Woman's Hour - Millie Bobby Brown, Arlo Parks, Martha's Rule

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

Millie Bobby Brown is a 19-year-old actress best known for her award-nominated performance as Eleven in Stranger Things, and for producing and starring in Enola Holmes. Now she has written a debut novel, Nineteen Steps, based on her grandmother’s life in the East End of London during the Second World War. She joins Nuala to talk about why she wanted to write the novel and why it’s so personal for her.In recent months there’s been increasing momentum for what has been called Martha’s rule which would give patients the power to get an automatic second medical opinion from other experts. This comes after the death of 13-year-old Martha Mills who died in hospital. An inquest concluded that her death had been preventable. So what difference could Martha’s Rule make to how much say patients have to question the decisions made by doctors? Paediatrician and health campaigner Dr Guddi Singh wants to empower people so that medical care works in their best interests and joins Nuala. Three quarters of police officers and staff accused of violence against women are not suspended by their force. That’s according to a joint investigation by the Independent newspaper and Refuge Charity. Nuala is joined by Ellie Butt, Head of Policy at Refuge. Mercury Prize Winning Musician Arlo Parks has turned her hand to poetry with her debut book, The Magic Border. It combines original poetry, song lyrics and images and she joins Nuala for an interview and live reading of one of the poems.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma PearceOpener 00:00 Martha’s Rule 01:23 Police accused of violence against women 12:50 Millie Bobby Brown 23:49 Arlo Parks 42:48

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, we have multi-talented women this morning. Arlo Parks, singer, songwriter and also poet. She'll be here to talk about her debut book, The Magic Border. It has poetry, it has photos, also fragments from her new album,

My Soft Machine, and Arlo will treat us to a live poetry reading. We also have Millie Bobby Brown, actor, UN Goodwill ambassador, businesswoman and now author. And she'll talk about 19 Steps, a historical novel set in London during World War II. Millie was inspired

by the extraordinary stories of her grandmother who lived through that time. So if you have a story about your grandmother that you think would make a good book, we want to hear them. Get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media

or at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. If you'd like to leave us a voice note or a WhatsApp message, that's 03700 100444. Also today, we'll discuss a joint investigation by the domestic abuse charity

Refuge and The Independent that says that three quarters of police officers and staff accused of violence against women are not suspended by their force despite the allegations against them and Mexico's supreme court has decriminalized abortion nationwide we will hear what the ruling means for women there but let me begin instead with patient safety in recent months there's been an increasing momentum for what has been called Martha's Rule. It would give patients the power to get an automatic second medical opinion from other experts and it comes

after the death of 13-year-old Martha Mills who died in hospital in August 2021. It followed a rare pancreatic trauma that she sustained after falling off her bike. Her mother Merope told us about the incident and Martha's death on Woman's Hour last year, you might remember. Merope told us that her family weren't listened to by senior doctors and they weren't given the full picture about Martha's deteriorating condition during her care. So they were unable to speak up and to request better treatment. An inquest concluded that Martha's death had been preventable, leading the hospital to apologise. Last week, Martha's mother, Merope, spoke on the Today programme.

You might have heard a little of it here on BBC Radio 4 and called for Martha's rule. Let's listen. Asking for a second opinion when there's deterioration shouldn't be a problem and it shouldn't involve confrontation and so the idea of martha's rule it effectively would formalize uh the idea of asking from a second um sorry for a second opinion um from a different team outside the, who are currently looking after you. If there's what was described in Martha's case, a sense of team blindness, or you feel like you're not being listened to. The General Medical Council, which regulates doctors,

states that all doctors must respect the patient's right to seek a second opinion, but there's no legal right to a second opinion. Some NHS hospitals do already have a way the patients can act in the face of concerns but Martha's parents want this formalised and available across the NHS. Earlier Sir Stephen Powis, the National Medical Director of NHS England was on the Today programme saying he recognises a need for change. Well let me be clear I absolutely agree that there needs to be change and I absolutely agree that there needs to be change. And I absolutely agree with Martha's mother that we need to bring in processes, and it may not just be one process, that ensures that

patient and relative's voice is heard when it needs to be heard. Of course, it needs to be heard at all times, but when a patient is deteriorating and it's not being spotted for whatever reason, that is a very, very particular time when it absolutely needs to be heard. And we do need to work out how we can indeed mandate that, as Martha's mother has said. We just want to make sure that we have a variety of models in place

if we have to, that work in all circumstances as best as possible. And so I will give you my commitments that we will work as rapidly on that as we can, as indeed the Secretary of State has given his commitment to. So what difference could Martha's rule make to how much say patients and their families have to question those decisions made by doctors? I'm joined by paediatrician Dr. Gudi Singh, who is campaigning for ways to empower patients so that medical care works in their best interests. I'd be curious, Dr. Goody, and welcome, your reaction to what you've heard there from Sir Stephen Powis.

Hello. And yes, of course, in terms of what he said, he said all the right things, right? But what we're talking about here is something that's at the centre of medicine, which is called the doctor-patient relationship. Now, for me as a doctor, this is this incredibly special and privileged space in which you as a patient can open up and I can learn about you. We can talk about potential diagnoses and together we can make plans about how to manage your symptoms and identify a path towards healing. And, you know, for all the high-tech, swanky scientific advances of the last hundred years, the doctor-patient relationship is still the bedrock of medical practice today. But what I described happens in healthy relationships, where you can have honesty and trust and open communication between equal partners. And, you know, we all know that in a good relationship, there is no imbalance of power. But that's not how the doctor-patient relationship tends to work, is it? Quite the opposite, right? Doctors occupy a really

privileged position in society. And in return for our expertise and services, the medical profession is rewarded with status, power and money. Now, let's be real about this. In Western society, status, power and money are not shared equally. And until recently, doctors have tended to be white, male and from the upper classes. Now, I'm not any of those things. I'm a brown female from a working class town in the northeast of England. And yet, so you could say things have changed, but the power dynamics within doctor-patient relationships have not. And as Martha Mills's case shows, the medicine is still an incredibly conservative institution and it is still riven with hierarchies. And the idea of deference to the doctor is still sewn into its very fabric.

And it is this imbalance of power that is resulting in the barriers that we see that lead to poor quality care. But that almost sounds different to me to what they're calling for with Martha's rule. So, for example, a legal right to a second opinion. And that's really what was being discussed this morning. But you're talking about something instead about trying to break down that hierarchy, something that has been embedded within institutions. Do you really think you can do that? I think it's incredibly difficult. And look, there has been pressure on the medical institution to change for decades. The reason that I think this is important, though, is that even if we were to introduce a legal right to a second opinion, and remember,

the GMC already says that doctors should respect a patient's right for a second opinion. The problem is that most patients and families are completely unaware that they have this right to question their doctors or medical care. And more to the point, I can tell you that most of my patients are not empowered to know how to exercise this right or critically how to do it quickly in an emergency. And it's because of those power imbalances that it becomes really difficult to raise your voice. So what about when we're hearing from Meripi, she was talking about, you know, having it pasted around the hospitals, having the numbers there. So when you're going to get a cup of coffee or sitting in a waiting room, that it's there right in front of you. Would that work? It absolutely works to raise awareness of the issue. And, you know, you talked to me,

you asked me, how are we going to change this? Change is slow and change is difficult. It's got to happen both from the outside and from the ground up, like Merope is trying to do, but also from within. And what's really important about something like Martha's rule is that it signals to the medical profession that it is time for things to change and that the public are no longer going to be putting up with what are quite frankly entrenched inequalities and entrenched ways of looking at patients. Yes, it's going to help. And I think actually what really is important here is that it helps the next generation of doctors to know how it is that they need to behave in these medical consultations. I'm going to say 84844 for our listeners if they want to get in touch, because

I think sometimes within hospital situations, and particularly serious ones, you don't want to annoy the doctor, if that's the correct term to use. And I think my listeners will know what I'm saying. And I suppose the question would be whether something like Martha's Rule, will doctors be in favour of it? And I know we can't talk about them as a monolithic group but could it also bring up any confrontations or contentious issues I mean what it what are doctors saying in response to it? You know some doctors are worried that patients would abuse powers like this because it would result in unnecessary reviews and add to their workload but we know from studies that have looked at previous initiatives, and this is not new, by the way, this has happened around the world elsewhere.

The studies show that almost all calls are warranted. And in most cases, they have led to improved outcomes, and in fact, lives being saved. Now, I'll tell you in my own practice, I welcome when patients challenge me, because it always makes things better. And I've never found that being open or being transparent and offering dignity and respect to my patients has ever taken advantage of. And I wonder whether some of the concerns that have been raised by doctors reveal more about the prejudices and fears of the profession that is clinging on to power than it is about reality. But I think there are serious questions about implementing something like this because we have to remember that the NHS has never been in worse condition. We've had successive governments that have underfunded our service, have fragmented it so that it is not coherent and at the same time social policy means that the British population is unhealthier than ever before. So what do you think it must be like for someone like me who's trying to meet that intense demand that comes from being a sick society in a system where I'm being asked to do more with less. So I mean can this work if

it were instituted? I think some people might find it's difficult enough to find their primary consultant without being able to find a second one to get a second opinion in certain situations in certain hospitals. Look I will tell you that under current conditions, trying to be a good doctor is really hard and it's really stressful. But in this context, having additional tools to be able to do the right thing are always helpful for both patients and for professionals. What we're talking about here is a pathway to escalate care. And remember, this pathway is not just for patients. It's also for junior members of staff who might also not feel empowered to be able to speak up. And under, as we've talked about, the significant systemic constraints of lack of time, lack of resources and lack of staff, this is a quick and angle to this story. Merope was saying she was a mother, as we know, and that she wasn't listened to. That came up again and again. She wasn't listened to. Do you think there's a

gendered angle on that? I mean, the short answer is yes. And the long answer is intersectionality, we know that there are gender dynamics at play in medicine. And I can say this as a woman in medicine. Women doctors get paid less than their male counterparts. We occupy fewer positions of leadership in the NHS. But more importantly, patients. We know that women live less healthy lives than men, that their accounts about pain are less likely to be believed. And as a result, they receive worse quality care. Now, Merope Mills may well have experienced problems in being heard by virtue of being a woman. But I just want you to pause for a minute and think how much worse would

it have been if intersectionality were at play, and race and class had also countered against her. And the crux of all of this, the reason that I am so passionate about this issue is that the problem for me is that until medicine starts paying attention to its own culture, it is only going to make health inequalities worse. Very good to have you with us. Thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning, Dr. Gudi Singh, as we continue to speak about patient safety. Thank you for your messages coming in about your grannies. Holly says, I always wanted to write my grandma's story. She was born in Spain and came over to England aged seven, escaping the beginning of the Spanish Civil story. She was born in Spain and came over to England aged seven, escaping the beginning of the Spanish Civil War.

She has stories of Spain and the trip over. Her father died before joining them and her mother worked as a cook. Because I'm asking for your stories. Millie Bobby Brown's going to be here talking about her grandmother and the book she's written in relation to it. Keep them coming, 84844.

Now, three quarters of police officers and staff accused of violence against women have not been suspended by their force despite the allegations against them. That is according to a joint investigation by the Independent newspaper and the domestic abuse charity Refuge.

It also found that just 24% of police investigated for domestic abuse, sexual assault, rape and abusive position were suspended across England and Wales in the year 2 May 2023. Joined by Ellie Butt, Head of Policy at Refuge. Good to have you with us, Ellie. So give us a bit more detail on exactly what you found. Good morning. So we submitted Freedom of Information requests to every police force in England and Wales.

26 of them got back to us with data. We asked them how many officers and staff have been accused of misconduct relating to violence against women and girls. So that might be domestic abuse, rape, sexual assault, abusing power for sexual gain. And of those people, how many have been suspended while you're investigating whether that misconduct was perpetrated? We found a huge variety in terms of what forces are doing. The best forces are suspending over 80 percent of officers accused of this type of misconduct. But the worst are suspending around 10%. And overall, from the data we've got, only 24% of officers and staff were suspended

while facing this type of misconduct about violence against women and girls. So a disparity there in how the forces respond. With the Met Police, you found? The Met Police was particularly poor, one of the lowest. Only 12% of officers accused of violence against women and girls related misconduct were suspended while they were investigated. I think it's also important with the Met to understand that they have by far the largest number of cases. So of the around 1,200 cases that were covered in the data we received, the Met had over 650 of them. So it's a huge part of the problem. And even though David Carrick and Wayne Cousins were working for the Met and the Louise Casey review earlier this year exposed the huge problems

the Met has with institutional misogyny and not taking violence against women and girls as seriously as it needs to, the vast majority of their officers are continuing to work, even when accused of really serious violence against women and girls related misconduct. And I will come to a response from the Met in just a moment. But you also did outline the Surrey police force. And I will say we got in touch with them and they said that they don't recognise the figures that were given in the article this morning. They dispute them and they say they record

four cases of misconduct of officers and staff relating to violence against women and girls. Of those, two were given a final written warning and one was given a written warning, so not a final one. The other was dismissed without notice all reports of crimes related to violence against women and girls are taken extremely seriously they say particularly those involving perpetrators who are police officers or police staff when reports of this nature are received we investigate thoroughly and where

appropriate issue perpetrators through the criminal justice system and through the misconduct regime to ensure they're dealt with robustly. What would you respond to that instead with your findings? I'm more than happy to talk to Surrey Police about their figures. We're publishing the figures that they gave us and we asked for the data between May 2022 and May 2023 and we're publishing all the data we received like I said 40 uh 26 out of the 43 forces responded to us and we've published the data they gave us with with no edits but more than happy to look into that and get in touch with Surrey Police but I think the thing we're calling for today which which would stop this being an issue is for mandatory suspension when an officer or member of police staff is accused of domestic abuse or sexual assault or other violence against women

and girls related misconduct. I think that's really important for two reasons. One for the individual case. We work with survivors whose perpetrators are police officers and some of them have spoken to the independent newspaper today who have talked about the investigations into the misconduct that they have raised and that when police officers aren't suspended they have huge amounts of power in terms of still working with the colleagues that are looking into this case. One survivor Holly talked about the fact that her perpetrator always seemed to be aware of information he shouldn't be. He managed to destroy phones that were going to be looked at before

they'd been looked at, that she felt there was this huge power imbalance that would have been much better had he been suspended. So there's also something about when the officers are being suspended, can they interfere with the investigation? But there's also a broader point about confidence in policing. We know that women's confidence in policing and in the Met in particular are at rock bottom levels. I don't think it's a huge amount to ask that if you're calling the police because you've been abused by your partner, which police officers receive a call about domestic abuse alone approximately every 30 seconds, you can be confident at least that that police officer that responds to you isn't themselves being investigated for similar types of offences and misconduct at the very same time. So it's hugely important that we see mandatory suspension for

these types of cases. Some forces are managing to do it already. It's not about the power. It seems to be about the will. Lots of forces simply aren't responding as seriously as they need to. I just want to read in response, actually, as you talk about it, the Metropolitan Police who have responded,

they sent us this statement. We recognise identifying and bringing to justice those in the Met who corrupt our integrity by committing abuses against women and girls is vital in rebuilding the trust of our communities and increasing reporting. We've taken important steps with this. We have the Domestic Abuse and Sexual Offences Unit staffed by experienced officers with a background in investigating domestic abuse and sexual violence, who are now using those skills to investigate allegations made against serving officers and staff and a focus on victim-survivor care. We have a new anti-corruption and abuse command with detectives who are bringing the same investigative approach to identifying wrongdoing

in our ranks and we do to identifying organised criminality. We also launched the first ever public appeal line, the Crime Stoppers Police Integrity Hotline, to make it easier for the public to report officers of concern, an initiative now planned for rollout nationally. We recognise there's far more work to be done effectively to tackle all types of violence against women and girls and to gain trust.

But what about those initiatives, Ellie? Aren't they a step in the right direction? They are a step in the right direction. I think we need to see more ambitious aims and a much quicker progress. Last week, the Home Secretary announced that she'd bring forward new laws so that all police forces found guilty of gross misconduct would be sacked. You know, that's welcome, but it's also what would happen

in pretty much any other organisation across the country. I'm sure it would happen to you or I if we were found guilty of gross misconduct. We want her to add to that law to look at what happens before that point while the investigation is ongoing. We think it's hugely important that all police officers and staff in the police are suspended while these really serious allegations are happening. understand it if you have an answer of why they are not suspended? Because this is not the first time, obviously, that this issue has been raised. Every time there has been a scandal around a police force in the country, there has been that question raised. It's a really good question. I think that the huge variety in the figures that came back shows that this is possible. It's not that police can't do this. You know, in North Wales, in Wiltshire, 83% of officers were suspended. It's very much within their gift. And the question is why they're not doing it. That could be will, there could be some issues with

oversight and leadership. Maybe there are some issues around process. We're more than happy to work with police forces to improve this. But I think this time for excuses has run out. We're more than happy to work with police forces to improve this, but I think this time for excuses has run out. We all know the problems. They were laid bare in the Casey report earlier this year. It's really time for action. We think forces have been far too slow to do this themselves. So now we're calling on the Home Secretary to make it mandatory that police officers accused of domestic abuse, sexual assault, serious misconduct relating to violence against women and girls are suspended while that investigation is carried out. May I ask for a force that you found was doing things in the way you would like others to follow?

North Wales Police and Wiltshire Police both suspended 83% of officers accused of misconduct. So that's not 100%, but it's clearly much better than the 10-11% we're seeing in other places. So forces can learn from each other. We're really keen to hear from those forces about their best practice. This isn't about just naming and shaming police officers. We want to see a change for survivors of police perpetrators and to improve confidence in policing for women across the country, for everyone across the country. We need police to be far better at responding to violence against women and girls. And that does start with their very own colleagues. You know, what does it say to people considering phoning the police about domestic abuse or sexual assault if they're not even taking it seriously

when it's happening in their very own force or potentially happening in their very own force? And just to return to Surrey Police to give those figures, which I don't think I gave at the time, is they only suspended 10% according to your article, but they instead disputed those figures, as I mentioned,

talking about four cases of misconduct instead. Do you think this will make a difference? I hope so. The reaction so far, I'm just wondering whether it's something that might actually, I don't know, bring a change or perhaps speed up the process, which I think it is that you're looking for. We're very hopeful that it will. We've had some really positive responses today.

Louise Casey, the author of the Casey Review, has back calls. I'm former Chief Constable, so this is a really important step forward as well. We know there'll be new legislation and we'll be working alongside others in the domestic abuse sector to secure this change. Because we really think that this year

with the Carrick case, the Casey review, this has to be a watershed moment where things get better. And we think this is a part of the puzzle that would improve the response to violence against women and girls. Ellie Butt, Head of Policy at Refuge. Thank you so much for joining us.

Lots of you getting in touch about your grandmothers, which has quite a lot to do with my next guest. Let me read another one here. Let me see. Claire says, My grandmother, KJ Martin, was born in London in 1916. She lost her father in World War I, was married and had two children

during World War II. She worked at the Royal Aeronautical Society for over 40 years. She divorced my grandfather Royal Aeronautical Society for over 40 years. She divorced my grandfather in the 1950s and must have faced fierce social opinion being a single parent. She could sing soprano but was stopped from going to Italy to sing. She was girl power before it was a term. She was a gorgeous, elegant lady and was a marvellous grandmother and is badly missed. Thanks Clare for that. 84844. Why am I talking about grandmothers this morning? Because my next guest, who's going to tell me about hers,

Millie Bobby Brown. She's not a grandmother. She has achieved incredible things by the age of 19. She first came into our homes as 11, of course, in the Netflix series Stranger Things. Since then, she starred in and produced Enola Holmes,

two films about Sherlock Holmes' younger sister. She was the youngest person ever to appear on Time's list of 100 most influential people in 2018 and was also the youngest person to be appointed a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador. And she has also launched her very own cosmetics brand, Florence by Mills. And now, as if all that isn't enough,

she's the author of 19 Steps, set in the middle of the Second World War in Bethnal Green in the east end of London. And it follows the life of young Nellie Morris. It's tragedy, heartbreak, love, joy, hope, all with that background of World War II. Millie, welcome to studio. Hi, thank you so much for having me. So lovely to have you here. You know, people, I just asked for their stories about their grandmothers, whether it would make a good book and they're coming in in their droves.

So your book came about because of your grandmother. Tell me about her. Oh gosh. So my grandmother on my maternal side, this is kind of where the book was really inspired by I mean my grandmother lived she was born on Morpeth Street in Bethnal Green so that is the street where Nellie lives okay so that's uh it's not all made up I mean these are you know like yes it's a fiction and yes we pull from like you know we want to give everyone a little bit of a twisty and turny kind of storyline but these stories I mean they're all uh they've all

originated from somewhere so yeah all of these names and places and kind of um the yeah they're all somewhere that my grandmother was associated with so she grew up in Bethnal Green um had my my mum there and uh and then kind of I was raised spent spent lots of summers there and really was with her a lot of my childhood. So by choice, because she was amazing. I mean, I love my parents, but they are not as interesting as her. Her name is Ruth. Ruth. Yeah. So. So, yes.

So she. So Nanny Ruth, because when I was younger, I couldn't say her name. It would have been Nanny Woof. And I had her up until I was younger, I couldn't say her name. It would have been Nanny Woof. And I had her up until I was 16. And then I lost her to Alzheimer's. And so right before she passed away, I really wanted to capture all of these stories that she told me as a child. And I recorded her.

And as we kind of went back onto those audio recordings, we thought that there would be able, that there would be space for a narrative about her life. How wonderful. I mean, I think I loved reading about it because knowing some of the places in London as well, but really not knowing a lot of the history that you uncover and thinking about very small details about their lives and the way that they lived,

but then with some huge events that are happening, of course, World War II, but also the Bethnal Green Tube disaster. Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, it's actually really interesting that you say that. It's like there were so many huge events that were happening around her,

except when you zoom in on this small community in Bethnal Green, there was so much love and friendship. And I think that is what the book is about. And, you know, that's what I got from the stories that my grandmother told it was, yes, there were these horrible things happening around her. But ultimately, she found so many wonderful women, I mean, you know, that she bonded with throughout this time. And I think that is also a really huge leading theme within the within the the book

um and so I I you know just yeah I I think the the places yeah of course London is filled with history but you don't think Bethnal Green I mean when I walked through it you know even yesterday I walked through it I thought gosh there is so much history and I think we just overlook that because we you know we just add we attach word history, but really when you know the stories and what happened. And so the Bethnal Green tube disaster happened when my grandmother was around four or five. She lost her best friend and her best friend's whole family died in it. And basically what happened was the Bethnal Green tube station is where they would seek shelter from the German bombers. And when the air raid siren would go off, they would go down. They spent Christmas down there. My nan's birthday was spent down there.

And it was a safe place for the community to go. And so one night, there was a faulty sound that scared one person running down there. and the rest followed and the steps were not safe there wasn't a railing there wasn't a bright enough light and a woman fell at the bottom and everyone fell behind her and way too many people were lost most of them being children and 173 men women and children yeah called the largest civilian tragedy of the war yeah not not due to the war yes exactly that was what is so you know heartbreaking and no one knows about it except when you walk around Bethnal Green everybody knows about it all of my friends all of my grandmother's friends knew about it and it's

something that's a huge part of their childhood I just feel like that can't just be washed away. You know, this is something that's really important to them. I started looking at I think they only have a memorial since 2006. So not that long at all. And also looking at some of the photographs from before that time, like you talk about the Christmases and people sitting, having sandwiches and really had that community and living there before this terrible tragedy that occurred.

With your grandmother then, was it a regular thing that she'd tell you stories about the war? Yes. I mean, my nan, especially when she had gotten diagnosed with Alzheimer's, she wrote, she forgot what she had for dinner the night before, but she remembered the dinner that she

had on her fifth birthday. You know, it was just things like that, that was so bizarre. So whatever I really, you know, especially because I studied, you know, and still study Alzheimer's, and I really wanted to hone in on those stories to make her feel safe and to make her feel heard. And so I she told me all of these stories. So from, you know, being very young, five, six years old, but now, you know, up until I was 16, she was telling me these stories. Some of them I had heard a hundred times over. Some of them I'd heard, you know, here for the first time. And I, Nan, you've never told me that.

Oh, well, yeah, I never thought you'd care. And I'm like, Nan, of course I care. No, you hate me. I'm like, Nan, no, you know, so, you know, everybody, everybody listened to these stories, but specifically me because I was with her so much and, and I, you know, I have an artistic mind. And so those stories are something that I kind of, I saw in my head. There are a few reviews of the book out already and it's been called A Tale of Female Resilience. How important was that to show it through the eyes of a young woman? I mean, how could you not? You know, this is my grandmother's story. And if it's not, it's my grandmother's friend's story.

It's my grandmother's, you know, it's her mother's story, you know. And I think the womanhood during that time, they found so much camaraderie within each other. And I think that that is something I really wanted to play a leading theme within the book. You know, my nan would tell me these stories and I would think, well, how did you, you know, you're also very hormonal during that time. How did you deal with that? You know, because now I get my period.

I need a week off. I'm like, nan, you were running around going, yeah, how did you do that? And that is something, that strength, that power and passion and love for your family for your friends for your community it's something that um we have lost you know but you are bringing them to life and I know you also recorded the audiobook for the novel um how did it feel to voice the words because you're kind of bringing your grandmother back

to life with her stories I think actually losing her was probably one of the hardest things I'd ever gone through. And so I don't know if I necessarily healed from that fully. And so doing the audio book, I was a bit scared of talking it because I had read it privately so much to myself over and over and then reading it and talking it and kind of mimicking her voice as well. I liked your little impersonation of her there. That, you know, you do, I see it. And so I lit a candle, put her picture in front of me,

and it was a very emotional kind of few weeks of just rehashing all of those stories and also tonally getting how she would tell the story to me because she had told them so many times I really wanted which would be like because we haven't heard the audiobook yet how would that be I mean it was just the way she would tell a story and then that pause and then the joke would come and you know certain things like the timing of things were just so good and like I would be sat there you know in bed not being able to sleep and she would tell me half of the story and go right I'll save the rest until tomorrow it's like no no no and that's how I wanted the chapter to end you know like I need to

read the next one you know because that was just how it would feel so this sounds to me like your grandmother was a born performer oh I mean she would say absolutely not. But I think if she was here right now, she would be sat next to me making it about her. I think that she was very shy. But when she got to telling those stories, she really did kind of come to life. Your story and telling it off your grandmother has sparked our listeners imagination as well. Shall we listen to a few that have come in talking about their grandmothers and the stories that could make a good book? Here's Paula. She says my amazing grandmother Kitty lived in Hackney and was PA to the chief engineer at the British Racing Motors in the 40s and 50s. She travelled around Europe during this glamorous period of Formula One with Peter Berthon.

Another one. My grandmother ran away from an arranged marriage on her honeymoon in Paris and eloped with my grandfather to Italy, later coming to the UK. She went on to teach English and French in Cambridge Uni as a gentlewoman of reduced circumstance that's what she was called, and travelled alone to West Africa in the 1950s. Wow. Another one. Hi, my mum

Freda Cotton worked throughout the war as a private secretary to Sir William Roots, who was chairman of the automobile manufacturer Roots Group, that during the war stopped producing cars and made aero engines and aircraft for the war effort. So something in common with Roots there, really with the job of the mayor that she had. She worked at Devonshire House in London

throughout the Blitz and took minutes in meetings with Churchill. Nellie used to take minutes in meetings in your book as well. She also had quite a few tales about the serial harassment in those days and how she dealt with Churchill. Nellie used to take minutes in meetings in your book as well. She also had quite a few tales about the serial harassment in those days and how she dealt with it. There were some fantastic characters

she told amazing stories about, including a work colleague who went on to be an archaeologist in Egypt. It is a book worth writing for sure. After two RAF boyfriends of hers were killed, she married my dad

who had his own colourful life, making his fortune in the Indian Raj having left Newcastle at 19. Heather got in touch with that story. Wow, that is crazy. There's so many

that are coming in and you know it's making me think Millie we've probably a lot of stories that have been forgotten. I know, I know. I do think this, a huge passion of mine, had I have not, you know, maybe taken the route that I had taken, would have been to

work in a care home because I absolutely just, I love the history that, you know, older people, they hold and the stories that they do tell even if they are completely made up which sometimes they are and yeah but but i think that this you know i hope um after reading you you go and talk to that grandparent or you go and talk to your parents and you ask them what do they know about their history but but learning about your family history. But also if not, and you, you know, have lost any, you know, maybe volunteering at a care home and just being able to sit there and talk to someone and just being present with them and hearing them.

It's such a nice idea, Millie, because it's so easy. You don't have to be a radio person to be able to record things now, the way we have smartphones and whatnot. And to get some some I do think that to get some of those stories down when we still have that connection with people from another generation a few more

Claire says my grandmother KJ Martin was born in London in 1916 she lost her father in World War I and was married and had two

oh no we talked about that one right the single parent sorry she could sing soprano I remember her sorry Claire had yours already? Here's another. My granny was called Mary Louise Hunt. She was a beautiful woman who was a Vogue

model in the 1940s. Then she became an accomplished ice hockey player on the First Ladies ice hockey team and was also a swimmer of some repute. She used to swim between the piers at Brighton and she was also an accomplished ballet dancer. She even mixed in the same circles as the socialite

Lily Langtry. What a woman. I love these stories. 84844 if you want to get in touch. So many of you and a lot of these

their grandmothers as I see are born you know in the early 1900s and true. So I know you're going to be talking about Ruth and about Nellie

and these stories over the next few weeks. But are you inspired to write more? I think in whatever capacity that is, I've always loved writing and I've always loved creating. You know, I was I'm very creative in that way um you know maybe overly um so my nan had to you know hang up all of my strange things that I had made um and so you know I I think whatever I do next um I will always base it off of very strong women and authentic stories that mean a lot to me and I think that's only incentivized me to keep creating things that I'm really passionate about.

Everybody I spoke to when I said I was speaking to Millie Bommer, oh, I love her. You're a role model to so many girls and women around the world. Perhaps when they're looking at you and you see you've been successful in so many areas in this, of course, your latest venture, what would be your piece of advice to them who are trying to find their way, figure out their way in the world? I think first and foremost, I'm also looking, you know, for my way of the world as well. I don't really know it yet. The world is ever changing. And, you know, I'm in a place now where there is a space for women to flourish.

But there are still things that, you know, we need to work on. And I think find your dream and find what you care about. And, you know, there will be hurdles. But find the women that you can find camaraderie in that with. You know, that's something that I think that I care about. There's a lot of other female entrepreneurs or authors and, you know, that I find that connection with and feel inspired. So I think women inspire women. And that's something that I would probably go with in regards to committing and achieving your dreams.

Millie Bobby Brown, thank you so much for coming into Women's Hour. The author of 19 Steps. Now, I want to turn to a quick reminder of our discussion last week about the idea of having a minister for men. It was suggested by the Conservative MP Nick Fletcher, who is championing for someone to advocate for minister for men. It was suggested by the Conservative MP, Nick Fletcher, who is championing for someone to advocate for boys and men. It's had so much interest from you, from others. The conversation continues. This was one of our callers to our phone-in.

My brother is an extremely educated man. He's an engineer. He's always been extremely loving. He's always been a valuable member of our family. And over probably the last probably about two years I've seen bizarre views that's come from him extreme misogynistic views and he's you know said to me that Andrew Tate is king Andrew Tate is giving him the guidance that he needs to be successful It seems to be like very extreme views

about females not working, females need to be at the home. And where did that come from, Laura? I mean, it's your brother. I mean, was he always like that or was it, do you feel? No, we had, you know, parallel upbringings. He was never, never of that view.

I feel personally that it's from YouTube Reels that he's watching. I try not to... I've had another approach with him now where I try to engage with it and say, you know, well, where did you get that bit of information from? And it's mainly from YouTube.

It's from YouTube Reels that Andrew Tate does. Does he understand your fears for him? He feels that I'm part of the problem, that me saying that Andrew Tate maybe isn't the best person to give you your life guidance. He thinks that

I would be saying that because I'm female. Well, you can still get involved. We continue this conversation. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. If you'd like to add your voice when we're talking about a minister for men,

it's not the end of it yet. Thank you for all your messages coming in on your grandmothers. Here's another. My grandmother was born in London in 1908. She kept diaries in which I never peeked, but she lived through two world wars and raised children and a whole 24 grandchildren.

Before her death, my uncle secretly persuaded her to donate her diaries and snuck them all over several journeys to a museum the only way for me to read them is to go to London

and request a viewing I feel robbed of my heritage wow interesting woman to have as your grandmother I have to say another interesting person in front of me

you might know my next guest from this how beautiful it is Mercury Prize winning musician Arlo Parks, who has turned her hand to poetry. I mean, she's been writing poetry for a while, but she's decided to share it with us. Her debut book, The Magic Border, combining original poetry, song lyrics, photography, and it's with me in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. So good to have you with us. Why have you decided to share your poetry now? You know, I think it took a lot of courage to get to the place where I could share it. For me, it was always this very kind of private, personal practice that I had and have had since I was a

teenager. And I think honestly, it came from witnessing how my music was kind of stretching beyond me and the fact that at some point I was terrified of even claiming myself to be a musician. But seeing how the music was stretching and helping people and I just had that urge to do the same with my poems. You mentioned you were introduced to it as a teenager. Do you remember that introduction? Yeah, I do remember. I remember writing a lot of short stories as a kid. And my teacher pointed out the fact that I was always very drawn to imagery. And I didn't really have that much interest in plot. I just wanted to kind of create these beautiful images. And she said, actually, you might like poetry.

And so I started kind of delving into like the beat poets and Sylvia Plath and just became so enamored with it as a form. And I felt as well when I wrote poetry that it really helped me to kind of unknot a lot of things that were complicated. And I was a very emotional child. So it became this place where I could be completely myself and kind of work through things that were difficult. Why is it called The Magic Border? So there's this book called Exteriors by Annie Arnaud who's a French writer that I love and she essentially talks about how the outside world so things that she sees on the street that move her or that make her feel angry or that bring up memories really inform her understanding of her

internal world and I liked the idea of having this imaginary border between the outside world and the inside world and how things kind of filter in and out. And that really kind of encapsulated the ethos of the book. Yeah, well, it's very beautiful. You do say in your statement at the beginning of the book that it's taken your whole life to share this poetry, as we've talked

about I'm just wondering what was there a particular moment that you were like I'm ready or was there something that happened that you're like okay let's do this honestly I don't know I feel like I just move very like intuitively and and impulsively at times I think I just had this collection that I felt really proud of um And I'd always had this urge to write a book. It's something that I wanted to do before I even wanted to make music. And there was just this moment where I was on the road and I was like, okay, actually, I think I've created something that might help people and better the world if I shared it.

And yeah, the courage just came like that. And I decided and never looked back um with creating the book is it different to performing live for example is the mental load different yeah it is very different I think even just you know the way that one reads a book is very much kind of personal and private and quiet versus you know music has this culture of concerts and festivals and gigs and is very much this exchange um but I love it you know I did my reading at the South Bank yesterday which was really fun um and it just yeah it definitely like flexes a different muscle but it definitely feels connected the two feel connected by just sensitivity um and the

people who come always always so sweet. You know, I saw you, you didn't see me, but I saw you in Somerset House last year and you were performing and it was so beautiful. There was all these young women that were there that were waving sunflowers, you know, which is, I suppose, signifies resilience and endurance and hope and it I don't know I really took that away when I left just such a role model that you are for those young women well thank you yeah I think that it's interesting to create art and maybe also you know from a place of me being black and being queer and being young and creating music that is you know in the indie alternative space and having women reaching out to me and saying actually you inspired me to be completely myself and what you're creating you know they can tell that it comes from a place of heart and you know

people showing me their poetry when I meet them and saying oh actually you inspired me to put my thoughts down or start writing songs or making clothes or whatever it might be and kind of empowering women in this way that you know I never really set out to be a role model I just kind of made things that felt good to me it must I was when I was watching you I was like there must be a force of love though coming towards you when you're on stage definitely and it's something that I try to kind of send back as well. It's very, oh, thank you. You did.

Very, very, very much so. The book also, to describe to people, it has poetry. It also has some of your songs from My Soft Machine, your sophomore album, as we're calling it. It also has photography. It's kind of like a snapshot, I feel, into your life. Yeah, it is very much a time capsule, I think, of all the things that were moving me during those 18 months.

And Daniel Lowden, who's my collaborator, is one of my best friends in the world. And so to be able to kind of piece together this work and kind of bond poetry and photography and finding images that felt kind of like spiritual twins almost of the poetry um yeah it just felt yeah I'm just happy I'm proud of it yeah it felt also to me I'm older than you that I was also um kind of peering into your young life I could feel it was your friends kind of hanging out the way you're doing the

emotions you're having the feelings you're going through actually why don't we get you to read yeah a little why don't we do this and tell our listeners what it is yeah so this is a poem called happy queer film it has been 24 years and we have finally found heaven. Magnesium powder for the golden rods, foraged blackberries and pine marmalade, your eyes splintering against moss. We make out like teenagers in the rainstorm, come in wet, dark and glowing. I pull my sweater over my head, get my records out. You are designing wings, it's your fourth set of sketches we do not speak to your grandmother anymore but she has been forgiven we have many friends we pickle vegetables for each other show love with a simple consistency the films we watched always made us feel like we couldn't have

this a joyful ending an ending where nobody's dead. And despite everything, here we are, pressing Astor's into a book for our kid. For our kid. How important is friendship when it comes to this book? I mean, it's everything. You know, so many of these poems are letters to people that I love in my life. And I think that I was asked about this yesterday, actually, and no, no poem of mine is just about me as an individual. It's always about how the people around me have moved me, paying homage to friendship, paying homage to love. And it, you know, it being made with a friend as well,

it just feels like it's about community. It's cool, really. Yeah, yeah, that very much comes across. And how different is it, writing poetry to writing lyrics for your music? It does feel very different. How? I think that with a song, you really have to distill a feeling to its essence because you have that structure of a verse, a pre-chorus and a chorus. You have to be very economical with your language

and kind of try and put across a feeling that might be very vast and complicated into, you know, three minutes worth of music. But I think with poetry, especially because I've never really been interested in traditional form, I feel like I have more space to be more fluid and kind of explore different facets of the whole. So it feels a little bit more free to me. And with the poem you've just read that was two who was that two yeah i mean i honestly think that that poem was just two queer people in the world and wanting to create a piece of art that was kind of celebrating joy and celebrating domesticity and companionship and kind of providing the hope for like a happy ending.

It is a lot of beauty in the domesticity, I think, throughout your book. Yeah, and it's something that I create. Are you a homebird? Yes. Doesn't it? Can't you tell? Well, I don't know. Last time I was watching you, you know, mesmerizing hundreds of people on stage or thousands probably. Yeah, I'm very much a homebody

yeah I think especially you know me traveling so much and constantly being um moving and uprooted I definitely get so much joy out of just like simply being at home and like cooking a meal you know putting asters in the book um you are on tour with your second album my soft machine and my soft machine what does that refer to? I was wondering, is it a William Burroughs book? Is it the jazz band? Yeah, there are many different interpretations. Yeah, exactly.

But it's actually from this film called The Souvenir, the Joanna Hogg film from A24. And for me, it's this sense of, you know, art being filtered through the body the soft machine is the body and the soul and the fact that this poem sorry this poem I'm used to poetry now this album is very much through um it's the world through my eyes filtered through my lens filtered through my body what about the word and I thought this reading your poetry last night and listening to your music, soft. It's like, it's not just soft.

It's also soft could be tender, right? Exactly. I feel that. And even you talk about bruises and bruisless. And I just felt that real sensation of the skin. Talk to me why you say soft. Yeah, I think it's exactly that. I think it's, you know, treading through the world softly and being a person who allows themselves to be moved by things in the world and who moves through it with a sense of wonder and being in touch with

the inner child and the fact that there is this softness and this sense of awe and tenderness as well. But it can be hard to remain soft. It can be. And I think that especially the world can be quite a hard place. But I do think that real deep connections with other human beings comes from being soft and allowing yourself to be affected by others and their love. I mentioned you were a Mercury Prize winner. I think our listeners know that, but you've probably seen the jazz group Ezra Collection that they won the first ever jazz album to win. It made me so happy.

It made me so happy to see the joy in their faces as well and the fact that they met at a youth club and the fact that there was this real sense of camaraderie between them. And I think especially jazz music kind of receiving its dues in terms of how much it's affected so many other genres and yeah I was so pleased. So I've been listening to you and Ezra Collective all weekend which is really beautiful but in their acceptance speech you know they said at this moment that we're celebrating right here is testament to good, special people putting time and effort into young people to play music. You started yourself at a young age and you were sending off songs to BBC introducing.

I was indeed. Yeah, I dug up some of those old emails recently from 16 year old me trying to get the attention of BBC introducing. But yeah, I was very much like nurtured by them and I think that a lot of kind of what got me to this point actually was you know having people giving me a chance and listening to me and kind of nurturing that budding spirit that I had I think everyone could tell that music was something that I loved and was part of my core and I think the support that I got early on was what kind of gave me the strength to keep going and the people that I met along the way as well. That you honour in this book.

Arla Park, such a pleasure to have you in. And The Magic Border is out this Thursday, the 14th of September. My soft machine is there already, which you can listen to, which is also beautiful. Thanks so much for coming into Women's Hour. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Now, lots of you getting in touch.

Still about your grandmother. There's so many. My amazing granny is 90 today. Happy birthday, granny. She's completely wonderful. And I feel so lucky to be so close to her. She inspires me in so many ways and is my rock. She's a lifelong cyclist.

Her garden is beautiful. We have lovely family celebrations there. And she met my great, her great grandson, Jude. She makes the most beautiful patchwork quilts and I've loved the many days we spent together. Thanks, Catherine, for getting in touch. Do join me again tomorrow when I will be speaking to director Charlotte Regan

about her feature debut, Scrapper. I'll talk to you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What if I told you that death may not be inevitable? Is it possible that a fundamental of existence that we've always had as a species, that we will all inevitably die,

is that still true? And that there are technologists promising everlasting life. We can and should use technology to enhance and expand and augment human capacities. Who's behind the modern movement for immortality? Where else do you find the promise of living longer or forever? It's just like religion and Silicon Valley. I'm Alex Kretosky. Find out on Intrigue the Immortals from BBC Radio 4.

Listen on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.