Woman's Hour - Mothers' names on marriage certificates. The Budget. Captain Sir Tom's daughter Lucy Teixeira

Episode Date: March 3, 2021

From May mothers' names will finally be featured alongside fathers' details on marriage certificates, in England and Wales thanks to years of campaigning both inside and outside of parliament. We hear from Ailsa Burkimsher Sadler who started the campaign for change back in 2013 and Revd Canon Dr Sandra Millar who is the Church of England’s Head of Life Events.Today one of the most powoerful women in UK politics, Nicola Sturgeon has been giving evidence to a special committee set up by the Scottish Parliament to investigate the handling of sexual harassment complaints against Alex Salmond. We look at the implications for her, her Party and for the Scottish Government.If you still crave a career in music what are some strategies for survival? Sound Advice is a new handbook for aspiring musicians written by journalist Rhian Jones and PhD researcher Lucy Heyman. Plus a lookahead to the Chancellor's speech with Mary-Ann Stephenson from the Women's Budget Group. And Captain Sir Tom's daughter Lucy Teixeira on why her family are inviting people to come together to plant trees and grow a living legacy forest in his name. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. At the moment, one of the most powerful women in the UK is fighting for her job. Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, is giving evidence at the inquiry into the Scottish Government's handling of sexual harassment allegations against Alex Salmond, the former First Minister. We'll hear some of her testimony shortly and some insight into what it could mean for her job and her political future and Scotland overall. But what I want to ask you today, as Taylor Swift hits the headlines about what she claims is a sexist joke about her in a Netflix drama and in the wake of that free Britney New York Times documentary about the mental health of and the media attacks on Britney Spears, would you ever want to be famous?

Today, we're going to look specifically at the world of music and if it's doing more to help its female stars in particular with how to cope in this social media 24-7 wave of coverage and how to handle fame. But with people in the public eye, from royals through to pop stars, talking about how it feels to be in the public eye, would you ever want it? Is it desirable? Is it something that perhaps your children are still coveting when they talk about what do you make of it all? Is it something you've experienced?

I'm sure we do have many famous people who listen to Woman's Hour. If you'd like to get in touch today with us, 84844, tell us your view on this. Of course, with it comes great riches, great insights, great connections, great creativity, all those other things that could be overseen or overlooked, lot of people in the public eye talking at the moment about the mental health deficit? What do you make of it? Would you ever want to be famous? Have you ever had a few minutes of fame? What was it like? Maybe you've gone viral, maybe something you've posted online. Tell us about your moments in the sun or maybe see Women's Hour on social media or email us via our website to get in touch with your stories and views. Also on today's programme, mothers' names and occupations are finally going on to marriage certificates in England and Wales from the beginning of May. You may have thought, well, I thought that campaign

had already been won. I thought that already happened. No, hadn't come to pass yet. It's about to. We'll be speaking to the woman who kicked it all off. And Captain Tom Moore's daughter joins us today to talk about her father's legacy and how trees will be playing a part. All to come here on Woman's Hour. But since nine o'clock this morning, one of the most powerful women in UK politics, Nicola Sturgeon, has been giving evidence to a special committee set up by the Scottish Parliament to investigate the handling of sexual harassment complaints against Alex Salmond. The committee heard from the former First Minister last week and now it's Nicola Sturgeon's turn. She's facing calls to resign after new documents

raise further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga. The government has published emails showing it continued a doomed legal fight with Mr Salmond despite its lawyers advising it was likely to lose. Further evidence from two other witnesses has called into question Nicola Sturgeon's version of events. Let's have a listen to some of her opening remarks. The procedure that was adopted in late 2017 in the wake of the MeToo concerns

was drafted by civil servants, largely independent, was kept abreast of its development and I did sign it off. As a result of a mistake that was made, a very serious mistake in the investigation of the complaints against Alex Salmond, two women were failed and taxpayers' money was lost. I deeply regret that. Although I was not aware of the error at the time, I am the head of the Scottish Government and so I want to take this opportunity to say sorry to the two women involved and to the wider public. For an update, I'm joined by Mark McLaughlin, political and educational

correspondent for The Times in Scotland. Good morning, Mark. Good morning. People may be struck by one of the very first things that Nicola Sturgeon said this morning in her evidence, her opening remarks, was an apology to those two women caught up in this who may have been forgotten. That's right. That kind of gives you an insight into where Nicola Sturgeon's head is at in this whole process. Now, you need to keep two Alex Salmons in your head at the moment. He's kind of like a Schrodinger's Alex. There's the Alex Salmond, who is a completely innocent man, he has been wronged, and he is the victim of a plot to bring him down. There is also the other Alex Salmond, who is perhaps not been the best of men towards women.

And this behaviour has caught up with them. And this is what this inquiry is looking at. Now, the problem is that the women were failed and perhaps Alex Salmond was failed because this process was botched either by design or, you know, by accident because one of the people involved was too close to the complainants. And in terms of the situation with Nicola Sturgeon, she's gone on to talk about that

he's never said sorry with regards to Alex Salmond. And she says, I refuse to allow the age-old tradition of a powerful man to get what he wants. Should her political career be on the line for this? Again it depends whether you believe Alex Salmond's narrative. In Alex Salmond's mind and it may be the truth is he may not have anything to apologise for. He was found innocent in a court of law. The internal Scottish government process that was going to investigate all of this collapsed because it never reached a conclusion because it collapsed. And maybe if Alex Salmond was guilty of all of this, that was the best outcome for him, you know, because he managed to stop the game at half time.

I suppose the thought is also around her future because we are just ahead of elections happening in Scotland. Do you think that she would ever resign ahead of those if she wasn't forced to? How do you see this playing out? You've already seen it playing out in some of the briefing that's been going on this morning and in the past couple of days. The line from the SNP is that Priti Patel didn't have to resign for breaching the ministerial code. So why should Nicola Sturgeon? Also, whenever Nicola Sturgeon gets herself into trouble, she always says, well, there's an election coming up.

It seems like there's been an election every five minutes since Nicola Sturgeon became First Minister in 2014, whether it's been a Holyrood election, a Westminster election, a referendum on something. She can always turn around and say, look, there's an election around the corner. So regardless of what my opponents think, let's just throw this out to the people and let the people decide what they make of my behaviour. Mark McLaughlin, political and educational correspondent for The Times in Scotland.

Thank you for that. And that session is continuing with Nicola Sturgeon giving answers at the moment. Now, at the weekend, the funeral was held for Captain Sir Tom Moore, who raised tens of millions of pounds for NHS charities during lockdown by walking around his garden. He died last month at the age of 100. Health Secretary Matt Hancock tweeted, Sir Captain Tom Moore was an inspiration and we will never forget his efforts throughout the pandemic. He showed the best of Britain. His daughter says he's been and had been a beacon of light and now there are plans for a celebration of his life next month on what would have been his 101st birthday, that's on the 30th of April, and on also a Trees for Tom initiative coming down the pipe. His eldest daughter Lucy Tashara, joins us today. Thank you for joining us, Lucy. And I thought I'd start by asking, how are you?

Good morning, Emma. Thank you so much. And I appreciate the question. Obviously, my father's funeral was on Saturday. The army gave him the most incredible send off. And I think if he had been watching, he would have had a tear in his eye. I just don't think we could have done any better for him. It was memorable.

It was spectacular. A fly past. It was really, really good. And how I'm feeling is, you know, I'm having good days and bad days. Sometimes I'm feeling really okay. And then the next thing I'm thinking, oh, it's quite challenging. Yes. And elements of this, which, you know, a lot of people dealing with a lot of loss at the moment is that yours was playing out publicly, even if it was beautiful and so well-intentioned, that must have added a level to this that you couldn't have

imagined. You are absolutely right. Right up until the pandemic, I was visiting my father and my family probably once a month. And, you know, he was that person that, you know, right up until his accident, I would either turn up and he'd be in his garden or he'd be in his sitting room snoozing. You know, he was a very outdoors person and he had a lot of jobs at my sister's house and her family's house. He really was part of the big machine and he had, you know, he was really busy right up until his accident. Yes. I wonder, how have you felt sharing him with the world like this? That was quite challenging to start with, to be truthful. You know, I'm a do, you know, get on with it, kind of get on with it, do it, you know, get involved kind of person. And I, like many, had, you know, so many problems, you know, connecting with family members and watching this unfold and seeing what he achieved.

And in four weeks, you know, in four weeks, he raised that kind of money, £38.8 million in four weeks. I mean, you couldn't have written it if you tried. It's incredible. I suppose at times I may have felt, you know, oh, can everybody just leave us alone for a bit, please? It's, you know, it's my dad and I want to talk to him and just be regular with him. But, you know, again, we've got a lot of enforced distance between us at the moment, haven't we? Indeed. And I've always said when I've been interviewed that I am like millions of people that are separated from loved ones. Right up until the pandemic, visiting my father, we would have a good laugh about his 100th birthday and whether or not he'd reach it, you know.

And I wasn't able to be there, but I was lucky. I had the BBC filming it, so I was able to see it. I mean unbelievable really bizarre bizarre must have been a word that was was coming to mind right and I wanted to ask because it fits in with what we're talking about on a wider level today which is your father had huge fame very very quickly for for a short relatively short period of time right at the end of his life for a great cause in a very important moment but we're talking about whether people would ever want to be famous because that's still a desire for a lot

of people we're told coming up into the world when they're looking at their lives ahead whether it's wanting to be singers actors whatever in that field but even somebody like your father, who has inspired so many, even he received, we've been told now, online abuse. Challenging. Absolutely. And who would have thought that people would have been negative about my father and his message? Online trolling was kept from, you know, the messages of hate were kept from him by my sister which I completely agree but it wasn't just him that they were attacking they were attacking attacking us as a family too really and it's just so wrong in what way just just as a as a whole that you were his relatives and he was he was in the limelight well yes it was it was all about it was it was different elements you know I could see my sons were talking to me about different elements on

the internet whether or not he was going on holiday or doing this or doing that um it was just recently actually around his death I'm so sorry to hear that awful really awful did you see any of this yourself I I try and stay off social media, if I'm being honest with you, as best I can. But I know that my sister has kept a lot from him. It wouldn't have been right to share that with him at his age. A hundred-year-old man after a fantastic year that he helped all of us with our mental health, with his message of tomorrow will be a good day. And then to have that in the background. I'm loving the law that might happen that people can no longer be anonymous. I think that they need to be. if they're going to do stuff like that,

we need to be able to name and shame them. Well, talking there about the forthcoming online harms bill, we'll see, of course, how that plays out. But it's very interesting to get your take on that. And moving, if I can, to more hopeful waters, which is where I'd like to spend more time with you, especially if we talk about your father's legacy. There's the Tom for Trees initiative and also potentially plans around what would have been his 101st birthday next month. Tell us a bit about that. Okay, so I have 700 colleagues and I've been a tree sister for some time. And all my colleagues were saying, what can we do once he passed away and I was plant trees uh tree sisters are a uk charity replanting the tropics and trees in the tropics uh grow three

times faster than native trees here and sequest three to nine times more carbon than trees here so it's a really lovely message and at the moment there's about 39 000 trees being planted in his name so that's fantastic and i'm also working with the woodland trust who have also here in the uk planted 50 million trees in the uk since 1972 they are it's an incredibly powerful legacy beyond what he has already done but trees in general as you make that point matter and do a lot for all of us and mean a lot to people without them necessarily taking it in although maybe we are more because all we're allowed to do is go for walks at the moment it seems you know where we live and perhaps appreciate nature

a bit more. What's the plan for the birthday? Have you been involved with any of that? I know your sister has spoken a little about that. Yes, absolutely. The Captain Tom Foundation is there in the wings and it's, you know, it's got lots and lots of exciting things planned this year. And he's got, you know, his next book, which is the Tom's Life Lessons, which I can't wait to read. Do you think read. Do you know what some of them will be? Are you aware? I've put some of my input in, but I'm waiting to have a good read of that. His books are really good.

Lucy, how will you remember your dad? I was born halfway through his life. I had a fantastic childhood. What he did in the last year is so memorable. And everybody knows about him. 162 countries donated to his fund. It's not just me. He's everybody else's dad, grandfather.

He reminds them of somebody lovely in their life. And he has inspired people all over the world to think of others and raise money for people and get older people moving. I couldn't be more proud. Thank you for talking to us today. Lucy Teixeira there, as a Captain Tonmore's daughter, remembering him personally, but also in a national and international sense. Now, moving to matters that will be happening around lunchtime today, in case you've been hiding under a rock and you really didn't know, today is Budget Day. But it is like no other. At lunchtime, the Chancellor will reveal his plans to try to repair an economy that's been hammered in ways we barely thought possible. Although many of his headline announcements have already been revealed,

such as the decision to extend the furlough scheme until September, more to come at that dispatch box. Many of you have seen tough times in the past year. Perhaps you're hoping that the contents of that red box might possibly ease your financial pain or those around you. We know women have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic. A report out only yesterday by the accountancy firm PwC found the rate of women's economic progression is expected to decline for the first time in a decade because of COVID-19's

economic impact. Today, we're going to try and look at what could or should Rishi Sunak's budget do for women. Marianne Stevenson, the chief executive of the Women's Budget Group, and Jesse Hewitson, the deputy money editor for The Times and Sunday Times, join me now. Marianne, if I begin with you, perhaps a counterintuitive question on Women's Hour and also in light of what I just said, but should we be trying to extract a female-focused policy from the budget after the year that was when you know all of us in many ways are in it in a different way as it were yes we should i mean we're all facing the pandemic but we're not all in the same situation um and as you said at the beginning women have been hit

harder over the past year um both because they've had to take on more unpaid care work as schools and nurseries are closed, but also because women have been more likely to be working in sectors that have been hit hard. High street retail, hospitality, the beauty sector have all been really badly hit. So we've seen women have been more likely to be furloughed than men. They're more likely to depend on universal credit and other benefits. They're more likely to have got into debt, particularly single parents. And the last year, we've also seen failures in government to actually recognise that and recognise the different impact on women. So we've had gaps in policy. And this is a real opportunity for the Chancellor to do something about that,

to close those gaps. I was going to say there's also been huge criticism from those who work as self-employed. So this is an agendered point that there's been gaps in policy there as well. And I suppose the government's response, if we had a member of the Mono, could predict it may be something along the lines of we're in an emergency situation. We can't do very niche bespoke responses. It's got to sort of be a one size fits all a lot of the time across the board and look at how many jobs the furlough scheme, for instance, has managed to sustain. Do you have any sympathy

for that point of view? Well, I think it's certainly true that the furlough scheme has had a huge impact and has meant that we haven't had unemployment that we would otherwise face. But the problem is, if you decide, design your one size fits all scheme based on men's lives and men's working patterns and not taking into account things like unpaid care work, then you have a scheme that doesn't work for half the population. If you look at the support for the self-employed it's absolutely right that there's been gaps for both men and women but there's been particular gaps for women who are new mothers so the failure to take into account the fact that women might have been on maternity leave so might have a lower period lower level of earnings over the period where it's

calculated and that's something that the pregnant then screwed and maternity action have been raising since the start of the pandemic repeatedly and but they you know notice notably we did report on this they lost that court case they did unfortunately lose their court that court case but there is no reason why the government can't simply say okay when you're calculating your earnings over a period any period that you've had of maternity leave can be taken out of that calculation. It would be very straightforward. And that would solve a problem for millions of women. Let's get Jessie in on this, Deputy Money Editor for The Times and Sunday Times. What are the areas that you think the Chancellor should be or could be focusing on to help women?

Marianne, outlining how things have been different for women during the pandemic. I think childcare, because I think what the lockdown has shown us is the value of childcare. And when you take it away, how women, a lot of women can't work. So I would love it if he took the 30 hours free childcare a week and increased it to children who hit the age of one, because at the moment, it starts at the age of three. But mums tend to, the mums that want to go back to work tend to go back at the age of one. So why that delay? It's just delaying women getting back into work. So I think childcare is the key issue. And when you look at the gender pay gap, which is currently around 20%, when you look at it in pay gap, which is currently around 20%, when you look at it in detail, it only really starts to become a problem, or that gender divide starts to be really

noticeable when a woman reaches her early 30s, which is the time she starts to have children. So I feel it's an issue that is much about flexible working as it is about women negotiating different rates of pay to men. So I think it's about childcare. And also, I would love it if the government could do a sort of PR campaign to persuade employers of the value of employing mums. Because at the moment, I think in the workplace, employers often look at the sort of downsides and overemphasize them. And what we bring to the workplace is underappreciated. And often we like common scenarios that a mum does a part time work and works a half or an extra day a week. And yet somehow you find mums trying to sort of desperately negotiate that when actually what they're trying

to negotiate is being overqualified for a job and working for free. So it's hard to understand why employers don't grab it. So some specific asks there on your shopping list. Marianne, any to add? Yes. I mean, I think what we need is significant investment to rebuild the economy and that needs what we would describe as a social infrastructure as well as physical infrastructure. So things like health, education, the care sector. We've done research that showed that the same amount of money invested in care would create 2.7 times as many jobs as that money invested in construction. We need a care led recovery and we need a recovery that takes into account the needs to tackle the climate emergency. I was just going to say on that point if I may there had been criticism that the idea of it all being focused on construction, build back better, dare I say it jobs for the boys in inverted

commas. I know there are many women now who work in construction but the sort of vibe of the government around that area has faced some criticism. There is something very attractive to some politicians about hard hats and high-vis jackets. And also the sense that these jobs are somehow more real jobs than, for example, jobs in the care sector, that jobs in the care sector are kind of women's jobs and therefore they don't count. But we have a crisis in social care in this country. And we also have a crisis in childcare, as Jesse mentioned. I mean, 25% of nurseries warn that they might close in the next year. Childcare, social care providers are also in danger of collapse. So we need to invest in care to make sure that the people who need it get care, but to also create jobs that many of the women who've lost jobs in other sectors could be retrained to do.

Yes, well, the collapse of the high street has also been something that will disproportionately affect women in terms of jobs and where they go to next. Again, we've been looking at that on Woman's Hour. Well, we will see what's in the red box, what's left to be revealed, as much has already been revealed. Jessie, as you are deputy money editor, a very, very quick question to you. I don't know if this one crossed your path, a much lighter hearted one, if I may, on Budget Day. Has been a call for the tax on the duty on wine to be looked at because there hasn't been as much of a hike as there has on beer. Now, there's been a bit of a question of whether that's because women like to drink wine and men like to drink beer.

And any any joy or any insight on this, Jessie? I don't know if you saw this in the papers yesterday. Well, I've got a bit of insight in that wine drinkers have paid 4.6 billion more in tax than beer drinkers over the last 10 years. Thank you. Wine does tend to be the typical of choice for women compared with men. My sense is that I would love it if Rishi Sunak does throw us a bone with some cheaper wine. Well, there you go. More likely than the childcare from the age of one, sadly.

Yes, if you can't get the childcare, you can get the wine, maybe a bit cheaper. We will see. Not a laughing matter, really, but equally, I just thought I'd raise that because it was a particular insight onto the gender side of the budget that I hadn't seen before. Jessie Hewitson, Deputy Money Editor for The Times and Sunday Times. Thank you.

You'll be back tomorrow to actually talk to us about when we know what we know. And Marianne Stevenson, thank you very much to you, Chief Executive of the Women's Budget Group. Again, we'll be back to talk about what's actually in that budget when it's been revealed.

We'll talk about that tomorrow. Now, many of us may have dreamt or may still dream of being a rock star, music star, the fame, the fortune. But of course, the reality is often far from that. And as documentaries as Framing Britney and Billie Eilish's The World's a Little Blurry have recently exposed, it can also bring with it mental health problems and loneliness. Former Little Mix star Jessie Nelson, she's recently opened up about her eating disorders. Taylor Swift is back in the headlines rebuking Netflix for a sitcom,

Ginny and Georgia, for making a sexist joke she says is sexist about her love life degrading hard-working women with outdated attempts at humour. But if you still crave a career in music, are there strategies for survival? Sound Advice is a new handbook for aspiring musicians written by journalist Rhian Jones and PhD researcher Lucy Heyman. They're on the line now. Lucy, let's say hello to you first. Good morning.

How did you come up with the idea for this book? Good morning, Emma, and thank you so much for having us today. So I was doing a literature review for a PhD and it became really apparent that there was quite a lot of research that was out there to support classical musicians but not very much to support anyone in any other musical genre and at the time of doing the the literature review the UK music published a survey that suggested that 94% of the albums sold in the UK were non-classical albums so it suggested that the research was going to a very small proportion of the musicians that actually needed it so we came up with this idea of actually well first of all I did the

literature review for the PhD and found the main topics that we needed to look at and then I collaborated with Rhian who actually came up with the idea separately and we both had the same idea at the same time and yeah so we realized that there was a lot of support that was needed for these kind of musicians and there was a hole that needed to be plugged rian what's it like when you you know you've written for billboard music week the guardian what what are they like these stars when you talk to them and is it not all it's cracked up to be so um i would caveat that by just saying that my specialism is in the music business. So I tend to speak to a lot of business executives, although I, of course, also speak to artists and spoke to a lot of artists for the book. So, yeah, I think that people will be surprised to learn just how many of the people who look like, you know, on the surface and what we see

on social media are just hugely successful and, you know, living happy, wonderful lives are actually really struggling mentally and emotionally as a result of the challenges that come with being a musician. And that side of it, I suppose, I'm really intrigued with some of the messages we've got in. If I just read you one from Sophie, because we were asking, would you ever want to be famous? Is that still an ambition? Sophie says, as a young woman, I think most of the messages we've got in. If I just read you one from Sophie, because we were asking, would you ever want to be famous? Is that still an ambition? Sophie says, as a young woman, I think most of the children have an idealised view of stardom, mostly view the celebrities as popular, attractive and wealthy, you know, wanting to get into music. The fascination with that is being a perfect person, loved by all, gorgeous. It comes from teenage emotions and social media

perpetuating the mindset, not followed up with an understanding of the anonymous. And then there's a scrutiny under the eye of millions hounded by the media, personal political opinions being used against you. Being famous would be horrible. I know that your book's not trying to say that it's trying to help people survive who are going through this. But do you get a sense that it's worse than it has been? I think that there are a lot of specific challenges that come with being in the public eye today as a result of social media. Yes, because it's relentless. It's very direct.

You know, in previous years before social media, fans would write letters or be in fan forums. And that's the way they would communicate with the musicians. And today, you know, you can just, a musician can have a social media account and they can receive messages and tweets and likes and comments just constantly. So that's really tough because there isn't a filter unless you're lucky enough to have a team to deal with that sort of stuff for you, which a lot of musicians can't afford to have. And yeah, I mean, I think that's the main thing, social media. And there

are lots of other things on the business side of music that suggest that today's environment is particularly tough. You know, with the internet comes the increased competition for attention. So it's really hard to get heard, which means that musicians typically have to release more music than they ever have done before. So the work rate is relentless. There's less money earned from the sales of recorded music. So that could mean more time spent on the road on tour. And as we point out in the book, being on the road road and especially being on the road a lot and without enough breaks in between touring and in between shows is an incredibly tough lifestyle. Some insights there that might be different to how you're thinking. To get your take Lucy on the

biggest issue that people in this industry who are under a microscope if they do make it and that's a big part of it if they make it because so many don't is it around mental health is that the biggest issue that you think they need more support i think we've had a lot of awareness raised recently within music about some of the mental health challenges that musicians face and that is fantastic but we also need to look at some of the physical health issues that musicians face so research suggests that 74 percent of musicians experience pain when they play, which is a huge percentage. There are significant vocal health issues. There are hearing issues. I spoke to a musician last week who was telling me about how her tinnitus was actually making her suicidal.

So I think it's quite difficult to actually separate the mental and physical health issues out from each other because they're so interlinked. And I think if we want to support musicians in the future overall with their health, we're going to have to look at how we can support them with their physical health needs as well as their mental health needs. When you're looking at this, Rhian, you spoke to the songwriter Lauren Aquilina what happened to her briefly? So um she was signed to a major label and um everything seemed to be going really well and you know the path that she that she thought that she was on kind of ended overnight um she had some music and some plans that were supposed to be released and it all got kind of shelved for various reasons um and that's obviously really tough to deal with I think a lot of things a lot of um the musicians that we spoke to for the book talked about how their work is a is very much a part of their identity so when things do fail or seem to fail then it can just feel like a personal failure and an attack on the person as well as their work.

And that's really tough to deal with and can result in lots of mental health problems. And that's quite unique, of course, about the type of work that they're doing. Well, the book is called Sound Advice. It's a new handbook for aspiring musicians written by, as you were just hearing from, the journalist Rhian Jones and the PhD researcher, Lucy Hayman. I have to say, not many of you are getting in touch to say you'd like to be famous, maybe infamous, one of you has written, but not famous.

But while we are talking about musicians and women in music and their music being who they are, let's turn to one of the greats. Dolly Parton helped make one of the COVID vaccines a reality. She was one of the funders of the Moderna vaccine, one of the three approved vaccines in the UK, although not yet in use here. It is, however, being rolled out in America

and Dolly has now had the vaccination in Nashville, Tennessee, a moment that she marked like this. Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine. I'm begging of you, please don't hesitate. Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine. I'm begging of you, please don't hesitate. Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine. Because once you're dead, then that's a bit too late. As only she can say, I thought I'd give the final word on women in music to Dolly Parton, reappropriating her song Jolene there very appropriately. Now, from May, Mother's Names will finally be featured

alongside Father's Details on marriage certificates, thanks to years of campaigning both inside and outside of Parliament. It's a practice that's been unchanged since 1837 in England and Wales. Mother's Names and occupations are recorded in Scotland, Northern Ireland and in civil partnerships. Elsa Bekimshir-Sadler started the Campaign for Change way back in 2014. Also with us, Reverend Sandra Miller, the Church of England's Head of Life Events, which takes in weddings. Good morning to you both. Elsa, I know you knew you'd sort of won this campaign, but it hadn't happened yet, had it?

Yes, that's right, because I started the petition sort of seven or eight years ago and gained sort of 70,000 signatures on the petition. And then lots of MPs started to individually come out and say they supported it. And then in August 2014, David Cameron sort of gave a speech and said he pledged to address this inequality. But I think the problem was there was never any government legislation about it. And there was lots and lots of different private members bills

that all kind of failed when there was general elections and things like that. So it's kind of got stuck a bit, but it's about to happen. And, you know, I want to get your reaction to that. But why did you start this in the first place? Tell us a bit about you do you do you work in marriages weddings is this your field um no i'm a chartered accountant i'm just i've never done any campaigning like this before but what happened when i got married in 2001 i never noticed it at that time um i was i was looking at my marriage certificate in around 2013

um and i noticed it and I thought good gosh that's absolutely crazy maybe it's changed between 2001 and 2013 found out that it hadn't changed and I just couldn't believe that a legal document in the 21st century could be sort of so sexist and I was just so cross that women were being written out of history and not recorded and leaving the father's details on those tantamounts, suggesting that the marriage was still a transaction between two different fathers. So I just decided that I would set up a petition and see if I could go about getting this changed.

And I suppose that's the thing. You look at something like this and you think, oh, somebody must be dealing with this. And then you realise, no, no, they're not. And you took it upon yourself. So well done you for having, you know, the wherewithal to do that. How do you feel that from May, people will be able to have their mums' names and occupations on there

in England and Wales? Yes, I'm just really, really pleased because that was the aim that I set out with all those years ago. So, yeah, I'm very, very happy. Before I bring in Reverend Sandra Miller, I just wanted to read this message to you, Elsa, from Kate. He's got in touch on email. He says, when I got married in October 2000, not so far from your own, I was so angry that only my father's occupation was going to be put on the marriage certificate. I had no idea that this was the case, having been brought up by my lovely mum.

I told the registrar I couldn't remember my dad had left when I was 16 I hadn't even he hadn't even bothered to come to my wedding so why should he be on the certificate I thought couldn't remember in terms of his details I'm sure you must have heard that story while you've been campaigning yes that's right people that supported it sort of fell into kind of three groups would be with that example there would also just be people from a sort of a feminist everyday sexism point of view but there are also um family historians who said that actually this really annoys them and it makes it really tricky for them doing the family tree research to actually not have the mum's names although there's been ways of getting around that haven't there sandra miller to bring you in reverend sandra miller often women or mothers

i should say are encouraged to sign and be witnesses. Is that how we try and get women's names into it until now? Yes, women can sometimes be signing as witnesses. Brides and grooms will often choose their mums to do that part of the service. And in churches, there are also other ways of recognising and involving mums in the service and indeed other people who've parented because it isn't always just a mum. But you're absolutely right, Elsa, you know, it's always one of those awkward conversations for any of us who've been involved

in ministry and taking weddings in the last couple of decades. It's one of those awkward conversations when you've had to kind of explain that this historic, traditional situation applies and you can't put your mum and your mum's occupation down in the register. How are you and your colleagues feeling about it, that finally the change is here in England and Wales? I think we'll be delighted. And most of us, when we meet couples, we'll be having those conversations, finding out about their families and who their parents are,

what their history is and so on. And so we'll be delighted to be able to include that part of their story as well as the situation they're in at the moment. Have you been doing any weddings during this year? How's it been? It's been a very odd year, I imagine, for you in many ways. Yes, it has. And one of the great things is the way in which so many vicars across the country have been able to be there for brides and grooms who've wanted to get married in difficult circumstances and help them through. And that can be as simple as keeping in touch with them and helping them rearrange. So we had a lovely story the other day of a vicar who sent all her couples that had been cancelled and postponed and waiting Valentine's cards with love hearts in just to just to say, you know, keep in touch.

We'll get there eventually um church is going the extra mile when weddings could happen putting out um flowers for couples i've heard of one making contact with a care home where the brides uh in fact in this case father lived so the care home could have a day not obviously coming to the wedding but through zoom but also make cakes for them so they could be celebratory on the day. So we tried to make the day special rather than disappointing. Can I ask you, just while we've got you as Reverend Sandra Miller from the Church of England, there's this story in the papers today about the church allowing a fan of the poet Sylvia Plath to be buried alongside her literary heroine in Yorkshire in a graveyard 200 miles from

her home in what's being described as a possibly unique case. The church having taken this decision as they didn't think it would open the floodgates for others to make this sort of application. I mean, she's a book lover and this is special permission. Have you got a view on that? Gosh, that's an interesting story, Emma. And as you say, it's almost certainly a unique situation. So obviously people who, when people die, you were talking about grief and bereavement earlier it's a really important time for people to do something that marks their situation in a particular way and obviously this mattered a great deal to that person I don't know the back story

of course I'll go and have I'll go and have a look because certainly the choice of Sylvia is interesting in itself isn't it it is well thank you for for talking to us across across marriages and funerals, which is how everything is, I suppose, at the moment, even more than usual. Elsa, to give the final word to you, how are you going to celebrate,

if anything, or are you just going to kind of quietly nod and think, I did my bit here when mothers' names and occupations are added to certificates across England and Wales as weddings start back up?

Well, I think I maybe need to postpone the celebrating so I can actually see my mother and my mother-in-law in person, who obviously are the personal people to me who are sort of missing from my marriage certificate. Well, I think that is a very wise thing to do. Thank you for talking to us today. And this is about to start, as I say, at the beginning of May. The change hasn't been happening since 1837.

That's what it's going to be reversing. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Matthew Side. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Sideways. Each week, I'll be telling you stories that I hope

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