Woman's Hour - Minette Walters, Menopause supplement adverts, Blake Lively

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Bestselling author Minette Walters shot to fame in the 1990s with her award-winning gritty crime novels The Ice House, The Sculptress and The Scold’s Bridle. She continued to write successful crime fiction for over twenty years until, inspired by a plague pit, Minette changed tack in 2017 and began to write historical novels. She joins Krupa Padhy to discuss her new novel The Players.Struggling with menopause symptoms? Social media is full of ads promising miracle cures, but many are too good to be true. The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has banned several ads for making unsubstantiated claims about menopause relief. Krupa discusses this issue with Donna Castle from the ASA, menopause expert Dr Paula Briggs and Katrina Anderson from Mills Reeve.The summer box office hit It Ends With Us, starring Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, has taken a dramatic turn off-screen. Last week, Lively filed a legal complaint against her co-star, accusing him of sexual harassment and orchestrating a smear campaign against her. The BBC’s Yasmin Rufo tells Krupa the latest.The Gavin and Stacey finale will be on our screens on Christmas Day, BBC 1 at 9pm. Krupa speaks to our own slice of Barry Island - Linda Bailey is the tour guide of the official Gavin and Stacey Bus Tour on Barry. She runs the tour as Nessa’s second cousin - Sally from the Valleys - and they visit all the filming locations.Festive rom-coms tend to follow a comfortably predictable format - small towns covered in snow, romantic misunderstandings and a happy ending. Film critic Rhianna Dillon and journalist Kayleigh Dray join Krupa to discuss this year’s releases, whether there’s a deeper meaning behind them and the rise of the 'cinnamon roll' man.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, thank you for being with us. We have a festive line-up for you this morning. You might be going through the TV listings for the next few days, lining up the films that you want to watch during this holiday season. We'll be talking about our love for Hallmark movies. Two film critics will give us their takes on this year's offerings. If the romance, cheese and happily ever after endings draw you in,

let us know your favourites. And staying with Christmas TV, the final episode of Gavin and Stacey is out tomorrow. We're going to introduce you to Linda Bailey, also known as Sally from the Valleys who will tell us more about her work as a tour guide on the official Gavin and Stacey bus tour on Barry Island. And on

the eve of Christmas, you might be sat on the living room floor, swamped in a pile of prezzies, wrapping paper and ribbons. We want to learn from you whether your gift giving traditions have changed over time. Maybe you've stopped giving gifts to the adults in your circle and focus on the children. Maybe you opt for a secret Santa approach. Maybe you don't give any at all. Or whether it's friends, family, colleagues or neighbours, are you someone who doesn't miss a single person out?

Do text the programme. The number is 84844. All texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media, that's Twitter and Instagram, you'll find us at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website or you can send us an audio note via WhatsApp. That number is 03700 100 444.

All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. Whatever your gift-giving approach, we want to hear from you. We'll also bring you a conversation around why the Advertising Standards Authority is cracking down on ads for products that claim to fix menopause symptoms. And the author, Manette Walters, will tell us about her new book, The Players. But first, some news from the entertainment world. The 2024 summer box-office hit It Ends With Us, starring Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, has taken a dramatic turn off screen. Last week, Lively filed a legal complaint against her co-star,

accusing him of sexual harassment and orchestrating a smear campaign against her. BBC culture, arts and entertainment reporter Yasmin Rufo has been following this unfolding story and joins us now. Thanks for being with us, Yasmin. Who are the names at the center of all of this so like he said the lawsuit has been filed by blake lively who plays the main character in ends with us she's best known for her roles as serena vanderwoodson in gossip girl you might also recognize her as the wife of ryan reynolds and a very close friend of taylor swift um the

lawsuit she's filed is against a man called justin baldoni who also starred alongside her in the wife of Ryan Reynolds and a very close friend of Taylor Swift. The lawsuit she's filed is against a man called Justin Baldoni, who also starred alongside her in the film. And he was the film's director as well. So it was his production company that bought the rights to the film. And for those people that don't recognise him, he's another big Hollywood actor and has starred in shows like Jane the Virgin. In terms of the film and what it's about, well, it's based on a book by Colleen Hoover, like you mentioned, and it sees Blake Lively play a woman called Lily, a florist in Boston, who navigates a somewhat complex and complicated love triangle between her charming yet abusive boyfriend, Ryle, which is played by Baldoni, and her compassionate first love, Atlas, which is acted by Brendan Sclenner. That's a good summary. What are the specific allegations that Blake Lively has cited in her legal complaint? Well, there's quite a lot that she alleges here in the legal complaint. Firstly, like you said, she's accused Justin Baldoni and the CEO of the production company,

Jamie Heath, of repeated sexual harassment and other disturbing behaviour. So in the complaint, she basically said that she called a meeting in January to address the hostile work environment on set. And in that meeting, she put forward a list of around 30 demands that had to be met for her to carry on working on the film. Now, some of those demands included things like Justin Baldoni not making any more descriptions of his own genitalia or talking about his pornography addiction,

requiring an intimacy coordinator on set no more scenes with improvised kissing no one asking about her weight and no friends of the producers and directors being on set during scenes where she was in a state of nudity so that's the first part of the complaint and the second then is she alleges that Baldoni orchestrated a plan to destroy her reputation in the press and online, which included him hiring a crisis manager who led a sophisticated, coordinated and well-financed retaliation plan against her. And basically, she's saying that they used a digital army to post social media content that seemed authentic, that would ultimately lead to

substantial harm. And she says that this harm has affected all aspects of her life. And there are reports in various papers, including Today's Sun, that there's a list of demands that Blake Lively had made at that meeting with Justin Baldoni and the studio bosses at the start of the year. What kind of lists or things were in that list? Yeah, so a few of those I mentioned above in terms of, you know, Baldoni not being able to talk about his genitalia or his pornography addiction. But there are some others, including Blake Lively was very clear that she didn't want to take part in any sex scenes outside

of those agreed when she signed up to the film. She didn't want anyone discussing her religious beliefs with her. And one of the ones that might seem somewhat bizarre is that she also said that Justin Baldoni was to stop claiming that he could speak to Miss Lively's father who passed away in 2021. That is worrying, yeah. How has Justin Baldoni's legal team responded to these allegations? I think we're having a few problems with your line there with us right we are having problems with Yasmin's line there what we're going to do is turn to another tape but if you would like to learn more about this story including the response from just from Justin Baldoni's legal team,

there is plenty more from Yasmin over at BBC News Online, where she has written extensively about this. So his legal team's response and more details on this case can be found there at BBC News Online. But let's turn to some news from the health world. If you are struggling with menopause symptoms, you might find yourself trawling through social media looking for a cure. Now, some of the things you'll find will certainly sound very effective and for many of you reassuring as well. Here is a taste of what a few on Facebook and Instagram promise. It's the most comprehensive menopause support supplement out there, helping with mood, brain fog, hot flushes. That's what every woman wants. Or there's this one.

There's a completely natural menopause support designed to target common symptoms such as hot flushes, night sweats, hormonal balance, low mood and bad sleep. And how about this? Did you know the menopause diet makes you lose all the water weight and bloating? It just disappears. It's like magic. Sounds too good to be true?

Well, these quotes are taken from adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority, which has been cracking down on menopause claims on products like food supplements. Donna Castle is from the Advertising Standards Authority and Katrina Anderson is with the law firm Mills Reap. I began by asking Donna why they started looking into this subject. We're all talking about the menopause much more these days. I think that's a really positive thing. People are much more open about their experiences and how they're feeling. And so we wanted to do some proactive monitoring of the ads that are out there. I think when people are talking about an area, it's understandable that more products are coming on the market and there are more adverts out there for them.

So I say we've undertaken proactive monitoring using our AI powered active ad monitoring system to look across the internet at ads for menopause products to flag which ones are potentially problematic. And as you'll know, we've banned a number of ads over the last six months where they've been making misleading claims. You mentioned the AI powered system because prior, in the past, people had to complain about an advert before it would be investigated. So why the change? We want to be more proactive. And if you think about the internet, there's hundreds of thousands of millions of ads out there. So for us to look at them individually would be an almost

impossible task. This year, our AI system has scanned over 30 million ads. So it's enabling us to look at a much wider area and just bring the ones that are potentially problematic to the eyes of our experts. So we can be much more efficient in finding ads that we need to investigate. Katrina, let me bring you in here. You are a lawyer, you work with manufacturers and you advise them on what claims are legal and also help them understand what falls foul of the rules. What do the rules say? The rules make a very clear distinction between medicines and medical devices, which are, as you would expect, medical products. And those products can make, within some bounds,

what we call medical claims, which are claims that you could treat, cure or prevent, in this case, probably the symptoms of menopause. In contrast, most of the products that are being picked up, the adverts for products by the ASA at the moment, are not actually medical products, they're food supplements. Typically, occasionally there are examples of medical devices like apps as well, or possibly just regular devices. But in any case, these kind of food supplement products, because they are not medical products, it's not open to them to make these kind of claims about curing or preventing the symptoms of menopause. Rather, they are treated as foods

and they can only make a kind of lesser sort of claim, which is a health claim, which is about, if you like, what the content of those products does for your body. But they have to be on the register and they have to have had the science behind those claims approved and as of right now we don't have any approved health claims for menopause so it's quite a restrictive environment if the product is a food supplement which typically these are. Expanding on that I'll turn back to you Donna just how much do you think women are being misled in your opinion? And perhaps you could talk us through some of the worst offenders.

Absolutely. I can speak from experience when you're feeling the symptoms of menopause and you see these ads come up on your phone. Obviously, it is incredibly tempting if something is telling you it can take away all of your negative symptoms and help you feel normal again. And it's really important from our perspective that people can trust the ads that they see and that they hear and that's why we take action against those that we deem to be misleading. So in terms of a couple of examples earlier this month we banned three ads for a food supplement product from a brand called Avera and that claimed to prevent menopause weight gain by suppressing appetite and boosting metabolism and as Katrina has explained to you food supplement products are not allowed to make those kind of health claims

unless they're authorised on the nutritionlaims Register, and those weren't. So we banned those ads for that reason. Another example, in the summer, we banned a Facebook ad for a product called Femtech. It claimed to be the most comprehensive menopause supplement on the market, claimed to help with a range of symptoms, mood, brain fog, hot flushes, night sweats, claimed to give you more energy, help you sleep better. If anyone has experienced those symptoms, they would know that to get relief from those would be wonderful. And we determined that people would understand the claims made in that ad to be claims that the product could treat or cure those symptoms. And as food supplements

are not permitted to claim to treat, prevent or cure any disease or disease symptoms, we banned those ads as well. You mentioned Femtech there, and I will bring you their response because we did contact the companies impacted by these rules. Their statement says, We have agreed to fully comply and we thank the guidance provided by the decision of the

Committee of Advertising Practice. While we stand over all claims in respect of our products which are supported by scientific research, we acknowledge the standard as set out and will fully comply with our obligations. But they did add we are surprised by the references in the ruling which appear to imply that menopause is a disease. And Donna, what do you say to that Femtech statement that they are surprised that menopause is considered as a disease? The advertising rules reflect the law and the wording used in the law is disease. So we reflect that language purely because that's the language used in the legislation. So it's not us saying that menopause or symptoms of menopause are a disease.

It's just that the word disease has a much wider definition within the law. Probably a good time to bring in Dr Paula Briggs. She's the former chair of the Menopause Society and a clinician. First of all, what do you make of that point, this debate around menopause is a life phase, not a disease, which is so central to what we are talking about here? Yeah, no, I very much agree that menopause is a life stage and it isn't a disease, but it's integrally linked with ageing.

And as women get older, they're more likely to develop medical problems. And I totally agree with Donna that the increased focus on menopause is a really good thing. But I think what it has led to is women becoming vulnerable. And just like you said, Donna, it's really easy to get drawn in. I've even experienced that to a certain extent myself. And weight loss and sleep, I think, are the two things that really impact on women during the menopause and beyond. So I think women should have a huge amount of caution in relation to anything they see that's being sold to them. Is it ever worth, though, spending money on this kind of thing? Because the adverts, the temptation is everywhere.

When you are in a dark place and you're feeling really low, you will seek support from whatever is offering you reassurance. Yeah, and I think some supplements, for example, red clover and black cohosh can make a difference. But again, there needs to be an element of caution. Women should look for the THR logo when they go to health food shops to buy supplements. The THR logo ensures that the product has the correct dosage, that it's of high quality, and that it contains suitable product information. The worry for me is it's okay if you can afford to trial something. But what I think we are seeing is women who maybe don't have the money purchasing things because they've been led to believe it's going to make a difference.

And actually, all women need holistic care in the menopause transition and beyond. And that should be individualized. And ideally, it should be medically led so that they have the opportunity to have all kinds of things addressed at that time. For example, blood pressure, body mass index, lifestyle interventions are hugely important, but they're much more difficult to do. To increase your exercise, change your diet, that's hard. And if you're being sold a line that this pill or whatever it happens to be is going to allow you to lose weight, then that's really attractive. I can see why people go for it. Yeah, Donna, I'll turn back to you because one of the products said it was FSA approved. And that sounds like a great selling point.

Tell me about the ruling. Yes, that's right. That was a product called Feminopause. I think that's how you pronounce it. And it claimed that it was the only FSA approved menopause supplement. And what they actually meant by that is that they had accurately and successfully submitted the paperwork required to the Food Standards Agency that allowed them to continue selling their product while it was being assessed for safety. However saying on your ad the only FSA approved menopause supplement we felt people would understand that to mean that the food standards agency had made some kind of assessment as to the quality or the effectiveness of the product. So we deemed that that claim in the way that it was presented was misleading, and we banned that ad for that reason.

That's really interesting. Katrina, just hearing that note about the FSA-approved stamp there, can companies come to you before an advert appears for advice so that they don't spend money, time, energy into the product, putting it out there, advertising, for it to only fall back on them? Absolutely. I mean, that is a big reason why companies work very closely with people like myself who specialise in regulatory compliance to ensure that all the claims are accurate and lawful and not misleading and not going to cause problems. but also to the point that we've just touched on there,

certain ingredients in food supplements, particularly food supplements that might have been sold in perhaps the States or other parts of the world which have different regulatory regimes, are not necessarily lawful to sell in food supplements in the UK because they haven't gone through that important stage of actually getting approval. And that is required for ingredients which don't have a sort of history of consumption in the UK. So as well as looking at the claims, we would also ensure or can help ensure that the product is actually lawful to sell in itself in the UK because we do have a different, quite high standard compared to

other parts of the world for safety in relation to food. And Donna I imagine that companies can also come to the advertising standards as well for guidance? Absolutely yes the advertising standards authority has a free copy advice service and we have a range of information on our website that companies can access that explains the rules to them but if they would like the reassurance of speaking to one of our experts prior to them producing their ad then we offer that service free of charge. Paula turning to your expertise if there is someone listening who is unsure about buying a product doesn't really know what to do what would your first bit of advice be to them? I'd say definitely seek the advice of your GP or it could be a practisist

or pharmacist attached to the practice. And I think that could prevent money being wasted on something that isn't necessarily the best thing. And that was Dr Paula Briggs there. And I was also talking to Donna Castle from the Advertising Standards Authority and the lawyer Katrina Anderson. I asked you at the start of the programme about whether or not your gift giving culture over Christmas has changed. It's 84844 if you'd like to send in your messages just like Gemma has who says my sister and I just prioritise the kids not putting each other under the pressure of giving each other a gift is a gift in itself. Adults should be honest about the fact that if you insist on giving someone a gift,

you are burdening them with an obligation to give you one back and potentially causing them financial hardship. I'm no Grinch, but I'm aware of the cost of living crisis and how hard this time of year is for so many people. Thanks for your message, Gemma. And this one from Hearn who says, first of all, thank you for brightening up my day. In terms of giving presents, I only give secondhand things as I'm environmentally conscious. And also because a secondhand is usually better. I feel guilty sometimes because when I receive a present which is new and has a lot of plastic. Well, clearly you're doing a lot of good for the environment.

Thank you, Han, for your message. And thank you for listening to Woman's Hour this Christmas Eve. Do keep your messages coming in at BBC Woman's Hour on social media or 84844 over on text as well. Now, let's return to what we were talking about at the start of the programme. All that is unfolding between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, the actors in the movie It Ends With Us, because last week Lively filed a legal complaint against her co-star, accusing him of sexual harassment and orchestrating a smear campaign against her.

Yasmin Rufo from BBC Culture was speaking to us about the allegations made by Blake Lively. We do now have her back on a more stable line. We were just getting the response from Justin Baldoni's legal team. Just expand on that for us, Jasmine. Yes, so as I was saying, I went through some of the demands that we've heard in this legal complaint. And in terms of what Justin Baldoni's team are saying in response to these,

well, we've only heard from him through his lawyers so far, but they are saying these are categorically false. They say that they did hire a crisis manager, but that was because Miss Lively had threatened to derail the film unless her demands were met. So essentially, his lawyers are saying that she was threatening to not promote the film and that would ultimately lead to its demise during release. And so that's why they needed to bring in this crisis manager not to ruin her reputation as she alleges. His lawyers also say that it's shameful that Miss Lively and her representatives would make such serious and categorically false accusations against Mr Baldoni. Yes I mean I know that you have been following this story for a number of months really and there were hints during the press tour for the film

that all was not well. Yes, there really were some quite big hints, and I think those hints started to show at the New York premiere for the film. The pair weren't photographed together at all, and throughout the entire press tour, actually, they didn't do any interviews together, which is quite unusual.

You know, if we think about something like Wicked, you see Ariana Grande, Cynthia Erivo, they do everything together. They're praising each other. They're talking about how wonderful each other are. But this press tour was very, very different. And instead, if you look at the pictures that came from all of the premieres,

you see Baldoni photographed alone and doing solo interviews. And then you see Blake Lively, along with her husband, Ryan Reynolds, or with Colleen Hoover. And actually at the European premiere in London, which Justin Baldoni didn't attend. By then, you know, rumours were really swirling. And that was where I interviewed Blake Lively.

And her team told me just before the interview that we were categorically to avoid any questions about Justin Baldoni and the rumoured feuds. So clearly there was something going on. So I think while the details of this legal complaint, it's certainly shocking. But I think we all sort of knew or is well known that there was some sort of rifts going on between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. And Yasin, what kind of response has this had from the industry more widely? Well, people have been coming out in support of Blake Lively predominantly. And the author, Colleen Hoover, has posted on Instagram to say that Blake is kind, honest, supportive and patient. And you have the likes of America Ferreira and Amber Tamblyn and Alexis Bledel.

They've all previously worked with Blake Lively and they issued a joint statement on Instagram as well, saying that they stood in solidarity with their friends. And another interesting person that's spoken up is Amber Heard, who she defended the defamation claim by her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. And she actually said she knew firsthand what social media misinformation is like and how horrifying it is as it is destructive. So there are a lot of people that are currently coming out to support Blake Lively. The other thing that's worth mentioning is that Justin Baldoni, he was given an award earlier this year. And it was an award by a women's charity called Vital Voices, which focuses on empowering women. And now the organisation actually just yesterday morning have rescinded that award after the legal complaint and said that this is very contrary to their values.

And so that award was being awarded being taken away. Yasmin Rufo from BBC Culture I'm glad we managed to reconnect and get more details from you and there's more from Yasmin over on the entertainment pages online. Next on to something a bit more positive are you one of the many people excited for the Gavin and Stacey finale? Not long to go now it will be on our screens on Christmas Day, BBC One at 9pm. Mark your calendars. You might have heard the actor Robin Brydon, who plays Uncle Bryn in the show on the Today programme a little earlier.

Well, we've got our own slice of Barry Island on Woman's Hour now. Linda Bailey is the tour guide of the official gavin and stacy bus tour on barry island and she runs the tour as nessa's second cousin sally from the valleys and they visit all the filming locations she joins me now welcome linda good morning good morning looking very festive i love your uh bubbly sparkly festive hair looking fantastic. Look, we've all been there when you love a series. You are invested in the characters, you know them so well and then the series comes to an end and that is where we are with Gavin and Stacey. How are you feeling about this finale and the end of the series? Well, it's very, very emotional.

We've had such a ride, living life through the characters. And of course, on our tours, we relive it every week as well. So it's fantastic. But we'll be sorry to see it all go. But I'm looking forward to the finale. I am. As are so many others.

And Linda, you managed to get a pass in the final episode. How did that come about? Oh, well, I became involved in the film and TV industry back in April of 2010. So I missed all the filming of the three series and the Christmas special of Gavin and Stacey. And then I got involved in the industry. And it was on a Monday, the 2nd of September, the first day of filming. I didn't know what was going on because I had to sign an NDA. Non-disclosure agreements.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I turned up just to let people know I'd arrived, who came towards me but James Corden. And I thought, oh, my God, this is so exciting. Good morning. And he was lovely. And it was like, well, a dream come true, really.

A, been a tour guide for so long, my 13th year. Never been on Gavin and Stacey, but now I can say I have. Well, maybe that's why you got the part, this outright commitment to the series, to the brand. What was it like on set? Absolutely brilliant. Of course it was the first day as well so

everybody was buzzing and obviously I didn't do a major scene. I don't know if you've even seen me. I might be on the catty room floor. Who knows, we'll find out tomorrow. As long as I was there and I knew I might be on the Cajun Room floor. Who knows? We'll find out tomorrow. Exactly. As long as I was there

and I knew I could see all the what's going on in the background which is always exciting to see behind the scenes

then, isn't it? So it was really, really good to do that. Yeah, and you were there on the last days of the filming as well.

Not on set but in town. What was that atmosphere like? We just became part of the fans really we went down we knew that um filming days are very long but we weren't sure if they'd finish early on that day because they were having a wrap party by the way i wasn't in my dirt and uh that's a shame at seven, which is probably on a par with most days, long filming days, but fabulous on set. And they all came out like they'd been doing to say goodnight to the fans and have selfies.

So it was well worth it being a fan this side of the camera for a change. But when you were on set, mind, I got to skip it to them, the catering was absolutely immense yeah that's good to know people they had um no expense spared it was beauty for food uh you um are a guide and that is the reason we've invited you on you're a guide on the gavin and stacy bus tour on barry island where do you take people? Yes. Well, we pick them up in Barry, obviously, and then we take them to the Dolphin,

which is called the Dolphin in real life, of course. And then we take them along to King's Square, where she did the human statue. We have a little photo stop there. People become more immersive into the tour. And then we take a trip out to the Vale of Glamorgan the beautiful countryside where we find a church where they have the almost wedding of Nessa and Dave and the christening of Neil the baby so that's that one and we come back we have a little break in the pub time out and then we come back into Barry and, of course, visit Gwen's house.

The owner, of course, is the legend that is Glenda. That cosy home. I know. I think she had, oh, I don't know, over 33,000 visitors and she welcomes them open-armed. Our tours are prioritised now. It's only people on Brit movie tours can go inside the house. So that's an extra special treat for everyone, especially when you've got a photograph with the omelette. It's only people on Brit movie tours can go inside the house.

So that's an extra special treat for everyone, especially when you've got a photograph with the omelette pounding up. You've given us a sense there of just how popular it is. But how do the fans react? And who's coming on these trips and tours? Well, funny enough, the the series initially ended uh see the first of january 2010 nothing was nothing was done then we were just ticking along with our tour maybe one or two a month as we came towards um uh 2019 but as soon as we knew there was going to be another christmas special almost 10 years after the series had ended,

the tours went mad. I can imagine. We had to wait for the pandemic to go and then the tours took off. So instead of one or two a month, we more like two a day. Really? I can imagine you might have the same reaction after this finale tomorrow as well.

You run it as Sally from the Valleys, Nessa's second cousin. This is a character you've made up. Is it easy to slip into character, Linda? I do. I find it's easier to present the two as I'm Sally from the Ronda Valley. I'm Nessa's second cousin.

I want to meet you. And I can go into that it's easier and I do know some of the family anyway so when I start talking about members of the family who were invited on the 2019 Christmas special people are starting to go hang on I'm really a second cousin I went well yes I would like you so it's it's just naturally fact, I think I am now. I've convinced myself after 13 years that I am in fact Ness's second cousin. So Linda Bailey is Ness's second cousin. You've given yourself that title. Yes.

And the thing is, when you book a tour, you might not get Sally from the Rhondda Valley. You might get my colleague, Carrie from Barry. And three years ago, we took on a younger tour guide, because to be fair, Papi and I are cracking on a bit, right? Lovely young lady from Barry called Karen, but don't call her Karen. She wants to be known as Kaz from Baz, down with the kids. And her sideline business, she's only our very own knockoff Nessa from TikTok. So she's ideal to join the tiny team of tour guides of Gavin and Stacey. Linda, I really think they need to give you a part

or they should have given you a bigger part in this finale for all the hard work and your commitment to Gavin and Stacey. You do have another little link to the programme, don't you? Because a bit like Gavin and Stacey, you're Welsh and your other half is English. So did they get it right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He's not English anymore, mind.

He's Wenglish now. Oh, he's Wenglish now. Is that another brand you've created, Linda? Look, Linda, absolute pleasure having you on. We look forward to spotting you in the finale if we can. But good luck with the tours. That's Linda Bailey, tour guide of the official Gavin and Stacey bus tour

on Barry Island, also known as Sally from the Valleys as she takes on those tours. And the episode is out tomorrow. But if you can't wait till tomorrow evening for a dose of the show, then all the previous episodes

are available on iPlayer, as well as the documentary called Gavin and Stacey, the making of the finale with the BBC's Colin Paterson. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Thank you for your messages that are coming in on gift giving and how you like to do it this one says i have a lovely gift for my friend abroad i don't want for much at christmas i just want the person receiving it to be healthy happy and loved a lovely sentiment there and this one from vanessa says essentially most of us have all we need. So for quite a few years now, I have recycled items, for example, books, or I just get things from charity shops and I make a donation to charity with what I have spent. I ask my friends to do the same for me. I collect or put things aside throughout the year so there is no last minute pressure and the money goes where it's needed and we all get something to open as well.

That is a sentiment being shared by a previous person who messaged as well, upcycling, recycling and giving to charity. Do keep your messages coming in 84844. Now, best-selling author Minette Walters shot to fame in the 1990s with her award-winning gritty crime novels, The Ice House, The Sculptress and The Scald's Bridal. Minette continued to write successful crime fiction for over 20 years until she changed tack in 2017 and began to write historical novels.

Her new book, The Players, takes in the action of the Monmouth Rebellion when after Charles II's death, his illegitimate son, the Duke of Monmouth, challenged James II for the throne. It was a tumultuous moment in British history and one that captured Minette's imagination, as she explained to me. The second half of the 17th century is to me the most fascinating period in British history. It was the Civil War, followed by a republic of ten years,

then the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II, and then his brother James II came to the throne, having converted to Catholicism. And he lasted only three years before William and Mary, James II's nephew and daughter, first cousins who had married and were Protestant, came and took the throne from him effectively and signed the Declaration of Rights, which gave us our constitutional monarchy. So in a very short period, 40, 45 years, civil war, republic, restoration of the monarchy, and then constitutional monarchy. So it was an incredibly interesting period. Many of us will have grown up learning about King Henry VIII, the Tudors, Queen Victoria, maybe. Why do you think, as a society, we don't know more about this period of time?

Do you know, Crippa, I really genuinely have no idea. It's such a fascinating period. And the book that this one follows on from, The Swift and the Harrier, is all about the Civil War and why that was fought, what it was about. And the idea that we had this very brutal civil war in which, as a percentage of the population, more people died than in the First World War. And the deaths in that were enormous. Effectively, I suppose what I find so interesting

is that we don't teach the history of our democracy, how we got it, how hard we fought for it, and why it's important. And so, I don't know, I'd love schools to teach the second half of the 17th century. It's a very, very fascinating time. I want to focus on your character creation, because in some cases you've used historical figures,

in others you've created your own characters. How do you go about weaving them together? Well, that really is the fun part, actually. I have to fully understand the period I'm writing about and select which of the real figures I'm going very exploratory writer and I write through my characters and say to invent people who can interact with the real characters of the time is wonderful. It really is because you then tell the story to the reader through the eyes of the fictional characters and then through that you can introduce them to the real people of the time and and to the history and I love doing that I absolutely adore writing characters into real situations and here's what I want to learn do

you know how these fictional characters are going to unfold when you start putting pen to paper? Because we know how the historical characters are going to emerge. Absolutely not. That's where the exploratory part comes in. I know the kind of people I want to tell the story. So if we just take Althea, who's one of the characters in the story, I wanted a very reclusive person. And so I created her in that way because then she becomes a sort of mouthpiece. By being reclusive, she has spent her entire time with books, reading,

learning, and her knowledge of the law is extensive. And because of her reclusive and socially very awkward nature, I think she helps the readers understand how the law worked in those days. And so what I do is I knew I wanted a character like that, but how was she going to interact with everyone else? And that's the fun of it. You know, one way of describing exploratory writing is to say, you are in London and you know you want to get to Glasgow. So you know what the ending is roughly going to be. And you know what the beginning is roughly going to be. It's how do you get there? And to go from London to Glasgow, there's probably 20 different ways.

And you have to keep selecting the route you're going along. And that's glorious fun because I actually don't know what's going to happen next any more than my reader does. So hopefully it creates good suspense. You mentioned Althea there, who is also a wheelchair user. How did you or what did you do to learn more about the implications of her disability in the 17th century? Well, there's so much. There are wonderful books on the history of medicine. There are wonderful websites on the history of medicine, actually.

But the bit about the wheelchair, I was so intrigued to read that Philip of Spain, King Philip of Spain, who suffered terrible gout, he invented the idea of putting wheels on his chair. And I thought, what a great thing, because that was prior to the period I'm writing about. And I thought, yep, that will work beautifully. I can interweave that into the story. So, yep, Althea has a wheeled chair. Another fictional character is Lady Harrier, who's an unofficial doctor and a very successful one. Tell us more about her. Right. Well, she actually features very much in the previous

book, Swift and the Harrier, because during the Civil War, she actually, I did an immense amount of research, medical research for that, and found all these extraordinary things, like maggots, for example, were first discovered on the continent during one of their wars, and how good they were at getting rid of gangrene. And you find out all these amazing facts.

And I wanted a woman, a powerful woman, strong woman in that book. And I really enjoyed bringing her back into the players. She's based on, I mean, there was a wonderful woman in the 16th century called Alice Leavers, who practiced medicine when it was completely illegal for women to practice medicine. And she was very good at it, much better than the male physicians. And they became very angry that she was stealing their patients. So they reported her as practicing medicine. And she was then taken to court and was going to be tried for this illegal practice of practicing medicine.

And Queen Elizabeth I got to hear about it. And she sent her Lord Chamberlain along to argue for Alice Leavers. Alice Leavers, the charges were then dropped. And she allowed to continue practising medicine for the rest of her life. I love that story. I love the fact that it was a man who went and argued on her behalf and the fact that Queen Elizabeth interceded. Then there were two women in the 17th century, this is a period I'm writing about, women were banned from universities so you couldn't get a license. But there was one other way and two women, one called Elizabeth Moore, another called Mary Rose, they applied to the Archbishop of Canterbury and he granted them licenses to practice medicine. So women were not unknown in the practising of medicine at that time.

And Lady Jane, I adore her as a character. I've loved writing her twice and she's a very strong woman. The novel is certainly buzzing with characters. Here you are writing historical fiction, but many will know you for your work writing crime novels. How and why did you make that transition? When we moved to where we are now in Dorset, we're in a very, very tiny hamlet. And there's a plague pit somewhere in the hamlet. And that fascinated me me and I then discovered that the plague had come into England through Dorset through Weymouth in fact and I had at the back of my mind for a very long time while

I was writing crime I'd love to write a story about the Black Death and there comes a point I suppose the best analogy I can give is that you've been a teacher for 20 years, but actually secretly you've always wanted to be a farmer. You have to make the decision. You're a good teacher and you enjoy teaching, but do you want to try? Do you just want to give it a go, have a go at being a farmer? That's kind of what I thought. I thought, ah, I'd love to write this historical novel. So that was the first one I wrote the last hour. It's about the Black Death. And, oh, you get the bug for it, you know.

And also, it's not so different from crime fiction. There really are many more criminals in history than there are in crime fiction. Your first full-length novel, The Ice House, was published back in 1992. It took two and a half years to write and then it was rejected by a number of publishing houses until it was then bought. What do you say to new writers who are trying to get a break but just aren't feeling like they're getting anywhere? Oh, it's so difficult. And honestly, once you can get an agent, it really helps,

because they take on the whole job of trying to sell it. Meanwhile, you can write something else. So I started a new book. I kind of gave up on The Ice House in the sense that I didn't think they'd ever sell it. And so I started writing The Sculptress, which was my next book. And it wasn't a sequel at all. I mean, it was a completely different book. And The Ice House was then bought. And then The Sculptress, and it was bought all around the world which was extraordinary and then the Sculptris I literally the day I finished it was bought by 15 publishers around the world and I then had to start writing the next one with Scoles Bridal but what it allowed

me to do was write one-off crime stories because I hadn't thought The Ice House would sell. So I was in this enviable position of being able to do one-offs all the time and still sell, which is quite strange in crime. Most crime fiction are serial characters. But I was allowed to write, what, I think I did 13 in the end, and they were all different, different characters, one-off books, which is much more fun, much more fun. And to those who feel like they're knocking on doors

but just not getting anywhere, what do you say? Yes, I just say keep going. You have to have faith in yourself. And if you can't sell your first book, start a new one. Just keep plugging on. Don't give up, don't give up, don't give up. And make sure you're a good editor of your own work. You must be an editor.

Don't assume that just because something has lots of lovely flowery prose in it, it's actually going to work inside the novel. It may bring the reader to a complete standstill. So be brutal. Take out anything that doesn't work and keep going. Keep going. Wise words from Minette Walters. And she was talking about her new novel the players more messages coming in on how you like to give gifts over christmas georgie says i give money to my children and to my nieces and nephews who are 10 years older over i still buy presents for little children but everyone gets a little bit of cash a present of money is great

for everyone and she goes on to say that it also means a Christmas day is more about the company of one family than the presents. Happy Christmas. Happy Christmas to you as well, Georgie. Thank you for your message. And this one from Carrie says, I have a large family. I buy for my nieces and nephews until they are 18. And each year I make a little Christmas tree decorations for my siblings, which they add to their trees. Thank you, Carrie, from a very crafty carrie there and this one says a few years ago we started a new christmas tradition of donating all

the money that we would have spent on presents for the adults in our families to all those humanitarian aid organizations doing incredible work over here and in war-torn countries and that we ask others to do the same instead of buying any presents for us, we print off the thank you receipt from the organisation and add it to everyone's Christmas card so the donation feels more meaningful. Some lovely tips there if you're wondering what to do for a last minute present. Now, for many of us, hunkering down on the sofa in your PJs, wrapped up in a blanket to watch heartwarming Christmas films is a key part of the festive season.

There is one place that you are able to find a collection of these and that is the Hallmark Channel, where the movies tend to be sentimental, family-friendly and set in snow-drenched small American towns, often following a big city woman coming home for Christmas and falling in love with a local. Many of these can also be watched on other platforms like Netflix. Film critic Rihanna Dillon and journalist Kayleigh

Dre have seen a couple of this year's Christmas offerings and join me now to give us their takes. Welcome to you both. Hi. Hi. Kayleigh, you saw Hot Frosty that sees a young widow fall in love with a snowman turned handsome man. I have to say, I watched this yesterday. What did you make of it? Obviously, it's bonkers. I mean, it's such a comforting movie, isn't it? I think I've spoken before about how it is like a deeper meaning to the character of the snowman he um represents the

cinnamon roll trope yeah we're going to talk about that yeah yeah yeah but your verdict um yeah i mean it's it's one i'll watch again probably but it's not going down with the muppet christmas carol for me as a number one and rihanna uh you watched uh uh in the merry gentleman and that's Ashley, the character attempts to save her parents' business in her small hometown with an all-male dance show. What was your verdict? Honestly, it started off kind of stronger than Hot Frosty, I'll be honest. I found it really quite problematic. Ashley gets sacked from her job, comes in New York York comes back to her

small town helps her family fundraise for their bar with this sort of male review magic mic stripper show then gets a call back to that her job is there waiting for her back in New York if she wants it with a bigger pay rise and she wants to go but then she gets shouted at by this guy that she's known for a week and then decides no she, she's going to stay for this controlling man. That's not Christmassy. That's not romantic. So you're troubled by that one. Kayleigh, you called Hot Frosty bonkers. So why do we do it?

I mean, does the quality of the Christmas film actually matter, Kayleigh? I don't know that it does, to be honest. I think it's selling us a fantasy isn't it like an escapist fantasy they're all i would say that they're running it looks like it's demonizing career women but i'd say it's also more about the fact that it's demonizing burnout culture they're all running away from these horrific jobs that make them feel awful about themselves and they're finding meaning and purpose and connection elsewhere in a job that actually I mean I'm looking at falling in love the um the Lindsay Lohan one her big skill that

she brought to that was that she understood how social media worked and we I mean we all know that but no one else in the town did so it's nice that she's having this small skill acknowledged by everyone around her and yeah I think that is a fantasy that many of us can get behind. Rihanna you're nodding. Yes I mean I sort of can understand the burnout aspect of that and I was asking my friend who watches these films sort of religiously why she loves them so much and it is that idea of it being so safe so comforting it's very predictable it's like you know going into these films that nothing horrific is going to happen.

There's going to be no violence. There's not going to be any nasty words because they're usually sort of PG or 12 rating. And you know that there's not going to be any sex either. So it's kind of, they do feel quite sexless, but also incredibly sort of like a cocoon. Tingly, right? Yeah, escapism, ultimately.

Yeah. Kayleigh, you mentioned the term cinnamon roll. First of all, what do you mean when a male character is kind of put into that category of being a cinnamon roll? What does that mean? And why do you think this type of character has become so popular? So by cinnamon roll trope i mean it's sort of like the man is the beta to the women's alpha he's quite gentle he's in touch with his emotions he's attractive in a non-threatening way usually um sometimes he's a

snowman that's been brought to life by a magical scarf um but the one thing that they always have is that they are always seeking consent. You always have a scene in these films where the woman will be drunk or out of control and she'll fall asleep in their presence. And these men will usually tuck them in nicely on a sofa and then leave the room and go. They just go. And there's no sense of danger. There's no sense of threat. They're just gentle, respectful and far more likely to be hurt than cause harm. And seem to be a kind of core component of these films yeah i think that with everything i think with everything going on in the world we we're really drawn to this idea of this non-dangerous love interest and someone who

makes us feel safe and like that you said brianna like these films do cocoon you you feel very comforted you know you're not going to have any high stakes drama there's no no sense that something's going to go wrong if this woman does fall asleep drunk in a man's presence it's just safe something I noticed in that in Hot Frosty is this term that um was recently introduced to me the born sexy yesterday trope which usually applies to women so for example in films like 50 shades of grey where this woman is introduced to this new world of bdsm and the fifth element where you have this newborn alien woman who has no idea about the world and has to be taught by bruce willis one of my favorite films so i i understand the problems but i love it um splash is another one

and so in hot frosty it's kind of flipped on its head. And it's the guy who is kind of, you know, very naive, very childlike. And it does feel quite infantilizing. And I was thinking, you know, as a woman, it feels really odd to want to kind of fall in love with a man who has never experienced any other kind of love either or anything outside of you. And it's like a baby bird opening his eyes and seeing his mother for the first time I don't think that that's a particularly attractive thing that wouldn't kind of pull me in so that's why I find Hot Frosty really interesting why people I thought the same yeah yeah yeah and what

about this um this trope of the female leaving her life in the big city falling in love with a small town guy is it a dangerously out of date narrative yeah i think it is i mean it's really sort of conservative values isn't it all with a small c all wrapped up in a in a pretty bow and we are told that this is romance of sacrificing career and independence for potentially at least in the case of the merry gentleman i think controlling partner um again i don't think we're supposed to take these films any more seriously than the writers do. But there are these slightly more insidious hidden messages. I think in Hot Frosty, I don't think it's super problematic. I think it's sweet, you can take it at face value.

But it's these other films, which are sort of more critical of women's choices. And it's of course, it's their choice to come home and to be kind of back where they started um and if as kaylee says i think the burnout thing is a really interesting point to make um but it doesn't really appeal to me well we'll leave it there whatever you're watching this christmas do enjoy it don't take it too seriously as rihanna and kaylee say uh rihanna dylan and kaylee dray film critics giving us their takes on what we are calling cinnamon roll male characters in these heartwarming festive films. Thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour. Do join us tomorrow for a very special recorded Christmas Day Woman's Hour

where Nuala and Anita will be presenting together for the very first time. As it is the season of comfort and joy, they'll be exploring with their guests why comfort is so important, especially to women at this time of the year. You can find that all online tomorrow as well. But do join us live, if you can, at 10 tomorrow. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds.

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy show that takes history seriously. And we are back for series eight, starting with a live episode recorded at the Hay Literary Festival, all about the history of the medieval printed book in England. Our comedian there is Robin Ince. And then we'll be moving on to the life of Mary Anning, the famous paleontologist of the 19th century with Sarah Pascoe. Then it's off to Germany in the 1920s for an episode on LGBTQ life in Weimar, Germany, with Jordan Gray. And then we'll hop on a ship all the way back to Bronze Age Crete to learn about the ancient Minoans with Josie Long. Plus loads more. So if that sounds like fun,

listen and subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.