Woman's Hour - Missing children, Women's minister Penny Mordaunt, Waitress the musical

Episode Date: March 4, 2019

In the UK, someone is reported missing every 90 seconds - around 180,000 a year. What is it like for the families who are never reunited? How does it feel to be a mother with a missing son or daughter? Jane speaks to three women about their own experiences.Jane speaks to the Minister for Women and Equalities, Penny Mordaunt, about a new government campaign to end period poverty globally by 2030.Waitress is the first ever West End musical that has been written, composed, directed and choreographed by women. Jane meets its star Katharine McPhee - best known for Smash and American Idol - and the woman behind the songs and music multi Grammy Award nominee singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles.We discuss the lives of women who carried out anthropological fieldwork around the world in the early twentieth century. Six are being featured in a new exhibition at the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and thank you. You've downloaded the Women's Hour podcast from Monday 4th March 2019. On the podcast today you'll hear Penny Morden, Secretary of State for International Development and the Minister for Women and Equalities. She talks about Brexit, about period poverty and about abortion or lack of access to it, to be more specific, in Northern Ireland.

We'll also discuss the new West End musical Waitress, which is a musical about women, largely for women, you might argue, their experiences of what must be a truly horrific thing to go through as an individual or as a family. Let's start then with Penny Mordaunt. She is talked of as a potential candidate for a future leader of the Conservative Party. And this morning she was making a speech at Church House in Westminster on a new government initiative to attempt to end period poverty. I spoke to her there first thing this morning. I think if we're going to end period poverty for good, for everyone for which this is an issue, so that's not just people in schools and colleges, it affects people throughout their lives. I think we need to bring together all of those people who have been doing fantastic work across many sectors and look at actually how we resolve this. Okay and you're offering how much money? So we're not offering money on this at present. I put a small amount of money in to

support the work of this task force that we're putting together and that might involve us doing some more research where there's gaps but it also will mean us helping schemes that are doing well. I confess I'm slightly confused now there's a small amount of money it's about a quarter of a million quid going towards a task force to start to deal with the problem that is edging away from actually solving the issue which essentially is poverty people don't the money, and it will astonish some of our listeners, they don't have the money to buy tampons and sanitary towels. Well, I think this is, yes, it's about poverty, but I think it's a bit more than that. I think that it's not the same as being able to afford your bus fare and those sorts of things. There's a stigma attached to this. And think we need to have um uh several schemes which address this for different people they can't be schemes which are very complicated and have

eligibility criteria and a bureaucratic nightmare it's got to be something that yes the public sector government but also society contributes to and i think that will involve a bit of a culture change as well um This is not a final amount of money we're going to be doing some more things in the future we had an announcement yesterday from the NHS I think that the Department of Education has had a greater focus on this in recent times. Anecdotally we know I've spoken to teachers who give their female pupils sanitary towels or tampons. They have to do it because they can't get them at home. That is preposterous, isn't it, in a country like this?

I think that we do need to do more, and the Department of Education has been looking at this issue. And I think that is an area where government is well placed to help, and I think we should be doing more on that front. But at the same time, there will be other parts of society where we're not best placed to help and I think we we should be doing more on that front but at the same time there will be other parts of society where we're not best placed to help and I think we need to look at the the whole issue in a in the round because this will the answer to this is going to be a collaboration between government between the the manufacturers and the private sector and the many fantastic organizations and groups who've been dealing with this issue. But obviously the real issue is the poverty at the heart of the situation.

If people weren't strapped for cash, we wouldn't have period poverty. That's the real truth of it, isn't it? Well, I think that is part of it. But I think that this is something in addition to that. There is a stigma attached to this. And so I don't think you can have a... The stigma is what exactly? Well, we know from, for example, surveys like the Girl Guides have performed that 21% of their respondents felt they were not able to discuss their periods. They felt embarrassed by doing that. And so I think we can't have a sort of overly bureaucratic scheme with lots of eligibility criteria for schools.

I don't think that's going to work. I do think there are other issues as well. I, when I was growing up, had difficulty accessing these products because I was from a single-parent family with a father who didn't really sort of understand these issues. So I think there are other issues that we need to look at in the round with this. I think it's interesting what you say, because actually, when I think about it, it wouldn't have been a possibility for someone like me to sit

talking to a senior government representative about periods, even though you and I are both women, we both had periods, we're both still having periods, whatever it might be. We've made strides here, but isn't it disturbing that there is still any kind of stigma around something that happens to the majority of the global population? I think it is incredible. And we have issues in the UK with my other hat on as International Development Secretary. It's much more widespread. We know that about half of all women, for example, in low and middle income countries don't have access to sanitary products at all. They're using things like grass, paper, that sort of thing. And that has a huge impact in their ability to go to school, to participate in the workplace and all the other things we're trying to get done. It's globally, there is still a huge amount of stigma.

And we also are announcing today a campaign to tackle this issue globally, to remove that stigma, to talk about periods, and to make sure actually women have the information about their own bodies that they need. Of course, the Sanpro industry makes billions. And actually, it's been making billions for a very long time, precisely in a way because of the stigma. No one has really questioned the enormous amount of money it has been able to make. And they must be licking their lips at the prospect of entering developing countries and making even more money there. Not, by the way, that I'm suggesting that I in any way don't sympathise with a woman obliged to use a filthy rag or grass. But you see the point I'm making. This

is a very, very good opportunity for an already incredibly successful industry. Well, I think by breaking the taboo, we will be helping actually an enormous number of entrepreneurs who are coming forward with better technologies for production, better products themselves, which will actually enable us to extend the reach and make sure that what money we have in the public sector is being used in the most effective way. Now, at the moment, there's only one show in town, actually, which is Brexit. Put the case for Brexit in terms of women. How will women's lives benefit after March the 29th? Well, I think it depends what happens on March the 29th.

Let's say we do indeed leave. We do leave. Let's say we leave with a deal. Yes. Well, I supported leaving. I think that we will have many more options in the future to... What are the options? Well, I think we have clearly indicated the British public want us to be able to be masters of our own destiny. And that means, ultimately, over the medium to long term, being able to grow our economy, to focus on parts of the world which we've not been able to focus on.

Just to go back to the point, how it will benefit women. I'm thinking of a woman who listens to our programme regularly, perhaps, who might be around my age, perhaps a bit older, perhaps caring for her parents or hoping that somebody from outside Britain will help her care for her parents. She might also be working, could be part-time. She could also be playing a part in helping to care for her grandchildren. How will leaving the European Union benefit her? Well, I think it will make our economy stronger. I think that by having those new opportunities, which previously we would not have had or we would have been restricted into what progress we could make, we will be giving ourselves more opportunities.

That will mean stronger public services. It will be more opportunities for her. Part of the work that I'm doing in the GEO is around women's gender. That's the Government Equalities Office, is around economic empowerment for women. And obviously we're doing it against the backdrop of Brexit. And that's really going to be looking at a woman at every stage in her life, particularly the shift that we are now having to having something more to say to more financially fragile women, women trapped in low pay, and women with multiple caring responsibilities. Well, I've just outlined that very woman. How, on March the 30th, will her life be any rosier?

Will it start to become rosier and filled with more prospects immediately? Or might she have to wait till she's 75 for anything to get better? Well, I think you're not going to see a massive change on the 30th of March. You're a leaver. You've always been a leaver. When do you anticipate we'll start to feel the benefits? Well, I think that we will over the next few years. I mean, clearly this will be complemented by what we do within the UK. I think that for that woman that you've described to really thrive, some of the things that we are bringing forward this spring in this economic empowerment strategy

will need to come to pass. And that's about, well, it's going to be a very comprehensive piece of work and it will look at every stage in a woman's life. What do we need to do to make that person the most financially resilient, have the most opportunities that they can have, and be able to cope with anything that happens in their life.

That's what we're working towards. The cause of women in politics is important to people like yourself, and it should be. So bearing in mind some of the appalling things that have happened recently to female politicians in Britain, Luciana Berger, for example, if you read the interview that she gave in the Times magazine on Saturday, is it part of your role as Minister for Women to reach out to women like that and offer support? Have you spoken to her? Yes, I have. I mean, I think you're always very conscious

of, particularly for some Labour MPs and what they're facing as a Conservative for making their situation worse. But I think there are things you can do. You mean if you'd offered Luciana support publicly, she'd have got into more trouble or had more criticism? I'm always very conscious of that. I think retweeting Tom Watson is generally a good plan.

So you can distance yourself from it, but still offer her support? No, I think you can offer colleagues support. And when that happens to people, I think that's important. I think also you need to be very conscious of what's actually in someone's interest. And you don't want to exacerbate a situation for them. But I think particularly on that issue, I think it is a desperate and appalling situation that's going on. I would say, though, and I think that actually female MPs in particular

have been very good at saying this, that uh this is an amazing job and if you if you know what i read that interview it didn't sound like an amazing job to me i couldn't think of anything i'd less like to do right now well i i think that uh clearly um some of us have had been singled out um and for a whole variety of reasons. But I do think that I, speaking from a personal point of view, and I've had people convicted for things that they've done to me, I think that I've never felt actually safer. I think that the support mechanisms that the police have brought in... When I had difficulty a few years ago,

the only way I could get the police then to investigate was not that death threats were being made against me or things pushed through my letterbox. It was because the perpetrator was defrauding the post office by using business reply envelopes. So that wouldn't happen now. If I went with the same evidence to the police, they would be on it straight away. Well, that is some comfort, but it's still an illustration of how far we've travelled. And Luciana's current predicament is an illustration of how far we have to go. Can I just ask you a little bit about Northern Ireland,

about the fact that women in Northern Ireland still don't have access to abortion? You can't be happy with that on their behalf. No, I'm not. I think this is about a duty of care that we have to individuals. And I think that the work that the Select Committee is doing at the moment on highlighting cases and also allowing healthcare professionals to exercise their, talk about their concerns is very important. We, I think, are in a very bad place on this. And Parliament has clearly given its steer that it is not content with the situation. But actually, although Parliament can initiate a change in the law, it's not best placed to actually set up services. People who are best placed to set up services are governments,

and that either means the Northern Ireland Assembly or it means the UK government. If we are going to do this well for women in Northern Ireland... I understand that there is clearly a complication here, more than one, but we are still in a situation where in a country like ours, a 17-year-old girl who perhaps has been raped will still have to make that trip somewhere else at the most vulnerable time in her life. Surely, is this going to go on for another couple of years or can we sort that out within the next six months, what do you think well the secretary of state for northern ireland has indicated she gave evidence last week to the select committee and she has indicated she's waiting on the result of a particular case but if there is a declaration of incompatibility that she will she said that's a significant moment i think we do need to act, whether it is the Assembly or whether it is the UK government. You mentioned 17-year-olds, 12-year-olds have been accompanied on this trip by the Northern

Ireland Police. We've got women whose lives are being put in danger. I've spoken to a number of women who've been in that situation and actually the so-called chilling effect of the current situation which means that even if someone is legally entitled to access these services for medical reasons sometimes they're not they're not being given that information because health care professionals are unsure of what they can say. So this is not about whether these women should be able to access these services. This is about the quality of care that these women are currently not getting. Can I ask about your leadership ambitions? You are thought of, you are spoken about as a potential prime ministerial candidate.

True. I think our current prime minister is going to be... Yeah, that's not quite the answer. Yes, but that doesn't really answer my question. No. And I have to say that I am focused on doing my two jobs and supporting her. And I think that's what the country wants us to do. But you are from a sort of background that might actually surprise people. You mentioned that you grew up, unfortunately, without your mum, who, and I think you've tweeted rather poignantly that it's your birthday today. Is that right? It is my birthday today. Happy birthday. But you also make the point, and people will be interested in this,

because it's extremely sad that you've now reached the age at which your mum died of breast cancer. And I know you've also said, encouraged people to take up the breast screening offer. Do you think people know enough about you, actually? Because I read all this, and I confess, perhaps I began to change my view of you, which is my own ignorance I'm talking about here. What would you say about that? I think that people, people i think are interested in your background and where you've come from um i think as a politician i'm more interested in the front story than that than the back story i understand that but i i think that uh it was i was actually very touched by the response to um for for your listeners who don't know there was a

a story about women not taking up breast screening. And today is my birthday, but it's significant because I've reached the age that she died at because she didn't access screening services. And I had a lot of people on Twitter who had exactly the same feelings as me. They were talking about the age that their mother died and how they were worried about reaching that age and what it meant to them. But I think these are the things that shape us. These are my experiences of being a child carer and all sorts of other stuff. That's what makes us who we are. And I think that certainly in this role,

when I'm looking at what I can do to support women, I'm thinking of people like my mother and the things that she had and didn't have. That is Penny Mordant, Secretary of State for International Development, Minister for Women and Equalities. Lots of reaction to that. We'll try and squeeze some of them into this programme or into the podcast available later, but at BBC Women's Hour, if you've got something to say about that. Now let's celebrate Women in Musical Theatre in a big way because Waitress is opening in the West End of London this week and as I said at the start it is the first ever musical in the West End of London written, composed, directed and choreographed by women. Its star is Catherine McPhee. Welcome to

the programme Catherine and the woman who wrote the songs and the music is Sarah Borella. Sarah, welcome to you as well. Hello. This is originally or was originally a film, Waitress. And I wouldn't necessarily have watched Waitress or heard about Waitress and thought, there's a hit musical. So what gave you the idea? Well, actually, I'll give all the credit to our producing team the weissler's barry and fran weissler and men that no uh that is a yes barry's a man husband and wife okay all right um so they bought the rights to the film um actually years and years ago back the the film came out in 2007 and i think they acquired the rights in 2008 or 9 and um so it's been a long road of very slow development and when I moved to New York about six years ago um I got hooked up with this project that was in the the beginning stages there was a director Diane Paulus she was attached to it as already and they were looking for the composer

and so we had lunch and we spoke about the film which i wasn't familiar with at the time you watched it though i did i went home and watched it and i felt like it could sing i felt like it made sense to make it musical the fact that well the fact that you thought it could sing is why you are the success you are frankly um katherine just set it set it up for us it's it's uh It's in a diner. This is literally my worst quality. Okay, so you can't do it. It's set in this amazing Dayglo diner set somewhere in nowhere America. Yeah, we kind of leave it sort of nonspecific,

but it's about the story focuses on a girl named Jenna Hunterson, and she works in a diner with two other girls, and she is a beautiful pie maker. She has a big passion for it. It's her sort of outlet to the reality of her life, which is this marriage that she's in. And she's quite unhappy. It's implied that it's an abusive relationship, a little physical, but probably more emotionally abusive. And she gets pregnant. And she doesn't want the baby, but she's going to keep the baby. And she feels like she's stuck in this life that she has, although she has this outlet of these wonderful girls she works with. But it's this

thing of like what she's going to do with her life now that she's pregnant with a baby and a man that she's married to that she doesn't want to be with. Well, the answer is... She meets a gynecologist, a new gynecologist in town, and things start to change. Well, they really do. I have to say, I've met gynecologists. Most women have. But it's a male gynecologist, so that's the...

Yes, and I've met some of them. I've never... Well, it is a slightly bizarre conceit at the heart of the story, Sarah, as you source material for the musical, is that she was such a maverick of her time. She was I mean, this is a deeply feminist story and was really sort of radical ideas for that time to have, first of all, to have the protagonist be a woman stepping into motherhood, who is very verbal about I don't want this baby. That's sort of sacrilegious to have a mother be admitting that it's a complicated relationship or that they're not excited about motherhood. Now, the story ends up being a really beautiful journey of her finding herself and finding

her voice. But it's not the quintessential fairy tale. You know, the doctor is someone who's sort of unlocked something. Can I just point out, we haven't mentioned the pies. No. I mean, neither of you look as though you eat a lot of carbohydrate, I have to say. But this is a West End show rich in carbs. Absolutely.

And it is, you may not know this, National Pie Week in the UK this week. Oh, my gosh, that's so cool. Well, I suggest that you celebrate that on Thursday night. You really should. Wow. And perhaps try some of our traditional British pies. I'll send a gala pie to the theatre. That will teach you.

I want to know a little bit, Sarah, about how you write songs for musicals because you're a really successful singer-songwriter outside musical theatre. This is very different, isn't it? Writing a song for someone like Catherine to perform brilliantly in front of a live audience. Thankfully, writing a song for Catherine to perform

is about the easiest thing in the world to do, I have to say. She liked hearing that. I'm such a huge fan of this girl right here. But the biggest difference for me was about trying to shift the perspective of who the storyteller is. I'm so used to writing autobiographically. I write from my own perspective.

And so getting into the psychology of each character, writing for Jenna was slightly easier than writing for the abusive husband for example you know but it was an exercise in i call it radical empathy where it's trying to find a way into the the psyche of someone who you may or may not feel like you relate to can we just hear we're going to hear the song she used to be mine in a moment can you just set it up for us c? What's happening in the part of the show where you sing this? I think this is sort of what they call the 11 o'clock number in a musical. She, oh God, how do I set this up?

She is quite pregnant now towards the end of the show. And she's been saving this money from her husband. She's been secretly stashing all this money to try and find a way to escape. And it all blows up in her face. Her husband finds all this money stashed in the house. And it's this sort of big argument. And he takes the money and she's left there on the stage by herself.

And it's kind of that moment where she realizes she's not going to be able to make the change that she thought she was going to be able to make moment where she realizes like she's not going to be able to make the the change that she thought she was going to be able to make the escape that she thought she was gonna be able to make let's let's hear it let's hear that song now here we go and then she'll get stuck and be scared of the life that's inside her growing stronger each day till it finally reminds her to fight just a little To bring back the fire in her eyes That's been gone, but used to be mine

Well, I'd had a drink and that was the point at which I began to well up in the show. It is fantastic. What does the 11 o'clock number mean? I don't know. You know, I might have. It's a showbiz term. I know I didn't make it up. No, it's sort of like the number towards the end of the show.

That's like the big showstopper, big ballad. It's like the. An expression. And I'm telling you, you know, those are the big show, like the showstoppers. Yeah. When I was there, the audience was probably majority female. Is that is that what you'd expect? Well, actually, it's funny that you say that because Diane, our director, has been in the audience many, many times. And she said it's been a really eclectic group of people. It's been older couples, younger couples.

A lot like when I was doing the show the other night i saw a cute couple with and i don't usually look into the audience but i just happened to see in the front row this girl with her head on her shoulder of her boyfriend so um i actually don't think it's all women typically but i mean it's sure it is more women but when i look out into the audience i feel i find it to be male and female um and i know that some of my friends who are my age, in their 30s, they weren't sure they were going to like, oh, I'm going to go see a musical called Waitress. And these guys, the show is very funny. And I don't think it's just a show for women. But women obviously love the show, as they should, because it's a real

feminist kind of show. But men love it too. I mean, from my experience. Can I just ask, are they real pies? They are real pies. What do you mean some of them? Not every pie on stage, the ones that get thrown around. But there's definitely, there's a lot of real food. Do they look real? I felt I could smelt them at one point. Yeah, that's actually true. They bake a pie in the lobby this is something that started on broad this is starting something that started in boston when we did our out of town tryout they started baking a

pie in the lobby because that visceral reaction to like a fresh baked pie we couldn't we couldn't replicate it artificially yeah so they actually bake a pie right Right. Well, if that hasn't encouraged you to go, I don't know what will, really. But just a quick word on the whole idea of the female empowerment aspect of the musical and the fact that so many women are involved behind the scenes. I was really surprised this was the first time with that many women in prominent positions in the West End.

Why has it taken so long, Sarah? I think we're just in the middle of a movement. One of the things I'm so proud about in terms of being a part of this all-female lead creative team is that it wasn't a casting agenda. It was we just happened. We were well into the process of making the show when someone sort of looked around and said, I don't think this has happened before. So it wasn't on purpose. And that, to me, is sort of my hope for the feminist movement is that we get beyond, you know, you know what I mean? Like making a thing about it. Yeah, where it's just like we were just artists

at the top of our field that got brought together and making a project, and we happened to also be all women. Yeah, and, you know, I stepped into it after the show's been going on Broadway for a long time, and it was brought to my attention. I thought, oh, that's funny, because I stepped into it after the show's been going on Broadway for a long time and it was brought to my attention. I thought, oh, that's funny because I didn't have that like, oh, I'm surrounded by women thing. I was just like, oh, I'm just surrounded by people who really know what they're doing.

Well, I really wish you the very best of luck. I don't think you're going to need much because you're brilliant. You know you are, Catherine. Thank you. That's Catherine McPhee. I'd love to see you. Sarah Bareilles as well, who's the woman who wrote the songs and the music. Waitress opens at the Adelphi Theatre in London

on Thursday of this week and I suspect well, it's going to run for quite some time but it's one of those things that you would enjoy. You can almost certainly trust me on this, although I said before, I'm no critic, but I did like this. Thank you both very much. That's an embarrassment.

It doesn't get any better. Stick that on a poster. Now tomorrow on Woman's Hour, I'm really interested to speak to Melanie Reid, who you might well know. She writes for the Saturday Times magazine. Her memoir, The World I Fell Out Of, is about her life since the riding accident in which she broke her neck.

So, Melanie Reid is on the programme tomorrow. So, too, is the psychotherapist, Philippa Perry. She's going to take your parenting questions, anything you've got on that troublesome subject, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. That's tomorrow as well. Now, in the UK, somebody is reported missing every 90 seconds, and that amounts to about 180,000 people a year.

What is it like if you're the mother of a missing son or daughter? Andrea's daughter, Georginaina and Karen's son Matthew both went missing last year, and a woman we're calling Lucinda last saw her son two years ago. They've all been speaking to me and indeed to each other, and here's Andrea. Georgina went missing almost a year ago now. We've only had one CCTV sighting in that whole year Georgina left the house that morning

she was going to do some errands and things that she had to do and we've never seen her again the police have lots of theories people come up with lots of theories and sort of hypotheses about what's happened to her but we have nothing we have no leads nothing at all i just know giordina she's quite dependent we're very close close family and um and she has two boys for her to think i'm gonna go off and find a new life i'm almost positive she wouldn't just that's not what's happened to her where where are her sons now they were their their father you still you see them yes yeah yeah yeah i see them every week every weekend what have they been told about what's happened to her and they've been told the truth i mean in the beginning when they were first coming to me and they mummy wasn't there

i mean i just said mummy's not here and she can't come today and sort of as the weeks got you know sort of a month um we had to sort of say mummy is missing and we don't know where mummy is we don't know what's happened to her but we're looking the police are looking everybody's trying to find mummy we don't know if she's poorly in the beginning that it I don't think they understood it very much um but as it got into sort of three or four months I was quite surprised at how they had sort of taken it in and it was mommy was missing and I might then it was am I ever going to see mommy again and you know and I couldn't say you are. And I just had to be honest because I thought if we never find her, I would have given them false, false hopes. So usually when they come, we light candles of hope for mummy.

And we've got lots of pictures around and they talk to mummy. And, you know, sometimes they do. They cry. They go off into the bedroom and cry and find them like that. But, you know we that's all I can do really. Thank you for that Andrea. Karen tell me about your son because he was well he was academically very high-flying wasn't he? He was yes he was getting towards the end of his his PhD he'd come home to the family home to complete his final write-up of his PhD. And that's where he went missing from our home in the first place. And was he all right?

I think it was fair to say he was under a fair amount of stress. He was spending a lot of time on his own. But, you know, you sort of take it that he needs that space to do his work. When he was away studying, had he been unhappy at any time? He'd moved accommodation quite a lot and I think that possibly being a PhD student you don't have that same set of friends around you as you did when you're doing your undergrad stuff it tends to be a completely new set of friends so but he was always outgoing he was always sociable he would always seek out new friendships and he made quite

a lot of friends with international students and things. So, you know, I didn't have any reason to suspect that he was particularly unhappy, no. And the day he went, did he take anything? He took a small bag, I think. He took the keys to our house. It was a fairly cold day in March, but he didn't wear a coat. He was just wearing a jumper. And this is the March of 2018? Correct, yes. It was just after we'd had some snow here. It was bitterly cold, wasn't it? It was very cold, yes. But no, very small amount. You know, as I say, he was just going out as though

he was just going out for a local walk, basically. And since then, have you heard anything? Well, he ended up in Worcestershire and the police in West Mercia have been investigating the case. There have been potential sightings, but nothing at all substantial at all that's led to anything that, you know, we think is actually Matthew. Lucinda, your son, you last saw him about two years ago in prison. In prison, yes. What was he in prison for? I don't know. They won't tell me because of the data protection, but I assume it was for theft.

He has a drug habit and I think he steals to feed his habit. And his drug habit is something that has actually dominated much of his adult life. Absolutely, yeah, since he was about 17, 18. What happened, actually? Peer group, and they were smoking skunk, and he tried it, and he is susceptible. He's allergic, so one of the doctors told us. And he had a really bad reaction, a psychotic reaction, and it sort of spiralled since then. And he, in fact, had bouts of really extreme poor

health didn't he for many years? Yes yes he did and he'd lose a lot of weight and get very thin he's about six foot five and he just looked like a walking pole you know and his mental health deteriorated and he's been sectioned five times and then they let you out when they think you're better and this all starts all over again, and you're sectioned again, and he's been sectioned from prison once, and now I don't know where he is. I mean, he's been cited in London a couple of times, but he's just on the streets.

I imagine that, well, all three of you can tell me, you just have to compartmentalise this, don't you, just to get through every day? I put everything to the back of my mind and it does come forward obviously um but yes and it's really hard when my friends talk about their sons and you know what they're doing and their families and anything well he will not have that at all yes i find that difficult too when others are discussing their children and things it's it's very hard what do you do actually when that happens I guess I just listen and sort of smile

I don't kind of participate um but yeah there's a something something inside you which kind of you know there's a bit of a churn there which thinks you know I wish that was my situation yeah me too and they say where is your son I go well he's in London and I'm very vague. Of course you don't know what he could be and he probably is. Well he probably is yes because he has no way of getting out of London. I think though you were telling me earlier Lucinda that a close relative has incredibly actually seen him. He bumped into him, it was his half-brother bumped into him near Marble Arch and he took a picture and sent it to the family. But then my son ran off, so still don't know where he is. Can I ask all of you, when it is you do think about them?

I guess family occasions, festive periods, so-called, can be very challenging. Andrea, what about you? I think about Regina every day because I've got her two small boys that come round all the time. And for me, looking for her is sort of a daily thing because it doesn't stop. I'm either putting posters out or I've got a friend who's been helping me sort of contact different companies for digital billboard space or, you know, anything to get awareness out there. So every single day I do, you know, I work on things in between work and my other three daughters. So I don't think I ever stop thinking about her.

It's become a bit like a job, really, I think, now doing everything I do. Yes, yeah. It's a project in itself isn't it which you just have to do alongside everything else It's not a project any of you wanted to be involved in is it? No Again this is not something that anybody can expect to be doing

There is no right way to do this is there? No, it's like a learning curve because I didn't know much about drugs and he has now gone on to crack cocaine. And then I think, gosh, he used to be such a lovely little boy and I miss him. He had a lovely sense of humour and I feel sorry for my daughter. She hasn't got her brother anymore. Karen? Yes, yes, yes, similarly as well. Matthew's got a sister and she misses Matthew too.

And although you do everything possible, you do kind of think, well, is there something else I should be doing? But you have to kind of just feel your way through it, basically. Lucinda, what is it you wish you'd had from other people in your life who probably do care about you but don't quite know what to say or what to do? What could people have done better? You don't need to be critical. Well, I don't tell everybody. That's one thing.

If they ask, I don't give them the whole story because it's so long you know and i don't want to go through it all the time um my family have been really good my sister especially uh she's been with me the whole time and when we were prison visiting she would be there with me so she is the most important person i think and the one i bounce everything off. Without her, it would have been horrendous, really. I wouldn't have been able to cope, I don't think. Yes, I think, to put it mildly,

you've been through a pretty harrowing last couple of years, so I'm really, really sorry about that. And I just wonder whether, Andrea or Karen, you would point to somebody in your life who has really come through for you and been brilliant andrea well my daughters have been really support very very supportive my three other daughters um always there they all sort of go out of their way extra and you know to sort of make sure that I'm all right and also made a friend since Georgina's been missing. But sometimes I think some of your friends that you have,

they haven't been as supportive as the strangers. I found that strangers have been, you know, very, very kind and helpful, offering help, people I don't even know, and support more so than some of the people that you actually know. I think friends don't know what to say. No, that's right, yes. Because they can't imagine what it can be like.

No, some are happy to approach you. Some I think you can see sort of standing back because they don't know what to say. But you have to accept that, that that's their reaction, I think. Do you sometimes feel, Karen, a bit judged? Yeah, I did feel that, I think, a bit early on. You know, you kind of think, well, are people looking at you and saying, well, what did you do to cause this? Or, you know, did

you not know kind of thing that he may leave? So, yes, you kind of have to get over that, I think, and just know in yourself that you did everything you could. Yeah, that is important, I think, to know in you that you've done what you can to help. Yes, yes. And that nobody can, you know, judge you for that. You probably accept that your children are adults. They are actually allowed to walk out, go anywhere and do anything. That freedom is accorded to all of us in this country when we become adults.

I imagine all you really want to know is that they're all right. Yes. And would you settle for that, Lucinda, if that was what you got? Yes, I would settle that he was OK and safe. I want him to be safe. Yeah, I think being safe is the most important thing. Yes, that's really what I want. And the streets are not safe.

Half of me thinks something's happened to her. Half of me thinks she's perhaps been trafficked or got into some gang, you know, they've got her into drugs and something. I don't think she's gone off somewhere and she's having a happy life and, you know, all is well. Because I often get people, like, as you said, they say, well, she's an adult, she's probably just gone off and she is allowed to go off. But you just know yourself. I know my daughter, she's, you know, how she was quite dependent on me and how close

she was and I just know I don't have that feeling that I feel that something you know it's something not very good I try to not be negative because if I think that she's not around anymore then I might as well just give up mightn't I so life is just sort of revolving around this situation I think the difficult thing is is there's no sense of when it's ever going to end no no no you kind of think this could be with you for forever forever yeah yeah well you heard the voices there of a woman we're calling Lucinda and also Andrea and Karen. And unsurprisingly, lots of people just wanted to say how much they were thinking of those mothers and wish for something positive for them in the future. Maggie on email said it's one of the most moving things I've heard on Women's Hour.

My heart hurts for these poor mothers and their families. And from Tricia, listening to the heartbreaking stories of mothers whose children have gone missing, it's got to be among the worst things that can happen. It's a hackneyed phrase, but my heart really does go out to them, says Tricia. And here's an email from a listener who says, my son Tom went missing in the August of 1999.

He'd taken the dog for a walk. The dog was found running around in Karlsruhe in Germany in the early hours of the morning. Oh, I wish that dog could have talked. The next two years were lots of phone calls involving the police, the Salvation Army, the British Embassy. Tom did not have his passport with him. Eventually, we had a call that he was selling the big issue in the Netherlands. I now know where he is. I talk to his partner and I see my grandson. A semi-happy ending, says the listener. But I died inside, she says, during the course of that time.

I'm sorry, I assumed it was a woman, but I could, of course, be wrong. That could be a concerned dad as well. But anyway, whoever you are, wherever you are, I'm glad that at least you had news of your son. And like the listeners who already responded, I actually can't think of anything much worse for a parent. It must be absolutely terrible. Now, we did have some reaction to the interview about Waitress. This is the new musical in the West End. Some of you a little bit confused. One listener says, it's Bex. I've got to listen more carefully,

says Bex. I've just spent the last five minutes trying to figure out the plot to Waitrose, the musical. Now, literally, I would pay to see that, and I suspect many Radio 4 listeners would as well. Penny Mordaunt was on the programme as well, and lots of you had plenty to say on this subject.

Christine says, I'm just appalled. I presumed Jane would be impassive in her questioning. Not sure whether you mean impassive. Anyway, unbiased possibly, but no, quite clearly having a dig at Brexit. Please, Jane, keep your own opinions out of the equation. Well, Christine, because precisely because Penny Morden is a passionate leaver, I was obliged to put the other side of that argument. Had it been the other way around, I'd have posed a different set of questions, of course. From Helen, I don't hear very much mention of the Moon Cup.

Surely this is something which is both cost effective and environmentally friendly. A product which is reusable and doesn't add to landfill or fill the pockets of the sand pro industry has got to be a good idea. In conversation with my elderly mother, says Kim, my equally elderly dad entered the room. What are you talking about? Periods, I said. My father opened his mouth, turned and quickly left the room. I don't think anyone has said that word to your father in his life, said my mother. A stunned silence followed. Well, I did mean it when I said to Penny Mordant, there was a time when it would have been unthinkable to start any conversation with a government minister, particularly a senior one, really, and discuss periods. It didn't

used to be a thing. Now, mercifully, it is. And this from Sarah May. I used an easy to wash out cloth for months when I was unemployed. Later on, like another correspondent earlier, I found menstrual cups. At the time, they were expensive, but they're not now. Globally, they may not be the answer as you do need clean running water to use them as you need to be able to wash them but in the uk they can save you a lot of money thank you all for taking part we appreciate it and women's hour back tomorrow our guests include the times journalist melanie reed who's written a fantastic memoir really interesting one about her life now after a riding accident in which she broke her neck so melanie on the program tomorrow hope you can join us for that or for the podcast whenever it suits you. Hello, I'm Greg Foot and I'm hosting a new Radio 4 podcast called The Best Things Since Sliced Bread.

Have you ever wondered what's fact and what's fad when it comes to wonder products, face creams, activated charcoal, kombucha, turmeric shots. That's what I'm trying to find out with the help of leading scientists and special guests. If you want to separate benefits from bunkum, subscribe to The Best Things Since Sliced Bread on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.