Woman's Hour - MP Caroline Nokes, Beverley Knight, Chinese tennis player Peng Shuai

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

Last week, Caroline Nokes, former minister, Conservative MP and the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee - accused the Prime Minister's father of groping her 18 years ago at a Conservative Party Conference. Stanley Johnson has so far declined to comment on the allegation, saying he has no recollection of it. Caroline talks to Emma.‘The Drifters Girl’ is a musical which tells the story of Faye Treadwell, one of the first Black women to manage a vocal group in the US. Singer and actor Beverley Knight plays Faye and joins Emma to discuss this remarkable woman. Peng Shuai is one of China's top tennis players, but there are global concerns over her safety after she accused the former Chinese vice-premier, Zhang Gaoli, of raping her in 2018. We talk to Cindy Yu Broadcast Editor at The Spectator.Have you ever been affected by persistent, unexplained pain in your vulva? Vulvodynia is a chronic condition that is thought to affect up to 16% of women. Emma is joined by Claudia Chisari, a PHD researcher in Vulvodynia at King’s College London and Sheren Gaulbert, who suffered from Vulvodynia for 10 years.Joan Rhodes could bend steel bars , lift two men at a time, and rip phone books apart. Often described in the press as the strongest woman in the world, she became friends with Marlene Dietrich and even performed for the Royal Household at their Annual Christmas bash. Triona Holden got to know her before she died, and has written her biography ‘An Iron Girl in a Velvet Glove: The Life of Joan Rhodes.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Photo credit of Beverley Knight: @Johan Persson

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Putting your head above the parapet. Ever done it? Said or done something you knew would have repercussions, however big or small? Well, today we're talking to and about several women who have done just that, starting with Caroline Noakes, the Conservative MP who has accused the Prime Minister's father

of groping her. Stanley Johnson has so far declined to comment on the allegation, saying he has no recollection of it. I'm going to speak to Caroline shortly about what's happened since she made that allegation and whether it's been worth it. Also, what have been the repercussions for her? But what about you? Have you ever spoken out when perhaps you were scared to or you'd wanted to for some time or maybe you've intervened if you've seen perhaps, I don't know, inappropriate behaviour out on the streets or on the train, on a bus or closer to home or perhaps it was in the workplace. Maybe you've called out a bullying or difficult boss in some way. What did you do and how did it go down? And was it the right thing to do?

And are you happy you did it? Or do you know it was the right thing to do, but perhaps you regret it? Maybe the cost to you was too dear. We talk about the need for especially women to be able to speak out, to be heard. But what about what happens next? Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or get in touch with me on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by the singer and actor Beverly Knight. We're going to be talking about women, power and music. And in terms of health issues, something that you have, some of you, I should say, have been getting in touch with us about, vulvodynia. Do you have persistent unexplained pain in your vulva? Women are living with this and talking about it more and more, and we want to understand

it. So we'll be hearing from someone who has suffered with it and someone who's studying it. And how one woman became the strongest in the world. Well, that was certainly her title. How could Joan Rhodes bend steel bars and rip up phone books with her bare hands? But first, last week, Caroline Noakes, former minister, Conservative MP and now chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, has accused the Prime Minister's father of groping her 18 years ago at a Conservative Party conference. She told Sky News that Stanley Johnson, who was a parliamentary candidate at the time,

smacked her, quote, on the backside about as hard as he could, allegedly saying, you've got a lovely seat. Stanley Johnson has so far declined to comment on the allegation, as I said before, saying he has no recollection of it. Caroline Notes joins me now. Good morning. Morning, Emma. What's it been like since you said that? I think it would be fair to say it's been good and bad.

I've had some amazing support from both my constituents and from women in and around Westminster. And I've been sent to Coventry by some and openly criticised in sections of the press by others. So, you know, very, very mixed week for me personally. But actually, for women everywhere, it's been a week where they've seen that however notionally powerful you are, you can still have these hideous experiences. And it's important that we are all prepared to speak up, that we are prepared to call out behaviour that is just inappropriate. You've called it out some years on, nearly 20 years on. Does that mean you've been thinking about this ever since? So I think it wouldn't be right to say I've been thinking about it ever

since. I have not dwelt on it. But the reality is that all of the various incidents that have happened to me and I have seen happen to other people do prey on your mind. And this year, more than any other year, we have been looking at the hideous incidents of violence against women and girls, the unwanted sexual harassment and touching that goes on. And, you know, I've just got to the point in my life where I thought it was imperative to call it out. So when people have said, why call it out now? It's that climate that we're in, nothing else specific that's happened to you

or perhaps you've seen, I don't know, Stanley Johnson again. I mean, what was the actual moment you thought, I'm going to do this? So, and I shouldn't plug somebody else's show on yours but it was when Beth Rigby spoke to a number of female MPs and spoke to me about the programme she was planning on doing which was absolutely about empowering other women to speak up and I think initially the conversation was around did I know any colleagues who might be prepared to take part and when Katie who produced it said would I be prepared to take part I thought about I thought well you know what over the last 20 plus years since I was first selected as a

conservative candidate way back in the year 2000 I've seen too much I've experienced too much and and what I wouldn't have known I wouldn't necessarily have known how or to whom to call it out 20 years ago. I do now. I have a platform and a voice now. And I don't want other younger women maybe entering politics, journalism or any other career. That's the stark reality. This can happen in any walk of life. I don't want them to go through what I've been through and what some of my contemporaries have been through. What did you do when he, as you say, as you allege, smacks you on the backside about as hard as he could? What did you say or do? I did nothing. And that's my shame and my absolute shame. I should have called it out

there and then. I should have told a man who is 30 years older than me not to do that. And it will be forever my regret that I didn't, because we've seen the journalist Alva Ray come out with a very powerful article in the New Statesman today talking about her experiences. And I'm sure... Can I just inform our listeners about that? So she's a journalist for the New Statesman. She's also made an allegation that Stanley Johnson

groped her at a very recent Conservative Party conference in 2019. He's also not commented on that. And I think it's to my shame that I didn't call it out at the time. I should have done in the same way that Alva, who's much younger than me, should have done, but we didn't. But collectively, we have a voice. And think that's what what i've gained most solace from is the the strength from other women whether they are in politics or not who've contacted me and said just thank you for having the courage to do that to me it didn't feel particularly brave um it just felt like something i had to do he said just on his response

if i may and and you know that point about feeling shame about what you did there'll be lots of people listening who it's a bit like when you have a row with someone, you can't quite think what to say back at that point. There'll be lots of people who can relate to doing nothing at that point. And sometimes, of course, being completely shocked and being in the moment and not knowing what to do. But in terms of his response, we have, of course, gone again this morning to see if there's anything fresh from Stanley Johnson. But we've been unable to get a new quote, but it's still this. I don't remember it. I have no recollection of it. And there's nothing else to say from his perspective, it seems.

What do you make of that as the response? Because I'm interested, as I say in my introduction, what's happened since. And part of that is hearing from the man you've made an allegation about. Well, it feels a bit gaslighting, doesn't it uh it wasn't memorable to him it was memorable to me and incidents like that are memorable to women who've experienced them and and it you know it makes you makes you wonder how often things like that happen to to every other woman um and and really that's that's my message is that we should all be braver about speaking out. We should speak out at the time and report it. And I think that's the interesting

thing, isn't it? If you could have your time again, what would you have done? So I think I would have gone to whoever was the chief whip or the head of candidates at the time and told them. Because actually, what we know is that we expect high standards of people in public life. And I think it is important that we uphold them. And I actually think that the Conservative Party has much better, much better complaints channels now. But I think it's important that you should speak up at the time

so that you can't suffer the criticism of, oh, well, she's waited 20 years. What's in it for her now? Well, nothing. There is nothing in it for me now. It has done nothing other than make my life a little bit worse. Is there anything you want from Stanley Johnson now? No, I think an apology would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. And Rachel Johnson, a journalist who has a podcast called Difficult Women, she said, I don't know if you've seen this, she's of course the daughter of Stanley Johnson, also the sister of the Prime Minister, so she's got a slightly different role within us of course talking about this, which I think is important to point out on this, don't always have to recognise those family

connections, but she said that you didn't really play up and play the game and has questioned that value of bringing up historic allegations. Have you seen that? So, no, I didn't read it. Two things to say on that. One, I like Rachel Johnson. I think she's a great journalist. And I did her podcast only a couple of weeks ago.

So I have no beef with Rachel Johnson. I do have a beef with using the phrase, play the game. What on earth does that mean? Does that mean that I'm the sort of woman that it's okay to smack the backside off? And if you're a perpetrator, if you're somebody who's going to go around smacking bottoms, then how do you decide which bottom you're going to smack? And do you know, you don't know whether I'm the sort of woman who's going to laugh it off uh not be affected by it or or i might have been deeply traumatized by that for years and and that's the reality you can't go around smacking bottoms without thinking about the impact on the

victim the person you're doing it to and so i'm big enough and tough enough to get over it i'm concerned about other women who might be being harassed at work, who might be experiencing that from somebody in a position, senior to them in their place of work, who hasn't got the courage to speak out. Just about the senior place at work, because we're getting some messages that will come to Caroline about the whole putting your head above the parapet.

Did you think twice because this is effectively your boss's dad? Yes, of course I thought about that. I also thought about how colleagues would react to it. I thought about how my own family would react. And I have to say, my daughter has been absolutely brilliant. And in many respects, I did it for women of her age. So, yeah, of course I knew that there's an added complexity there. Right. You know, you know, in the sense of not only is he your boss, he's the prime minister and it's his dad that you're talking about.

It's nothing to do with him in this instance, but just you talked about your colleagues and them reacting. I mean, have you seen the prime minister since you've made this allegation? Well, yeah, I got the opportunity to ask the prime minister a series of questions about violence against women and girls at the liaison committee last week. And how was that? Well, I mean, I think we can honestly say that wasn't an easy afternoon for me or him. But I thought that the prime minister did his best to answer questions professionally. I think he and I have a difference of opinion about whether public sexual harassment should be a specific offence. I think it would empower women to go to the police and report incidents. And I think it would demonstrate very clearly to perpetrators what is quite definitely beyond the pale. And so I think,

but it was a perfectly courteous exchange. And then the Prime Minister was very professional about it. Yeah, I just wanted to reflect on that, because there is a work element here and many messages coming in about how awkward it can be when you talk out within and yours is around workplace. Yes, it was at the Conservative Party conference, but that was part of your working life and remains so because you're there, because you're working within the party. Can I just ask about repercussions since you've mentioned there's been a range of responses. One of them is also this idea, and I wanted to understand a bit more detail around that journalists have been digging through your life, specifically your past sex life since you spoke about this. Why and how do you know that?

Well, so I think I could point to two particular articles and I'm not going to name them, but where journalists have kind of made the argument and one of them was actually a very good article and then went on to say, but of course, you know, she's not blameless effectively as the subtext. And look, my view on that is that in this sort of incident, it has to be about the perpetrator behavior. Let us not judge the victim. And by the way, I don't regard myself as a victim.

But don't judge the woman. Judge the man who has acted inappropriately, who has put his hands on somebody else without their consent. So it wouldn't matter who I was. And I go back to the question of how on earth do you know? How do you know whether somebody might be impacted by your decision to touch them inappropriately for the rest of their days? I recognise you don't see yourself as a victim in this particular instance, and that other people could or might feel differently. However, once you have a situation, as you allege here, that journalists start going through your life to see what kind of character you are and it calls into question you. How has that been for you? Because that's one of the repercussions.

And I'm trying to unpack whether people find it worth it to put their head above the parapet. So I think I think that's the real challenge, isn't it? That I stuck my head above the parapet i expected criticism i expected people to raise a very legitimate question why now why not uh 18 years ago what i didn't expect uh perhaps naively was people to to point fingers at me like in some way because of who i am uh i'd invited it i didn't um and and i don't invite it from anybody who's seeking to put their hands on me without consent. And that's and that's to me, I think that's been quite difficult to cope with, actually. And the way I get around that is I don't don't read them, really don't read the Twitter comments.

That's really a waste of your own time. But it's quite it's quite challenging. But as I keep saying to everyone, I'm really tough. I can take this. But I'm doing it for women who aren't and who are scared and who feel intimidated by people in positions of seniority to them and who need people like me to use the platform and the voice that I have to say, actually, you shouldn't tolerate this. You should be empowered to speak up.

And to businesses and organisations, make sure you have in place reporting mechanisms so that women feel empowered to speak up. Speaking about putting head above parapet in a different circumstance, last night, a Twitter thread from the author JK Rowling was going viral. She's broken her silence about some trans activists who went to her home. I'm not sure if you've seen this, posted photos of themselves showing her address. She asked people who retweeted the image to delete it. And she said she wouldn't be intimidated into not saying what she thinks about women's sex based rights. I suppose it's not necessarily about almost the topic, although, of course, we do and will continue to discuss that topic and also the topic that you've raised here about alleged groping and consent. But it's

also what it is now to be public and to talk and then what happens afterwards, isn't it? It absolutely is. And I would say that J.K. Rowling and I are very fortunate in that we're clearly very robust characters and we can cope with what is thrown at us but you know let's let's not forget that sometimes there is a deep underlying misogynistic trend is that let's drown out the women's voices let's talk over them let's try to cancel them in their entirety and that's just not acceptable so yeah sure she holds some very strongly held views, which she is not afraid to voice. And it's utterly unacceptable that anyone should go and try and publish her home address, which might provoke other people into taking much more unpleasant direct action. And it's sort of

this whole whipping up hatred over issues, which we're perfectly entitled to disagree with each other. But let's learn how to disagree politely and courteously and play out our differences and our debates in a manner which doesn't resort to Twitter abuse and posting pictures of somebody's home. And just finally, I'm very aware for you and your colleagues today that you're remembering David Amos, your colleague, your conservative colleague who was killed. And there is a mass for him, I believe, today. A requiem mass for David in Westminster Cathedral today. And Sir David Amess was absolutely the epitome of a courteous politician, somebody who had very strong views and beliefs, but always made his point with courtesy and with good humour. And I think we can all learn a lot from that. Let's disagree with each other, but do it politely.

Caroline Oakes, thank you very much for your time this morning. And a message I have to say for you from Maggie, who says, I did nothing and that's my shame. No, Caroline, that's his shame for putting you in that situation. No woman should have any shame for how they respond to sexual harassment. And many other messages coming in about when you have put your heads above the parapets, respectively, or literally. I just have to say, Stanley Johnson,

in terms of the statement that we do have, I have no recollection of Caroline Noakes at all. He said to Sky News, but there you go. And no reply, hey, hey, good luck and thanks. And with regard to Alva Ray's allegation that you're hearing there, the journalist from the New Statesman, he told the Sun newspaper, Stanley Johnson, I have no recollection

of Caroline Noakes, no idea what she was talking about. And had I been asked about the allegation made by the journalist at the New Statesman, I would have said the same thing. Hazel says, I share the issues about when to speak out. Many years ago, a man pinched my bottom in John Lewis of all places. I turned to face him and shouted, take your hands off my bottom.

He didn't make eye contact with me. The biggest shock, though, was that there was a momentary silence around me. And then people, women, looked away as if I'd done something shameful. Women need to support each other. Please, exclamation point there. Marie says, many years ago in my early 20s, I called out someone at my place of work who smacked my bottom in exactly the way as your current guest.

I did more than call it out at the time. I nipped it in the bud immediately, in my own particular way, and I probably prevented him doing this to anyone ever again. Marie, can you text me again and let me know? What did you do? Quite like a bit more detail there. I called out blatantly sexist WhatsApp messages last year

from my then boss in the civil service. Definitely the right thing to do, but very little action appeared to have been taken. And I ended up asking to move teams. So yes, it can be an impact to you or your own choice, I suppose, to make a change in your life. Keep your messages coming in. And that sort of debate that you have with yourself

about putting your head above the parapet doesn't have to be with regards, of course, to sexual harassment. It could be all sorts of things. I should say there's one here. I called out my bullying boss in the NHS. Outcome? He was promoted. I was ostracised and eventually left.

I don't know if you regret that though, but that's obviously what happened. Thank you for that message, of course. Feel free to get back in touch and let me know how you felt about that as well. But these are the decisions and the factors that come into when speaking out. Now, I did say we were talking about what happens when you do speak out. Well, Peng Shui is one of China's top tennis players, but there are continued concerns over her safety after she accused a top Chinese politician of raping her in 2018. In a since-deleted post on the social media site Weibo, she wrote, quote,

That post was up for about two minutes. She's not been seen in public since the post has gone out, excuse me, at the start of November. Her disappearance has prompted tennis stars Serena Williams, Naomi Osaka, Andy Murray to post on social media hashtag where is Peng Shui and free her. Even though emails and videos of the two-time Grand Slam doubles champion have been released by state sources, she's understood to have had a 30-minute video call to

with the International Olympic Committee on Sunday night. There are still doubts over her freedom. I'm joined now by the Cindy Yu, broadcast editor at The Spectator. Good morning. Morning. Just to give us a bit more context, what was that social media post that led to her disappearance? I quoted a bit of it there. It's quite complicated, actually, and I think quite in keeping with the theme of your program today because what she describes is a non-consensual start to what seems to be a consensual affair with the man for three years so she says that he forced her into sex that first time but after that that she kept up the affair with him for three years afterwards and you know she is at some point quite positive about him she says that during the good times, we can talk to no end, we play chess, we play tennis, and she strikes the image of someone who

was in love, but then they clearly, they seem to have had a fight at the end of October, which is what triggered this statement, and it was written in a very emotional way. But the emotions of it are so complicated. And she says this herself, She says emotions are complicated, as if just to say to people, you know, why are you questioning me being in this affair with a man who raped me? Well, she clearly has some feelings for him as well. So it's incredibly complicated. And she says that he is 40 years her senior, and that she tried to open her heart to her.

And there's a bit of internalized trauma there as well, where says you know I admit I'm not a good girl so she's blaming herself for everything that's happened to her and as if for continuing that it's her all her fault. A very complex and nuanced post which as you were explaining I think it's important to hear the fullness of that but it was only up for two minutes. Yeah very much. And it was enough time for a screenshot of that to travel around Chinese social media and international social media, which is how we can have the screenshot and the full statement. But since then, on Chinese social media, there's been a very complete censorship of pretty much her name, the statement, any discussion around it, which leaves the conversation to be had, you know, outside of China, essentially,

which is what's happened in the week since, as you mentioned, with those tennis stars getting involved. So yeah, a very important statement, I think, to understand the full extent of. How common is it for such high profile people? Because she really, you know, she's credited with putting tennis on the map, isn't she, in China to disappear like this? Actually, well, it's that you kind of notice it more, don't you? I mean, nobody ever knows how many people go missing in China in general, because that's not a figure that people are going to release. But when someone high profile goes missing, you do know about it.

So we had Peng Shui this year. But in 2018, we had the actress Fan Bingbing, who was accused of tax evading. She disappeared for a few months, then came back in this very scripted apology on state media to say, I'm sorry for essentially letting the country down. And now she's out and about. And there are also in the past business people who seem to have got on the wrong side of factional rivalry. So there's one woman called Whitney Duan, whose husband has written, ex-husband now, has written a memoir about their time together. And Whitney still hasn't been seen in public since going missing quite a few years ago. So, you know, high profile people, when they go missing, we know about it much more. What's your take on where she is now, her safety, the veracity of some of the videos and emails?

Because the Women's Tennis Association have been clear on their take on this. They say they've not been able to speak to her since her post. The chief executive of the WTA, Steve Simons, said in a statement, while it's positive to see her, it remains unclear if she's free and able to make decisions and take actions on her own without coercion or external interference. I have been clear about what needs to happen and our relationship with China is at a crossroads. Yeah, and I think he's completely right about that. Just because we've seen a few videos of her doesn't mean that she is safe in the full sense of the word. She's clearly, you know, physically fine. She's not locked up or

anything like that. Or, you know, not for those videos. and I personally think that she's probably under something like house arrest. I think that she has had her independent means of communication taken away from her which is why the WTA hasn't been able to call her directly on her phone and I think what's interesting is that in some of these videos you see her friends and her coach you know with her co-opted by state media essentially in in filming these things so i think that in a very chinese way the collective has been brought on to put pressure on this particular individual her social network has been co-opted maybe to even live with her in her house just to say you know you don't want to pursue this do you've got your career ahead of you and so that's why we

see this backpedaling i think um and i don't think she's going to pursue these allegations, you know, if and when she gets more normal. One thing to note about the video is that in one of them, when she's in a restaurant, it literally starts with someone off screen saying, OK, OK, now is perfect. Then two seconds of silence. Then the coach starts speaking as if it's not the first take that they've done of this particular remark. And then they couldn't be bothered to cut out the director's cue

from the beginning of the video. So it's all incredibly scripted, and I don't think it shows that she is free. What do you think is going to happen to her? How do you view this playing out? I mean, of course, there's discussions about what should happen with regards to the Beijing Olympics. Less than 100 days away, they start in February.

I mentioned that the International Olympic Committee managing to get that video call, and I'll read a bit of their statement in just a moment. But kind of coming away from what this means about China and international relations and sport and the Olympics, will she be able to go back to being a tennis superstar, you know, and have her life? Or will there be ramifications, do you think? I think she can if she drops these allegations. So the official line in China is, look, Peng Shuai is safe. It's just Western media hysteria.

Yeah, at the same time, they don't acknowledge or recognise the allegations that she made. To that, to them, that allegation. To one of the most senior politicians in the country. Exactly. And, you know, we've had a foreign ministry spokesperson, Zhao Lijian, saying that, you know, I don't recognize those allegations you're making. So they're completely ignoring it. They're pretending it never happened,

which goes along with the censorship line. And I think if Peng Shui wants to have a career in China to continue, then she will drop allegations as well. You know, the whole thing will be papered over as if it never happened. And then the Chinese side will play it as if it's a story of Western media hysteria, wondering where this woman is, even though there's so many video footage of her. So we see here this narrative that's been developed for the domestic audience in China right now. Cindy Yu, broadcast editor at The Spectator. Thank you very much for your take on that. And of course,

we've been talking and we'll continue talking about the repercussions of speaking out. Of course, highly dependent on also where you live and the politics of where you are and censorship laws, as we can see, or rules regarding what's going on in China and this particular case. I mentioned that at an International Olympic Committee statement, talking about a call that they say they had with Peng Shui, one of China's top tennis players. The main purpose of the call was to inquire about the well-being and safety of Peng Shui. In the 30-minute conversation, she was very clear in confirming she's safe and well. She also mentioned she'll be taking part in some activities with friends and family

and will continue to be involved in tennis. Safeguarding the well-being of athletes is paramount to the Olympic movement. We've agreed to stay in touch and she agreed to meet in Beijing in January. And we've also made it clear, should she get in touch when she deems appropriate, we will continue to remain in contact with the Chinese Olympic Committee. At the same time, she's asked her privacy be respected in all aspects. So please understand, in order to respect her privacy, we will not be commenting further. While you've been commenting and getting in touch about when you've spoken out and what the repercussions have been

in all sorts of scenarios and whether you regretted it or whether it was the best thing you did or perhaps somewhere in the middle, things are not always that clear. Yes, I spoke out to my karate teacher who teased a young student for several minutes about her performance, including calling her a loser. I spoke to him privately and he dismissed me. I felt stunned. I didn't know what to say.

I left the class. I never went back. I was 55, says Elspeth. Stunned and never going back. A lot of people here are getting in touch. I'm noticing, you know, you have to take an action to move away from whatever the situation is or you find yourself ostracised. I was groped at a dance. I said to him, if you ever do that again, I'll scream. He did. I screamed. Everything stopped and I shamed him in front of everyone there, says Jane. Thank you very much. Keep those messages coming in. And also this particular message that's just come in, which I know will intrigue my next guest, because it's with regards to makeup for black actors after an issue on a theatre job. Well, who better to talk to in many ways about having a voice and holding your voice than Beverly Knight, the singer and actor. She's starring in The Drifter's Girl, which is currently on stage at the Garrick Theatre in London. Of course, like so many productions, it was delayed from last year due to the pandemic, but it tells the story of Faye Treadwell, one of the first black women to manage a vocal group in the US.

With the death of her husband in 1967, she decided to continue managing the Drifters on her own. And the musical tells the story of her struggle to make the group successful in the face of ongoing racism, sexism and legal battles. Let's remind ourselves of one of the Drifter's greatest hits. Under the boat north Down by the sea On a blanket with my babies Where I'll be Good morning, Beverly Knight, who plays Faye Treadwell.

I'm going to be very familiar with that song, I'm sure, before you joined this particular group. Absolutely. Very familiar. Very familiar with many of the Drifters songs, I'm happy to say. Absolute classic, classic music. Just gorgeous. Love the songs.

Is that why you were drawn to this particular role um initially um you know the the music is obviously very compelling um but i have to say um the the idea for the musical started with faye treadwell herself so for me um the big interest was actually getting to play this utterly formidable woman who just did incredible things at a time where women were expected to stay home and, you know, wash the dishes and, you know, mind the children and all of that. So I'm just so proud. Tell us a bit more about her because we're talking about a time when she has to take over here. It's in the 60s. Is that right? That's right. George Treadwell died in 1967 of lung cancer. And at that time, you know, as I say, women were expected to, quote unquote, know their place um and she decided to take on the management of

the drifters and it was her who took them to global superstardom because she was a brilliant strategist you know she thought on her feet um and she was formidable she took no mess from anyone and this was unheard of at that time absolutely unheard of added to that she was a woman of color a black woman who grew up at a time where um black people under seg you were under segregation you know jim crow um was was alive and well when she was born she was born into Arkansas, the state Arkansas. You know, that was the state that famously had the Brown versus Board of Education battle to integrate schools.

She saw it all around her. But as a woman and as a woman of colour, she just fought through. Nevertheless, she persisted and she really won. Yes. And she had to make a lot of sacrifices, didn't she, in terms of her own family to do this? That's right. Tina Treadwell, her daughter, was left behind at home while she went to London to manage, you know, as closely as she could, the careers of the drifters at a time where their star was beginning to fade in the US. So she took them to the UK and ignited the second wave of their success. And as a mother, that must have been a hard, hard wrench for her.

But she did that. And she did that because she wanted to leave a legacy for her young daughter, not only to provide her with financial stability, but to say to Tina and subsequently to many other women, women she wouldn't have even have known, to say, you can do this. You can forge your own path if you stick to it. You know, there is nothing you can't achieve. You just need the opportunity to do it. And Tina took that and ran with it. Well, I mean, this is a lot about, and for what you're saying here, about what she had to do, I suppose, to try and make a success here,

to keep a success going, to revive to try and make a success here to keep a success going to revive uh their their acts and make sure that they were popular again and experience success but how did they take it how did the the guys that she was managing deal with suddenly having a woman manage them having had her husband well it's an interesting thing. We see in the show, we see the battles that she has with various members of the Drifters who came and went and came and went. They drifted. For all kinds of different reasons. All sorts of drifting.

They drifted in, they drifted out. And, yeah, some certainly didn't take very kindly to being told what to do by a woman, not only the very band members, but, you know, record label bosses. And in return, the music industry, as we all know, is an industry that is dominated at the decision-making level by men. And yeah, when you have a woman, a forthright woman who is not afraid to speak her mind and is in a position of power whereby she can speak her mind,

it doesn't always go down very well. Well, hang on. And it certainly didn't. You know, but you know all about this, don't you? Because you've had your own experiences. I was having the joy of listening back to some of your music this morning. And, you know, so many of your songs I know and so many of us know. And I was particularly listening back to Gold. And I know that you were very clear what you wanted with that particular song.

And people can go and listen to it. So's so beautiful, absolutely gorgeous to listen to again. And it's one of those things that you've experienced very recently about how to have your sound and make it your own and have those clear ideas accepted by men around you in the creator of your own art but other people want to tell you or impose their idea of what your art should look like and sound like to you um it's so important to keep i believe a control of your own musical output or any artistic output, because then whatever the public say about it, you can take it because it's your vision. But if you acquiesce to the ideas that somebody else has imposed upon you, and, you know, for some reason it doesn't work out, you'll always look at yourself in the mirror and say, why did I allow this to happen? Why? And I knew that from a very early age.

I was determined that the music I was going to make was the music I wanted to make. Subsequently, it's meant that my career has been a slow and a long burn, you know, that path to success, but it's one that I'm happy with, because it was within my control. And everything that the public got to hear, as much as possible, of course, was what I wanted the public to hear. And yes, specifically with that song Gold, which was so personal to me. I'd written that, just me on the piano.

I didn't want someone coming in and saying, well, actually the production has to sound like this. No, I wanted the production to sound simple and stripped back like the emotion of the song. And I certainly didn't appreciate being blamed for the fact that the producer at the time was not happy with being told by the songwriter and artist you know what to do especially when he was the one who walked out the session I wasn't having that at all I got my own way in the end so

I was happy. There's so much I could ask you about not least I was reading that David Bowie was a mentor and I know you've worked very well with lots of men as well as having perhaps some of those moments um that must have been uh incredible but I did just mention if you don't mind me going to this we've been talking throughout the program of women using their voices and and not just women we've got some men who've been in touch but mainly women we are women's and people um what's happened with repercussions and and if they've been okay with that and there's a message here saying i'm awaiting a response to an email it's taken me weeks to write and sent regarding the sensitive issue of makeup for black actors after an issue on a theater job i feel like i'm holding my breath waiting for them to respond and growing angry at their non-response thus far all the more galling because they had

said that they how aware they were of this issue. And that's from Carol, who's written him. What would you say to Carol in the sense of, I know that you've seen progress on this, but it is also important, isn't it, I suppose, to write those messages and say something? Absolutely. It's such a crazy thing that in 2021 we still have an issue with um makeup and issues around hair you know for black women specifically black women because our hair is very different you know um the and especially the the darker you are the issues are magnified, you know, with makeup.

It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. Don't drop the issue, I would say to Carol. She absolutely must persist with this. Gosh, I mean, I'd love to know more about what's going on, to be honest. The journalist always is nosy, but everybody always wants to know a bit more when they hear a little bit, don't they? And then, well, perhaps we'll speak to Carol and we'll find out a bit more. But I just wanted to share that with you because I know you've had a lot of experience and it will be useful for her, hopefully. And maybe, you know, real, real help to her to hear what you have to say, Beverly and I.

And also, I've just got to ask you as well, news out this morning, the Brit Awards scrapping male and female categories. What do you make of that? Oh, wow. Have you seen that? Okay. I'm just hearing that when you're in a show, some of the news passes you by and then you're always kind of a few days behind

the curve. Well, men and women going head to head. So some worry it'll be worse for women. Will men win more of the awards awards i just wondered what you made of that beverly night an interesting one because as i said earlier um it's it's a it's an industry which at decision making level is um very much dominated by men i remember um and this is going back 20 years ago, admittedly, I remember being part of a Talking Heads panel for a TV show which was celebrating the music of the millennium. And it was the public voting on, you know,

the most influential people of the past millennium and overwhelmingly um you know the the great artists the artists that were most revered were men and there was a there had to be a specific women's category just to get women in there but the category that I remember was the greatest songwriters and there wasn't a woman among them and I was like Carol King Kate Bush no no one no okay anyone anyone heard of these people anyone anyone so often that's how it it goes you know um I understand the thinking behind um wanting to remove um. I totally understand that. But then what happens is often a lot of things just fall to men. So it'll be interesting to see how that works.

I presume this is next year with the Brits. Well, watch this space. That has been some of the concerns. And it's interesting to go back and use that experience and your memory of talking about that. And when women perhaps do get edged out. We'll see how it goes. Beverly Knight, good luck with The Drifter's Girl.

As I say, on stage at the Garrick Theatre in London. All the best to you. And thanks so much for talking to us today. There you go. I think we just heard absolute pleasure there. But slight mute on the line there. But very, very nice to hear from Beverly Knight there and to Carol.

I hope that gives you a bit of grist to your mill. Many messages also coming in about putting your head above the parapet and using your voice. I will come back to those in just a moment if I can. But talking about using your voice in a medical setting, have you ever been affected by persistent, unexplained pain in your vulva the outer part of female genitals well we've had a number of emails from you our listeners who suffer from something called vulvodynia a chronic condition that can leave some women unable to have sex sit down work use tampons even wear underwear because of burning pain and soreness but there's very little known about what causes it and how to definitively treat it or even how many women it affects.

Find out a bit of, hopefully find out a little bit more. I'm joined by Claudia Casari, a PhD researcher in vulvodynia at King's College London and Sharon Gulber who suffered from vulvodynia for 10 years and is the trustee of the charity the Vulval Pain Society. One welcome to you both. Sharon, just to start with you, can you explain what it feels like? It differed from day to day. So sometimes it was like a raw acid, like burning or stabbing, cutting sensation. I remember describing as, and this is a little bit graphic, but almost like someone had put a knife up my vulva and just turned it. It was really excruciating. And other days it was more like a pulling, gnawing sensation. So it differed from day to day. Sometimes it was excruciating, sometimes not quite as bad.

And it was always there. It was unprovoked vulvodynia for me, which means it's kind of always there in the background. And then things like sitting and walking aggravated it and then there were days where just lying down or standing up I just couldn't find a particularly comfortable position. It must have affected you know every aspect of your life of course depending on how the symptoms were that day. Yeah absolutely and. And concentrating was hard, living with that kind of pain. And then by the time I was put on medication, it really was like walking through a fog.

So that didn't help either. I was studying law at the time. I dropped out of uni. I tried a number of part-time jobs. And with each of those, it just became too difficult to manage because from day to day, I didn't know what the symptoms were going to be and what I was going to be able to do. So over time, the pain spread and I even started passing out from the pain. So things really worsened until I stopped work altogether. I really felt like I dropped out of life. Gosh, and you're now on the other side of that, would you say? What was the thing that helped you?

I want to go to Claudia in a minute to explain a bit more about it. But what was it for you that helped? I think as with many other people, it wasn't just one thing. It was multifactorial for me. It was stopping using SLS and soap and additives in biological laundry detergents. I had a hypertonic pelvic floor, so physio. But prior to either of those, because I was so sensitive, the thing that helped me was self hypnosis, but it took me 10 years to get there. And that was just to calm things down enough so that I could then try the physio. And anything really that gets people focused on values-based goals is going to help. And that's what it was for me, is plugging back into life and what mattered to me,

and actually talking about it for the first time, because the stigma around it meant I didn't open up and I hadn't talked to anyone about it. Because I just felt like, had I done something wrong, I felt some shame. And then finally breaking through, it was a mix of modalities and cognitive hypnotherapy that meant I broke through that. Thank you for sharing that. And thanks for coming on the radio, you know, national radio to talk about it.

You've definitely obviously come a long way in terms of talking about it. And I know that from our listeners, this is a really important discussion to have. Claudia, what do we know about the facts of vulvodynia and what can cause it or how it comes about? So we don't know exactly

what causes vulvodynia. We know that it's considered a syndrome, which means that there are many factors that may play a role together. We know that are potentially musculoskeletal factors, so maybe pelvic floor dysfunction. We know that there might be a nerve involvement.

We know that there are psychosocial factors perhaps involved, but we don't really know exactly what causes it. And that's what makes it a tricky condition, unfortunately. But there seems to be, in terms of how you treat it, a mixture of things that you can do, whether it's, some people have talked about cooling gels, not wearing knickers, like things that are physical. And then there's also the psychological way of treating it. Yeah, absolutely. Like in all pain, the best approach is multidisciplinary. disciplinary so when you add sort of medications and perhaps lifestyle changes to also psychological inputs and so yeah you can you can use a cooling gel like you were a cooling gel like you've been saying lidocaine is quite helpful sometimes for some women you can use physiotherapy as well to

help the pelvic floor and then you can use course, talking therapy or antidepressants and anticonvulsants. And we don't know very much about this as a society. Why is that? So there might be many reasons why. I mean, vulvodynia is, first of all, a diagnosis of exclusion, which means that you might have vulvar pain for an infection or some other reason, but vulvodynia is without an explained reason behind it. So it may be difficult to diagnose it, to find out that it is vulvodynia indeed, rather than another infection or thrush or something else. At the same time, I feel like because it's genital pain, there might be another sort of, I suppose, societal and cultural factors related to that. We know that women with genital pain often don't feel validated in their pain, don't feel believed in their pain. And this is not just a picture of vulvodynia, you know, in endometriosis,

we have similar, similar issues. So it might be that it's also because vulvodynia is invisible as well. And like many invisible illnesses, sometimes it just doesn't get diagnosed. Thank you for that. Just the final word, if I can, to you, Sharon, do you want to say to somebody who's listening to this, who may be suffering and may not even know there's a word for it is there a message of hope that you could give because so much of this is is you on your own yes and I think um to feel that you're not on your own um there is help out there it is finding the mix of therapies that might work for that individual person um so it may take a little bit of time, but certainly go and speak to your GP. The Vulval Pain Society provide resources and

practical advice and information for people living with vulval pain, and also for healthcare providers, which I think is important because the education needs to happen on both sides. And this is a common problem. We're talking at least one in seven women in their lifetime will experience verbal pain. Most do get better and some will require treatment. So seeking out help and being OK to talk about it. And there are resources on our site to prepare for that consultation. I was going to say, we'll share resources on the Women's Hour website as well.

Thank you so much to both of you this morning for coming on and responding to some of those emails that we've had from some of you, our listeners, and I hope that's answered some questions and also made you feel heard on all of this. But I did mention right

at the start of the programme about a particularly strong woman. Strong women are plentiful. We have to be, you could argue, but ones who can bend steel bars, rip up phone books with their bare hands, not so much. Joan Rhodes could do those things as well as lift two men at a time and her act was honed as a teenager on the streets of London in the 30s after she fled home, having been abandoned by her parents. Joan Rhodes became popular in theatres

and on television across the world in the 50s and 60s and often described in the press as the strongest woman in the world. She also became friends with Marlene Dietrich and even performed for the Queen and Prince Philip at their annual Christmas bash. What a life. What a story. Of course, that's why it intrigued the journalist Triona Holden, who got to know her before she died and has now written her biography called An Iron Girl in a Velvet Glove. The life of Joan Rhodes. Good morning. Hi Emma. What a story. How did you meet her? You met her in her 80s, is that right? I did, yeah. It was through my husband who's a doctor and he was doing a locum and he went along to sort of chat to her. And it was a time I was researching a book for strong women because I got

really rather sick of the whole chick lit thing and that sort of nonsense. And I thought there were really powerful women out there. And he sort of chatted to her and she told her story as she would. And he came home. He asked her if it was okay if I got in touch so I did and I went to see her in her a mad garden flat in um Belsize Park and I walked through the door and that was it really I was gone I fell in love with her she became like a mother and a bestie really or she in her 80s she was so powerful and still beautiful and there's's something magical about her. You know, when you meet somebody and you click with them. She was that lady.

And the stories she told. It's really interesting listening to the story of Faye Treadwell because Joan was like a predecessor to that. She was on the streets of London in the 30s, prancing around in a tiny skimpy bikini. I mean, she was born in 1921, so she was very young, 14 when she started busking. So she must have shocked all the society and so on,

but she just did what she did. She wasn't having anybody busk her around. But she realised she needed her own act because she was collecting for others, for guys on the street, wasn't she? It was called bottling, and she had to come up with something. But why on earth did she come up with breaking nails and bending steel bars and how on earth did she do that well it's a really good question i mean the first the first bit of the question yes she there's a guy called big jock and he was a strongman and she bottled for him

which means collecting the money and um he taught her how to to bend bars and what you basically was it was a nail you use um you have to put a kind of like a piece of cotton around it because it gets very very hot but she had that strength and he spotted that she had an innate strength and she went on from there and built her own act and she had to this is survival she was on act. And she had to. This is survival. She was on the streets starving. She had nothing. She literally had nothing. And so she had to learn how to do it. Now, was it real?

Yes, I believe it was real. I've actually got, I inherited some pieces from her. I've got a steel bar that she bent with her mouth and her arms. Wow. And I love handing it to men in particular and saying, go on and have a go, straighten it out. And of course, they fail miserably. And the same thing with nails.

Six-inch nails, she could bend them and break them. And her hands, I mean, they must have been raw or bleeding, certainly, because she was very glamorous, like you said, and also was very keen not to get too muscular. She was. She trained at something called Mickey's Gym and she was training in particular not to build the muscles. You can see in some of the publicity shots, you can see her upper muscles, but she had a 22 inch waist and she could pick up a man, two men, one in each hand. She could pick them up. Seriously.

And you can't fake that, can you? No. And when men did question whether it was real or not, she'd just pick them up. Yeah, yeah. There's a lovely story. Solly Black, she wanted an agent, and Solly Black was a big, big agent in the kind of 50s.

So she went along to where he was at this club and everything, and he said, well well I'll take you on but you've got to show me what the trick is so she just picked him up with one hand and walked around with him held over her head obviously and she obviously he became her agent and the royal the royal family also enjoyed her her act yeah they did she appeared appeared for the Queen and Prince Philip at Windsor Castle. It was the kind of annual staff do. And she he came up on stage being the gentleman that he was. And she she was very sweet with him and he tried to bend the nail. And she said, oh, well, he's got a little bit of a kink in it, which, of course, got her into terrible trouble.

But she just giggled about it. You know, she laughed at everything, did Joan. And in terms of, you've said a little bit of the reason of why you wrote this book. Are you hoping, not necessarily to inspire the next generation of strong women, although maybe you could, but what are you hoping to achieve with making her story better known? I believe that Joan was what I would call a functional feminist, right? Which, and this is my definition, which is somebody who just got on with it.

She didn't make a fuss. She didn't burn bras. She didn't have any of that kind of political, in fact, she was apolitical. She just got on with her life. So she ran her life as she wanted to from a very early age. She wouldn't have anybody tell her what to do. This was in the 20s and 30s in England. You know, you can imagine this. Talk about Faye Treadwell.

You actually got someone here who really was at a time when women were chained to the kitchen and to actually appear on the streets in skimpy outfits and then on stage in skimpy outfits again. You know, she she had to develop that. She had to sort of keep going. And luckily she could physically break the chains if needed. She could really do it, yeah. Triana Holder, we're going to have to leave it there. Absolutely fascinating to hear all about Joan Rhodes. The book is called An Iron Girl in a Velvet Glove, The Life of Joan Rhodes.

Thank you so much for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. have appealed for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett. It's been concreted over and forgotten. The worst of it is still to come. This is only the beginning. She's right. It wants to suck me down into the void and destroy me. And not just me, everything. I'm the only one here at night. What if it comes for me next? If you really want to understand something, you have to go right to the edge. What is it? Is it something real?

It's coming towards you. Sarah, it's right there in front of you. Sarah. Harland, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

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