Woman's Hour - Mistresses, Ultrasound 'bra', Diane Foley, Black girls in education

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

It is has been 11 years since the American journalist James Foley was kidnapped in northern Syria, and nearly a decade since his mother, Diane Foley, discovered he had been beheaded by Islamic State fighters. Diane has written a book with the novelist Colum McCann, called American Mother, in which she recounts the story of her son’s kidnapping and murder, and her campaign to improve the chances of Americans wrongfully detained abroad. She joins Emma Barnett in the studio.In the UK, breast cancer is the most common type of cancer; around 55,000 women are diagnosed every year. Emma speaks to Professor Canan Dagdeviren, who has invented a piece of wearable tech that fits inside a bra which may lead, one day in the future, to the creation of an ultrasound bra, able to screen for breast cancer in between check-ups. Canan featured on the BBC’s 100 Women list for 2023 and first sketched the idea at her aunt Fatma’s bedside, who had been diagnosed with breast cancer.From Queen Camilla to Monica Lewinsky, has the perception of mistresses changed in recent decades? Someone who believes that the so-called 'other woman' has had a cultural rebrand is the author Madeleine Gray, who has written a novel about an affair - but from the perspective of the mistress. Green Dot follows 24-year-old Hera who starts a messy relationship with an older married colleague. Madeleine joins Emma to discuss.How do black girls and women experience education in Britain today? Sociologist Dr April-Louise Pennant of Cardiff University joins Emma to discuss why the adultification of black girls means that Black Caribbean girls are excluded from school at double the rate of white girls and why intersectionality means the issue of afro hair continues to affect black girls' education today. She explores these issues and more in her book, Babygirl, You’ve Got This! Experiences of Black Girls and Women in the English Education System.Presenter: Emma Barnett Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today is one of those days where I'm able to say that what you're about to hear, you won't hear anywhere else. That's because what's happened to my first guest is so incredibly distressing and important in terms of the state of the world that we're living in right now. Diane Foley's son, the American journalist James Foley, was tortured and killed in 2014 by Islamic State militants who became known as the IS Beatles on account of their British accents and upbringing. These men left the UK for Syria, in their view, to fight a war.

I'll tell you more about Diane and her beloved boy in just a moment, but my conversation with her comes on the same day that the man Sir William Shawcross, tasked with reviewing the UK government's counter-terrorism scheme, Prevent, is warning that key recommendations he's made have been ignored, leaving the public at risk. He believes Prevent is failing to identify terrorist sympathisers in this country, and has admitted that he felt more worried about extremism in the UK after Hamas's 7th of October attacks on Israel, and that counter-terrorism officials should pay more attention to the Hamas support network in the UK. He also

talks of people in this country being more frightened than before. And I wonder, as you listen to Diane Foley this morning and the place she has come to since losing her son, how you feel? As ever, the programme is made better by your contribution. So if you feel you can or want to get in touch, the number is 848-84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website or WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Also on today's programme,

I'll be joined by the creator of the invention nicknamed the ultrasound bra set to potentially revolutionise breast cancer diagnosis. We'll also have an appraisal of how black women and girls experience education in Britain today and why one woman wants to defend the other woman, the so-called mistress. All of that to come and more. But in 2012, the American journalist James Foley was kidnapped in northern Syria by Islamic State militants. Eighteen months later, after being tortured, waterboarded and subjected to mock executions, he was killed by those people, specifically that group referred to as the IS Beatles.

James Foley was beheaded on camera and the video of his murder was uploaded online, sending shockwaves across the world. His mother, Diane Foley, only received a call from the then President Barack Obama three days later to confirm her son's killing. Instead, she had found out the worst information a parent can receive by an image that had been sent to her. She decided to meet one of those who tortured her son and was involved in his execution and has dedicated her life since to trying to improve what happens to hostages and their families. This has culminated in an incredibly powerful book simply called American Mother written with the author Colin McCann and I'm very happy to be able to say Diane Foley's joined me in the Woman's House studio this morning. A warm welcome Diane.

Thank you so much Emma. Could we start with James and his aspirations and dreams of being a journalist? Did you understand what that would mean in terms of where he might go and the dangers he may face? I was quite ignorant of the dangers that journalists face today, particularly in conflict zones. But just in general, I think if journalists are doing true investigative journalism, they can be targets. So I was very unaware, but I was delighted that he had found something he was so passionate about. And I should say you had other children in the military. So you were used in some way to risks associated with your children's work. Exactly. Yeah. So I didn't realize that Jim's work was even more risky. And you call him Jim, I should say,

I introduced him with his full name. What was he like as a person? I think it's important to get that sense. Sure. Jim was our oldest son, and oh, it really was a joy. He was a very curious young man, loved life, loved people, loved books. He loved to be read to, and as he got older, everywhere he went, he had a book, a good book. But was a good friend and loved to hear people's stories. He was extraordinary listener. And he really enjoyed hearing what was happening in people's lives. So, you know, a skill that was very helpful as a journalist. Yes, listening is always a key part of that,

I find certainly. But it is something that people may not know or remember about him is that this wasn't the first time that he was kidnapped. It actually happened before, hadn't it, while traveling in Libya? American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. But when the Arab Spring started in 2011, he did go to northern Libya and was kidnapped for six months, six weeks, excuse me. But that was very different because it was witnessed by a New York Times reporter, and we really knew where he was. It was still not easy to get him out, however. How did you cope with that experience and that news? We were so shocked. I mean, we totally were shocked.

It brought my husband and I to our knees. We were in worry and prayer, really. And it was our second oldest son who really went to bat for his brother, really pausing his career and going to Washington and seeing what could be done. Did you ever have a thought that it could happen again because he continued in the line of work and with going to dangerous places? We really didn't. We thought it was a random occurrence. And we were totally shocked when in November of 2012, he was kidnapped on his way out of Syria, on his way back to the Turkish border. When he went, just to take a step back for a moment, when he went to Syria as a family, having had that experience, were you in any way able to say to him of your concerns or speak to him in that way? Absolutely. And he had, and his friends, and we were all kept asking him why he wanted to do this and were against it in so many ways.

But he was so passionate about it and had been in and out of Syria many times that year of 2012. And taking safety courses was really going under the radar. Felt he was doing his best to keep safe. And he felt he had promises to keep to so many people. They are yearning for the freedom we just take for granted at times. He did go, which is where we're at now and in this story. Excuse me. No, of course.

And I just, where were you? What was the way that you found out that he had been captured again? Well, it was the day after our U.S. Thanksgiving Day, and it was odd that he had not been in touch with us. It was kind of like an ominous absence of his, a call from him. And the next morning, we received a call from his colleagues that he had not returned from, he had not met them at the meeting place. And the driver said that he and John Cantley had been kidnapped. And did you get this confirmed in any way? Yes, the US consul called me early later that day. And from that point on, how did life look? How were you trying to navigate a situation actually you'd been in before but was different? Yeah, this was different because nobody knew who had taken him. Right. Even the driver had no idea because many foreign fighters were coming into the country, taking advantage of the civil war that was beginning.

And he had no idea. And we did not know for the next eight months if Jim was dead or alive. We had no idea. In those eight months, I'm sorry, please have some auto notes. It's difficult anyway to talk, but especially with that. But in those eight months, did it become clear who had him? Well, not really, because Global Post of Boston was trying to help us. And they felt sure that Assad had captured him and that he was in

Damascus. But that did not seem correct. And it turns out it wasn't. And later in the fall of 2012, we received a call from a father of a former Belgian jihadist, actually, who told us that Jim was in a jail in northern Syria with one of the jihadist groups. We didn't know which one at that time. You were in touch with the American government, I imagine, in any way you could be. This is under Barack Obama. There was a hard line on not negotiating with terrorists, despite European countries, I should say, negotiating to free their hostages, Spain, Denmark, France. How aware of that were you, that policy? I was, again, terribly ignorant of it, Emma. And I quit my job in the spring of 2012, shortly after he

was kidnapped. And I just began trips to Washington to try to figure out who could help me. And it was very, it was a very frightening time because there was really nobody. Everyone kept referring me to someone else. I was in circles, if you will. And I, yeah, I really, but they kept reassuring me that Jim was their highest priority. And no one talked about our stance against negotiating. And I mean, you had to do what comes across, you know, from what you said and how you're talking now, you were having to do a lot on your own. You were having to try and figure out different elements of this. Totally.

I was, we were as a family totally alone, except for the support of two of the news outlets, Agence France-Presse and Global Post of Boston. Both provided support and were trying to help us, but no one in the government, really. How do you feel about Barack Obama now and that administration, knowing what you know now now before we get to how you find out what happens to your son? Well, at the time, I trusted our government. It was 18 months of everyone reassuring me over and over that Jim was their highest priority. And actually, in early 2014, when the Spanish and the French came out, we were initially quite hopeful. We thought, well, you know, they're coming out. But shortly after that, I became aware Jim was not alone.

He was not the only American. There were three other Americans with him and two British citizens. And when I actually went to France because I knew there were hostages there, and I was so impressed with the French advocacy. The French journalists were advocating so hard for their journalists to come home and insisting the government would bring them home. And that was so different than what I was experiencing in the US. I mentioned that you found out what had happened to your son going forward in those months, if I may, by somebody getting in touch and an image. Right. It was an AP journalist who called me sobbing. Have you seen the image on Twitter? You know, I could hardly hear what she was saying. And that's how we found out. But at that time,

I thought, well, maybe it's just photoshopped maybe it's just a cruel image that is not real. When did it become real? It became real when President Obama went on national TV and told us that Jim had been killed. And that was before he spoke to you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I really feel all of us were incredibly shocked, but even our government was shocked. any idea of the level of hatred and how the jihadists planned to use the abandoned Americans and British, really. How did you feel?

I was so angry, Emma. I was really very angry at our country for the way I had been treated, and particularly the way Jim was like a non-entity to them. I was, I just, it was really shortly after all that that I just resolved that we as a country had to do better. America could do better. That we had to have the backs of our brave, innocent people who are targeted abroad simply for being a U.S. citizen. You say in the book there is no word for a parent losing a child. There's words for orphan. There's words for being widowed.

What made you think about that? Because it's not anything a parent ever wants to imagine. You know, we want to be long gone. We want our kids to live on and thrive and do great things in the world. And so it's the worst nightmare of a parent, really. You also write, you were sundered, torn apart, the pulverizing shock of hatred's power. And that's what hatred does. Everybody loses when we hate one another. Everybody.

Everybody loses. We lost our gym, so much suffering in Syria, now in Gaza, Ukraine. It's just so appalling, you know. And you are in this situation, which if you don't mind me bringing this up, the world, if it wanted to, could watch what had happened to your boy.

There is this other element of this, and I know you haven't watched that, but you may have done. There may have been an accident. There could have been that, and it's another element of war. Absolutely, and it was horrific propaganda that at the time the media showed it. I just think we are all shocked at the inhumanity of it all. But since then, thank God, I mean, there's no need to show that sort of violence. Our world doesn't need that.

But at the time time it was very horrific it was aired over and over and over again and one of your sons, one of your other sons I believe did see yeah, he just was very close to Jim and wanted to, I don't know experience what Jim had gone through that pulverizing shock of hatred's power some will be surprised that you then took the decision to meet one of the men who took part in the kidnap and the torture of your son. I'm talking about Alexander Cody from the UK, was captured in Syria, extradited to America.

Why did you make that choice? Well, I knew Jim would have seen him. And I knew Jim would not have wanted me to be afraid of him at all. Jim had actually worked with a lot of youth like Alexander, you know, youth who were kind of on the edge, you know, lost his dad and an immigrant, really, to a different country where he may not have fit in. And Jim had worked with inner city youth and felons in Chicago, actually. Jim was always interested in the underdog, you know, the plight of folks that may not have fit in and such. So for all those reasons, I was sure I would go when he, he's the one that offered the opportunity. It was part of, and the other thing that was different about Alexander is he pleaded guilty to all eight counts. He did not fight any of the allegations against him. And part of the plea deal was he was willing to speak with victims. And how was that? I'm very glad I did. Because

it's definitely what Jim would have done. And it gave me an opportunity. I made myself listen to his justification and what he was feeling, his turmoil about the fact that he'd been a soldier at war. And we really had a very good conversation because he also was willing to listen to me, and he was willing to listen to my telling him that Jim and the others were noncombatants. They were aid workers, journalists.

Because is it right that you found out that Jim was subjected to some of the worst treatment on account of being American? Right. And that's a tragedy of it all. I mean, I'm sure to Alexander and the others, Jim and the other British citizen epitomize all that we have done wrong in the world. You know, our nations have not been perfect. And I think they were thinking of Abu Ghraib and other horrible times after 9-11. And so there was a great deal of hatred, and it is, towards our country. Did you feel any of that hatred and that sort of aggression, that murderous aggression from him? Not at all. Not at all. He had been two years isolated from other colleagues. He had been,

you know, initially arrested back in 2018. So he, in 2022, he's had a lot of time to ponder and read and pray. I mean, I think he is a man of faith and not at all. He actually expressed tremendous remorse towards me. Could you accept that? It appeared genuine. I asked because I was so struck by you know there are different ways people respond in in an extraordinary scenario but to loss as well and when i asked you about the government the u.s government and barack obama your first word your first response

was anger right but going into this meeting were you in a different place would you use that word because there are many parents if they were meeting someone who was involved with the execution of their child, that word would be a big part of how they were going in that day. human being. I wanted to be intentional about that and give him an opportunity to share his whys and such. So no, no, I did not. And the result really was just a feeling of what hatred begets. It begets such loss. I mean, Alexander will never see his family again, probably never come back to his country, and never be free again. And we lost our beloved Jim. So we all lost. So it was incredibly sad. It was just very sad.

And it was the first time you'd cried in public since finding out about the loss of your son in that room. Well, he did also. He showed me pictures of his three darling little girls at that time still in a refugee camp in northern Syria. Yeah, it was sad, Emma. We all lost. Everybody lost. How do you feel today? Because your work, it sounds very much like you're inspired by your son and his ethos to life and his questioning and his listening.

That's coming through from even the decision to go and sit with Alexander. But when I mentioned, just if I bring your mind to what I said about the UK and safety and terrorism and sympathizers in this country, and there'll be your own situation in America. You know, it is important, I suppose, on your personal journey to find those moments and have these learnings. But how are you feeling about our safety and those who move in that direction have sympathy towards terrorists at the moment and where we are with that? Well, I mean, I think this was a unique situation with Alexander because he was being remorseful

and he, you know, we all make mistakes. That's the frightening part about humanity, right? I mean, we are capable of such good, but also evil. We can make stupid choices, horrible choices. And that was the case with Alexander. But I feel that the targeting of Westerners is becoming a true national security threat. I don't think there's any question about that. And that's why the James Foley Legacy Foundation is working very hard

not only to prioritize the return of our citizens who find themselves kidnapped or targeted for being citizens abroad, but also to work collectively with the international community about deterrence. I mean, we need to be aware of this threat, take it very seriously when we're traveling abroad. And, you know, two things to say at this point as well. You later did find out, you found out that there was a secret mission to try and save your son. How would you describe that? I don't want to get that wrong from your point of view. No, it was a very brave effort on the part of some of our troops, which I'm deeply grateful for, but it was executed much too late.

It was really executed after everyone else who was negotiating was out safely. And so those that remained were condemned to be used as propaganda and they were moved. So our troops performed that risky operation really for nothing. Thank God they were not injured. Well, I mean, the other thing I was going to say is, and this is part of your work now, is there has been a change in the approach to what happens when a hostage is taken in America. Exactly. And I give credit to President Obama. Unfortunately, it took the deaths of six Americans to make this momentous change. Barack Obama in 2015 had issued a presidential policy directive that set up the U.S. hostage enterprise,

which is quite robust and multifaceted. We have an interagency fusion cell, a State Department special envoy, and hostage recovery group at the White House. But still, the negotiating of hostages when they're held by terrorist groups or criminals or other nations is incredibly difficult. It is very complex, requires very shrewd negotiation. And, you know, having interviewed, I did the first interview with Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe after she was eventually released from her situation, her captivity, having been kidnapped in Iran. And I spoke to her husband many, many times over those years, and Richard Ratcliffe painted a very clear picture again of how it can be trying to exist alongside government officials and policies that you don't always know. Oh, I certainly applaud Richard's brave advocacy. Nezunian's home because of him.

I mean, and that's what we found in the U.S. Citizens, people who've experienced the horror of this need to speak up and need for the good of others so that it might not happen to others. It's our policies need to be aware of the huge threat it really is. You mentioned the new policy and President Biden, just to say in a statement we got from the State Department, it says here, President Biden and Secretary Blinken are personally committed to securing the release of Americans who are wrongfully detained or held hostage overseas. 45 Americans have been brought home over the past three years. Our efforts will continue until all Americans wrongfully detained or held hostage are reunited with their families. The powerful thing about you being with us today is also our listeners and their response.

And if I could just read you a couple of messages that have come in listening to Diane Foley. It just strikes me that if there were people like her in the world and her forgiveness and trying to find understanding of her son's killer and amazing what she has accomplished, that we need more people like you and what she's accomplished since. I'm sure her son would be so proud of what she has done with her grief. Another, I'm absolutely humbled by the bravery and sheer humanity of Jim's mother. She's truly amazing.

And as she prays for others, I shall pray for her. And another, I'm listening to Mrs Foley and I'm in tears. I have sons and I cannot bear to think of losing either of them. I'm full of admiration for her strength, her compassion, and for having met one of her son's murderers and is willing to call him by his name. I cannot really express what I feel, but I want to say that she enables me to believe

that there is goodness in this world and that ultimately love is stronger than hate. And that's from one of our listeners who's signed off as Linda. That's beautiful. Now, Jim aspired to be a man of moral courage. So that is our tagline. And our youth need that encouragement and, you know, just challenge, really, that they can make a huge difference in the world. They can be that bit of good that can make a difference, you know. So that's one of my biggest hopes, is that we can inspire others to do their part. Thank you for talking to me and to all of us this morning. Such a pleasure.

Diane Foley, and the book with Colin McCann is simply called American Mother. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for your messages. I'm sure we'll receive more and I'll come to them. I'm Sarah Treleaven,

and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. S settle in. Available now. As I can.

I did mention, though, that we would be able to hear from someone this morning who has been working for a long time to try and improve life for many women, if we talk about doing good in the world, and their families, I should say, because to put it into domestic context, but I could give you global figures, of course, as well. But in the UK, one woman is diagnosed with breast cancer every 10 minutes and around 55,000 women diagnosed every year. My next guest has dedicated her last six and a half years to trying to create this device to detect the disease sooner. It's been nicknamed the ultrasound bra. Her first prototype is now complete,

a wearable, flexible ultrasound patch that sits in the cup of a bra held in place by magnets. It's able to screen for breast cancer in between check-ups, which is pretty crucial, I'm sure you would say, and could offer a less painful and more frequent method of screening compared to mammograms. The final product is expected to become available in the next few years, but let's hear more about it from the Associate Professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology,

known as MIT, Janan Dardaviran. Janan, good morning. Good morning. You first sketched this some time ago, and I believe that when you are, and it's wonderful to speak to somebody who creates and who invents you are often inspired by the issues in your own family and those around you tell us a bit more sure particularly for this technology it was inspired by my late aunt who passed away because of breast cancer despite the fact that she had regular breast screening. But she got the cancer in between two mammography, which is called internal cancer. And oftentimes, it is the most

aggressive phenotype among women. And by the time you are diagnosed, it is already too late. So your survival rate drops to 22%. And it is in this century, to me is very shocking and very unfortunate. And so for my technologies, as you stated very well, they were, they are usually inspired by my family members and dear friends who are suffering from very devastating diseases. And one of them in this scenario was the breast cancer and I sketched this technology on a piece of paper by sitting on the bedside of my late aunt just to comfort her it was at that moment just to comfort her just to you know she was living her last 12 days with me and I was lucky to visit her in netherland where she lived at that time and I was saying to my own hand what do you think if you have an ultrasound bra like that

which can enable frequent screening so that it will not be late and your survival rate will increase up to 98 and she loved the idea she was giving me the feedback while being in pain. And I experienced those moments very well. And then, of course, it took some time for me to develop this device with my amazing team members at MIT as being faculty. I'm really privileged to work with this amazing young minds. And it took around six and a half years to complete it. And now it's real. It's not a dream on a piece of paper. It's real. I can feel it. I can laminate it on people's breasts and you can see any anomalies within sub seconds, literally while drinking your coffee. And it's non-painless. You just laminate it on your breast. It's a part of your daily bra.

You don't need an operator. You don't need a skilled person to operate it. You can do it at home. And would you need to wear it all the time? How often would you need to wear it? You don't need to wear it all the time. You can wear it once in a week, once in a month. And indeed, we are right now thinking and designing how frequent we should have women to wear it.

But just to say, even you can wear it every single day while brushing your teeth and you can capture the data. And the idea is you can capture lots of data and with big data and with machine learning you can even estimate what will happen to your very personal part your anomaly in your breast tissue how it's going to change even throughout the medication so this will be also a way not only early breast detection also imagine you might have cancer and how this cancer is going to progress while you're under medication to offer even a personalized treatment. We can change the drug regimen based on the morphology or the progression of your tumor while monitoring it real time. Well, I was going to say, I know our listeners will be thinking, when, when, when? When can we

have this? I've seen a video of it. should say you know it's quite a large uh bit of kit that goes over your your breast into your bra um and they would be really keen I'm sure everybody is really keen to get a hold of this you obviously had to have it funded I know that can be a bit of an obstacle uh and also getting funding as a as a woman working in this space can be interesting, I imagine, as well. Actually, it is. Again, in this century, it's really very surprising and very unfortunate that female technologies are very much under supported, underfunded, and thus under-explored. But I took a very dramatic pivot in my research portfolio. And I said proudly, I am solely focusing on female technology as being a female. I realized how much less I know about my body last one and a half year when I became pregnant. And my baby told me that we know so little about woman's body. Throughout the

pregnancy, all my body and hormones change, and there was no way for me to understand what's going on in my body. And I was like, okay, now it's my time. I will just examine my own body. And I started breast cancer, and this was kind of the process here at MIT. And when it will be ready, back to your question, now our first prototype is ready, and we are writing grants and seeking funding to take it to the next level. And once we have enough funding to pursue this work, it can be ready in market after the FDA approvals

with intensive human trials within three and four years, not more than that. So it's non-invasive technology. It's a variable technology based on safe and proven ultrasound science. So it will be very, very fast to get the approval and be in the market. What will it mean for you to have it out there? It will mean to me without knowing those people people like my own I will be helping those women and I will be helping those individuals to empower themselves and their families the people around them like me and also as a young researcher, it's a motivation for the next forthcoming studies. Not only that, it's a testament for the young generation. Yes, it takes time, yet you need to work a lot, but at the end, it pays off.

You do something for the next generation. You do something for the entire world. With our humble calculation, this technology can save 12 million lives per year globally. Breathtaking ambition and goal that you're working on and what a thing to be able to try to achieve and bring together. And I know you also want to make sure it gets out to women who are some of the most vulnerable and not able to access uh you know even basic health care exactly yeah you said very well some women even don't have um they have barriers to this kind of technology they have no idea what mammography is what ultrasonography is and i should mention that one scan for this technology on your breast tissue less than a cup of coffee, less than $3.

So you will be able to examine your own breast tissue less than $3 compared to $2,000 that you do every two years at the medical setting. So it will also change the entire landscape and we will enable medical professionals and and we'll also decrease a lot of burden, financial burden at the government's level too. Ten and a half years work is what I think I've added up there it will be when it gets out there you hope. What a project, what a hope, what a creation. I hope to talk to you again when you're in that next stage and hear about the progress. Jananda

Devere, an Associate Professor at MIT, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with what's been nicknamed the Ultrasound Bra, but we wanted to give you the detail on that and fascinating it is too. Now I mentioned that one of my guests today wanted to talk

about the other woman, as she can sometimes be known. Other words include mistresses and ones I probably can't broadcast. But she still thinks there's a great deal to be done to even out the blame for infidelity in our society. Madeleine Grey, who I'm talking about, she's been cheated on herself and despite that experience, thinks infidelity shouldn't be seen as the most important and worst thing a person can do to break up a relationship. She's also written a novel about an affair, but from the perspective of the so-called mistress. Green Dot follows 24-year-old Hera, who's started a messy relationship with an older married colleague. Madeleine Gray, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. What started your interest in this? Was it your own experience of having been cheated on? I'd like to say that that would make for a very convenient narrative. Unfortunately not, or not unfortunately not, I don't even know why I said that. Basically, I work as a literary critic as well as a novelist and I've been writing about affair novels for a really long time and they mostly happen to be about younger women who were sleeping with older men and that just seemed like a really curious dynamic to still be occurring in so many novels in this day and age where women ostensibly can make any choice and don't have to rely on men for money or for housing. And I wanted to explore why a woman who could do anything else would take such a normative kind of trope for her

romantic life. So that's how it began. So women writing about this are doing this as well as the idea of men? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So mostly I was reading books by young women, Raven Alani's Luster is an example, Conversations with Friends by Sally Rooney. But you've even got, you know, matriarchs of fiction like Anne Enright, who wrote The Forgotten Waltz, which is another classic affair novel. There are lots of novels about this kind of dynamic.

Do you think the cultural norm has been reshaped by people, though, you know, by those outside of the literary sphere, that it has already changed in some ways? Or where do you think we are with that? I think it's certainly changing in the sense that I do think the mistress, the figure of the mistress is having a kind of renaissance. as a culture we are reckoning with the idea that she's a figure who we should perhaps extend more empathy towards than we previously have and I think a lot of representations of mistresses in popular culture in the past she's been seen as a Machiavellian hussy or a very sad woman who will kind of take take the dregs of another woman's love life and I think there is a shift occurring even we can see that in will kind of take the dregs of another woman's love life.

And I think there is a shift occurring. Even we can see that in the kind of vindication narratives of people like Monica Lewinsky, who was so vilified in the press and now is an anti-bullying advocate and a huge public figure for women's rights. And in the UK as well, we have the figure of the queen consort Camilla who started her relationship with the king as the other woman in the relationship and now I think even though lots of people still have mixed feelings about her, the narrative has shifted

so that people can understand that she and Charles really love each other and they can see that as a legitimate relationship without just hating her. And with your research, though, are you hoping to make it that we hate men and women who cheat equally, if I could put it as blunt as that, and even it up? Or are you looking to try and change completely

how we view infidelity? Because, you know, you're never going to feel well predisposed to the person who comes um as you view it uh even if it is your partner's fault as well you're never going to feel good towards if you're a woman and you're in a heterosexual relationship that other woman are you no yeah and i think that's totally fair you're never going to like that person and as you said in my introduction i personally have been cheated on and i'm aware that there's a lot of pain involved in being the woman who finds out that her partner has been unfaithful in a monogamous relationship but I think that what's kind of what I wanted to explore was the redistribution of blame not so much that

I want men and women to be blamed equally, but I want to shift the blame away just from the women in the triangle. I think so often the blame is on the mistress as the person who tempted the man away, and that's in a heterosexual kind of triangle. And what that does is suggest that the man doesn't have agency or control of his own body. And it tends to abnegate the person who's actually cheating of any responsibility. And that's where I'd like to shift the narrative. Do you think we could do that? I mean, you've given a few examples there, but they're quite specific as well, those examples. You know, they include hugely famous individuals, offices of power, and people will also have attached a lot of narratives to those people as well. I think post Me Too at least when we're understanding erotic power differentials a bit more differently and with a bit more nuance. And we're seeing, especially when there's an age gap in an affair, if the woman is younger, that there might have been some cohesion or a sense that she felt she had to perform an erotic duty to stay within a workplace or something like that.

And so I think there's definitely a shift occurring with more sympathy and empathy towards that woman. I wouldn't say that as a culture, we are shifting towards extending empathy as much to a woman who knowingly and with agency goes into an affair. And it's not to say she's unapologetic, but we can't see her as a victim. And I think we don't have much sympathy for that woman. And just to go back to, as a final thought, if I can, the idea that perhaps it's not the worst thing to happen in a relationship. I mean, we are also talking where I know that monogamy is still the majority. It's still the norm when people are in relationships.

But people are now exploring through apps, certainly different ways of having their relationships and being more open what do you mean by looking at infidelity and perhaps also a different um a different concept a ratio of what can be the thing that is the most shocking or worst thing about a relationship yeah so i think how i've been thinking about this and it's in terms of like, what is the line that we draw in relationships when we no longer support someone being our partner? And I've certainly talked to a lot of people in my research, sounds too highfalutin a word because I'm just a novelist, but I'm looking at how women sometimes absolutely forgive a partner who could, you know, atrophy their sense of self over years and years and years or be extremely financially manipulative over years and years. And those kind of things can be forgiven. But as soon as there is some adulterous debt taken, that can be seen as where the line is drawn in the sand. And I think that's a real indictment of

the high value we place on monogamy as a construct. And I think we need to unpick that and think, what are we actually valuing here? What is monogamy holding up? You've got a lot to do, Madeline. I don't know if you're doing this with others. Maybe you should be less monogamous in the pursuit. But it's quite deeply rooted things there that also are just good to talk about, I suppose, and think about slightly differently. It's interesting, this message that's just come in, no name on it, perhaps unsurprisingly, which says from one of our listeners, I have been the other woman, in quotation marks, three times. I've taken the rap for failed marriages.

It's easy for society to blame the woman. It's in our DNA, Adam and Eve, the woman made me do it, all of that. It's illogical, Adam and Eve, the woman made me do it, all of that. It's illogical, unfair, and a version of bullying. The pack mentality, a woman cannot steal a man, he makes his own choices. Although perhaps some people- Well said. Well, some people may be inclined to reply

why she's been the other woman three times or why she's found herself in that scenario. If she's got that mentality, I suppose you can get with people who are single. That is the other side of that view but we're talking there about how blame is apportioned. Madeleine Gray thank you very much for coming to talk to us this morning. Thank you for having me. The book's called Green Dot. Let's talk now though I mentioned an appraisal of how black women and girls experience education in Britain today because that's the question and

is being asked, but also being answered by the sociologist, Dr. April Louise Pennant of Cardiff University, who's done years of research on this and spoken to black women and girls around England and across the UK, I'm sure. The most recent Department of Education figures, this is really important, I think, to bring out at this point, collated by the Agenda Alliance,

that's the feminist campaigning group, show that in the years 2021 to 2022, academic, in that year, girls from a black Caribbean background were excluded from school at double the rate of white British girls. Dr. April Louise Pennant, good morning. Good morning and thanks for having me. Yeah, well, it's something that we've talked a little bit at times, you know, on themes on this, but bringing it together and having that overview is what you've tried to do and is obviously an important piece of work. What would you say, first of all, to that statistic around the idea of exclusion?

Well, what I would say to that is, firstly, even though we're a big group of Black, there's differences in terms of Black Caribbean experiences, Black African experiences and so on. But I would also say that it links to this idea of adultification, right? The idea that, based on a report by Janine Davis, that Black children in particular, especially especially black girls are not afforded the protection their innocence is taken away they're seen as older and therefore they're not protected or safeguarded within educational spaces in particular and this leads to also the ways in which black girls are perceived right being unruly having attitude attitude, you know, having to be basically managed more harsher in order to get them to fit in in these spaces. So it leads to huger issues around the stories behind these

statistics and the ways in which black girls and women in educational spaces are not treated equally or fairly. And, you know, the idea of adultification came up greatly in a very high profile story. The individuals only referred to as Child Q, the assault on the black schoolgirl, just to remind our listeners. And, you know, what happened to her? Tell us a bit about that and how that fits in. Yeah, so in my book, I talk about different experiences after speaking to around 42 black girls and women. And the idea of how black girls and women are positioned as unruly was some of my findings, right? So the idea that, you know,

they're labelled, they're treated differently and more harsher. So in the case of Child Q, you know, she was assumed to smell of weed and therefore needed to be strip searched even though she was on her period right and it wasn't like appropriate adults with her so she was completely not handled with care protection and this leads by the police sorry I was just going to say by the police yes but also she was allowed that was allowed by the staff in the school, right? So I think this just leads also to intersectionality, the idea of how devalued identities such as gender and race, which can also expand to class, can come together and essentially make the plight and experiences of black girls and women invisible and just show how they have these difficult and often traumatic experiences and are not protected.

And I mean, there's a message that just came in, interestingly as well. I know you've been trying to distinguish as well with experience that you're talking about. I hope you distinguish reads this message from one of our listeners between black and mixed race girls as well. Because, you know, a lot of people will say there there's differences i don't know what you'd say to

that um i definitely agree um my i did have some mixed race participants that um participated but i was mostly about black girls and the same way there's differences between caribbean and african there's also differences between mixed race dark dark skinned black women and so forth. And what are some of the examples that are going to stick with you that you think from these years of research our listeners should hear? Well, I think the idea of hair, that's been a big thing within educational spaces, right? The way in which it's perceived to be unprofessional or perceived to be against all uniform policies you know whether it's in its afro form or even if it's braided or in my case I wore ribbons one day to school and it was seen as you know signaling gang affiliation which was very odd particularly where the school was

right so these just these associations and the way in which you know it's essentially upholding Eurocentric standards of beauty, Eurocentric standards of acceptance and what is right and how basically just being and existing as a black woman or girl is perceived to be in opposition. And on that example, which, you know, for you, you've actually got quite a unique vantage point, having gone through some of the state school system and the private school system

what's your I mean I know again it's specific to those institutions and you but what would you say you can draw from that well I think my experience in both the private and state sector and English education system from primary school all the way to PhD level it opened up my eyes especially when doing my research and being trained, to see how based on your class, based on your gender, based on your race and ethnicity, it kind of determines what access you have to different kinds of schools, different kinds of educational institutions, as well as your experiences within them, good and bad, right? But it also showed as well the importance of having knowledgeable parents, resources such as your cultural identity, your confidence, your pride in self, which can also help to navigate the whiteness of the education system, regardless of where it is you are attending.

Because we should say that sometimes, and I don't know if you think this, that the focus can be on what's happening to black boys also on white boys but do you worry that there isn't the focus on on girls well i think um that is a big thing right a lot of the british educational research even though there's been more recent studies focused on black girls but it's focused on black boys or america and black girls have been basically left under the radar. And while this is important because black boys are struggling, black girls are actually not doing as much better. And there's also other things there such as mental health, like well-being, you know, this externalised and internalised pressure, all these different nuances which come together based on anti-black gendered racism and classism.

What are you hoping to achieve with this piece of work? Well, as the name of the book is Baby Girl, you've got this. It's meant to be about empowerment. It's meant to be about affirmation. It's meant to be about centring alternative perspective of something that we all go through, right? I use the analogy of a 26 miles marathon to show that you know the education system in itself requires a lot

of practice a lot of understanding and stamina but actually for black girls and women we're a 26 mile steeplechase where we're jumping over multiple hurdles of racism, classism, sexism, as well as having to navigate with our own resources, which are just not accepted. Do you think that, it's a great, great title, maybe we'll get to that in a moment. But do you think the way, if you're listening to this and you're a parent and you're trying to think how to prepare your daughter, if they relate to this, that you should say this sort of stuff to them or let them go in and navigate? Do you have to kind of pre-warn, do you think, and pre-educate

as to what the steeplechase to keep your metaphor going may entail? Of course. Unfortunately, it's a reality for many black girls and women, my personal experiences as well as many others, right? The education system inherently has many inequalities. It's embedded in classism, it's embedded in racism, it's embedded in sexism. And when that all comes together, it creates a completely unique experiences for black girls and women, as well as other marginalized communities. So with this book, I'm saying, this is what it is. This is how we need to change it to create social justice for all.

But particularly for black girls and women, this is how you can navigate so that you can thrive, as well as thinking of other solutions to make it better for future generations. And baby girl? We've got this. Yeah, that's the name. Why did we go for that? Why did you go for that? Well, it's affirmation, right? It's what I used to talk to my black girlfriends. And it's a pep talk for myself, right? When you feel you can't do it, when there's loads of barriers that you have to overcome,

which you don't even know you are overcoming until you've finished and looked back, you've got this. We've had this for generations. We've been doing it continuously and we will continue to do it regardless of the obstacles Well I did my postgrad at Cardiff University so it would have been a joy to have been

taught by you Thank you There's some good energy there Thank you very much for coming to talk to us this morning Dr April Louise Pennant I hope it's not raining there

it often was I'll probably get in trouble for saying that but I ended up using wellies instead of shoes while I was there trying to learn shorthand. And I never did get good at shorthand. Dr. April Louise Pennant. The book is called Baby Girl.

You've got this. Thank you so much for your company this morning. Keep it with us on Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Marianna Spring, the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent, and I've learned firsthand that the online world can be a breeding ground for hate. But why do some people behave the way they do on social media? For BBC Radio 4, I'm meeting the people at the heart of some extraordinary online conflicts to see if understanding, even forgiveness, is ever possible. Listen to Why Do You Hate Me on BBC Sounds.

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