Woman's Hour - Morris Dancing, Jacqui Oatley & Ben Bloom, Maya Foa & Andrew Mitchell MP, Bletchley veteran Betty Webb

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

Anita Rani talks to Boss Morris the all-female Morris dancing team based in Gloucester who'll be marking May Day by leading a livestreamed dance. We hear from Bletchley Park veteran Betty Webb and discuss the issue of female football commentary and whether it needs to should become more critical as the success of the game develops. Around 15 British families remain detained in North East Syria.   A new report released today by the NGO Reprieve suggests that the majority of British women there are victims of trafficking, based on evidence that these women were all subjected to sexual and other forms of exploitation, and were either transported to Syria as children; coerced into travelling to Syria; or kept and moved within Syria against their will. Andrew Mitchell MP and Maya Foa from Reprieve discuss the report.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineers: John Boland and Bob Nettles.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. This time! This time! Morning, it's Friday. Are you dancing? Well, you will be shortly. It's May Day tomorrow and we are Morris dancing and finding out the connection between the 1st of May and this folk tradition. So hankies or dishcloths or whatever you can grab at the ready. As well as getting you on your feet, we're also going to be amazed by Betty Webb.

Betty worked at Bletchley Park during World War II and she also worked at the Pentagon. Well, she's now 98 and is going to talk to us about her experience and no doubt fill us with inspiration and admiration. And how many of you enjoy watching women's football? And what do you think about the commentary? Do you find it's different to the male game? Is it not critical as much?

Is that a problem? Some people think it is. Sports columnist Ben Bloom, for one, he thinks it's nauseating. We'll be getting him to explain what he means shortly. And we'd love for you to get in touch about anything you hear on the programme today. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider

for exact costs. And of course, you can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Now, around 15 British families remain detained in northeast Syria. Today, a new report by the NGO Reprieve suggests that the majority of British women there are victims of trafficking, based on evidence that these women were all subjected to sexual and other forms of exploitation and were either transported to Syria as children, coerced into travelling to Syria, or kept and moved within Syria against their will. Some of these women were as young as 12 when they were trafficked. To discuss this, I'm joined by Maya Foa, Executive Director of

Reprieve, and Andrew Mitchell MP, co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on trafficked Britons in Syria, a cross-party grouping of MPs and peers. Good morning to you both. Maya, let me come to you first, because you've just returned from a camp in Syria. You got unprecedented levels of access. Who did you speak to there? And what's the situation in the camps? Thank you. Yes, so I just got back, I met with a lot of our British clients, a lot of the families who, as you just described, were victims of trafficking and taken from Britain to Syria. But I also met with many other women from many other countries and was really, even with the knowledge I had of the situation of the families detailed in the report, I was shocked to hear these repeated

stories, one after the other, of systemic trafficking and abuse. It was an eye-opener for me and I hope will be an eye-opener also for governments who are reading the report and listening to this programme. Could you tell us some of the stories that you heard from women? A lot of people listening, this might be the first time they're even considering something like this. For them, these are young women who left of their own free will to join terrorist organisations. When you say they were trafficked, what kind of stories were they telling you? Absolutely. There are a couple of different types of stories. One of them, a woman told me she was from a European country and I'm preserving anonymity just for her safety. Of course.

I was very young. She was a teenager when she married a man who was older than her. He was extremely abusive. She actually showed me some of the marks of the abuse, which she still has. He left her when she was pregnant, and she's still a teenager, said that she should meet him in Turkey. She agreed to meet him in Turkey. She wanted to make this marriage work. In Turkey, he wasn't there. And she was met by men who said that they were friends of his. And they said, no, no, we'll take you to him. We'll take you to him. And this woman sat before me crying as she described how these first men said, he's over here. And she went with them. And then the next set of men said, no, no, you just have to get into the car over here took her somewhere else and then pointed to a car and said your husband's in that car uh she didn't speak the language she was in a foreign country she was pregnant she was a teenager she went to the car her husband wasn't in the car and this car transported her across the border into into Syria long journeys which she described, and obviously terrified. When she ultimately did meet this husband of hers, he said, well, I couldn't tell you where I was taking you. Otherwise,

you would never agree to come. So that's just one example of the kind of, that's the deceit example. Other people were forced through, you know, exploitation and coercion. You know, these were very, very vulnerable individuals who were targeted because of their vulnerability and that's the kind of story I just kept hearing and emphasized that this was a practice systemic practice by ISIS. And one of the one of the well she was a young girl was only 12 years old when this happened to her. Absolutely yeah this was a young British girl was taken taken over, had no idea where she was going, probably thought she was going on, you know, in fact, did think she was

going on a trip, was excited about the trip, had a bit of travel sickness, ended up being transported across again from Turkey to Syria. She was 12. She was then, with the rest of the women who we spoke with, trapped in this prison and not allowed to leave until and unless she agreed to marry, which she was forced to do, aged 14. Yeah. What's the reality of their lives once they get there? How have they then kept within the camps? So under ISIS, in ISIS territory, they were trapped in, they were imprisoned from the moment they arrived. They were not allowed to leave. It was for the purpose of servitude. So they had to do forced labor. They were brought over to provide, to be wives to men, to provide children for the so-called caliphate. So sexual exploitation was at the heart of this regime under ISIS. They were entrapped, not enslaved, not allowed to leave, abused in ways that are really awful. And so those people who have now ended up in the camps in northern

Syria are women and girls and children who have suffered enormous harm at the hands of ISIS. They are not supporters. These women who I spoke with, they are the opposite of support for ISIS. They are the people who can tell you all of the wrongs and the harms and the evils of that regime. And all they want to do is come home and protect their children and reintegrate into society and rebuild their lives. Andrew, let me bring you in here, because this is a very different story to what we've heard before when Shamima Begum had her passport cancelled and her citizenship taken away by the government. We were told that she poses a significant national security risk.

Yes, we were. And there's no doubt that the British government are concerned about the security and cost aspects of returning these people to the United Kingdom. But the truth is that we should all be extremely grateful to Maya and her colleagues at Reprieve, this British charity, for explaining to the British public the reality behind what is going on. And there are two key aspects to this, really. The first is a security aspect, and the second is a humanitarian aspect. The security aspect is this, that these people, some of whom may be very dangerous, are swilling around in ungoverned space in a lawless part of the world. And that is why the Americans have asked all countries to repatriate their nationals. And indeed, I think they're quite frustrated with Britain because many other countries, including Russia, are repatriating their nationals.

But Britain is not doing so. And they've offered to help bring them home to Britain if that will be of assistance to the British government. Now, Britain is in dereliction of its duties because we are one of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council. We should be setting a good example. And if these people are dangerous, then they are prey to being exploited by bad people. And they could be a danger not only to those in the region, but also to the wider world and to us in Britain on the streets of London and Birmingham. But the humanitarian aspect is this. Many of these people have been trafficked. And we passed legislation in Britain in 2015 under Theresa May's premiership. The Modern Slavery Act specifically designed to stop children being trafficked.

And we were talking here mainly about children being trafficked for sexual exploitation. But many of these people, including Shemima Begum, were children when they were lured or trafficked to Syria. And Shemima Begum has been stereotyped because she appears in a hijab. But actually, there are more recent pictures show her as any Western girl would be shown in jeans and a T-shirtshirt clutching her mobile phone in very dangerous and deprived circumstances in these camps. Well, we've had a statement from the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, and they said our priority is to ensure the safety and security of the UK. Those who remain in Syria include dangerous individuals who chose to stay to fight or otherwise support a group that committed atrocious crimes, including butchering and beheading innocent civilians. The Foreign Secretary made it clear in Parliament that where we become aware of British unaccompanied or orphaned children

or if British children are able to seek consular assistance, we will work to facilitate their return subject to national security concerns. What's your reaction to that? Well, as I said at the beginning of my comments, there are security aspects for this. But the question for us is, is it more dangerous to leave them swilling around in ungoverned space and not held to account? Or is it better to face up to our international responsibilities, bring them as in the northeast Syria, are very great from leaving them swilling around in this area. And now you're co-chair of the APPG across this. What are you seeking to establish? What happens next? Well, we're seeking to make sure, firstly, that the facts of this matter are understood, because I think often they have not been understood.

And then we want to help the government get to the right place in security terms, in terms of its international responsibility. And my co-chair, Lord Jay, you know, the most senior civil servant in the Foreign Office, former ambassador to Paris, as well as Lynn Brown, my Labour colleague, the three of us are hoping that we cover both major political parties and both houses in Parliament and are able to get our colleagues to focus on this in the hope that the government will review its policy and see whether there isn't a better way of dealing with this, both on security grounds as well as on humanitarian grounds. And Maya, very quickly, what recommendations would you like to put to the government?

The government needs to repatriate the small number of British families who are left out in northeast Syria for the reasons that Andrew Mitchell just set out. But also, I find in response to the comment from the Foreign Office, the idea that girls who were trafficked aged 12 are now being viewed as major security risks just shows how far the government is from understanding the reality of the situation. They need to be doing what we and what this fantastic all-party parliamentary group is doing, which is really interrogating what happened, both from a human rights perspective, law perspective and a security perspective.

That's what we can expect from our government. And I'm sure we'll be coming back to this when the report is published. Andrew Mitchell and Maya Foer, thank you very much for joining me. Now, women's football is seeing a huge growth in interest and exposure with Sky Sports about to start televising the Women's Super League. It's been described as a game changer, but there's some concern that the commentary of women's matches is too soft on mistakes and

ends up sounding patronising. Should it change and become more critical as the success of the game develops and players are now professionals with salaries, training and coaches? Well, I'm joined by Telegraph columnist Ben Bloom and the commentator Jackie Oatley, who is a football commentator for the BBC,

Sky and ITV, and she was one of the founding members of Women in Football. Ben recently wrote an article after the England v Canada International where the women lost 2-0. And in it, he described the BBC coverage of the Lionesses' performance as nauseating. Look, I don't want to criticise that specific co-commentator or that specific piece of commentary. So come on then, tell us what you mean.

Look, it's not only England women's football. It's not even just women's football. It's women's team sport as a whole. Football, cricket, rugby, netball, there seems to be a real difference with how the highest level of the game is treated by commentators, pundits, analysts, when they're looking at the male game compared to the female game. And there are very legitimate reasons for that. The women's game, football, cricket, rugby, netball, all of these go back 10 years. In some of the sports, not even 10 years. They weren't professional. So these were essentially amateurs doing it for the love of the game.

It's changed and moved on a lot in recent years. But I feel that the treatment, the analysis and the way that they are seen has not moved with that professionalisation. And the sportswomen themselves have said as much. They've said that some of the treatment can feel a little patronising at times. Jackie, is Ben right? Well, I'm glad that Ben added some context there, because I think the temptation is to watch women's sport and to think, well, I'm going to treat them exactly the same as the men, you know, they're professional, therefore, I'm going to absolutely slate them for everything. But I think, and that's fine, that is fine, to criticise and

critique what you see. But I do think it's important that people understand a little bit more about the backdrop of women's sport it comes from a very different base there have been so many more challenges for example people of my generation I'm in my 40s wasn't allowed to play football there were no matches there were no teams we couldn't play at school we were told no it's for boys etc there was a 50-year ban and I don't want to hark on about that but because we are having this conversation it is important to understand that the development of the men's and women's game in football and in some other sports is very different so we're very much playing catch up and as Ben says there has been an acceleration in the past 10 years or so and I've spoken to

quite a few people in women's football and an international hockey player as well in the last 24 hours. They all find this a fascinating subject. And they say that they would like more tactical analysis. They feel that on occasion, if somebody's maybe a bit too nice about a player making a mistake, they are ready to move on from that now. They do need to be called out for any kind of error. But with the new TV coverage next year, they would like to see more tactics and more analysis of the actual play. Tactics and analysis, not necessarily criticism, because why do we necessarily want to be the same as the male game, Jackie?

Yeah, criticism. I think if you're talking tactics if you're talking about somebody makes an error it's absolutely fine to say that and there is more of a more of a call now from players themselves to have that criticism but then I have to also put the other side and say that some of the players really struggle to take it at the moment because they are not used to it in the way that boys have grown up in academies they know what's coming to them they see it on tv girls haven't necessarily grown up and if you recall a couple of months ago Dubai Gate as it's called that some players went to Dubai and it was it was a bit of a tone deaf thing to do they talked about it being um for business

reasons and right okay but it went down really badly in women's football and I think those players didn't feel they were going to get the scrutiny that a male player would get they were internationals and they weren't named whereas if there were men's players in the situation they'd have been all over the front pages and the back pages so the players themselves particularly with new tv deals next year with football being on league games being on bbc one being bbc two on sky sports i personally think that those players are going to have to have some extra training and manage their expectations

that this is what you're facing. If you want to have top-level salaries in the women's game, you want to have more TV coverage, more chance of boot deals, more chance of TV appearances on all sorts of fun TV shows, you have to take the criticism. Why? Why should big TV deals come alongside criticism? Why should one be aligned with the criticism. Why? Why? Why should be prepared for it? Why should, you know, big TV deals come alongside criticism? Why should one be aligned with the other, Ben? Why is that what we should expect? Well, it's it's more exposure and it's how the game grows.

Me saying that there should be more criticism in the game. This is not a case of me saying we need to slate women. This is this is how do you grow women's sport and it has grown incredibly in the last few years from the grassroots right up to the elite level but now that it's getting on tv on a very very regular basis it has to like jackie said like the players want it has to be analyzed with more rigor. That then brings with it some criticism. And that's how you elevate it. That's how you have an increasingly professional set-up and outlook.

And that's how you grow it to eventually, hopefully, be on a par with men's sport. And grow it, but not in terms of the way they play the game, because surely if you're good, you're good. Someone critiquing you whilst you're playing isn't going to improve your game, is it necessarily? No no of course not all of the people we're talking about they are professional they are at the very pinnacle of their game and they are outstanding sports women so no we're not looking to analyze for their benefit it's more for for the viewers

benefit and how to lift and show what they're doing to the viewer. There is a fine line, though, isn't there? Because if you open the floodgates to more criticism and then it opens up to social media, you end up in a situation possibly which we have now where you've got footballers boycotting social media because of the abuse that they get. So, you know, it's do we really want the women's game is what I'm saying to go down the same route as the male game. Maybe there's a balance to be had. Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right in terms. But you have to say if there's a bad area, you have to say that you can't say, oh, she'll be a bit disappointed. Unlucky she tried. Why are they doing that?

Why are they doing that, Jackie? Are they just being nice? What's going on? I'm not sure people actually say unlucky she tried. But I think there is a sense that perhaps it's not as strong as in the main. I think part of the thing, and I know I hold myself accountable here because I've covered women's football since 2004 and I've hosted World Cups and Euros and commentated as well.

Yeah, why are you being so nice, Jackie? No, I don't think I'm being nice. But I think it's important to note that it's a very small world, women's sport and women's football, and a lot of people know each other and a lot of the time you know the players who are playing I think it is difficult for players who are coming from having played with the players they're then critiquing to then go on the sofa and then criticize them I'm not saying they shouldn't do it and it happens in the men's game as well I think the likes of Alan Shearer have said they found it really hard at first and didn't want to dig out their mates so to speak speak. But then they found ways around it. And they've had conversations with players and

they've made them appreciate this is the job. This is what I have to do. And of course, I think everybody who has an interest in women's sport wants more robust analysis. And I think it is happening. I think we have some very good pundits on the women's game. But I mean, I'll take you back to Euro 2013, when England unfortunately had a terrible campaign, the Finnish bottom of the group. And we had a pundit on there who didn't know any of the players, didn't know Hope Powell, the manager, and was extremely strong.

It was Michael Gray. It was extremely strong in his criticism. He wasn't doing it on purpose to be nasty. It was just he was saying what he saw. And I think some of the players found that refreshing. Some of them found it really hard to take because they weren't used to it and I think it's part of the development of women's sport that as long as it's fair and as long as it's not personal then they're fine to take that criticism and also just one more point if I may is that the top level of women's football in this country, the FAWSL, is known for being professional. But I covered the Women's League Cup final recently,

the Conte Cup final. And Bristol City, yes, they're a top division side, but three of their players have to finish training at three o'clock and go and deliver Hermes parcels, or for a parcel company, in the afternoon to top up their salary because they are only on such low-level salaries. There's a vast disparity between Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United and the teams towards the bottom in terms of budget.

And on this occasion, that is relevant. And so how should women prepare? Because it sounds like a change is going to come if these conversations are happening within the sports and journalists like Ben are calling it out. So how should the players prepare? Yeah, well, I think it's important that there's communication. I spoke to a chairman of a WSL club yesterday about this subject

and he said that we have a meeting called next week to talk about social media and how the players will deal with it next season. And they're going to get their communications team to manage that side of things to help the players prepare for extra scrutiny and personally I think this is really important they mustn't just be thrown in and go well you know you've got extra money or your clubs are receiving more money and you've got more coverage that you wanted so therefore you just got to take it on the chin because don't forget as we saw when Leeds United thought they were being hilarious in targeting

Karen Carney for something she said which I think was slightly taken out of context about their promotion. They weren't thinking about the amount of abuse that women already take just for doing their job and for doing it well. They don't think about that. They think, well, we'd have done it to Jermaine Gina, so we'll do it to Karen Carney. And yes, you want equality, but you also have to understand the reality. And that is that women are already ridiculed, criticised way more for the way they look, for everything, the goalkeeping in the women's game, everything that people have these preconceived ideas about, which actually may not be true, but they lay it on thick anyway. Ben and Jackie, thank you so much. And we will be listening. We will be listening closely

to see if things change and you've been getting in touch Hannah said the commentary on the England match was dire oh dear the bloke told personal anecdotes

ignoring the football in front of him and that's and Les says I'm not sure about women's football but the commentary on women's rugby

is almost as good as for the men's game the players are just as ferociously competitive and don't hold back. My wife also loves both sets of the game. 84844 is the number to text. Now, Betty Webb, MBE, lives on her own a few miles outside Birmingham.

She's 98 years old. And during World War II, she worked at Bletchley Park and briefly at the Pentagon. In the last year, Betty has appeared on the cover of National Geographic, given 15 newspaper interviews. And this Sunday coming, we'll take part in a virtual conversation with another Bletchley veteran, Pat Davis, then out from age 97. You might have heard Pat and her sister Jean on the programme last August. But now I'm honoured that Betty has found the time in her busy schedule to join us on Woman's Hour. A very good morning to you, Betty. Good morning to you.

15 newspaper interviews on the cover of National Geographic. You're a star now. What difference has this made to your life? Well, it just means that I'm never bored. And especially in these difficult times when we can't get about very much, it's been a godsend, actually. And how has the last year been for you, Betty? Well, extremely busy, as I say, with all this, starting with the remembering VE Day and VJ Day. Clearly, I was involved in both. And because there are not many of us left, was chosen to to talk about it. And have you

been okay through lockdown? Oh yes it hasn't bothered me very much I have very good neighbours who make sure I've got plenty of food and I can still drive so I can get out a little bit. You're still driving that's wonderful and you can operate zoom perfectly as well well i don't know about perfectly you should see me sometimes i get in a terrible tangle now people have described um what we're living through at the moment and the the epidemic as like living through a war how does it compare to living through the war i i've been asked this question many times, and I hope that the younger people can understand this. During the war, 1939 to 1945, we knew who our enemies were. Today, we know very little about our enemy.

And I don't honestly think you can compare it. Let's talk about the war, because you did get a job at Bletchley Park. How did you get it? Well, that's been a complete mystery all my life because I joined the HES. That's the Auxiliary Territorial Service, the army side of the women's side. And of course, I had to do basic training up in Wrexham and then comes the day when they ask you what you want to do whether you want to be a cook northerly or a driver or whatever and I said I hadn't the faintest idea which I hadn't and because my CV mentioned that I'm bilingual in German, I had an interview in London with an intelligence corps officer.

I had it in German, actually, at the end of which he said, here's a railway round, get yourself to Bletchley. Well, I'd never heard of Bletchley and certainly didn't know what was going on there. And in the middle of the night, I arrived there, again, as I say, not knowing what on earth was ahead. And I was then asked to read and sign the Official Secrets Act, which is a fairly formidable document, to say the least. And from that moment on, I realized that I could not communicate with anybody, not even my parents, as to where I was and what I was doing until 1975. And there were lots of women that worked at Bletchley. What impact did it have on your life and the lives of the other women there working there? Well, for me, bearing in mind I was only 18

and I'd been brought up in Shropshire in very countrified surroundings. I'd never been anywhere very much except to Germany in 1937. And suddenly I was in a very different social situation. I'm sorry, I've lost the question. You were just in a different social situation. I was just wondering how it changed your lives. Well, it did, absolutely. But for me, especially looking back on it now,

I realised that it was a situation akin to going to a university. It was a tremendous mix of people from very, very clever, important people to junior people like me. There were very important people there, including Alan Turing. Did you meet him? Well, I might have done, but then you see, he wasn't famous then. And because he had asthma, he used to cycle to work with his gas mask on so many of us may have seen him but we wouldn't obviously have recognised him

And you got your MBE in 2015 for remembering and promoting work at Bletchley Park and you're still involved with Bletchley Park very much now aren't you? Very much yes especially this last year and this year. Very much indeed.

They're very kind. They invite me to give interviews and so on. And I just love doing it because, only because, not because it's me, it's because it's promoting Letchley Park, which is very, very important, especially for the young. Yes, absolutely. It's promoting Bletchley Park, which is very, very important, especially for the young. Yes, absolutely. It's important for us to remember, important for us to hear your story. And it's also important for us to just be inspired by you, Betty. You live independently. You've said you drive. You use your mobile. Your hearing is wonderful.

Your capacity to work technology is better than mine what's your secret um i don't know whether it's a secret i come from a family of long livers lots of hundreds and 101 i think there was 102 and i'm very fortunate in having a reasonable health wonderful and what's the what what have you got any plans lined up what's happening next you've got this, you're doing the talk, aren't you? Yes, one or two talks in view, apparently. And I've heard today that at last we're going to be able to unveil our monument to the Women's Royal Army Corps up at the NAM in Litchfield.

Wonderful. Because that's been put on hold because of the situation for nearly two years. So that's going to be a wonderful gathering of former ATS and WRAC ladies. Fantastic. Betty, thank you so much for joining us. It's wonderful to speak to you. And you can hear more of Betty in a virtual conversation with 97-year-old Pat Davis and Dr Tessa Dunlop who's author of the Bletchley Girls this Sunday the 2nd of May. Now tomorrow is the 1st of May and at dawn all the women Morris dancing team boss all women Morris dancing team boss Morris will be making marking May Day by leading a live stream dance. They'll be accompanied remotely by folk luminary Martin Green with songs by Maddy Pryor and Eliza Carthy.

The 12 strong group formed in 2015 in Stroud, Gloucestershire, and strive to present a unique and more inclusive take on the traditional English folk dance. Joining me now is Alex Merry, the founder of Boss Morris and Lily Cheetham, who is a member. Morning to you both. Boss Morris, what's behind the name? Well, it took us a while to come up with it. I think it came along the lines of boss lady and kind of like a feminist sort of power to the woman, I think. So where does, let's talk about Morris dancing,

because everybody has a vision of it, and we all think kind of, you know, country fairs. And I've done my fair talk about Morris dancing because everybody has a vision of it and we all think kind of you know country fairs and I've done the first my fair share of Morris dancing in my time at Countryfile Live I'm always assigned the village green and it's like get around that maypole Anita so let's go through the history what are the origins of Morris dancing I think it's a little bit of a mystery actually I don't think anybody really knows where, when or why it started. But I was personally quite surprised to find out that Morris, in its very early origins, it's first picked up as the highest form of entertainment in royal courts and palaces.

The highest form. I love it. Yeah, and it was, the dancers would wear fine silks and spangles and they'd backflip over swords and it was really athletic and it was just completely the opposite of what I thought Morris was. So it's basically a form of entertainment. Just having a good time, why not?

I mean, the two of you, looking at the two of you, you've got some, let's have a look at what you're wearing actually. Are these like crocheted, very colourful crocheted tops? Black shorts.

Are those black silk or leather shorts? Yellow, orange, bright orange socks up to your knees. You look very cool, ladies. And smashing the stereotype of the Morris dancer as a white old man with a beer

belly and a tankard how does how does your all women group modernize aspects of the tradition what drew you to it well i i've never done any morris dancer before so it was toti alex that hooked me in she is the folk queen come on then alex if you try get get me convince me to join a morris dancing group what did you say to her oh i just think morris is the kind of key to the universe it's this amazing untapped world but um just opens the doors to loads of incredible possibilities i've met some amazing people through morris dancing and um it's brilliant for fitness if you want to keep yeah but it's good for everything yeah socializing and yeah the dancing and yeah we have been to some really strange places with it and things places that I never thought I'd go to just because

like where where have you gone we've done we did Glastonbury we we had like a little cameo with uh hot chip on their on their headline act what you were on stage with hot chip at glastonbury morris dancing i know it was totally it was totally surreal um uh yeah we've done that we've done loads of things you know we've done all sorts we've been we've done like things We've done loads of things. You know, we've done all sorts. We've done like things at the Royal Albert Hall. But then also we've done, you know, we've danced to some old folks in an old folks home on the streets of WI. You know, we don't discriminate. And do you see yourselves as sort of modernising Morris dancing

and changing people's perception of it? I think so, even though that wasn't our mission when we started off. We're basically a group of friends that just wanted to hop around together. But, yeah, I think just from the nature of who we are and what we're interested in, we've taken Morris dancing perhaps a bit more mainstream. If that's possible. You're on Woman's Hour.

I mean, you can't get much more mainstream than this. You've done Glastonbury as well. Absolutely. I mean, there is, Morris dancing does have an uncomfortable association and has been accused of being racist because of blackface. I mean, these are things that they've done in the past that it's important to move away from but i suppose also keep the tradition are you are you across this

are you aware of this what do you think about this we're really aware of this and we feel passionately that um morris should be relevant and should move forward it's a it's um it's defining feature is that it's it's constantly evolving and changing and so um yeah we want to we want to just move it forward and um yeah and it's great that all the morris organizations have um put an end to the um practice of blacking your face which um we're thrilled about we think it's yeah, yeah, really great decision. Yeah, great decision because we are in 2021 now, so absolutely. And Boss Morris, you were inspired by the suffragette Mary Neal.

Tell us about her. Who is Mary Neal? Oh, gosh, she's amazing. We've just been talking, kind of reminiscing about her this morning. She's obviously this person that um she wanted she she obviously saw the poor living conditions in in london particularly in the 10th century right and uh she wanted to make their lives better so she started a club the esperance club and she got she got all the ladies that used to work in the working meals or sewing meals

and they they it was it sounded just like therapy she got more dancing and singing and it was like a real philanthropic kind of act that she was doing yeah amazing completely changed the lives of these working girls in London and um yeah she is a champion of the arts we're all we're all artists um and you know the transforming power that music and dance can have and um yeah and we we're just amazed that she's been kind of written out of the the history of Morris yeah um so yeah we like to talk about her and educate people about her written out until now you've brought her back um and does morris dancing have its roots in europe because it's thought of as a very english tradition isn't it it is um but yeah

it's it's essentially it was a kind of european dance craze that moved across the england and then got appropriated here and i mean it's it's adapted and it's a whole amalgam of loads of different things but yeah. Isn't there some links to some Moorish that's in Moorish is it? Yeah it's very yeah again we just nobody really knows the the origins of it. That's why I like it I think it's a mystery history there's so many theories that you know that it's like in true any true folk tradition you know it's got so many different kind of influences in it and it changes and it moves and it you know and that's what we're kind of doing it updates and we're trying to like make it this living thing that's kind of relevant now

and it's also a part of my enjoyment of morris dancing is that it's very it's anti establishment you know there aren't any morris academies it really hang on hang you've got my interest now and no you've i've been interested i want to do i've done it go on anti-establishment go on tell me more and it's an outsider thing you know it's it's not like we have massive Morris display sides. It's a true rootsy art form. And I love it for that. Right. Well, tell me about your costumes as well, because I described them earlier.

But people don't necessarily, it's not what you expect. I think of Morris dancers in big flouncy white shirts and almost like knickerbockers. I don't know what I'm thinking of. But anyway, talk me through what you're wearing and then we're going to do some dancing. flouncy white shirts and almost like knickerbockers i don't know what i'm thinking of but anyway talk me through what you're wearing and then we're going to do some dancing me and alex have got some very fetching handmade crochet did you make them yeah i made most of them and then some of the others have made there's a few it's a bit of team effort so not only are you dancing morris dancers extraordinaire you're also craft queens oh that that is all part of it. It's all part of our

creative outlet. And I'm into the knee-length shorts. What are they made out of? They're actually boxing shorts. Black, silky, long shorts that we've appropriated for this kit. Alright, well, look, you're both on your feet,

so we might as well, like everybody listening, we're going to try this. We're going to do bit of morris dancing on the radio why not i've got some of the bbc's finest um toilet tissues here in my hands look at that i'm ready right so grab a dishcloth whatever you can grab okay girls talk us through this lots of talking please it's radio so listeners at home this must be a world first i Yeah, that's what we do on Women's Hour, world's firsts. Here we go. Morris is really athletic, really energetic. So we do a bit of warm-up first.

So stretch the legs. Yeah, stretch the legs. Yeah, we're limbered up. We're ready to go. What happens now? So we've got our hankies, got our bells. We're going to do a little Morris sequence of steps. We're going to learn the double step.

We're going to learn the single step. And then we're going to do a jump to finish. And this sequence, it basically turns up in loads of our Cotswold. So, let's go for it. Just let's go for the double step. We've got one minute. Here we go. That is right foot, left foot, right one minute here we go right foot left foot

right foot top on the right left foot right foot left foot top on the left right left right hop left right left that's it get the hankies waggling at the same time you You got it? Left, right, left, hop, right, left, left, hop. I'm missing out on the bells. I definitely need a pair of those socks. Oh, always. Brilliant. Worked up a sweat this Friday morning.

Thank you very much for giving us a lesson in Morris dancing this morning. Thank you both. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Climate change is real, it's happening, but it's not the end of the world.

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