Woman's Hour - Mona Eltahawy on embracing female anger; Maternal ambivalence; Women in the Senedd

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

'We need to dismantle the patriarchy' is a familiar feminist rallying cry. But Egyptian-American writer and activist Mona Eltahawy believes we should stop just saying it, and start actively defying and disrupting the patriarchy now - with force if necessary. Mona's latest book is The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls. She joins Emma to explain why she wrote it with enough 'rage to fuel a rocket.'In a recent article, writer and travel editor at the Independent, Cathy Adams said she wished the phrase 'I sometimes resent my baby' went down better at the pub. She describes imagining an alternate life without her son at the centre, and how thirteen months after her son's birth she's still struggling to articulate her feelings because of the lack of language surrounding maternal ambivalence. Cathy joins Emma - along with Amy Brown, a Professor of Child Public Health - to discuss these conflicting emotions and why we find it so hard to openly talk about the challenges of being a parent.In Thursday’s Elections in Wales Natasha Asghar made history by becoming the first woman from a Black or Asian Minority Ethnic (BAME) background to be elected to the Welsh Senedd. She’ll represent South Wales East for the Tories – a seat held by her dad until his death last year. However the overall number of women elected was down on the last Election. Emma talks to Natasha about what the victory means to her and how she feels about following in her father’s footsteps. Plus Jess Blair from the Electoral Reform Society Wales tells us why more needs to be done to make sure that we see more women coming through.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Now that we know England will be going full steam ahead with lifting lockdown from next Monday and that socialising indoors and cautious hugging have been prescribed by the Prime Minister, are you struggling to remember how to plan, how to plot a weekend, how to schedule a social life? Personally, in need of some help, I loved how Time Out put it on their website as I consulted it last night, trying to sort of remember how to sort a weekend for myself. They put it as trying to relearn how weekends work, find out the best things going on this Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

How are you finding it? How are you getting yourself back involved? Perhaps you are the person in your house that does a lot of this, that tries to assemble some kind of life outside of work, some kind of play and pleasure. How do you remember to do it? How are you doing it? 84844, text will be charged at your standard message rate or let us know on social media at BBC Women's Hour. We hope to have a bit of help on hand for you shortly on that front. Also on today's programme, I'll be talking to a woman who loves her child but hates the life that comes with it.

Maternal ambivalence is one name for what she's feeling. A huge taboo. Kathy Adams has put it down in writing and she joins us to talk about it today. And one of the phrases that she wishes went down better at the pub were and is, I sometimes resent my baby. If you feel in any way connected to that

or want to say something about it, this is your space, your platform, your microphone. Do let us know because it is a job and it might not be something that you quite understood before taking it on. Not just the actual art of looking after and the grind of looking after a child, but how it makes you feel and how it affects your life and your identity. And how are your rage levels? Mona Eltahawy is an Egyptian-American writer and activist.

She believes women have to start actively defying, disobeying and disrupting the patriarchy now, today and with force if necessary. Hear her make the case for this type of feminism shortly and let us know, of course, what you think. But this time next week, a lot will be different in England. You'll be able to sit inside a pub, have a friend inside your home for dinner, go out out to multiple bars, whatever floats your boat. But after more than a year of not doing any of these things, not properly anyway, not in the way that we've been used, you might be feeling overwhelmed by how to actually make plans. So I'm not talking here about feeling anxious about going out.

We have talked about that and that is a very real feeling. It's actually about how to structure your pleasure again your life outside of work and someone who might be able to help Hattie Pearson event host and DJ in Salford is on the line Hattie good morning hi Emma thank you for having me do you recognize this this issue as someone who wants to get people together to to celebrate to be themselves to be free that people aren't even knowing how to get off the blocks? Well, I'm not sure about that. I think there is, from my perspective anyway, a desperation to just get out and do anything, quite frankly. And I think, you know, the last few weeks, we've been slowly easing being able to, you know, meet outdoors at pubs and outdoor venues. I've been DJing socially distanced outdoor spaces and some yoga events,

DJing early mornings and things. So personally, I've been getting used to it again. But I think people, it's in our makeup, it's in our DNA to be connected with others. So I don't think there's going to be a lack of want or desire to get back out there and make plans. I think more than anything, it's probably an overwhelm of there's so much choice because everything's opening again.

Yes. And what do you pick? How do you make those selections? Exactly. And I think that that is the challenge that everyone's going to face. You know, lots of venues, music venues, restaurants that have been closed for so long that haven't had the capacity to be opening in recent weeks outside that don't have the space. You know, it's going to be brand new for them come Monday. Obviously, cinemas and theatres as well are going to be reopening. So perhaps it's about looking back at what you enjoyed doing. No, no, that's no joke. I keep a paper diary and I actually went back to two years ago to try and remember what I used to do.

Yeah. And that is exactly that. Like, I forgot that I love going to the cinema. And actually, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I don't even care that I'm going to pay like eight quid for overpriced popcorn on Monday, but I'm going to do it anyway. And, you know, the little pots of ice cream at the theatre, like I've actually really missed that, you know. And so looking back, I'm thinking, well, I love, you love you know the Royal Exchange in Manchester which is near where I live that's my favourite theatre and I'm going to go and support them you know they need my support and many others thinking about your favourite music venues or bands that you really enjoy lots of

bands have been really struggling for obvious reasons over the last year so looking to see whether they've got tours and thinking ahead you you know, maybe they have tours in September or later in the autumn. You can book tickets for those, get it in your diary and then it's done and hopefully they'll go ahead. But, you know, and being understanding, I think, is the main thing. Lots of people are adjusting. There's lots of new staff as well. The staff turnover has been has been really challenging as well. Lots of people have had to move out of work because of furlough or move back home with their parents, students, that kind of situation. So there's lots of new staff in these hospitality kind of venues.

And so it's giving them the opportunity to adjust as well. It's not just us as punters, as consumers the venues themselves have a have a real task on their hands although i mean the thing is at the moment we're in we're in a stage of it not having as much serendipity you have to book you have to plan you have to think ahead because people have had to plan for capacity and social distancing i think that will continue yes as of mond Monday venues reopen um indoors but you know the weather hasn't been great I don't know why Manchester at least for the last couple of weeks it hasn't been ideal I know one of the venues that I've been DJing at Albert Strossen in town had to completely cancel their diary and cancel all bookings um because it was raining and people were sitting

out in the rain you know even with covers it was just that torrential rain so they just couldn't they couldn't do that to their customers but as soon as they open indoors they've got a much bigger space and they'll be able to cater for that but you know i think having a heat wave and everyone will want to sit outdoors again very different to this time last year for a lot of places the weather but what what you said there about you know i think everybody's craving it they want to get it back out there i can already see some messages uh countering that the idea that you know you've filled your life you've changed and you found other ways to to fill the hours for some people it won't be a case of that even if it's good for them yeah i agree you know i think it's fair to say that we probably the majority of us perhaps have connected with

nature in a way that we haven't um before and that will certainly stick and we'll continue to go for long walks with our friends or you know spending much more time at home but i do believe you know that there is nothing better ever than standing in a field with a stranger at a festival covered in mud dancing to your favourite band. And lots of people disagree with me, I'm sure. And, you know, that will take some adjusting to, of course. You know, and there is going to be some anxiety and caution around that. But I think it's about it's just about getting to that point.

You know, I don't disagree, minus the mud. But, you know, I don't disagree with that feeling of being together and having it. I think it's just the getting there that's the thing that perhaps we're out of practice at actually scheduling it I like you know as I say I love the way that Time Out wrote you trying to remember you're trying to learn how to do a weekend again it's about that planning side of things so what what for you is you said about the cinema but is that is there something that you would say to people who are perhaps just thinking I'm not even going to bother and they actually should yeah I do think it's it's thinking about those you know a venue that I've DJ'd at for like the last eight years the Deaf Institute in Manchester where I have my club night um you know I've not DJ'd there since February last year

2020 and that venue has really struggled um and they need our support you know when they open the doors on monday um obviously it's still socially distanced they can't open the club venue upstairs until june um but they need our support and if we don't support them they will suffer and they will close we've already seen um copious closures of pubs um and the decline of that and it's it's a real it's a real severe risk that you know if we don't support them they will continue to the the infrastructure just isn't there um to be able to say right overnight even with the government's kind of outline of yeah june the 26th and working towards that it can't just happen at the drop of a hat like i've got festival bookings for later in the summer and yeah they're in the diary and I hope they go ahead but

we've seen multiple festivals being cancelled up to this stage you know Glastonbury Download, Brighton Pride. I think I think what you're saying there is you know think about where you'd actually like to still see be there on the other side of this and that might be a good place to start but you've also just mentioned a whole other thing, which is people have got used to things being cancelled. So they aren't necessarily having their faith in their diary as they once were to actually follow through on those things. Hattie Pearson, have a very good return as the next stage of Unlock happens,

as you mentioned, the full one being June 21st, I believe, their Hattie Pearson event host and DJ in Salford. A message here, quite striking from Chris on this, just about time changing and what we're doing with it. I began a relationship right at the beginning of lockdown. We were a bubble, obviously saw a fair amount of each other. And now things are nearly back to normal. My partner's getting back to her old social activities, friends and et cetera, and all of them without me. We're both retired. I guess this relationship was just for lockdown.

That's a whole other side of this. But what people are doing with their time is on their mind. And perhaps what you want to be doing with your time is protesting, changing the world, like my next guest wants us all to do. How are your rage levels? I asked because they're not high enough, potentially, for Mona Eltahawy, an Egyptian-American writer and activist. She believes women have their anger socialised out of them and it isn't enough to talk about dismantling the patriarchy, the system of society and government in which men hold the power and women are excluded. She believes women have to start actively defying, disobeying and disrupting it. Now, today and with force if necessary, her latest book is called The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls. And she says she wrote this book with enough rage to fuel a rocket.

Mona, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, Emma. Where's that rage come from? Oh, gosh. A lifetime of fighting patriarchy and realising that I have many more lifetimes to fight it, to get rid of it. But there are some specific incidents, aren't there, in your life that really made you feel that anger? Yeah, I mean, it began when I was four, when a man exposed himself to me and a friend of mine. But, you know, that four year old was enraged enough to believe that what was happening was wrong and waved her little

slipper at this man because she believed she could terrify him. But then that four-year-old girl grew up to become a 15-year-old girl who was sexually assaulted during Hajj, which is the fifth pillar of Islam. You know, I'm of Muslim descent. And at 15, I burst, I froze and burst into tears, a perfectly normal reaction to sexual assault. But, you know, where was the rage of that four year old? And then at the age of 50, five zero now, I was sexually assaulted in a club in Montreal, Canada. And that rage was fully there. And I beat up the man who sexually assaulted him and it was glorious. You beat him up? What did you do? Well, I tracked him down because I could see who it was because he was the only person walking across a crowded dance floor full of people dancing. And I tugged at his shirt from behind. He wasn't expecting it, of course,

because men don't expect us to fight back. And he fell and I sat on top of him and I punched and I punched and I punched. And each time I punched him, I said, don't you ever touch a man like that? Don't you ever touch a woman like that again? And each time I thought I was done punching him, I wasn't. And I continued until he ran away. And then probably, and I wanted to start all over again when a club manager came up to me to ask what happened. And I explained, and he actually turned to my beloved, my partner, looked at him and said to me,

why didn't you let your husband take care of it? I was ready to beat him up all over again. And I said, first of all, he's not my husband. Second of all, this is my body. I take care of it. So it was a lesson that patriarchy allows men to beat us and patriarchy only wants men to defend us. But we're nothing in this scenario, of course. Did that man say anything to you? Did you actually exchange anything between you beyond those blows? No. So after I finished punching him, he stood up. He didn't say anything. But interesting, he wanted to look at me because he wanted to see who's this woman who just beat me up. So he actually stood up and spent a few seconds looking at me. And then I smacked him across the jaw so hard, I almost broke my hand. And that's when he realised I was going to start all over

again and he ran away. Just come back to the violence in just a moment. We have quite a lot of messages coming in from our listeners about this because there is a difference between rage and violence. And obviously one fuels the other, you can argue, but not always. You talk in your book about a curriculum for rage and how women have rage removed from them by society. What do you mean by that? What would be on it? And what do you want women to start doing differently? Well, on that curriculum for rage, for example, I would have older women who are great role models for, you know,

they would model how rage is useful to fighting against patriarchy. So, for example, the writer Ursula K. Le Guin, who in the 1980s gave a graduation speech at a university in the United States called Bryn Mawr, a women's college, and she told the women who were about to graduate, we are volcanoes. When we express ourselves, we change the maps of the world. And she said, you are like volcanoes, but you don't know the power inside you. I want to hear you erupt. So she's telling them right there that when we express our justified rage, it changes the maps of the world. I would also include the bisexual Black poet June Jordan,

whose incredible poem, Poem About My Rights, you know, ends with her saying, my name is not wrong. And it's this incredible, rage-filled poem about sexual violence, state violence, family violence. I would include the lesbian Black poet, also Audre Lorde, who said that anger is like an energy. And when you focus it, and it's precise, it is exactly what we need to challenge patriarchy. So I would include all of these incredible voices of older women who would model for younger women. rage take to you and I'm hoping we can come back to you but if we can't I'll have to return to you shortly because we are getting messages coming in in response to this. For instance one saying it wouldn't be fair in terms of the violence. It's not like men have used

anger or violence to force anything ever. The suffragettes, some sarcasm we're detecting here, as we know were peace loving and calm at all times. There you go. The Stonewall the civil rights marches, never expressed any anger. While I'm not pro-violence, the anger is valid.

Another one here. Why not anger or violence? Righteous indignation or anger is good. Violence is not. Don't demonise angry women as violence. We're going to get Mona back on the line shortly. Mona El-Tawawi, who's just making her case there for why women need to do more than just talk about dismantling the patriarchy. As we

sort her line out, we'll just talk about what was going on again in politics closer to home. Yesterday, we did talk to the former Labour MP Kate Hoey, now Baroness Hoey of Lyle Hill and Rathlin, not part of the Labour Party anymore, about the difficulties leading to others not wanting to be or vote for the Labour Party anymore, the difficulties Labour facing in England after dismal local election results. However, Labour did hold on to power in the Senate with a solid victory in the Welsh Parliament election, winning 30 seats, just one short of the first ever majority in Wales. The Tories won 16 seats and among them South Wales East, which was won by Natasha Asghar, who made history by becoming the first woman from

a black or Asian minority ethnic background to be elected. That was a seat held by her dad until his death last year. We're going to go and hear from Natasha very shortly about that, but also why Wales have gone back backwards in terms of gender representation, having been the first parliament in the world in 2003 to reach gender parity. But I'm actually told that Mona is back on the line. Mona, hello. Hi Emma, I don't know what happened there, sorry. Yeah, maybe you were too angry for your internet connection. Right, so just keep it going with this. I read out a couple of messages, sadly you didn't hear, but just to give you the gist of them from our listeners, why not anger or violence? Righteous indignation is good and anger is good. Violence is not. Do not demonise angry women as violent. Oh yeah. Oh, you know, I don't say that.

So I make it very clear in the chapter on anger that anger doesn't have to mean violence. That's why I have two separate chapters, one on anger and one on violence. But my point is that patriarchy socialises men to believe that their anger and violence are justified, but it socialises girls and women to believe that our anger and violence are unjustified. But there are two separate chapters in the book. One doesn't have to lead to the other. But you do believe yourself, and this is what you were starting to talk about with what happened in the club, that physically fighting back force does have a place. Oh, absolutely. I believe that it is our right to fight back. Now, something really interesting happened after I beat up that man and I wrote about it on Twitter.

I started a hashtag called hashtag I beat my assaulter. And as well as women from around the world sending their stories of how they beat their assaulters, I heard from a professor of law, an American professor of law called Marianne Franks, who said to me, what you did tonight is a perfect example of what I call optimal violence. And she sent me a paper that she wrote in a journal. And optimal violence for her is women practicing more justified violence against men's unjustified violence, because she believes that levels of violence in society right now are skewed, that men practice too much unjustified violence against women. So for example, a man's walking down the street, he thinks twice before he picks a fight with another man because he could take him on. But men rarely,

if ever, think twice about physically assaulting us. So she was saying that society has to change to allow us to express more justified violence. And I'm not saying this to victim blame or to put the blame on women, but to better balance justified against unjustified violence. But there will be, for some, when you have said this, there will be those thinking, well, I just couldn't fight back. So, you know, what am I meant to do with that? And nor do I want to, you know, nor do I want to have to face violence with violence.

I don't think that would solve the problem. I totally understand. And I say again and again in the chapter, I'm not insisting that everyone fight back and not everyone can fight back. That's why I said when I was 15 years old during pilgrimage, I couldn't fight back. All those reactions are perfectly normal. What I do want is to put patriarchy on notice that we can fight back and we will fight back. So that in the same way that a man doesn't pick another fight with a man because he thinks he can take him on, patriarchy socializes men to believe that we too can fight back. And what is really

interesting from the reactions to my chapter on violence is that just by asking the question, you know, something like how many rapists must we kill before men stop raping us? I'm not saying go out there and kill all rapists. Simply by asking that question, there is more anger directed at me for talking about imaginary violence against men than the actual violence men commit against us every day, which during this pandemic has become horrifically clear across the world, at least a 30% increase in violence during lockdown. Do you think feminism, and again, it's very hard to couch everybody's feminism or which part of it they perhaps ascribe to, but for instance, there has been a move and it has become less of a dirty word and inverted commas in the last five

years or so again. Do you think it's become too soft? Because some versions of that feminism talk about taking men with you, humour, deploying certain tactics to just get what you want. And obviously, it'll be very different depending on the exposure that you have had and the systems that you live in. But in some ways, you know, with feminism now on t-shirts, and it being almost a corporate slogan in some ways, it's become more palatable. Yeah, absolutely. This is exactly why I wrote my book, Emma. I wrote my book because I am fed up of polite feminism. And I want this book, I want people to consider my book a Molotov cocktail

to be thrown from the barricades into the belly of patriarchy. And, you know, it's a privilege not to be hurt by patriarchy. I mean, you know, I live in the United States. And, you know, all those white women who voted for Donald Trump, they allowed their race to trump their gender because they're protected through their race. It wasn't just white women who voted for Donald Trump. It was overwhelmingly white women. No, no, but it wasn't. I mean, but that's the thing. I mean, we have to also remember, there are all

sorts of people who support politics that wouldn't fit in with what you're talking about, even if they actually support what you're talking about. It's complicated. It's complicated. But the reason that I'm talking about white women is because the majority of white women voters did vote for Donald Trump. But then when you look at black women, indigenous women, women of color like me in the United States, we don't have the luxury of polite feminism. We don't have the luxury of, you know, just t-shirts and corporate slogans. And when people say that, you know, violence begets violence, or we don't want more violence in the world, who are we talking about? I already have violence in my life because of racism, because of capitalism, because of sexual violence. So when people say to me, you know,

violence begets violence, I want them to ask, what do centuries of patriarchal violence against us beget? Because nothing is changing. If anything, it's become worse under the pandemic. So now what? So I want patriarchy. I'm putting patriarchy on notice that we will no longer extinguish anger in girls because those girls will grow up to demand a reckoning and they will hold patriarchy accountable and that's why I begin with anger and I work up all the way to violence towards the end of the book because even though anger doesn't have to turn violent these are ways of putting patriarchy on notice that we are done. An interesting message from Avis who says two men tried to abduct me when I was 12. I felt fury and I fought. They ran. Afterwards, I felt fear. I learned that day to feel designed that way. But I don't quite know how to express what you're talking about, because I don't necessarily have a forum

or a way of doing that. What would you say? Well, I always tell, especially younger women who ask me, you know, how do I do all of this? That's why I talk about what I call feminism in 3D. And you already read out those 3Ds. They're defy, disobey and disrupt the patriarchy. And I liken it to lifting weights. You know, when you lift weights, you begin with lighter weights, and then you build up as your muscles become stronger. Feminist muscles are the same. So I ask people to find ways every day to defy, disobey, and disrupt the patriarchy.

They can be tiny. But the more you practice it, the stronger your feminist muscles become and you build up that power within you. I don't want to empower anyone like Ursula K. Le Guin. That power is already in us, but we just need to bring it out and we lift the weights through defying, disobeying and disrupting. That's more my kind of gym than the exercise version. Mona, thank you very much for talking to us. Mona Eltahawy with her book, The Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls. Now I was starting to tell you about the political picture in Wales where Natasha Asghar, who's made history by becoming the first woman

from a black or Asian minority ethnic background to be elected, a seat held by her father until his death last year. She's a conservative. Of course, the whole picture there is still dominated by Labour. But in 2003, Wales was the first parliament in the world to reach gender parity with women winning half of the seats. But now it's gone backwards with the number of women elected this time around down on the last election. I spoke to Natasha and also Jess Blair from the Electoral Reform Society Wales just before coming on air.

And I started by asking Natasha what it meant to win that seat following in her dad's footsteps. It honestly feels amazing. I can't tell you the fantastic response that I've received, not just from members in my own constituency of South East Wales, but generally across the world. I've been congratulated by so many people. It's been a whirlwind of a few days, I must be honest with you.

I thought I'd hit the ground running, but I seem to have been spending so much time on my social media and phone for the last few days. It's been a whirlwind of a few days, I must be honest with you. I thought I'd hit the ground running, but I seem to have been spending so much time on my social media and phone for the last few days. It's been incredible. So the feeling has been totally indescribable. But I'm truly elated to be in this position and I certainly hope that it proves to be a positive change here in Wales. Why do you think, though, it has taken so long to have somebody do this? I think there have been a lot of issues in the past. It's one of the reasons why I got into politics. I think there's a common misconception that people don't actually understand the processes one has to go through to politics. It seems a rather daunting job when people look at it from the outside in. We often hear and see about people being trolled. You often

hear about politicians being, you know, verbally abused in the street. It just seems to be a career that a lot of people sort of think to themselves, oh, it's just so much of a hassle. You know, people want to go for a job where you think there's job stability. I grew up in a house and my mom's like, why don't you become a doctor or an engineer or a nice job where you don't have to stress yourself about having to reapply every few years for your job. But it's something that I'm passionate about. And I know the world has become such a big place where everyone loves to talk about politics, what's going on in the world. So there is a genuine desire, but it's our responsibility as politicians to ensure that we make as many people out there involved within politics, encourage them to get into it, understand the system and eventually become parts of the

system. I mean, you've been trying to become a politician for some time. Is it right? You stood for general election. Is it twice oh yeah this is my sixth time so i've done let's get let's start so we've done two welsh assembly this is when it was a welsh assembly it's now a welsh parliament two parliamentary and even one european election as well that was many many moons ago so this is my sixth one and this was the regional one so they say first time lucky second time lucky in my case it's the sixth time this is the sixth time at this particular post as as you're talking about. You're now a politician.

And of course, something that's run in your family, as we refer to with your father and even your grandfather, I believe, who was Labour, not Conservative. So an interesting whole other conversation we could have there. But just what is your job been before this? I understand you're a presenter or in the media. Tell us about what you did just before in case people are thinking, well, maybe it isn't for me. How did you prepare for this? I actually went to a very strange route of getting into politics. So I did my actual BA and MA in politics from London.

I then worked in finance for a few years. After that, I actually did work experience in BBC Wales, amazingly, and continued working in media. I then eventually hosted my own chat show for four years which did really well on a channel called ZTV. Moved on from channel to channel we're doing lifestyle shows and all sorts and whilst I was doing that I was actually keeping my hand in the pie of politics as well. I was working part-time within the Senate and traveling back and forth and I have worked previously in London Parliament alongside European Parliament too. So I have got a variety of experience and prior to just joining Senate, in fact just up until a few days ago, I've been

working for a PR firm creating government ads. So all the ads for the ethnic minority channels that you see, whether they be in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, sometimes even Farsi, so that members of the ethnic minorities are aware of the messages coming out regarding COVID. So the first one was about the vaccine, the second one was about track and trace. And the third one shall be out shortly, hopefully. This is something you've obviously wanted very badly, but you're part of a party, certainly in Wales, which isn't the majority.

You're in opposition. Do you think there could ever be a time when the Conservatives take Wales? We've seen, of course, what's been going on around the rest of the United Kingdom. Emma, I'll be very honest with you. I've learned one thing in life. Never say never. Because, you know, something I've said that many a times and I complete opposite has always happened. So you never know what the future holds for the Conservatives in Wales.

And honestly, having seen the results that have come through, we had no none of our seats lost their targets. We've increased our members within the Senate, which is absolutely fantastic, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives. And the candidates that actually stood have actually increased the number of votes that they've had in previous years. So I think it is actually a success this time round. Yes, but I mean, from the point of view, it's still Labour. That's what the Welsh people want.

And it's an important point to make. And there's something very deep there it seems and it's just how you start to look at that and make an impact. We'll come back to you in just a moment. Let's welcome Jess Blair from the Electoral Reform Society Wales. Jess, in terms of women the success of Wales

was at the forefront really in terms of gender parity and it's gone backwards. Absolutely. So in 2003 Wales broke records, essentially, having the first 50-50 gender-balanced parliament, or assembly as it was in those days. This time round, we've gone down to 26 women, which is a sliding backwards a little bit

on where we ended the last Senate term. And it's a result, I think, of female incumbents standing down and male-only races largely in those seats. It's a real shame. And so that's the explanation that you see. Is there a way then, for instance, does there need to be, because you've had it before, a correction to it? Or do you just think we're now at a stage where it will even out again? Or do you think there has to be concerted effort?

Well, I think the reality is that the reason Wales has done relatively well in terms of gender equality, definitely not in terms of other areas of diversity, is because parties have used positive action around gender. So the Labour Party at a time Plaid Cymru also did. And with Plaid Cymru not using it anymore, we have seen that slip back. So what we need are legislative, statutory quotas in building our electoral system. That's what you want to see? Yeah, absolutely. This should be taken out of parties' hands, I think. It's really important that people in Wales see a parliament that reflects them,

and that's in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality, age. There's so many things that we can be doing to address, and I think we need to start with gender quotas to get the foundations in. Natasha what do you make of that? Is it necessary? I personally believe in a system of meritocracy. I completely accept where Jess is coming. Change needs to happen and I put my hand up and say we as politicians sitting there right now have a responsibility to do that but one thing I have seen, I've seen it on both spectrums, I've actually seen the system of meritocracy work. I know that there's a common conception that you know the parties out there just simply seem to have, you know,

white middle-aged men predominantly ruling the roost. But I have to say, things are going to take a bit of time to change. I know we live in such a diverse society, but to change the system, I'm sorry to say, does take time. I have, like I said just a second ago, sat on the other side where I have actually witnessed a system where it's been a women's first, as they call it. So regardless of what happens, a female candidate will be the first on potentially the list or as selected as a candidate. And I'm very sorry to say, and I'm not against women in this, but I sat in that panel. I sat there in front of them and I saw a female candidate and a male candidate go up against each other and hand on heart. And I mean this with all honesty under the sun the male candidate was better he genuinely spoke better he was articulate he presented

himself better but due to that particular rule he wasn't given the seat and I have to say that made me very very sad because I don't want people who are really capable to miss out on it I understand the need for diversity I completely accept it there needs to be a change but also there is I do believe that the party should be responsible for the candidates they put forward, because ultimately, they are the ones who have to support that candidate through their career. And that support is pivotal in getting them elected and ultimately ensure that their safety from a party perspective is maintained with their party as well. Jess, do you make of that a very decent male candidate

missed out? I think that male candidates have obviously had a big chance you know there were the majority of men in the Senedd currently there were last time rounds in our local government in Wales just 28% of councillors are female so I think men have had a good chance over the last few years and we see existing quotas essentially in places like the house of lords where seats are reserved for male heirs so I feel like it's not that radical of a suggestion to to say that perhaps we should put in place measures to help gender equality and diversity. No but the point I'm sort of asking is what what do you make of this specific of course we know about how the system has been stacked and continues to be stacked for the years to come, it seems. But that very specific idea that you are going to get potentially at times a worse candidate.

I think we need to look at it in the context that often there are massive barriers to women standing. So we did some work a couple of years ago and we spoke to women who've been candidates who just said, look, we are at a disadvantage here because, for example, this one individual had caring responsibilities and couldn't make the kind of normal processes of party selection. So I just think it has to be looked at in the round

and you'll have individual cases in kind of each respect, really. And it's just to make sure there's a level playing field, really, rather than putting women at an advantage or men at an advantage. Jess Blair from the Electoral Reform Society of Wales, and before that, Natasha Asghar on her electoral success. I asked you this right at the beginning of the programme and some fascinating messages have come in. What do you do if you have good mental health and love your child

but don't like your life as a new mother some have called this feeling maternal ambivalence and it's a feeling that remains deeply taboo kathy adams the writer and travel editor at the independent decided to break it and talk about how 13 months on from the birth of her son she doesn't like the job of parenting and how much she misses her whole old life she joins me now along with Amy Brown, a professor of child public health at Swansea University, who specialises in maternal and child health. Cathy, I'll come to you first. How did you feel putting this down on paper? Hi, Emma. Well, yeah, thanks so much for having me. I think it's a really important topic that we need to speak about because there's a very long way between for me post-natal depression and

being okay and I've really struggled over the past 13 months to give kind of shape and really put my experience into words which I mean as you know a journalist it's it's quite an unusual feeling because I can normally find the words for absolutely everything. So it's a topic that I have touched on now and again. And the actual term maternal ambivalence, I'm really keen to sort of start using because it's one that hasn't really been used before. And it sort of describes this kind of mushrooming nothingness, I suppose. That's really the only way that I can put it. I was really, really keen to just put my ideas down on paper and really try and speak for a lot of these women that I've been

having conversations with over the past year you know my my baby um my my son he's a pandemic baby unfortunately he was born just a few days shy of the first lockdown so I think these feelings are amplified more in this situation than perhaps they normally would be which is why I've been so keen to sort of try and explore my feelings and also there is a process of catharsis I suppose because once I put those words down on paper I really had no idea last week that my article would be so well received by everybody and I've been absolutely deluged by emails tweets you know people have got in touch and instagram messages to just say that they feel very similarly because it's a taboo i mean that's the point isn't it you're either depressed or you're fine there's nothing in between it seems yeah and there will

be people listening to us thinking well i'm not sure she's okay uh but but this i this no but you know in all seriousness are you you know are you okay will be the thought going through some people's minds other people who've already got in touch who who've now got actually older children there's a particular email read if i've got time have said this is exactly how they felt and they couldn't say it to anybody tell me what you mean by you love your son but you don't like the job i mean you put it a lot better than i think i could have put it to be honest um it really goes back to when I gave birth I just felt that well I mean I felt nothing I wasn't happy I wasn't sad it was just this kind of big yawning chasm of sort of emotionless I suppose I I really couldn't put into words how I felt about my son he was as strange as me I absolutely hated this new reality

you know I was tethered to him sort of 24-7, breastfeeding, sleepless nights. I mean, you know how it is kind of in the early days. And I couldn't help feeling where on earth is that kind of gorgeous, you know, wistful look at motherhood in the early days. People call it a love bubble. People say it should be the best weeks of your life. And I just felt so completely distant from that. You know, if somebody gave me the opportunity to walk out of the door and never come back, I would have taken it gladly. So I think after those, you know, the horrors of the early months, which thankfully are over fairly quickly, once they start sleeping, although actually last night, tidal waves of resentment for my son who didn't sleep between 12 and 3.

What was he doing at 2am wanting to play anyway but the point is as you do write it's definitely changed but you still feel a lot of resentment I do yes and unfortunately I don't know whether a lot of that is bound up with Covid and having my baby right at the beginning of the pandemic, I get the feeling that I probably would have felt like this anyway. And even now I can sort of rationalise my feelings a bit better because I can look at him and go, OK, I mean, obviously, I don't need to say that I love my son. Of course I do. I'm very happy that he's part of my family.

But there are times, you know, running underneath all this that I just think, should I become a mother? I don't particularly I become a mother I don't particularly enjoy being a mother you know I'm I'm still kind of appalled just how awful motherhood can be you know whether it's picking things off off my kitchen floor I've got Cheerios all over my kitchen floor even now you know wiping things it's sort of organizing reorganizing my entire life and my identity around around him. And I just found that monstrous in the early days.

I mean, even still, I think, is it all worth it? And that is the payback, isn't it? That's what we're always told. That's what women are told from a very young age. And motherhood has been lifted to this kind of mythical status almost that it's going to be awful. You're going to have sleepless nights. You're going to be changing a lot of nappies. But it's all going to be worth it because you're going to love your baby from the get-go.

And that just did not happen for me. And I feel, yeah, very, very resentful. And it's coming, I'd say now, I almost sort of enjoy feeling that, which sounds crackers. But it sort of means that I can look at my son and deal with him on a kind of human to human level by admitting how bad things can be. I can also see how good things can be as well. And I think that's really important. I know people have written or tried to write about that before to try and explain how it could even make you better at the role in some ways. Amy Brown, you're a professor who could help us here. Is this something that you just get used to? And perhaps is it worse for women today who've gone longer without children at times and lived

freer lives, the freest lives we've lived? I think it's probably always been around, but women have more of a power and space to talk about it. But I certainly think it's probably always been around, but women have more of a power and space to talk about it. But I certainly think it's tougher when you have a baby later in life. It's tougher when you've already had that freedom and money and you know what you're missing out on. So I think it can be a lot more challenging. And as Cathy says, COVID has completely exacerbated all of this because it's made mothering even more intense. I think the way we're mothering now also is very different to how we would have mothered years ago. So research has shown just how isolated new mothers are these days. We haven't got that connected community around us.

We weren't designed to be the one who is always holding the baby. And we have never mothered so intensively as we do now. Women 50, 100 years ago weren't told that everything that they do with their baby is so important for their future lives. So they weren't guilt tripped and pressured in the same way, which makes it even more challenging. Well, women 100 years ago weren't trying to make it work with a job as well in quite the same way. A few may have been, you know, trying and had to, but it wasn't the absolute norm, was it? Absolutely. So many women are now juggling both roles, but they're never given the opportunity to step back from mothering in the same way. When you go back to work, mothers still

carry that mental load and practical load of caring for their baby and the housework in a way that working fathers don't do to the same extent research has shown a huge difference in load between a working mother when you add everything up and a working father so kathy what you're feeling you're not alone and i think you've learned that from writing it we could do an entire episode of Women's Hour on this. Perhaps we will. Perhaps we'll come back to this with so many responses coming in. Thank you for talking about it and sharing it and coming on,

talking about it's even more different than writing about it. Cathy Adams and Amy Brown, the Professor of Child Public Health at Swansea University. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Before you go, can I quickly tell you about Tricky, BBC Radio 4's discussion podcast that's back for another series.

I'm Miles, one of the producers. We put four people in a room face to face. There's no social media to hide behind or presenter to get in the way. Tricky is all about honest opinions on subjects that our guests really care about. Like at what age should you be able to vote? I think if you were to strip the vote from anyone, I'd strip it from older people. Like forget this like stewardship thing. Why do we need to strip it from anyone? We don't need to strip it from anyone. I never brought that into the conversation. What I'm saying is but if we were going to strip it from anyone

it wouldn't be people that are under 25. So expect strong feelings in adult subjects. Everything from living with HIV to surviving sexual assault. Discover more conversations like this by searching for Tricky on BBC Sounds. covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.