Woman's Hour - Mina Smallman

Episode Date: February 15, 2022

Mina Smallman whose daughters were killed in a London park gives her reaction to the latest revelations from the Metropolitan police. Vladimir Putin could launch an invasion of Ukraine "almost immediately", the UK believes as diplomatic efforts continued to avert a war in eastern Europe. Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned on Monday an invasion could take place within 48 hours as he urged Russia's president to step back from the "edge of a precipice". We hear from two women on the ground in Ukraine.We have health & safety officers, diversity officers, and even wellness officers in the workplace. Do we need one for family planning as well? We speak to lawyer Natalie Sutherland, who has just become Britain’s first Fertility Officer, and, Becky Kearns, Co-founder of ‘Fertility Matters at Work’ to find out why more companies should consider appointing one.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Shortly you'll hear from two women in Ukraine as we hear that some of Russia's troops positioned on the border with Ukraine are returning to their bases, raising hopes of de-escalation and a diplomatic solution. So we will be hearing from those two women to get a sense of their lives, raising hopes of de-escalation and a diplomatic solution. So we will be hearing from those two women to get a sense of their lives, the women around them, and the mindset on the ground. All that to come. But I do want to ask you this today.

If you wanted or want children, would you have ever told your boss you were trying to get pregnant as you were trying? Especially if perhaps that road started to become more complicated, protracted, perhaps if you experienced loss or needed fertility treatment. I'm asking as Britain's first fertility officer has been appointed in a law firm, and I'll be talking to her shortly, and she'll be explaining her role and why she thinks this should be something rolled out across companies around the world, perhaps. But what do you make of this? It's all very well having that position, but would you actually tell someone where you work?

And I recognise you could work in a much smaller business. You might not be working. You might not want children. I shall also stress that again. Or you may not be able to. But if you are in this particular position or have been in this position, you may also, of course, work for yourself

or work for your other half. So they probably do know what's going on in that department. But could you imagine yourself talking like that about trying for a baby how realistic is having a fertility officer in terms of how it would work with you with those that you know with your friends with your family with your colleagues in terms of those conversations that may or may not happen there's all sorts of reasons you may not actually want to talk about it, of course, that aren't just about the fact that you worry, the main one being often cited, that it will impact your career.

You may feel it's incredibly private and you don't wish to talk about it. Or you may be thinking, actually, this would have been or would be right now incredibly useful. Do let me know. We have the first fertility officer being appointed in a company in the UK, as we understand it. There may be others, you tell me, but that's how it's being billed. I'll be talking to her shortly and I'd very much like to hear your take on this. You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844 or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour with those texts. Remember,

they'll be charged your standard message rate or email me through the Woman's Hour website. But first, as the negotiations continue about when Dame Cressida Dick, the outgoing Metropolitan Commissioner, will step down, having resigned on Friday after a slew of damning reports and revelations about that police force, how does one of the key women who called for her to go feel now? Mina Smallman is a former Archdeacon and the mother of the murdered sisters Beba Henry and Nicole Smallman. They were stabbed to death in a park in Wembley in 2020, having been enjoying birthday celebrations. Two Met Police constables were sent to guard the scene where the sisters' bodies were found and instead they left their posts to take photos of the women and send mocking

messages about where they were and what was going on on WhatsApp groups. They pleaded guilty to misconduct in public office, were sacked and then were jailed for 33 months in December. Mina Smallman, good morning. Thank you so much for joining me again here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You did call for Cressida Dick to go at the end of last year. Why did you feel she had to go? I don't know if people will remember. In the beginning, I said I didn't think that that was the answer for Cressida to go because it just delays progress.

But of course, as the story progressed we had um sarah everard's murder we had you know another police officer took pictures at that scene um then we had the outcome of the report on the missing persons. And gradually, I just began to see and understand that, you know, she was completely ineffectual. As a woman, I don't want to focus on her in that way. It's the job. It could have been a man, but it happened to be a woman. And there's lots to celebrate about her career but she failed in in the key elements of women's safety uh race issues

homophobia um you name it it's rife um and and not just in the met. So in the end, I think her position became untenable completely. And what is your response to her going? How did you feel when you heard that news? I thought, good, it's a good decision. I think it wasn't handled as, it wasn't handled well, let's put it that way. But she dug her heels in and said, you know, she took on another two years. So, and I think in the end, she was, most people saw her as ineffectual. When you were mentioning just there the missing persons report, that was referring to your case and what had gone on with that. It was a look at that by the watchdog, the police watchdog. And you were talking about the fact that it wasn't filed for your daughters on time

and there were errors there, just in case people were not aware. Yeah, awful errors. And, you know, that investigation, I don't think, was concluded in the best of ways. She hadn't apologised. She said she had apologised, but she actually hadn't. But the crux for me was finding out, you know, the more recent report that began in 2017 about Charing Cross. Yes, just to remind our listeners again, because we did cover this, it was out just two weeks ago from the Independent Office for Police Officers, Police Conduct, excuse me, found officers in the Charing Cross police station, some of them to have joked about rape and exchanged racist and highly abusive messages. And that led to some recommendations from the police watchdog. But in its report, the IOPC said, we believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few

bad apples. And I did think of you that day when that came out. And I wonder what those moments are like for you. You know, I'm pleased that people thought I was being overly emotional and criticising the police on an isolated incident but my instincts told me that that just wasn't wasn't the case now if you remember the photographs of our girls were taken in 2020 and Cressida Dick was on record and said, if this is true, it's appalling, blah, blah. She knew, she already knew that there was an investigation going on, we didn't know, started in 2017 about WhatsApp groups.

So she would have known that this wasn't an isolated incident. I didn't expect her to kind of throw herself or the Met under the bus, but to behave in a way that sounds as though this is incredible. We've never heard of anything like this in our lives. It was a lie. And so it took the IOPC five years to discover what myself and my family knew to be the truth in six months. And this, this, they hide behind these investigations. So Cressida, I wanted to meet with Cressida. She came here. We met with her.

And any question I asked her about the photographs, the, you know, the murder, the crime scene, I can't discuss that with you because it's under investigation. Same conversation about the missing persons. Now, who does that remind us of at the moment who couldn't possibly discuss what was going on in number 10 because there's an investigation going on? And that's what they hide behind and they hope that we'll all forget and that something bigger will come out to deflect from our personal agonies um and and so for me i'd already said because of the missing person she needed to go but when this report came out I thought you knew you knew and you were all about protecting the brand when our story had come out she that's when she should have drilled down and insisted that all WhatsApp groups were not going to allow it.

You have your own private phones. You have a work phone. But, you know, it's a disciplinary act if you are seen to be using your phone in this particular way. And I should say, if I may, Mina, at this point, for the Charing Cross incident, the Met Police did apologise and there are those recommendations. There was an apology in the end to yourself and to your family, but it came at the end of last year after they pleaded guilty, the two individuals. And it actually, she apologised uh in the recommendations for the missing persons

it said in the report we feel that the met owes the family an apology and that was another blow because i thought who needs to be told to apologise? You know, the old adage for bad management is apologise for nothing. Apologise for nothing. Because as soon as you apologise, you are accepting culpability. Just going back to something you said there, which I think, you know, especially a lot of women could perhaps identify with, is that you were made to feel that you were overreacting or that this was, you know, something that had never happened before or could never happen. That must have been very difficult in the midst of what you were already dealing with, having lost your girls. Yeah, I have to say that was a very small voice. The overarching response to our story has been incredibly positive. But the position from those who want to protect the establishment is, well, no, our police officers, they are working. Of course they are.

And you've had very good relationships with some police officers, which you've been at pains. When you last came on Women's Hour, I remember you saying that to me and you were at pains to say so because lots of our listeners work in the police. Yes. And I've got nieces in the police force and friends in the police force. And I know exactly the good job that they do. But, you know, when I have a service from someone, I don't feel I should be surprised by someone doing their job well. And that's the minimum. It sounds like you personally, you feel from this personal perspective as well this awful personal perspective that you've got that that Cressida Dick was in in some ways you tell me but but misleading uh about what had happened with you

knowing what she also knew about these WhatsApp messages that were being investigated. Exactly. So you do feel Cressida did it misled you? I think she was smoke screening. And, you know, we're seeing it in government where her personal view, whether or not she could take the risk and say to me when we had our private meeting look I'm going to tell you off the record that we have an issue but I can't you know I can't allow I can't say it because it would be too damaging. That would, of course, it would have been a huge risk.

But you can walk the line of not saying in a public way, this is outrageous. You know, our police force are amazing. This is one rotten apple, which is what she kept saying. This is a one off. This is not happening. You know, this is this is not usual. I'm talking to you on a day where I believe gaslit's just been used in a court ruling for the first time. And I wonder if you felt like you were you were gaslit in this situation, that you were saying this has happened. And would that

be a fair no absolutely it's it's where um they try and minimize or um make you unreasonable or emotional um saying look this if this has happened, it's terrible. But our police force, they are, you know, the phrase they were using, the best in the world. Well, yes, that is true. Two things can be true at the same time. But the truth is, in allowing this kind of behaviour to go unpunished, it proliferates, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And we the public know, if you've been

a recipient of poor policing, there are more people out there than just me, but, you know, they've been silenced. I'm comfortable speaking out about this. I happen to be someone who, you know, speaking out has been part of my role. But so many other people don't feel able to do that. I mean, we've not heard from Sarah Everard's family. But so many other people don't feel able to do that. I mean, we've not heard from Sarah Everard's family. They're doing what most people do when they've had tragic circumstances. So no judgment there.

But most people, when they're traumatised in this way, you turn in on yourself. When I thought of you a couple of weeks ago with that report with the Charing Cross police station, you know, you and I do keep in touch and we do message. And, you know, you talked about in one of those messages, if you don't mind me saying, it was a very difficult moment. I can't imagine how triggering these reports can be. Do you sort of have to go in on yourself for a few days to kind of regroup? Yeah, I do. I have. Yeah. My husband's nodding when you said that. Yeah, I do. I go very dark, isolate, don't want to sit with anyone, just watching Netflix or pondering over it. And it goes over and over again.

I then get back on that treadmill and I imagine, you know, all the things that have happened, what they've said and the more you find out you you kind of think they are there there is a rotten streak um these are nasty nasty people they're they're right wing um you know supremacists well you're not going to necessarily know people's politics or who who what were you talking about there sorry you're talking about i'm talking about some of the text messages about some of those abusive messages if you look at the abusive messages from those texts the things that they're saying the kindest thing you could say is that, you know, they're outdated, you know, relationships. How can you say, you know, have you slapped your missus yet? And so we're talking about the Charing Cross messages here, not what happened with your girls.

No, but I can't say on air what the WhatsApp group for our girls was. It is so horrendous. And it's not the two dead birds one. It's the other one. And if you don't know what that is, have a look. It says everything about it. And you have to live with that. You know, that's not a news story in your life.

That is a reality. Yeah. And it is, you can't believe that someone would do that. Take pictures of your dead daughters and put captions like that. i think your line sorry your line just slightly froze that mina you were saying you can't believe that people would would do that i'm hoping we can just restore your line there mina um apologies for that we were just as i the middle, has two teenage daughters. How could he do that? We just slightly missed a tiny part of that because the line glitched.

Apologies for that, for those listening. And to you, Mina. But yes, you were saying you can't quite imagine how anyone could post those messages and do that. Yes. And one of them has two teenage daughters. Indeed. Are you, if I may, you know, a lot of our listeners care greatly about you. I'm only, you know, I'm noticing some of the messages that coming in and saying, you know, for instance, Barbara says, sending best wishes to Mina, who speaks with such grace and dignity

in the face of such an awful tragedy compounded by the actions of some of the metropolitan police. You know, how are you doing day to day? And, you know, how are you kind of getting through at the moment? I know you used to, for instance, love a bit of gardening or, you know, finding yourself in nature a bit. But how is it at the moment for you, Mina? It's not great. I don't go out much. I tend to stay in. And the funny thing was I gained inner strength from talking it out.

And I was deliberately seeking times where I withdrew because I didn't want to be in denial and just, you know, cover up doing this activism business. And I am having counselling. I need it. I've got PTSD and I have panic attacks and, you know, I'm being completely open with people. So it's not how I come across on the television or the radio in my day to day life. This has impacted me. I normally my front garden would have spring plants in it and it's looking a bit sad at the moment, but, and we've done a bit of tidying up at the back. It's not great, but my counsellor said to me, you know, I was dividing my personality. I said, look, there's, I think I may have actually said it on the television. There's Mina, the mum, who is broken. Then there is Mina, the activist, who gives me purpose.

And she said to me, why are you separating them both? Because they're both you. And she said, how do you feel when you're not doing something I said I that's the time when I I allow myself to grieve and so she said so basically when you're not doing this you're depressed and I hadn't really thought of that. She said, so you're accepting depression and going into gloom and darkness. She said, do you think that's the right thing to do? I said, no, actually, I hadn't thought of that. I just thought it was a necessary thing I needed to do as part of the grieving process.

So I don't do that now well and I know also Mina that you wanted to talk today because that is part of what you want to do it's not easy for you but you also give strength but want to you know you gain strength from doing it as well so I am very grateful to you for coming on the radio this morning. Thank you so much. Oh, no, you're welcome. And I do get nervous. I do get anxious about being on the telly and on the radio. I'm just very good at covering it up, I think.

Well, you talk very well. And you've also reminded people if they've got to do their pots and they've got to go outside. Yes, that's right, yeah. Mina, thank you. Thank you. We covered a huge amount there. Mina Smallman thank you so much for

talking to us this morning and being so honest I suppose about what goes on when you're not talking on the radio and what isn't going on when you're not on the television as well and taking on that activist role. Another message here, the courage and dignity of Meena Smallman, this is from Professor

Ayesha Gill who's got in touch, really shines a light on those who fail to protect those who denigrate the police uniform, but being very specific about those who do. Thank you very much for that message. And I have to say, you've also been sending in a huge amount of messages

with regards to my initial question about telling your boss or telling those you work with that you are trying for a baby. Because you've probably heard of a health and safety officer. You might have worked with, I don't know, an equality and diversity officer. Maybe your workplace has taken it a step further and hired a wellness officer. Well, maybe where you work, if you work, has none of these.

But some companies that do have these roles do it in a bid, they say, to look after their employees better. But should we have someone looking out for family planning, as it's called as well? There are more than a three and a half million people in the UK currently experiencing fertility problems, and the majority of them are in employment. The lawyer, Natalie Sutherland, has just become, I'm told, Britain's first fertility officer. And Becky Kearns is also going to be joining this conversation. He's co-founder of Fertility Matters at Work. Let me start with you, Natalie. Good morning. Morning.

What on earth is a fertility officer? So a fertility officer is a position that we've created at the firm to signal to our staff that not only do we support them in their career building aspirations, but we recognise that you have lives outside of work, that you may want to create families and we support that too, because there's always this worry, especially in the legal profession, that if you acknowledge that you perhaps want to try and have a child, that this might affect your career. So having the position from the very beginning signals, I hope, to our junior staff that we support them in both endeavours. I want to question that and how it will be accessed and all of that, but your personal route to that leads you to having this connection, doesn't it? What was your story of trying to have a family so I had I was

actually very lucky in having a child easily to begin with but but I had a miscarriage unfortunately and then have had secondary infertility since then so so I come to it from a personal experience that I hope will help with the role in terms of being able to be empathetic and understanding. But also as a fertility law and surrogacy specialist solicitor, I have access, you know, or experience of my clients who go through a similar thing. So it was a natural step that I would take up this position. Why do you think people, and especially women, would want to come and have this conversation? And I'm saying this mindful of the fact you've just said where you work has this specialism in family law. Of course, there will be many lawyers and many non-lawyers

listening as well, but many lawyers who don't work anywhere near that part of practice. And the last thing they would want to do is go and talk to somebody at work about trying for a baby. I totally agree that it is a private matter and that this is not compulsory it's not there for you to say right the minute you're thinking of trying for a baby or if you have fertility issues you have to come speak to us the point of the role is to signal from the outset that we're here if you need help. Because what I found anecdotally with other lawyers, and I've had a lot of people come up to me after we threw an event called Infertility in the City in December to raise

this issue, is that they experienced this problem with not being able to tell their employer and having that position that tells you, the staff, that you work for an employer that will understand and will help. I think that takes away or at least helps to take away the stigma that infertility issues often has. So it's about those who are struggling with fertility and or miscarriage, you would say, potentially. Primarily, yeah.

Primarily. You talked about wellness as well, and we have a wellness officer. Because we very much care about our staff. Well, you do, but you can't say that everybody does. I mean, that's the issue, isn't it? Because you're this one role, but I might not work for you. I might have to work for that woman or that man over there in the different part of the office who may then look at me and think, well, she's not very ambitious. Well, I think having a child or deciding to have a family, you can have a career and be a working parent and still have those aspirations.

You're preaching to the converted. You are on Woman's Hour. You're talking to me. I hope that preaching to the converted you are on woman's hour you're talking to me i hope that i'm the converted um you know i'm back at work you know having thought to have that baby and you know just from my own perspective if i may be as bold to share it you know when having ivf i did everything in the world to hide it it's very difficult to hide it i was on the election trail i didn't tell anyone why i needed a fridge for injections i mean that it was actually because i do think it's very private and I found work an escape. I recognise that's personal, but I didn't want anybody to know because also I didn't think it was going to work. You know, there's a lot bound up in it. Becky, a good point to bring you in right now, because we are getting a range of messages on this. Do you support the idea of

Natalie's role, a fertility officer? Yes. So we at Fertility Matters at Work, the three of us who have co-founded this initiative, and we all have our own personal experience of going through fertility treatment and miscarriage. And we're now working really hard to try and educate employers about this issue that isn't really spoken about, that people like you say go through in silence and try to hide and what we want to try and do is is break down this stigma around talking about this topic and giving people the permission to have these conversations at work particularly when they're going to need time off for treatments like you say and they're hiding medication in the fridge all of these different things and the emotional impact that it has on individuals as well as they go through this.

You know, I know I was being quite muscular there. That's often how I am in positioning things, I suppose. But, you know, I'm reading this message and, you know, I do know from personal experience how incredibly difficult IVF is and how you feel a lot of the time on it, as well as the hope and the false hope. And I've got a message here saying, when I needed IVF, my employer didn't have a policy. So I ended up having to speak directly to my manager

about the time off I would need. It's such a deeply sensitive issue and it was one of the most difficult conversations of my life. I would really have appreciated some neutral or someone neutral and confidential to discuss what my rights were and how best to combine the treatment and my work. Becky, I do want to hear about your story, but actually your background is in HR and rights-wise, is it right that I read, you tell me otherwise, that if you need fertility treatment, it's in

some companies' HR policies that it's in the same part or it's listed as a similar um category as cosmetic surgery yes so through our research we found we have an instagram community of thousands of people and they share with us what they're going through and one of the ones that really struck me was um the fact that it was hidden within a policy in the same line as if you need IVF or elective cosmetic surgery you will need to take annual leave or take appointments outside of work time and that is I think one of the huge misconceptions that we find about this when people go through it that it's a lifestyle choice and not a medical issue and that's what we really want to try and change

and give people the confidence to say, I need medical help to build my family and I'm going to need your support to go through it. So whether it's flexibility, that listening ear, so having someone like Natalie in the organisation, a peer-to-peer support. But beyond the listening ear, do you actually have rights? For instance, if you need some time off

and you don't wish to have to take it as annual leave because it is a medical treatment with assisted conception are you allowed to do that or is it down to individuals hr policies it's down to individual hr policies there's currently no statutory right for time off for appointments relating to fertility treatment so there is no protection for people which is another reason why people feel scared to to talk about this because it's one thing i mean i've discussed before it's one of the most terrifying conversations to have when you say you're actually for some people going on maternity you'll need to go off um you know for others who can't even go for the starting

blocks and desperately wish to be pregnant they'd love to be having that conversation there's even worse conversation to be saying i'm going to need some time off to even try and have a baby because then you're saying to your boss or whoever I am going to also try and be off at some point which all of which paints a picture you don't necessarily want painted about you I will go back to Natalie in just a moment but Becky what you had an incredibly difficult journey to to get to this point and ended up having to to take a different course in your own career because of how difficult it was for you to build your family yes um so actually I was diagnosed with early menopause when I was in my late 20s and at that point in

time hadn't really been thinking that a family would be in within the next year or two um but having had that diagnosis I was suddenly told if you don't do IVF now, you may never have the opportunity to be a mum. And so I had the conversation with my employer. I'm a very open person. And for me, that was the right thing for me. But it was the most terrifying conversation I've ever had to have, because I felt like I was starting a new job. And then I was going to say, well, actually, I'm going to need time off for this. And inevitably, the assumption is made that you'll be going off on maternity leave I think that's another misconception when it comes to IVF that it guarantees a baby when actually it just gives

people a chance of a baby as well um but I subsequently went through five IVF cycles and a miscarriage as well as part of that and I remember while I was I was off for the miscarriage and it was a long drawn-out process where I just say how sorry I am for that yeah it it was a long process and I remember thinking to myself at the time Becky why are you struggling with this to just pull yourself together why can you not cope with this and and I was thinking about my time in HR and and I'd never had anybody ever come to me to ask for time off for fertility treatment or to talk about a miscarriage. And I thought I felt like I was the only one going through it. And it's only now I advocate and talk about this. I realized that there's so many people going through this. And eventually I built my family through egg donation.

So we had to take a very different path to what we originally thought and and I'm now a mum to three girls but I'm very passionate about trying to broaden that definition of family friendly and and organizations have done so much work over the last few years talking about family friendly and and the conversations around how to support working parents but there are one in seven individuals out there in the UK who are going through a difficult journey to build their family. And of course, we've also heard just this is a separate conversation, but it's related, you know, of campaigns in the LGBT community about the fact that they always have to use some form of assistance. And that in itself is something to help hopefully perhaps change this conversation and make it more mainstream and less shrouded in silence, not least, of course, the highly prohibitive costs, we should say.

And I also just really want to stress, you know, you may be thinking, my goodness, I work in an organisation with three of us. We don't have a wellness officer. We don't have this kind of officer. We're certainly not going to be getting a fertility officer. You know, there's a certain level of type of company or work you have to be in to even be accessing such treatments or such treatment. Natalie, just when you had that conference, you mentioned bringing people together in the city. Can you actually foresee the demand for this? Yes, more companies may create the role, but can you see a culture change there in law where you work?

That's what I'm really hoping to achieve, actually. The purpose of the event that we created in December was to bring women together that are in the legal profession to share stories, because I think that's really, really powerful to get across how people are experiencing infertility, what their companies might have done that was good for them, what was not so good for them. The people listening were really enthralled, actually, with the stories. And I had amazing feedback afterwards telling me

that they have gone back to their own employers to say, have we got fertility policies? Have we got a fertility officer? If not, why not? And I'm really hoping that law firms will see that it's a benefit, that it will help with retention and attraction of staff. And then if they have the policies as well that allows people to have the time off, then that's just going to be really helpful, I think, for staff. I think it's really helpful, but I think there is just such nervousness about how you will be perceived. I know that Becky you want to sign up companies to trying to think

about this in some way being aware of fertility and having to build your family not just you know going to bed with a partner and therefore it happens and that actually being quite a lot of work on the side of your job. Have any of the big names signed up? Are you able to tell us? We have actually signed up Selfridges. So they have just joined us to try and become fertility friendly. We have a few more in the pipeline, but we're not allowed to say who they are just yet.

The NHS, the BBC asking for a friend? Not on the radar at the moment, but we are having conversations. One of our co-founders, Claire, actually worked in the NHS. You'd sort of hope, I mean, I don't want to put words into their mouth, but you'd sort of hope where babies are born might also be a place of this sort of friendliness. You would hope. And we actually hear a lot of stories from the NHS

where people find it incredibly difficult. We hear from people in a range of different sectors and male-dominated industries and and pharma travel and hospitality and it's an issue across the board and i think like you said earlier it it affects what all of these people going through this are of working age and they're in employment and as natalie said it's about workplaces realizing that this is a life event that many people go through and that to support them means that they can help with their employee engagement attraction and retaining that talent and we held a survey back in 2020 and we

found that 36 percent of people had considered leaving their role because of the the balance of this and and having to juggle it and and the strain that it was putting on them. And I was one of them. I remember, I think, IVF cycle number four saying to my boss, I just can't do this. I think I need to take a career break. And you were able to sort of keep going in some way? Well, I made an adjustment to my role. I took a sideways move into a role outside of the development pipeline. So currently I was in the succession pipeline pipeline it took a sideways role to take the

pressure off and I reduced my hours to four days a week and and that allowed me to stay in employment whilst I was going through this and and that was to help me cope emotionally but also I was making these decisions whilst really vulnerable and also worried about the financial aspect as well because you pay thousands when you're going through this. huge and and also just to say you know you you're trying to cope with with an awful lot and you're you're getting through it and there's lots of decisions to be made and yet at the same time you know as i said earlier some people you know they need their work for the money but they also need the work for the escape and they they want to be doing a good job and and and another aspect that i have discovered talking to women struggling with

this, and it's largely been women I've personally spoken to, has been, you know, they are concerned about stress. So when they're actually going through those cycles, the stress of their job at the same time, they worry can play a role in those cycles not being successful or however they're being assisted. We have a question, Natalie, Becky, just while you're with me. An anonymous message here that says, so many messages have come in, I promise to try and get some. It says, request for advice. I'm a chef and I'm currently undergoing IVF.

I have not told anyone at work as I'm the only woman in the kitchen and I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about it. Soon I'll have to take some time off for scans, etc. And I still haven't figured out what to tell work as to why I will need days off. It's not a big enough company to even warrant an HR role, let alone a fertility officer. However, for me, that would have made this process much less stressful. So welcoming your role, Natalie. But Becky, perhaps your best place first to answer.

What would you say? So it's such a personal decision as to whether to disclose. One thing I would always say is how can they support you if they don't know? And sometimes you can be surprised at the reaction you get. We actually have some guidance on our website, which is a free download. We talk about how you can potentially bring up this conversation. And it's about being aware that you will have to educate. So having that you will have to educate. So having that information to hand to say, look, this is what I'm going through. Being really clear that it's a medical procedure and that it isn't a lifestyle choice.

And also thinking about some solutions beforehand about what might help you through this period of time. So it's going armed with information if you're comfortable to have that conversation and definitely talking about confidentiality as one of those key aspects of that if you're really concerned about other people finding out it's sometimes it may not be your direct manager but just finding that trusted person who can be that one to to kind of cover you if you're a little bit late in or if you're... So you're going for honesty. And I also think that's interesting because your study, I noticed from one of your studies said that during the pandemic, a lot of people found it easier because they didn't have to lie as much. I went for massive lies. So I was all about the lying.

And I'm seeing quite a lot of messages along those lines of some of the lies people have come up with. Natalie, I'm going to give you the final word. Was there anything you wanted to add to our listener who's a chef? Well, yes, it is very much a personal choice as to whether or not you say something. And it is difficult when you are potentially in that role where you don't know how they're going to react. But this is stressful. And if you can find that person that you might be able to confide in then I think that would help but the purpose of

the role is so that in companies if they appoint one that there is that person there specifically for this reason so that the people that are going through it don't have that worry about who to talk to. And I think just to add in terms of the role, it doesn't necessarily have to be an official role. It can be that that person we talk about there being sort of fertility advocates or fertility champions. Or I kind of inadvertently became that person within my organisation where I found managers would then talk to people within their teams and they'll say oh did you want to go and have a coffee with Becky because she's been through this and it is if you've got a large enough organisation to have that person who can be that support to other people. Alas this woman does not have that but it's very good of you to answer some of her

thoughts there. Lawyer Natalie Sutherland, Britain's first fertility officer, Becky Kearns, co-founder of Fertility Matters at Work. I promise I'm coming back to your messages. They're so powerful. But as we were coming on air this morning, the news broke that some of Russia's troops positioned on the border with Ukraine are returning to their bases, raising hopes of de-escalation and a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis. And Boris Johnson is planning to host a meeting of the government's Cobra Emergency Committee today to discuss the UK's response, having spoken to President Biden on the phone last night. Well, to get a sense of how it is for women on the ground, I spoke to Victoria Prisodeskaya from the BBC's Ukrainian service, who's in Kiev, and Lina Rozovinovskaya, who runs

a charitable foundation called Voices of Children based in the eastern part of Ukraine. Victoria did have a few technical difficulties with her microphone during our interview, so apologies for that. But I started by asking her about the mood in Ukraine's capital Kiev, where she is. It's bright and sunny. It's almost spring and the children went to school as usual and the parents went to work. But as we hear the news that the Russian troops are advancing near and near the Ukrainian border the anxiety and fear of the unknown are growing and of course as the women bears a bigger part of the emotional and

mental load they feel more pressure these days i believe and this is revealed in what happens in school parents chats and in the backyards of the schools where moms discuss a lot how to calm down when they ask each other whether we should talk with our children about the possible war, especially with the young ones? And if yes, how can we explain what happens if the war starts? What will be with our families and what will be with our usual life? The decision about what to tell and how to tell children that a war may be coming, it sounds like you say that falls largely to the women to take that on and take that responsibility. How are women talking to their children if they are about war potentially coming? I think we should be quite honest with our children and say that probably we don't know the whole picture and nobody knows the whole picture.

But what people share a lot in social media right now, the psychologist advice, they say that the important thing is to continue your usual life, to continue to routine. So wake up in the morning, do the exercises, go to school, go to sport and continue these usual things, which are very important. As I'm talking to you, there's a there's a breaking news alert with Russia saying it is pulling back some of its troops from the border with ukraine oh this is great great news hooray um and i mean i suppose that's coming in but demonstrates how you're you're living and and how everyone around you is living with just not knowing yeah there's a lot of unknown and the unknown um makes all this stress for people but i would like to say that there is no panic among people, and this is really important, and it differs a lot from what happened in the year 2014

when Russia supported the conflict in eastern Ukraine and annexed Crimea. It differs a lot right now. People don't panic. People show a lot of support and solidarity in social media and in personal contacts. It's interesting that many women are very proactive. So, for example, in our school, some moms organized to see by themselves

whether the bomb shelters are okay and accessible. So they didn't wait for administration to do this. Yes. Let me bring in Lina at this point. Lina, you work in the eastern part of Ukraine. What is the mood like there? I suspect in some ways it's different because of how long conflict's been going on there. Yes, we are providing our programs for psychological support, social support for children and the

their parents in the eastern ukraine and yeah we are constantly working like last seven like almost eight years yeah in the war conditions and we are now working with the kids with the children who are seven eight years old and never been witnessing uh like war life you know they were constantly growing up in the situation when it's fighting and it's a front line just in a few kilometers and so on so I and just recently yesterday I received a message from my colleague she's a psychologist and she's working in our program in eastern Ukraine now she's in Lugansk oblast and a psychologist and she's working in our program in Eastern Ukraine. Now she's in Lugansk oblast and she lives in five kilometers from the front line. And she asked me, oh, I see in Kiev you are such in a panic.

It sounds like, you know, you are more in panic here in Kiev or somewhere out of Eastern Ukraine than we are here in Eastern Ukraine, you know, you are more in panic here in Kiev or somewhere out of eastern Ukraine than we are here in eastern Ukraine, you know, because people more used to live in conditions of constant threat, everyday possibility of, you know, dramatically changing situation. And obviously everybody feels worried, yeah, and not safe and um not knowing you know we really don't know what's going to be tomorrow but um it much less in the eastern ukraine you know this stress that in maybe in another part of ukraine because for the last seven years we were talking only about the war only in um in in the geography of Donetsk and Lugansk region, you know, not all Ukraine.

And living like this for the last seven, eight years or so, what impact has that had and how has that affected the women? Well, for sure, it's not normal to live in a war condition. And for sure, a lot of people need support. And if 2014, 2015, when the war starts in Ukraine and Russian troops came into Donetsk and Luhansk, that time we mostly working on, you know, distributing food, water and, you know, evacuating people and, I don't know, looking for the place where they can live. You know, we have a lot of internally displaced persons inside Ukraine, like over a million. Now, after seven years, we are mostly concentrating our work on psychological support because now people have food. Now children continue to go school but that you know what

trauma the the fears that things they were witnessing but cannot speak about them cannot say to nobody that they are afraid this is such of things we are working with, you know, that helps them to overcome some consequences of armed conflict and develop. Lida, just a question before I go back to Victoria about talking to children about war and how to do that. What is your experience or what is the best practice you've seen on that? The best practice is to be open with your kid and to show as much as possible that you are next to him and everything will be fine because you are together and you are adult that know what to do. And after it depends on the age, if the children, if the child like really very small age, like two, three years, you can speak with him in a more general way.

Like, we are together, everything will be fine. If the child is more in some older age, like eight, ten years, you can speak more openly that even if something really happened and the war starts, we stay together, we will go there, we will stay there. Like just to show the kid not to lie, like everything is fine, you know, just to be honest. Victoria, just a final thought to you, of course, as I say, you know, while we're talking, it seems things are changing with this breaking news that Russia's defence ministry say some troops positioned on the border with Ukraine are returning to their bases after completing drills. It's raising hopes of possible de-escalation and I suppose this uncertainty. But it isn't just women reacting, I suppose, through the lens of their children and the families. I'm very minded to bring up a photo that was on some front pages of the newspapers in the UK yesterday

of a 79-year-old Ukrainian woman amongst those training to defend her country. And I suppose I wondered what you're seeing the role of women in the potential fight. It was a social buzz, really, and social media shared the photo of this woman. She joined the territorial defense forces organized recently in the Ukrainian cities to fight and to support the army. And I think women have been playing a major role in that. So many started joining the forces. They learn not only survival techniques and medical emergency help, but they also learn active combat actions like to shoot, for example, and the military tactics. I think it's an interesting point that the role of women in the military conflict has grown a lot in Ukraine since 2014. So I think the official statistics says that we have around 8% of women in the army in the first year of the war.

And we have now over 20% of women taking very different roles, like medics, paramedics, support staff and also soldiers. But at the same time, women on the front line face not only the dangers of war, but they also face a lot of gender-based problems such as discrimination and sexual harassment. And although Ukrainian government try to tackle this problem, the implementation mechanisms are very ineffective. And according to many human rights and women's rights protection groups, they say that the problem could be much, much more widespread than the official numbers say, because just people do not report the cases and they feel that the system is not effective. Victoria Prisodaskaya there from the BBC's Ukrainian service. And I was also hearing

from Lina Rozvadovska, who runs a charitable foundation called Voices of Children based in the eastern part of Ukraine. Hopes for de-escalation there with that news that some of Russia's troops positioned on the border with Ukraine are returning to their bases. And of course, that's ahead, that news ahead of Boris Johnson hosting that meeting of the government's Cobra Emergency Committee today. So many of you have been inundated with messages with regards to the idea of the first female, first fertility officer, I should say, Natalie Sutherland being appointed in the UK. It's at a law firm. She was just on the programme talking with Becky Kearns, co-founder of Fertility Matters at Work. I asked you how you would feel about telling your boss you were trying, especially, of course, if there

were medical interventions needed. Sherry's emailed to say how things have changed. Six decades ago, I lived and worked in Cheltenham. After telling my boss I was pregnant, I was dismissed because I might be frequently unwell and would need time off work. I then had to find another job, being honest about my pregnancy and that I could only work until the baby arrived. I suppose there would be safeguards now. I'm sure that people could have advised you, I suppose, at the time that there should have been safeguards then, but you're in the midst of trying to get through that. Thank you for sharing that message. But yes, I take the point about things changing. Debbie asks, would this sort of support be available for male employees? I needed my husband with me at appointments and during miscarriage. He felt he couldn't speak to his

bosses about it. Well, yes, Natalie said it would be certain in her company. Jenny says, I wish there was someone to have done this job when I was manager of 20 women. Struggling with my own fertility made it very difficult when members of the very open team wanted to come and discuss their family planning with me. Those who were excited about planning for a baby through to those going through IVF and all the issues that come with that, it would have been lovely to have had someone to direct them to. Rebecca, good morning to you, who's emailed in to say, I went through seven failed IVF cycles and a miscarriage over five years. I'm terribly sorry about that.

Before becoming pregnant with my first child. A further frozen cycle resulted in my second child three years later. I let my manager and some of my colleagues know almost straight away and I had nothing but kindness and empathy from them. Their practical and emotional support was invaluable and I have no idea how I would have managed if I hadn't had that. I've never felt that my IVF or desire to start a family would impact my career. I think even if you do have kindness though a lot of people do worry about that. That is an anxiety. An interesting message

here which may speak to some of you. An anonymous text says my partner and I are a year into trying to conceive. I'm 35. At the same time I'm at a transition period from ending a post as a contractor for a company with the promise they'll take me on as a full-time employee. Even though the company's very female, balanced and progressive, I wouldn't begin to believe I could open up to management about our fertility plans because I fear the company will question me being taken on full-time. I do feel dishonest going into this position, knowing or hoping to take time away soon but I've put companies before my own fertility for so long now it's time that I prioritize me and mine before a company. And Anna says I work in a lab environment sometimes with chemicals that

can cause harm to an unborn child like it or not I will have to tell my manager if I ever decide to try for a baby because I will need an adjustment to my duties for that baby's safety. And Trish, I had four cycles of IVF. My civil service employees and colleagues did know. I didn't tell my family, so the support and kindness from work was key in getting me through this brutal time, and brutal it is. My fourth attempt was successful and my son is now on his way. Trish, thank you so much for that message and all the best to you with that journey and to all of you who've been in touch this morning.

I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello there. This is Marian Keyes. And I'm Tara Flynn. And together we present a brand new podcast for BBC Radio 4 called Now You're Asking.

In each episode we make your problems our problems. Try to make molehills from your mountains. We read your emails, listen to your woes and do our best to help. And hopefully we can help some other people along the way. For example, do you suffer from resting bitch face in the workplace? I mean, I definitely do. Have you ever had to stash dubious hair trimmings in a hurry? When you say dubious hair, do you mean...

Oh, yes. You're not talking about eyelashes? No. Grant. So join us for love, laughs, lies, life and death. Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.