Woman's Hour - Misogyny on social media, How we choose MPs; Am I Normal with Sarah Chaney; Matriarchs - Zoe's nan

Episode Date: July 12, 2022

The online platform TikTok has become one of the most popular social media apps in the world, with more than one billion monthly active users. Young people in particular love watching and creating videos and the content is often funny and upbeat. But author and content creator Tova Leigh contacted us to say she has noticed more and more disturbing content on the site that encourages violence against women and girls.Following the slew of sleaze and misconduct allegations against MPs at Westminster is there an argument for a change in the way our parliamentarians are selected? Would greater scrutiny of individual applicants at an early stage avoid some of the issues encountered over the last few years and could it lead to greater female representation? Emma Barnett talks to the political journalist Michael Crick who has recently founded the twitter thread Tomorrow’s MPs which monitors political party selection processes, and to the former Deputy Chief Whip of the Conservative party who served as MP for Guildford for many years, Anne Milton.A few weeks ago we asked listeners about the matriarchs in their lives, the redoubtable women whose stories deserved to be told. We got so many great stories that we decided to hear some of them on air. Today, listener Zoe from the Peak District on her nan May Mythen. She had 15 children, refused to send her learning disabled son to an institution as was common in the 1940's and inspired her grand-daughter Zoe to be brave and try stand-up comedy.Normal is a term we bandy about all the time, but have you ever stopped to think about what it actually means, and whether it’s helpful as a concept? Sarah Chaney is the author of Am I Normal? The 200 Year Search For Normal People (And Why They Don’t Exist). She joins Emma to explain why she believes that women in particular have been hard done by in the history of the so-called norm.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. 8-0 is pretty good for the hosts in the football, so I just wanted to say congratulations to the Lionesses who have blazed through to the quarters in the Euros last night in the tropical climes of Brighton. More on those tropical climes shortly. On today's show, though, as a relatively small group of people consider who should become the next Prime

Minister, Conservative Party members, with two women coming out on top of the latest party poll, we consider how MPs even become members of Parliament in the first place. Are the right checks and balances in place, especially after the latest sleaze allegations? We will also be exploring whether the social media platform TikTok has a woman problem. And what is normal? Who has defined it? And how have women been included or deliberately excluded? But I also want to ask you today, how did you sleep? Was it hot? If you have a partner, were you anywhere near them? What is your technique in the heat? Let's help each other traverse these sweaty times.

We have talked before about women always feeling colder, certainly in offices, but we've also talked about women feeling hotter, whether that's when we're menstruating or going through the menopause. I spoke to one man this morning who told me his wife sleeps with a fan on 365 days of a year. All around the clock, all around the year, she has a fan on in the bedroom right next to her and it really doesn't agree with him. I personally love

the heat. I sleep pretty well in it. I am not cold for once and I'm going to tell you now, I still wrap up in the duvet and wear pyjamas. But let's not go back to that debate we had some time ago which I started about knickers under pyjamas. Experts are popping up across the media to tell us how to sleep in the heat. We're not used to it in this country. We don't do it for many days at a time. Apparently this is going to carry on

until the weekend. What are your tips? I am all ears. Let's talk to each other. 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. They will be charged those messages at your standard rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. But first, this morning, two women, as I mentioned, topped the latest poll of Conservative members in terms of who should replace Boris Johnson in number 10. It is a race that is heating up.

And perhaps they aren't the ones you expect. Penny Mordaunt, presently a trade minister, and Kemi Badenoch, who until last week was an equalities minister before resigning. Candidates are on people's minds, but how people become MPs in the first place and then rise to power is something we wanted to explore a bit more this morning.

Because last week, one of my guests, Dr Helen Mott, who helped create an independent complaints procedure for staff at Westminster, said she thought that psychological or psychometric testing used at an early stage of MP selection process could possibly avoid some of the incidents that have come to pass. The reason Helen and I were talking was, of course, because of the conduct of the former Conservative Deputy Chief Whip, Chris Pinscher, and allegations of his sexual impropriety, which ultimately brought down Boris Johnson, or rather how that was handled or not handled. Well, someone who used to have Chris Pinscher's job is Anne Milton.

She served as a Deputy Chief Whip in David Cameron and Theresa May's respective governments and was the first Conservative woman to hold the post. Also joined on the line by the veteran political journalist and commentator Michael Crick, who has recently set up a Twitter thread called Tomorrow's MPs to try and shed some light on the party political selection processes. Michael, I'll come to you in just a moment, but Anne Milton, if I may start with you, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Nice to be with you. Well, it's good to hear what you have to say about all of this. You left Parliament in 2019. And you did have to deal with some of the most serious issues of sexual misconduct, including giving evidence in the case of Charlie Elphick,

the Conservative MP who ultimately was convicted. Can I first just get your response to how the allegations around Chris Pynch were handled and your take on that? Not well would be my take, Emma. I think that it's hard to say when you're outside Parliament looking in, but it feels that it got worse. What you have to have in Parliament is somewhere that people trust that they can go to with complaints, which is what happened in the case of Charlie Elphick, but also somewhere that people can go to when they have concerns about people's behaviour. So not necessarily are we talking about actual sexual abuse, but people who are displaying what, for want of a better phrase, is risky behaviour. But it has to be trusted. You were the first woman, weren't you, conservative woman, to hold that post, I believe. Is that right?

Yeah, I believe I was the first woman ever to be Chief Whip. Ever? Okay. Yes. Although there had been Labour Chief Whips before that. Yes, absolutely. I wonder also, did that have an influence, do you think, in any way? People feeling they could come and talk to you? It might have been your character.

I'm not saying it's necessarily to do with your sex, but if you've got different people now starting to take those roles as well. I think it helps, Emma. I think it helped me that I was an older woman. You know, people used to call me matron. You know, if I went in the tea room, people used to say, oh, you know, stand by your bed. Here comes matron, which was an image I was happy to perpetuate really, because what I wanted to be was a trusted person who demanded high standards of behaviour from everybody at all times. And then, of course, you're dealing and you're talking about those who've already become MPs.

You're dealing with who's already there. And Michael Crick, good morning to you. Good morning. What about how they get there? Because this is what's taking your attention at the moment and you. Good morning. What about how they get there? Because this is what's taking your attention at the moment and you have some concerns. Well, I just think the whole process of the political parties selecting their candidates for Parliament is incredibly secretive. They tell us very little about who's on the short list or on the long list, what the vote was. It goes on with

extraordinarily little media attention these days. I mean, 50 years ago, it would get a bit of coverage in the quality newspapers. Now it gets very little at all. And local newspapers barely cover the selection of parliamentary candidates anymore, partly because there aren't local newspapers in a lot of places. And the ones that are don't really think it newsworthy. And so I think that there should be a lot more attention as to who the parties are thinking of. It should be made public so that that would then give the opportunity for members of the public to say, hang on a moment, that guy groped me in a club two years ago or that guy defrauded me. It would also give the party, the party members often don't get much say. I mean, before the last election, there were all sorts of last minute selections.

I went to one to replace Philip Hammond in Surrey. And when the party members, the Conservative members turned up that night, the first they knew about who was on the three person shortlist was when they came into the meeting. So there was no opportunity for them to say, well, you know about this chap here or this woman here. You know, tell me more. You know, there's no opportunity to ask around. And the parties themselves have become increasingly weak, it seems to me, at betting who becomes MPs. And these are not just the people who become MPs, but of course they're the pool of people from whom our governments

and ultimately our prime ministers are chosen. Yes, and that's why it's in our minds, especially at the moment, you know, how we've ended up where we've ended up and the list of potential replacements for the prime minister at the moment. And to come back to you, I didn't know this, to my shame. I hadn't looked into this as much as perhaps I should have done as a citizen, never mind as a journalist. I didn't know that you don't have to have a DBS check to become a candidate, to become an MP candidate. Anne Milton.

Yeah, correct. I mean, just because not, as you say, nobody really knows how it all happens. I think all the political parties have a pre-screening process. So prior to candidates being in front of the membership of the party for a particular constituency,

there is that pre-screening process. I think Michael's right. It's not very open as to what that involves but it should be really robust and it should have to be repeated. A DBS check is an obvious thing that could be done. A criminal conviction check just in case people aren't familiar with the part. Yeah if you've got a DBS check, and let's face it, in loads of jobs these days, you have to have a DBS certificate. So it's nothing unusual. It wouldn't solve all the place, but it seems to me that sometimes they don't take place. In 2017, for instance, Labour chose 24 people who went on to become MPs.

And that process was basically three people from the national executive sitting around a table and going through the CVs and looking at their applications. No interview, no speech, no scrutiny, really. And of that 24 MPs, well, one of them, Fiona Onasanya, ended up going to jail for perverting the course of justice. And another one, Jared Amara, who was elected MP for Sheffield Hallam, he turned out had serious mental problems, got into all sorts of trouble,

and he now is facing fraud charges. So it's very patchy, the vetting. And of course, the vetting may not work. I mean, you know, there are wrong-uns who haven't got criminal convictions. I mean, most of the recent cases there are people without criminal convictions in the past. In fact, none of them really.

Michael's right that, I mean, certainly when there's a general election called at short notice, a lot of that pre-screening goes out the window as the political parties scrabble around to make sure they've got a candidate. But actually, if you think it's important, it's important whether there's short notice or not. Of course. I mean, it's not all, as you say, about criminal convictions.

Just to say, about criminal convictions. Just to say Jared O'Mara left the Labour Party in October 2017 after allegations of sexual harassment and bigotry, sat as an independent until 2019, and on those fraud charges denies them. But yes, Anne, it's not all about that. And yet, I was just minded to bring up the criminal convictions of MPs while they're sitting. You know, yesterday, the Conservative MP Jamie Wallace

was found guilty of driving offences, has been fined and stopped from driving. On the Labour benches, Claudia Webb was convicted of harassment in 2021, the end of last year, and received a suspended sentence. She was a Labour MP, but now sits as an independent. If you get a criminal conviction, Anne Milton, as a former Conservative MP, but now sits as an independent. If you get a criminal conviction, Anne Milton, as a former Conservative MP, as a former Deputy Chief Whip, while you are an MP, should you be allowed to stay in the House of Commons? Well, I guess that to some extent is there are two stages. Would you continue to receive the Whip from a political party? Probably not. Whether you could be discharged from the House

of Commons, we have recalls still. And also, to some extent, I think that would be in the hands of the Speaker. But it feels it has got worse, because I think it has got worse. This didn't go on, certainly when in the 14 years I was in Parliament. But it does come to leadership. You know, I'm a big believer that this isn't terribly complicated. Everybody in positions of authority and responsibility in all the political parties, in government or out of government, has got to demonstrate the highest standards of behaviour and demonstrate that they expect it of everybody else. Do you think, Michael, if I may cut to Michael on this, do you think that's why it's got worse, Michael, that the leadership hasn't been there?

To a degree, yes. I think it's disorganisation within the parties. There isn't the scrutiny that there once was. And there's an element, I suppose, also, that the media scrutiny, that MPs have been getting into a lot more trouble than they used to in the past. I mean, more MPs, more than a dozen MPs or former MPs have gone to jail in the last 20 years. That's more than at any time, I would think, since about the 18th century.

Now, that's partly because perhaps the courts are being tougher on them because they are MPs and so on, and maybe institutions that in the past would have turned a blind eye. Now, that's partly because perhaps the courts are being tougher on them because they are MPs and so on. And maybe people, institutions that in the past would have turned a blind eye aren't doing any more. So that's good news in a way. As for the idea of banning anybody who's got a criminal conviction, it's difficult that because some criminal convictions are pretty minor. And indeed, most of the criminal convictions of MPs since the war have actually been what you'd say were political convictions. For instance, protests by members of parliament from Northern Ireland, for example, or people not paying the poll tax 20 years ago. I think some people would think, well, to ban them from parliament for that would be going a bit far.

But no doubt there'll be some who say that would be a jolly good idea as well. Anne, are you a fan of the idea of psychometric testing, which was raised by our guest last week? Well, I happen to know, so there's a difference, I think, between psychometric testing, although I'm no expert, and psychological testing, which is what your expert was talking about. So psychometric testing, I do have the skills for the job. I think the Conservative Party have done that for quite some time. Psychological testing, for what? I don't know. I've never wanted to be an MP. I'm interested to learn what that would be myself. I don't think it's workable, to be honest.

Michael, a word from you on that? Well, I wasn't aware that the concerted part of being doing the psychometric testing for a long time doesn't seem to do much good uh it hasn't rooted out all those people who have uh you know since being convicted or some of them gone to jail and uh no i think the danger with it is is who who does it is it the party is it the gut is it the state is the government um and does it work and uh I think whatever you, whatever, there will be doubts about it and there'll be controversy about it.

I agree with Michael on that completely. Let me read to you both as keen political watchers and a former politician, of course, this message that's just come in. To Woman's Hour, I wonder if anyone has gone out onto the streets of Britain

to find out whether people, to find out whether people know or care who the Conservative leadership contenders are. I feel there is a near total disconnect between the newspapers and the media, which seem to be tremendously excited about the leadership contest, and ordinary people who couldn't care less. Has any research been done on this? The point is there. Anne, what do you make about the sentiment to do with the replacement of Boris Johnson? And do you have someone you're backing as a former member of the Conservative Party? Well, I am a former member. I'm now actually in the lovely position of being a floating voter.

So I won't have a vote. But I mean, the public should care because this person is going to be running the country. And they all pay taxes and they all use the NHS and they use schools. And actually, it does matter. There is it does feel a bit of a frenzy, but I think from the media. But I can understand why, not least because of the circumstances under which this has come about. But you will know the candidates, some of them certainly in a way that the public do not. And who would make a good prime minister, do you think, even though you don't have a vote? I think, you know, there are qualities in some that stand out. Jeremy Hunt, because he's got experience, steady pair of hands,

after a rather shambolic couple of years. People like Penny Mordaunt, you know, she's got experience in government. She's a woman, she's, you know, a reservist. She's got quite a senior position in the Navy Reserve, I understand, understands leadership. Tom Tugendhat, the same, you know. So that's your bit of the party, probably, and those individuals. Well, it's not about policy. I mean, this is the trouble, that it's not just about policy. You've got to be able to lead. And I think what people want now is leadership. And they want all this to stop, all these scandals. They just want the country run well.

Anne Milton, thank you. Michael Crick, if you were a betting man, where are you going to place a bet if you could? Well, I think it'll boil down to a contest between Rishi Sunak and one of the Brexiters. You know, I think often it's the fresh candidate, the new candidate that wins these elections. And I think Kemi Badenoch is making an amazing, has an amazing momentum right now. And Penny Morden. It's got to be either one of them or Liz Truss, I think,

in the final runoff. But I'm not helping you there much, apart from reducing the numbers from 12 to four. I've probably got it wrong anyway. No, no, listen, reduction is good at this point. The field needs to narrow.

Michael Crick, thanks for taking the punt and bringing us your years of experience. It's good to hear from you. Thank you very much. Messages coming in. You talked about things boiling down. Well, there are messages about how you've been coping

on these hot nights. One from Philippa. Good morning to you in Cumbria. Regarding coping with a heat wave, move to Cumbria. It's cool and currently raining. Thank you. We'll relocate there tomorrow. Wife sleeps with the fan on. Turn the heating down 16 degrees to 18 degrees should be sufficient. Thank you. We'll relocate there tomorrow.

Reads that message right at the point. I put my hot water bottle in the freezer. It really helps me cool. That's a bit of a trend, I have to say. My tip during the heat wave, all the menopause, or if you're having both at the same time, fill a hot water bottle with cold tap water and take it to your bed with you. Lovely to hold or move it around the bed or maybe put your feet on it, says Catherine, who's listening in Newcastle-on-Tyne.

And another one here. I'm always hot. I sleep with a window open, radiators off. Oh, yeah. My goodness. We wouldn't be compatible. Ceiling fans are a godsend when it's this hot. I sleep on top of the duvet, but have to fend off my cat, Shadow, rather a busy evening. Another one here. I'll start to smell after a while. Maybe not. Have a damp tea towel draped around or over me. to smell after a while? Maybe not. If it's very hot, I can't stand having a fan on all the time. I keep the curtains shut, windows open, have a damp tea towel draped around or over me. Works very well. My sister puts her kids to bed covered in damp towels. What a mental image of the UK

I'm getting right now. Keep these messages coming in. 84844 is the number you need to get in touch. Now talking of images, a place where lots of people now spend their time is on TikTok, one of the most popular social media apps in the world. More than a billion monthly active users, young people in particular, love watching and creating videos. The content is often funny and upbeat. But one woman who contacted us and spoke to her own followers about this says she has noticed more and more disturbing content on the site that encourages and features violence against women and girls. Well, I'm joined by that woman now, author and content creator Tova Lee.

Tova, good morning. Hi, good morning. You are brilliant and very active on Instagram, on TikTok. The mission of that website, of that app, is to inspire creativity and bring joy, we're told. And yet you have found some things in particular that have concerned to inspire creativity and bring joy, we're told. And yet, you have found some things in particular that have concerned you about women and girls. Yes, and I agree. It is a very fun app and it is aimed at young people and it allows a lot of creativity. You know, unlike

other apps, you can edit your videos and obviously there's the music element and that's all fun. But I went down a really dark rabbit hole recently and just found really disturbing trends, one of which was a trend whereby young men were saying, imagine we went on a date and then and then the rest of it was basically very, very elaborated descriptions of how they would murder their dates. And these were videos upon videos of guys, you know, describing really horrific, basically crimes and, you know, domestic abuse and murder and everything. And it was presented as if it was comedy or funny, or I don't even know how it was presented. And, you know, some of these videos were really viral. You know, they they had been watched by a lot of people. And, you know, I I mean, I was mortified. And then I sort of shared it on my platform with my community because it's a lot of parents who follow me just to say, did you know this was happening? And I was I mean, they didn't know. I didn't know.

They didn't know, which is what prompted this whole campaign of trying to get those videos off TikTok. And there's one in particular as well, which I remember you sharing, and I hadn't seen anything like it before because, you know, a lot of people, you've got a lot of followers, but a lot of people also really interacted with your video that you made of this, your reel. But it's a video of

a boy ripping off girls' shirts. I should say that has already been removed from TikTok. But I know you were concerned that the same person had a video on his Instagram page. I'll come to the responses of the platforms in a moment. But it was very striking. Tell us about that, the ripping. Yeah. So, you know you when you talk about these videos that are i think really disturbing on the platform there was obviously the domestic violence and actual you know descriptions of murder but there was also a lot of videos that were verging on whether it was soft porn or just rape culture in general because it was really aggressive and basically what he was doing he was just ripping

tops off these young girls uh and also those videos got reported by myself and other people in my community and initially they weren't taken off the platform and there's a very uh we should say sorry if i just can but we should just say because we're describing in case people have never heard of this before it was like they're very fast videos aren't they so it's like a rip and then it cuts to another scene so no you you basically see girls standing in a line yeah and they approach him one by one and he rips their tops off one after the other so he what do the girls or the women do they're just they're like in shock that's it right and that's what i mean cuts. It's not like a film. These are quick videos where you sort of see something

and you almost have to watch it again, giving them more views, to take it in. Yes, yeah. And there were loads of those. So some of them were like in a swimming pool and they were all wearing bikinis and some of them were in the living room and there were such different scenarios.

Yeah, and that video, that specific account, which had over 10 million followers overall on TikTok, eventually got removed. But if I'm being honest, it only got removed after we got the press involved. When I tweeted at TikTok and and reported the videos, the feedback I received was that it didn't go against their community standards, which was very confusing to me. Because again, those two trends separately, one of them was, I would say, went under the bracket of sexual content, nudity, you know, all of that. And then the second one was definitely violence. It was promoting violence. So I couldn't really understand why. And then after we got the press

involved and they reached out to TikTok for a response, lo and behold, the specific creator was banned from TikTok. But like you said, those specific videos are also up on Instagram at the moment. Well, a spokesperson for Meta, the company that owns Instagram, has said women should feel safe everywhere. And we certainly want them to feel safe on our apps. That's why we don't allow gender based hate, misogynistic attacks or any threat of sexual violence on Instagram. We removed the content raised by the BBC as soon as we were made aware of it. That's in response to that. And in terms of TikTok, a spokesperson said misogyny has no place on TikTok. Content that promotes hateful behaviour and violence against women goes against everything we stand for as a safe and inclusive platform and will be removed.

Tova, stay with me for a moment because I want to bring in the BBC's technology reporter, Shona McCallum. Good morning, Shona. Morning. What Tova's describing there, and I've done this, not just with content that's concerning about women, all sorts of content and stuff sometimes that's even directed at me that's inappropriate, is that you take the time to file a report or whatever on these apps and then it's still there. That is an issue. And Tova's concern here is that she had to get the media involved. Not everybody can do that. What would you say to that, Shona? Yeah, and it's definitely a problem, a widespread problem. A lot of people have said, you know, they've used the mechanisms in place and unfortunately the content remains. And, you know, to be honest, it's hard to see that all of what we've described earlier

wouldn't fall foul of the TikTok rules and the community standards should come in just to kind of explain how that works and once something is flagged the TikTok content goes through technology which then shows them potential policy violations if it's identified to violate the community standards they say they automatically remove it, they flag it for additional reviews, then the team physically, people, not just bots, look at the content and then either remove the post, the account, you know, they can involve law enforcement if that's necessary. I think perhaps what's happened here is that this has not been picked up by the technology and, of course, until more and more people act on the accounts,

then they won't, you know, they've got a lot of accounts that are being flagged and reported. And I think the volume sometimes just doesn't get through to them. Yes. I mean, that's an excuse often used by these websites. And then the pushback on that would be the response on that would be hire more moderators, have some more humans and have a look across this do you think TikTok in particular it is new it's the newest kid in some ways on the block not the newest but one of do you think that uh that app and Instagram do you have a women problem well there's certainly been a lot of complaints similar to what Tova has raised. And, you know, there are a lot of different content that TikTokers are saying that they're trying to safely remove. You know, they say that they pride themselves on transparency. But, you know, one of the main complaints not only is that

sometimes this content isn't removed, but this silence, you know, we're saying we don't even have a response for them today. We don't even have someone on the programme. And that is very frustrating as well. Oh, it's very hard to get these people on the programmes. Very, very hard indeed. I used to work in your field as a technology reporter. To actually get somebody to interview is difficult, isn't it? Absolutely. You know, we've got... For communications companies, they're very hard to communicate with, even if you're reporting on them. Let me just bring you to the online safety bill back in Parliament today.

It's at the report stage and the Conservative leadership hopeful we heard about her a moment ago, Kemi Badenoch, was talking in a speech last night saying the online safety bill is legislating for hurt feelings. She doesn't support it in its current form. She's looking to be the next prime minister. How much support does this bill have? Is it fit for purpose? Well, one of the main reasons that the government would say that this bill will work is that they're going to be imposing tech firms with big, expensive penalties. And they think that the threat of this will spring them into action. Now, the legislation will be overseen by Ofcom. That's the UK's communications regulator.

And they say that they're going to have the power to impose fines of up to 18 million pounds or 10% of the company's turnover, whichever is higher. So they also say as well that Ofcom will, in extreme cases, be able to block websites or apps or even take them down. So it's the threat of this action that they think that the tech companies might make changes but the actual bottoming out of exactly what the tech companies will do kind of remains to be seen and I think that that's the difficulty this essentially you know is going to try and police the internet and it puts such a

duty of care onto the tech firms to you know remove all of this harmful content and they've broken it down and looked at all the different kind of bits of harmful content you know there's so much out there cyber bullying eating disorder content you know what is going to be um policed by this bill it is very hard and actually they've said that they'll criminalise cyber flashing, but they don't really go into violence against women in any great detail, which campaigners say is a big, big miss. We will see what happens with that. Tove Lee, I'll just give you the final word on this. I mean, you are, as I say, an avid user,

you're very good at it, if I can put it like that, with social media content. Does it put you off using the platform when you see this sort of stuff existing alongside yours? It doesn't put me off, but it, you know, I've never done a video like the one I did in response to that. And I, you know, it's really not the type of thing that I usually do. And I was very, you know, I felt like it was, you know, people really responded. For me,

it was about this platform is for children. It's legal for from 13 year olds. And I did a survey on my page and the parents on my page with no judgment admitted that 20% of them with children under 13, their kids were already on the platform. And I can tell you for my own children who are 11 and nine and don't have access to social media in our home, they have that they have they're exposed to it through friends. And also a lot of these videos are on YouTube, because people download them, and they put them on somewhere else. They don't just stay in one place necessarily. I think that concern about who else is seeing this and when they are younger is valid and one that we also hear from our listeners. Tove Lee, thank you so much for to come back to it. I wanted to read this message around heat from Jan.

Very grateful to Jan who's written in and working and lots of tips coming in about especially sleeping and how to keep yourself cool. And I'm also enjoying the fact I've been invited to move to Cumbria and now Scotland. Thank you, Barbie, who says move to Scotland. Lovely, warm, but not hot here. Jan says everyone worrying about being able to sleep at night should spare a thought for night workers struggling to sleep during the day. As a regular Woman's Hour listener, I also think it's pertinent to mention the number of maternity units, including delivery suites, without air conditioning. It should be obligatory for managers to hire in AC units to ensure a comfortable environment for all patients and staff within a healthcare setting.

Soapbox now stored. Jan, I am very grateful for that message. All excellent points. Your sleeping might be during the day. And I am now definitely thinking along those lines. Jules says, I'm lucky enough to be able to sleep in the garden. I'm loving the dog calling, Matt, I do too. More power to you.

Keep those messages coming in. I'm loving hearing how you're sleeping or how you're not and some of your techniques. Now, I mentioned matriarchs. We asked you, I asked you about it a few weeks ago, those women that come to mind when you hear the word matriarch and those stories that deserve to be told. We got so many responses from you that we decided to try and hear some of them on air. And today I'm joined by one of our listeners, Zoe, from the Peak District. And Zoe, good morning. I know you want to talk about your nan nan that's who came to mind when I said the word matriarch good morning yeah so my my nan she had 15 children which my mum was the youngest wow and she was just an amazing woman. She was called Maymythen. And on the surface, she would think that, you know, she was just like, she never didn't do anything amazing.

She was a cleaner, but she just got on with life. One of my uncles had profound learning disabilities. And in the 1940s, there was a lot of pressure on her to put him into care, but she didn't get any support and she just kept him at home. And he lived at home until he was in his 70s and he never went into care. And I grew up with him and actually he didn't speak till he was 30. And when I was born, I was told that we learned to speak together. Sorry, your line just went a little bit funny there.

I think what you were saying there is you were taught to speak together. That's how and when he began to learn. Yeah. So she was just, she was really stoical. She just got on with life. She never complained. She was really witty. She was really dry.

She was just, it's only in adulthood, really, that I sort of appreciate what a fantastic woman she was. She never, she wasn't like overly affectionate, but I never questioned her complete devotion to our family. She was just sort of the foundation of it all, really. I know also for you that you've thought more as you get, you've got older about channeling your inner Nan, as it were. What's that all about? What's from her that you feel has helped you? So a few years ago, I got diagnosed with a degenerative eye condition, which means I'm losing my sight slowly.

And I hadn't really realised, but when I got it, I think I did channel my inner Nan subconsciously because she was very, she got the most out of life. And I thought, actually, I've got two choices here. I can either, you know, like sort of be sad about what's happening or actually be grateful with what I've got and the finite amount of time that we all have. And so I took the leap and I've moved into trying to be a stand up comic. Like you do. Like you do. Totally, Zoe.

I mean, the show that you're now doing and I know your nan is featured in your show, is called No Such Thing As Normal. We're actually going to be talking with an author about what normal is in a moment. But why have you called your show that? Because I think when I was younger growing up, because I lived with my nan and my mum and my aunt and my two uncles, it didn't feel like a normal family. And I grew up in inner city Liverpool, and so it quite an unusual name I was desperate to be called Donna but um I was desperate to be normal then because I didn't feel it and and as I've got older I've just come to the realization that none of us

are normal we're all a big bag of lovely mess light and dark and actually we just have to embrace what we've got and I think my nan just getting on with whatever life threw at her, it's sort of really sunk in, but in a very subconscious way. It's never like gave me any big speeches. She just sort of, she just did it. Yes. You're living by doing and living by example in that way. How have you found doing comedy? I mean, it's not something one can

easily perhaps take to no well when I when I got my diagnosis I started off um writing comedy and I and then um and then as my visions got worse I've moved into doing stand-up because I can do that that more easily um I love it I really really, really love it. And actually, when I'm on stage, it's the one place where having poor vision doesn't affect me. I'm on a completely level playing field with everybody else because they've all got the lights shining in their eyes as well. So, yeah, I love it. And I feel quite free, really. And your nan's in the show. She features. She does, because she was a devout Catholic, my nan. And also, she liked all things blingy.

So I talk a lot about our house, because her prized possession was a life-size portrait of Pope John Paul II. But it was really special because it was 3D. His nose came out. That sounds like a lovely thing on the wall. If it was on the wall. He was there watching telly with us every night.

Yeah, he was. He was looking at us every night. And I had to dust him every Saturday. That was my job. The nose came out? Yeah, it's 3D. And you can still get them on eBay because I nearly got one for my show. You can get a 3D life-size portrait

of the Pope with their nose sticking out yeah they're about £29 right good

I'm really happy that we've cleared that up I've learnt a lot on this programme I always do Zoe it's so nice to talk to you

good luck with the remaining shows the show's called No Such Thing as normal but thank you so much for talking to us about your nan, the matriarch that came to mind. So many other matriarchs we heard about and hope to keep hearing about. Lovely to have you on the programme. I have to say, though, if you are thinking, am I normal? Well, let's find out what normal is or isn't.

It is a term we bandy about often. But when you think about what it actually means, is it something you can relate to? Is it even helpful as a concept? Someone has thought about this, so you don't have to. Sarah Chaney, the author of Am I Normal? The 200 Years Search for Normal People, brackets, and why they don't exist. She believes that women in particular have been hard done by in the history of the so called norm. Sarah, good morning. Good morning. And Zoe's not being normal, she says, in stand-up, or none of us are. What do you make of that, first of all? Yeah, absolutely. I'd agree with Zoe. That's definitely something that came across while I was writing my book. And I think a really good example of showing that there's no such thing as normal is that of norma,

so-called average woman. So in 1942, sexologist Robert Dickinson and sculptor Abraham Belsky developed these two statues that were called Norma and Norm Man. So they were these kind of normal individuals. So the statues were made out of measurements of tens of thousands of American people. And this created an average for these statues. But then after they were displayed in the Cleveland Health Museum in 1945, a local newspaper did a competition, which was, are you normal, average woman? For some reason, they didn't do one for normal man. So it again shows the kind of weight of these pressures that's placed on on women to measure up um perhaps more so than men um so they got uh again thousands of women submitted their measurements there were nine different measurements that they took that they had to take to see

whether they compared to the statue um and even on the basis of those nine not a single one of those um four thousand plus women actually met this had the same measurements as a statue so they awarded the prize to the woman who came closest the woman named Martha Skidmore um but yeah not there was there was no such thing as normal average woman we'll get to the word and also how it's useful or not useful in a moment but you had your own personal experiences which you bring up in the book which got you into the idea or the thinking about the idea of what is normal. What is that? What was it for you? Well, I suppose there's a few different things, but the one that really springs to mind is about the size of my feet.

So I take size nine shoes, have done since I was about 14. And as a teenager, I was constantly mortified when I'd go into shoe shops, then I'd have to ask for a particular shoe, I'd whisper, do you have it in a size nine, and it was invariably met with a horrified size nine from the shop assistants. And it's really strange, because since that time, I've met a lot of women who also have size 9 or 10 feet. And yet it's still almost as hard to buy shoes of that size in a shoe shop. Yeah, I mean, I'm an eight and I feel lucky that it's sort of still included, but it's still often, you know, it's almost like you're at the end and there's nothing after it.

And that's obviously not true. And other brands have sprung up now, haven't they? And tried to cater to that. But is it is it useful to have a concept of normal have you come to a conclusion on that um i think in in some sometimes it can be useful um uh sometimes when we're thinking about um the parameters of health if we've got a range of normal but i think even then we have to be aware that um that's healthy and normal aren't necessarily always the same thing um and we have to be really aware that the normal is um kind of constructed within our culture in the same way

as what's what's abnormal or not normal is is constructed. So like if you take the example of the shoes and feet, then the fact that shoe shops don't stock shoes in that size is also part of constructing this notion of normal. So it's actually normal is not just about what's usual or what's common or what's healthy. It's also about all these other factors surrounding it. And I suppose just going back to social media before we were talking about TikTok and the role of Instagram as well, constructing a visual of what's normal as well is a problem and perhaps become more oppressive because of how visual a culture we are now.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And if you look at the sex lives of women and what's a normal number of partners. I know you've had a look at that and how that's changed over time. And a lot of people feel that perhaps, especially women, can't say their number of partners because there's still a norm about women having fewer than men, perhaps. Yeah, yeah. I think it's often the case these norms have changed over time, but then they're still there. And sometimes we find it easier to question those in history because they're so obviously different from what we think today. But then we don't necessarily notice,

we just accept the norms that are around us. So you can kind of see in terms of sex lives for women through history, you've got the Victorian idea of the ruined women. And then in the 20th century, the Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 started to regard some women who had children out of wedlock or who were perhaps poor and struggled to look after their children, began to label them as feeble-minded. And then sometimes they would be institutionalised. And then there's this ongoing stigma against women

who had children out of wedlock. I mean, do we still have the echoes of that today, would you say? Yeah, absolutely. I think so. And even in the later 20th century, you see this shift from unmarried mothers to negative attitudes against single mothers. And I think that continues to this day, definitely. And by having the norm where, you know, would you say the norm has been created, obviously, where it's not women only, but where it's been about men and women?

Has it been tailored towards men? Yeah, very, very often. So, in fact, partly because most of the scientists and doctors in the 19th century setting this up were men and they just assumed that they were the standard and therefore they compared everybody else to them, to themselves. And then you see the echoes of that through the 20th century. So until quite recently, when medications were tested in drug trials, it was routine for them just to be tested on men. And that was primarily because for many women, their hormones fluctuate through the month. So men were thought to be stable and a standard by which you could judge things by, for most men their hormones don't fluctuate in the same way um but of course then when these drugs were actually given uh used on the market uh then they had different side effects uh in women um in response to these to these things so normal people don't exist is that the conclusion here yeah absolutely women or men yes yeah i mean and of, these normal standards have put pressures on men just as they have on women.

Because once you have this kind of average, nobody measures up to it. Well, the book is called Am I Normal? The 200-Year Search for Normal People and Why They Don't Exist. You've been listening to Sarah Chaney. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. I love this message from Jim, who's listening. Good morning. We're talking about the heat and how you're coping.

My wife works for the police in a call centre taking 999 calls. She's taking a thick coat to work because the air conditioning is on full blast. On the other hand, I will spend half an hour buying a single item from our local supermarket just to have a break from the heat. I feel you on that.

I'm wearing a vest in the office today and I'll be taking it off when I go out later. Maybe that's too much information, but the air con is strong where I am in the BBC. My dog and I sleep under the stars with the scent of honeysuckle on the breeze. Can I just ask people who are sleeping outside at the moment, if you're in a position to have some outside space, are you just sleeping out? You know, on the floor? Are you in tents? I need more detail. I mean, a tent would be very hot. So I'm just imagining this. How does it work? Tell me more. Keep in cool at night. Fill an old spray bottle,

ex-cleaning products or similar, with water. Spray over your top sheet. Keep bottled by bed for top up during night. That's a very active evening. You're waking up, you're doing a top up. It's like gardening. Keep the messages coming in. How are you coping? 84844. That's the number you need to text.

Now, the funeral of former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has just taken place in Tokyo. At the end of last week, he was assassinated at a political rally. On Sunday, Japan went to the polls in an election held in the shadow of that assassination. The elections to Japan's upper house saw a record number of women standing for office. Around a third of candidates were female, the highest figure since 1946. But Japan trails behind when it comes to the representation of women in politics. It is ranked 120 out of 156 countries in the latest gender gap index published by the World Economic Forum, the lowest amongst developed countries. Sarah Parsons is a senior teaching fellow at Soas University London, of London I should say.

She researches gender roles in Japan. And I asked her how Shinzo Abe's assassination has affected the country and also its politics. Japan's in a state of deep shock because, you know, this kind of thing just never happens in Japan. And also there's a long history of domestic harmony within politics. I know there's debate, but there's never been anything like this happen. He came on the stage at 2012 when Japan was, the economy was fairly stagnant and he did many things with his ambitomics initiatives. He did bring the subject

of gender equality to the stage as well so he's you know he's known around the world his global diplomacy was one of his strengths so they're in a deep shock but when you talk about the politics we just had the results actually from the election have come through. And there's no surprises there. This is the upper house elections that his party, the LDP, they have formed a majority, a very strong majority. So on that level, yes, I think many people felt they wanted to vote and they wanted to carry on and support this. But, you know, I can't see it affecting the politics of the country. It might even push forward more of an issue of defence

and domestic security, potentially. As you mentioned, the elections were held. Many of the female candidates were successful. Is that right? Yes, I've just got some figures. I've been trying to work out percentages, but there's been a record number of female candidates have got seats, 35, and that's a record high. You know,

this is a positive thing. A lot of the parties put in their quotes as 50% female candidates. The LDP didn't do that, but some of the opposition parties did. So yeah, we've got a lot more women now. We're looking at around 30% representation in the upper house, which is a big improvement. Japan was ranking very low on the World Economic Health Forum's global gender gap for political representation. So that's changing. The lower house, which does have potentially more power, still has quite low representation of women.

But this is a positive move, and I do believe it is closely linked as well to the push for womenomics that Abe brought in, in 2012. Yes. So what is it? Just remind us. Okay. It was part of their structural reform to get more women into the labour market. So Japan traditionally had very low female labour participation to kind of stop the M curve, where women leave the workforce when they get married or have participation, to kind of stop the M curve where women leave the workforce when they get married or have babies, to get better childcare for women. So it's very structural to

get more childcare and also get more men to take paternity leave. And they also set very high targets for female leadership. There's been a mixed bag of whether it's been successful. There was certainly a big rise in the female labour force participation rates. Unfortunately, many of those were in part-time, non-regular roles. It's a very complex issue in Japan. The labour market is quite dualistic. So many of these women lost their jobs during the pandemic. I mean, we've seen this around the world, haven't we? You know, the impact on female labour. So it's really hard to kind of gauge that. But what it did do, and most people agree, is it brought it right on the agenda. The politics, which is seen as being, you know, the kind of uber male-dominated,

conservative part of Japanese society, has been seen as an area that's been a lot harder to change. So this, you know, this figure of getting these women into this, you know, 30% of women into leadership positions is fantastic. But there are many cultural barriers within that as well. The cultural barriers also being around when you often have children, and then what's expected as well. Yes, that has been part of it, that women were expected to leave, not so much now, when they have babies you know it's there's an economic necessity as well for a lot of women to have jobs um but you know there is a

very ingrained social norms and this has unfortunately resulted in quite high levels of gender bias discrimination we've had some quite shocking events, even within politics, where politicians are telling females to go and have babies. You know, some of the female politicians themselves have made quite sexist remarks. And at the top of the LDP, you know, there's quite a lot of reticence to change. They had a meeting, it was quite infamous in the news, a meeting last year of the board members

where women were allowed to go and listen. I remember. We covered it at the time. I know there's a lot more to it than we got in the media, but it's this kind of expectation that women have been in this role very much of, you know, the background role, the mother, you know, the wife is a very important role for Japanese women. Going into the workforce, they've still had certain behavioural and that they shouldn't really be speaking out or criticizing and and the long working hours and all of these things have kind of resulted in a very gendered workforce and it's

all a real you know it's an uphill struggle for a lot of women who want to get into these positions of leadership because in the economic miracle times it was very quite segmented, especially within the large companies. Women were at home. The men were committed to the company long hours. So you don't have those numbers in leadership to be role models. So the pipeline, you know, just be shaking the country for some time and the sadness that it's felt. I understand you've previously had a conversation with his wife, of course, now, a widow, because when it comes to the role of women, she did step up on that front and have very strong views. She did, actually. We had lunch in London. I was very, very honoured to have a private lunch with her and I changed the conversation quite I shouldn't really do that in Japanese culture and I changed

it to what do you think about the gender roles and she was obviously quite limited to what she could say because of her position but she'd done a lot of work with single mothers in Tokyo she'd you know she's done a lot of work to push this agenda within the limitations of what she could do. I think Shinzo Abe actually referred to her as his own personal opponent within the house. You know, she was very pro-gender equality and very positive about these changes.

And is it Aki Abe, how do I say? Akiye. Akiye, okay, to give her her name, of course. I mean, that's a very striking way of describing it. His opponent in the home. That's how some people may feel generally about their marriage or about some of the issues they digress on, but they diverge on rather.

But it is a note in all of the obituaries I have read about her. So that's why I wanted to bring it up. And there aren't many people, of course, I'm sure, who have sat and had conversations with her as you have. Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, she also had her personal assistant who was really keen to talk to me about the challenges that she'd had. But she had children and Akiye had really empowered her

to be able to fulfil that role whilst having children. And that was quite rare, actually. If you look at a lot of the women in leadership roles in Japan, you know, to have a family as well as do that role without, you know, it's very rare, actually. So I got the impression that she wanted to empower the women around her as well to do that but she was she was absolutely delightful and my heart goes out to her really because they were always seen as a very devoted couple as well yes but she certainly would have you know opposed some things and I think the issue with the womenomics actually I mean he tried to do this and he's trying to bring it into an economic agenda as well.

Getting more women in is going to boost the economy. But the cultural norms were just so strong that, you know, there's been a lot of backlash to that. I'm sure you heard about the case of Tokyo Medical University as well, where the men's marks were doctored because women were seen as being a burden, really, going into the workforce and leaving. So, you know, there's been a lot of institutionalised discrimination. So part of my thoughts on this is that, you know,

you can have all these changes from the top, which are great, but there has to be some bottom-up movement on looking at the gender roles and how they do cause these barriers for women. Sarah Parsons, Senior Teaching Fellow at SOAS University of London, who looks specifically at gender roles in Japan. Can I just say, big respect to so many of you getting in touch this morning. I love you. You're sleeping outside, some of you. I did ask for more detail. Look at this message, or rather hear it.

Slept outside on a swing seat during the heat wave of 1976. Upright, lying down. Did you not get a bit of motion sickness? Maybe there was no breeze. Doesn't sound like there was. A hammock, sleeping out, question mark, says Sheila. Another one here. I slept on our patio last night.

Much cooler than indoors. Just an open sleeping bag, a pillow and a roll mat. Bliss, says Mary. Any foxes going by? I'd be a bit worried about animals. A few other messages also concerned about interference during your sleep if you're relocating. My husband has set up a bed in our garage. I'm too scared of the spiders to go and join him. Had the loft insulated for heat retention. It works both ways. The house stays cool in the summer.

An advert there for that, or not a formal advert, but you take the point. My husband is sleeping by the open back door, but being a deep sleeper, I keep waking up and checking on the kids. I keep thinking some animal or person might jump over him and then come in the house. The kids have fans in their room. You see, I'd be like you, whoever you are. I'd be worrying about other people, other animals, whatever, coming into the home. Thank you so much for your messages and company.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.