Woman's Hour - Mina Smallman, Workplace Fertility Officers, Covid Jabs for kids, Suffragist Lydia Becker

Episode Date: February 19, 2022

Mina Smallman, the mother of the murdered sisters Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman is one of the key women who called for Dame Cressida Dick to resign from her position as Metropolitan Commissioner. As negotiations continue on when Dame Cressida will leave, we get Mina’s reaction.Do we need a family planning one as well? Lawyer Natalie Sutherland has become one of Britain’s first fertility officers and Becky Kearns is co-founder of ‘Fertility Matters at Work.’ They talk to us about why more companies should consider appointing one.During lockdown, full-time carer and former history teacher, Joanna Williams sat down at her kitchen table and wrote the biography of 'The Great Miss Lydia Becker.' She thought the world needed to know about the 19th Century Manchester suffragist - beyond the few lines she had found in a text book.Children aged between 5-11 in all four nations of the UK are to be offered a low dose of the Covid vaccine. Dr Elizabeth Mann, an immunologist at the Lydia Becker Institute at the University of Manchester and Naomi Grimley, BBC Global Health Correspondent joins us.Prince Andrew has reached an out of court settlement with Virginia Giuffre, who had accused him of sexually assaulting her when she was 17. He has always denied the allegations and hasn't admitted any liability. Georgina Calvert-Lee, an employment and equality lawyer at McAllister Olivarius and expert on NDAs and MP Jess Phillips, Labour's Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding discuss.One mum in the US was left shocked when she told her nurse one of her twin daughter's names, only to be laughed at for it. She posted a video to her TikTok account which went viral. We talk to SJ Strum, who has a YouTube channel and blog which offers baby naming advice.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Krupa Bhatti and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is where we bring you select standout moments from the week just gone. This week we hear from one of the first workplace fertility offices in the UK and one listener tells us about her book on a lesser known suffragette. She did, she travelled all over the country addressing meetings and at the beginning they were packed out because the idea of going to see a woman making a speech

was such a bizarre thought to most people and she had huge audiences just to come and see this strange woman. We also talk about baby names, but first. Mina Smallman is a former archdeacon and the mother of the murdered sisters Bieber Henry and Mina Smallman is a former archdeacon and the mother of the murdered sisters, Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman. They were stabbed to death in a park in Wembley in 2020, having been enjoying birthday celebrations. Two Met Police constables who took photos of the women and sent mocking messages about them on WhatsApp groups, pleaded guilty to misconduct in a public office, were sacked and then jailed for 33 months in December.

As negotiations continue on when Dame Cressida Dick, the outgoing Metropolitan Commissioner, will step down after she announced her resignation last week, Emma spoke to Mina and began by asking her why she felt Dame Cressida had to go. I don't know if people will remember, in the beginning I'd said I didn't think that that was the answer for Cressida had to go. I don't know if people will remember in the beginning I'd said I didn't think that that was the answer for Cressida to go because it just delays progress but of course as the story progressed then we had Sarah Everard's murder, we, you know, another police officer took pictures at that scene. Then we had the outcome of the report on the missing persons.

And gradually, I just began to see and understand that, you know, she was completely ineffectual. As a woman, I don't want to focus on her in that way. It's the job. It could have been a man, but it happened to be a woman. And there's lots to celebrate about her career. But she failed in the key elements of women's safety, race issues, homophobia, you name it. It's rife. And not just in the Met. So in the end, I think her position became untenable completely.

And what is your response to her going? How did you feel when you heard that news? I thought, good, it's a good decision. I think it wasn't handled. It wasn't handled well, let's put it that way. But she dug her heels in and said, you know, she took on another two years. And I think in the end, most people saw her as ineffectual.

When you were mentioning just there the missing persons report, that was referring to your case and what had gone on with that. It was a look at that by the watchdog, the police watchdog. And you were talking about the fact that it wasn't filed for your daughters on time and there were errors there, just in case people were not aware.

Yeah, awful errors. And, you know, that investigation I don't think was concluded in the best of ways. She hadn't apologised. She said she had apologised, but she actually hadn't. But the crux for me was finding out, you know, the more recent report that began in 2017 about Charing Cross. Yes, just to remind our listeners again, because we did cover this.

It was out just two weeks ago from the Independent Office for Police Officers, Police Conduct, excuse Conduct found officers in the Charing Cross police station, some of them to have joked about rape and exchanged racist and highly abusive messages. And that led to some recommendations from the police watchdog. But in its report, the IOPC said, we believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few bad apples. And I did think of you that day when that came out. And I wonder what those moments are like for you. You know, I'm pleased that people thought I was being overly emotional and criticising the police on an isolated incident.

But my instincts told me that that just wasn't the case. Now, if you remember, the photographs of our girls were taken in 2020. And Cressida Dick was on record and said, if this is true true it's appalling blah blah um she knew she already knew that there was a an investigation going on we didn't know um started in 2017 about whatsapp groups so she would have known that this wasn't an isolated incident. I didn't expect her to kind of throw herself or the Met under the bus, but to behave in a way that sounds as though this is incredible. We've never heard of anything like this in our lives.

It was a lie. And so it took the IOPC five years to discover what myself and my family knew to be the truth in six months. For me, I'd already said because of the missing person she needed to go. But when this report came out I thought you knew when our story had come out she that's when she should have drilled down and insisted that all whatsapp groups were not going to allow it you have your own private phones, you have a work phone, but, you know, it's a disciplinary act if you are seen to be using your phone in this particular way. And I should say, if I may, Mina, at this point, for the Charing Cross incident, the Met Police did apologise and there are those recommendations. There was an apology in the end to yourself and to your family but it came at the end of last year after they pleaded guilty the two individuals. And it actually she apologised in the recommendations for the missing persons it said in the report we feel that the Met owes the family an apology.

And that was another blow because I thought, who needs to be told to apologise? The position from those who want to protect the establishment is, well, no, our police officers, they are working. Of course they are. And you've had very good relationships with some police officers, which you've been at pains. When you last came on Women's Hour, I remember you saying that to me and you were at pains to say so,

because lots of our listeners work in the police. Yes. And I've got nieces in the police force and friends in the police force. And I know exactly the good job that they do. But, you know, I don't, when I have a service from someone, I don't feel I should be surprised by someone doing their job well. And that's the minimum.

It sounds like you personally, you feel from this personal perspective as well, this awful personal perspective that you've got, that Cressida Dick was in some ways, you tell me, but misleading about what had happened with you, knowing what she also knew about these WhatsApp messages that were being investigated. Exactly.

So you do feel Cressida did mislead you? I think she was smokescreening. In allowing this kind of behaviour to go unpunished, it proliferates. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. I'm comfortable speaking out about this. I happen to be someone who, you know, speaking out has been part of my role. But so many other people don't feel able to do that. I mean, we've not heard from Sarah Everard's family. They're doing what most people do when they've had tragic circumstances.

So no judgment there. But most people, when they're traumatised in this way, you turn in on yourself. You know, a lot of our listeners care greatly about you. I'm noticing some of the messages that are coming in and saying, you know, for instance, Barbara says, sending best wishes to Mina, who speaks with such grace and dignity in the face of such an awful tragedy

compounded by the actions of some of the metropolitan police. You know, how are you doing day to day? And, you know, how are you kind of getting through at the moment? I know you used to, for instance, love a bit of gardening or, you know, finding yourself in nature a bit. But how is it at the moment for you, Mina? It's not great. I don't go out much. I tend to stay in.

And the funny thing was that I gained inner strength from talking it out. And I was deliberately seeking times where I withdrew because I didn't want to be in denial and just, you know, cover up doing this activism business. And I am having counselling. I need it. I've got PTSD and I have panic attacks and, you know, I'm being completely open with people. So it's not how I come across on the television or the radio in my day-to-day life, this has impacted me. Normally, my front garden would have spring plants in it and it's looking a bit sad at the moment, and we've done a bit of tidying up at the back.

But my counsellor said to me, you know, I was dividing my personality. I said, look, I think I may have actually said it on the television. There's Mina, the mum, who is broken. Then there is Mina, the activist, who gives me purpose. And she said to me, why are you separating them both? Because they're both you. And she said, how do you feel when you're not doing something? I said, that's the time when I allow myself to grieve. And so she said, so basically,

when you're not doing this, you're depressed. And I hadn't really thought of that. She said, so you're accepting depression and going into gloom and darkness. She said, do you think that's the right thing to do? I said, no, actually, I hadn't thought of that. I just thought it was a necessary thing I needed to do as part of the grieving process. So I don't do that now. Mina Smallman there. And we do have a statement from the Met in response to Mina's interview. They say, we have apologised wholeheartedly to Biba and Nicole's family for the actions of PCs Jaffa and Lewis. The Commissioner has asked Baroness Louise Casey to lead an independent and far-reaching review into our culture and standards of professional and personal

behaviour, which will ask difficult questions to ensure there are lasting improvements to the service we provide for all Londoners. Now, you've probably heard of a health and safety officer or an equality and diversity officer, but should we have someone looking out for family planning at work? Emma spoke to lawyer Natalie Sutherland, who has just become one of Britain's first fertility officers, and Becky Kearns, co-founder of Fertility Matters at Work. Natalie began by telling us exactly what a fertility officer is. A fertility officer is a position that we've created at the firm to signal to our staff that not only do we support them in their career

building aspirations but we recognise that you have lives outside of work, that you may want to create families and we support that too because there's always this worry, especially in the legal profession, that if you acknowledge that you perhaps want to try and have a child that this might affect your career so having the position from the very beginning signals I hope to our junior staff that we support them in both endeavours. I want to question that and how it will be accessed and all of that but your personal route to that it leads you to having this connection doesn't it what was your story of trying to have a family so i had um i was actually very lucky in having a child um easily to begin with but um but i had a miscarriage unfortunately and then have had

secondary infertility since then so uh so i come to it from a personal experience that I hope will help with the role in terms of being able to be empathetic and understanding. But also as a fertility law and surrogacy specialist solicitor, I have access or experience of my clients who go through a similar thing. So it was a natural step that I would take up this position. Why do you think people, and especially women, would want to come and have this conversation? And I'm saying this mindful of the fact you've just said where you work has this specialism in family law. Of course, there will be many lawyers,

and many non-lawyers listening as well, but many lawyers who don't work anywhere near that part of practice and the last thing they would want to do There are many non-lawyers listening as well, but many lawyers who don't work anywhere near that part of practice. And the last thing they would want to do is go and talk to somebody at work about trying for a baby. I totally agree that it is a private matter and that this is not compulsory. It's not there for you to say, right, the minute you're thinking of trying for a baby or if you have fertility issues, you have to come speak to us. The point of the role is to signal from the outset that we're here if you have fertility issues you have to come speak to us. The point of the role is to signal from the outset that we're here if you need help because what I found anecdotally with other lawyers and I've had a lot of people come up to me after we threw an event called Infertility

in the City in December to raise this issue is that they experience this problem with not being able to tell their employer and having that position that tells you the staff that you work for an employer that will understand and will help I think that takes away or at least helps to take away the stigma that infertility issues often has so it's about it's about those who are struggling with fertility and or miscarriage, you would say, potentially. Primarily, yeah. You're this one role, but I might not work for you. I might have to work for that woman or that man over there in the different part of the office who may then look at me

and think, well, she's not very ambitious. Having a child or deciding to have a family, you can have a career and be a working parent and still have those aspirations. You're preaching to the converted. You are on Woman's Hour. You're talking to me. I hope that I'm the converted. You know, I'm back at work, you know, having fought to have that baby. And, you know, just from my own perspective, if I may be as bold to share it, you know, when having IVF, I did everything in the world to hide it. It's very difficult to hide it.

I was on the election trail. I didn't tell anyone why I needed a fridge for injections I mean that it was actually because I do think it's very private and I found work an escape I recognize that's personal but I didn't want anybody to to know because also I didn't think it was going to work you know there's there's a lot bound up in it Becky a good point to bring you in right now, because we are getting a range of messages on this. Do you support the idea of Natalie's role, a fertility officer? Yes. So we at Fertility Matters at Work, the three of us who have co-founded this initiative, and we all have our own personal experience of going through fertility treatment and miscarriage. And we're now working really hard to try and educate employers about this issue that isn't really spoken about.

And that people, like you say, go through in silence and try to hide, giving people the permission to have these conversations at work, particularly when they're going to need time off for treatments, like you say, and they're hiding medication in the fridge. All of these different things and the emotional impact that it has on individuals as well as they go through this. You know, I know I was being quite muscular there. That's often how I am in positioning things, I suppose. But, you know, I'm reading this message and, you know, I do know from personal experience how incredibly difficult IVF is and how you feel a lot of the time on it, as well as the hope and the false hope. And I've got a message here saying, when I needed IVF, my employer didn't have a policy. So I ended up having to speak directly to my manager

about the time off I would need. It's such a deeply sensitive issue and it was one of the most difficult conversations of my life. I would really have appreciated some neutral or someone neutral and confidential to discuss what my rights were and how best to combine the treatment and my work. Becky, I do want to hear about your story, but actually your background is in HR. And rights wise, is it right that I read, you tell me otherwise, that if you

need fertility treatment, it's in some HR, some companies HR policies that it's in the same part or it's listed as a similar category as cosmetic surgery? Yes. So through our research, we found we have an Instagram community of thousands of people and they share with us what they're going through. And one of the ones that really struck me was the fact that it was hidden within a policy in the same line as if you need IVF or elective cosmetic surgery, you will need to take annual leave or take appointments outside of work time. And that is, I think, one of the huge misconceptions that we find about this when people go through it, that it's a lifestyle choice and not a medical issue. But beyond the listening ear, do you actually have rights? For instance, if you need some time off

and you don't wish to have to take it as annual leave because it is a medical treatment with assisted conception, are you allowed to do that? Or is it down to individuals' HR policies? It's down to individual HR policies. There's currently no statutory right for time off or appointments relating to fertility treatment. So there is no protection for people, which is another reason why people feel scared to to talk about this because it's one thing i mean i've discussed before it's one of the most terrifying conversations to have when you say you're actually for some people going on maternity you'll need to

go off um you know for others who can't even go for the starting blocks and desperately wish to be pregnant they'd love to be having that conversation there's even worse conversation to be saying i'm going to need some time off to even try and have a baby. Because then you're saying to your boss or whoever, I am going to also try and be off at some point, which all of which paints a picture you don't necessarily want painted about you. I will go back to Natalie in just a moment. But Becky, you had an incredibly difficult journey to get to this point and ended up having to take a different course in your own career because of how difficult it was for you to build your family yes um so actually I was diagnosed with early menopause when I was in my late 20s and at that point in time hadn't really been thinking that a family would be in within the next year or two um but having had that diagnosis I was suddenly told if you don't do IVF, you may never have the opportunity to be a mum.

And so I had the conversation with my employer. I'm a very open person. And for me, that was the right thing for me. But it was the most terrifying conversation I've ever had to have because I felt like I was starting a new job. And then I was going to say, well, actually, I'm going to need time off for this. And inevitably, the assumption is made that you'll be going off on maternity leave I think that's another misconception when it comes to IVF that it guarantees a baby when actually it just gives people a chance of a baby as well but I subsequently went through five IVF cycles and a miscarriage as well as part of that and I remember while I was

I was off for the miscarriage and it was a long, drawn out process. Can I just say how sorry I am for that? Yeah, it was a long process. And I remember thinking to myself at the time, Becky, why are you struggling with this? Just pull yourself together. Why can you not cope with this? And I was thinking about my time in HR and I'd never had anybody ever come to me to ask for time off for fertility treatment or to talk about a miscarriage. And I thought I felt like I was the only one going through it.

And it's only now I advocate and talk about this. I realize that there's so many people going through this. And eventually I built my family through egg donation. So we had to take a very different path to what we originally thought. And I'm now a mom to three girls. But there are one in seven individuals out there in the UK who are going through a difficult journey to build their family.

Yeah, and of course, we've also heard, just this is a separate conversation, but it's related, you know, of campaigns in the LGBT community about the fact that they always have to use some form of assistance. And that in itself is something to help, hopefully, perhaps change this conversation and make it more mainstream

and less shrouded in silence, as not least, of course, the highly prohibitive costs, we should say. But I think there is just such nervousness about how you will be perceived. I know that, Becky, you want to sign up companies to try and to think about this in some way, being aware of fertility and having to build your family, not just, you know, going to bed with a partner and therefore it happens, and that actually being quite a lot of work on the side of your job. Have any of the big names signed up? Are you able to tell us? We have actually

signed up Selfridges. So they have just joined us to try and become fertility us? We have actually signed up Selfridges so they have just joined us to try and become fertility friendly we have a few more in the pipeline but we're not allowed to say who they are just yet The NHS, the BBC asking for a friend Not on the radar at the moment but we are having conversations

one of our co-founders Claire actually worked in the NHS You'd sort of hope I mean I don't want to put words into their mouth but you'd sort of hope where babies are born might also be a place of this sort of hope i mean i don't want to put words into that they're not but you sort of hope where babies are born might might also be a place of um this sort of friendliness you would hope and we actually hear a lot of stories from the nhs where people find it incredibly

difficult we hear from people in a range of different sectors and male dominated industries and and pharma travel and hospitality and it's an issue across the board and i think like you said earlier it well all of these people going through this are of working age and they're in employment it's about workplaces realizing that this is a life event that many people go through and that to support them means that they can help with their employee engagement attraction and retaining that talent and we held a survey back in 2020 and we found that 36% of people had considered leaving their role because of the balance of this and having to juggle it and the strain that it was putting on them. And I was one of them. I remember, I think, IVF cycle number four saying to my boss,

I just can't do this. I think I need to take a career break. And well, I made an adjustment to my role. I took a sideways move into a role outside of the development pipeline. So currently, I was in the succession pipeline. It took a sideways role to take the pressure off and I reduced my hours to four days a week. And that allowed me to stay in employment whilst I was going through this. And that was to help me cope emotionally. But also, I was making these decisions whilst really vulnerable and also worried about the financial aspect as well, because you pay thousands when you're going through this. Natalie Sutherland and Becky Kearns there. Next, during lockdown, Woman's Hour listener, full-time carer and former history teacher Joanna Williams sat down at her kitchen table

and wrote the biography of the great Miss Lydia Becker. She thought the world needed to know about the 19th century Manchester suffragist beyond the few lines she had found in a textbook. She told Emma how she first heard about Lydia whilst teaching history. It was actually during a Year 9 lesson, quite a long time ago now, I used to teach about women's suffrage to Year 9.

And yeah, so there was a photograph and a couple of lines underneath it. And I remembered it. I don't know why really, because it was a photograph and a couple of lines underneath it and and I remembered it I don't know why really because it was a very minor part of what we were doing and we were looking mainly at Emmeline Pankhurst and so on later on I was teaching sixth formers about pre-first world war Britain and we did a section on the suffragists and they were very enthusiastic and interested in it and I think that kind of enthused me about it as well. When after I retired, my husband, shortly after I retired, had a stroke and I became a full time carer.

And I started doing research into various things, actually. But settled finally in 2017 on doing something serious on Lydia Becker, because the more I read about her, the more I realised that actually she was a really important national figure. And I thought she deserved a biography. And I also realised when I was reading around that actually she was the only early women's suffrage leader who didn't have her own biography. So I thought there was a bit of a gap there. So I decided to fill it. You decided to fill it. The lockdown came along and it was an absolute godsend because being a carer on your own my husband can't speak so I was kind of like really isolated but sitting at the kitchen table working away on this was um really helpful to keep my sanity

let's come back to that in a moment because I definitely want to also hear about that and on the personal front but with regards to Lydia, you're right, she's not a name that springs to mind when you think of the history of that period and women campaigning for the vote. And yet it was she who inspired, in part, Emmeline Pankhurst. Yes, that's right. Emmeline was quite a lot younger. And when Emmeline was 14, her mother, she came back from her school, her mother took her to a women's suffrage meeting at which Lydia Becker spoke. And she, in her own autobiography, says that after this hearing Lydia Becker speak, she was a confirmed suffragist. It inspired her to think along those lines as well. And in fact, she also mentions in the autobiography that her mother took the Women's Suffrage Journal, which was a newspaper started by Lydia Becker, edited by her.

She was the chief contributor and she also funded this as well, to a large extent. So, you know, she was getting her influence into their home in that way as well. And how did she lay the groundwork for women getting the vote? Because she did die before it was achieved. Yes, well before. She died in 1890. And I mean, the suffragettes weren't even started till 1903. So it was quite a while before. And it wasn't just her. She was working with a group of other people, but she was the mover and shaker. She was pushing all the other societies in London and Birmingham and Edinburgh and Bristol

to follow her lead and adopt campaigns that she'd suggested and other methods. Her main importance, really, looking at the big picture, but her main importance was to move the attitudes both of society and Parliament towards the idea that women should have full rights of citizenship, really, the right to vote in general elections. In Parliament in particular, in the 1880s, she was the chief lobbyist of the women's suffrage movement. She engaged with the MPs. She was in deputations to visit ministers and so on. She was very, very hands-on with Parliament. And she was considered to be their expert on parliamentary procedure and so on. I'm learning from you and your work, she addressed male and female crowds, which was unusual.

In the 1860s and 70s, that was considered to be almost immoral for a woman to stand up in front of a mixed group of people, men and women. She did, she travelled all over the countries addressing meetings. And at the beginning, they were packed out because the idea of going to see a woman making a speech was such a bizarre thought to most people and she had huge audiences just to come and see this strange woman and they were expecting to see somebody very manly and ill-dressed and you know not a proper feminine lady at all so to her it was really important to give the right image and she always took great care with her self-presentation and how she dressed and the women's suffrage meetings generally when they had women on the platform they put the pretty

ones at the front the well-dressed ones at the front so that you can give the right impression and she she had she actually paid a couple of working class women who were good at speaking to go around and address working class audiences I think she realized that you know she was very middle class and maybe it wouldn't appeal in the same way. Well, that's also very savvy in terms of getting your message across and getting more people on board and being representative. And I think what also comes across, which is maybe it was ever thus, but is a bit disappointing from your work,

is that women of the suffrage movement were not always very supportive of each other. For instance, Sylvia Pankhurst was quite dismissive of Lydia Becker. Is that right? Yes, sadly. Sylvia said that she wasn't a good orator and wasn't very clever, basically. And I think that was really unfair. But I think there was a general tendency to sort of dismiss the earlier campaign as a failure because they didn't get women the vote. But I think you have to look at it as this kind of a building block. I mean, certainly by 1890, from the attitudes in 1860,

where it was ridiculed in Parliament and they compared giving women the vote to teaching dogs to dance, by 1890, it was being seriously discussed in Parliament. And many people were of the view in Parliament that it was a question of when women would get the vote rather than if. So I think they did achieve a huge amount. Woman's Hour listener and author Joanna Williams there. And remember, if you have any interesting hobbies or great stories to share, please get in touch with us via our website.

We love to hear from you and we might even be able to get you on the programme. Still to come on the programme, we discuss the settlement between Prince Andrew and Virginia Giuffre and baby names. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website.

The government has announced that children aged between 5 and 11 in all four nations of the UK are to be offered a low dose of the Covid vaccine to prevent, I quote, a very small number of children from serious illness and hospitalisation in a future wave of Covid. I spoke to Naomi Grimley, BBC Global Health correspondent, and Dr Elizabeth Mann, an immunologist at the Lydia Becker Institute at the University of Manchester, who started off telling me about which type of vaccine kids will get. The vaccine that's being given to children in this age group, the five to 11, it's the Pfizer vaccine, the mRNA vaccine. So I think, as you said, it's the risk and the benefit ratio. And

as you say, it's something that regards thinking about because most children do get mild disease, most children don't mild disease most children don't get particularly sick but some do and there have been children that have died there's 25 children that died in the first year of the pandemic six of those didn't have any underlying health conditions so the vaccinations are really to protect those children although it's unlikely they're going to get severely ill and die, it's to protect those that might do. The dose is lower, as you say, because children do have a very good immune response. It's better than it is in adults. And that's why they don't get as sick as adults.

But it means that they'll be able to mount a really good, strong, protective response with a lower dose of the vaccine. There's been early work that's been done by Pfizer with thousands of children that have looked at how they respond to this low dose and the safety data. And it looks like they do actually get milder side effects from the vaccine, even to the higher age group, that's 16 to 25. They get less severe symptoms, so the headaches, the fevers, the fatigue, and fewer of them actually get side effects. So it looks like this initial safety data is very promising. Let me cross to Naomi Grimley, our health correspondent, because we are going to unpick much of what Dr Mann has said there about it being rolled out here in the UK. But of course, we are not the first country around the world to be grappling with this, to be having these conversations. In many places around the world, the vaccine rollout for young people has already started.

Britain is pretty late to the party on this because most countries in Western Europe and North America have been vaccinating the 5 to 11-year-olds since December and certainly throughout January. So one of the questions is, why is the UK deciding to do this much later than other countries? But there are exceptions. Sweden, for example, looked at the evidence and they weren't convinced that the benefits outweighed the risks. So they've decided

not to do it and assuming instead that children will gain immunity through natural infection. Some countries are going further, though. China, Cuba, UAE. These are countries which are actually vaccinating the under fives, too. And indeed, the Pfizer pharmaceutical company is now looking at a vaccine which it hopes to get approval for in the US for those from the age two upwards. I understand that some of those children receiving the vaccine are as young as three years old. To many, that may seem extremely young. Yeah, well, this is one of the things that you get if you talk to parents. We did some interviews outside a school gate in the West Midlands yesterday. And there are concerns from parents about whether it's too young. I guess experts would counter that by saying, well,

A, we have this massive body of global evidence now about how these vaccines have been used around the world to vaccinate so many small people. And also they would argue that, of course, there are all kinds of childhood vaccinations that we don't think twice about getting in normal times. We were talking about the dosage there. You were saying that it's only a fraction of the adult dose that young children would be getting. Does that mean that they'll need a second shot sooner? No. So with the rationale between giving the children a smaller dose is they've got very, very good immune systems. They're much more robust immunologically than adults. And that's why they don't get as sick when they actually get

COVID. But it means that when they're given the vaccine, they'll generate a very, very good protective response. They don't need as much. So they won't need more boosters than you'd be having as an adult. They'll actually generate very good immunity. And actually, evidence suggests that they'll generate longer sustained immunity. So the actual beneficial effects versus adults will potentially be better and longer lasting, which will obviously impact on schools and things. And one of the key points here is wanting to protect children against the next waves that come. So we know that, you know, this isn't the end after Omicron, we're going to be getting more waves of COVID. Hopefully the next wave will be as mild as COVID is, but it might not be. And it's that protection against further reinfection if you vaccinate, especially if you've had a previous infection, that gives you very, very, very good protection.

There is anxiety around this. What sort of an uptake are you as a medical professional expecting here? Yeah that's a really good question it's something we were talking about the other day and I think they there's lots of different angles here and there's lots of different types of benefits there's obviously the benefit to children themselves and as I've said the protection against the next wave that comes along on a bigger picture there's that just getting back into a normal routine not having to be off school all the time, parents not having to stay off work all the time. And I think I'm hoping that that's something will increase uptake as well as the actual health benefit. It's a huge benefit to children to not be off school and to keep getting

this disruption to their development and their learning. There's also evidence now that children can get long COVID, which isn't a huge surprise. You know, children get glandular fever, for example, after other viral infections. And these effects of fatigue and long running post viral things can last months. We don't know if they can even last years. And all these things can be so disruptive to learning and development. There's that aspect of things which I think will mean there is a good uptake in this country, but it's just very, very difficult to know, to be honest. If we look at data from the States, for example, started off very strong with vaccinating 5 to 11s and then it really dropped off and it's come in peaks and troughs. So it's very hard to say.

Global side effects in terms of what we have seen in other countries. There's been lots of concerns about conditions like myocarditis. What have we seen in terms of real data globally when it comes to side effects and children taking the jab? Yeah, well, the government advisors here in the UK were very clear yesterday that the risk of myocarditis, which is this inflammation of the heart, is very rare and rarer than it is for children to be hospitalized with COVID. And that's precisely why they've made the decision that they have. What's interesting is that mild side effects, as Lizzie said, do happen. So, for example, if you look at the US, around 10 percent of kids had to take a day off school after their vaccination because they were feeling

flu-y or miserable as some adults have done. Now that interestingly was taken into account by the UK advisors here because obviously that means school absences too. So when you're weighing up these things you have to think about mild side effects and what that means for children losing out on classroom time. But as regards myocarditis, they seem very less worried about that. And that's why they decided to make this decision in line with most developed countries now. Naomi Grimley and Dr. Elizabeth Mann. On to our next story. Prince Andrew has reached an out-of-court settlement with Virginia Giuffre, who had accused him of sexually assaulting her when she was 17.

The Duke of York told the BBC in 2019 that he had never met Miss Giuffre and had vowed to fight the allegations in court, but he's now agreed to pay an unknown sum to her and her charity, which helps victims of abuse. Prince Andrew has always denied the allegations and has not admitted any liability. Emma spoke to Georgina Calvert-Lee, unemployment and equality lawyer at Macalester, Olivarius, and an expert on non-disclosure agreements and settlements, as well as the Labour MP Jess Phillips, who was Labour's shadow minister for domestic violence and safeguarding. Georgina started off by explaining what this settlement could mean for Virginia Geoffray. I think it can be seen as a great win for Virginia Geoffray, although I don't really like to even use the term win,

because the great thing about settlements for victims is, sure, they don't get vindication in a court of law, but we all know how especially the criminal justice system and also the civil justice system let down victims of sexual violence. So there's no guarantee she would not also have been let down, and I don't think we should put it on her shoulders to try and fix the system by testing it out in her case. This settlement, however, has given her back the reins of some control over her future. So I think she should feel very happy with the outcome. And yet there's not an admission of guilt from Prince Andrew, because the settlement is an agreement, as you've said, that both come to. Was that a surprise to you? It's not a surprise because that's usually the one thing that the defendant will not want to give up.

There would be many ongoing legal repercussions for Prince Andrew had he admitted guilt. The criminal justice system is still out there. He can still be prosecuted for crimes. And if he'd admitted guilt, he would lay himself wide open to that. But he has changed his tone significantly. So he has yielded. And in settlement, both parties have to yield. And in some ways, I think it goes beyond the paradigm of winner and loser, the person who dominates and controls and the person who is victimised, to give both parties a better chance at a future. Because I think even defendants should have a chance to rehabilitate themselves.

You say he has yielded. Just to go back to that statement that was supplied to the judge, it is the first time that he has expressed regret of his association with Jeffrey Epstein. And also there is a line saying he accepts that Virginia Dufresne has suffered both as an established victim of abuse and as a result of unfair public attacks. And it's been noted in some of the commentary today by some of the reporters covering this, this is a big change of tack in terms of those unfair public attacks because the way that his lawyers had been positioning Virginia Dufresne and trying to attack her in terms of their defence of Prince Andrew

had in fact been the source of some of those attacks. He and his lawyers have taken a very pre-me too strategy to this litigation, which has been very disappointing for many onlookers. They've taken a scorched earth policy, essentially, in trying to have her claims kicked out at every juncture. I think he should have been moving towards a settlement table right from the get go. So he's lost a lot and he has only himself and his lawyers to blame for that. I mean, if I could give an example here, you know, only a few weeks ago, and this is in one of the reports by Guy Adams in the Daily Mail, it's saying the Prince's lawyers were attempting to persuade a judge that an old newspaper article that dubbed Virginia Dufresne as a money hungry

sex kitten ought to be used as evidence in court. And I just wonder, when you do have a settlement like this that lays down this statement the way it does, does it go, does it change the view of people? If you've already had those sorts of attacks out there, has the harm already been done? Again, if we're trying to look at justice and how this might feel from her position this morning? I think the change of tone goes some way towards redressing it.

But I do hope that the settlement terms do take into account the extra harm that's been heaped upon her by the way Prince Andrew and his lawyers have conducted themselves during the litigation. And when you say the settlement terms, do you mean the amount of money? Yes. I think we should get to that because culturally, I've discovered this before on this programme, there is a difference in the UK to the way money is viewed and the way it's viewed in America. And in America, you tell me more, it's often viewed as justice. We have a justice system where the only currency of redress is money. That's not the victim's fault. That's not anyone's fault. I have many clients who are also victims of sexual violence. None of them

would rather have money than to go back to a situation where they had not been subjected to violence. That's absolutely universal. But unfortunately, money is the only, and I must say very sorry, stand-in for being left intact and not subjected to violence. And the amount of money hasn't been disclosed, we should say. There are reports swirling around this and also about how it's been funded with reports, certainly on the front page of The Telegraph this morning, saying Her Majesty the Queen in part will be funding this. We won't know any of the details do you expect on this or will it come to light? Well, I suspect that it may be leaked. I mean, it doesn't have to be kept quiet. I'm a firm believer in not having NDAs in these types of

agreements. I don't think there's any shame in money. As I said, that's the only way of trying to address harm. People need to get therapy. They need to put their life on track. We may find out. I suspect, given the rather old-fashioned way in which Prince Andrew's lawyers have been conducting his defence, I suspect they will, in the old-fashioned way, want to have an NDA over the settlement terms too. Yes, well, we'll see, I suppose, on that front. But just another legal question before bringing my next guest. You mentioned there an NDA.

You're not a fan of those. And we've also explored that with you previously. But do you worry that there has been an NDA in this instance? How will we know? Because, of course, is this the end of the case or can she speak out again? Those sorts of questions are swirling around as well. Well, there's a lot of evidence that gagging a victim from speaking out about what has happened to them causes them long term harm.

So I hope that she hasn't been gagged about what happened to her in the past. I gather from the fact they haven't told the judge the financial terms of the settlement. There's some clause in the statement that suggests that they might be keeping those private. At a minimum, I mean, if you're going to have an NDA, then I suppose not saying the amount is okay because that is something that Ms. Jafray may also want to keep private. It's her own business.

But I very much hope that she is not being gagged from talking about her past experiences. The charity is also set to receive the charities called Saw that she set up. It was formerly known as Victims Refuse Silence, set up in 2015. I should say we contacted that charity, the charity, this morning to see if we could speak to them. We're still very keen to do so, to hear, of course, what the plan is with the money and how it will be. But again, that's a part of this settlement that has been made much of. Georgina, stay with me for now. Let me now cross to the Labour MP, Jess Phillips, who is Labour's Shadow Minister for Domestic

Violence and Safeguarding. Good morning. Part of this statement, again, to go back to it, is right at the end, Prince Andrew has pledged to, by demonstrating his regret for association with Jeffrey Epstein, by supporting the fight against the evils of sex trafficking and by supporting its victims. What do you make of that, both in your position politically, but also, I know, as someone who has worked with vulnerable women? Based on the way that, as you've already discussed, his lawyers treated Virginia Giuffre throughout the process, the sudden change of tone is an absolute victory for Virginia Giuffre. But excuse me, as somebody who works in the field, if I don't find it particularly convincing and it's going to take a huge amount of effort and I think it will be incredibly hard for Prince Andrew to make that effort because people like me and those who work in sexual violence services, human trafficking services are certainly not going to have open arms to his allyship. And I don't know how exactly he is going to display. He says that he will work to sort of prove his remorse in this case.

I don't know how he could possibly do that. And even if it was just finances. Now, the money that will go to victims of trafficking from this settlement is Virginia Dufresne's money, not Prince Andrew making a donation to this charity, which, of course, as a very wealthy man, he could have done at any point in his life prior to this. But I have to say that, you know, when I worked in rape crisis services and any charity, in fact, there is a matter of ethics about who you will and won't take money off. For example, if you work for a lung cancer charity, you won't be taking money off cigarette companies, as an example. I think even just financial resource in this instance would not be particularly welcomed. And it's going to take a huge amount of effort on Prince Andrew's behalf to ever bridge that particular gap.

I mean, he has always denied the allegations. He hasn't admitted any liability. So perhaps some listening will think the comparison to, you know, a lung charity taking money from a smoking tobacco industry is not quite there. But I suppose what you're saying is, how is he going to make these efforts and how will those be welcomed? Also, you're absolutely right. His guilt with regard to the accusations made by Virginia Giuffre

has not been proven in court, without question. However, what he is guilty of and what his legal team is guilty of is falling for every basic victim-blaming trick in the book. And his guilt in that is written into court documents it has been written about in the newspapers he basically undermined every argument that people in the sexual violence sector have been trying to undo he lent on every myth and stereotype about rape victims to the point where even trying to accuse Virginia Giuffresne of criminality, it was so awful to watch, not only undermining Virginia Dufresne, but also undermining all previous child victims of historic

abuse in the US to try and argue in the case that the statute of limitations should apply in the case. And that would have affected all child victims of sexual, historic child sexual abuse. From the beginning, I think Georgina is absolutely right. There was a path that Prince Andrew could have taken without suggesting his guilt. He has not, in the past three, four years, however long this case has been going on,

shown any sign of remorse or dignity of his position or of the undermining of the dreadful things that get said about sexual violence victims. Jess Phillips and Georgina Calvert-Lee there. On to a story that caught our attention. One mother in the US, Elizabeth Leslie Edwards, was left shocked when she told her nurse one of her twin daughter's names, only to be laughed at for it. She posted a video to her TikTok account, which went viral with over one million views. I spoke to SJ Stram, who has a YouTube channel and blog where she offers advice on baby naming, and asked whether she was surprised by the nurse's reaction.

I wasn't. There is so much online at the moment around backlash about these unique baby names, which is a real trend with younger women and parents wanting to really give their child a name that really stands out. There's such a push towards individualism, but yet there's still the old school generational feeling that it's okay to comment on someone's baby name, that it's okay to comment on someone's baby name,

that it's okay to judge it rather than accepting, you know, times have changed. We're not all Johns, Marks, Marys and Sus anymore. We're honeybees. You're an SG and I'm a crooper. Exactly, exactly. I mean, I've just spotted a comment in relation to what you've just had to say there about the generational difference. Trevor's been in relation to what you've just had to say there about the generational difference Trevor's been in touch to write when I called my mum from the maternity ward to announce that she

had a grandson called Harvey she laughed out loud and said what is he a giant white rabbit I mean it's very tricky SJ when it's your when it's your parents it's it's a delicate relationship they're very happy to have a grandchild you You're delighted to have your newborn. I mean, how do you navigate that sensitive dynamic? It's absolutely huge. And I started our podcast, Baby Name Envy, as a consultancy for helping people navigate these family dramas that come from baby names. And it's often because we ask our parents what do you think of the name and they go oh no never and so that we really take it to heart you know it's such a sensitive time when you're about to have a baby and it's so important to you and everyone to love the name because it's your

first kind of choice as a parent that people know about so it's packed full of emotion and sometimes as you say it's packed full of emotion for the grandparents or they have a particular name in mind. They weren't passed down through the family. And we have to think about how baby names were very much that. They were passed down from generation to generation. And it's getting to the last couple of generations where we're sort of going, you know what? We're marrying around the world much more, much more blended cultures, blended families, different influences on us beyond, you know, the royals and the Bible, which is where we used to get our baby names. Now it's more Netflix and Kardashians. And we're going a bit more braver with our name choices. And it's just that boom now that people need to start to understand that as much as you wouldn't laugh at how a child looks you can't laugh at their name you can't judge it it might not be your choice but it's somebody's very thought out and important

choice if you don't like the name find something you do like about it it's what I always say so it could be that name looks really special how did you come up with it use some tact because what you say in that moment is the is going to stay with those parents forever yes absolutely i'm going to read you a few more messages that i've had in when we named our first son cornelius the nurse said you can't call him that and when we called the second one finn his grandma wouldn't use his name just referred to him as the baby until my husband got across to her I'm sure you've heard about experiences like that another one here we named our six-month-old daughter Aniva last year it's been met with a mix of that's beautiful or is that actually a name with lots of people ignoring the a and just calling it by her name that they know Neve it's just a name just a pretty

unusual one it's it's very, very, very tricky. What would be one piece of advice you would share with parents who are worried about family members, members of their community not being convinced by the name? Yeah, I say don't share. Don't share it with anybody. That's a tricky one. Yeah, don't tell people before,

because once they're holding the baby in their arms it's a very bold person who's going to say i hate the name um you know you love that baby for who they are and what they look like um so don't share as much as possible or share with a very small trusted group we do anonymous polls and things like that so people can get a real test useful and yeah we do and we get hundreds um and we put you know this name or that name what do you really think of the spelling unusual spellings are mostly what trip people up um and that cause issues later on with teachers and things but actually teachers say um we don't mind unique names what we don't love so much is unique spellings

of traditional names so that trips people up a bit more and then we also talk about the Starbucks test so you can go into a coffee shop they say what's your name say it out loud because I love the name say Persephone but was I going to tell him Persephone was my name or was I going to be mortified how do they spell it on the on the cup you know all those little tests you can do and then I also say look at your partner so I love unique names but my husband is called Henrik and he's very straight-laced Swedish guy and I thought could he really be called Fox I'm not sure. SJ Strom there lots of emails from you on this Jane says Bodicea is the new arrival of our neighbours and the brother is Merlin.

Leah emailed to say, we named our daughter Arianwen, which means blessed silver, a fifth century Welsh name. We've had nothing but positive reactions to it. People love it. And I feel a lovely warm glow every time I get a loving reaction to her name. And Laura says most of my favoured baby names were taken by cats. That's all from me. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend. And remember, you can catch up with all of our programmes over at BBC Sounds. Emma will be back with you on Monday at 10, hearing all about a new exhibition at the Royal Academy on Joanna Hitherman, the muse to painter James Whistler. Thanks for listening.

Hello there. This is Marian Keyes. And I'm Tara Flynn. And together we present a brand new podcast for BBC Radio 4 called Now You're Asking. In each episode we make your problems our problems. Try to make molehills from your mountains. We read your emails, listen to your woes, and do our best to help. And hopefully we can help some other people along the way. For example, do you suffer from resting bitchface in the workplace?

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Laughs. Lies. Life. And death. Search up Now You're not talking about eyelashes? No. Grant. So join us for love, laughs, lies, life and death. Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.