Woman's Hour - Misogyny in the music industry, author Lisa St Aubin de Terán, cervical smears

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

A new report comes out today by the Women and Equalities Select Committee about the serious problems faced by women in the music industry. To tell Emma Barnett what's in it is the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee and Conservative MP Caroline Nokes. Emma also gets the reaction of academic and business research consultant Vick Bain.Sky Sports presenter Jo Wilson has been gracing our screens since 2011, but what you might not have known is that Jo has also lived with Stage 3C cervical cancer. After a difficult birth experience in 2020, she was reluctant to book a smear test, but convinced herself to do it 19 months later leading to her diagnosis. Her treatment was successful, and she is now speaking out about her personal experience in a bid to encourage women to take up their smear tests. NHS data shows that almost a third of women in England did not attend their test last year. Emma speaks to Jo and to Theresa Freeman-Wang, consultant gynaecologist and clinical advisor to Jo’s Trust.After 20 years of silence, prize-winning author Lisa St Aubin de Terán is back with a new book. Aged 16, Lisa married a Venezuelan landowner-turned-bank robber; she eventually ran away from him with her young daughter only to end up trapped in a castle with the Scottish poet George MacBeth. From there she eloped to Italy and in 2004 she settled in north Mozambique, establishing the Teran Foundation to develop community tourism. She lived there until 2022 when a cyclone took the roof off her house, and returned to London with a bag full of manuscripts including her memoir, Better Broken than New. She joins Emma in studio.Last week we spoke about the record low birth rate in China as the country struggles to revert effects of the decades long one-child-policy. Today, we turn our attention to Japan. The population of the world’s third biggest economy has been declining for 16 years. An ageing workforce, combined with the country's strict immigration control, has, among other things, led to significant labour shortages. Could women be Japan’s hidden asset? Emma speaks to Moeka Iida, The Economist’s reporter and researcher in Tokyo.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope you're having an excellent start to your Tuesday, wherever you're joining us from. Let me ask you this though, how's that to-do list looking today? Mine's ever longer. Shortly, you will hear from a woman who wants you to call

the doctor if you've been putting that one off. We'll also be hearing from the author destined for great things on the literary front and instead lived a life that could rival a writer's imagination. And we'll learn why women could be the secret to solving Japan's economic and social problems. But first, only four weeks ago, cast your mind back to the beginning of January, we were told it was a golden time for women in the British music industry. Headlines screamed about how 2023 had been a record-breaking year for female musicians. Women spent an unprecedented 31 weeks at the top of the UK singles chart, accounting for a record seven of the year's 10 biggest singles and more than half of the overall top 20. So the picture was looking

pretty rosy, especially around the world, not just in the UK, I should say. And yet, and yet, a new report out today by MPs makes for grim reading, simply called Women and Misogyny, looking at the music industry and based on the testimony of women of all levels and backgrounds working in classical music through to pop, states women working or training in music face limitations in opportunity, a lack of support, gender discrimination

and sexual harassment and assault, as well as the persistent issue of unequal pay. It is striking that something that gives us so much pleasure is made in a way that is causing so much pain. Music, the thing that gets you moving, that maybe makes you feel like you can do different things in your life, certainly gives me a reset quite regularly. What is also striking is how many women working in the music industry do not feel, it seems from this report, and a lot of the people who gave testimony were anonymous or had signed non-disclosure agreements, something we'll get to, so couldn't give all the details,

but they don't feel they can speak out due to the freelance nature of their contract. So today, even if you don't work anywhere near the music industry, I wanted to give you the opportunity to say something that has happened to you at work, courtesy of a male colleague, that you have nowhere else to put. And don't feel that you can say anything to anyone about. You can use this space here at Women's Hour to do that today. If for whatever the reason, it just isn't possible. You do not need to use a real name. I always say that. Please don't use theirs. And if you can, keep it brief so I can read as many of your messages as possible. What has happened to you at work in light of being a woman and perhaps there being power imbalances, or even maybe you are in charge, but you're still talked to in a different way, or you're very far from being in charge, but you can't let that job

go and you're being treated differently because you're a woman, text me here. Most of these examples I have to say are at the hands of men or the comments are from men. There may be other situations, but do get in touch if you want to share a story or an experience that you haven't been able to put anywhere else, if I could put it like that. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website or use the WhatsApp number 03700 100 444. Back to this new MP's report about the state of the music industry and women. The musician Rebecca Ferguson, you'll remember she rose to fame on The X Factor, she's given evidence to this committee of MPs and had this to say earlier to my colleagues on the Today programme about the difficulty of reporting inappropriate behaviour. The cost is your job.

You know, if you do speak out, then it will cost you. And a lot of the women that wrote to me said, you know, I wanted to report this particular AP, he's very powerful, but I knew that I would never work in the industry ever again. And I've wanted to do this since I was a little girl. And there's no guarantee that anyone would believe me. So that is what a lot of women are dealing with, is the gamblers. How am I going to pay my mortgage if I report this man?

How am I going to be able to make ends meet? What will I do to make money? And that's the sad reality that we're faced with at the minute in the music industry. Rebecca Ferguson, just before coming on air, I spoke to the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, Caroline Notes, I should say on a slightly glitchy line. She's in charge of the committee that put out this report. And I asked how she felt about the findings given how well women are currently doing in music. Look, let's not take it away from the successes. There are brilliant, creative, talented women out there.

But tragically, there are many others who are being shut down, denied opportunities, sexually harassed and abused. And that's what we have to stamp out. What testimony has stuck with you from this? There was a wide range of testimonies, both given in public and some in private session. The ones in private session will haunt me forever because they came from classical musicians. They came from students at music colleges who, on the way up in their careers, had endured the most horrific incidents, including some tales of only being offered work if they were prepared to give sexual favours,

and also the testimonies from women who had non-disclosure agreements who couldn't talk about the specifics, but could give us a picture of the terrible things that had been done to them. And then they signed non-disclosure agreements, were paid to go away and the perpetrators were protected. And you commissioned this report, just remind us why? Well we were looking at misogyny across a whole range of sectors and what came to our attention was that

in sectors where women might be on insecure short-term or freelance arrangements, it was much harder for them to speak out. So we looked at the music industry really widely and were absolutely horrified at the incidents of sexual harassment and abuse that are still going on. So this is why you looked into the music industry and was it worse than you thought it was going to be? I think what really shocked members of the committee was we'd anticipated it being bad.

We hadn't even guessed how bad it would be. But I think what was really shocking was there was a sort of a blind assumption that this would be something that was a problem at music festivals in sort of pop music. Actually, some of the classical musicians had suffered the most. Were there any ways that they could try and seek justice? Had they tried to seek justice? What did you hear along those lines? What we heard was that women were afraid to speak out. And look, the establishment of the Creative Industries Independent Standards Authority is a step in the right direction.

We have huge hopes that that's going to give that reporting channel that women will be able to use to highlight incidents of abuse and harassment and it will be able to crack down on them. The stark reality is there's a power imbalance and we know that harassment is driven less by sex than it is by power and there are still enormous numbers of men at the top of this industry who have power over women's careers and we want to see those same companies, the record labels, the promoters, publishing diversity statistics, making it clear that they are giving employment and career opportunities to women as well as men,

and really grasping this, recognising there's a problem, and making changes. Caroline, some of what you've described is illegal. What do you say to those who are listening who think, what's going on where people, women in this instance, can't report such instances to the police? Women are afraid. They're afraid that they won't be believed. And they're afraid that in reporting incidents like this, their career will be negatively impacted forever. They also, the self-employed don't have the same protections from harassment at work as employed people do. So we're asking the government to look at that. Freelancers and the self-employed

need help and they need to have the correct channels and support to be able to report with confidence. They don't have that at the moment. And my big concern is that there's a culture of silence. There's a culture of, to be frank, men in power getting away with it. And that's what we need to address and to do so urgently. You have made, this report rather, has made 34 recommendations. What do you think will change or needs to be atop of that list? I think non-disclosure agreements, they're a huge problem and they are being used to silence women and to protect perpetrators. The government has done some great work around the use of

non-disclosure agreements in higher education. They need to go further. There can be good reasons why NDAs are used to protect commercial sensitivity, but they should never be used to silence victims of abuse. And of the men? I mean, I don't suppose you heard from anyone who had been accused per se, but what is your view as to why we have had the Me Too movement? We've had other moments. We've been told in other industries, why does this not seem to have reached the music industry? Why do the men seem to that have been spoken about behave like this? Well, only they can answer why they behave like this. The stark reality is, is that we need male allies, we need the good men, and there are plenty of them to call out and address bad behaviour and conduct when they see it. And we need to have a situation where nobody of any gender is turning a blind eye to this

because it's continued for far too long. It's impacted women's careers. And to be frank, we need to get it stopped and stop now. Do you think there's anything specific about the music industry? I think there are some factors. So firstly, it's the insecure employment, the freelancers. Do you think there's anything specific about the music industry? I think there are some factors. So firstly, it's the insecure employment, the freelancers. It's often late at night in insecure venues. We've called for there to be better regulation around venues.

And sometimes it is fuelled by both drugs and alcohol. Caroline Oakes, are you optimistic that this can make some change in an industry to which we owe so much culturally and we get so much joy from? I have huge hopes for CESA. I think that will bring about change. And I also think that culturally there is a shift and we will continue to make progress.

But it has to happen across a whole range of sectors, sadly, not just music. Caroline Oakes, the Conservative MP and chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. We're listening to that Vic Bain. She's the founder of the F List for Music Directory of Female Musicians, which is a not-for-profit organisation campaigning on behalf of female musicians in the UK.

And she also gave evidence to the committee, so has of female musicians in the UK. And she also gave evidence to the committee. So has informed the outcome of the report. Vic, good morning. Good morning. What is your reaction to this report to what they've put together? Well, I'm delighted. You know, I couldn't couldn't believe just how excoriating it was. It validates everything we've been campaigning for and saying over the past three years. What do you think, if there was a story for you that stands out, again, for those listening who are nothing to do with the music industry and want to try and imagine

some of the worst to try and put this in their minds, what's the story that stands out for you? Well, I think it's the testimonies about the non-disclosure agreements. Music hasn't had its public Me Too movement because women are, you know, silenced. We can't talk about our experiences. And when we do, there's backlash and reputational damage. So it is a culture of fear. A culture of fear. I mean, in terms of we heard it's from classical through to pop and the idea that you could be in a room with someone having had a difficult situation with them through to abusive.

And then you might be sitting next to them at an award ceremony. Exactly. The perpetrators aren't removed in many of these circumstances. They are still successful in the industry and supported by privilege around them. I'm also doing a PhD looking at women's careers in music and everything in this misogyny report is mirrored in the testimonies of 50 women who I've spoken to over the past year. A message that's come in here we're getting lots of other messages about other industries but one that says I've been a professional singer in the music industry for over 30 years three decades of rife misogyny groping being paid less than men and expected not to age has gradually worn me down I hardly sing sing anymore. Exactly. Ageism is a shocking problem. It's really acute for performers. How often do you see a middle-aged or older-aged woman performing

in festivals, on television? Not very often. And it's also the case for women working in the business side as well. I suppose it's just confusing in some ways for people to hear about this because as I said about music bringing joy then they'll think of perhaps an older performer like Madonna and then they'll think about the charts and what we were saying about how well certain women are doing at the top of music. It's hard to put that together and also a bit like if you know a garment hasn't been, or you suspect a garment hasn't been made well, and you can have different feelings about then buying that piece of clothing.

It's hard to put that together with some of your favourite songs, how those who work behind the scenes may have had a terrible time. Well, I think the success of, you know, an individual such as Madonna does not balance up the experiences of thousands of women working in the music industry. You know, I think she's absolutely fantastic and a trailblazer. We need hundreds more Madonnas. Yes. And it's about whether that change can happen, which is what you're interested in. You know, it's one thing to account and have an account of what's been going on in this way that this serves in the work that you've been doing. Do you think some of the suggestions that have been made, we heard a little bit from the MP there from Caroline Notes, do you think they can have that impact?

Absolutely. I hope this is another wake up call for the music industry to take these things seriously. Government at itself and stop denying that there's a problem here and work with us, work with campaigning organisations such as the F List and let's make positive change. Where are the music industry this morning? Try to get them on. It's very hard. What's your view on that? Well, over the years I've heard a lot of denial a lot of diminishing uh you know a lot of a lot of arguing oh thing you know things aren't that bad

things you know i i heard i heard in fact that oh we can't we shouldn't be using the word misogyny it's not it's not good pr for the music industry. But these are the experiences that we have. So we talk about, just because we're not in the industry, I'll count myself with the majority of listeners probably, but are you talking about label bosses? Are you talking about the heads of universities? Are you talking about schools? Who are we talking about when we talk about denying

without names so I can legally proceed? I've heard this from label people and also from other representatives as well. Label people and representatives meaning agents and studio bosses? From other representative organisations. I don't want to get myself into trouble, but I've heard it from very senior people and people who are who are you know representing lots of lots of musicians I've heard I've heard this again and again it's not

that bad you you are wrong this isn't happening it isn't happening now it's something that happened 10 years ago but it is happening now and maybe the strength of this report an official report like this will wake up the music industry so that they acknowledge and can work with us and making making it a safer and happier place for everyone. Vic Bain thank you very much we did invite a number of companies and trade bodies to respond to the report none were available to speak to us this morning as of course it's difficult in some sense with regulation and perhaps shows the issues because there isn't an overarching body for the industry.

But we did get this response from BPI, the British Recorded Music Industry Limited. Misogyny in music and across society is completely unacceptable. This report contains some thoughtful recommendations and recognises that all parts of our industry have a shared responsibility to tackle this important issue head on. We're already working with the wider music sector to build on the progress our label members

are leading the way in making and in supporting the work of UK Music and the ongoing development of SISR, as the committee acknowledges, record companies have increased representation of women in executive positions and we are seeing more women as artists and in their teams achieve success. Let me give you a flavour of what some of you have been getting in touch to take the opportunity to share this morning is perhaps something that's happened to you in the workplace that you didn't feel you could put anywhere else. You didn't feel you could report. You didn't quite know what to do with it. It's that chasm between how something can look and seem

and then how it really is on the ground, which you could apply to music when, as I say, we heard all those brilliant headlines about how this was a golden age for women in the music industry. Four weeks later, we have a report, which is pretty difficult reading about the state of what it's like to be a woman in the music industry at all levels. There's one here that says, I'm a woman in the music industry at all levels and there's one here

that says i'm a woman who works in a chicken takeaway shop in south london i'm the only woman who works there i'm constantly being humiliated because of my large boobs every time a group of men come in and order chicken they're asked if they want leg or breast and if they reply breast all of the staff starts stamping their feet and chanting, they want breasts, they want breasts, says Stephanie. Incredibly sorry. It's a horrible situation to be in. It sounds incredibly regular that you're in that situation. Thank you for sharing that this morning and how it's very, very difficult for you indeed. A message here. My daughter is a medical student. She wants to be a surgeon, but has had incidents of a sexual predator nature from senior male surgeons she's too frightened to report these men as she will need

to be signed off by them and in medicine testimonials and appraisals are very important these episodes have turned her completely away from doing surgery she's now looking at dermatology where there are more female seniors well there was a big report at the end of last year about surgeons and a particular culture in that space. Another, when I worked in the horse racing industry, I was always cornered by jockeys in the stables, most of it when I was under 18 and a minor. In my late 20s, reads another message, I was working in a professional office environment. My boss would regularly get visible erections when I had meetings with him.

Sometimes he'd try to hide them by standing behind a filing cabinet, but often he wouldn't bother. Later, I would find out that this would happen to other young women he met. It was very distressing. Indeed, at the age of 26, reads another message, I was taken out to a work dinner by the much older COO, chief operating officer of our management consulting company. He asked me if I had a strong moral compass before intimating that the evening could go a very different way. It didn't. I'll end for this part of this and I'll come back to your messages on this one. My male CEO asked me when I was pregnant with my first child

if I was going to have a C-section because it was better than natural birth as, I'd stay tight down there I was so shocked and caught unawares I just awkwardly smiled and walked away yuck I can only imagine no name on that message the response that you've thought of since and perhaps wish you'd said or not maybe you didn't feel you could but those moments are exceptionally shocking and it's exceptionally shocking to hear it and share it this morning on the radio. Thank you for trusting us with that.

Keep those messages coming in. Just like women are reporting in the music industry to MPs, what do you feel you would like to say but aren't able to say and has happened to you in the workplace? Do get in touch. If you don't know the number, I'll just repeat it. It's 84844 to text or get in touch via the workplace. Do get in touch. If you don't know the number, I'll just repeat it. It's 84844 to text or get in touch via the website. You can email or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Now, to a woman many of you may know from her work in sports journalism, Jo Wilson is the

Sky Sports presenter who's been bringing us the latest in sports since 2011. But what you might not know is that Jo has also lived with stage three cervical cancer. After a difficult birth experience in 2020, she was reluctant to book a smear test. She's not alone. NHS data shows almost a third of women in England did not attend their tests last year. Jo joins me now. In a moment, I'll also be joined by Theresa Freeman-Wang, a consultant gynaecologist at the Whittington Health NHS Trust and clinical advisor to the cervical cancer charity Joe's Trust. Joe Wilson, good morning. Morning Emma. Thanks for being with

us. I know this matters to you to talk about this but let's go back because I know you did regularly attend SMIRS before you had your daughter. Yeah absolutely, just always got the letter as we all do through the post and always book my appointment. I mean, I'll be quite honest, perhaps not always on time. You know, we get that letter, it maybe sits in a drawer for a few weeks, a month or so, and then you get round to booking the appointment. And I know that a lot of my friends are in a similar situation. And what changed once you had your daughter? So I guess it just was not on my radar if I'm

completely honest and my smear test was due around the same time I actually got pregnant um I then obviously had my little girl Mabel it was quite a traumatic birth experience it was also I was living in Covid times so a lot of of appointments, I think, went out the window. But yeah, it just was not on my high on my list of priorities. I was absolutely exhausted, as a lot of new mums can relate to. And my main concern was just looking after my little girl. I just it really just it just was not on my mind at all. I think what's interesting is after you have a baby though you can also feel and please feel for as much as you want to and

talk about the birth situation but you can feel like you've been prodded, interrupted, interfered in your life and in your health and perhaps you don't want to have any more of that for a while. Yeah absolutely I mean I did have quite a traumatic birth experience I had a kind of four day labour where things just weren't progressing but I was just having very painful contractions for those four days every 10 minutes. I then ended up having a forceps delivery which yeah without going into too much detail you know involved stitching. Mabel wasn't breathing when she came out. So that was quite traumatic in itself. And yeah, I think absolutely it's just the thought of, yeah,

anyone kind of being down in that area of your body after you've gone through such a traumatic experience is not something that you perhaps want to happen. What was the thing that made you go and have this marriage in the end? So I, it's funny because, you know, when you talk about just listening to your body and I kind of just had a niggle where I thought there's just something not quite right here. In my mind, it was maybe just something to do with the birth experience. So I was like maybe they

haven't stitched me up properly like maybe there's just something not quite right there because of you know I've given birth to a child um and I also my periods came back when Mabel was about six months old and they were pretty heavy and quite close together so I'd actually spoken to my health visitor about that saying you know is this normal and she said yeah it's absolutely normal it's something that can happen when you have a baby that your periods can come back and they won't be the same as they were before you had a baby um but I just knew it just didn't feel right at all I thought these are too heavy they're too close together so I actually just booked an appointment with a gynecologist so just to get

a kind of once over as well as having my smear test and what was found and how did that happen so she yeah she immediately um said that it just didn't look right um she it was funny because again her her demeanor kind of she made me feel really at ease and everything but I could kind of tell when she was doing the exam demeanor kind of she made me feel really at ease and everything but I could kind of tell when she was doing the exam that she kind of oh yeah no something's not looking quite right here she then kind of cleaned up went outside let me get ready and then as soon as I stepped in the other room there was another nurse there I thought this is a bit strange because I don't know why there'd be another person there and she immediately just said yeah things don't look right I think you need to understand there

is a chance that it could be cancer so yeah obviously not what I was expecting to hear at that point but yeah within two days I was then I was back in hospital I had a colposcopy for further examination. And it was that consultant that came in after that exam and said, yeah, it's cancer. How did that feel at that time of your life, especially with a little on? I mean, I felt like I'd been hit by a truck, but I also felt very numb. But yeah, my first question was, am I going to die? And you automatically just start thinking about your little girl. And I just thought, this can't be happening.

I cannot leave this little girl without a mum. She wasn't even two. And yeah, it was terrifying. And treatment happened. And I believe you went back to work at the same time. So I actually, the treatment was, it was six weeks. I had radiotherapy every day, five days a week, chemotherapy once a week, and then finished with three days of brachytherapy, which is internal targeted radiotherapy.

So that was August, September time. I then went back to work in the December. So yeah, I took almost six months off. And how did you balance not quite knowing where you were going to come out of that and, you know, trying to carry on? Probably not particularly well. You just, you know, people used to say to me, oh, you're so strong. And I think, you know, I had no choice. You just have to get on with it. And I think for me, as terrifying as it was, the thought of leaving Mabel without a mum, that was kind of my inspiration every single day for just getting up, going to my appointments, having the treatment.

She, because she was so young she was so naive she didn't know what was going on so actually that really helped distract me from the reality of what was going on but um yeah I've kind of always been one of these people that just kind of gets on with things and um but you're also having to just contend and I think this is an important part of the story you're having to contend with the fact that your going into early menopause. I was given the option to freeze eggs and things like that. But, you know, I was 37 at the time. I thought, yeah, we kind of made that decision that we wouldn't do that because, again, you have to put off treatment.

And so time was kind of of the essence as well. So, yeah, I kind of came to terms with that quite quickly, but I think what I didn't realise was the actual kind of brutal side effects of just the severe brain fog, the anxiety, the hot flushes, the tiredness, the mood swings, everything like that. And that did make going back to work pretty difficult as well, because, you know, you know yourself when you're working on live programming, if your brain doesn't work, it's pretty, pretty tricky. Oh, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. Let me bring in Teresa at this point. As I say, consultant gynaecologist, Teresa Freeman-Wang at the Whittington Health Trust. Good morning. Good morning.

Where are we with women going for their smear tests? How does the picture look? Well, the picture as you painted does show that we have challenges because cervical screening coverage has reduced year on year for at least the last 10 years. And in the latest figures, less than 70% of women are attending for their smears. So we do have quite a lot of work to do to encourage people to attend because as you're hearing that in many and in our society, it's your biggest risk factor for getting cervical cancer is not going for your screen test. And what about the the link between after having a baby like we were just hearing and not thinking well I need to deal with that or prioritizing it? Well I think that's just

being human and obviously when you've just had baby, your baby and your health in the way that it's important for your baby are the things that are most important to you. So if you've been up to date with your screening up to that point, delaying things by up to three months or so until after you've had the baby is custom and practice quite usual again in this country because we've had a good screening program that over the years has been successful. And I think that increasingly there are for women who have had traumatic births or feel that things haven't gone as well. It does vary. So there are inequities in the system. But say, for example, in our unit, we do have a birth reflection clinic.

We do have access to professionals who can help and counsel women and provide support and remind them of all of these other things that are important. And because you can't have a smear when you're pregnant? Well, it's not that you can't, it's just not usual to do it. So, yeah, years ago, we used to routinely offer it to all women in the early stages of pregnancy. But it's technically more difficult to assess. And it's uncomfortable for women. And it was felt that if you've been well screened, delaying it until after the baby was perfectly safe. And just very briefly, key symptoms to look out for if there's anything that you should really know? I think it's important for women to be aware that if they're getting unusual bleeding, so outside of their regular

periods, if they're routinely getting bleeding after they're having sex, if they're having pain when they're having sexual relations, if they're getting pain in their pelvis. So these sorts of things, they are quite common symptoms, which does make it difficult. But if these are persisting, then it's important to seek advice from a health professional. You can get further advice from Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. They have an online website. They've got a free telephone service if women have anxiety. So they are a good port of call. And we do have this pledge from NHS England to end cervical cancer by 2040. What's your view on that in light of what we've just discussed?

Well, cervical cancer is a preventable cancer. So 99.7% are related to a group of viruses, human papillomaviruses, which we all get at some point. So yes, it's an excellent initiative. It was set up initially with WHO to eliminate by 2030. Australia and Sweden are doing very well in that regard. We have to mention the HPV vaccine as well, don't we, at this point? Yes. So there are three main areas. So there's HPV vaccination, which is available in schools from September last year.

It's a single dose to 12 and 13 year olds. If you're under the age of 25, you can seek advice from your GP practice because you are still eligible to get it for free. There is screening, as we've already said. Attending for your screen test is vitally important. And if there is an abnormality, then coming to a service such as the one we run here through a colposcopy service and have your cervix looked at by professionals. So it's important. Yes.

Well, Teresa Freeman-Wang, Consultant Gynaecologist at the Whittington Health NHS Trust in London. Thank you for that, because it's important to just lay out those basics. Just a final quick word from you, Jo Wilson. How are you today? I'm doing okay, thank you. Yeah, I'm coming up from my scan, which will be a year since I was told the treatment had worked. So yeah, a little bit anxious about that. But no, things are looking on the up. So yeah, I'm doing good.

Very happy to hear that. I mean, good luck for that. It must be nerve wracking each time, I imagine when it comes around. But thank you for talking on the programme today. Thanks so much. Jo Wilson there. We will, I'm sure, have some people who are listening

who relate to that and have things to say. But you've also been getting in touch this morning about experiences in the workplace where you haven't been able to say anything about something that happened to you or you didn't know quite what to do at the time this is because of this music report out today from mps to do with women's experience of the industry as a whole a message here while working as a secondary school teacher a senior leader at the school would regularly grope me once i was leaning over the photocopier

trying to fix it in time for my next lesson and he came up close behind, grabbed my hips and shouted, This took place in the staff room. Everyone knew what he was like and he behaved like this towards younger female teachers regularly. He was extremely powerful in the school. None of us felt it was worth saying anything in case he made our working lives harder. No name on that message. Another, when I was a trainee solicitor, I was asked to prepare a report at the meeting of about eight men and a partner said, get on the table, before I began my presentation. I was in my 20s and most of the men, mostly in their 40s, all sniggered. I was mortified and angry and decided to ignore him.

I gave my presentation, but I was traumatised by it. Another, I was working designing stage shows for various bands eight years ago. I was told by a male colleague, people would take you seriously if your voice wasn't so high. And another, I worked in a kitchen with a chef who would call me little girl. I was always so stunned by it.

I never knew how to respond. I supposed misogyny is just part and parcel of being a woman in the culinary trade. I left that job and I now work for the loveliest man. It's not hard to be respectful and not patronising. And so it goes on. Thank you for those messages. I'm terribly sorry that so many of you had those experiences,

but in a way, I think it's good to be able to share this morning on the programme together, something you may not have been able to say to anyone else, especially in your workplace. But let me tell you about who's just walked into the studio. My next guest is the prize-winning writer Lisa St Albans de Teran, who featured in a generation-defining list of authors in Granter magazine in 1983, a cohort that included Martin Amis, Pat Barker, Salman Rushdie and Rose Tremayne. Lisa's career trajectory, however, has been anything but

conventional since then, and she spent the last two decades living in northern Mozambique and not publishing any books. When a cyclone took the roof off of her house in 2022, she returned to London with a bag full of manuscripts, including her memoir, Better Broken Than New. Lisa, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being here. It's difficult to know where to start because there are a lot of stories in this memoir. You say, if I can just quote this, I've played so many roles over the years, a pseudo intellectual in London, on the run in Italy as a teenage groupie, lady of the manor in Venezuela literary circuit, a businesswoman, many more. Each role, you say, required costumes and props. A recurring prop was a big house, a castle or a ruined palace, and failing that, any old ruin will do. A recurring exit strategy was to bolt, leaving most of the props behind. Better to start a new life somewhere else.

How does it feel to be back in London, 70 years old, I believe living on a houseboat? It feels pretty good, actually. And yes, I'm living on a houseboat, so that's new for me. But I'm in Kensington and Chelsea, which is where I was actually born. So that feels rather sort of come full circle. A return in some ways. Why are you back? I came back to pick up my literary career, really, because I'd been 20 years completely out of it, living in the bush. I'd been writing several novels, my autobiography, two collections of short stories, but not publishing anything. And meanwhile, the agency that I was with had closed down and I just needed to come and be proactive, get it going. Had you missed being in the publishing world? Had you missed this circle that people thought you were going to spend a lot more time in? Well, actually, for about the first 10 years, no. And then after that, yes, I really did.

I missed, I used to do lots of readings and meet my readers. And I missed all that. I did. I really did. Life in Mozambique, in the bush, as you call it. Can you tell us a bit about that? Describe it? Well, the first year or so, I lived in a safari tent on a beach in a very, very isolated district. And then I... Not on your own, we should say.

No, with my then new partner, who's a Dutch cameraman, who was building a hotel, a barefoot luxury hotel in Mozambique. So I went to Mozambique as a groupie. You know, he was there, he was doing stuff I followed. And then I saw incredible poverty and the fact that nobody was in this area helping at all. There weren't any of the charities that you hear about and they weren't there, they'd never been there. So I started my own. And you also had a, you write about and they weren't there they'd never been there so I started my own.

And and you also had a you write about this but very very scary experience while you were there where you and your partner were attacked which. Yes that was when we we rented a house in a city some hundreds of miles away and there was a home invasion you know like you see on the movies but it happened to us. For hours I mean, you were sort of fighting off. Yeah, they took the wall down to get in. It took 23 minutes to smash down the wall into our house. And so for 23 minutes, we knew that there was this gang coming in. And they said in Portuguese, you know, we're going to kill you. So forgive me, I meant minutes that feel like hours. That's what I meant. Because that is actually a long time to be in that situation. It is a long time. And we kept calling,

calling the emergency servers. And they kept saying, oh, the number you have called could not be reached at the moment. Please try again later, because that's what you get with the phone lines there. But you really had to fight, you and your partner, didn't you? Yeah, my partner was very heroic. And actually eight of the people came in to the house and he fought them off. And he saved my life, really did. And his. He was quite badly injured, but he saved us. But I mean, you describe this as well.

It's very visceral, blood and all that went on. But you say, and I think this is an interesting moment for anyone, but you talk about until that moment you feel like there's an invincibility about oneself. And then you're in that moment and you realise there isn't. That was my reality check. I had never before felt that I was really at risk with anything. And I have lived a sort of different and slightly odd life, but always in a kind of in a bubble sort of way. And that day it was this is really happening to me

and actually they're going to kill us. How has your life changed, do you think, since, or your outlook? It's like waking up. It was very strange. So that had never been the case before. But afterwards, I just noticed a lot more things around me. One of the things I noticed was that a lot of people took advantage of the charity that I'd set up. So they say in the village, I swallowed the word no,

which I didn't used to have. But I became more selective about whose funeral we would be paying for in future. Big houses and Edwardian dresses. Talk to us about that, if you can. I was very shy when I was growing up in London. I was so shy I could hardly speak to anybody. So I sort of tried to express myself in dress. And in those days, the sort of maxi skirt was in. So there were quite a lot of people with the hippies. And I wasn't actually really standing out so much because a lot of people dressed quite extravagantly in London in the late 60s and early 70s.

But when I went to Venezuela, where such fashion had not arrived, they just thought I was barking mad. They just thought I was absolutely nutty to be wearing these dresses. And yeah, it was a problem when I arrived. And life in Venezuela, how would you look back on that? I look back on it with tremendous fondness. When I was living it, it was hard. It got easier, but it was very difficult. I was in the Venezuelan Andes on a semi-feudal sugar plantation with a schizophrenic husband and 52 families of peasant workers.

And I grew up in London. I didn't know anything about growing sugar cane or avocados or, you know, they weren't doctors and I had to sort of do medical procedures. And, well, that was pretty weird. I mean, I watched television. I seen some, you know, Dr. Kildare. I thought, oh, I'll try that one. In some ways you do sound fearless

throughout your life following different people and living such different lives and obviously it did provide in that instance inspiration for for your novel I think that um I became uh less scared I didn't start out fearless I was a complete wimp and that's the fact I became more courageous because life pushed me to make a decision be courageous or you know don't make it. That group of largely men that I talked about those those writers that you were kind of in a cohort with were you were you friends with them were you peers how did that work? Well I'd met Salman Rushdie before because he was a university with my then husband, George Macbeth. And I later became friendly with Rose Tremaine, who was absolutely lovely and a couple of the other people, but they had a sort of the most of the men had a clique.

And it was the literary clique and I was not part of it. I came from nowhere and had immediate success. And I think because of the fact that I was able to publish a new book right in the middle of that campaign, because I had a whole suitcase full of books waiting to publish, it gave me a kind of unfair advantage, which didn't endear me to those who were already at the top. You'll see this kind of upstart suddenly leaping up higher. But I was at the time married to George Macbeth and he was part of the literary establishment. So I got a little bit of an easy ride there too. It sounds like in some ways, and you've done so many things in between with your life, but it sounds like you're sort of almost back for unfinished business and coming back now with your book.

Because those names in some ways are going to be for some people more household names and what they've continued to do since that moment. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Yes. And for you now, are you trying to write? Have you got lots of books ready to go? I mean, what's the situation? Because you sound like you had a case full last time. I've got lots of books ready to go. I brought my suitcase full of stuff. And so, yes, in November, I'll be publishing a new novel,

The Hobby, and the following spring, probably, I'll be publishing another novel, which I finished writing years ago. And as I've also got two collections of short stories, I'll probably just put those on a blog or something when I work out how to make a blog work. Is there another adventure or you think this is it with you and where you live now and the houseboat or you never say never? It's good to have a peek inside the mind of someone who's lived all around the world and done different things. I'm not mad keen on adventures. I'm quite cautious. I try to avoid them i'm sorry i'm keen on having another one

the way i've just described your life you're not mad keen on it now or now now okay you know i've reached that point in my life when i would just very much not like to have an adventure okay well that's there you go it's good to get that good to get that sorted is is your is it from your background? Is it from parents? Where would you say it comes from? My father's a novelist and I grew up in, let's say, in a literary family. My uncle, Wilson Harris, was also a novelist. And from the age of about 12, that was what I wanted to to do wanted to be and um I think yes it must be a little bit in my blood because I've got three children they're all writers too so so it continues yes well all the best with it I do say it's um and as it's been described you know not quite in any way conventional the stories in here but definitely memorable the book's called better broken than new all the best with it thank you Lisa St Alban de Teran there and I'm sure some of you

will be very familiar with her work and there's more to come as you've just heard. More text messages coming in, thank you for this, about experiences at work and in different environments where perhaps you haven't been able to say something but you feel you can this morning. When I was a secretary in the 80s

in a huge company, sexism was accepted as normal. Apart from the usual sexual comments, men would sometimes grab my hands and shake me from side to side so they could watch me, quote, jiggle and would run their hands up my skirt when I put their cup of coffee down. I look back and I wonder why I didn't do something. It seemed you had no choice but to go along with it. It was a real boys club culture. And another one here, when I was in marketing, I had a much older male client who continuously propositioned me, wanted to buy me gifts and phoned or texted me multiple times a day in the evening and on

weekends. I now work in a bookshop. And while I now have an amazing boss, I am always upset by how many male customers think they're entitled to know personal information about me, or just feel entitled to my time. It can be hard to end a conversation with a valued customer even when you feel a boundary is being crossed. It's fascinating so many of these examples there aren't quite things you can do with them they're cultural as well as of course there's been some which are definitely harassment and would be criminal never mind anything else a breach of HR but it's knowing where to put them and how to talk about them. And you're doing that this morning with your messages. Thank you for those. But if you were listening to the programme you were with

me last week, you might remember we spoke about the record low birth rate in China as the country struggles to revert the effects of the decades long one child policy. Today, let's turn our attention to Japan, another country grappling with the same issue. The population of the world's third biggest economy has been declining for 16 years. An ageing workforce combined with the country's strict immigration controls has, among other things, led to significant labour shortages. But there might be a solution, at least a partial one. A recent article in The Economist suggests women could be Japan's hidden asset. The author of that article, Moeka Iida, she's The Economist's reporter and researcher

in Tokyo. Moeka, good morning, or good evening to you, I should say. Thank you for staying up for us. Good morning. Good morning. It's very nice to see you. Talk to us about how women could make a difference to Japan's economy, what you've been looking at. You know, so as you mentioned, like Japan is really on the leading edge when it comes to ageing and population decline. So we're seeing a lot of labor shortages at a lot of companies and workplaces. And also immigration is a separate topic. But Japan doesn't really open its doors to immigration. So more women are in demand, and they're staying in on the workforce. And I think we saw a lot of

changes during the Abe administration. So the former Prime Minister Abe Shinzo, who was assassinated two years ago, he promoted this idea of womanomics. I realize you've had Cathy Matsui, formerly at Golden Sax on the show, so she's coined this term, but Abe Shinzo really promoted this idea when he was in office. And so that's why we started to see a lot more women go back into the workforce. And it's had a lot of effect in some ways. So in 2022, the employment rate for women aged 25 to 39 went over 80% for the first time. And that's actually quite impressive. That's higher than places like America. But we still I understand an issue with women thinking, or some women, why they should go back after they've had their children, when they have to do all of the housework, because there

isn't an equal of sharing of domestic duties, when they have to do all of the housework, because there isn't an equal of sharing of domestic duties when they have to do all the housework, look after the children and have a job. Exactly. So I think women are still kind of in that dilemma of on one hand, wanting to be a good mother, and then on the other hand, wanting to do really good at your job. And I think there has been some improvements in recent years. So back in the day, there used to be a big issue with lack of nurseries and lack of access to daycare facilities. But the government has really seen that as an issue and really put effort into that. So there's been so there's these days, there's not that many children who are on waiting list to

enter a nursery. So that used to be a problem back in the day. So that infrastructure side has improved a lot. But I think, as you mentioned, there's still this very unequal division of labor when it comes to domestic work. So I saw some statistics that show a woman in Japan spend five times more time on chores compared to men. And I saw the gap was something like three times in Germany, and it's less than that in the UK. So we need to think about delegating that domestic work to men as well. Is that a conversation in Japan? It definitely is a conversation like this,

a discussion about encouraging men to take paternity leave. But I saw in 2022, there was only like 17% of eligible men who took paternity leave. And so and also, for women, it was 80%. So there's still not that many men taking paternity leave. And we also had cases where a cabinet member or high level politician took paternity leave. And that was a big, that was really big on the news, but he only took paternity leave for like a week or something like that. So it was highly symbolic. No, it's not. So in terms of the birth rate, though, because that is a very serious issue around the world, certainly in the economies, which we've been looking at, and it's an issue here in the UK. What do we know about that in terms of why women are not having as many children?

What are you seeing with younger women? You know, I think we're seeing a big problem with low fertility rates and population decline because we don't really have that environment where a woman can have a career and also form a family at the same time. And I also saw a survey that showed among married couples that don't have children, actually 80% want children. So there is a lot of desire among people to have children, but they just can't afford to do that because they can't have the time or the woman can't balance it with their work. Do you think there's a change in the air about this? Do you think there's a sense of urgency

in Japan and Japanese society? I think so. I mean, there's definitely a sense of urgency. So last year, the Prime Minister Kishida Fumio said something like, Japan is on the brink of extinction unless it solves demographic issues. So there is a really strong sense of urgency. But I sometimes feel like the direction policymakers are looking at could be a bit misleading or wrong at times. So they spend a lot of time talking about something like subsidizing IVF treatment, which is a good gesture. But it's not like women can't have children just because of biological reasons, but it's also more structural. It has to do with how there's so much burden for chores and child rearing.

It sounds like a lot of things coming together, which you've looked at across this. Moeka, thank you very much. Moeka Aida, the economist, reporter and researcher in Tokyo. If you missed our discussion last week about China, and in fact, there was some detail in that was astonishing about government officials in China and the entire government being male, have been sending text messages to women to try and encourage them to have children. And you had pretty short shrift for that approach. We've certainly imagined in the UK, if you got a text message from Rishi Sunak, what that would have to say to encourage you to have a child at all or have more children if you find yourself already with a child and not thinking, as many of you talked about, that you could handle or afford, quite crucially, to have another one. There are different approaches around the world.

Also in Hungary, Viktor Orban has nationalised IVF, for instance, and there are financial incentives. But there are also some issues around that of which we can discuss again at a different time and you can look up and see for yourself. Just coming back to a couple more of your messages before my time with you is nearly up on what has happened to you in the workplace or in different environments that perhaps you haven't felt you could say anywhere else. I wanted to give you that opportunity this morning. I'm a young woman working in sport. I'm amazed that I've regularly been the first woman in teams, in departments, and I struggle to be taken seriously. I've been dismissed,

called naive, too sensitive, not qualified enough. I feel a responsibility to younger women to stay in sport and fight to make it better, but I'm exhausted. Another, gender harassment in the choral music industry is more common than people think, with bad behaviour by men in power too often excused as the price of artistic genius. In quotation marks. I was the manager of a team of three, me five foot three and two men well over six feet tall. People, usually men, often assumed I was their secretary. We used to have great fun when they said, in answer to a question, that they would have to ask their boss. They then turned to me and asked me to make the decision. The faces on the other men were a sight to see. I bet they were.

Thank you very much indeed for your messages this morning. Some make for very difficult reading and some you're still in that situation. I'm very sorry about that. But thank you for trusting me and all of us with them. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. 30 years ago, Britain's farms were hit by an epidemic of an infectious brain disorder. They called it mad cow disease. I'm Lucy Proctor, and in The Cows Are Mad from BBC Radio 4, I tell the story of a very weird time in our history. The media started calling me the mad cow professor.

Mad cow disease rampaged through Britain, first killing cows and then humans. And the thing is, after all this time, nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from. The general feeling is that we will never know the answer. Subscribe to The Cows Are Mad on BBC Sounds. every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.