Woman's Hour - Mina Smallman, Pauline Campbell, FASD

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Mina Smallman, the mother of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry, the sisters who were murdered in a North London park last year, speaks to us about her grief and women's safety. She also talks about wanting to reach out to Sarah Everard’s mother because of the particular type of grief they share. She also reminds us of the type of people her daughters were.We get the latest from the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester with the BBC's Political Correspondent, Chris Mason.We hear from Pauline Campbell who's written a book called Rice and Peas and Fish and Chips. It's part social & political commentary, part memoir and explores what it means to be British. Pauline grew up in 1970s London as a first generation, immigrant child of Caribbean parents. She left school with virtually no qualifications after being told she wasn't clever enough for University. But at 23, when she was working as a housing benefits officer, she got a place at university to study law. Even though she was ‘black, old and a woman’ - her words - she kept going and qualified as a lawyer when she was 41. Now she's an award-winning local government lawyer. FASD stands for Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders. They're a range of lifelong disabilities caused by a mother drinking alcohol during pregnancy. They include physical, mental, behavioural and learning problems. A new study by The University of Salford says that between 600 and 1,300 children across Greater Manchester may have developed the condition every year. Based on those figures, the National Organisation for FASD believes that 1.2 to 2.4 million people in the UK may have had FASD in 2020. So what are the reasons for this increase and why is FASD so often misdiagnosed?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. And I want to ask today about friendship and bonds made through adversity. One of my first guests today is Mina Smallman, a name more people know tragically not because of her work as a former archdeacon in the church, but because two of her daughters, Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman, were murdered in a park by a man last summer.

The killer is awaiting sentencing later this month. But Mina wanted to come on Woman's Hour today to offer the hand of friendship to Susan Everard, the mother of Sarah, who was murdered by a policeman, a serving policeman, who was sentenced by a policeman, a serving policeman, who was sentenced to life in prison last week. As Mina puts it, the two women are members of a small club that no one wants to be in. Last week, I read aloud most of Susan Everard's victim impact statement that she read in court. So many of you were very moved and contacted me afterwards and the programme too.

Hearing what Susan had to say was extremely hard for Mina, but equally she knows how important those statements are as they give those who are left behind a platform, a voice. Shortly you'll hear what Mina also wants to say and has to say about her experience of the police, good and bad, her take on what needs to change to make women and girls safer, and some memories of her daughters, Bieber and Nicole. But you will also hear one mother reaching across to another and extending friendship and empathy.

What friends or bonds have you made in the toughest times in your life? And how did they come about? You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. On social media, you can get in touch with me at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, achieving your goal at 41. That's what Pauline Campbell did.

You'll be finding out more shortly. And we'll bring you the latest on what could be a landmark report into fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. But first, let's tune into the politics of the day as the Prime Minister limbers up for his speech closing the annual Conservative Party conference in Manchester. I'm joined now by the BBC political correspondent Chris Mason, who was at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester yesterday.

I believe you're back in London now, Chris. But this all links because I know you were listening to the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, the most powerful woman arguably in Britain today. And one of the big things she was announcing yesterday is an inquiry into the police. Tell us more. Yeah, morning to you, Emma. So yeah, this two-part inquiry as a result last week

of the conviction of Wayne Cousins for the rape and murder of Sarah Everard. So there have been calls for a couple of days from a lot of people for such an inquiry. And the detail we got yesterday from Priti Patel is that there'll be two parts to it. One will examine Wayne Cousins' previous behaviour to try and establish a definitive account of his conduct leading up to what happened in March. And then a second element, which is exploring wider issues across policing, vetting practices, professional standards and discipline. Now, this is going to be a non-statutory inquiry. The government says it can be converted into a statutory inquiry. What that means is that there isn't the legal power to compel witnesses to give evidence.

It has to be a statutory inquiry for that to be the case. The government is saying, as I say, that it will convert it into one of those if it feels it needs to. What we don't yet know is who will lead it or its precise terms of reference or precisely when it will be completed by. And there are concerns from some that when you create an inquiry like this, you create a stopgap. In other words, there's a gap between the inquiry being announced and eventually its reporting.

And into that gap, nothing actually changes. Because in case some of our listeners are confused, because I was, this is a different inquiry into the one announced by Dame Cressida Dick, the Met Commissioner, yesterday. It is. Yeah, this is a different inquiry into the one announced by Dame Cressida Dick, the Met Commissioner, yesterday. It is. Yeah, it is. So the aim of this inquiry announced by Priti Patel is to be much broader. And what was quite striking, actually, Emma, yesterday, speaking to police and crime commissioners, they are the elected politicians in each part of England elected to oversee their local

forces, is that they see the second element of this announcement set out by Priti Patel yesterday as being absolutely crucial. So stepping beyond the specific examination of the Metropolitan Police and the alleged behaviour of Wayne Cousins prior to the murder in March to vetting procedures in police forces all around the country, and then crucially cultural issues, cultural issues within police forces, but cultural issues in society at large as well. The concerns though, as you explained about the non-statutory element and not knowing who's going to lead it, all of this feeding into worries about nothing actually changing. And that's

what we're concerned with here at Women's Hour. What changes could we see? Would we see? The Prime Minister was asked yesterday, specifically on BBC Breakfast, I believe, any plans to make misogyny a hate crime. That's one suggestion from people who work specifically with violence against women and girls. No plans there. No plans there.

He thinks it's unnecessary to add additional laws to the statute book. And again, quite striking, speaking to people privately yesterday at the conference, there's quite a lot of pushback about that, because quite a lot of those involved in overseeing the police say, look, if you're going to get cultural change, you have to have a legal underpinning under it. That is what drives societal change. And people make comparisons, for instance, with making it mandatory to wear seatbelts in cars or laws around drink driving, where something becomes socially irresponsible. But it does, in the argument of some, because there is of someone's sexuality, for instance. Why shouldn't

you do for what is actually the majority of the population for women? The government's argument, as I say, is you don't need additional legislation. There's also the practicality, which is every additional piece of legislation leads to further backlogs in the court system and the courts already stacking up cases going years ahead. Well indeed on that point talking about justice and the court system Prime Minister was quizzed yesterday on the low levels of prosecution in rape cases and he sounded extremely fed up. He did so his language is very strong on this but what was quite striking he was talking to Beth Rigby of Sky News who who asked him specifically, will you commit to your promise to return to 2016 levels of prosecutions and convictions, which were still very, very small in rape cases, but considerably better than they are now.

Only one and a half percent of reported rape cases have led to a charge in the year to March of this year. Fifty five, nearly 56,000 rapes reported in England, just 1,100 rapists convicted. Vera Baird, the Victims Commissioner, has talked, hasn't she, about how rape has been effectively decriminalised. So when Boris Johnson was pressed, will you commit to your promise of getting back to 2016 levels, where the conviction rates were better, albeit still very small,

his language was strong about how much has to be done here, but he wouldn't quite commit to it and did point out the tough evidential problems, for instance, in ensuring that reported rape cases lead to a conviction. So as I say, in his rhetoric... So there's a concern, there's a chasm between what he says and what he does. Exactly. And there is that concern perhaps around some of the issues today leading up to his speech. I'm very minded that I'm speaking to you today, Chris, on the day which sees the end of the uplift on universal credit.

Many of the people, of course, affected will be women. I'm just trying to understand what we're hearing about how people will be affected and how that will actually play with the Conservative Party faithful because there's always this disconnect slightly between who they're talking for, all these ministers, including the Prime Minister, in the room and who they're talking to and how it gets received outside of that room. Yeah, it's a speech with two audiences. You have to get a good response in the room

or the whole thing does fall flat, but the audience that really matters is not in the room, those who might be persuaded to vote one way or another at the next election the timing in particular politically of the universal credit cut is awkward politically but who cares about that what really matters is for those who are suddenly going to be losing 20 pounds a week and what's been interesting in the pandemic is that universal credit and the number of people receiving it has increased hugely. In other words, the welfare state has become a far bigger thing in the lives of people who perhaps might never have experienced it. Around 6 million recipients of universal credit

at the beginning of this year. Now, it does cost this uplift £6 billion a year. So it's a huge amount of money. And the government's argument is that can't carry on forever. It was an uplift for a crisis period and a pandemic, and it has to be eased off. But what we've discovered and has been highlighted hugely in the last couple of weeks and months is that it is incredibly difficult for governments to take away benefits because you are taking money out of people's pockets, money that they will have this week and won't have next week. So that huge billions figure that you've just mentioned is obviously far larger than what's been talked about today, I believe,

but you correct me if I'm wrong, the 500 million that is being earmarked or put to one side within councils for those who are perhaps most affected by this being removed? It is, it is. Now, the government's argument is it wants to tempt people into work and better paid work. Now, lots of people who receive universal credit are in work. The government's instinct is you can't carry on borrowing vast amounts of money forever. And you have to encourage and stimulate the private sector and the jobs market, which is

in pretty rude health, to try and pick up the slack. But of course, that's fine in some sort of economic seminar. It isn't when people see £20 in their purse this week and it is gone next week, just like that. And there's a real awareness at the Conservative conference privately that that happening at just the point that furlough's ending and at just the point that we are heading towards winter with inflation going

up and all of the issues around energy prices and queues at the petrol pumps and all the rest of it. You're going to have quite a lot to go on Friday, aren't you in your programme? Any questions? There'll be no shortage of questions. Any questions? Yes, lots of questions Chris Mason, as always of course also the BBC's political correspondent.

Thank you very much for putting us in the picture. A message actually just straight off the back with what Chris was just saying about universal credit there. And actually, that's a topic we're going to return to a bit later on because one of my guests, Pauline Campbell, used to work in the Benefits Office before training as a lawyer. A message here saying, Dear Woman's Hour, I'm so angry about the universal credit uplift being stopped.

I want the whole of the UK to switch off their lights at 8 o'clock on Wednesday October the 12th for a minute to show how people affected are being plunged into darkness. So an idea and an emotion straight off the back of that particular interview. Anything else you wish to contribute, 84844 is the number

you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Now, last June, sisters Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry were stabbed to death in a London park. They'd been celebrating Biba's 46th birthday when they were attacked by 19-year-old Daniel Hussain. In July this year, he was found guilty of the murders and is awaiting sentencing later this month. Their mother, Mina Smallman, is a former archdeacon.

She believes the police handled the disappearance of her daughters with a lack of urgency and has questioned whether this was because they were two missing black women. Two police officers are also still facing the criminal charge of misconduct in public office in connection with allegations that they took photographs at the scene of Nicole and Bieber's murders and subsequently shared them. Last week on the programme, I read aloud a large part of the victim impact statement of Sarah Everard's mother, Susan, a statement which greatly moved Mina and brought back a lot of memories. Yesterday, I spoke to Mina Smallman,

who was being supported in the background by her husband, Chris, whom you'll hear her mention. Yeah, it just took us back to our court case and we also did a impact statement and the thing is it's the the only way you get to share what you felt. I think it's very valuable, but it also is an opportunity for you to reflect on the journey. I love the idea that I think it was she asked for cousins to look. Was it the father said, look at me when I tell you this?

Because he kept his head down all the time. Yes. It's that one opportunity. Whatever cousins was thinking or Hussein was thinking, they weren't thinking that our girls were human they lost their their humanity otherwise they could never have done what they did um to their victims but uh it's horrific i hope at some point actually i i get an opportunity to meet with Sarah's parents because we're such a really small and select group of individuals.

You know, no one, I've said in the past, no one expects to outlive their children. But, you know know during the pandemic so many people have lost loved ones but there is something different about your children being murdered and knowing that their last few moments of life, they spent it in absolute terror. Yes, I mean, I think again, with Susan Everard's words, perhaps more recently in people's minds,

it was that line in her statement where she said she gets to a certain point every evening and she finds herself shouting, don't get in the car, know stop um yeah which which must have really resonated with you absolutely um you know myself and chris we you know it hits us at different times but we do the what ifs you, that week the weather had been so changeable that if it had rained on the Friday night, they wouldn't have been there. And, you know, sadly, one of Beaver's closest friends,

she is going, she's suffering with um ptsd um because she constantly um chastises herself and says why why did we leave them you know we should have stayed and you know i i i said well you know beaver had had her own mind and they had a plan. They wanted to dance in the dark with the fairy lights and film it. And you wouldn't have persuaded them because that's what they wanted to do. I know you say you hope to meet Sarah Everard's parents. Is there something you would like to say, especially perhaps to Susan as fellow mothers,

in case she was listening today? I'm so pleased they were spared weeks of a court case. But I just want to say to her that we know, Chris and I know, that there is no point where you can celebrate that this is not a victory. I know that because when he was found guilty, we had no celebration afterwards. And anything that you do will never bring them back. But just to say that I think of her often, of her mum.

And people often struggle with what to say to you because they don't want to say the wrong thing. And saying, I'm sorry for your loss, feels hollow to the person who's saying it. But, you know, I would say reach out for help. You know, if you're having nightmares or can't sleep or can't eat, you know, go to the professionals. And Victim Support are an amazing organisation. They have the ability to arrange for counselling if it's needed but don't suffer in silence, you know, because there comes a time when everybody else has to get back on

with their lives. But I know all the parents who've lost children, as we have, will be your in our thoughts and our prayers. I was going to ask how important your faith has been to you during this time? I couldn't have done it without a faith, actually. And this is where your Christian family, they pray for you. There were times where I was so bereft, I couldn't pray.

You know, you're asking the whys, the hows, the wherefores. You're in your own grief. So, you know, my church leader, the church I go to, GLOW, they would phone regularly or text and say, we're praying for you. And I didn't think that I would be one of those parents who could forgive the murderer. Because, you know, I've always been quite fiery person and hot on women's rights and, you know, women's safety. And I used to hear of mothers who had their children murdered and said,

I remember one woman saying, you know, I have to forgive this person because that's what my Christian teaching teaches me. And I remember preaching on that and saying, what an amazing woman this was and what a testament to her faith. But in my heart, I thought, I'm not sure how I would react. I really, you know, I hope that I'll be able to do it. And strangely enough, yeah, my faith and my faith that there is someone greater than ourselves, I was able to do that. And I think people might confuse forgiveness with a compassion and a liking of that person. It isn't that at all. It's that you take yourself off the hook. It is not my job to judge you or to make you suffer.

It is my job to remember my girls and focus on everything that was beautiful about them. And so that we can live our lives without constantly having them in your thoughts. I didn't know if you didn't mind me asking at this point, only because you mentioned it there, about Bieber and Nicole, what kind of women they were. They were amazing. They had lots of things in common. They enjoyed festivals, very creative.

Biba, she was fiery like me. I think it might be a short woman syndrome thing um but you know it we we were never we never um took prisoners you know we we would call it like it is um and Nikki she was just such a gentle soul um she would just she was just so funny. She would take funny pictures of herself and she never took herself seriously at all. She was beautiful inside and out, but she couldn't give a damn about fashion or she was just who she was. In fact, the running joke was every time she came to visit and we would go out as a family for meals, she would always have on a pair of holy tights. And she would come down and I'd say, oh, Nick, we can't. She said, mum, it doesn't matter. And I would say, please, just for me.

So I always had drawers full of tights for her so that in the end she would just say um mum have you got the tights yeah and i'd give her the tights uh but she was hilarious mad on animals um just a beautiful human being who really only ever saw the best in people. I think it's so important to hear about them as people and give you that opportunity. And I'm grateful that you feel you can share some of that because, you know, women, girls are at the heart of this, you know, real people. And we have been talking about where do we go now and what do we do and i'm very mindful uh that you're in a situation that where the worst sentencing is still awaiting and also there's still no court case for the two met police officers uh pc jaffa pc lewis charged

with misconduct in public office just to remind listeners, by taking non-official and inappropriate photographs of the murder scene. There's still no date for that, I understand. How exciting is that for you at the moment? Because you can talk about how you are trying to cope and what's getting you through, but you're on on the the date that the bodies were were found and that's the date that the court case began and that went on for like three and a half weeks so you're always it's like you're always on the starting blocks and you're you you know you you see the finishing line and you think right once we get past this we can put that behind us so with the sentencing now has been booked for the 28th of October um and ironically that's uhiba and Nicole's sister. That's her birthday and my birthday the day after. So, you know, my running phrase is you couldn't make this up.

The dates of all the things that keep happening. But, you know, we wouldn't have been enjoying our birthdays anyway. And so we can't move on until those things are concluded. before about women's rights. I wanted to ask you about what you think should be done about violence against women or where you think we should be, because there has been talk of the emphasis being in the wrong place over the last days, weeks and months around how women should change their behaviour, what women should do. Where are you on this, Mina? It's not the potential victim that should be making sure that they're safe. So the onus is on them to take action. Actually, we have laws in place that are supposed to protect women, but they're not implemented. So, for example, women who have been sexually abused or domestic violence,

they're frightened to go to the police because the way things are skewed, it's about what did you do to provoke that or well she was drunk how do we know she didn't give consent all of those things and and then if it does go to court the prosecution are or the defense are saying bring up all her previous sexual partners or you know we have to start using what's in place in the right way and so many of these court cases they these um crimes are not they don't get to the court and actually the sentencing when they do get to court is so minimal and I think we are so concerned that and this is historical in the past we have been so concerned about ruining the reputation of the man and therefore it has to be watertight

beyond belief that they often when someone does go to court it comes out that they have had cases against them numerous cases against them so we are part of the problem. We have given permission for things to accelerate to the point where we have someone who is a police officer who feels able to do what he did. We've heard quite a bit about WhatsApp and the police and vetting or lack thereof. And also only very recently,

the policing ministers just talked about social media accounts of police officers haven't been checked until extremely recently. How is your faith in the police at the moment? I am really balanced on this because if I think of the team, the Met team that led the murder investigation, Simon Harding, who's now retired from the met um and the police officers who worked on that case uh there was one police officer his job was trying to locate um all of the rubbish um that had been disposed of because the blanket the picnic blanket all of the cushions um hussein had bagged them all up and put them in the bins knowing that anybody looking at the

baggage wouldn't know what the content was and of course it did go to the dump so what they this police officer what he did i think for five or six days went through tons and tons of rubbish and he actually found the bag and it had blood on it, the DNA and everything. So that's the right police. They're the good people, men and women. But it's the cover-up, you know, it's the in silence, you know, policewomen now coming out and saying that an officer exposed himself to her while she was on duty and she never told anyone and someone said to her well you let that happen and you didn't say anything what what what do you think of that? And she said, before that incident, I would never have thought that I would have kept silent about it.

And so she was asked, why did you keep silent about it? is an accepted camaraderie of white males to make sexist comments towards us. And it's all supposed to be tongue in cheek. Well, that's exactly the same thing as racism and sexism and homophobia. And you don't expect that kind of behaviour to be so out in, you know, not even hidden, but it's acceptable. It's an acceptable way of behaving in the the police force but not by the good people I mean I actually have nieces who are quite senior in the in the the court and the two of them said you know aunt amina we we've been thinking of do we even want to be part of an organization that can do this sort of thing this is before um the sarah everard case and i said to said, you know, it's always the good people who take on the guilt and the shame.

You know, it's not people like you who need to leave the police force. We need to out those who are a disgrace. Well, I think that balanced view and that experience you've had of the authorities is again very important to fully hear about, or as fully as we can now. Yeah. Women don't, you know, there is a kind of slant coming through the newspapers and the questioning that, you know, do you trust the police? Do you trust the police? That's the wrong question. The right question is, what do you think you want the police to be doing? What do they need to focus on to make it right

and I've said you know I don't get paid for doing any of this but you know if they want me to come in and and do them a four-point plan I could tell them them. So, you know, do your job, Priti Patel. You know, do your job, Boris. Do your job, Mayor of London. Do your job, Cressida Dick. You know, they are taking huge amounts of money to provide a service and they're not doing it. What do you think Bieber and Nicole would make of you taking this on and talking like this? I know that part of, I didn't think, I wasn't going to go to the vigil set up by reclaiming the streets for our girls because Chris had been to the park that day and he didn't think he could go there and I wanted to support him and anyway it came to me on on the day because we had a celebration of life for them um a party a celebration and um the vigil was scheduled afterwards and I had to say to Chris, Chris I know you don't think you can go but I do have to go because if I didn't go the girls would be saying this has broken her because she's never

shied away from anything that's tough. This has broken her. And, you know, I wanted to send them the signal and any other parents that actually when it comes to doing the right thing for our children, we find the strength somewhere. And so I've said, they would be saying, go on, mum. Go on, mum. Mina Smallman talking to me yesterday, and many of you getting in touch to say what you feel and think, and your own experiences of friendships in very difficult times. I promise to come to those in just a moment. But in a statement from the IOPC, the Independent Office for Police Conduct, the regional director Sal Nassim gave us this statement. Our thoughts and sympathies remain with Nicole and Biba's family and friends. We

have concluded our investigation into how the Metropolitan Police Service handled calls from the family and friends of Nicole Smallman and Bieber Henry about concerns for the sisters' welfare. We will be updating Nicole and Bieber's families with the outcomes shortly. PC Jamie Lewis and Dennis Jaffer are still facing the criminal charge of misconduct in public office in connection with allegations the officers took photographs at the scene of Nicole and Bieber's murders and subsequently shared them. They will appear at the Old Bailey on a date to be fixed. The findings from our investigations will be published

when any potential proceedings have concluded. A message here from Rhiannon saying, I've been listening to Mina Smallman talking on the programme. I hadn't realised who she was until she spoke of the crime as I missed the start of the interview. The most incredible woman seems so soon, but her thoughts are so clear and so, so valuable. What a wonderful woman, reads this next message with no name. Our hearts go out to you, Mina, reads this one from Kath.

Thank you for coming onto the radio so we can listen to you. So much courage and integrity. I'm so sorry for what happened. Words fail me. Another one here from Susan, who says, I just want to say how moving it was to listen

to Biba and Nicole's mother, Mina, and how grateful I am for her talking to all of us with such strength and compassion. She's an example to all of us. Thank you for being such a strong and beautiful person in the face of such a tragic experience.

And I pray that you can be heard again and again by those who can change our culture. My heart goes out to you. Fiona says, listening at the moment, inspiring is too simple a word for Mina Smallman. And on these friendships that you may or may not have made at times when you just couldn't have imagined it, quite a few messages on this because we started our conversation with Mina telling me how she wants to reach out to Susan Everard, Sarah Everard's mother, especially in light of her victim impact statement and what she would say to her. Anna says a lot of us are linked in love and understanding through road peace with others whose sons and daughters were killed in road crashes.

We are linked by an understanding of the absolute horror of the damage done to their bodies, to an understanding that these are not accidents, by a feeling that a number of road fatalities and injuries is regarded by society as a price worth paying to make us free to come and go

as we wish on the roads. The lifelong effects of the loss of our children is just like the loss of a murder victim, but no one will talk about it. I miss my Daniel as much as I did on March the 10th, 1985, when he was killed. Maybe Woman's Hour will change this and start talking about it.

That's from Anna. Thank you very much for messaging in, Anna, and for letting me read that out. Another one just here to say on friendships. I met a wonderful friend when I was in a very difficult place in my life. My marriage was ending. It was a very traumatic separation. My oldest daughter, 11, at the time was extremely ill and I was battling with mental health services who wouldn't listen to us or believe us.

Eventually, my daughter was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder and I was put in touch with the chairwoman of my local National Autistic Society branch. She listened, she believed. That was so powerful in terms of our family's recovery. We are now friends and we enjoy running out the challenges of our life on the Northumbrian beaches near our homes. I really value this friendship that has grown out of something so very hard to bear. Thank you so much for that message as well. No name attached to that

particular one, but please do keep them coming in. They always add to our experience and to what we're talking about. And also, of course, Tamina, who, you know, gave that interview and it wasn't easy to say the least. And I'm very grateful that she did. And we'll continue talking to her, I hope, as this goes on and as this discussion goes on. So many of you have been in touch as well over the past weeks and days about violence and what we should be doing. Now, in terms of those who represent us, those who have the arguments at their fingertips, those who perhaps have taken a career in law, I've got a very interesting guest for you to hear from next. Pauline Campbell didn't achieve her dream until she was 41. What have you perhaps wanted to do that took a long time to do it and why did it take that time? Pauline, aged 23 I believe, while working

as a housing benefits officer, landed a much-wanted place at university to study law and despite the obstacles, as she puts it, being black, old and a woman, qualified as a lawyer, aged 41. She's now aged 57, an award-winning local government lawyer. Growing up in 70s London as a first-generation immigrant child of Caribbean parents, she left school with virtually no qualifications after being told she wasn't clever enough for university. Her experiences are now poured into a lovely book called Rice and Peas and Fish and Chips. Pauline Campbell, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for inviting me. Well, thank you for being with us. And I want to ask about, you know, several parts of your experience, but we'll just start with rice and peas and fish and chips. Why is it called that? It's called that because it's a mixture of who we are as Caribbean children. If I had to choose two foods that I love, which one would it be um i couldn't make up my mind um so that's why i called it because it encompasses us as caribbean children first generation i love rice and peas and i love fish and chips so that's why two of the best right yeah i hate vinegar oh my fish and chip pauline we were getting we were getting on so. Why have you just had to do that? I mean,

the more vinegar, the better. Let's not have the debate about curry sauce with chips. Anyway, moving on. I'm very mindful of you having worked in the benefits system before being a lawyer and the day that I'm talking to you on. We've had a mixed reaction on this. Today, the temporary £20 increase to universal credit payments ends. Just having had that experience of working with people directly receiving benefits, this would have been something you would have been dealing with. And I wonder what you wanted to say about that. I think the difficult thing that I faced, or we all face as officers when we were working in the benefit system, is the situation is that the power is not in our hands in relation to the

changes that are made and one of the difficult things I faced when I was incorporating changes in benefits decreases of people's money was that these changes are being put in place by people who don't actually ever have had experience of being on benefits themselves. And so it's a very difficult situation to be in, because you know that you're being put in a difficult position. £20 a week is massive. £1 a week reduction in somebody's income when their income is on a low amount is massive. It's a difference between a loaf of bread and not getting a loaf of bread. It's a difference between all the things that you might be able to get with a pound is massive. So 20 pounds when you've had it for a period of time is going to be really detrimental.

But as a benefits officer, there's nothing you can do other than give the information. And you are the one that has to deal with the fallout, whereas those who are incorporating it don't. Yes. And I even think, you know, the debates around this, as they can be, for instance, we got a message saying the £20 was meant to be a bonus to help get through these people who want more. There are thousands of job vacancies. We need to lower benefits, not keep in place a temporary bonus. Not everybody's in favour, it's safe to say, of this remaining. It's one of those things, I suppose, that the humanity can go out of it when you actually debate the point and you will have seen the human impact, I suppose, of that wherever you stand on

that. But you actually now find yourself, you describe yourself as a prosecutor with a heart. Tell us what you do now, because you work on behalf of the local authority, probably having to deal with issues around such things and making sure that rules are kept. Yeah, we deal with all aspects in enforcement law here. I run a team for prosecution. So that's enforcement of the entire council. Is it Walsham Forest now? Walsham Forest, London Borough of Walsham Forest. And the difficult work, it's not difficult for me because of my background. I find that we have to think about what you call reasonableness, proportionality. How do we impose the law when we enforce? And it's our job as lawyers to make sure that we're fair and reasonable in how we do it.

And there will be times when we will say we don't agree with the way things are being done. But that doesn't mean that we don't do it. We look at how we incorporate the law in a fair and proportionate way so that we talk to the people that we're dealing with in an open and fair fashion and make sure that they get representation before they come before us in court, which is so important. and that's what I do all the time. How much is your, forgive me there's a slight interruption on the line there as I'm talking back to you, but how much has your battle to be a lawyer informed the way that you conduct yourself? In every aspect of everything I do that's why I call myself the prosecutor with the heart, because coming from the background I come from, coming from the prejudice that I've experienced along with my

generation and my parents experienced and following generations of experience, you come to the table with an idea, you walk into the room with a different perspective of what life is. So with my investigating officers, I don't really see myself as a lawyer. When I work with my colleagues, they're good at what they do. I'm good at what I do. And therefore, we work together as a team. This isn't about me being the lawyer and them being investigating officer. This is about us working together to get things right. And that's been immensely useful to me because it means that I work well with the colleagues I have because we have an understanding of each other from a legal perspective as well as from their own perspective. I mentioned there that you were told you weren't clever enough for university.

Did somebody say that to you? When I was 15, I was told by my tutor I was not A-level material. And that was after being in the top streams for the first few years in secondary school but I just fell away things happen which the books describes the book goes into a lot of detail about what happened to me from the age of 12 upwards which led to me falling back with my grades I thought it was just me not being clever enough but it wasn't about that at all it was a lot more to it than that. And so for me, when I actually made when the teacher told me that my dad told me not to believe her,

I chose to believe my teacher because I'd never had a black teacher. I'd never seen a black MP. I'd never had a black doctor. All the things around me was telling me that, OK, maybe I'm not. And I regret that day I always will but I took it on for a long time 16 years actually. Did you yes um forgive me I think I said uh 23 at going to university was 33 um but 41 to qualify but in terms of your which makes it you know all the more remarkable because you you hankered after and you kept going and you got there um but do you did you I know there's a lot of reasons that you explore and unpack in the book and you kept going and you got there. But do you, I know there's a lot of reasons that

you explore and unpack in the book and you talk about what it is that makes us British and our identity. But did you put it down to racism, what that teacher said, or how do you acknowledge it now? At the time, you're just a young person. So you don't really think about the reasons for why somebody is saying something to you. I never put it down to my teacher saying it to me because I was black. I put it down to my teacher believing that I just wasn't good enough. But when I look at it, there is a preconceived idea about Caribbean children in schools and their ability. And within the book, I look at reports that have been drafted, things that have been done that identify that there are

low expectations when it comes to Caribbean children. So if they do fall away or their grades aren't that good, the reasoning behind that is they're just not as capable, which is soul destroying for somebody who is capable. A message that's just come in from Lynn saying, listening to Pauline, I did the same. I qualified as a solicitor just before my 40th birthday. It was the perfect job for me. Don't be afraid to change. If you're lucky, life is long and it doesn't have to be me. I want them to read this book and say, hold on a minute, I'm not going to waste 16 years of my life in believing what I'm told. I'm going to believe in me from the start, irrespective of what's around me, irrespective of the processes that are in place. It's up to me to do what I need to do. And a number of people change their careers later on in life. And they do incredibly well with it. So it's a reach out to people who are of all ages who want to change and are not happy with what they're doing to become what they want

and to see that it can be done. Pauline, thank you so much for talking to us today. Pauline Campbell, books called Rice and Peas, Fish and Chips, and it should be with vinegar. I'm just going to leave it like that. Pauline's not going to agree with me, but, you know, one time I can win an argument perhaps with a lawyer is when we talk about that, and it's a straightforward one. So thank you to Pauline there. Some more messages about things that you've done a bit later in life and keep them coming in, please.

I did mention this new study into fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. A range of lifelong disabilities caused by drinking alcohol during pregnancy suggests between 600 and 1300 children across Greater Manchester could have developed those disorders every year. The condition, based on those figures compiled by the University of Salford, the National Organisation for Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders, believes this means that some 1.2 to 2.4 million in the UK may have had them in 2020. These disorders refer to physical, mental, behavioural and learning problems. Joanna Buckard, Specialist Project Coordinator at the National Organisation and

Jan Griffin, her son who's 19 and was diagnosed with such disorders at 12, both join me now. Joanna, if I could just come to you for some of the background on this. First of all, I wanted to ask how significant this new study is. What does it show us that perhaps we hadn't seen before? Well, National FASD has been calling for this kind of prevalence study for about 20 years. So we're delighted that finally that we have some figures that we can use. The difference that this can make is that people now can recognise that FASD is real, that it exists, it can't be denied anymore. For a long time, people have been trying to suggest

that it might only be a very small problem. Actually, this is a serious and prevalent condition. And does it always happen because of alcohol drank during pregnancy? Do we know that? Yes, that is the only cause. This is only caused by alcohol use during pregnancy. Do we know that? Yes, that is the only cause. This is only caused by alcohol use during pregnancy. I just wanted to make that clear because, again, people know very little and there's lots of myths around it and lots of stereotypes. Joanna, to bring you into this, Jan, tell us first of all how this affects your son. With my son hi thanks so much for for having me here and listening

it um affects my son rossi um with his memory his executive functioning his uh ability to understand consequences and anything abstract like time and money, which are basically your needs for living life as a neurotypical person. So he has difficulty in that. I understand it was very difficult to get a diagnosis and took a long time. And if we can, let's get to that. And I know you've spoken before about that and want to raise awareness. But one of the problems about speaking about this is the stigma attached to you, to the mother. Yeah. I mean, that is one of, since I found out, it is one of my real flags is to try and get people to understand that it's not what we imagine as society, the person that has the child with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. I used to presume that it was people that had an alcohol problem

or a drug problem, but in fact it's not. If we work out the numbers, you know, you've got 1% of children in care, possibly 4% of children with FASD. So there's a vast amount of people percent of children with FASD so there's a vast amount of people young people with FASD that um are born to people like myself and that's what I want to get across yes and in your in your situation you you obviously did drink some alcohol during pregnancy but as you're saying you didn't have an issue with alcohol no i didn't have an issue with alcohol and i presume that a lot of people don't and what um my i was a typical 40 year old

woman uh had gone through the menopause and found out after that um that i was pregnant around about four months so it was a big shock i'd been living best life, 40 years old, and had heard nothing about alcohol, had been advised by the doctors at my age, 40 years old, to either have sleeping tablets. Obviously, I was stressed, thinking, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm having another child at 40 years old. I've got heart problems. So I could either have sleeping tablets or a little tot of whiskey to help de-stress because stress was quite bad. I presumed I was absolutely against any medication. So I refused point blank to take sleeping tablets. And so agreed that maybe a tot of brandy might be good.

However, I didn't even like that. So after three or four nights of trying that, I stopped doing that as well. But up until that point, I had been a normal 40-year-old woman, having a glass of wine, going out with my friends after work, all of that. And it wasn't until 10 years later that I found out that my son had FASD and even heard of FASD. Not once was I asked by any midwife, do you drink? Have you drunk alcohol? I was told not to smoke. I was told not to smoke I was told not to

eat cheese all of which I didn't do but never never once was I told not to drink and in terms of what you've just described there Jan and to come back to to, you know, some people will be listening to this thinking, well, I've drank similarly or I have drank through pregnancy. What advice do we actually have about this? Because while it's important to say this hasn't been recognised enough, we also know that this doesn't happen to everybody who drinks during pregnancy and it doesn't happen to every child, I should say. Yeah, the Department of Health have said that there's no safe amount of alcohol to drink in pregnancy for half a decade so that isn't new news in terms of you know current state. Always we get people call in and ask questions you know if they have had alcohol in pregnancy and our first thing we always say is not to panic.

It is true that not every single person who drinks will have a child affected. Unfortunately there's no way for us to be able to predict, for any professional to be able to predict, which child would or would not be affected, which is why no alcohol is the only safe message. But it's important that people recognise some of the symptoms that might occur when a child has been alcohol exposed, so that if they are affected, it means that they can go to professionals and ask for support. That makes a huge difference. Could you just tell me, a bit short for time, what are the symptoms? Yeah okay so children with FASD tend to have a range of problems. It's a complex neurodevelopmental disorder. So as Jan referred to children can have problems with executive

functioning which is a bit like the control centre of your brain, which helps you with planning an organisation, helps you with switching between tasks. There can be impulse control problems, adaptive behaviour, which is social skills, being able to do the tasks of daily living, problems with language. So typically someone can have good expressive language, so they talk well, they're chatty, they're articulate, but they can have lower levels of receptive language, which means that they aren't understanding at the same level. There can be problems with emotional regulation, particularly in times of stress. So there's a range of different factors, but it is a severe impairment

which has to be assessed by a range of professionals. Well, we will put information onto the Women's Hour website. Joanna Buckard, thank you to you. Jan Griffin, thank you to you and all the best to your son. We'll be back with you tomorrow when Woman's Hour turns 75. I will be celebrating with some chips afterwards, definitely with salt on and lashings of vinegar. Vinegar, do not miss it. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 o'clock. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that rubs against your skin.

A plot to kill Nelson Mandela. To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. And the deadly riots in South Africa this year. I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia. Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison. That's Poison from BBC Radio 4. To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously

on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.