Woman's Hour - 'Molly vs the Machines' doc, Female Afghan Ambassador, Maternity care, Cleopatra re-imagined

Episode Date: February 26, 2026

An interim report from Baroness Amos, who is leading a government-commissioned review into NHS maternity care in England, says maternity services are failing "too many" families, with problems "at every stage" of the maternity journey. Six factors were highlighted including racism, staffing and accountability issues. To give their reactions, Anita Rani is joined by the film-maker and activist Pippa Bennett-Warner and Theo Clarke, parent and campaigner and formerly a Member of Parliament, who suffered from birth trauma and gave evidence to Baroness Amos' investigation this week. Molly vs the Machines is a new feature-length documentary that tells the story of Ian Russell and his fight for online safety, after his daughter Molly took her own life in 2017 following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. The film recreates the inquest where Ian was told the online images were safe and follows twin narratives – the story of what happened to Molly in the lead-up to her tragic death, and the broader economic logic behind AI and giant tech companies as they continue to shape and influence lives. Molly’s friends Charlotte Campbell and Sophie Conlan tell Anita why it was important for them to take part in the film.Last week the Taliban published a new penal code and women's rights groups have said that women and girls in particular are set to suffer at the hands of the courts in Afghanistan. Anita is joined by Mahjooba Nowrouzi, a senior journalist for the BBC’s Afghan Service and Manizha Bakhtari, who was the Afghan Ambassador to Austria until the Taliban took control in 2021. She continues to be an Ambassador, but without a country, representing the Afghan people against the Taliban's order. She remains accredited in Vienna, and works with a renewed focus on advocating for the rights of women and girls in Afghanistan. She's the subject of a new documentary The Last Ambassador. Fantasy fiction author Saara El‑Arifi’s new novel Cleopatra is a bold re-imagining of one of history’s most iconic women, Cleopatra VII, the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty that ruled Egypt from 51 BC - 30 BC, a woman celebrated for her beauty and her love affairs with the Roman warlords Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. El-Arifi's Cleopatra is not confined by the limits set by men or society. She reclaims Cleopatra’s story through the perspective of a Black woman and gives voice to the queen behind the myth.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Women's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the program. We'll be turning our attention to Afghanistan, where the Taliban have introduced a new penal code.

I'll be finding out how this will impact the lives of women and girls. And I'll be joined by Manizha Bhaktari, who was the Afghan ambassador to Austria when the Taliban regained power in 2021. And her role changed dramatically. 14-year-old Molly Russell took her own life in 2017, following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. Her father, Ian Russell, has campaigned tirelessly since for online safety regulations.

Well, there's a powerful new Channel 4 documentary called Molly versus the Machines. It tells Molly's story, but also the rise of technology and the world in which Molly was growing up in. Her friends, now in their early 20s, feature in the film, and two will be here to talk to me. And tomorrow we'll be talking to Dr. Danielle Einstein, whose research was very influential in shaping Australia's social media band for under 16. So this morning, I'd really like to hear your experiences of social media and the children in your lives. How have you navigated it? What's worked? What hasn't?

Your concerns, your stories and your questions, particularly if you'd like me to put them to Dr. Einstein. tomorrow. Get in touch in the usual way. You can text the program. It's 84844. You can WhatsApp the program, 0300-100-444. You can also email us by going to our website. Also on the program today, Cleopatra through the lens of historical fantasy fiction. Who was Cleopatra? I'll be speaking to author, Sarah L. Sharifie. That text number once again, your thoughts and opinions on anything and you hear on the program, always welcome 84844. But first, an interim report from Baroness Amos, who is leading a government commissioned review into NHS maternity care in England,

says maternity services are failing too many families with problems at every stage of the maternity journey. Six factors were highlighted, including racism, staffing and accountability issues. Here is Baroness Amos talking on the Today program this morning. This is the first national review wanting to build on systems, good practice in the system. It is deep and broad in terms of the issues that we are looking at. And shocking as some of the findings have been in relation to things like racism, discrimination, the kind of capacity constraints that exists within trusts, the buildings that families are having to deliver their babies in

and that staff are having to work in, the poor response to investigations. Side by side, we are also seeing good practice that we can build on. As always, your reactions to this. Welcome the text number 84844. Well, to discuss their response to her findings, I'm joined by filmmaker and activist Pippa Bennett Warner and Theo Clark, parent and campaigner,

formerly a member of parliament, who suffered from birth trauma and has given evidence to Baroness Amos's investigation this week. Pippa and Theo, welcome to the programme. I'm going to start by basically getting your response to the report. Let's start with you, Pippa. Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me. I'm not surprised by the findings.

I have to say I am delighted that we have that the ink is dry and we have everything written down because I feel like we finally got something tangible to work with and I feel like now there's nowhere to hide. You know, change needs to be made, change needs to happen, it needs to happen now before more women are put through, you know, trauma

in an already very vulnerable moment of their life. So I'm, I wasn't surprised reading Baroness Amos's report but there's a part of me that's really hopeful that now we can actually make some impactful change. Theo? Well, to be honest, I'm incredibly disappointed by today's interim findings. Firstly, Baroness Amos is not correct. This was not the first national investigation.

I chaired an investigation two years ago into maternity services, which was cross-party. And I'm afraid we found incredibly similar findings in our own report, but we titled our report, Listen to Mums, ending the Postcode Lottery in Pernatal Care because we didn't. feel like parents were being listened to. And quite frankly, I find it shocking reading the stories today in the report, examples of parents, for example, where their babies are being born alive,

an NHS trust recording them as having died, so that they're trying to avoid coroners, having to do an inquest. And I think it's another shocking example of where NHS care is not being joined up across maternity care. And we really need the government to take urgent action to address this. This is now just the preliminary findings of another investigation where we have had so many findings from previous investigations that have not been implemented. And that's why I called a few weeks ago and launched a petition asking for a maternity commissioner because we have 748 outstanding policy recommendations from previous reports into maternity, which have not actually been implemented by the government.

And I think having a dedicated, accountable, independent commissioner would go a long way to address that. And I very much hope that Baroness Amos announces the commissioner as part. of the final report in April, and I have made that point to her in person when we met this week. Yeah, Theo, I know you were once a member of Parliament and you said yourself, you know, you sat across an investigation that happened two years ago. I'm thinking about people listening and particularly mothers who are wondering why does nothing ever change? Why another report? Why another damning report? Well, I think that is the key question, Anita.

I mean, in my view, this investigation was just the government kicking the can down the road. Westreting the Health Secretary announced last year, there'd be a maternity task force. What's happened with that? It's now been months. Nothing has actually been announced. Who's sitting on it? What are they going to be doing? And my concern is that whilst Bairns Amos is a very experienced politician and diplomat,

she doesn't have the background in maternity. She's been given a very short timeframe to review the huge number of failures in UK hospitals. And to be honest, as an affected parent who's given evidence myself to this inquiry, I just don't have faith that the government is going to do anything. thing about this. And I really think we've had too many government reshuffles. I myself have been through eight health secretaries making the case for improving maternity care. And in that time, maternity safety staffing budget has been cut from 95 million to two. These are shocking statistics that the government is not prioritising maternity care. So my call today is please can Baroness

Amos include the appointment of the maternity commissioner in her final report? Because what she said today is not surprising to those of us that have had significant failures in our maternity care. Enough is enough. And we want the government to take urgent action and appointing the commissioner, I think, would address a number of the failures in NHS trust care today. Well, you mentioned something earlier, which was listened to mothers. So Pippa, you speak to women and about their experiences in your filmmaking. You're an activist yourself.

One of the things that came up and it comes up a lot. We talk about it on this program is structural racism and persistent inequalities, leading to notably higher risk of adverse outcomes for women from black and Asian backgrounds and women from more deprived areas. Tell me about some of the stories that you've heard and your own reasons for being an activist. Yeah, so five years ago, Pippa Vosper and I, who is the creator and lead producer on the short film 22 plus one, which I directed and am in. She was researching for her book, and she interviewed 400,000.

women of all races. And she learned that the disparities between the white female pregnancy journey and the black female pregnancy journey was so far apart that to sit on that information did not feel comfortable. So we set on a journey to make a film about black maternal trauma and also systemic racism that sits within the NHS. And we went on a journey with it. And 22 plus one is now available to watch on YouTube. And it has been a real journey. I mean, I was, I didn't know. People really educated me on some of the things that women that look like me have to go through every day when they're going into, as I said earlier, already a very vulnerable state. But as Theo said, you know, enough is enough. It has to stop now. I'm sort of, we're all kind of pulling our

hair around because it's like what's it going to take to move the needle effectively? What is it going to take? And now, now is time. And I think your idea, Theo of the other commissioners, is a brilliant one. Would you mind sharing your own story? My story. Well, I've been, lots of families have had traumatic pregnancy experiences. I haven't personally. Yeah.

I feel like the black community is so, you know, so if one suffers, I feel like all of us do. Absolutely. And what about some of the women that you've met? What have they said? How have they expressed? Like, give us some insight. Yeah, I mean, being denied pain relief.

You know, being ignored, their babies not surviving, being, you know, midwives being overtly racist to their face. And it's sort of like, my thing comes back to, you know, as a white woman, you get to walk into a hospital and feel valued. And as a black and brown woman, you walk into hospital and you don't know. You don't know how it's going to play out. I mean, you know, and that for me is unacceptable. Theo, I think it's important. I know you've spoken on our program and you've been very vocal about your own experience, but please could you remind us about the trauma that you went through?

Absolutely. Well, I actually had my baby when I was an MP in the last parliament and I ended up having my daughter late, being induced for 40 hours, which are a really horrific experience in the hospital, and going on to have a vagina delivery where I suffered a postpartum hemorrhage, post the birth, and ended up in emergency theatre, awake on the operating table without a general anaest. for over two hours. It was an absolutely terrifying experience. I generally thought I was going to die. My husband thought he was going to be going home as a single dad.

I didn't meet my daughter for six hours after giving birth. It was an incredibly traumatic experience and compounded when I came out and was in the room afterwards of my daughter. And I was paralysed from the waist down from the upper dural and I couldn't actually pick up my daughter. And she was screaming in the cot next to me. And I remember pressing the button for some help. And this NHS professional just came in and said,

my baby, not my problem, and just walked out and left me there. And I've never been in such a vulnerable state. And that was the moment I needed the most help. And to be honest, I thought my experience was unique. But when I started meeting other mothers through the birth trauma association and other fantastic charities like Masek, I realized that I was not alone. And there were thousands of women across the UK who'd had shocking stories of not being listened to, as the other guest just said pain relief being denied examples of things like being told to clear up blood that they've dropped on the floor being told when they've had a C-section to go and collect things from the canteen to feed themselves and they can't walk after major abdominal surgery. I think we do need

to have a really frank discussion in the UK about the levels of maternity care and in my view they're unacceptable and lack of compassion that I've seen firsthand from some of our NHS staff. And I think it's important to say some mum's giving birth today are going to have a very good experience. But I think what today's investigation shows and the birth trauma inquiry and many others, such as Donna Ockenden's investigations into Leeds in Nottingham, is that unfortunately there is firstly a postcode lottery in the UK. So depending on where you currently give birth, you will actually receive a different level of care. And I don't think that's acceptable. And I think the government should address that.

What needs to change? What would have changed your experience? Well, I think the biggest issue is that there have been. so many investigations in the last 10 years and they're just not learning the lessons. I mean, how is it that we're in effect having multiple reports coming out with the same points, but they haven't learned the lessons from previous inquiries. I mean, I've met with Bill Kirkup, who led the East Kent Inquiry. I've met with Donne Rockenden, who's doing the investigation to Lees and Nottingham.

And we're all saying the same thing. And it's shocking to me that the government has not actually implemented these previous policy recommendations. I mean, I remember going to visit St. George's Hospital and Tutank. a meeting with a frontline doctor in the ward. And I asked him, where do you get your maternity policy guidance? And he said that even he had to refer to over 80 different documents to work out what an earth was the maternity policy

as a doctor in an actual maternity ward. So this is my point. I think we need to have an accountable person who is not subject to government reshuffles that's going to constantly change, who we feel as parents, listens to us who cares and is going to deliver and do the follow-up of all of these policy recommendations.

And I think that will make the difference and that's why it's so important. And Pippa, same to you. I mean, this interim report is so shocking and damning. We've talked about sort of the structural racism that leads to inequalities, persistent inequalities, the discrimination against disabled women, Muslim families, refugees, asylum seekers,

that actually some of the buildings aren't fit for purpose. What would you like to see happen next? I would like better training for midwives. I would like safer environments for women going into the maternity ward, culturally competent care. I would like people to learn from the mistakes that have been made and to just in general to do better, to do better. I'd like to thank you both for speaking to me this morning. The text number 84844, if you'd like to share your experience. But for now, Pippa Bennett-Warner and Theo Clark, thank you very much.

And Health Secretary Westreating has promised to act on Baroness Amos's final recommendations, which are due in April now. We've just had a message in from one of you saying, I have three girls, age 10, 12 and 15. Only the two older girls have phones to contact the family, and they have no access to social media, which is a family decision. There are many days that they discuss that they don't want to have access, and there are other days when they wish.

they had access. I still think they're too young to discriminate between reality and fiction and the more I hear about it, the more I feel I've made the right decision. The reason you've sent me that message is because of the two young women I'm about to speak to. Young people's access to social media is rarely out of the spotlight. Today, it's reported that Mumsnet is using cigarette packet style stark warnings in an advertising campaign asking for people to email their MP and call for a social media ban for under 16s. And this weekend, there's a new documentary out, Molly versus the Machines. It tells the story of Ian Russell and his fight for online safety.

Ian's daughter Molly took her own life in 2017 following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. There are two narratives in the film, the story of what happened to Molly in the lead up to her tragic death, and that of the broader economic logic behind AI and the giant tech companies as it influences and infiltrated. its lives. Several of Molly's friends took part in the documentary, including Charlotte Campbell and Sophie Conlin, who joined me now in the studio. Welcome both of you and thank you for coming in.

Thank you for having us. Why did you think it was important to take part in this film? I think it's one thing when it comes from somebody older than you when you're our age or when you're younger. When we were that age, we listen to adults telling us, get off your phones, get off your phones, and we took it as a pinch of salt. I think when it comes from somebody who's been through it firsthand at that age, I think, and we have met younger people who have been able to identify with us a little bit more than they would have been with a, you know, a teacher or a parent. And I think it is important that young people feel safe talking to each other about these things

because I think it is a very big problem, as we know, and it's getting vastly overlooked. What was it like watching the film? Have you seen it? Yeah. Yeah. It was really difficult. It almost feels surreal because to us it's just Molly. She's our friend.

Yeah. But, you know, when you watch the documentary, you see the power and the message that it's betraying and you realize how important it actually is. And I think that's why we've actually chosen to speak out about it more. At some points, I saw you're holding hands. You can see how tight a friendship group you are. And one of you said it was like watching a crime documentary. Yeah.

It's not something that anybody expects to happen to them or to anybody around them. And especially at that age, you know, I think when, I mean, you shouldn't expect it at any point, but considering how bright of a character Molly was and the absolute light and energy she carried, it was detrimental when it happened. Well, I think it's really important that we talk about,

your friend. Tell us about Molly. Molly was the best. She was so bubbly and so friendly and she really, really cared about her friends. Genuinely. Yeah, no genuinely. She really, really cared. It was always if you're okay and how you are and what you've been up to and she just wanted you to be the best version of yourself, which is really, you know, hard to find in something like high school. Yeah. Yeah, I think in high school was very easy for girls to get. sucked into, you know, the competition between, you know, and now that they have social media, they have to have the nicest Instagram pictures

and they have to be showing off what they're doing on the weekends, not just the competition in school on a daily basis. And I think not only dark content that Molly was viewing, I think just the general addiction to social media is such a problem. And I think that's a lot of the message, especially now with AI. Yeah. Was she thoughtful? Was she outspoken?

Was she the quiet one? She was not quiet when you knew her. She was a little bit sassy, but in the best way possible. And she was just so much fun. She always had so much energy. And it's crazy because I would genuinely describe her as happy. And she was the one girl that got on with everybody in the school. Like everybody liked her.

She could coast from like this friendship group to this. So like complete opposites. And she was just cool with everybody. She was just good to be around her. her character and her energy yeah um and were you a big group of school friends give us some more context tell us about what what kind of group you were the studios creative um oh you know what i would say we were quite creative you know we did like performing arts together that was like a big bonding thing for us did like drama i mean molly bonded over musical theatre yeah um yeah i don't i don't know it's kind of weird to

describe ourselves um but we just got along with people yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean i i mean High school is high school, I mean, there's going to be, obviously, things that are canon events you can't avoid. But I think up until, obviously, Molly, like, we were... I would say we respected teachers. Yeah, we were classic sort of just like, we weren't, you know, we weren't too popular, we weren't too quiet. We were sort of like in the middle. In the documentary, and what happens in the documentaries is that they recreate the inquest and that you all watch live.

And what's really interesting is then we see you as a group of friends reflecting on the details that you learn through the inquest, which I'm sure you didn't know at the time. And I think Charlotte in the dock, you say looking back, you said that you started noticing tiny shifts in different areas of Molly. Like small differences. Yeah, definitely. But at that time, you know, you don't really. really think much of it. It, you know, it's cold, so you're going to wear a long sleeve under your t-shirt.

You know, she went from skirts to trousers. It's like I said, you know, it's starting to get colder. And, you know, also, you're changing, you're finding yourself in high school. So you don't think. And it's not something at that age you want to call out on somebody else. And at that time, there was such a stigma around it still. So it felt like almost an attack. Hmm.

And what was it like to hear the outcome of the inquest when it was performed and spoken out loud? It was shocking. You know, when we saw the inquest, that was the first time we had actually seen it. We had heard, you know, verbatim what they said because it's from the transcript. Actually, I just remind everybody, because I started the program with it. But what it said was it is likely that the material viewed by Molly already suffering with a depressed. illness and vulnerable due to her age, affected her mental health in a negative way

and contributed to her death in a more than minimal way. Yeah, that was harder here. But it also felt like we're moving forward. You know, social media is being held accountable for a death, our friend's death. So it was hard because you don't want that, you know. But then it's also a reason. And that, I think that really, really helped

with a bit of closure. Yeah, I think, of course, it was for a good cause and everything that now is from that. That's sort of where it all started. And, I mean, when we saw it, it was only actors and actresses, like replaying it to us. But I can't imagine.

I mean, the content that we saw the content she was viewing, we saw, you know, things that she was, like, tracking of herself in her phone, such as weight and things. And hearing those things, when you've had such a different idea of somebody, so convincingly as well. And you're her closest great friendship group.

You're like the tight girl group. I'm like for hours a day. Yeah. And it just, I always say I don't know that, Molly. I know my friend who was happy, who loved musical theatre and who cared about her friends. I don't know what social media saw of her. I don't know that.

I think Sophie in the film, you make a point that really stood out for me. I mean, you're in your early 20s now, but you were 14 all of you at the time, but you were almost like the guinea pig generation. Yeah, I mean, I remember I had a phone quite young because my parents had split up, so it was a communication device only. But I do remember when social media started coming about

and like just the instant pressures. And because it's so gradual, it's so quiet, you don't realize it's happening. And then, yeah, all of a sudden we're 20 years old. And the validation that comes from these apps now, from likes, shares. I mean, I know they've taken like counts away and such and such, but I think we're ignoring the bigger picture, if I'm being honest.

I think social media needs to be looked at and regulated in many more ways than just Molly, but I think the action that is currently being made is the only way forward, and it is really now or never. Has Molly got justice? I mean, the family waited five years for an inquiry and an inquest. It's the first time a tech platform had been held formally responsible, for the death of a child.

And do you think she's got justice? I don't believe so. I think justice will be served when these tech companies take accountability and realise what they've done. And you see it in the documentary, they have researchers that we find out from them being whistleblowers

that they knew. They knew what was going on. They knew how it was negatively impacting children, especially, you know, around the teenage years. and they did nothing. They just profited of it. And that's hard. That's hard to comprehend.

What would justice look like for Molly? I mean, it's hard to say at this point in time because she's gone. There isn't anything that can bring Molly back. But I think if, because the thing is we can say, yeah, there's things that have changed and these tech companies have done their part, but there's been more children that have passed away from the same thing.

So if it was just one person, fine, you can call it an anomaly, but it's not. So I think just this, I mean, I don't personally work in tech. I couldn't tell you the way that these people could change their platforms, but I think whatever does happen, a big change needs to be made. I think it's another one of your friends, Neve, who says in the documentary, there needs to be an online safety law that tech companies have to follow. And then she talks about Molly's dad, Ian, who's also been on this program. And, you know, he's very vocal for years.

She says, what can he do up against a CEO of a multi-billion dollar tech company? And I know you all feel very strongly about Ian, Molly's dad. Yeah, we love him. He's just incredible. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's exactly what Neve said. Like, it's hard. It's hard. Like, even for us, we're only 20.

We're only speaking out now because it does. We are getting to a point in time where as a community and as humans, it does. We're becoming helpless to a lot of things in life. And I feel like everybody, it doesn't matter what age you are anymore. You go on social media and it is, it's constant negativity, whether it's politics, whether it's something else. Like it is, it's a very miserable place to be nowadays. And I think that reflects onto regular human communication as well.

And I think we need to just speak. Spread awareness. I think we just need to get more of the conversation started. I think change will come. But the main thing right now is just getting people talking. I think Ian's now got his small army. Yeah. Now that you've all grown up. It's growing, though. We won't be small for long. Absolutely. Whilst I was watching it, and it is a brilliant documentary, because it just gives you such a great insight into so many different layers. The way it's been made, the sort of parallels between the time that you were growing up and what was happening in tech. and the advancement of technology and social media. But something that really struck me was also you're a group of young women who have had to go through a huge trauma. And in the most formative time of your life,

you lost your friend at 14. And one of your friends talks about survivors guilt. And she said it could have been any one of us. So how, like, I mean, this will always be with you. Yeah. So do you talk about that amongst yourselves? We, I mean, we talk about her all the time. Like every time we see each other, it's like she's in the other room.

You know, she's always going to be with us. But, yeah, I know, there is a sense of survivor's guilt because, like, I think it was Neve who said it. It could have been any one of us, you know? That content was everywhere. So it could, genuinely, it could have been anyone, and it just happened to be Molly. Do you remember what your relationship was like with social?

media when you were at that time um it was very very i would say like anxiety ridden there was so much pressure around you know what do you post uh what do people think of what you're posting you know do i look pretty in this and it can be a lot it can you know a 14 year old shouldn't be worrying about that you should be worrying about you know your school work and your family and your friends but there was just this added extra pressure which just didn't need to be there. What would you say to then? Go on, sorry. I was just going to say, and for what really?

Because I mean, if the so-called intention of all of these apps and sharing platforms are to, you know, just, it's like a digital scrapbook and you just post your memories and this up. Then why is everybody? Because it is. It's every single person that posts on anything. There is a pressure because you know people are going to look at what you're posting. And whether you care or not, that is a thought that's going to pass your head.

People are going to view this, what I'm putting out there. And I feel like psychologically, like, that can't be good for you. Like, you have to be happy with what you're doing. And I think, yeah, there's just such a, there's so many things that need to be looked into with social media. Yeah. Who do you hope will watch this film? I hope.

You know, as many people as possible. Do you think young people, teenagers? You know what? I really, really hope so. I think this could really open their eyes and be beneficial for them. Because I think there's a lot of parents who are at a loss as to what to do. Yeah. And they find it really difficult.

We've talked about it loads on this programme and it's like, you know, war breaks out when it comes to the telephone. Yeah. I mean, I remember it with my parents. Like, it's so hard. And I mean, neither of us have kids. But I can imagine like, because I obviously was that child in that experience, like you don't listen to your parents.

Like they just. They can't relate. Yeah. It weren't grown on social media. We grew up with it. Yeah. how can they understand when they're speaking to us about it? So I think that's why it's so important for people like me and Sophie,

who did grow up on social media because we were the Guinea Pig generation, to actually have these discussions because hopefully young people will listen and be able to relate. Yeah, because they're more likely to listen to you. Yeah. And maybe parents and their teenagers should watch the documentary together. 100%. Yeah.

I'd like to thank you both for coming in. Thank you. Thank you. so much to you both Sophie and Charlotte. And we have a statement from a spokesperson from META who said, our thoughts remain with Molly's friends and family. We know parents and teens want a safe experience online, which is why we've spent over a decade working with UK experts, parents and charities to build protections for teens into our platforms. This includes defaulting all teens under 18 into private accounts, restricting who can message them and the content they see

while giving parents the option to supervise their teens accounts. Actually, before you go, we've got the woman who was instrumental in bringing a ban for social media to under 16s in Australia. Do you think we should have the same thing here? No. No. No, it won't work. How interesting. You're going to leave me on that. We'll have to get you back in to talk about, tell us more. Very quickly, why won't it work?

Children are smart. I think we're really underestimating them, you know, the use of VPNs. I mean, we've seen in Australia as well. if we're just going to copy Australia, the kids are just going to copy the Australian kids. And they've already broken through many loopholes to get the content that they want. There's other platforms out there. It doesn't really make a difference.

And we'll go to other platforms that are regulated. So we're just not protecting them at all. So how do we do it? The content needs to be regulated. They have the resources. They just don't want to do it. It's just profit. That's why I think.

Thank you. Both of you. Thank you. and Molly versus the Machines has its world premiere at the Glasgow Film Festival and in more than 50 cinemas nationwide this Sunday March the 1st. It will then be shown on Channel 4 on Thursday

5th of March at 9pm and if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this conversation or in the program then please go to the BBC Action Line website where you'll find links to support groups and organisations. I'm going to read out another one of your messages here saying I have two young people who are now 19 and 21 and monitoring the use of social media has been difficult.

I support a ban on social media for under 16s. My experience is that my young people's use exploded during the pandemic for school and friendships. However, the type of content they are fed is so addictive it has left a lot of problems. My older daughter has now realised social media is a time-waster. However, my son finds it harder to regulate the use. As I said, keep your thoughts coming in

and your questions because we're going to continue this conversation and discussion tomorrow. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure.

The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, last week, the Taliban published a new penal code, and women's rights groups have said that women and girls in particular are set to suffer the hands of the courts in Afghanistan. I'm joined now by Majuba Naruzi, a senior journalist for the BBC's Afghan Center and Manizha Bhaktari,

who was the Afghan ambassador to Austria until the Taliban took control in 2021. She continues to be an ambassador but without a country representing the Afghan people against the Taliban's order. She remains accredited in Vienna and works with a renewed focus on advocating for the rights of women and girls in Afghanistan. Manuja and Maniza welcome. Manuja, I'm going to come to you first. Tell us more about what you know about the Penal Code and how the Taliban says it will work. Hi, thanks for having me. In January, 2006, the Taliban authorities in Afghanistan adopted a new penal code that legal experts and rights groups say has major implications for women's legal status and daily lives.

The 119 article code assigned by the supreme leader Hibbatullah Ochanzada and distributed to courts nationwide allows a husband and listen to this allows a husband to physically punish his wife and children as long as it does not cause broken bones or open winds.

So even in cases where serious arm is alleged, the maximum penalty is around just two weeks in prison. They could also criminalizes some actions by women, for example, visiting family without husband's permission. It can lead to a prison sentence for the woman and women who claim harm in court must provide proof. And critics say these measures, alongside existing restrictions on movement, dress and education, further limits women's access to justice and everyday freedoms under the Taliban's interpretation of Islamic law. Manisia, what's been your reaction to this and also the reaction from women and girls in Afghanistan, who I know you speak to? First and foremost, thank you so much for having me and hi to Madame Nauruzi.

So I would say since August 2021, Afghanistan has undergone a profound transformation, but not towards stability or equality, but towards systemic oppression. And what we are witnessing is not serious of isolated incidents or policies, and it's not like temporary emergency measures this day. deliberate system and construction, I mean, construction of a system of governance built on exclusion, fair and gender-based discrimination. And, you know, over the past four and half years, hundreds of degrees and directives have been issued that all of them collectively regulate almost all aspects of women's lives. And you know that women have been born.

from education, have been removed from public offices, excluded from decision-making and dismissed from government employees and also bought from most sectors of economic participation. And, you know, Afghanistan today is governed without women and against women. That is the situation of women in Afghanistan, unfortunately. We call that the system because it's a system of segregation, subjugation, and structured discrimination, gender apartheid. Because it is, as I said, it's not just some policies or some isolated incidents. It is deliberately designed to race women.

And these elements are deeply interconnected, you know, and human rights is a package. and as I would say that our women do not have even one single elements of this package. That is the situation of our woman and girls. And as Madhuba pointed out in this new penal code, the husband can beat his wife and children as long as they don't break any bones. I mean, whenever we talk about more sort of restrictions on the lives of women in Afghanistan on this program, because we do a lot, I wonder, what's the end game? Well, that is an ideology.

They built their de facto so-called governance based on discrimination. And also that is based on their ideology and their interpretation from Islam mixed by some traditional beliefs. And also it's lack of knowledge, you know, because the Taliban do not have intellectual capacity to run a country. They were an armed group and they still remained an own group and they act like that. And they refer everything to God and they do not take any responsibility towards their people. And this hostility and gravity of oppression towards women is unbelievable in this period of the time. And it looks surreal. It doesn't look real. Well, Majuba, you've recently returned from Kabul.

What was your experience and of being. in the city and about the situation around women and girls? And did you see any women in public life? And what did they talk to you about? Yes. I'm personally interested in reporting about women. So I spent three weeks in Kabul reporting as a female journalist for Afghan service. So as a woman, I witnessed challenges I never expected to see. Yet women in Afghanistan show remarkable resilience, constantly adapting and finding ways to cope with their status quo. But I have to say that Kabul does not represent a whole country. Afghanistan is a land of contrasts, while Kabul like Herod and Mazurashiriv, is relatively

more progressive, still kind of reflects deep, deep inequalities. I met women who had opened small businesses and others working in women-only restaurants or at the airport. I also met girls who had studied computer science but now earn a small income from embroidery and others who once dreamed of becoming doctors or engineers but are selling homemade pickles in a state on the streets. At the same time, poverty is so stark, women in Borke's big on the streets. Most women wear black buyers, headscarves and face masks, though some likely visiting from abroad like me

appear without face coverings. So in Kabul generally, restrictions exist and you can tell it exists. they are not fully, fully enforced in some parts of Kabul, if I can say so. Manisha, you had the role as the ambassador for Afghanistan in Austria. You were based in Vienna and you still are. What happened in 2021 to your role when the Taliban took over? Well, after the collapse, I am out of a profound sense of responsibility. I chose to remain in my office and to run my office.

And although I faced a lot of barriers and I had to move my embassy to a corner of the city and also we lost all the privilege that diplomat have, regardless, we managed to run and the new premises served its purpose and we still have our flag and we still work under the regulation and the constitutions once we had in Afghanistan. Fortunately, my credentials are valid and the Austrian government did not withdraw it. And also the United Nations, based in Vienna and other international organizations based in Vienna, did not draw my credentials. So I'm welcomed everywhere. And I actually function as the ambassador.

And every morning I wake up and I do all the, if not all, most of the duties that an ambassador has. I function well, although I transferred my mission to a half for human rights and women's rights, and I advocate for my people's rights. But still I function as the ambassador with a lot of barriers. Yeah. There was a documentary made about you called The Last Ambassador and about the work that you do in Vienna and also with the Afghan diaspora. The final shot of this documentary is you looking across the border at your homeland.

What's it like? And this is a question for both of you. Doing the work in both your capacities as journalist and an ambassador and advocating for women's rights, but knowing that you are in the safety of Austria and the UK. Well, that's very true. I couldn't, although I was looking to Afghanistan from a distance, you know, at the end of this documentary, but I knew that I couldn't go to Afghanistan. Yeah. Because if I go, then I knew what would happen to me.

Of course, for women, outspoken woman like me. What would happen? Well, they would immediately put me in prison. They would torture me and they shut my voice down, you know. So I couldn't go. Of course, I have a platform here. I have the freedom and I can exercise my rights to advocate and lobby for my sisters in Afghanistan. But if I go back to Afghanistan, of course, I couldn't do.

that animal. Yeah. And Majuba, you went back. I mean, you talked about being in Kabul, but that was in January last year. It was the first time you'd been back in 26 years. And whilst you were there, you also met with the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I mean, what was that experience like for you?

And what impression did you get when you talked to the Minister? Yeah, I mean, it was such a surreal experience when I went to Afghanistan after 26 years. So first of all, it was a very very, very, very emotional, very emotional trip for me. And as soon as I arrived in Afghanistan, and I was on the plane, I was not like thinking so much, and I was just looking at the beauty of Afghanistan,

and I was not feeling anything. And then when I landed, I received a text message saying that, or welcome to Afghanistan, and I just couldn't stop crying and weeping like a child, like joining a lost mother. So it was very, very emotional for me, and I am very, very fortunate and like Manisia, that I can travel and go back to Afghanistan as a journalist. So, yes, and I met actually I met the foreign minister this time, when I went to Afghanistan, it was in December last year. And I met him during an official, an official visit that lasted around half an hour.

He came across as witty, friendly and hospitable. During the conversation, he outlined the Taliban government's position and range of domestic and foreign policy issues. He said that they were seeking to balance the views of more conservative and more moderate provinces. In that context, he explained that girls' education had not been fully banned, but was currently limited to primary level up to grade 6 around age 12. So he also stated that decisions made by their leader in Kandahar are to be implemented across the country. He maintained that peace and security had been established, that the economy was improving, and that roads and infrastructures were being rebuilt.

But in a separate interview, the country director of the World Food Programme in Afghanistan told me that 17 million were facing acute hunger and that millions of mothers and children were affected by. malnutrition. And also, you know from spending time there and the reports coming out, there's lots, lots is happening to oppress and control women. I would like to thank you both for joining me to talk to me this morning, Manija, Bakhtari, Emma Juba, Nauruzi, and the documentary, The Last Ambassador about Manisia is screening tonight at the Frontline Club in London. Thank you. Now, fantasy fiction author, Sarah L. Arifie's new book, boldly reimagines one of history's most iconic women, Cleopatra, the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty ruling Egypt. In Sarah's novel, she strives to

connect the voice of Egypt's Las Pharaoh with contemporary experiences of womanhood. Cleopatra is portrayed as a woman who refuses to be confined by any limitations imposed by men or society. And Sarah gives her the words, look within and you will see which whore villain. But I am also Cleopatra, the mother, the lover, the friend. And so much more, I am abundant. And the Queen's story is reclaimed through the eyes of a black woman. Sarah, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure.

That's a powerful line to put into the mouth of Cleopatra. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me where the idea for this book came from. Well, I've always had this affinity to her. I'm not really, you know, I don't actually know whether this memory is real or not, but as a child, I've thought about it a lot. And I was told, my teacher said, draw Cleopatra. And I reached for the brown crayon.

And it was always the one that was never used. It was very the pointed one, you know. And I used that. And I often think back to that because why did I choose the brown crayon? Why did I think, oh, immediately she is someone, she's a sister. You didn't see Elizabeth Taylor? I did not. I hadn't even watched the film at that point.

And so I thought about that a lot when I actually went back to university. I did a master's degree in African studies. And so I concentrated my dissertation on exploring the commonality with Cleopatra and black women. Why do we have an affinity to her? And that was really, really eye-opening. I really, like, dismantled her as a myth and as a symbol. And why do I feel so safe within her myth? Because she's othered and she's exorcised and exorcised and sexualized and all the eyes.

And that's something that I can relate to. What do we know for certain about her? So little. Honestly, so little. And that really surprised me because with my dissertation, it was about thinking about her as a symbol. But when I sat down to write the book, it was like, I have to humanise her. Okay, so let's look at history and I was so excited. I started getting up all the books. I was like, there must be so much because everyone has an idea of who she is.

I think everyone has, often Elizabeth Taylor, but everyone has an image in their head and they know who she is. And I was so disappointed. I sat down and I started reading. I was like, there's so little we actually know. Everything that we kind of base her story on her myth on is, was written 150 years after she died. After she died. And who was writing about her? Mostly Plutarch is the story that most people,

referred to when they think of Cleopatra. So Shakespeare based most of his play on Plutarch's writings. And even then she was just a footnote, which is so frustrating to me. And what do we know for certain? What's disputed? Everything is up for being disputed because there is honestly so little. There are certain beats. We know that she must have been with C's and she must have been with Mark Anthony.

We can assume that because so many histories do cite that. but in some ways I was given freedom I could write what I wanted So describe your version of Cleopatra She is far more than what You know history has told us And even though I've said, you know, there's not much But we see time and time again

We talk about, you know, which whore and villain I really wanted to explore her as a scholar She spoke nine languages That was really fascinating to learn She was a mother We forget she had four children, you know That to me was very important because I actually gave birth during writing this novel.

And I think the first pen to paper, it was three weeks postpartum. So I was going to Egypt three months after my baby was born. So, yeah, the shock on your face. No, no. I mean, shock and delight, actually. My mind has just gone to wonder how that changed your experience and actually the way you thought about this person. Absolutely.

So mother is often what I think about now when I think of Cleopatra because it was such a raw time for me and writing those moments were so special. Definitely moments that I can see myself on the page there through her. Also, Sarah, there will be women thinking, how on earth did she get to Egypt to do this research three months? How did you do that? Did you must have a lot of help?

Well, I went with my poor sister. Thank you so much, Sally, for coming. And I was literally pumping in taxis, in bus stops. It was, it's not the easiest thing to do doing a research trip. I did leave my newborn at home, which was really hard. But yeah, I did do it for the craft, let's say. Your book has a beautiful audiobook version read by Adjua Ando.

We've got a clip. Let's have a listen. I was a pharaoh once. A wife twice. A mother more than thrice. I have ever been what people sought to find. Some call me queen, lover, mama. Others call me witch, villain, whore. Each archetype is a brick that has raised me up like the great pyramids

further and further away from my humanity until I have become nothing more than a myth. It is hard to know me at such a great distance. My image shimmers behind the sand-filled haze of Egypt's sunset. Am I a mirage? Or the water you seek? I mean what a coup getting adduate voice it. Absolutely incredible. The book is based, it's a memoir. It's Cleopatra's memoir. And it's through the lens of her being a black woman. And you said there's lots that you felt that you could relate to give us some more insight into. Yeah. So the reason, first of all, why I chose it to kind of be a memoir, because when I realized that there was literally nothing we truly knew about her, I thought, what is truer than memory? What is it more special and more raw than memory? And so that, that's, was kind of the intention I was going for when I was writing it as a memoir. And then when it comes to her race specifically, at no stage in the novel do I actually talk about her skin.

Because to me, I think Cleopatra's myth has been through the ringer and everyone just constantly talks about her skin colour. And honestly, it doesn't really matter because the construct of race didn't even exist. Who she was was othered. She was sexualised. Like I've said, and I think that for me was the big thing was describing her as a woman who was victimized by the Western world, by the Romans around her. You know, even her history is all written by the same version of a white Roman or Greek man. I really just wanted to reclaim that. And I think the more important thing is that it's through my lens, my eyes as a black woman, rather than painting her with a race, it's more about who I am as I write Cleopatra and who she was to me.

and that was a sister and a safe space. I'm thinking back to the little you with the brown crayon. And now you here talking to me about the book that you've written. It's just wild. Last year you won a British book award for your romantic fantasy novel, Faye Bound. In your speech you talked about the barriers you face as a black queer woman. How have those barriers evolved since then? I think it's, publishing is a really difficult, an old school, I guess, business.

It is a business and I think people forget that. It is hard sometimes because I see these barriers still exist for black queer women, for people of colour. And I do constantly, you know, fight to bring them down, given the amazing success that I have had, which is just wonderful and I still can't believe I won a British Book Award. But, you know, the most importantly I have hope. And I think that's what, you know, I think about with Cleopatra, this book is on the shelves today, you know? and that wouldn't necessarily have happened before, written by a black woman who won a British Book Award.

Hope is there. And the next generation that you will be inspiring. Absolutely. What makes her story relevant for women today? Oh, my goodness. Look at the world that we live in. I actually can't believe that the post-apocalyptic world we live in. Again, it is back to hope.

The one thing that I will always remember is that empires do fall. And despite the totalism regimes that we see rising around the world, things will change and women's voices will always be heard. Saral El Rafi, thank you so much for coming in. And her book, Cleopatra is out today. Tomorrow, artist Tracy Emin joins me as a new exhibition opens at the Tate Modern in London, tracing 40 years of her groundbreaking boundary challenging work, including the 1998's famously controversial piece, My Bed. I'll tell you all about it because I'm off to see it. And as I said earlier, I'll be talking to Dr. Danielle Einstein,

whose research was very influential in shaping Australia's social media band for under 16. So if you do have any questions or would like to share your story, then do get in touch with the programme. And you never know. We may put your question to her tomorrow. Do join me then at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Noel Titheridge. And for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, this is Impulse. What happens when someone's personality changes completely? It was completely out of count. I've never done it before, never done it since. And it's because of a prescription drug. I asked myself, why would you do such a thing? What were you thinking?

I've been uncovering the shocking side effects linked to medications called dopamine agonists. For BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, This is Impulsive. Subscribe to Shadow World. Impulsive now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

could definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.