Woman's Hour - Moon mission, Miscarriages, Romania's Eurovision entry

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Christina Koch is ready to make history. She is one of the four astronauts of Artemis 2 which is set to head around the Moon in the next few days. During her career as a Nasa astronaut, she has spent more than 300 days aboard the International Space Station, and she was part of the first all-woman spacewalk with Jessica Meir. This mission will take her and her crewmates on a 10-day journey, further into space than any humans have ever gone. Joining Krupa Padhy to talk more about Christina and the importance of having women in space, is planetary and space scientist Professor Caroline Smith, Chair of the European Space Agency Human Spaceflight and Exploration Science Advisory Committee and also Head of Collections at the Natural History Museum, and Natasha Carr, PhD researcher at the University of Leicester, who is researching planetary sciences and space instrumentation. Millions of voters will head to the polls on Thursday 7 May for the biggest set of elections since the 2024 general election. Today a group of organisations, including the Electoral Commission, are calling for the elections to be free from abuse. The Commission’s most recent research, following the 2025 local elections, found that 61% of respondents experienced harassment or security threats during the campaign and previous research found that respondents who were women were twice as likely to report serious abuse and those from ethnic minorities were three times as likely. To discuss the impact of this, Krupa is joined by Niki Nixon, Director of Communications and External Affairs at the Electoral Commission, and Hannah Perkin, a Liberal Democrat councillor on Faversham Town Council in Kent. According to the NHS, one in eight known pregnancies end in miscarriage. For some women, they will experience more than one miscarriage, and for those who have more than three, then this is known as 'recurrent miscarriage', which affects around one in 100 women. It is a hugely devastating experience for those going through it, and is one that is often underrepresented on screen. A new BBC drama, Babies, aims to bring this issue in to the light, as it follows a young couple on their journey to parenthood. Siobhán Cullen plays Lisa and she tells Krupa about playing the role. They are joined by Zoe Clark-Coates, CEO of the baby loss charity The Mariposa Trust.The countdown to May's Eurovision song contest in Austria is on. As critics and fans analyse all 35 competing entries, it's Romania's song that is attracting a lot of attention. Choke Me is performed by Alexandra Căpitănescu and is facing criticism from sexual violence campaigners. The song repeats the phrase ‘choke me’ around 30 times in three minutes, raising concerns that it glamorises strangulation, a practice linked to brain injury and even death. Alexandra Căpitănescu has defended the track, saying the lyrics refer to the feeling of being overwhelmed by emotion and ‘being suffocated by self-doubt’. Krupa hears from Dr. Catherine White, Medical Director for the Institute for Addressing Strangulation, and Lisa-Jayne Lewis, Broadcaster and Commentator specialising in the Eurovision Song Contest.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you for being with us.

On the programme this morning, we are going to be talking about babies, a new six-part BBC drama following a couple in their 30s, Lisa and Stephen. Together, they are navigating the emotional complexities of pregnancy loss and the strain it places on their relationship, but also the impact it has on other relationships with friends, with family. Chavonne Cullen, who plays Lisa, will join us. And this is what we want to hear from you on. How has miscarriage and baby loss changed your relationships?

Maybe you've a friend you've grown apart from. Maybe a parent who opened up to you about their experience after seeing your struggles. Maybe it led to a new closeness with your partner. Or maybe you were never able to return to what the relationship was prior to your loss. You can text the program. our number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media, you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour.

You can email us through our website. And of course, you can send us a WhatsApp or audio note using the number 0300-144. Also, it is a rare year when there isn't some kind of controversy around the Eurovision song contest, often political, but also this time the lyrics. we will be hearing about Romania's 2026 Eurovision entry called Chokeme and why sexual violence campaigners are concerned. And we'll speak to one of them. Also, we are a few weeks away from the May elections,

the biggest since the 2024 general election. We will learn why campaigners are calling for these elections to be free of abuse and intimidation. A reminder of that number should you wish to get in touch on any of the stories that you hear throughout the programme, it's 84844. But first, Christina Cook is ready to make history. Cook is one of the four astronauts of Artemis II, which is set to head around the moon. During her career as a NASA astronaut, she has spent more than 300 days aboard the International Space Station, and she was part of the first all-woman spacewalk with Jessica Mayer.

Christina joined us here on Women's Hour back in 2023, and she told us all about that incredible moment. It was awesome to do a spacewalk with another woman and to realize that that was a the first time collectively, we have done that, which is amazing. And to be part of it was even more amazing. But what people don't know was that spacewalk was actually not planned. Jessica and I did it because something unexpectedly broke. And we had to design a spacewalk with the teams on the ground in the course of a week. Normally, spacewalks take years to develop. They are choreographed down to the minutia. That was actually the most awesome part. When we opened that hatch, Two women were outside the space station on a spacewalk,

and we knew that we had gotten there because we worked together to figure something out unexpectedly. That moment was truly awesome. Truly awesome. And no doubt she's got a number of more awesome moments ahead of her this week. The mission will take her and her crewmates, Reed Wiseman, Victor Glover, and Jeremy Hansen, on a 10-day journey deep into space,

deeper than any humans have ever gone. To discuss, I am joined now by planetary and space scientist, Professor Caroline Smith, who is the chair of the European Space Agency, Human Space Flight and Exploration Science Advisory Committee, and Head of Collections at the National History Museum and also by Natasha Carr, PhD researcher at the University of Leicester researching planetary sciences and space instrumentation. Welcome to you both. Hello. Caroline, I'll start with you. What does it mean for space exploration that Christina Cook will be the first woman?

I think this is an absolutely fantastic mission, full stop, but the fact that Christina is going to be a part of this history-making mission is absolutely fantastic. She's going to be the first woman to visit the moon. Now, this mission, Artemis II, is not landing on the moon. It's going to go to the moon, travel around the back side of the moon, the far side of the moon and return to Earth. But Christina, as you mentioned in the introduction, is a highly experienced NASA astronaut with amazing science and engineering background.

and I can't think of a better female role model for this Artemis II mission. I think it's wonderful. Well, let's learn more about her. Natasha, you were smiling throughout that clip that we just played there from Christina. What do you know about her? Yeah, she is an engineer. She's an electrical engineer. And actually before she was an astronaut, she developed space instrumentation.

And as a woman who does the exact same job, it's a huge role model to have, and especially for young women. Yeah, she was part of the all-female spacewalk, spent the longest spaceflight by a woman, 328 days on the ISS. And she is going to be the first woman beyond low Earth orbit. It's very exciting. Very exciting. I'm also going to throw in that you have the most epic backdrop there on your Zoom screen. I mean, it is just for our listeners, just for our listeners, it is the solar system.

It is speckles of stars throughout and you are glowing as well. Caroline, when it comes to the myths around why it's taken so long for women to get this close to the moon, just talk us through some of them, because really there are no, as I understand it, training differences in these missions when it comes to gender? No, absolutely none. I mean, I think we can look back to the start of the space race sort of in the 50s and 60s when women's places were very much still seen to be in the home. I mean, it wasn't until actually the 1980s when NASA had their first female astronauts to actually launch in space suppositions. So the first woman in space was Valentina Toshova from the former Soviet Union. That was in the 1960s.

But actually, what we are now seeing is that women are much more joining the astronaut cause of NASA and ESA. Women have more than proven themselves to be capable astronauts. And again, in that wonderful interview you had with Christina, where she was. explaining about that sort of emergency spacewalk that she had to do with her colleague. She's quite right. You know, those spacewalks are planned to the absolute nth degree. And so doing that within a week was absolutely fantastic. So I think it really goes to show that actually women make just as good astronauts as the male

astronauts. I mean, dare I say, I would say even better because we're very good at things like multitasking and thinking on our feet. So, yeah, no, there's absolutely no difference in the training that the female astronauts receive compared with the male astronauts. As I said, they're as good, if not better, I think, than the male astronauts. But very specifically, Caroline, there have been those myths around how the female body might take to being in space as well, haven't they? Oh, yeah. I mean, there was various things about, you know, it would affect women's reproductive systems and things like that.

I mean, I think there's been enough missions involving female astronauts that's been shown that the bodily response is no difference to a male astronaut's response. I should say that there are lots of furs on this spacecraft, the first black person, the first non-American, the first woman, and the astronaut spoke at a press conference yesterday where Christina Cook was asked about what she thought about all these different fests. It is something to celebrate a bunch of firsts. That's definitely not necessarily telling the whole story.

And it's also not about celebrating any one individual. If there is something to celebrate, it's that we are at a time when everyone who has a dream gets to work equally hard to achieve that dream. And we're at a time where we've recognized the importance of if we are not going for all and by all, we aren't truly answering all of humanity's call to explore. That to me is what's worth celebrating. Christina, they're echoing some of what Caroline just shared with us as well. Natasha, for you personally, how significant a moment is it that there is a woman on board? Yeah, I think three-year-old me would be as excited as 25-year-old me. So, yeah, it's very exciting to see someone who looks like me, who is doing the job that I want to do.

I think it's really important that not just females, but also males, teachers, parents, carers, make sure that they show this to their children, make sure that this is really well-known in schools and at home, because this could be a moment that makes people realise that they want to do this as a job. And I think working in space is the best possible job on and off the planet. Caroline, as someone who has kept across monitored, been involved in so many space missions yourself, when you look at the value that Christina will add to this, what do you think that will mean both scientifically but also interpersonally having a woman on board? Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, it's, you know, as Natasha's very, very wonderfully said, you know, the fact that she's, she's such a skilled engineer and scientist herself, Christina, she's a great role model for young women, but also, you know, the wider population. She's had a very successful career. The actual mission itself, even though it's not landing on the moon, it's going to be doing a lot of preparatory experiments ready for human missions to actually land on the moon. So there's going to be things involving, say, for example, radiation studies in deep space. But I think, you know, one of the things that the space agencies do when they are choosing astronauts or people to become astronauts, then obviously they're going through those training, they're seeing how those interpersonal skills work and how the team dynamics work. So the Artemis II mission has been working together for several years now to prepare for this mission, the crew for that mission. And so I'm assuming I know that the NASA psychologists and the NASA astronaut trainers

will have put that crew together to make sure that those interpersonal skills and those relationships are as perfect as possible. Because, you know, there is risk inherent with space exploration missions. And so you always have to make sure that you've got a crew that can work together, can communicate and can deal with any non-nominal, as we would say. So unexpected situations that may arise and hopefully there won't. It will go perfectly textbook. Looking more broadly at women in the space industry, the European, Space Agency also has three UK astronauts attached to them, two of them, women, as I understand it. Tell us about that, Caroline.

Yeah, so we've actually got three, as you say, we've got three UK astronauts within the ESA astronaut program at the moment. So we have Rose Marie Coogan, who's what's called a career astronaut. And then we have John McFaul and Megan Christian, who are what we call reserve astronauts. And we really hope that Rose will get a mission either to the International Space Station, or potentially even to the moon in the coming year. So that's very exciting that we have three UK astronauts currently associated with the ESA astronaut programme. So good UK involvement there

and we keep our fingers crossed that they all get a mission. I'm returning back to this specific mission, Natasha, what are the exact plans for the mission? Because they aren't landing on the moon, as Caroline pointed out as well. No, so this is a little bit like before Apollo 11. They did a few missions that were leading up to it. There has to be so many tests done on every single piece of equipment.

The rocket itself and the launch, obviously Artemis wandered that a couple of years ago. Oh, we've lost your connection there. We seem to have lost your sound. Can you hear us, Natasha? No, you can't. I might get you, Caroline, to pick up on those further details about the mission, the fact that they aren't landing on the moon. No, that's right.

So the mission, the launch window, so that's the time when the mission can actually launch from the Kennedy Space Center to the moon, actually is from the 1st of April to the 6th of April. And every day in that time, there's a two-hour window where the mission can successfully launch. And the plan is that the mission will take about 10 days. They'll spend the first sort of couple of days in Earth orbit, just testing everything.

You know, Natasha was saying that they've got to make sure that everything's working properly, that all of the safety systems are working properly, all the systems that supply electricity, fuel, oxygen, water, all of those things that the astronauts are going to need to survive the mission to the moon are working. They will then take about four days to get to the moon.

They will go around the back of the moon, almost using the moon as a sort of slingshot and then another four days to return safely to Earth. How exciting. 10 days into, you know, it's super exciting. And this is, you know, this is the deepest that humans will have traveled into space. and it's a really important strategic mission to show that we can return humans safely to the moon because NASA, the European Space Agency, have plans for long duration space missions to the moon,

to land on the moon, set up sort of moon bases to do exploration and engineering on the moon and actually use the moon as a stepping stone for human exploration of Mars. And Caroline, seeing as we are celebrating women and space, I should also mention that in the summer of 2018, you too received a great honour. Tell us about that. I didn't know. Sorry, I didn't know you were going to mention that. Why not?

Yes, so I was actually in the state for a friend's wedding and for a scientific meeting. And I started getting these weird text messages coming through because obviously the UK was about eight hours ahead. What on is going on here? So yes, I was very honoured to have an asteroid named after me, which I was, Not expecting at all, but it was a really, really great honour. And the asteroid is called, anything snazzy? The asteroid is called, yes, it really trips off the palm. 765, Caroline Smith.

Oh, fantastic. Well, a few people can say that they've had that honour. Congratulations. Thank you for joining us also here on Woman's Hour. Professor Caroline Smith there and also Natasha Carr from the University of Leicester. Great to have your insights. And of course, we will have full coverage of that mission as it launches in the company. days here on the BBC. Now, millions of voters will head to the polls on the 7th of May for the biggest

set of elections since the 2024 general election. Voters in Scotland and Wales will elect representatives to their national parliaments, whilst a number of local council and mayoral polls will take place in England. Today, a group of organisations, including the Electoral Commission, are calling for the elections to be free from abuse. The Commission's most recent research following the 2025 local elections found that 61% of respondents experienced harassment or security threats during the campaign. And previous research found that respondents who were women were twice as likely to report serious abuse and those from ethnic minorities were three times as likely. So what impact is this having on our democracy and can anything be done to change it?

To discuss, I'm joined now by Nikki Nixon, Director of Communications and External Affairs at the Electoral Commission, which is the independent body which oversees elections and regulates political finance in the UK. And I'm also joined by Councillor Hannah Perkin, a Liberal Democrat councillor on Favisham Town Council in Kent. Welcome to you both. Thanks very much. Hi, thank you. Nikki, I will start with you. You released a statement today alongside the Joe Cox Foundation and the National Police Chiefs Council calling for these elections to be free from abuse. Explain why. Because it has a huge impact on our democracy when people are afraid to go out and campaign. We have seen that some candidates have altered their behaviour as a result of some of the abuse that they have

experienced. So candidates are choosing, for instance, maybe not to canvas alone. They may choose not to share their views, not to talk about particular topics. And we think that has a detrimental impact on the voter. We want voters to have a really wide range of choice when they go to the polling station and we want them to hear from all of the candidates that are standing. And when we say abuse, what do we mean? There's a real range. So 61% of the abuse takes place on social media. I'm sure you can imagine what that looks like. It's people posting things that are unpleasant, personal attacks, threats even. But we do see this crossing over into real life as well, into in-person intimidation. There does seem to be a connection. So for instance, we understand that

some people are potentially abusing elected representatives so that they can film it and upload that to social media. But some candidates also have their constituency offices are targeted, their homes are targeted. It really runs the full spectrum. And I mentioned the impact on women and ethnic minorities. Just how do you understand the data? Is it still them in this latest report as you understand it receiving them most? Yes, it does seem to affect women more and candidates from an ethnic minority background three times. as much. So it's, this goes to the point about it affecting the diversity of candidates that are standing. Councillor Perkin, let me bring you into our conversation. What have been your

experiences as a local counsellor? Yeah, so I guess the levels of abuse that I have received have fluctuated over time. So I stood in the general action in 2019 and received credible awesome threats to myself and my campaign manager, which the police were really incredible in dealing with. And then during the pandemic, there was lots of abuse about governmental involvement in the pandemic. Post that, it has kind of gone up and down, but the last year or so has really been beyond anything that I've experienced before.

In what way? Well, we recently had a meeting at Swaleboro Council, where I'm a council where I'm a where one of our counsellors had an egg thrown at them, others were spat at, and the levels of personal abuse were just really awful. I've had videos made about me saying that I'm satanic. There have been comments where people have said that I should be jumped after a meeting, that I'm disgusting. I've had AI images made of me and fake news articles kind of aimed specifically at intimidating me. So it's been pretty grim at the moment. I completely agree that the majority of that is online,

but unfortunately we have had some quite significant crossovers between online abuse and that kind of reaching our kind of personal lives now as well. I mean, it is horrific the examples that you've just shared there. Can I ask you personally how it's left you feeling? Yeah, so I've got a pretty fixed skin. I used to work in hospitality and bars and I'm used to dealing with, unfortunately, with the kind of spikier end of that. But it has definitely changed the way that I behave. I have spent some time where I haven't wanted to be in the town that I represent on my own, which is really sad because actually it's a really warm and wonderful community.

I have a panic alarm in my bag now. I just have to be a little bit more careful and it is a real shame that that is the case. When you listen to Hannah there talking about her experiences, Nikki, you must be thinking about consequences. I mean, what are the consequences? Are there only consequences for people who carry out this kind of abuse? For the perpetrators, yes, there are often this abuse is criminal.

If it's threatening behaviour, that is definitely a matter for the police. and there is now online, there's a series of guidance, there are videos, there are explainers for people who want to be candidates on how they can protect themselves. So that can all be found online for any candidates that are interested. Our advice is to contact the police if it does cross that line. At a higher government level, there is the representation of the People's Bill going through Parliament at the moment.

Just explain to us what that is and what impact it would have. Yep, so that's new legislation that's going through Parliament at the moment. there are two changes to the will affect candidate safety there. One, we're really pleased to see that they are removing the requirement for candidates' home addresses to be published. The other thing they're doing is introducing a statutory aggravating factor in sentencing for election-related offences. And the idea here is to deter people from carrying out this behaviour.

And actually, I think this is really important we would like to see others, potentially also social media platforms, take the same approach where, all online threats or abuse have a massive impact on the individual but there is this wider impact on democracy that really needs to be taken seriously. Hannah, does any of that action that Nikki's highlighted reassure you?

Yeah, I think it does. I think there's been a recognition quite recently that this is becoming unsustainable for lots of women and for people from ethnic minority backgrounds as well. And as has been said, you know, I meet incredible women all the time who would really add something really special to council chambers and they're being put off the idea of standing. And when women are put off from standing, it not only weakens our kind of local decision making,

but it also removes our voices from really important conversations. And we know that women rely on council services in a disproportionate way. And so it's really important that women are there shaping the kind of future of future decisions. decisions in local government and if they're not there then that damages all of us really. Nikki, we've been focusing for the time being on the safety of local politicians, but let's also look at MPs as well because it will be 10 years in June since the murder of Joe Cox, the MP. And this is an issue that we are still seeing this weekend, the Labour MP for Luton North, Sarah Owen, who is also the chair of the Women's Uniquities Select

Committee has said that she is suspending face-to-face meetings with constituents following three security incidents in the last three weeks. Why has so little changed? Why has so little changed? Well, it's a great question. I think there is lots happening at the moment to try and address this question. So after every election, we carry out research to understand the experiences of candidates. And as we do that, we're able to track trends. We're able to see who is most affected. And then we're able to make recommendations. And we are starting to see change. So I've mentioned the things that are in the bill that's going through Parliament. There's also a new centralised policing unit that has been set up specifically to look at individuals who are targeting elected officials. So I think we are starting to see some changes, but it's a big problem and it involves a lot of different bodies need to act together in order to tackle it.

And Hannah, you entered politics shortly after Joe Cox's death. Did it give you pause? I think it definitely did. But, you know, Joe Cox said we have more in common than divides us. And I think that still remains the case. I think most people are good and they want good things for their communities. And we need to encourage more people to go into local government in my view. It's really rewarding and an incredible experience.

You're able to kind of help people in a really kind of day-to-day way and supporting them with things that might seem small but make real. packs in their lives, like, you know, making playgrounds more accessible or helping your local environment or supporting people with their housing and the kind of spiraling cost of day-to-day life. So I think it's important to consider your own safety. And I think that that's a sad representation of where we are at the moment. But I wouldn't change being in local government. I think it's important. And I think we should do all we can to make it as safe as possible for everybody to be involved in it.

In a month where there's been so much attention on the role of social media and its impact on well-being, it feels only right to ask you more. I mean, you did touch on it there, Nikki, about legislation and social media, but more about the role that social media should be playing here in politics. Because in many ways, it does bridge that gap, doesn't it, between politicians and their constituents? Absolutely. It's a really important tool. It's a great way for parties, for campaigners, for candidates, for campaigns, for candidates. to reach voters. But yes, we do think that platforms need to do more. They need to be acting swiftly to take down abusive content. And there needs to be a sort of standard approach so that people who are experiencing that abuse know what they can expect from platforms. So yes, we would like to see the government introduce a duty on social media companies. And for you, Hannah,

after receiving so much abuse online, did you ever think about just coming offline entire or did you think it would be more of a hindrance not to have that connection with the people that you represent? Yeah, I've come off of certain platforms, so I'm not on a particular platform where I just didn't find it helpful for my residents, but it took too much of a toll on my personal mental health to remain there. But on another one, I really get a lot of casework from my interactions with people there. So I think overall it's helpful. You do get. get a lot of abuse on there and you do have to unfortunately have a bit of a thick skin or a good team that will support you through kind of dealing with it.

But on the flip side of that, it's a really powerful way of communicating with residents and that's a really important part of any local government representatives' role is to be accessible to people and I think that that's appreciated. And Hannah, when you reflect upon all that you have gone through in recent years, Have there ever been moments where you've thought about giving up and what keeps you going? We have been times where I've thought about giving up. But overall, I think, you know, you do have the opportunity to do really good things. And also, it's a really powerful way of giving back to your community.

So I really value the ability to be able to do that. Also, I don't want people who feel like it's okay to intimidate me to feel. feel like they've won and pushed me out of politics. I'm quite a stubborn individual. So I will do everything I can to make sure that I kind of open a door for other people to be safely involved in politics and also campaign for more safety for everyone in government. Well, thank you for sharing your story with us. Councillor Hannah Perkin there and Nikki Nixon, very good to have your insights as well. You can see all information about what elections are happening where you are on our BBC website as well. And full coverage.

will be there. You can get in touch on any of the stories that you hear. It's 84844 should you wish to do that. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just, just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, according to the NHS, one in eight known pregnancies end in miscarriage. And for some women, they will experience more than one miscarriage. And for those who have had more than three, this is known as recurrent miscarriage, which impacts around one in 100 women. It is a hugely devastating experience for those going through it and is often one that is underrepresented on screen and across the media.

A new BBC drama aims to bring this issue into the light as it follows a young couple on their journey to parenthood. Chauvonne Cullen plays Lisa and Papa Esiadu plays her partner, Stephen. Chauvonne joins me now, also joined by Zoe Clark Coates, CEO of the Baby Losh Charity, the Mariposa Trust. Welcome to you both. Hi, thanks for having me. I'll start with you. You play Lisa, married to her new husband, Stephen. They are very much in love. They decide to start trying for a baby. Things don't go to plan. We don't want to give away spoilers, of course. But central to this series is the impact that multiple miscarriages have on their marriage and their emotional experience. What drew you to playing this character?

I think, well, first and foremost, Stefan's script drew me to the project. He wrote a script that was, actually reading it was quite a profound thing for me. I'd never really felt like I'd seen anything that kind of represented this age. I'm in my 30s and all that comes with it, be it, you know, the idea of parenthood, but also how your friendships can change and develop at this age, your relationship with your parents as they age. And yes, of course, the themes of, you know, parenthood and baby loss at a time when I feel like it's happening to quite a lot of women in my life around me,

really kind of felt like it was an important thing to be involved in. It will resonate with so many. You mentioned the impact from relationships and watching relationships change. We have been asking our listeners to send in their experiences on this. This message says, When my aunt opened up about her past miscarriages, it brought us closer. And I feel a great love and empathy for her as her nephew.

Although the experience, we've just jumped across, Although the experience of losing a baby is incredibly painful, talking about it can bring families closer. Thank you for your message. And this one says miscarriage changed everything and affected nearly every relationship going. I felt distance from some members of my family. It just didn't register with some people,

but suddenly became closer to people I thought I never would be able to because they shared the same experiences. I'm sure we'll receive more messages with a similar point throughout this conversation as well. Chauvin, as you mentioned, there are so many layers to experiencing a loss like this. And this series seems to capture so many of those moments. Very precisely from waiting for that line in the pregnancy test, or waiting for a heartbeat when you go for a scan.

How did you prepare for playing a character experiencing this kind of loss? Well, again, with Stefan's blueprint as our script, I mean, this isn't an autobiographical show for Stefan, but he has extensive experience in this topic. I also have, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of women in my life who were so generous enough to share their very personal stories with me. And so, yeah, a combination of just using kind of that script as your Bible and then also kind of delving into the kind of the insights that I can get from the people who've gone through it. That kind of became, yeah, I suppose, yeah, my guidebook for me. Zoe, let's bring you into this conversation.

You yourself have experienced miscarriages. I mean, how important are shows such as babies to highlight what couples are going through? They're so important. I think what most people will tell you is that you feel very isolated and alone when going through the heartbreak of losing your longed-for baby.

And so often you feel like you're the only person in the world who's going through it. I know I certainly felt like that and I was already a grief therapist. I knew all about baby loss, but still walking through it myself, I did feel like I was going through something really unique, and it's so far from the case,

because up to one in four, babies are lost through miscarriage. It's something that so many people go through over 30 million people globally each year. The one thing we shouldn't feel like is that we're alone. It's interesting you say that this could help with women and men, of course, feeling less isolated, less alone. For those who have come through this and those who are going through this, it is such a real and vivid depiction of the experience.

It will also be a difficult watch, won't it, Zoe? Yeah, absolutely. But I think if you speak to most people who have gone through baby loss, they don't want the topic to not be discussed. This is something that has changed their lives forever. And actually, the more awareness that is brought into society, the better it is because so often people get treated like it's a medical incident that in a few weeks you'll just be over it. And that's just so far from the truth. You're changed forever on the other side of losing a baby.

And the more we can discuss this topic and bring it into things like this amazing show, the better because people will become better educated on the subject. One listener has got in touch to say, sending so much love to my daughter, who has had difficulty with getting pregnant. She is a doctor herself, and she is so caring and hardworking. The waiting game is extremely hard for all her family and friends, as well as her wonderful supportive husband. And I'm happy the listener has mentioned husbands,

because, Chauvonne, you, when you're on screen husband, Stephen, have a beautiful connection. It's really tested by the situation that you find yourselves in. But we also see, through Stephen, how men process, grief and trauma like this. Just explain how Lister and Stephen deal with the situation in different ways. I think what's so beautiful about Stephen and Lisa's relationship is they're both

so clearly mad about each other and up until this point they have, it's all gone, it's all gone perfectly for them. They've perhaps naively kind of bumped their way through life, everything falling into place. And I think for so many of us, we naively expect that when the time is right, you know, one will just fall pregnant.

And that's unfortunately not a privilege that most of us are, or a lot of us are granted. So when we kind of see them put under this strain, you know, this is an unprecedented event for them. They don't have, you know, the goalposts aren't laid out for them. They don't know how best to deal with it. And they both unfortunately have kind of different coping mechanisms. Stephen at first just is

you know he's very much of the stay positive head up all will be well and Lisa can bottle things up and lash out and their different coping mechanisms often results in them becoming more isolated from the only person really that knows what they're going through

and they end up then on their own little islands and the show sort of navigates we track them as they sort of navigate that grief both separately and together. Zoe, is this something that you have seen through your work as a grief counsellor the way men and women handle baby loss differently? Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of the big things we try and focus on as an international charity too.

The fact that baby loss often doesn't just affect one person. It's both parties and the extended family too. But men definitely process grief very differently to women. and that doesn't mean that they're not grieving when they're not necessarily showing what they're going through and I think this is where men get forgotten from this conversation the fact that they need as much support as the woman gets and again I think because going back to this being treated

very much like a medical incident because the woman is carrying the child that's why the man is often forgotten from the conversation they will often be asked by family and friends, how is she doing? People forget to say, how are you doing? And this is one of the reasons that marriages and relationships get affected. It's estimated that around 70% of relationships will break down within five years of a baby loss. And that's because support isn't offered to the couple. And the other breakdowns are often in friendships as well.

And in Shavon, the program looks at this as well. The impact baby loss can have on adult friendships as well, especially when one party has children or is pregnant as well. Explain how that plays out. Well, I think, I mean, at the heart of it, it's grief. It's grief is an extremely private thing. And I think for those around someone who's grieving, it's the fear perhaps of saying the wrong thing,

which can often lead to not talking about it at all, which again sort of cements that feeling of isolation for the person going through it. and of course when you're at an age where everyone around you seems to be it's all smooth sailing for them and they might be already parents or getting pregnant very easily

it can yeah further alienate that those and that's I think what we see with Lisa and Stephen in our show is it's happening for everyone around them and for them that seems to be a real struggle and with that I think comes a sense of shame as well and you know a feeling

of blame and there's something that we're doing wrong. So yeah, it just permeates through everything. I think it can take over one's life or certainly Lisa and Stevens, yeah. Sorry, how did that dynamic work for you in terms of relationships? Did relationships change? Yeah, absolutely. I think I was very blessed in the fact that I'm married to my soulmate. So me and my husband felt like we were on the same page, which is so helpful.

We were able to talk the whole time. But it definitely altered friendships. I think those that recognised and acknowledged what we were going through were the ones who stood by our side and held our hands and knew that they couldn't make it better. There was nothing they could say that would take away the pain. We just needed them to sit with us and recognise what we were going through. But those who felt that it was an insignificant life event

and that we should just move on and not talk about it, that definitely changed those friendships. and we lost a couple of friends along the way. And I think what we see as an organisation very commonly is the fact that people aren't just grieving their baby. They're grieving all of those relationships that they're losing. And sometimes it's close family members. Sometimes it's just friends. But all of them are losses.

And I will regularly say baby loss is the first domino that goes over. And there's so many other things that fall in people's lives. after losing a child. People's employment often gets affected. Their relationships get affected. It feels like one thing after the other, all while the world expects you to just return to the pre-loss you, which just isn't possible.

Darren has message to say, my wife has had two baby losses. They are absolutely devastating. For the fathers, there is a real lack of support and we are left to muddle through. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, Darren. You've both mentioned this fear of not knowing what to say that people just don't know what to say.

Zoe, what should people say? I mean, everyone's experience is different, but what would your advice be to people who are nervous? And because they're nervous, they actually end up saying nothing, which can often be worse. Yeah, and I think it's a very human trait to panic about saying the wrong thing

just in case you make it worse for that person. And obviously, when you've got that person broken in front of you, the last thing you want to do is make it worse. But what I'd encourage everyone to do is just, to educate yourself on the subject of loss because the more you know about the subject, the less you fear saying something wrong. And then accept that you can't make it better. There is nothing you can do to remove this pain that they're going through. But what you can do is sit with them. I always say, just say you'll hold the tissues for them, you'll wipe their tears, that's what they

need. And also be aware of not minimizing their loss. No sentence should start with. with at least when you're comforting somebody through grief. There's no, at least it was early in the pregnancy. At least you've got another child already. All of those things really minimise someone's experience. So sit with them, hold their hand, realize you can't make it better. Show up practically if you can as well. Take them a meal.

The last thing someone feels like is cooking. All of those sort of things make a big difference to somebody who's trying to navigate the darkest period of their life. Media representation is, of course, one way to change the conversation. We've also got more practical steps at government level. In recent years, we've had parts of the UK introduced baby loss certificates, haven't we, Zoe? I mean, what are they? And what difference has such a move made in breaking this uncomfortable silence that can sit around miscarriages?

Yeah, well, we campaigned for a certificate of baby loss to be brought in here in England for over 10 years. And we had very little support when we launched it. People didn't see the purpose. But we were really firm that this was needed, that there's no formal recognition of babies lost before 24 weeks here in the UK. And that just feels so wrong when people have lost their precious child.

I was then asked by the Health Secretary to co-chair and author the Pregnancy Loss Review on behalf of number 10. which was a national review inquiry to look at how we need to change clinical and compassionate care across the whole of the NHS and beyond. And I was told that we could include the certificates as part of that review, which was really exciting. Five and a half years' work ensued where I shadowed staff members in hospitals, spoke to thousands of families and organisations, etc.,

and we laid 73 recommendations in Parliament, all of which were accepted by government to completely overhaul the care of people who go through this significant life-changing loss. And one of those was the certificates of loss, which are now available to anybody. The exciting bit is that they're backdatable. So anybody who's lost a baby before 24 weeks in England,

whether that loss be today or 70 years ago, you can go on to the government website and now apply for a certificate. And it's about giving recognition and honouring the lives. And opening up the conversation, as this series clearly will do. Thank you so much to you both Zoe Clark Coates and Chavon Cullen. And all episodes of babies are on BBC IPlayer now. And the series airs on BBC 1 at 9pm tonight.

I will add that if you have been affected by anything, you have heard on this programme. The BBC Action Line has links to support. Shoboran Zomi, thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. And thank you to all of you who have been sending in your messages, including Pam, who says, I had a miscarriage 40 years ago this September. I still remember it so vividly, and I threatened to lose the next pregnancy. Luckily, I didn't, and it threatened, sorry, both my husband and I grieved the loss, but it was, I think, harder for him to find a space to grieve whilst he looked after me and our two-year-old. I still have my pregnancy

record card that says past products of conception. That was my baby. I'm sure the NHS are more sensitive now. Best wishes, Pam. Thank you, Pam, for sharing your story. Do keep your messages coming in. The countdown to May's Eurovision song contests in Austria is on. And as critics and fans analyze all 35 competing entries, it is Romania's song that is attracting a lot of attention. Chokeme is performed by Alexandra Capit Tunescu and is facing criticism. from sexual violence campaigners. The song repeats the phrase, choke me around 30 times in three minutes,

raising concerns that it glamorizes strangulation, a practice linked to brain injury and even death. Research from the Institute of Addressing Strangulation shows over half of under 35 have experienced sexual strangulation and nearly a third mistakenly believe it can be done safely. Alexandra Caputunescu has defended the track, saying the lyrics refer to the feeling of being overwhelmed by emotion and being suffocated by self-doubt. To discuss, I'm joined now by Dr. Catherine White, medical director for the Institute of Addressing Strangulation

and Lisa Jane Lewis, broadcaster and commentator specialising in the Eurovision Song Contest. Thanks for being with us, both of you. Good morning. Good morning. Lisa Jane, I'll start with you. Tell us more about the song. Well, you've sort of said, I guess what there is to say about it, the song is called Choke Me.

And as you said, that phrase is repeated numerous times when I saw this song come up in the pre-selection in Romania into the semi-final. And then I thought, we're going to be talking about this one. And here we are talking about it. And rightly so, I'm glad that we are talking about it. In terms of the conversation with the fans, how's it going down? Like all these things, the fans have. have their opinions on things.

And I think those that have been very vocal, mostly are saying, oh, it's fine, it's just art, it's just a song, it doesn't mean anything, or it means what she says it means. And I think that does a bit of a disservice to the actual content of the song, the lyrical content of the song. And I think it's kind of important to remember, when you look at what the Eurovision fans are saying at this point, it really is only that hardcore group of fans who,

have followed the contest forever in a day. And they don't really represent the full audience of the Eurovision Song Contest. So they are generally speaking, a group of men in their 40s and 50s who've been watching the contest for a long time. That's not to denigrate them. They're brilliant, fantastic fans of the show. But they don't represent the full fandom of Eurovision. And it's when things then come on to the Saturday night or the semi-final in Remembourg. Mania's case, that sometimes people have never had, this is the first time they'll have heard the song. So it's the fans that have seen it and heard it and are in the most part from what I can tell, seem to be saying it's fine. You can't censor everything, which I think they have a

point. You can't censor everything. But I think you also need to be responsible with broadcasters as to what you are broadcasting. Well, let's hear a bit of the song. This is a clip in the track that has been described as a new metal-inspired track. The song contains the lyrics. All I need is your love. All I want to is to choke me, choke me, choke me, choke me, born for you to control. I want you to choke me, love me, make my lungs explode.

Lisa Jane, how has Alexandra Capitunescu responded to the criticism? Yeah, so she had come out and said that the lyric is about that overwhelming feeling of motion. And to be fair, as an artist, you can say what you like about the song. It doesn't make it true. And I would say that's not true in this case. I think that's the line that her and the broadcaster in Romania have taken to be able to try and just gloss over it. We've had similar incidents in the past where artists have claimed various words mean various different things and we're taking it out of context and we're making it a big thing. We're making it something that isn't. And sometimes

that can be true. But I think in this case, actually, it's not true. As a native English speaker and as many will be who are watching the show and who hear the song, that's not what she's saying. Like, what she's telling

us she's saying is not what she's saying. The dots aren't connecting. I'll just add from her statement that she says as a songwriter, I often use symbolism to give shape to feelings that are difficult to explain directly. This song reflects the weight of certain emotional struggles and the journey of reclaiming your voice and autonomy.

And then I'll also bring you the statement from the Romanian broadcaster TRV who have said that they would like to state clearly and unequivocally that TVR, as Romania's National Public Broadcaster does not promote, encourage or normalise any form of violence. They also added that the performance has been specifically designed to visually

and narratively articulate the song's inner psychological dimension, ensuring that its meaning is understood as a metaphorical exploration of emotional tension and not as a literal or physical act. Catherine, let me bring you into the conversation here. How do you perceive the metaphor and the meaning behind this song? Well, I mean, I think I agree with everything that Lisa Jane has said, you know, the viewers will not be inside the artist's head, so don't know what, you know, their thoughts are, it's how it's perceived.

And I understand that references choke me 30 times in a song that's just a few minutes long. I feel that with great power comes great responsibility. And I don't think they are holding the responsibility. What would you like Eurovision to do? It's a shame that it comes to this, really. I understand in previous contests that's because of language that's been used, there have been changes.

And that's for language that might be deemed offensive. Whereas this is talking about an act that could kill somebody that certainly could have dire consequences, obviously not every time, but the risk is very much there. And so, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones. Offensive words may be offensive, but this is actually an act. Help us understand the dangers around choking, just how mainstream it's become amongst young people, rather.

Well, the survey that we did that we published just before Christmas involved over a fourth, thousand young people age between 16 and 34 and as you said in the introduction over half of them gave a history of strangulation of having been strangled during consensual sex and this is the issue is that a lot of people think if it's consensual it's therefore safe and that is definitely not the case and it's this normalisation you know what we've been accused of kinked shaming. I looked up the definition of kink this morning. And this has become so mainstream now that all this imagery is being projected on young people that this is what they should be doing

without them necessarily knowing the consequences both in the immediate stroke, death, and also long-term consequences. Because basically, Basically, what we're talking about is your brain being deprived of oxygen. And I think most people would think that that is not a good idea. And certainly repeated episodes of your brain being deprived of oxygen is going to cause problems. You mentioned kink, shaming. Let me just pick up on that because there has been some criticism by those who say that you, in having concerns about the lyrics, are indeed sex shaming, not you specifically,

but those you have concerns. I feel that our job, the Institute for Addressing Strangulation, is to give people the information, the right information so that they can make choices for themselves. So that's what we try to do. I don't know what's the audience for Eurovision. It's certainly a lot more than the audience for people going on IFAS website. So there's an imbalance that.

and which is why events such as Eurovision have responsibility because are they going to have a warning associated with the song about if you do this, this is the potential consequences. We don't advertise smoking anymore. There's certain restrictions on that. And nobody would question that. Well, let's put that to Lisa Jane now. I mean, what are the options here?

Have any of the broadcasters spoken out? It is the European Broadcasting Union, the EBE, who owns and organises the Eurovision Song Contest. Have we heard from them? What are their options? I haven't heard from them at all, but I don't think that that means that people haven't brought it up and it hasn't been spoken about.

It's only been a week and a bit since the heads of delegation meeting in Vienna, where they will have discussed all aspects of the show. So just because it's not been made public, It doesn't mean that there isn't a conversation happening about what to do about this, if anything, is decided. There's a reference group that oversee the Eurovision Song Contest, and that's made up of a number of different professionals from different public service broadcasters who are members of the EBU. There are a few options available to them. One is a rewrite, but I've seen the song, the video and the song lyrics have gone up on the Eurovision website

without any changes. So is it too late to do a rewrite then? It's too late to do a full rewrite, but I suspect you could just massage the lyrics slightly. There's something about that warning on the screen. That's never happened at Eurovision before, but it does provide a conversation that says, should we be advising people about that?

I'm all for artistic expression, but I'm also quite keen on keeping people safe. Thank you so much for your thoughts. So I should say that we did contact both the BBC and the EBE. The BBC, of course, will be broadcasting it here in the UK. The BBC has declined to comment and the EBU has yet to respond. My thanks to Lisa Jane Lewis and Dr. Catherine White, medical director for the Institute for Addressing Strangulation

and the Eurovision Song Contest. 2026 will take place in Vienna. The event is scheduled for two semifinals in mid-May. That's to the 12th and the 14th. And the grand final on the 16th will be available to watch over on BBC. Thank you to all of my guests this hour. There have been many of your messages coming through. Thank you. I'll not get a chance to read them more.

Please do keep the important conversation going. But that's it from the team and I. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. A group of men ran in with machetes. I'm Livy Haydock. And from BBC Sounds and BBC Radio 5 Live, this is gangster.

The story of Georgie Puck. The scene of the killing near a Chinese bookshop is being flooded with detectives. Welcome to the world of the triads. If the triads are coming out of you, you're done. Where loyalty is sworn in blood. Gangster, the story of Georgie Pye. Listen first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record.

I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.