Woman's Hour - Mixed sex civil partnerships. Second Mums. DJ Lucy Edwards

Episode Date: December 31, 2019

Civil partnerships have been in place for same-sex couples since December 2005 but as of today they're open to mixed sex couples. We hear from the campaigners, Rebecca Steinfield and Charles Keidan who first appeared on the programme nearly six years ago after they announced their intention to be civilly married in the Jewish Chronicle. Since then they've fought to be able to legally register their union. We hear from them today as they are finally able to become civil partners in the eyes of the law.Yesterday a 19 year-old woman was found guilty of lying about being gang-raped in Ayia Napa in Cyprus. She withdrew her allegation after a lengthy late night interrogation by police during which no lawyer was present. She will be sentenced next week. Women’s groups and criminal justice campaigners have expressed their concerns about the police investigation, and the judge's handling of her case. Joan Smith explains her concerns about the conviction and what is likely to happen next. Sue Elliott Nicholls has had a lot of mothers, some were hers and some she has deliberately found for herself for a little extra maternal back up. She thought it was just her thing but it turns out that spare mother-figures are more common than we might think. Lucy Edwards made history last week when she became the first blind person to present their own show on BBC Radio 1. She joins Jane to discuss her ambitions and what she's learned from her first shows.Presenter Jane Garvey. Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Rebecca Steinfield Guest; Charles Keidan Guest; Lucy Edwards Guest; Joan SmithReporter Sue Elliott Nicholls

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Today we'll mark the fact that civil partnerships are now available to all couples in England and Wales. You'll hear about that later in the programme today. We'll discuss the notion of second mums. Is there somebody in your life who plays that part? And I'm really looking forward to a geeky radio chat with Lucy Edwards, who is Radio 1's first ever blind presenter,

incredibly. She's fantastic. Lucy Edwards will join us live on Woman's Hour this morning. First, the story that dominates many of the newspaper front pages today. It's also been much discussed across the BBC over the last 24 hours or so. The 19-year-old British woman found guilty of lying about a gang rape in Cyprus. A foreign office spokesman has said the case was deeply distressing. The young woman had withdrawn her allegation after a lengthy late-night interrogation by the police and there was no lawyer present. She's going to be sentenced next week,

when she could face up to a year in prison and a fine. Women's groups and criminal justice campaigners have expressed huge concern about the police investigation, about the judge, and about the handling of this case, and indeed, attitudes to women generally in Cypriot society. Although, of course, these issues, these problems, are certainly not confined to the island of Cyprus. Joan Smith joins us. She's a journalist, a feminist campaigner and chair of the Mayor of London's Violence Against Women and Girls Board.

Joan, first of all, the intervention of the Foreign Office, the fact that a spokesman has said this case is deeply distressing, that is unusual and surely significant. It's very unusual. The British government had kept out of this case until now. And I think there was quite a widespread hope that this trial would end in an acquittal. And the fact that it hasn't, and that a young woman who actually, who alleges that she is the victim of a very serious crime could be facing a prison sentence. I think that's what has moved the British government to act, but it is very rare. What could it do?

That's actually very hard to work out. I mean, I'm sure that, you know, whatever's being said in public, there's stuff going on behind the scenes. Obviously, the young woman's lawyers are going to appeal. And, you know, one would hope that it was, you know, this verdict was overturned on appeal. But the real danger at the moment is that in a week's time, she could be sent to prison. And instead of starting her university course in this country, she could end up in prison in Cyprus for a year. Let's go back then to what happened in July. She is a young woman, far from untypical, somebody spending a gap year abroad in a tourist resort. Yes, and she goes to the police immediately after the alleged incident.

She says that she was having consensual sex with one boy and that others burst into the room and joined in and that it wasn't consensual. So it's actually from the very start a very complex and difficult case because in those circumstances, it's always going to be hard for a young woman to identify particular assailants. You would actually treat her as a young and very vulnerable witness. You would make sure she had lots of support. The police investigation was deeply flawed. So they failed to collect evidence from the hotel room. People actually, journalists went there and found the floor littered with empty bottles and condoms and things like that. So they didn't secure the crime scene. They didn't collect all the evidence. She should have had a great deal of support.

She didn't. Within 12 days, the case was closed down. Now, in this country, we often complain quite rightly that it takes far too long to investigate a rape, but you could not conduct a thorough investigation of an alleged gang rape in 12 days. Yet all the alleged suspects were back in Israel within 12 days. And they actually got something, it was very distasteful, whatever the facts of this case, that their reaction to their return to Israel was deeply unpleasant. Yes, I mean, it's been described as a hero's welcome. And, you know, there was a lot of bravado. They called the young woman a whore. They threatened to sue her.

And it was very triumphalist. It was very, very distasteful. Without being deeply cynical, why might the Cypriot authorities want to get this over and done with and close the matter as quickly as possible? Cyprus is a holiday island. The tourist trade is absolutely enormous and it does huge reputational damage to the country

if there's a protracted trial going on and evidence about young women not being protected. There is a safeguarding aspect to this that a lot of girls, teenage girls, girls in their 20s go to Cyprus on holiday. They don't expect something like this to happen. So in reputational terms, it will be very damaging for the country. But also with relations with Israel, because there's increasing tourism from Israel to Cyprus. It's not very far.

And I think that may have been a consideration as well. But none of that means that this case should not have been investigated properly. So what do we know then about the situation in which the young woman withdrew that allegation? So she was taken to the police station 12 days after the original complaint in the evening. And she was kept there on her own for over seven hours. So she didn't have any, she didn't have a friend, she didn't have a member of the family. She wasn't, she says that she asked for a lawyer and was told that she wasn't entitled to one. So she was on her own in a police station. The female police officer who'd been leading the investigation was not present on

that evening. And after seven hours, she signed a retraction. Now, we don't know what happened in that room because there is no recording of it. Cyprus does not record interviews with suspects or witnesses. In any case. In any case. So it's not special to this one. But we don't know. There's no independent record of what happened. What we do know is that the retraction is in very stilted English. And this is a young woman who is about to go to university. She's educated. She's fluent. So there are all kinds of questions about that retraction. And again, it goes to the heart of the fact that she was not treated as a vulnerable witness,

which is what she should have been. And she also is suffering from PTSD, not surprisingly. Yes, and you would expect that. One of the reasons that, you know, there are all kinds of rape myths about, in this country as well as in Cyprus about how a victim should behave, that they, you know, they should exhibit certain forms of behavior. Now, one of the things we know about a trauma like this is that it affects memory. You would not expect a young woman who had gone through what she says she's gone through to have a clear sequential memory of what happened that night. And that's why you'd have a lengthy and thoroughgoing investigation

and you would interview her in circumstances where she could relax and feel as comfortable as possible in these circumstances to get a coherent account of what happened. You certainly wouldn't put her in a room on her own without legal representation with two cops for seven hours. Are you taking heart from the fact that there has been such a furore about this case? Yes, I mean, it's taken a while for that to happen. I was aware of it right back in the summer when it first happened. And when I heard that the case had been dropped and that she was

going to face charges, It instantly rang alarm bells. It's taken a while for it to. But yes, I mean, the fact that local women, too, are up in arms about it and that there is an international outcry because it goes to the heart of the problem with rape all over the world, which is disbelief of victims. And time and time again, we hear that there are lots of fake rape allegations. And the plain fact is there aren't. There aren't. It's one of the many rape myths, along with how women are supposed to behave.

And when Keir Starmer was Director of Public Prosecutions, he actually looked at a sample of cases in this country and found a very low percentage of cases where they thought the allegation was false. And in many of those, they're very young victims. And there are other complicating factors. But this is the idea, you know, we have, even in London, you know, the number of rape allegations every year ends up in something like 2% of those cases end in a conviction. But it would seem that for some people, some men in our society, the fear

is not that this could happen potentially to a partner, to a mother, to a sister, to a friend, but that they could be the victim of a false rape allegation. And actually, they're unlikely to be. They're very unlikely to be. And that ignores the rising number of women who are going to the police and reporting a rape. I mean, you know, women really are seriously at risk of a sexual attack, but not just that, but they're at risk of not having that taken seriously. And because there are so few convictions, and sometimes there are, you know, high-profile acquittals, the general public seems to think that means that the woman was lying.

It doesn't mean it's a false allegation. It means that there wasn't enough evidence to convict, or the police think allegation. It means that there wasn't enough evidence to convict or the police think that, the CPS think there wasn't enough evidence to go to trial. But that doesn't mean that the women are lying or that there's a huge number of false allegations. And of course, we can say everything we like about the Cypriot legal system, but we need to be aware of what's happening here, don't we? Absolutely.

The disbelief of women who have suffered absolutely horrendous attacks is horrifying and it's widespread across the world. Joan Smith, thank you very much for coming on the programme this morning. Thank you, Joan. And your thoughts on that and what you've heard about that case. You can, of course, email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. We are at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, from today, heterosexual couples in England and Wales can enter into a civil partnership. Same-sex couples have had that right since 2005.

The campaigners Rebecca Steinfeld and Charles Keaton first appeared on this programme back in 2014 after they announced their intention to be civilly married in the Jewish Chronicle. Today, in fact, just around now, they'll be able to legally register their civil partnership at a register office. So here is Rebecca back in 2014, explaining why the couple wanted a civil partnership. Well, when Charlie and I decided to formalise our commitment to each other, we decided that we had to be able to express that commitment in a way that really reflects our egalitarian values. And we already see ourselves as partners. So an official civil partnership seemed perfect for us. It would give us greater legal rights and responsibilities

within a modern social institution that is free of the patriarchal history and lingering sexist trappings of marriage. We decided to announce our intention to become civil partners in the Jewish Chronicle, which we think is the first announcement of a civil partnership that that newspaper has ever printed. So there were some funny conversations between me and the person on the social and personal desk about this. And now we're hoping that we can make good on our announcement. But we can only do this if the UK government opens up civil partnerships to opposite sex couples. Rebecca, that was nearly six years ago. What's it like listening to yourself at the start of the campaign? Gosh, I feel really emotional listening to that. You were holding hands. It was so sweet. I know. And it feels really lovely to sort of be

coming full circle and to be coming back here to talk to you. Yeah, it's wonderful to be at this point now where we have gotten to the end of a legal battle and a political campaign and we have managed to successfully open up civil partnerships to everybody. So literally now any couple in the UK can form a civil partnership. It's a wonderful thing for us and it's a wonderful thing for so many other people. Charles, the 31st is the first day that heterosexual civil partnerships can be recognised. How worried were you that actually it might never happen? Well, we realised once we'd gone to court all that time ago, as you say, that we were past the point of no return. When we realised that it wasn't just for us, that we were making this challenge, legal challenge.

Yes, of course, there were moments of setbacks, doubts. We lost in court twice before the emphatic ruling in Lady Hale's Supreme Court when we won unanimously. And then we had the change of heart by the Conservative government. So I think there was moments of doubt, but ultimately we were really propelled forward by the broad-based, cross-party, cross-section public support and the fact that there were so many people that wanted to be able to do what we wanted, which is to be able to form a civil partnership,

many of whom for different reasons for their own reasons. But Rebecca, what toll has keeping going had on you? Because you've got children as well. We do, and we had two children during the five years of fighting the government in court and campaigning and it has taken its toll i don't want this to be a pity party though because at the end of the day we chose to do this and in the course of doing it i think we've had a really wonderful journey we've met people that we wouldn't have otherwise met and we've acquired skills that we wouldn't otherwise have and I feel that you know we're now able to to use those skills to campaign in our various respective jobs

in other ways but yeah it has taken a toll I had a sort of career shift midway through partly as a result of having children and sort of the realization that it was just unsustainable for me to continue down an academic career track whilst campaigning for civil partnerships at the same time. And I think also it took its toll on Charlie too. It did, and I suffer from a degree of kind of burnout earlier this year where I just felt, you know, having succeeded legally and then politically, and we'd also moved home several times, and seeing our children grow up, Eden is now four and Ariel two,

everything was really in place. So in that sense, I had everything to be thankful for and grateful for. And yet, I was feeling this sense of kind of mental and physical exhaustion, took a little bit of time off work, my employers were understanding about it. So it's been tough. And I think, you know, even enacting social change, which should have been quite straightforward in this case, can take its toll. But I think we kept going because we knew that it was important for each other. It was the right way that we wanted to express our relationship as a partnership of equals. And there were so many people that also were alongside us in this effort.

But when you say that other people who were supporting you and were coming behind you wanted civil partnerships for a range of reasons, what were those range of reasons? I mean, I think there are all sorts of reasons why people feel that marriage might not be right for them, either that they have had a previous poor experience of their own marriage or their parents' marriage, or like us, they have deep reservations about some of the history, problematic history, patriarchal baggage of marriage. They don't want to have to succumb to the really immense pressure to formalise their marriage in the form of a wedding with a lot of fanfare and expectation and wearing white dresses and being given away and enormous eye-watering costs. They just don't want that. And the beauty of civil partnerships

is that they give you the legal status and recognition of marriage and all of the financial protections that come with that. But without any of this expectation, without any of this fanfare, they really are a blank slate. There's no social script. People can do whatever they want. If they want to do things at scale and have a huge party, of course, do that. People should do whatever feels right for them. But for Charlie and me, what we want is something very simple, very stripped back. We're just planning on going to the register office at Chelsea Town Hall to have a very simple registration at the statutory price of £46 in front of our two children, Eden and Ariel, and two of our close friends. That's what

we're going to do. We know lots of other people who want to do something similar. And I think that's part of the attraction, that really you can do what you want. We know that there are now 3.3 million cohabiting couples, the fastest growing family type in this country. Why have you both worried that cohabitation really makes you vulnerable? Well, there's no such thing as common law marriage in the UK. Some people are under the erroneous assumption that there is, but in fact there is not. And cohabitees, therefore, are actually quite legally and financially vulnerable. We became keenly aware of that at the point at which we had our children. And in that sense, I suppose our own personal reason for wanting to form a civil partnership shifted slightly from the pure feminist principles through to a more pragmatic concern about our

vulnerability, should the worst happen to one of us or if we should separate and I think that civil partnerships go part of the way to addressing the vulnerability of cohabities because for those like us who don't want to marry and are cohabiting as a result they can now form a civil partnership but it doesn't address the situation for everybody because at the end of the day it's an opt-in situation for those who are unaware that they're vulnerable or where they're in a relationship with someone who is refusing to formalise the relationship for some reason, perhaps because they're protecting their assets. They remain vulnerable. And I think what's really important about the conversation about civil partnerships from this point onwards

is that it doesn't stop here, that we keep talking about the need that law and social policy keep up with the reality of family life in modern Britain today, and that we keep talking about cohabitation, law reform, I think that's really urgent. And I'd also say that I hope that in addition to that, that this conversation will broaden out actually into a much wider, more profound conversation about the kinds of relationships, caring relationships, personal relationships that we give legal status to and financial protection to and those we don't. I think we need to be talking about things like adult caring relationships, people who are co-parenting, people who are in alternative sexual relationships, siblings who are taking care of each other. All of these relationships

need to be considered. How much opposition have you faced from people who might have accused you of undermining the value of marriage? Well, what was remarkable is it was the Conservative Party that really saw and embraced the logic of actually extending civil partnerships as a measure that would be good for families and children. And I think they did that because they could see that there was issues that could be addressed through extending civil partnerships. And I think that really disarmed critics that felt that it was undermining marriage because actually there's a big pool of people that are electing not to become married. So I think that the institutions of marriage and civil partnerships can coexist.

But having said that, civil partnerships do offer refreshing, modern alternative to marriage. They break this kind of monopoly of marriage or nothing and create space for the kinds of relationship configurations and protections for those relationships that Rebecca's referring to. And I think that is a good thing because it does actually create an opportunity to recognise different realities of different types of relationships rather than just have this binary choice of marriage or nothing.

So I think we've helped break that monopoly. I think I'd just like to add to that. I think one of the really interesting things for us, particularly as the debate in Parliament about opening civil partnerships drew to a close, was the way in which it drew together literally ultra-conservative backbench Tory MPs on the one hand and then radical feminists on the other hand. And I think that's because civil partnerships can be what you want them to be.

For people who are in favour of marriage, they do something very similar in that they formalise a love dyad, a long-term commitment between two people. And so people who are concerned about family stability and are worried about the instability that comes from people not marrying, see civil partnerships as a great way to encourage that formalisation of commitment. On the other hand, by being a non-patriarchal alternative to marriage, opening up a much wider conversation about relationships by challenging in a very good way, in my view, the unrivaled position of marriage up until this point, they do something quite radical. So off to the register office for the cheapest possible way

of creating a union. But how excited are you about it? Really excited, super excited. I'm excited about the day itself. We wanted to do it in the way that we originally intended very simple and stripped back as i said and it was important to us to show to people how accessible it is because 46 pounds though some money is affordable it's not we're not talking about a 20 000 pound wedding or anything like that and really excited to wake up on the 1st of january 2020 to a new decade where we are civil partners in law as well as in life. Yeah absolutely and also just stripping back all the campaigning effort and the political change that has happened, stripping back the public and media

interests for ourselves and our families to be able to go to the register office with two of our closest friends and our small children and say what it means to us in that space, just alone together with those people means a lot. And then we'll be able to relax after that, have a lunch with our families, and then we're throwing a small New Year's Eve party later that day. So that will be it. Then we can continue to build on the unit that we've created together.

And of course it has its ups and downs, just like any relationship. I think it would be dishonest for any couple that have got small children and the pressures of being working parents who both work in charities, both working hard, not to be affected by the pressures. But actually, I think what we've shown so far, at least, we've navigated that and we found a way to actually help bring into birth a new institution, which hopefully will be good for us and many others in the future. I hope that being civil partners in law will increase the leverage that we have in relation to one another, in relation to the relationship itself, to be civil and to be equal. And I think that's a really powerful thing from a feminist point of view. I think whenever we see sort of creeping inequality in our relationship, whether it's in relation to the division of household labour or looking after the children,

to be able to remind each other that we've made a commitment in law as well as in life and love to be civil partners. I think that's really important. And it feels really important to be able to mark this moment. It is a special day for us, albeit a different one to marriage. And it's really important to be able to force ourselves to ask those questions about how we want to be as partners and how we want to bring up our children. That is civil partners Rebecca Steinfeld and Charles Keaton. Congratulations to them and indeed to Deborah and Dave. We've had an email from Deborah who says, my partner Dave and I will be the first heterosexual couple in Cornwall

to gain a civil partnership. Our ceremony is at 11.30am. We've been very active in the campaign to allow civil partnerships for everybody. Dave and I have known each other for over 35 years, have been living happily as a couple for 31 years. But the patriarchal and religious aspects of a traditional marriage didn't suit our beliefs. And we are delighted to be able to engage in a legal ceremony today, which embodies equality and also gives us the same rights as our married friends. So our congratulations to Deborah and Dave and to anybody else planning a civil partnership, whoever you are, wherever you are today. Now, tomorrow, of course, is New

Year's Day. And at the start of a new decade, Woman's Hour is going to be looking at three key issues likely to shape women's lives in the next decade. The modern workplace, health and the crisis in social care. So Jenny with you with New Year's Day's Woman's Hour, two minutes past 10 tomorrow morning. On Friday of this week, the programme is going to be talking about why children tell porkies. Why do they lie if you have young children do they tell lies um what about how old are they do you catch them out do you tell them you've cottoned on to what they're up to or is it just a funny anecdote you could share with us um tell us what's been going on in your household email the program or contact us through twitter or Instagram. So Children Telling Lies on the programme on Friday. And if you are really keen to mark 2020 by doing something new,

possibly writing that book you've always planned to write and you know you can if you just have the opportunity, well, there's a great film for you now on the Women's Hour website with some brilliant advice from top authors. I'm talking about people like Elizabeth Strout and Jojo Moyes, so people who really know their stuff. So How to Write a Book, How to Get Down to It, is a film available on the Woman's Hour website right now.

Now, to the subject, the notion really of second mothers. Is there somebody in your life who fulfils that role? Well, our reporter Sue Elliot Nicholls has had a lot of mothers. Some were hers and some she has found for herself. Here she is to explain. Second mums, those other mothers we pick up through life, not to replace our real life mothers, but a little extra maternal backup. I spoke to other second mothers and second daughters just to make sure it wasn't just me. Because like Daisy, I'm a collector. There's one main mum.

She was my actual mum, my biological mother, her best friend as I was growing up. And I saw her as very much an extra mum figure when I was little. Did you love her? I did. I did. I really did, yep. And she would always refer to me as her second daughter I was very open and sort of confessional with my second mum and just a horrible, horrible teenager to my actual mum

I would happily slam doors and march around I would never dream of doing that with Pam because I could lose her whereas my mum would always have to be there but Pam didn't, so I never tested it I never pushed that relationship and I was never horrid and she didn't judge if I if I sort of went to her with a problem with any with an issue she would never have that prejudice beforehand as to how to talk to me so it was kind of like a blank slate having a parent with a blank slate who just liked you

sadly she died when I was at university. There was a long time where I felt a bit adrift that I didn't have that link, that connection and that mum figure in my life that I'd sort of substituted in for my actual mum. I'm sure you filled a void for her as well. Yeah. Maybe the fun element, the laughs. We did always laugh. We had our own little language. So clearly she was getting something from the relationship with this awkward teenager that she'd developed. I just hope that she knew how important she was.

I'm sure she did. What do you think it is that makes some people look for alternative families and other people that have really got themselves together? Possibly because the family that they were born into, for whatever reason, didn't deliver. Because my family weren't particularly nice. And so I made another family for myself. And we do that, don't we?

Not for you. No, I've been lucky. I've been lucky. I've had a brilliant family but they're not here they're not here no they're not close by here no they live in america they live in america yeah so yes like people here my close friends they are like my family here wendy and janie are two main players in my vast collection of spare mothers lisa introduced me to one of her second mums, June, shortly before she died

earlier this year. It's like having a family here, like very good family. I'm pleased when she comes, I'm always pleased to hear from her or see her. I also feel comfortable that she's not just doing good but that maybe she's pleased to see me. So it's a mutual feeling. It's to do with the fact that my family weren't particularly creative or artistic. You know, my mum and dad were sort of suburban, traditional Jewish family. And for me to go and try and do something arty, like be an actress, or for my brother to be a musician, we were sort of a bit audited to them. Whereas June makes me feel it's quite all right to want to do those things because June's led a life like that. Daisy again. It was tricky for my

mum to see that we'd developed a friendship. Well it would be. Yeah I think she she felt a bit betrayed by her friend becoming my friend. Now you have a daughter. I do. How would you feel if she had a second mum? I was thinking about this on the way here and I think that would be okay and I was thinking perhaps of the qualities that maybe I like that she would look for elsewhere and I just want to make sure with her that it's not humour because I'm obviously I'm hilarious. That's your? That's my thing yeah yeah so maybe her university lecturers will become her second mums, and that's OK. If she befriends a comedian, I'm probably going to have to do some kind of intervention.

So basically it's OK if she does get a second mum as long as you get to choose them. Yeah, I will vet them very, very carefully. You were the first person, after I had my first baby, you were the first person to come and see him. You're usually, both of you, the first people I ring if anything goes wrong. When I went away, I left my teenage child with you. The first time we ever went out, I left my baby with you.

I remember that, yeah. And as much as I collect mothers, do you think that you collect the waifs and strays? Well, I think we do, or I do at least. Yes. But I'm a bit annoyed now. What do you mean you collect mothers? Who else is your mother apart from Janie and I?

And your real ones, of course. Like many people, I've tended to veer towards people who are like me. But with Lisa, she does things that surprise me that I'd never, perhaps I would never accept with other people. But with Lisa, I just take her as she comes. When we first met, there was an acceptance of each other. Would you say you love her? Yes.

So it's more... I wouldn't actually say it, but I do. It's very sweet. What people can't see is that you were holding hands then. So it's more... I wouldn't actually say it, but I do. It's very sweet. What people can't see is that you were holding hands then. When I was a teenager and when I was at school, from high school upwards, if I was good at a subject, I would adore the teacher.

And it made me want to do better because I adored these women that taught me and I just wanted to be the very best. And with me, it's kind of the fact that they sort of approve of me and they're not super critical all the time yeah it really is about approval it's interesting isn't it because there's some people that don't find other women to kind of approve of them no maybe they have very close relationships with their mothers they don't need it there's no void to fail no no they're completely they're topped up i hate them yeah i hate them too i think it's a

very common thing and people i've chatted to a few people this week and they have said oh yeah no i have i have various people who are mums and i collect them as well i think this is a bigger phenomenon than just i always thought it was just me and then imagine my joy when on my quest to find out more about second mums tea told me I was hers what greater compliment can there be ever since I read tales of the city and obviously fell in love with Anna Madrigal I always wanted to be someone's other mother I think you can both offer each other different advice I think that's definitely true because when I've had issues with my teenagers, I quite often come to you because it wasn't that long ago that you were a teenager.

You would come to me, and something that would worry you, I'd maybe put your mind at ease and say, really, that's not a big worry. So you would say that if you take umbrage with something one of your parents say, you'll run it by me and check you're not being ridiculous. 100%. Which you usually are. Which I usually do. And then I'll kind of say to myself,

yeah, I can see that from another person's perspective now, or a different age. You'd ask your friends for advice, but certain things you wouldn't. You'd ask the second mum slash friend. So you ask me more things than your friends then too? Yeah, I think I probably do, yeah. Does your mum have any second children? I think she might have lots of second children because she works at a school.

My mum's just nice to everyone though. She's so sweet. See, now that is slightly kind of blowing my theory out of the water as well because sometimes I think when people look for second mum figures, it's because they're looking for something that's missing from their own mum. But you don't feel that. No, definitely not. Lisa, another mum collector, took the brave decision to introduce her American second mum to her actual parents.

They had met my mum and dad, and my dad absolutely adored them and they adored him and my mum was always a little bit somethingy like a bit suspicious or jealous or something well now this leads me on to my next question you have a 13 year old daughter how would you feel if she started hanging out with another mum yeah i would feel jealous i mean it already happens with my sister she she spends quite a lot of time with her and then she comes back from there saying everything's so much nicer there and she's in a real temper tantrum with me and she would much rather spend time with them.

And I get jealous. The way we create alternative families to help us through is to me a great example of love, looking after ourselves and other people around us. I think it's because you care. You actually care whether that person succeeds in life. Also, I kind of think it's really positive. I sort of think that if you were a therapist, you'd say that's marvellous.

It's support. You know, just supporting each other. So you have to make a family wherever you are. So you've got something somewhere. Life's hard enough. Sue Elliott Nichollols compiled that report and talked to Wendy and Janie, June and Lisa and Daisy and T. Now, Lucy Edwards is here. Lucy, good morning to you.

Morning. A woman who's made broadcasting history. Just explain how you did it. Oh, well, I was the first blind presenter on Radio 1 this gone weekend so yeah it was crazy. You did the morning show Saturday and Sunday. I did 28th and 29th of December. I was on 10am till 1pm and it was just absolutely fantastic. Obviously a lot on my shoulders, history making right there but I loved every second of it. Okay, we're going to play a little bit of you in a second or two. But how did all this come about?

So I've been doing radio for a couple of years now. I first started on the Xtend scheme. What does that mean? For disabled journalists, yeah, in the BBC. It was like, if you like a scheme just to get you into news and I worked on BBC Out which is a podcast and then I was a freelance uh for Radio 4 in touch uh with the lovely Peter White uh for a time and yeah I just put my show reel in saw the ad if you like on uh twitter for radio one um wanting talent for christmas over christmas and the rest is history okay daft question but i've got to pick you up on this you saw it on twitter but you're blind so how does that sorry it's kind of it's uh i always say see and and use these words i i don't mind actually using uh those words in speech. But yeah, so on my Apple iPhone, actually, there's voiceover accessibility.

And yeah, I scroll through Twitter just like anyone else. Got you. Now, Peter, I knew his name would crop up. Like all broadcasters, like myself, Peter has an ego. But we have to say the man is a legend. He's an absolute broadcasting legend, and loved I know by millions of people who listen regularly to Radio 4 but can I just I don't think this will offend him he is of a certain vintage you are at the other end how old are you Lucy? I'm 24. Right okay so and I was really surprised because I saw you tweeting that you were going to be Radio 1's first blind

presenter and I thought what has that really not happened? Yeah it's crazy I mean I'm so so lucky and happy to take on that history making right there but yeah I can't believe that I guess it happened at the latter part of the decade it's crazy but I think there is definitely a move towards disabled presenters. I know that there has been Ofcom stating that they want a lot more presenters in 2020 to be forefront. Just to represent the population. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's needed, Jane, definitely. And I'm just happy to do it.

All right. I want to know what was going through your head we'll hear your first words on Radio 1 in a moment or two but just in I've sort of been there myself a bit and everybody has had that feeling where they're just about to make a speech or do something in public that they're dreading there you were sitting in that studio at Radio 1 and what was going through your head going through my head was obviously what I've got to do um and what I've got to say um I had butterflies in my belly um it was I did feel a lot was on my shoulders sort of history making at that point but it was exciting it was crazy it was insane all of these words um and I

think um yeah I was a bit scared to click the button. But you did it anyway. Let's listen. Here you are on Radio 1. Good morning and welcome to BBC Radio 1 Anthems. It is Lucy Edwards and of course gorgeous guide dog Olga at 10am. We've got three hours of back-to-back 2008 tracks for you this morning. We are very, very happy to be here. 8 to 1, to 9.

Fantastic, you didn't miss a beat. Were you concerned that you'd stumble or that something would go wrong yeah i think so i mean hearing that back it got me the um the donut there the donut you'll have to explain yeah sort of you have to make sure you um get inside the the track bed if you like there you've got to be in the hole yeah you've got to be you've got to be making sure that you're on to on to time but yeah no uh i i i sort of the night before i i was definitely in bed like what am i going to say listening to other um presenters sort of seeing how they started things i think naturally you're inquisitive about these different uh uh people how they do things and uh yeah clicking the button i definitely took a deep breath.

And you mentioned Olga, the guide dog, your guide dog. Have to, have to mention her. I should say she is very much with us. She is. Being incredible, guide dogs are just the most fantastic creatures. I am in awe of what Olga can do for you and what other guide dogs do for the people they work with and for. But let's

talk about the business of broadcasting I'm looking around the studio now and I don't have to do any of the technical stuff um thank goodness but I a lot of my cues are are things I look at visual cues there are lights there are all sorts of things clocks I'm surrounded by about 15 clocks here um how do you do it in simple terms yeah Yeah, so in simple terms, at the moment, because there has never been a blind DJ on Radio 1 before, we went with the good old Blu-Tack. It was fantastic. And a lot of producer and Lucy interaction.

Amy was absolutely fabulous. But there are probably still a long way to go in making um the setup more audible more tactile a braille mixing desk that you use oh that would be absolutely fantastic no reason why not no reason why not and we could label the buttons a lot more i mean amy uh did a little trick where she sort of blocked off some buttons just by putting complete blue tack over all of it because obviously when you're talking and doing your thing on radio um you're you are thinking about the sliders but you're predominantly making sure that you are interesting to the

listener uh doing your thing thinking about what you're saying um and then as you get used to it more and you get used to the setup more um it sort of becomes muscle memory almost I don't know if you find that um Jane but with what you click um I think uh also uh making the setup maybe more tactile with braille would would be an option um I think in the future I would love for 2020 to maybe talk talk with a technician um and make that so because obviously the countdown clock uh 20 seconds I had to fill most of my links I wasn't hearing anything in my headphones I was sort of counting as I was talking um and I was sliding the faders up and hearing the bed and doing all of that at once and and hearing my laptop with um all of the audience interaction on it.

I'll tell you what, stuff like hearing beds is music to me. I've got my anorak firmly on here. I'm absolutely loving this. Whether the audience is getting any of it, I'm not getting all of it, I'm not sure. What we need to make clear is actually the fact that you're blind is both relevant and utterly irrelevant because it's about making a connection to the listener and you are clearly able to do that.

We should say the condition you have is incontinentia pigmenti. That's correct. IP. And it doesn't, I mean, it's an unusual condition, isn't it? Your mum has it? Yeah, so it runs down the female line of my genetics. My mum doesn't actually have any noticeable noticeable signs of the condition um she just has the gene which is on the x chromosome and it was passed down to me it's

recessive so um if you look on uh the the internet it says incontinence pigmenti affects skin and pigments and teeth and oh it may affect your eyes So I am very unlucky in the fact that this gene mutated and affected my eyesight so severely. I think there's three or four other people in the whole of the UK who are women who have a little bit of sight loss. I'm not too sure because all of the doctors have told me all of my entire life that they don't really know what's going to happen. I have floaters, I have detached retinas.

It all happened at age 11 and age 17 for me. Yeah. That is the voice of Lucy Edwards, who was a star on Radio 1 over the weekend as That Network's first ever blind presenter and our best wishes to her. And if you'd like to know more about her, see her in fact, you can do so on YouTube. She puts up quite a lot of really interesting YouTube videos. There's one about how she puts on her makeup that I know has had loads and loads of views and people are really interested in what she's got to say. So our very best wishes to Lucy Edwards. Now, to your thoughts on the rest of the programme today,

a lot of people expressing support and sympathy for Joan Smith and for her. Well, she's a very doughty campaigner for women's rights, has been for some time now. Here is a really interesting email from a listener who says, I'm now 70 and I was a policewoman, as we were then known, in the late 1960s. I admit that I dealt with many so-called alleged rapes back in those days, and my job was often to persuade girls and women not to pursue their allegations. In good faith, I believed it was in their best interest not to take the case to court and risk brutal questioning. To my shame, I don't recall a single prosecution resulting from alleged rape cases I dealt with, and I believe it was my police training as well as firmly held beliefs

that led to women declining to take things further. I believed most women's stories though. Young and vulnerable women have been let down by the so-called freedoms of today and in Cyprus by the police in particular and society as a whole. That is, isn't that interesting? The fact that there's somebody who was in the police back in the day,

and that was going on. Paul emailed to say, I would like to point out that a lot of us here in Israel were disgusted at the family's welcome home to Israel. We showed our concern by writing to the local press. Whatever the truth is, that sort of behaviour is not a reason to celebrate. Now to your thoughts on civil partnerships. This has been too long coming, but thank goodness it's here now.

Equal partnerships for all, says one tweeter. Nikki emailed, please ask the interviewees why. Why is civil partnership better for them than marriage? How is it different? Marriages don't have to be big weddings. From Jay, surely anyone can have marriage. It can be as stripped down as you like. In fact, what Rebecca described sounded exactly like a register office wedding. Am I missing something?

And this tweet from Mary, same-sex couples have had that right since 2014. That was something I said in the introduction to that conversation with Rebecca and Charles. This tweet from Mary, same-sex couples have had that right since 2014. That was something I said in the introduction to that conversation with Rebecca and Charles. Mary takes issue with that use of the term right. The right to civil partnership, when they didn't have the right to marry, you need to be careful around the language you use concerning heterosexual civil partnership. I take your point, Mary. I quite understand what you mean there. Another listener says, I've lived with my partner for over 20 years and don't want any interference in the current cohabitation law. I've chosen to live this way for good reasons and it suits me

really well. I'm insulted that they feel they must come to my rescue. Now that there is marriage and civil partnerships for all, I should also be allowed to cohabit without the law being involved if things go wrong. I'm pleased they have the right to live how they want, but leave the current law of cohabitation alone. Otherwise, they might end up forcing someone like me to break my happy long-term partnership. I get what that listener means, although, of course, it was explained in that interview that there is no such thing as common law husband or wife. You don't have legal protections. And of course, you may never require them. But the truth is, you don't know, I guess. Life can throw all sorts of stuff at you. Now, a couple of lovely emails on the subject of

second mothers on the back of that feature that Sue Elliott Nichols did for us. This listener says, Susan, the mum of one of my school friends, is my second mum. When I got divorced, my own mum just didn't want to know. In fact, she took me apart. But Susan took me in when I needed somewhere to stay. She literally saved my life, because I couldn't contend with the rejection from my own family. My grandmother had more wisdom and knew that more goes on behind closed doors than can usually be guessed. She was a rock for me too, as it turned out. However, she was in Stoke and I lived in Gloucester. Mum had told me that she would be disgusted with me, but she wasn't. Happy to say

I've built bridges with my own mum. And when the truth came out, my parents went and thanked Susan for looking after me in those tough times. But Sue, I love you to bits and I'll never forget what you did for me. So well done to that, Susan, who helped out a listener called Louise. And thanks to her as well for emailing the programme. And another listener says I've been lucky enough to have two second mothers too. My own mother died when I was 12 and her younger sister my aunt took on that role to a great degree despite having her own very young family at the time. Later I went travelling on a gap year and I worked for a young couple in New South Wales. He played polo and I was hired

to look after the ponies as his wife was expecting a baby and couldn't do it herself. At the end of the season when the baby was due I was sent to stay with her mother in Sydney. Well we hadn't met so I waited in her neighbour's flat until she got back from work. She asked me if I could open a bottle of champagne, which I could, she sounds amazing, and asked if she had any eggs in so I could make an omelette for us both. We bonded immediately over these eggs and omelettes and the champers and became firm friends. Many years later, I got married in her garden in Sydney and she was with me in hospital when both my daughters were born and they still call her grandma. My husband and I now live back

in the UK, but she's been over to stay with us on many occasions. She is now 92 and I speak to her every week on FaceTime and visit her at least annually. I think second mothers are fantastic and I feel so lucky to have had two. Isn't that fantastic? Louisa, thank you very much for sharing that experience. And your own second mother does sound absolutely incredible. I love the idea of bonding over an omelette and champers. That's my kind of bonding. Jenny will be here with Woman's Hour for New Year's Day.

And that's all about the challenges that are likely to dominate the female experience, if you can call it that, in the next decade. We're talking about the workplace and we're talking about women's health and indeed about the future of social care. That's on the programme tomorrow. Whatever you're doing this evening, I hope it's a reasonably good one. And for me, a very, very happy new year. I'm so sorry. I know you listen to a podcast, but I've sort of poked my head in to plug mine. It's called James Veitch's Contractual Obligation. And it's sort of a think piece

sprinkled throughout with high-octane bursts of investigative journalism. I mean, it's not really, but you know, they only gave me 20 seconds, so what can you do? Subscribe to James Veitch's Contractual Obligation on BBC Sounds. Terms and conditions apply. All right, back to whatever you were listening to.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered there was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies I started like warning everybody every doula that I know

it was fake no pregnancy and the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth how long has she been doing this what does she have to gain from this from CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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