Woman's Hour - Miriam-Teak Lee and Cassidy Janson in &Juliet

Episode Date: November 28, 2019

‘& Juliet’ has just opened in London’s West End. It’s a comic, musical reimagining of the events of Shakespeare’s tragic romance ‘Romeo & Juliet’ in which Juliet opts not to take her own life at the end and instead heads off to France on a road trip of self-discovery. Both Miriam-Teak Lee who plays Juliet and Cassidy Janson, who plays Anne Hathaway, Shakespeare’s wife join Andrea Catherwood.A decorated senior police officer who was sent an unsolicited child abuse video by her concerned sister has been convicted and put on a sex offenders register. She said she hadn’t seen the video. The Black Policing Association say that the pursuance of the case, which was at the discretion of the Met Police, shows institutional racism. They join us, along with the Internet Watch Foundation who explain what you should do if you receive unsolicited images or videos of abuse.Sasha Wass QC has been a criminal barrister for nearly 40 years – she’s defended and prosecuted numerous high profile cases such as Rosemary West and Rolf Harris as well as complex fraud, money laundering, murder, and serious sexual misconduct. She co-presents BBC One’s daytime series, ‘Murder, Mystery and My Family’, where she and fellow barrister Jeremy Dein reinvestigate historical cases. The popular series is back for a third time, and there’s also a book to accompany the series. In her new cookbook Wok On, food writer, Ching-He Huang celebrates the versatility of the wok. She joins us in the studio to Cook the Perfect…Five Spice Saucy Stir Fry Chicken.Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Susie Hargreaves Interviewed Guest: Janet Hills Interviewed Guest: Miriam-Teak Lee Interviewed Guest: Cassidy Janson Photographer: Johan Persson Interviewed Guest: Sasha Wass Interviewed Guest: Ching-He Huang

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We're going to be discussing an important story that you've probably seen in the news. A decorated woman police superintendent with the Met was convicted this week of possessing indecent images of a child after her sister sent a video on a WhatsApp message to highlight the abuse.

We're going to discuss the implications. And we've got the stars of a new West End musical on the show today. It's called And Juliet. The heroine, instead of taking her own life after the loss of her lovestruck Romeo, decides to head off on a road trip to France. It's full of pop-up anthems and the show is a blast. And I can tell you, so are the actors. And we've also got live cooking in the studio. There is hot oil, a wok, and Ching-Hui Huan is going to be chopping away for us.

There's also a fire officer in the corner of the room. What could possibly go wrong? But first, Sasha Wass has been a criminal barrister for almost 40 years and a leading Queen's counsellor. She's defended and prosecuted numerous high-profile cases, Rosemary West and Rolf Harris, also complex fraud cases and recently she defended the man convicted of the murder of teenager Ellie Gould. Now you may also know her from BBC One's daytime series Murder, Mystery and My Family, where she and fellow barrister Jeremy Dean

reinvestigate historic cases. It's just come back on our screens for a third series. Sasha, welcome. Hello. Explain to me just the premise of the programme. The programme looks at historic cases, capital cases, that's to say cases where the death penalty has resulted. And the programme takes a modern day member of the family, a descendant of the hanged man or woman, and asks that person to look into whether there has been

a miscarriage of justice in that case. So effectively, the format is it's a true crime account, which is very popular nowadays. There is social and legal history, which is interesting. And you've got the immediacy of a family member talking about their relation. Interesting. I watched yesterday's programme, which featured a chap called Norman Thorne, and he was hanged for murdering his girlfriend. Two things struck me. One, as you say, was that historical aspect of the case. Because, you know, you show old photographs and letters.

And it does give a very interesting sort of slice of life from a very different time. Well, life and death, in fact, in these cases. But the other is how much the motives haven't changed. Love and sex. Well, human beings haven't changed at all. Human nature hasn't changed at all. Love, sex and money, I would say, are the motives that come up over and over again.

And so we're looking at cases here where the convicted person lost their life. Yes. Capital punishment. In almost all of them. They were all sentenced to death. Some of them had the sentence commuted to life imprisonment in a couple of episodes. So obviously for us, the thoughts that we have today about capital punishment mean that if there's a miscarriage of justice in some of these cases, that really is quite frightful looking back on it.

It's horrendous. And have you come across those cases? I know that our friend Norman yesterday seemed to be pretty much guilty as charged. Norman's conviction was deemed safe. He did cut off his girlfriend's head and buried it in a biscuit tin. Exactly. There have been three series so far, series three, as you say, is being aired at the moment. And there has been an astonishing number of cases where the judge, David Radford, has agreed with us that there have been miscarriages of justice. So that really says a lot about how wise it is to continue with capital punishment.

And people who want to reinstate it should think very carefully, because if mistakes are made, that is it. Has looking back at these historic cases given you any insights into your day job? I think the legal system has changed beyond recognition. We still have problems as far as fairness of trials is concerned, but the system in certainly in Victorian times was rudimentary and unformed and defendants really had a much tougher time in the criminal justice system than they do today. And of course, forensics are completely different. Forensics are and aren't. I mean, we engaged modern day scientists and firearms experts and the like.

And as far as toxicology, firearms and blood evidence, that really has withstood the test of time. Pathology has been slightly different. You'll know from Norman Thorne's case that the celebrated pathologist Sir Bernard Spilsbury came under attack. He got a tough time. He got a tough time. He was a celebrity of his day and was very keen to support the prosecution theory, not always entirely fairly. Now, in your day job, you've defended some of the most high profile cases in the UK in recent years. You defended Rosemary West. In fact, you actually didn't want her to face trial at all, I think. Well, there was an application for the case to be stayed

because the argument was that she couldn't have a fair trial because there was such bad publicity surrounding her trial particularly after the suicide of her husband Frederick West. I wonder what it's like to defend somebody who the media and indeed public opinion is so vehemently against and I wonder also if we are still more shocked when it's a woman who is charged with these hideous crimes than it is with a man. I think we are. I think that's absolutely true, particularly where women are charged with killing children. I've done a lot of baby shaking cases and there is a perception that if the man shakes his baby who dies, well, men are entitled to get bad-tempered or understandably bad-tempered, whereas a woman should be nurturing and perfect. Yeah, tough act to follow.

Everyone, of course, has got the right to a defence under our judicial system. And yet I'm sure that there are listeners thinking, how can you do that? How can you defend some of these people? What would you say to that? Well, you've got to approach the case intellectually. If somebody tells you they're guilty, you will simply put forward mitigation.

You mentioned the case of Ellie Gould. Thomas Griffiths pleaded guilty, and I simply put forward mitigation on his behalf before he was sentenced. If a client tells me they are not guilty and explains why they are not guilty and what evidence they challenge, my job is to challenge that evidence. It's not really... I'm not making a moral judgment on people I defend. Anil, how does it feel when you're waiting for the jury to come back? I mean, do you mostly have a sense by that stage

of which way it's going to go? I think there's so much at stake, isn't there? There is, but you try to predict. It's a bit like a general election. You look for signs and you think you've got it right and it always comes out differently. Right. Now, there was a report last year from the Bar Council showing that allegations of bullying, harassment and discrimination had actually increased in your profession. Did that shock you or does that match the experiences you've come up against? I think women are more comfortable now complaining. I certainly don't think bullying and harassment has increased.

I've been at the bar for 38 years. When I started at the bar, discrimination was rife and harassment and bullying was rife. Things are much, much better now. And women feel confident about complaining. Women feel able to confide in older women like myself if they are being taken advantage of. So I think things have improved. And the fact that there are more complaints is actually an indication that people have the confidence to complain

and will not tolerate the sort of behaviour that many of us who started in the 1980s did tolerate. Right, yeah. Now, only about 16% of QCs are women. Now, we know loads of girls go in to study law. I studied law. And quite a few become lawyers. But then somewhere along the line, quite a few people fall away. And when it gets to the top the answer. I think you're asking a very big question. As far as dealing with women, younger women in my chambers, in my profession, everybody is encouraged. But it's a tough job. Like many jobs, you have to have a certain resilience and you have to really want to do it in order to survive.

Just on that subject of resilience, I know that often witnesses and jurors are offered counselling when they've been dealing with some really horrific cases, as you've done. How do you process it? Are you ever offered counselling? Would you accept it? I was offered counselling after the Rosemary West case. I think all the lawyers were. I didn't take it. As far as I understand, none of the lawyers took it. You have ways of dealing with things without having to actually speak to a professional. Those of us who've got good family and support systems and friends can deal with it in other ways. But I think the problem is if you're traumatised and you are isolated, it is in those circumstances that counselling can really help.

But I'm very lucky. I have never felt that isolated. Sasha Walsh, thank you very much indeed. Now, there is a book accompanying this new series of Murder, Mystery and My Family, and it's on BBC One at 9.15 on weekdays. Well, now we're going to move on to a troubling story that you may have seen in the news. A decorated senior black police officer was sent an unsolicited child abuse video by her concerned sister and she has been convicted and put on the sex offenders register. Now she said she hadn't seen the video and in the Times newspaper morning, two senior police officers, two former senior police officers, including the former Met Police Commissioner, Lord Blair, have actually criticised that decision to prosecute. The Black Policing Association say that it was the Met Police's choice to pursue that case, and it shows institutional racism. Well their president Janet Hills is here along with Susie Hargreaves who's

the chief executive of Internet Watch Foundation to explain to us what you should do if you receive unsolicited images or videos of abuse. Welcome to you both. Morning. Janet if I could just ask you first of all to explain how Superintendent Robin Williams came to have this video? Well, it was given or sent to her by her sister. And that is how she became in possession of it. It was sent on a WhatsApp group to a number of people in the group, to everyone in the group. Absolutely. There were 17 people, including Superintendent Robin Williams, that it was sent to. However, as you've seen, there's only three people that were up or charged with it and were sent to court. Yes, so Robin Williams, her sister and her sister's partner were convicted. The Met

Police have sent us through this statement. I'm just going to read it. The case was thoroughly investigated by the Met with a file of evidence presented to the Crime Prosecution Service who made the decision to charge. A jury then convicted the defendants of a range of offences. It is completely wrong to suggest this serious matter involving possession of an indecent image of a child being sexually abused was pursued due to ethnicity of the defendants. The Met investigates without fear of favour every day and the public rightly expects us to act when allegations of a crime are reported to us, even more so when those allegations involve a police officer. Now, possessing indecent images, Janet, of a child

is a criminal offence. Absolutely. Even if the judge in this case agreed that there was no suggestion that they were for sexual gratification and she is a senior officer, did the Met have to pursue this case agreed that there was no suggestion that they were for sexual gratification and she is a senior officer did the Met have to pursue this case? No they put it this way they they should have taken action without a shadow of a doubt absolutely all three people in fact all 17 people that were involved should have been held to account for their possession of it, because, as you say, it's law. However, internally, there are guidelines that suggest

that if you are in innocent possession of something like this, because actually technology has moved on, people can be quite innocently in possession of these kind of images that are sent to them in WhatsApp and from their mobile phones or in their mobile phones that actually they allow for discretion in terms of the amount of people that potentially could find themselves in this position. What I'm saying is that those guidelines were not followed

and therefore we found ourselves with people that were in this innocent possession being put on the sex offender register. When, as you said, there is no indication whatsoever that there are risks to children at all. Now, Lord Blair and Lord Paddock, both very senior former officers, have condemned Scotland Yard's decision to press for prosecution in the Times newspaper this morning. Lord Blair wrote a letter. He pointed out that the prosecution, as you said, should be in the public interest. Lord Paddock said something, actually, I find even more interesting. He said that he knew of officers accused of more serious offences,

including sex offences, whose cases were dealt with internally and talked of some officers being what he called protected. Now, in the statement that we have from the Met Police, they have said that this could not have been dealt with internally. Why do you think Robin Williams' case was sent to the Crime Prosecution Service when other police officers' cases have been dealt with internally? So for me, I talk about the institutional racism based on the fact that the processes, the collective failure of the organisation to actually investigate, which is fair for everyone, not indifferent. And what we have at the moment is an indifference where, as you say, there have been cases where similar situations have been dealt with internally. However, when it comes to a black person or person of ethnic minority, that doesn't seem to apply.

We seem to get the letter of the law and everything is by the book. And you really feel that this, that Robin Williams' ethnicity or her gender or both have contributed to this? I'm not saying necessarily it was a conscious thing, but unconsciously, again, when you look at all the data around disproportionality for black and ethnic minorities in the criminal justice system or even in misconduct locally in policing, that is where the issue lies. Thank you very much for now. I'd like to bring in Susie on this.

Susie, this is what is called a strict liability offence. And that means that if you didn't open the video, in fact, it actually means even if you didn't know it was there, that you are in possession of of date, you know, with so many WhatsApp groups. I mean, it's really hard to keep up and certainly, you know, most of us can't look at everything that's on that group all the time. It's quite possible that many of us don't know what's on our phone. Yes, I mean, it is possible. And one of the worries for me about this case is that it will actually put people off reporting child sexual abuse. And it is true that if you're in possession of a child sexual abuse image, you are, it is a crime because you're in possession. But, you know, realistically, there's so much child sexual abuse out there that if people do accidentally stumble across it or they are sent it without and they, you know,

they're sent it and they don't know what to do, actually there is something you can do. You can either, if it's on WhatsApp, you have to go through the police because it's an end-to-end encrypted message. But if you actually find something on the open web, you can report it to us at the IWF, iwf.org.uk. You send us the link, we will then investigate it. And our advice

to someone is do the right thing, report it. You can report it anonymously to us. We will then advise you to delete it. And you must not go back and check if that link is live. You must just trust that you've deleted it from your system and we will then take it forward. And the real worry about this is that, you know, people send things all the time on the internet. They share things all the time. That's interesting because in this case, Robin Williams' sister said that the reason that she sent it

was to say, you know, oh my goodness, look at this. Isn't this horrific? Something should be done about this. Clearly, if you find these kind of images online, that's not what you should do. Well, I can't comment on the actual case because I don't know the details. But if you find an image online,

you shouldn't pass it on to other people. You certainly shouldn't pass it on to other people. For any reason. You definitely should not pass it on to anybody for any reason. What you should do is report it to the relevant authority, which in our case would be if it's on the open web to ourselves or to the police if it's on WhatsApp.

Now, I wonder about the idea of prosecuting here. The judge called these very unusual circumstances. And I can think of other people, for example, journalists, academics, who might be looking at these kind of images for work. Have you ever heard of anybody before being prosecuted when, as the judge said, there was no suggestion that these images were for sexual gratification? Well, I would say that people can't look at images for work

unless they have legal authority to do so. So we can look at images because we have a MOU with Crown Prosecution Service National Police Chiefs Council which protects our staff to doing that. I'm sure that if you're an academic, you wouldn't necessarily have those protections in place.

I'm not aware but I'm not an expert on the levels of prosecution. Should the law be changed? Should this still be a strict liability offence? I think realistically I want to go back to the sort of volumes issue

there's probably a case to be made about taking, I mean my experience of the police generally and I'm afraid I can't comment on this particular case is that generally they take a really common sense approach to this. We have over 100,000 people looking at child sexual abuse. And to be honest, it's not a great use of anybody's time

to go after someone who just stupidly shared an image when people have thousands of images and are actually actively going out and seeking child sexual abuse. And those are the ones we want to go after. And those are the ones we want to stop and want them to stop their behaviour and not share. So if you are a general member of the public and you get sent something, do the right thing and pass it on. And I'm sure that the police are all having these discussions about what is the good use of police time and resources in terms of prosecution and the whole process.

Well, absolutely. Let's ask Janet, what do you think about that? I mean, what is the mood amongst the Black Police Association and indeed amongst the policing community in general about this? Superintendent Robin Williams is a role model to so many people, both black and white, within the police service and within the community. She's a professional. She has had impeccable service and here we are in this space um having found that she's been convicted of this which now puts her on a sex

offender register when there is no you know no need for it to have happened in the first place the mood is is that actually if it can happen to her with such an impeccable background, actually all of us are at risk from it happening to us. Now, the judge did say that it was a grave error of judgment on her part not to have reported it. She does face a misconduct investigation internally. is she going to lose her job? I think yes, is the answer, just given how the way all of this has played out. But that would be the ultimate penalty for her.

I mean, a police officer's lifespan is 30 years anyway. She's done 36 years of impeccable service. So actually, she's given her time as a public servant. And as I said, up until that point, impeccable service and a complete professional. Janet Hills, thank you very much. And to Susie Hargreaves as well. Susie, before we go, just tell us again what people should do, where they should report it. If they right now, realise that they've got some images on their phone that they feel they need to report it?

Okay, so please report it. It's not a victimless crime, so please report it. If it's on WhatsApp, you need to report it to the police and they will advise you accordingly about how to deal with the content. If it's on the open web and you have the web page, the URL, you need to report

that to us through our reporting page i iwf.org.uk. You then, once you've reported it, you need to delete it from your laptop or from your phone and do not go back. So report it to us. You can do it anonymously. We do not send your details on to the police. The only information we share with police is that of victims. Thank you very much indeed for that. And we'll also have that information

on the Woman's Hour website. Well, coming up, Ching Hee Hwan is going to be here. She is going to cook the perfect five-spice saucy chicken. Now, the wok is not simmering yet, but I'm hoping that the baby belling will be flat out in just a few minutes' time. And if you didn't catch Monday's programme, we bust some of the biggest myths surrounding the morning-after pill.

And we looked at why women don't know more. If you head to the Women's Hour website now, you can read about that and rounding up all of the things that we learned about emergency contraception from our panel, whether it's safe to take the pill multiple times, for example, and why it sometimes doesn't work. It's really worth a listen. I certainly was surprised by some of the things that I learned, and that's on our website now. Now, we'd also like to hear from you if you won

something this year. Perhaps it's an award for some work you've carried out. We'd like to know what it meant to you and how did it make you feel? Now, what if Juliet, instead of taking her own life at the end of Shakespeare's tragedy, had decided to simply, well, move on? It's the premise of a new musical, And Juliet, and it's just opened in London after a successful Manchester debut. Anne Hathaway, well, Shakespeare's wife, has come down from Stratford for a rare big night out ahead of the performance, and she's

gutted to find that the end is so, well, bleak. So she insists, before the play opens, on a last minute rewrite. Well, both Miriam Teak Lee, who plays Juliet, and Cassidy Jansen, who plays Anne Hathaway, joined me and I began by asking Miriam Teak if the musical works for everyone, whether you know the play or not. It's absolutely for everyone. There's little references here and there. So if you do know about it, you'll get those little that humour and stuff like that, which will be amazing. But otherwise, you still really enjoy it as a show in its own right. Now, Cassidy, you play Anne Hathaway and she has pretty much a starring role, one that Anne did not have in real life.

And you make the most of that, don't you? I do. I feel very, very honoured that David Westreid, the writer, decided to sort of, she's evolved a bit since the workshops and she just becomes this mum on a night out, she writes herself into the show, it gets very, very silly and she is a joy to play. It's really lovely to play so many aspects of a character because normally

if you're the funny character, you're just funny and she gets to have a lot of pathos as well and do a little dance, a little tango. And it's just gorgeous. I feel very blessed. So will Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway kind of frame this play? Because right from the beginning,

the fourth wall is broken down and you bring the audience in. We come on and we're just chatting away to the audience and sort of, you know, explaining the premise of the show which is me and Will are going to pass the quill back and forth and rewrite the ending of Romeo and Juliet

and Juliet has this empowered story now and it all gets a bit silly and Will starts writing stuff behind my back and not telling me and it goes off piste but underlying all of that, I don't think this ruins the plot there's a little bit of underlying tension between me and Will and that comes out at the end of the show that we have some unresolved issues in our marriage.

It's been referred to as a fun tale of female empowerment. Is that how you feel about it, Miriam T? Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, the women in this show are so strong and like to hold the reins and be in the driving seat of their own life. Juliet has Anne really steering her. I mean, she writes herself in as April,

so she has April, her best friend, steering her and helping her kind of find this excitement in her life and in self-love. She has her best friend, May, who is so sensitive and makes her think about things in a complete different way. She also has her nurse, who she's had from the beginning of time, but is also one of her best friends. So it's really like this beautiful friendship group

who bring out the strengths in each other and just help each other on this journey. Now, let's talk a bit about the use of music because it's the back catalogue of Max Martin. And whether you know him or not, you absolutely know his songs. There are loads of big pop anthems in this. Your first song is a rather dark rendition of Britney Spears' Baby One More Time.

Yes. I remember the first time I heard how they slowed it down and I was like, this is incredible. I just love it. It was so different. It forced me to listen to the lyrics and it created a whole new meaning for them. And I think it works.

It certainly does. Because, I mean I've heard that song a number of times I never really thought it would was appropriate for basically you're on Romeo's coffin exactly and then we heard the orchestrations that Dominic had done and Bill Sherman had done and they've made it it's called I call it dramatic pop I think that's the only way to describe it. Yeah. Beautiful strings, orchestrations. It's really stunning. Exactly.

And you don't get strings usually in pop music. So when you get that, it really, it's like a whole new feel. It's beautiful. Oh baby, baby, how was I supposed to know That something wasn't right here Oh baby, baby, I shouldn't have let you go. And now you're out of sight, yeah. Show me how you want it to be. Tell me, baby, cause I need to know now.

Because my loneliness is killing me Cassidy, you sing I Want It That Way from the Backstreet Boys again in a way that no one's ever heard it before. I never thought I'd sing that song. Yeah, and this is where you go to think about David Westreid again. How did you write a plot that I Want It That Way would work? David Westreid wrote the book of this play, wrote the words, essentially. Yeah, yeah.

He wrote this script that went into I Want It That Way becoming essentially, not an argument, but a discussion between William and Anne trying to write the show a different way. And it works brilliantly. I remember him saying, actually, that him and Max were talking, and they said that in this song, he was like, in a way,

the song actually doesn't make sense because it's full of contradictions. And he was like, it's actually more than, it's not one person saying the same thing, it's actually two people saying two different things. And that's why it works so brilliantly. Yeah, it's spooky. Spooky.

I want it that way Am I your fire? The one desire Yes, I know It's too late I want it that way Tell me why Ain't nothing but a heartache

Tell me why Ain't nothing but a mistake Tell me why Ain't nothing but a heartache Tell me why Ain't nothing but a mistake Tell me why I never wanna hear you say I want it that way I want it that way The play is bathed in modern ideas of feminism and social issues. Is it Shakespeare for millennials?

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. Because Shakespeare was pop culture in his day. So that's what we're doing now. And he also played with gender, let's face it, quite a lot. And you do that today as well.

Oh, yeah, we do. The lovely character of May, played by Aaron Blair. Oh, what a dude. What a dude. He's amazing. But there is a very honest and open conversation there about gender identity, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

But actually, we never really put a label on that in this show at all. It's a social comment and there's not a message hammered home. It's just like commenting on what's going on without making anyone feel like they have to have an opinion. It's really beautifully done. Yeah, exactly. And you do, of course, have to brush aside

the inconvenient notion of underage sex that's in the original William Shakespeare. Juliet is what age? Is she about 13 or something? She's 13. That's ridiculous. You do tackle that head on though, don't you? There's a little line where we comment on it. That's ridiculous. You do tackle it head on, though, don't you? There's a little line where we comment on it, yeah.

I think, what do I say? I am not going clubbing with a 13-year-old. I have to say, I did mention, it is true that you don't have to know anything about Romeo and Juliet to enjoy this. If you do know a little bit about Shakespeare and if you know the play, there are a lot of in-jokes. It almost works on two levels

because I find some of it incredibly funny. And Cassidy, your character, Anna Hathaway, a lot of women, a lot of parents, mothers will relate to this idea that you've been stuck at home for quite a while and you're kind of thinking that your partner might have been having rather more fun than you've been having over the last however many years. So you've come out on a night out. Yeah, and I'm like, I'm going to have the best time with the kids and be cool. And I think at one point I say, I'm not leaving until I dance. And then the whole number starts and it all gets very silly. And I dance hip hop, which I never thought would happen in my entire life.

You do it very well, Kirstie. You do it very well. Thank you. Gosh. There is so much energy, Miriam Tika, by this performance. And I wonder, we as the audience, absolutely, we romp through these pop anthems. While you're there with all this cast, you look like you're having a fantastic time.

Absolutely. Is that what it's like backstage? Is that what it's been like putting this production on? Absolutely. Everyone has been so excited and so passionate about it it's just so incredible to finally get it up on a stage and share what we love so much about the show with audiences night after night but it's electric it's electric on stage we are having so much fun and we just hope that that translates to the audience it is

extraordinary like we all loved the show during the process. And then when we had that first audience in Manchester, we'll never forget that. Exactly, never. Because we knew what the show was, but we didn't know how it would be received. The audience didn't know what the show was. And it was like we found the show together and suddenly it just erupted in constant laughter. We were like, oh my gosh.

It was hilarious. We were like, we're not just finding rare maps. We're actually hilarious. And it was, oh wow. A we're not just funny, we're hilarious. We're actually hilarious. And it was, oh, wow. A real life moment, real life sharing. Yeah, I can promise you there was a lot of laughter in the audience when I watched it. And Juliet, possibly one of the most extraordinary, sorry, I'm calling you Juliet. Obviously, your name is Miriam Teague and not Juliet, but you know what I mean.

I think that was probably one of the most incredible balcony scenes that I ever saw. What a reinterpretation. I'm going to leave it there for anyone who hasn't seen it. But you do say when it comes to love, there's life after Romeo. So is there? The thing is, the real message is about self-love, right? Because I always think, you know, if you can't love yourself, how's anybody else going to love you?

And RuPaul always says that as well. And that's really really true so I think the whole time Juliet is really just trying to find that inner love for herself and yes she loves Romeo and maybe she won't be with Romeo maybe there's somebody else that she can find but whatever happens she will be able to have that self-love Tiger, a fighter, dancing through the fire. Because I am a champion and you're going to hear me roar. Louder, louder than a lion. Because I am a champion and you're going to hear me roar. Well, that was Miriam Teakley singing there.

And I can tell you, it is a great night out, complete with Dancing in the Isles. And Juliet is now booking through until next May. Now, as I have been talking, Ching Hee Hwan has been chopping, really, not actually cooking yet. But the wok is on and it's smoking. And you've got a very impressive knife there. That really is special. Just tell me a little bit about what you're making. Hi there.

I think I'd take my fingers off with that knife. Sorry, it looks absolutely terrifying. It's a Chinese cleaver. Yeah. So it's a pretty great tool along with the wok. And I've just prepared some garlic ginger chilli. So just finely chopped. And we're ready to wok, Andrea.

Okay. And this is a chicken stir fry. Yes. I'm going to make you my five spice saucy chicken stir fry. And it's so easy. So I was inspired to make, you know, Sunday roast. You've got the yummy gravy and a delicious sauce just laced over potatoes and vegetables. And it's very wintry and very warming. So I thought to make a delicious saucy stir-fry,

because stir-fries aren't just dry or like a chow mein dish. So this has got a little bit of sauce, and it's got lots of wintry vegetables like your savoy cabbage, Chardonnay carrots, some baby leeks. And we're using five spice to sort of bring out the flavours of the dish. And it's going to be a five spice, I can't speak, saucy gravy. This is from your new cookbook, Walk On.

I see you did that. I think that sounds particularly good with my accent. Walk On. I have to admit, and I know this is sacrilegious to even say this, but I don't actually own a wok anymore, which is terrible. I mean, I do make stir fries, but I kind of make them in a high sided frying pan. Do you need a wok?

No, no, no. You need a small base and deep sides. That is a proper wok. If you have a saucepan and then shallow sides, that's a saute pan trying to masquerade as a wok. And you're going to end up chasing your food around like this. OK, I see the difference. Everything falls uniformly into the centre of the wok. And the heat distribution is even.

It's made of carbon steel and you're going to get a delicious sear and smoke when you heat up the wok. Now, I used to live in Hong Kong and there there was a lot of street food and woks were, you know, were spitting and frying all the time on the side of the road. They were cooked at really, really high temperatures, though. And I'm not sure. I mean, that baby belling that we've got there certainly isn't um creating an awful lot of heat but even our normal gas cookers at home do they create the kind of gas that kind of heat that you need absolutely so the trick is to heat the wok up so it's smoking hot and um we've got this electric hob here at home I have induction which is sacrilegious to the traditional way of cooking on a wok, which is supposed to be gas. And in the restaurants, they will cook 600 degree flames, really high, and the sear is very powerful,

and you cook even quicker. But at home, you can achieve that same guo way, the smoke, the flavour of the wok. The breath of the wok. The breath of the wok, exactly. And I'll show you the tricks to doing that. So it's really about getting the wok super hot then i think you i think you've got your work cut out for you with that baby belling today you

know what i i first experience for everything we've got a fire officer in the corner of the studio i'm not sure that we need him i can't see any smoke at all coming off well it smells good already okay so uh heat the wok nice and hot then I think he's quite hungry. Well, it smells good already. So, heat the wok, nice and hot. Then gather your garlic ginger chilli, which you mince up, okay? Now, before we do this, the main thing is have your mise en place already, because once you start walking, you have no

time to stop and chop. So, prep is key. Absolutely. And the prep is very simple. Delicious chantenay carrots, just topped. Some savoy cabbage leaves we've shredded some baby leeks just finely chopped and then some chicken breast strips which we're going to just season with a little bit of five spice and in there is a pinch of salt and pepper and then all we do is give this a good little mix now to keep the chicken nice and bouncy and juicy because as it sears it's

going to lose moisture we're going to add a tablespoon of corn flour just a little dusting and the corn flour just acts as this kind of protective layer so it seals all the juices of the chicken so we don't want to lose that you see and then all you need wok smoking hot a nice tablespoon only a tablespoon of oil is needed all right and then we're going to just give the oil a swirl and you can see that smoke Andrea yeah I can thankfully I can nicely see some smoke garlic ginger chili oh brilliant and you hear that sizzle and so we're going to just put the extraction on now garlic ginger chili the holy trinity of Chinese cooking. So this is the basis of every good stir-fry, right?

Absolutely, and good taste as well. And just a little sizzle, three seconds, in with chunky vegetables. Because the Chantilly carrots are quite chunky, those go in first, together with the chicken. And usually proteins first, so whether it's beef strips or chicken strips or you know mushroom just thinking of you know if you've got teenagers in the house who are not meeting eating meat or anyone who's a vegan you could actually change the the chicken for say mushroom right nice chunky shiitake mushrooms trumpet mushrooms are gorgeous sliced tofu smoked tofu uh there's so many options you know my husband is vegan so i cook a lot of vegan dishes at home and the beauty about chinese cooking is that the ingredients are interchangeable so the basics are there you know

for the method of garlic ginger chili then proteins and then the rest of your vegetables but the main important thing here is when you're cooking meat is you want to sear and you want to garlic, ginger, chilli, then proteins, and then the rest of your vegetables. But the main important thing here is when you're cooking meat is you want to sear and you want to hear that sizzle. Can you hear that sizzle all throughout? I certainly can, yeah. I hope you can hear it at home. Not only is it sizzling, it's smelling fantastic. Brilliant. I'm glad. And the trick is really to keep the heat high because as, and that's the trick about heating and whacking the heat up high at the beginning. People are afraid. But the problem is when as and that's the trick about heating and whacking the heat up high at the beginning people are afraid but the problem is when you add each of the ingredients in the temperature falls and you lose that

sizzle and sear so at this point we're just going to give this a good stir I'm going to cook it for a good minute and then we're going to season now just with a little bit of soy sauce on the chicken just to kind of give it some flavor and color because color and browning is flavor so we're just going to give that a quick stir just while you're doing that i'm interested ching you actually left taiwan when you were very little and you grew up in south africa and i often think that that emigres really value their food the food from home perhaps more than people who live there and get to eat it all the time well I you know I think so that's my excuse for being a Chinese food addict because I left Taiwan I was very young and you know my

mother would always cook me dishes you know that we'd have on our farm in southern Taiwan, which my grandmother cooked. And she was an amazing cook. And I think it just makes you reminisce and you're nostalgic for flavors of home. And you try and recreate that. But, you know, when I was growing up in Britain, I just wanted to be blonde haired and blue eyed when I was growing up. I just wanted to be like everyone else. I didn't like my Chinese identity, but I've grown to love it.

And now I cook Chinese and I teach Chinese food. And, you know, it's an absolute pleasure. Wonderful. Well, that smells incredible. I'm going to leave you to it just for a minute because we're going to go to our drama and then we're going to taste it afterwards. Well, in tomorrow's episode, Will returns from Rome.

I have to tell you, I am sitting here with the most amazing plate of Chinese stir-fry in front of me. It's absolutely delicious. In fact, I've just swallowed a huge mouthful of it. Ching, fantastic and really easy to do. And the cabbage in this almost tastes soft like noodles. Yeah, it's so

soft. So we had some time and love in the wok. So after the chicken went in, the leeks, the savoy cabbage went in and a quick sauce made of stock, vegetable stock, light and dark soy sauce and a little bit of corn flour at the end just to thicken and bring it all together. That was Ching Hee Huang. Now, we've got a lot of response on Twitter. First of all to Sasha Wass, who was our our QC who was talking to us today. This one says, I've just got home and turned on the radio to hear the barrister saying that she's been offered but not taken up the offer of counselling.

I saw one of the prison officers who'd been responsible for Rose West before and during her trial. This lady had been badly upset by the experience. She believed the accused to be innocent and needed many sessions with a psychologist and we got a lot of response to our discussion about receiving and reporting indecent images. This contributor says I work with digital devices and indecent images for the police and it's not easy to have or place an image on a mobile phone without knowing it. As a senior police officer if you receive something and don't report it, you are complicit in sharing that image.

This is basic knowledge that every police officer should have. I fully support the prosecution of this. If you didn't, then you would be treating members of the public differently to police, as people are often prosecuted for this. I don't necessarily agree with her going on the register. And Masai has gotten contact to say the Robin Williams child sexual abuse case is entirely repugnant, more so because it does have very clear elements of racism. Two of the 17 people reported the video, 15 didn't. There were three prosecutions, all of black people. And Karen has also said, shocking that this case is being prosecuted and frankly will deter large swathes of the BAME community from joining the police.

Ludicrous. And now moving on to And Juliet, our musical. Paul said that he just heard a snippet of the song from And Juliet, a redo of Britney's Baby One More Time. Loved the addition of strings. Well, tomorrow, do join Jane. She's going to be talking about sex life in your 40s. Now that sex is less about the biological clock, has it become more pleasurable?

We're going to hear from a psychosexual therapist and couples counsellor, Kate McKenzie, from Samantha Evans, who is a sexual health and pleasure expert, and Janet Barter, a consultant in sexual and reproductive health. And two weeks today, the UK will go to the polls. In the first of a series of interviews with party leaders, Jane talks to Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. Hi, everybody. I'm Caitlyn Jenner and I am a guest on Simon Mundy's Don't Tell Me the Score podcast. We talked about everything, the Olympics,

trans issues and all the lessons that I have learned along the way. I really enjoyed recording the podcast and I hope you enjoy listening to it. You can hear it on BBC Sounds. Just search for Don't Tell Me the Score. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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