people expect were on this boat. Yes, hundreds, hundreds. Hundreds of people, maybe. I understand.

I mean, I was struck by the number of 33 women and 12 children that have died. What do we know so far about them, if anything? Yes, we know now we are gathering the first interviews. Well, psychologists of Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross are speaking with survivors, with women who are inside the centers, and they are telling that the people who have lost their lives, there were families. That's why there are so many women, because usually in Italy, well, most% of migrants arriving in Italy was coming from this route, using this old new route.

Well, they are families. That's why there were so many women among them, women and children, because they are Afghani and Syrian, Sandirani families that was in Turkey, that was traveling in Turkey. They cannot reach Europe through Greece because in the last few years,

the route that connect Turkey to Greece is most dangerous, it's very dangerous, and also Greek authorities are pushing them back. Therefore, this new route opened, departing from Turkey. As I told, it's a route that is more expensive in respect of the other route. But mostly families are using this kind of route. They are refugees from Afghanistan, from Syria, that was based in Turkey. I understand. And Annalisa, we also have Caroline Davis joining us, the BBC's Pakistan correspondent. Good to have you with us,

Caroline. We do understand there were a number of migrants on board from Pakistan as well. What are you hearing? Yes, we are still waiting for an official announcement from the Pakistan authorities to say exactly how many they believe were on board and how many people they think might

have died. Earlier, they released an announcement from the Foreign Office here saying that they were trying to establish contact with families of the victims. Most of them, they believe, are from the Gujarat district in Punjab. Now, that is an area that is quite common to have human trafficking.

That is an area where there are many reports of people being taken from Gujarat and being trafficked into other parts of the world. But in terms of the information here, it's still very patchy. We know that there are reports on social media, photos being shared on WhatsApp as well, alleging to show those who have died, quite graphic images of the dead alongside pictures of their passports or ID cards. And that is why some people are trying to identify their loved ones.

But it's still very difficult at the moment. Speaking to the authorities here, they say that they are waiting for official confirmation from the Italian authorities so that they can then continue with the process of trying to identify

and get hold of families. They've also said that they are already starting and initiating an inquiry against the human smugglers responsible and they've said that they have formed teams to arrest them. Let me turn back to you then, Annalisa. The Interior Minister, Matteo Piantosi, he has been visiting the scene. Is there a search and rescue operation still being carried out? Yes, the rescue operation is ongoing. They are searching for people alive. But of course, the fear is that they can recover other bodies, other dead bodies and not people alive. Because, well, the rescue, the search, the weather was very bad, is very bad today too.

And the rescue operation was activated very late in respect because we know that Frontex, a plane of Frontex, has seen this boat hours and hours before they sank. But, well, the intervention of the rescue ship was delayed. And the front text, just to tell our listeners, is the European Border and Coast Guard Agency. So it's a government agency and people are trying to piece this together

of exactly how did it occur. But Annalisa, staying with you for a moment, what is the Italian Prime Minister, Giorgia Maloney, saying? Because she was elected last year partly on a pledge to stem the flow of migrants coming into Italy.

Yes, yesterday she said that she is shocked by this shipwreck. But basically, as the Minister of Interior, Matteo Piantidosi, she said that this is happening because of the departure, because people are departing and they don't should depart. that in the coming years, starting in 2017, but her government has cracked down against, has criminalized humanitarian boats and also rescue boats.

And the atmosphere around migration is very bad. In Italy, last week, the parliament approved a new law against humanitarian organizations that do search and rescue at sea. And basically, at the moment, there is no rescue boats in the Mediterranean. And also the governative vessels are not operating like in the past. In the past, for example, in 2013, we had a big shipwreck in Lampedusa with 368 people from Eritrea dying on the shore of Lampedusa. And then the government, the Italian government, launched this search and rescue, the Mission Mare Nostrum. But since 2017, the situation became very, very bad for rescuers.

They were criminalised. And Giorgio Meloni basically continued this criminalisation against rescuers. Yes, and indeed was elected partly on a pledge because it is popular with parts of the Italian electorate as well. Caroline, is there discussions taking place between Pakistan

and Italy when it comes to the people that are leaving, going through Turkey in this particular respects and then ending up in Calabria as this latest boat was trying to do? So we understand that there are interactions obviously between Italy and

Pakistan and the authorities to be able to understand exactly what's happened and who has been involved but how much information is going between the two we don't know for definite. I think it would also be interesting to say that the reports that are being shared on social media here are talking about the fact that Pakistan families thought that their loved ones were going through Libya rather than going through Turkey. So that is another point of confusion about exactly what happened here. But yes, I think that the key point is that many people find that they can't necessarily move on. They're hearing a lot of reports about their loved ones potentially being involved in this disaster, but they don't know for definite whether or not their loved ones have survived, whether they are among those who might have died, but they don't know for definite whether or not their loved ones survived,

whether they are among those who might have died until they get this official confirmation through. And so there's a point of limbo for a lot of families here. And Annalisa was telling me that an awful lot of women died in this particular incident. We were seeing 33 women, 12 children.

A lot of Afghanghan and syrian women were expected to be on that boat were people from pakistan do we know uh the demographic i think it's really difficult to say without those confirmations the images that i've seen on social media have so far been images of men but that doesn't necessarily of course mean that there weren't others who were on board the boat but at this point we still have very little and confirmed information and there's a lot of conjecture happening here um around social media channels but also uh some more local media who were reporting on this story as well about exactly who was involved exactly what has happened so still a really unclear unclear picture from here in Pakistan.

Thank you so much for speaking to us. That's Caroline Davis, BBC Pakistan correspondent and Annalisa, camelli journalist for Internationale magazine, which is in Rome. Just seeing Angela getting in touch says, why is safe passage never discussed? The real criminals are those who prevent people

from just getting on a plane. Also, I have been asking about a law that has come into effect today in England, Wales, which is about getting married young. The law that has come in is about child marriages and trying to stop children getting forced into marriage. It's something that campaigners have been working on for a very long time. You may have remembered some of those discussions. But we are also, in addition, speaking to some of our listeners who have got married at the age of 16. And it's probably a number of years on with some people that are getting in touch,

reflecting on that marriage and how it did or did not work out. So we are asking you to get in touch with us, 84844. I'm seeing Jo got in touch. She says,

when I married, I was 16 and a half. My husband was 20. The marriage has been a success. We're celebrating our 52nd wedding anniversary today. Another is, my friend set me up

on a blind date, age 17, and her friend, he was 22. I thought he was rather nice. It would be lovely to go out with him. We will be married 39 years this 14th of July,

Bastille Day. We have three beautiful children and three beautiful grandchildren. So kind of two discussions that are taking place there as we talk about that law coming into effect. But also, some of you reflecting on getting married young willingly, I should say.

Let me move on next to an area that perhaps isn't spoken about that much. A new report by the Howard League of Penal Reform looking at links between women, gambling and crime. Women whose lives have been affected by crime linked to gambling have spoken about their experiences and also about how a lack of awareness among agencies at each stage of the criminal justice system, from police stations to prisons,

they say it left them without the support that they needed. I'm joined by Dr. Judy Troublecock, a senior lecturer in criminology at Brunel University London, who was one of the researchers on this project, and also Tracy, whose gambling addiction resulted in a 13-month prison sentence. Welcome to you both. You're both very welcome to Woman's Hour. And let me start with you, Julie. The Howard League set up this commission, this is back in 2019, to investigate the links between crime and gambling-related harms, as it described.

Why take a look at women specifically? Thank you. Yes, so we, through the series of the commissioned research, there's been now three years of different projects that have been commissioned. And I think the commission has done a very good job to look at a whole range of issues relating to criminal justice, looking at issues around policing, sentencing, and also imprisonment. But through that research and through previous research that's available, there's a real lack of understanding about women and gambling, and particularly in relation to women gambling and crime.

So one of the things that our research tried to do was to really explore that in much more detail and really to give women a voice about what's going on in this area. And is there an aspect that came to the fore about why women started to gamble in the first place? So one of the things that previous research suggests and our research confirms is that some of the reasons why women may gamble compared to perhaps men are often quite different. So a lot of the women in our research report, you know, reported a number of different reasons why they were gambling. But what perhaps they had in common was that there was often a, what we call a constellation of different stresses and traumas that was sometimes quite specific to

women's lives. So women talk about a range of different health experiences, of financial challenges, problems with relationships, sometimes quite controlling relationships, perhaps experiences of domestic abuse. And, you know, sometimes problems at relationships, perhaps experiences of domestic abuse, and sometimes problems at work and how these kind of come together and in some respects end up driving gambling. But of course, for those who develop a particular problem with gambling may then also lead them to commit crime in order to fund that gambling. And what sort of gambling? What are we talking about? So there was a range of different kind of gambling amongst the women in our study. And that was one of the quite interesting things that they often used a range of different gambling products.

Perhaps the most common ones were kind of electronic gaming machine kind of shops, but, you know, essentially kind of bookmaker in the communities, but also people going to casinos and increasingly also online gambling. And online gambling is quite a significant issue in relation to women because we know that more women do gamble online. I want to bring in Tracey. Tracey, thanks so much for coming on the programme today. What about you?

When you hear Julie talking about some of the aspects of why other women began to gamble, what was your story? First of all, thank you for having me here. The reason my addiction really started was coming through a coercive marriage and a difficult divorce, having to provide for two children to try and give them the things

that their father might have been able to give them because whatever he did, he only allowed them to keep at his house type of thing so the odds were set against me from the beginning I had very little belief in myself or self-confidence and I always had the hope that there would be a big win you know that I could provide all mine and my children's needs you know And that was always at the forefront of my mind. What sort of gambling did you do? It was on the machine.

Which is also one of the most addictive, really, because it's the fastest playing game, as well as the in-sport betting and things like that. Things that are very, very quick. You get the results very quickly. So that was my point, my play. I understand. How long did it take you to realize that you could have a problem? I always hid from the problem.

I would refuse to accept that I had a problem. It was only when my addiction and reality literally had a head-on collision and I had to admit to what I had done to my employer that I realized just how severe the problem was. And also because at the time that the crime started, it menopause, menopause set in. So this was also a very difficult, a difficult period you go through. And it's just as silent as the addiction itself. So it was a crime that was committed because of your gambling addiction. Definitely. Every penny taken went on this addiction.

I understand. And they can be called acquisitive crimes Julie, that you have also looked into because the larger ramification, the addiction in itself of course but then also how they might then intersect with the criminal system because of crimes committed because of the addiction.

Yes, that's correct. So we were trying to really look at the relationship with crime more broadly. So of course, there is in our research, you know, lots of women who disclosed having committed a financial or acquisitive crime in order to support their gambling. But one of the things we were also interested to look at was to think more broadly about crime and think about some of the other experiences of crime that women may have. So, for example, a few of the women we spoke to talked about quite coercive and controlling relationships within the home, experiences of domestic abuse. So essentially kind of experiences of victimisation that they felt were relevant to them increasingly gambling and

ultimately going on to potentially commit a crime themselves. So there was a very kind of interesting dynamic and relationship between gambling and crime. And again, some of the women that we spoke potentially commit a crime themselves. So there was a very kind of interesting dynamic and relationship between gambling and crime. And again, some of the women that we spoke to disclosed that they themselves, one woman talked to us about, you know, in hindsight, how she herself had perhaps engaged in domestic abuse with her partner

because she obviously needed at that point to try and secure money in order to continue gambling. I mean, a shocking part of your story, Tracy, you've alluded to there that you were taking from a company that you were stealing due to your addiction. But you ended up with a 13-month prison sentence. Go ahead. Sorry, sorry.

I was given a three-year sentence. I served just over 13 months in prison. I understand. Five months on tag and another 18 months, which is coming to an end soon, on license. And did you ever think when you were gambling that it might come to that? No, no.

I never, ever saw myself. I used to sit in person thinking am i really here it's absolutely i never thought i would land up then i never thought it would carry on for the seven years that it did my you know my my spiraling addiction out of control what about when you were in there i'm just wondering tr you know, when you meet other people in there and that you're in there for a gambling related crime, was it understood? Was there any help? No, absolutely not. There was absolutely no help. The CJS and the public health sector are worlds apart, especially on this addiction there was no help I was also there two weeks after I was in prison a COVID struck so the whole world was locked down there was no mental health help even though it was recognized that I needed it I had to provide my own help for myself

you mean by researching or trying to figure out how to cope with the addiction by um by looking into myself by researching myself you could call it we were locked away for 23 hours a day so there was no real socializing or looking at anything it was all done from me so it was the nature I was able to see us I was very fortunate to have an amazing window to look out I saw horses and open fields and it was amazing and that nature allowed me the quiet time that I needed to actually look into myself and find out why the addiction had taken control and why I had allowed certain things to happen in my life. And your understanding now is?

My understanding now is to bring as much awareness of this addiction. So let me turn back to you, Julie. What are you looking for when you've completed this research? Or where are you seeing that there needs to be changes? Yeah, thanks. I mean, we've made a number of recommendations across the report. And I think as Tracy's illustrated very well, there's a real concern through our research, but also previous research that's been done by the commission, that there is just a real lack of awareness about gambling at every stage of the criminal justice system. So, you know, many participants talk about, you know, going to the police, telling them absolutely everything, telling them about things that the police didn't even know

about. And sometimes, you know, almost kind of pleading and begging for some kind of help and, you know, kind of recognition of the role that gambling plays. But at every point, as they move from the police through to kind of prosecution and the criminal courts, and then for those who end up in prison or under supervision, under probation, the community, that lack of awareness and lack of screening and lack of understanding about the role of gambling plays in crime continues. And of course, because people aren't asking the questions about the role of gambling plays in crime continues. And of course, because people aren't asking the questions about the role that gambling may have played, people then aren't also being given the support. And I think that's really important because it's

got really, really significant implications for people like Tracy, who are trying to rebuild their lives and recover from not only gambling, but also essentially the crimes that they've committed. But of course, it's got implications much more widely for society. You know, if we're not providing people with support with their gambling, and they come out into the community, and those issues remain unresolved, then, you know, we're not, you know, kind of ultimately doing what we need to do to help people. And what about you, Tracy? I mean, when you came out then, was the help there? No, no. Before I went into prison, it was 11 months. And in those 11 months, I had sought help myself, which I got through the GAM Care charity. And the counsellor stayed with me the whole way through until I went into prison and then provided support for my husband, who also needed it at that time.

So coming out of the system, there was nothing. I already had it in my mind that this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to share my story, tell it, just let people know and recognize just how bad this addiction is and the illness that it really is and the products that are so addictive and allowed to be out there. How would you describe that addiction? I mean, about when you got, if it's a craving, if that's the correct word, to go and gamble even though you knew it was a problem? You know, you're talking about a, I won't say a sane mind, but you're talking about a mind that is in control.

And you're talking about a mind that is not in control. When you're in the groups of this addiction, you are not in control. You cannot take a moment, as they say, to think about it. It's not there. If you cannot use these terms with other addictions, drugs and alcohol and all of that, you cannot use it with a gambling addiction. You can't see the addiction and you can gamble all hours, day and night. But it's hidden.

That's why it's called the hidden addiction. It is. It's in you go play. And today people walk around with casinos in their pockets. I did it in on the street. And there's these shops are everywhere. I'm scared to go out on the high street today because there's six, seven shops. You know, I thought of you, Tracy,

because I read your story a couple of days ago. And since then, I've been walking around. And every time I see one, I have thought of you, even before meeting you. And they are pervasive. There's no two ways about it. I want to read some texts that have come in. Julie, perhaps you'd like to respond to this.

My daughter, 22, is addicted to gotchas in games. It's a type of gambling where you spend money to obtain a random item during game play. When she was younger, she stole from me for this. She still spends too much time on them. I wish I could help. What could he do? Well, it's a really good question

I mean there are I think we found through the research increasing numbers of services that are out there and I think again one of our recommendations is about improving that visibility so Gamcare is certainly a really really good service and then there's many many more kind of local services that are providing useful support to people who are gambling and I think what that story highlights

is just how gambling is changing so quickly and increasingly with things like online gambling, but also gaming, it's really kind of starting to cause problems in many people's lives. Tracey, what would you say to that person who got in touch? This is so sad. I've had my 11-year-old grandson tell me about stories that are happening within his grade at school. It is so hard. People have got to get away from it. industry that needs so badly to be governed, but governs itself. And this should never be allowed. There's no duty of care whatsoever with this industry.

And this needs to be looked at. It needs to be a huge thing because so many youngsters, so many young men, women are taking their lives because of this addiction. It is a serious, serious, serious addiction and it's not taken as seriously as it should be. And I do not have a response from the industry today to some of the claims that you're putting forward there, Tracy, but I take it that it's from your personal experience

that you're putting it across today. I want to thank both of you so much for coming in to join us. Tracy, who's been sharing her story candidly about her gambling addiction and also Dr. Julie Treblecock, a senior lecturer in criminology at Brunel University in London.

Now, if you want to get in touch with the programme and if you are this morning, it's 84844 or indeed at BBC Woman's Hour on social media or email us through our website. I want to turn to new challenges. Maybe you've thought about it. Maybe you've done it. Learning a new skill or maybe pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone.

Sarah Barnes decided to do that after a diagnosis of osteoarthritis and coming up to her 60th birthday. Sarah set herself the challenge of 60 swims with 60 people in her, yes, 60th year. Well, the year is up and Sarah joins me now to discuss. Listen, first off, I believe you're 61 today. Happy birthday. Thank you. Thank you, Nuala. And thank you for having me on today.

You're so welcome. And so what made you decide and how did you come up with this challenge of 60 swims, 60 people in your 60th year? Well, I'm a cold water swimmer anyway. And I swim every day in cold water. I didn't want to be 60. I think basically, I was very afraid of being starting a new decade. And it just seemed a very old decade. I remember my mum being 60. And I thought, I've got to do something about this. I can't go into the year, not wanting to, you know, to live it. So I decided to challenge myself. I've always challenged myself on things. And I thought what I need to do is I was very worried about being alone because I've just started being an empty nester. My son's gone off to uni and that scared me as well.

And I wanted to connect with more people. So which is why I chose 60 different people. And I chose the 60 different places because I wanted to get out of my comfort zone and my little area of where I am. There's a lot of rural isolation where I am in the Lake District. So I kind of made everything difficult for myself to push myself deliberately. So where did you find these 60 people? Good question. Not all of them were human. I'll say that to start with.

In Spain, I was in a river, swimming in a river, and I saw this inflatable swan being played with by some kids. So in my best Spanish, I asked them with lots of gestures, could I go on your swan? So there's some quite funny video of them shoving me up onto this inflatable swan. And then I decide, well, I'm swimming with a swan. Why not? 59 to go. Yeah. And there've been occasions like that. It's just evolved. It's been very organic. But what about meeting all those people?

What kind of stands out for you perhaps as the most challenging moment during the year? I think probably motivation. I did question myself, why am I doing this? Because it's quite a lot. If I, you know, a number of weeks and so on. It's quite a lot to fit in around normal life. And then the different places, just the fact of having to go to different places. I decided that I could take one lake and different access points. And if I happened to be at an access point I hadn't been at before, if somebody came along, I would just say, oh, excuse me, I'm doing this challenge.

Would you mind, you know, just paddling with me, sitting in the water with me? And everybody I asked agreed to do it. You know, even non-swimmers took the clothes off and went in with me I love that I love that I wondered if people say you know there's a lady down there and she might ask you to go swimming with her uh but but but it's good fun good yeah did you make any friends out of the year yes I did I met a lady um she's 80 she's called Elizabeth um and I happened to find her in a river pool um one day it was actually my mum's it would have been my mum's birthday um and

Elizabeth just was in the pool and my mum's middle name was Elizabeth um and Elizabeth said it's all right I'll get out you you know you want to have this pool to yourself I'll get out and I said, it's all right, I'll get out. You know, you want to have this pool to yourself. I'll get out. And I said, no, no, please stay, please stay. And then I asked her if she'd be one of my 60s. And we've ended up meeting again for swims. We've had coffee together. She phoned me up the old fashioned way to say congratulations

on the publication of my book, The Cold Fix. And she's lovely. And it's just just so nice and it's inspired me. She's done the Wainwrights six times and she started when she was 60. So there's a woman to aspire to be like. Well, I'm wondering, you know, you've just turned or turning 61 today. Are there any more challenges on the horizon? Yes, I'm going to do one this year. I've just been told I'm going to have to have total knee replacements,

which I've spent six years trying to get over a previous operation for osteoarthritis. So now this has knocked me back I feel but what I'm going to do is try and swim in 61 tarns and waterfalls but walk at least 20 minutes to get to them because what I want to do is spend this year getting physically stronger and I'm going to do strength training weight training and I'm going to challenge myself physically. I've met a lot of people. It's just to be as strong as I can be going into my 60s. That's my challenge for this year. So looking back, how was 60? It was fantastic, actually. That's what I want to hear. Not a bad year at all. Well, listen, enjoy the rest of your birthday and thank you so much for joining us.

That's fantastic. 60 swims, 60 people, 60th year. I love this idea of the waterfalls in the year coming up, coming ahead. And thanks so much to Sarah Barnes. Thank you. You're welcome. I want to return to a story I was mentioning at the beginning of the programme. It's something that so many of you are getting in touch about.

Today, the Marriage and Civil Partnership, the Minimum Age Act, comes into effect. Now, this act raises the age of marriage and civil partnership to 18 in England and Wales. So that means 16 to 17-year-olds will no longer be able to marry or enter a civil partnership under any circumstances, including with parental or judicial consent. Now, the changes do not apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where the minimum age for marriage will remain 16. In Northern Ireland, parental consent is required for those under 18, but not in Scotland. Ministers in Northern Ireland have previously said they plan to increase the minimum age of marriage to 18. But as you may know, with the devolved government not currently functioning, legislation cannot be brought forward.

But what is happening in England and Wales today is a huge social change that campaigners like Paisley and Mahmood have worked for a very long time to stop child marriage. I was married at age 16 and it was a really unique and special time in my life. I was about to head off to college and I was coerced into a child marriage and this was to a man very much older than me. He was almost twice my age, a pretty much complete stranger to me and as I say it was such a important time in my childhood, in my development, and that hindered so much of it, you know, my access to education and the opportunities that go through it and then it was almost my turn. But a very confusing thing to go through,

something that no 16-year-old should have to go through. So this law today hopes to put an end to stories like that of Paisley Mahmud told there to our colleagues on BBC Five Live this morning. And of course, we know that overall, the age at which people get married has gone up considerably

in the last few decades. And most people, we know that overall, the age at which people get married has gone up considerably in the last few decades and most people get married in their 30s. That's the latest figures that we have. But we thought it would be interesting on this day of change in the marriage laws in England and Wales to look back at the experiences of some of you who got married

willingly at 16. And so we asked you to get in touch with your experiences. Was it a success or was it a decision you came to regret? Are you still in that relationship or did it end rather quickly? Many of you did send messages in, many of you continue to do so this morning. But my next guest did, Judith and Jeanette, and they are here to tell us what it was like to say

I do at such a young age. Right, let's hear their stories. Judith, why did you decide to get married at 16 and welcome? Yes. Judith, can you hear me OK? I think you're on mute. I'm going to say you're on mute. Give it there. You're probably being very polite for our previous guest. There you go, Judith.

We have you with us. My, my, that makes a change, not being able to hear me. Yes, I got married when I was 16. And it was quite an interesting set of circumstances. I'll need to take you through the story a little bit. My parents were divorced when I was two or three year old. And my mother did a sterling job of raising me as a single parent. And she met a lovely chap when I was around about 11 who she married and my stepfather suffered from paranoid schizophrenia which was really quite difficult for everybody, for all of us involved in that situation. I did meet a chap

who was older than me and I guess I saw him as a way of escape from a difficult situation. I left home before I did my O-levels, my GCSEs, and at the age of 16, I found that I didn't have any money, any access to money, and I didn't have any accommodation. And the only way I could get either of those was actually by getting married at 16, which enabled me to get into the benefits system and for me to to receive a council house and that's 40 year ago but that's that's how

and why I got married when I was 16. And the marriage how did it go? It didn't last it lasted for around about three years and I was it wasn't in any way an unpleasant marriage and but I was it wasn't in any way an unpleasant marriage. But I was just far, far too young. And I feel at the time that I feel now there are far more options available for people of that age who find themselves in difficult circumstances than there were when I was 16. And for me, it was it worked. It was it provided what i needed at the time but it's definitely not something that i would recommend or suggest to any other 16 year old because let's be honest we are although we do think we know everything at 16 well i certainly did and you you don't really and you are very vulnerable and very open to i i'm things not going well i mentioned there was was a lot of messages coming in.

One, I was married before the age of 17 to someone I believed was the love of my life. 13 months later, he walked out and left me. I think we're too inexperienced to deal with conflict. Jeanette, what about you? Your story. Well, again, quite similar circumstances.

I mean, we both came back from difficult backgrounds. I mean, we both came back from difficult backgrounds. I think that the, and yes, we were extremely young. But at the same time, we were in love. And if I'd have told my 16-year-old self I'd still be married 40 years later, I would never have believed it because, my goodness, we had some really tough times. And I agree with Margaret in the fact that I do think that kids these days

aren't as prepared, even though, yes, again, at 16 years old, I thought I knew everything. I knew absolutely nothing. But in the same token, I'm very much for this bill because kids of today are not as life skill prepared at all. And as for coercion, you know, I mean, that's a whole different set of complexities. You know, kids of 16 these days should never be able to be forced into a marriage. I was lucky, as I said.

It was your husband, Dave, who messaged us, Jeanette. Let me read a little of what he said. My wife, Jeanette, was a month short of 17 and I was a month short of 21 when we married. We knew each other for 10 months and she was three months pregnant. Nobody gave us a chance of staying the course. I'm happy to say we're celebrating

our 40th anniversary in May. Three grown- up children, five grandchildren. Not saying it's been plain sailing all the way but it worked out between us. What does it feel like to hear those words? It's lovely. After all these years.

You know we are still very supportive of each other and we still love each other, which is pretty remarkable in this day and age. So many messages that are coming in. I saw another that maybe you'd resonate with you. We married two weeks before my 18th birthday. We've been married 53 years in April,

but these laws would have stopped me. We proved our case. It doesn't always work if you marry older. It needs to be done on individual cases. We must prevent forced marriage, however. Back to you, Judith. You have a daughter. What would you have told her

if she came to you and said, I want to get married at 16? Well, I have a son. And if he came to you and said, I want to get married at 16? Well, I have a son and if he came to me, I would have not wanted him to have got married at such a young age because it's such a big commitment. So that's you with the son. Sorry, Jeanette, I believe it's you that has a daughter.

What would you say? Absolutely not. But hang on, hang on, it worked out worked out i know but it's different it's it's about individuals and how um how mature they are uh how they're prepared um for such a big commitment because it's a massive commitment. If my daughter had come to me at 16 and said, Mum, I want to get married, I'd have done my utmost to talk her out of it.

Yes. What about, you were pregnant, I understand, Jeanette, in the, for example, when you were getting married, what did people say, friends, family,

was it expected of you to get married? No. Well, I say no, but there was still a certain stigma about being, going back 40 years, about being an unmarried mother and but it it it was a very different time I used to go to maternity um appointments and they used to call me Mrs. Dale, which was my maiden name initially. Because, you know, that's the way it was then.

Whereas now, I mean, so much has changed. But, yeah, friends and family. We didn't tell too many people initially. I told my parents. Obviously, that went down really well. Yeah, you're being sarcastic. Yeah, just a bit. But at that point, my parents went all modern on me and said,

we're not going to allow you to get married. You can have the baby and mum will bring it up. And we said, absolutely no way, we'd have run away. You would have run away. Yeah, I mean, getting pregnant was not a mistake, it was an intention. And I thought, because my parents were quite old-fashioned, I thought they'd be charging me up the aisle. We wanted to get married before we got married.

And what about you, Judith? What was the reaction? Everybody was really shocked. It was, for me, I wasn't pregnant. Funnily enough, actually, my mother was, my mum was actually eight months pregnant with my sister. There's the two of us. When I got married, everybody was surprised.

Everybody thought it was really quite irrational. I lost contact with my friends at school. It was a really odd thing to do. I'd been very clever at school. It was anticipated that I'd go on to university or at least to go on and do my A-levels. And I wasn't in a position to do that. So for me, I felt like it took me outwith of my normal group of family and friends and set me up in a very different life.

Now, I was very lucky to be surrounded by some very good friends and some very good people who have kept me clear in my life and seen me become successful. But it was a really odd decision. Not one of my school friends attended my wedding. Oh, I think that's quite telling, isn't it? Absolutely. I was an outcast. That's how it felt. I mean, gosh, that word's just come to me, but that is how I felt. I was an outcast. I had done something outrageously difficult.

To leave home before my A-levels at that time was outrageous in itself. But to then to go on, get married and not be pregnant. Why would anybody do that? I'll be honest with you when you reflect back and I look at my class at school, I was clever at school. I was in the top class. Everybody else in my class at school came from private houses and had more financially than I did. And therefore, I don't think they were able to quite understand the situation I found myself in. And at the time, mental illness and mental health was completely,

just not talked about. It really, it was challenging. I saw one more message that came in just to read to you. I was married at 17 because I was pregnant and escaping parental divorce problems. I was married for 16 years, but only because I was seconded abroad and wasn't able to take my two children out of the country without their father's permission. The marriage was physically and emotionally violent. I managed to escape when on leave in the UK and both my girls were in boarding school. I was alone for 16 years, but have since been married for 32 years to a lovely man.

And our listeners seem to split down among those that it was a short marriage and they got out or some of these that they felt coerced into it in some ways as well, not in the sense of it's been talked about today in the news, but in the sense of that

they didn't feel they had another option. And then others, many getting in the sense of that they didn't feel they had another option. And then others, Manny getting in touch to say that they've been married for a very long time. Margaret saying, I was 17 when I married

my husband of 23 years of age. 61 years ago, we worked together for 42 years. A lot of give and take from us both. We laugh together and do things for each other

and watch out for one another. And we hope to carry on for a few more years, God willing. Jeanette, you're celebrating your 40th wedding anniversary this year. What are the plans and what is the secret to a happy marriage? I think all of the last message you read out, all of the above, you know, a lot of give and take and listening to each other

and just being there for each other, being supportive. And as I said, I didn't intend 40 years ago to still be here, but hey, we're still here. Well, happy upcoming anniversary to you and thanks so much to yourself and also to Judith for joining us and to all the listeners who got in touch. I want to return to Afghanistan next. The Taliban's severe restrictions on women's rights in the country. They're having a negative impact on the already struggling economy.

That's the conclusion of a study by the International Crisis Group, an independent organisation that works on conflict and policy. And since women were barred from university education and work both in offices, donor funds have become less likely to be invested in the country. There's many Western politicians fear their voters will not accept the idea of their taxes helping a country ruled by the Taliban, according to the researchers. I'm joined with the BBC's Zarghuna Kargar to discuss a little bit further.

Welcome, Zarghuna. Thank you. How can you get donors and donor money back into Afghanistan without empowering the Taliban? That's what I was just speaking to Afghans before I came to the studio to just get a latest update. And I was saying, like, how is that possible? And some were telling me, like, we would like to tell the international community to do not make the mistake that was made 20 years ago.

Instead of giving aid, make investment in Afghanistan. One person was telling me, like, there are women who are, there were many, many women who were working in small businesses. They were leading small businesses that were recruiting more women and more men. And they have stopped

because there's no investment for them. So they were requesting that kind of help from the base, not like just giving aid. And also in our country, in Afghanistan, 43 million population, two in three people need humanitarian aid. So at the moment, the situation is quite dire and they do requesting help from donor organizations on daily basis with food, with winter supplies, and also on long-term investment, which will help the people. Maybe not, it will be, including the Taliban government, but from the basis it helps people in general. What does it mean to the Afghan economy to have a labor force without women?

Particularly, I'm thinking the sectors they were heavily involved in, agriculture, education and health care. It's struggling. It is in crisis. Many, many men who are now at work, they are getting half of their salaries, what they were getting. And since the Taliban takeover, the country has got poorer and poorer. I was speaking to one local shopkeeper. He said he does get goods in his shop, but there is no one to buy. There are people who need to buy it, but they don't have money to buy it. So at the moment, Afghans are really relying on their family and friends who are living abroad and sending them some monthly funds from the

countries like the UK, or they're basically sharing their own monthly income with their families in Afghanistan, or people who had some money saved and they are spending that. At the moment, it's that kind of situation. And there were a lot of poor people in Afghanistan before. So those poor people are still getting poorer. People who were managing to get daily life ahead a little bit, they are still managing it with the help of people who left or who were evacuated. Well, leaving is an aspect I wanted to mention to you because we were speaking at the beginning of the programme

about that terrible migrant disaster just off Italy. A lot of women involved were here, 33. They think many of those could have been Afghan women. So they continue to try and leave? Afghans have continued to try and leave. They were leaving before the Taliban came. And during the Taliban takeover, Afghans are desperately seeking new opportunities abroad. And as you say, in the migrant crisis, Afghans have always been there. Unfortunately, it's a tragedy for Afghan families. I know someone very, very close recently who drowned in Greece, and he was a family member. It's a tragedy that Afghans will never forget.

But those who get abroad, they do get a better life comparing to what they have had in Afghanistan. And just in our last 30 seconds or so, Zarghuna, I was reading that some women are trying to defy the education ban by secretly learning, whether it's on online universities or in secret schools. Yes, women have continued that through history in Afghanistan, through the first takeover of the Taliban. And now secret schools are continuing. But also they, those schools need

help. Those schools need updated education, education materials. So those kind of helps are a must for Afghans and the people. So even if it's happening underground, so to speak, help is needed in those aspects as well. Very interesting. Zarkuna Kakkar, thank you for joining us. On tomorrow's Woman's Hour, we're going to speak about the uterus. How much do

you know about it? Well, Leah Hazard is a practising NHS midwife in Scotland. She has this fascinating new book called Womb, blending the scientific and the historical research with women's experience, all about this amazing organ. So I do hope you'll join me for that on tomorrow on Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Please, I beg you in the name of God, I need some assistance from you. Who is worthy of our trust? I just thought this is very, very shady and there's something definitely wrong about this. He didn't believe me. I said, well, I'm not a schemer. I'm not a bad person. Join me, Matthew Side, for the latest season of my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Sideways.

Seven new stories of seeing the world differently and the ideas that shape our lives. I need to figure out a way to really compensate him or else I'm going to be the scammer that I accused him of being. Sideways on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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