Woman's Hour - MP rape allegations, Mothers' march, Melissa Caddick

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

An unidentified Conservative MP has been accused of rape by several women. These allegations are mentioned in a new book by former cabinet secretary Nadine Dorries. It comes after reports the Conservative party's former chairman, Sir Jake Berry, wrote to the police to make them aware of the claims after leaving the post last year. The deputy Prime Minister, Oliver Dowden, has denied a cover-up by the party when he was the chairman. Emma Barnett hears the reaction of Isabel Hardman, Assistant Editor at The Spectator, and Conservative MP Caroline Nokes, Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee.A group of mothers under the umbrella of Just Stop Oil are planning a slow march to demand an end to new oil and gas licences and to call for a secure liveable future for their children. Just Stop Oil's tactics around the country, from blocking roads to halting theatre productions, are controversial. Emma is joined by two of the protesting mums. When con woman Melissa Caddick vanished from her luxurious eastern Sydney home in November 2020 - with only her partially decomposed foot found washed up on a beach months later, it set off a frenzy in Australia. Regulators suspect the 49-year-old stole nearly £16m from more than 60 clients, including many of her family and friends, to help fund a lavish lifestyle. Chief investigative reporter at the Sydney Morning Herald, Kate McClymont, joins Emma to discuss.We hear about a development in the case of Agnes Wanjiru, a 21-year-old Kenyan woman who was found stabbed to death at a hotel in the garrison town of Nanyuki in 2012. Witnesses said she was last seen leaving the hotel bar with a British soldier, and her body was found in a septic tank at the hotel nearly three months later. A Kenyan judge concluded after an inquest in 2019 that she had been murdered by one or two British soldiers. As yet, nobody has been convicted. Kenyan police have now flown to the UK to question British soldiers and officers about the case. Emma speaks to Sunday Times journalist Hannah Al-Othman.Sarah Whalley is the producer and director of Forests, an episode of Planet Earth III. She was pregnant during filming and chose to name her child Forest. Sarah talks to Emma about how the isolation of her pregnancy during lockdown was mirrored when they filmed a Hornbill bird in its nest for the first time.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It's good to be back with you after a few days off, which included scintillating acts such as cleaning out a shoe cupboard and trying to have some photos printed. As well as, I should say, eating some delicious meals, delicious cuddles with our children and a particularly competitive and funny game of articulate with some good friends. Well, I hope we're still friends. I'm asking this morning about your downtime because the singing and acting legend that is Barbara Streisand has been talking about her life after writing her memoirs. And one thing she said stuck out. Have a listen. I want to live life.

I want to get in my husband's truck and just wander, hopefully with the children somewhere near us. When they come over, we have fun. I haven't had much fun in my life, tell you the truth. And I want to have more fun. Barbara Streisand there. A rare insight into perhaps how she feels about things. Speaking to my colleague, the BBC's music correspondent, Mark Savage, are you having enough fun in your life? Have you assessed it?

Are you looking around and thinking of maybe the week ahead? What pockets of fun am I actually going to have as opposed to the jobs I need to do, the job you actually have, the other things that are always on that to-do list. Tell me, perhaps there was a moment where you realised you needed to up the fun quotient. What have you done and why? Get in touch. Text me on 84844. I've had an idea about learning how to roller skate. It's not happened yet, obviously. But you know, it's meant to be fun. It could be awful. I could do all sorts to myself. I'm not very coordinated anymore. But let's see what we get to with that. Fun in your life. Even Barbara Streisand, who's brought so much joy to people's lives. If you are familiar with even just one of her songs, her voice can do something to you. We're hearing from her on a rare interview.

She doesn't think she's had enough fun in her life. What about you? Do get in touch. 03700, that's the number if you want to WhatsApp or voice note, or drop me an email via the website or on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Give us some ideas too about what's brought the joy back into your life, if perhaps it was lacking. Also on today's programme, talking about perhaps doing things different, two women are joining me on this programme on Women's Hour before they form a protest as part of Just Stop Oil. As the government announces oil and gas licences will be sold every year under Rishi Sunak's new law as a head of the King's Speech tomorrow, they are doing it as part of a mother's protest group. What has made you take to the streets? Do you get in touch on that? And a new development

in an international case we've been following for two years as a woman's family fight for justice. We'll have that for you. And why one bird wants to seal herself into a hole with mud. And the woman who helped capture this amazing footage will be here. But it sounds quite tempting. But right now, as I talk to you, there is a conservative MP who has been accused of rape several times. We know of this allegation because of a new book by the former Cabinet Secretary, Nadine Dorries. It comes after reports that the Conservative Party's former chairman, Sir Jake Berry, wrote to police to make them aware of claims after leaving the post last year. According to the Mail on Sunday, Sir Jake told the police that one alleged victim was receiving treatment at a private hospital

paid for by the Conservative Party. He is also reported to have written, We are aware that this matter has been ongoing for over two years. We also believe that there are up to five victims of this unnamed MP and that the failure of others to act has enabled him, referring to him as ex, to continue to offend and to victimise women. The Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden in interviews yesterday denied a cover-up by the party when he was the chairman of the Conservatives, but he could not say for certain that the party, the party of government, did not pay

the alleged victims' hospital bills. Well, earlier today, I was joined by Isabel Hardman, assistant editor at The Spectator, and I asked if people in Westminster, in that world, knew who this man was. Yes. I mean, look, there's a few MPs who have had allegations against him in the past few years where it is either known or assumed to be known within Westminster who that person is and the problem with a lot of these cases is that sometimes journalists have spoken to complainants I'm not talking about this particular case but there have been other cases where complainants have been in touch with journalists and journalists have found them

to be very credible but have ended up at the sort of final hurdle not being able to report an accusation or not being able to name the accused MP for various legal reasons and so it then becomes something that is known and remarked on with some horror I think um by journalists I mean I um I remember her a few years ago um an MP who a number of us had spoken to an alleged complaint a complainant who'd been making allegations uh this MP came up to a group of us at a drinks event and uh we all just walked off um because we just couldn't face talking to him um now that's really frustrating because actually you know we're journalists we're not a judge and jury um and we report things as we um as we feel we can stand them up and source them and so on

um and when due process hasn't followed uh reporting that's really frustrating for us as well uh because we feel as though the system has let down the people who have come to us who are very vulnerable who uh deserve a better process than the one that we've seen in a number of cases recently. I wanted to ask though about what the British public, I'll come back to that process question just if I can, but if I can about what the British public can understand about who's telling the truth on the process side of it, though, you know, in terms of the Conservative Party. Yesterday, Oliver Dowden, the Deputy Prime Minister,

talking to my colleague Laura Koonsberg, has denied that the Conservative Party covered up a number of rape allegations against one of its MPs. Yes, at the same time, there's reports that the former chairman of the party, Sir Jake Berry, wrote to police to make them aware of claims after leaving the post last year.

And according to the Mail on Sunday where this came out, according to Nadine Dorsey's book, Sir Jake told them that one alleged victim was receiving support paid for by the party. What can we take as true? In this case, I honestly don't know. And I haven't been party to this case. And I don't want to make claims that I don't know the substance of. I think the really the frustrating thing here, it's not just the party's complaint systems, which I think, despite the insistence of senior figures in both. And this isn't just the Conservative Party, you know, the Labour Party as well, that they insist that they've really improved their complaints processes, that actually victims are, alleged victims are given much more support and proper process. And there's, you know, removal of political interference and indeed parliament's

complaint system i think there is still a very low level of confidence from all those involved in complaints and i i mean those who've been accused as well that these processes are moving at an appropriate pace and so on but but actually you could make exactly that complaint about the criminal justice system and about the police um and i've certainly spoken to uh alleged victims over the past few years inside and outside of parliament who feel that the police have not taken their complaints seriously um and you know that might be because ultimately there's not been enough evidence or it might be because actually, as we well know, and as you've reported on extensively on this programme, the police can often struggle to take victims seriously when they deserve to be taken seriously.

And they often lack a trauma informed approach to these cases. And so there's a sort of systemic failure here that actually you can end up, and lots of victims would say this, you can end up going from one organisation to another and being let down at every stage. It's just unclear again if the victims, those who are making these allegations, if they went to the police

or went just to the Conservative Party for action? Yeah, and I mean, this is one of the difficult things is that obviously the Conservative Party and the Labour Party and indeed Parliament's complaints process, it's not a court. It obviously has a very important disciplinary role if someone working for it is alleged to have raped somebody. But it is not the criminal justice system. And I think in a sense, it is particularly ill-equipped to deal with those cases because of the seriousness of them and because they go far beyond implications within a workplace. I mean, you know, you obviously are not going to send someone on acceptable behaviour training if you find within your internal processes that they raped someone. And I don't think the processes have quite worked out what to do in those cases, particularly if complainants don't

want to go to the police. I mean, that can happen as well. Isabel Hardman, assistant editor at The Spectator, speaking to me just before I came on air. Listening to that, the Conservative MP and chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, Caroline Noakes. Good morning. Morning. What's been your response, Caroline, to these allegations? I think it's hard to decide whether the response is horror or despair. Despair that we are going through this again. And I can remember, I think it was in June

of 2022, saying to the then Chief Whip, look, you have to have a really transparent process in place. So if somebody comes to the Whips with a complaint, regardless of who they are complaining about, or regardless of who the complainant is, it's just a process that needs to be followed. So you can have none of this kind of murkiness around, oh, well, this could be useful for political leverage, or, well, X is a really nice chap, I can't believe it of them. No, just follow a process, and it should be a cross-party process. Are you shocked by this, though? If I can just keep the of them. Look, just follow a process and it should be a cross-party process. Are you shocked by this, though? If I can just keep it a human, just go, we'll come back to process in a moment.

I suppose it's that human reaction of, you know, this has come out in, I don't know what you think of it coming out also in a former cabinet minister, Nadine Doris's book. And then it's in the newspapers and then we have this extra detail. But what's your reaction to this happening potentially or being alleged? Well, it's horrific horrific it's absolutely horrific and there are a bunch of questions instantly spring to mind. One why is Jake Berry only writing to the police about it after he has left his post as chairman of the party? Why and what help has there been to the victim who suddenly found themselves featuring in a book? Was there any support given to her ahead of publication so that she could have at least had some warning that this was coming out?

Why on earth, when somebody comes with a complaint that is this serious, this is rape that is being alleged. It's not a sort of a minor indiscretion. It's not inappropriate language. It's rape. Why on earth, when that complaint is made either to the party chairman or to the party whips, is that victim not being taken straight away to the police? There are lots of questions. What we do understand is Jake Berry asked a Downing Street advisor and a senior MP alongside with one of the whips, Wendy Morton,

to launch an internal investigation into these allegations. And a report by the two investigators seen by the Mail on Sunday newspaper warned that the case had been handled so poorly that the Conservative Party could find itself criminally liable. Well, it's horrific, isn't it? And completely unacceptable that any investigation. And I really, I really question what political party is capable of investigating rape. But it's just, you know, my sense is one of horror and of despair that still we haven't got in place a mechanism that will support victims,

that will make sure that individuals who are accused of horrific acts are not still free to wander around Parliament, free to meet with their constituents in constituency surgeries where it may well be one-on-one. And also why the independent complaints and grievances scheme is still not acting fast enough because we know that when complaints are taken to that, often it takes in excess of two years to get a resolution. How serious do you think these allegations will now be taken by the party? Have you had any understanding of the response from the very top, from Rishi Sunak?

No, I haven't. And in all fairness, these allegations came out on Sunday. I've spoken to a couple of colleagues, but not to anybody senior. I suspect that when I arrive in Parliament later today, there is a long list of people who I will be seeking meetings with, starting with the Chief Whip and Greg Hands as the party chairman. But we just have to do better at protecting and supporting women who are working in and around Parliament. And that's the bottom line. We cannot have an atmosphere where women do not feel safe around the corridors of Westminster. Well, this particular quote from Jake Burry's letter, which says, we believe there are up to five victims of this unnamed MP and that the failure of others to act has enabled him to continue to offend

and to victimise women. I mean, you're not going to break any rules here. I know we are live on the radio, but I did ask Isabel Harbin if people would know potentially who this individual was. And it is quite shocking for those who are far from the Westminster bubble to find that those working in it, whether as journalists, civil servants, MPs, often do know who's being talked about. Where do you find yourself on that this morning? Well, and absolutely, I do know who is being talked about. However, there will be many others in Westminster who don't. And certainly my phone was buzzing last night with people asking

me, who is it? Who is it? You know, I'm not going to divulge that. but I am deeply concerned that no action was taken effectively enabling a perpetrator to continue to offend look my select committee is doing a load of work at the moment around the escalation of offenses and the stark truth is that the first offense is never rape the first offense is um I mean still significant and horrific for the victim, but it's never as serious as rape. And so by remaining silent, by not taking action, you, in too many instances, enable perpetrators to escalate their behaviour and you leave victims vulnerable. Again, those far from this world, though, may also say they're hearing a lot about process, but just taking a step back. If you go to the police, then you're in a system where, you know, they also would like not for the media and for the MPs to be judge and jury.

They want the criminal justice system for all of the alleged victims was concerned about her reputation by going to the police. And, you know, again, I know I'm quoting quotes, but I'm trying to paint an image here of what we do know. Look, it's the stark reality of life of today, of rumour, gossip and innuendo. There is too much victim blaming. That's absolutely at the heart of why victims are scared to come forward. In politics, many people are very ambitious to have political careers of their own. And they are afraid that if they speak out, they will be seen as the problem. They won't be seen as a victim, they'll be seen as a problem. How do we resolve that? We don't want to damage XYZ MP. We want to make sure that this just goes away. Now, look, the only way you can make serious sexual offences go away is through the criminal justice system. And we have to empower victims

to be brave enough to come forward. And I recognise that that is a challenge in itself. But we have to make sure that our political system is giving the support to victims that encourages them, helps them through that process. And I vividly remember when a brilliant woman called Anne Milton was the deputy chief whip. And there was a similar issue with a former Conservative MP. Anne went to court with the victims and she supported them through the process. And that's what we need to see now. Caroline Noakes, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. Conservative MP and Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. That story will surely develop. We'll keep with it. We have approached

the Conservative Party for comments. I'll bring that to you before the end of the programme, I hope, if there is an update on that. But it is striking, of course, to hear that the individual who has been alleged to have committed these crimes is known, not just at least by the political journalist I just spoke to, but also the MP you were just hearing from, who's the chair of the Women and Equalities Party, no less, which gives you an insight into this, perhaps in some ways. You're getting in touch with me this morning also, having heard the words of Barbara Streisand, not someone we hear from very often or certainly beyond her singing voice. She's given a rare interview to my colleague, Mark Savage, the music correspondent here at the BBC,

and quite strikingly has said, despite being Barbara Streisand, with some of the most, I'm sure, incredible things at her disposable, not least some brilliant people that she'll know in the entertainment industry. She says she's not had enough fun in her life. You are getting in touch talking about what fun you've tried to build in. And I think we all need that on a Monday morning where, you know, there's quite a lot going on, which seems the exact opposite. So a message here, which says, when my daughter hit 23, having been a single parent, I suddenly realised I'd put my fun on hold. So I decided to always accept invitations, stop therapy and stop overthinking. Amen to that. I've studied and started art history courses, got an allotment and I'll go to loads of gigs, sometimes alone. I seek out fun people. I avoid those who drain energy and I let go. I'm now 63 and I feel freer than I have ever felt, says Rachel. Five years ago, reads this message, I moved to a village where there is a six bell tower in the 12th century church. I started bell ringing at the age of 59

and have never looked back. Such fun. Also great exercise, didn't know that. Great for the brain. Great team activity, cheap. And it's wonderful to be part of these ancient buildings. And this particular message, no name on this next one, but I can very much relate to this,

having done something quite similar with my five-year-old over the last few days having fun during a very wet weekend in kent we made a cardboard fort in our eight-year-old son's bedroom and had lunch and dinner in it together roomy and then we battled with pillows and soft toys much laughter and fun all around we actually made a car um out of ours and didn't eat any food in it but that would be a nice thing it wasn't quite enough room but we piled in the the nine month old and you get the pro, you get the idea, you get the vision. In the King's speech tomorrow, though, let's set our minds towards that for a moment, because the government will introduce a bill that will award licences annually for oil and gas projects in the North Sea.

Ministers say projects would have to meet net zero targets and that the policy would guarantee energy security. You may have heard Claire Coutinho, the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero on the Today programme earlier on Radio 4, speaking about this and why it was important. Environmental groups are opposed to the policy. Today, a group of mothers under the umbrella of Just Stop Oil are planning to, quote, slow march in London

to demand an end to new oil and gas licences and to call for a secure, liveable future for their children, as they put it. Around 100 people were arrested in connection with Just Stop Oil protests in London last week alone, over 50 charged. The group's tactics around the country from blocking roads to halting theatre productions are controversial. Two of those mothers protesting today have just walked into the Woman's Hour studio, Jill Tavner and Anna Oliver. Good morning to you both. Good morning.

Jill, if I could start with you, why come together and why come together as mothers? I think what's driven us to come together as mothers is love and desperation, to be honest. And we see there's sort of everything's going wrong. Our job as parents and as mothers, and as you'll understand yourself, we try to keep our children safe. And we do everything we can to teach them to cross the road safely. But what's happening is their future, the world in which they're going to live, is being controlled by decisions made based on to us greed and profit

and we we just need to bring back that decisions need to be based on love and securing our children so what we're trying to do is just stop oil say you know oil versus people people versus oil but to me it's sort of greed versus love and the main sort of discourse is all about profit and more oil and it's really hard for the voice of love and maternal love in particular to break through the discourse. And so we're having to, it is desperate because we don't know what else to do, to get ourselves out onto the street. In order for our children's voices and our voices and our calls for a livable future for our children to be heard. And it seems to be the only way to challenge the dominant discourse and the dominant way we're going, which feels the wrong way. Anna, for you, why do this?

I've reached a point where my terror for my children's future is sort of, I feel it on a very visceral level and I feel that I can't sit back and passively watch the kind of broken politics around this issue. I feel like we're kind of sleepwalking into a catastrophe, you know, which is happening now. And extreme weather is getting more and more common and um over the summer seeing so many videos and images of um floods and forest fires I found so alarming and um so I went along to a just stop oil um welcome meet and felt so relieved to find people that were feeling as anxious as I was about it so when I heard that there was a mother's march today I just felt like that was the obvious thing for me to join in on.

Do you think you'll get arrested? I think that there's a very high chance of arrest today. Because I described I'm not saying where you're doing it but I described a slow march so there's no interference with a theatre production or that but there is stopping of traffic or what would be the reason Jill while the police may get involved from your perspective? What I understand slow marching itself isn't illegal which is really why we change that why I say we just stop we'll change the tactic to that however this new section 7 that the government used last week or the police used last week says that any major disturbance of one of the main thoroughfares, I'm using the wrong words, but basically any A or B road, any interference with those is illegal. So that's why?

Yeah, it's not the slow marching that we're being arrested for, it's for being on the road and interfering. But you will be stopping traffic by doing this? Yeah, well, not to a dead stop. We move slowly. And, you know, obviously, we do move slowly. But there's another part of me. And that's another question. Are you concerned about being arrested? Yeah, I've never done it before. It's horrible. You know, I'm a teacher. I'm a good girl. And to find yourself in this absurd situation, really, of having to be on the other side of the law in order to speak out for what... Well, there are different ways of speaking out. Some may say it's absurd to slow march. Yeah, and...

They may say you're... Not why you're doing it, but your form of protest is not the one that they would do. I think there are so many parts to a possible answer. One is we have tried a lot of other things. Each of us as individuals, you know, it's been a long time.

I haven't suddenly said, yeah, let's do this. I'm going to get arrested. And, you know, I've done cycle rides with XR, I've written letters, I've signed petitions. XR, Extinction Rebellion. Sorry, yeah, Extinction Rebellion. And nothing's changed. Things have just got worse. I've done this over 20 years. I wrote a book about climate change with a climate change scientist and nothing's changed. So we've had 20 years of this getting worse. so if there is an easier way and a better way

I would love to know because that's what I'd prefer to do than this this is horrible having to do so you've got I mean you say you're doing this as a mother and I know your children are actually older than than Anna's but but are your children on board with you doing this do they support it do they for instance support their mother getting a criminal record potentially they're proud of me they're worried of me. They're worried about me. And they're embarrassed by me. All those things as children are. Yeah, I mean, they're bright.

They're both away at university. They know what the world's looking like. And they're proud that I'm trying to do something. But as well, it brings to the fore all their concerns about it. So they are in support of what you're doing, not necessarily how you're doing it? They haven't really. No, they're fine with how I'm doing it. They are as well. It's just interesting if you're doing it as a mother to hear about the person that makes you a mother. Yes. No, no.

That make you in that position. We have, of course, heard from the government this morning talking about even the experts in this field talk about when we reach net zero, when we hopefully reach net zero, we'll still need oil and gas for part of our energy needs. And so, Anna, you know, when Jill was talking there about love and how to think about this, you know, love would also be a warm home. Yes, but they're talking about reaching net zero in 2050, which is far too late. And we know that we've got a narrowing window of time in which we can try and stall things before we lose absolutely everything that we love.

But why a slow march? Why does that achieve what you want? That's what I'm always interested in, why people have chosen the particular protests they choose. It's very, very small. But we do know from previous protest history that disruption leads to discussion and discussion leads to change. But the people who need to be listening are this particular party, this particular government. What evidence do you have, I say to either of you, that that is what will ensure that these particular politicians from this particular political party will listen?

I think we're not doing it because we know it'll work. We're doing it because there's a chance it'll work and because it feels the right thing to do whatever we can. If we weren't doing this slow march, we wouldn't be here having this discussion. And I do wish there were ways, I mean, it's absurd that we're having to do this and risk arrest in order to argue that we need a livable future. That, you know, licensing new oil and gas is a sign of how broken the system is. Well, it's a renewal each year and there's a check there the government say about making sure that the net zero targets are reached within that. Yeah, I think if we kick...

And it's about our energy security in light of the war in Ukraine, that's more important than ever. Yeah, I think if we... And it's about our energy security and in light of the war in Ukraine, that's more important than ever. Yeah, I'm not a politician. No, no, no, I'm just presenting when you're talking about this. Yeah, we have thought it through a lot. And yeah, energy security is important. I think it's something of a red herring

and the investment that's going into subsidising oil and gas development rather than, you know, that investment could go into renewables and that would bring about energy security. But even if it was going to secure our energy for the future, it's also going to release more CO2 into the atmosphere, which is going to exacerbate all these problems we see globally. And actually, the climate is reaching, the Earth's systems are reaching several tipping points. We might be kicking this can down the road.

In 2050, we might no longer have control as humans over the Earth's systems. They will move beyond our control. I'm also just thinking of those who aren't mums who might be listening, thinking, I also care about the future. Why, Anna, do you think it's important to march as mums? I mean, is that some very cynical say, well, maybe you're hoping to elicit more sympathy? I think that we, as a collection of people, it feels like a really powerful message because the government aren't looking after the future of our children. And it's simple. It's that we need to look after our children and we have that maternal responsibility to look after them. And the government aren't doing that because the system is so broken.

Yeah, what do you want to say? Yeah, there are two things as well. I mean, basically, a few of us came together and we were discussing our concerns about the climate and we realised that everything we're saying was about our children. And, you know, even those children, some people's children were 40 because we've got some grandmothers with us today. But everything we're saying was about our children and our grandchildren.

And we thought, actually, that's a really powerful voice and it isn't actually one that gets heard very much in this sort of debate. And we thought, well, yeah, obviously we're doing this because we do want to make a difference. And if you have this chance of gathering a collective voice to fight for a future, because at the moment it doesn't look very bright for any of our children. And added to that, I think you might know as a mother, you sometimes think, what will I say in the future when my children say mum what did you do when you knew and I want to be able to look them in the eye said I tried and it might be that things are better and I want to say I was part of that and if things don't get better I want to say I really really tried no I just think there's something striking about you know the idea that it's a

I know you're not saying this but they can't it could be seen as that only mothers care about the future because they've got children. You know, that in itself, some women will find reductive. I suppose any message you give that could be argued about, you know, I know the dads did a small march last time. Well, no, but that you have to even have an offspring to think like that. Oh, yeah, but we wouldn't argue that case at all. We're also here because we're part of Just Stop Oil and anybody that cares about this issue can come to a welcome meeting and get that information. Just because we're talking at the time of a cost of living crisis and also what people are thinking about the public purse,

I was looking back at how much it costs the Metropolitan Police to come across, if I could put, or get across the Just Stop Oil umbrella, because there are lots of marches. Over a 13-week period, it cost the Met Police more than £7 million in the summer. Do you have any concern or guilt over that? I just wonder how much it costs to clear up flooding. In the last week, we've seen people's homes flooded as a result of storm Kieran. And, you know, extreme weather events are going to be very, very costly.

And the investment needed by the government to make sure those areas are, I suppose, in that area. We could continue. There are many questions. You're going to slow march now. And I suppose it's quite a strange thing, as you do, certainly in your case, Anna, have younger children. You might not be going straight home, depending on what happens with the police. No. How do you feel about that as you go off? Just a final thought. I'm pretty scared. It's the first time that I've that I'll be taking action today.

But I don't feel like I have a choice. I feel like I have to be here to fight for my children's future. Well, that's very clear. There's a grandmother who's just texted in saying how much she supports you. Oh, thank you. And there you go. There'll be other messages, I'm sure, on that. But there'll also be other messages.

We do like hearing from our listeners. Thank you very much for coming to Woman's Hour today. Thank you. Jill Tavner there and Anna Oliver. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now let me take you to a completely different place, if I can. A woman called Melissa Caddick disappeared three years ago having stolen an estimated nearly 16 million pounds from her clients including family and friends over a period of eight years sometimes referred to as the Australian Bernie Madoff. She too ran a Ponzi scheme on a much smaller scale but still as devastating for those whose money she took. Many of the investors or her victims continue to fight to get some of their money back and have now launched a class action against the auditors who they feel were not keeping a close enough eye on their money. Let's talk to a woman in the know on this, very much in the know, Kate McClymont,

the chief investigative reporter at the Sydney Morning Herald, who's followed this story for years, including now presenting a podcast called Liar Liar, Melissa Caddock and the Missing Millions. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Kate. Thanks very much, Emma. This story, it does continue to, I mean, there's a new development, as I just said, but there's such huge fascination in Australia and actually around the world. Do you think part of the fact that she was a woman doing this is key to that in some ways? Look, I think it was the fact that she was a woman doing this is key to that in some ways. Look, I think it was the fact that she was a woman doing this, but also adding to the mystery was the fact that she disappeared. So as you pointed out, the federal police and our corporate regulator ASIC raided her house on the 11th of November and within hours she had vanished and what added to

the mystery was that her husband at the time took 30 hours to report her missing. So three months later her foot or part of her foot in a shoe washed up some 400 kilometres south of Sydney. Now that just sparked so much speculation as to had she cut off her own foot, had she staged her murder, because it was interesting talking to her victims who said Melissa Caddick was the most organised person and they believed that she had an exit plan. So all these things fed into an incredible mystery. You know, was she still alive? Was she hopping around on one leg in the Mediterranean,

you know, with loads of money as people were speculating? So it was a combination of things that made it an incredible mystery. And as you say, she is presumed dead. That's the understanding. Well, there was some. So three years later, there was a coronial inquest which decided that they couldn't determine the manner of her death. She lived near a very famous suicide spot called Begap, so 100 metres from very steep cliffs. So it is presumed that she took her own life at these cliffs, and that perhaps the 30-hour delay in her husband reporting her missing. And there's no suggestion that he was involved or that he knew anything, just that I think he didn't know what to do, so he did nothing.

And, you know, there was scientific evidence given at the inquest that it was possible with tidal currents for a body or parts of a body to be transported all that way. But anyway, the coroner determined that she was deceased, but exactly how remains a mystery. If you look at some of the cases of the victims here, though, they had an idea that their money was safe. And there was one particular individual who'd sold their business under the impression their money was safe. They retired. But they then learned that Melissa Caddick had also stolen the mother's money, the wife's, the mother-in-law, the son, the brother and sister. She'd wiped out three generations of family savings just to give a bit of colour, if you like, on one of those incidences.

How did she do this? Well, I think this is the fascinating thing, was that she only preyed on family and friends. And therefore, there's a level of trust. You don't expect your friend to do this. And that one person that you're talking about was one of Melissa Caddick's oldest friends from her school days. And Melissa knew that her friend was a single mom, was supporting two children.

And yet here she was taking her money, taking her brother, her mother, the rest of her family. And there was a really moving story about this friend invited Melissa Caddick to her 50th birthday party. And Melissa arrived in a dress that I think would be worth, you know, 1500 pounds in your money. And it was, you know, some horrible designer dress that people were sort of laughing about. And at this party, Melissa, you know, or her friend said to Melissa, I can't thank you enough for all the things that you do for our family. And Melissa looked at her in the eye and said Kate that's okay it's just what I do. So it wasn't until she disappeared and I wrote a story saying look Melissa Caddick's just cut and pasted monthly returns instead of having an eight number um comsec account which is our leading online stockbroker melissa caddick's victims only had six and it was only then that her family and friends started

ringing me or ringing the bank to say oh my god i've just discovered i'm a victim they did not think even when she went missing, they thought that there was some minor problem with all the terrible misunderstanding. So I think the horror of people realising they had lost everything and this was their friend, their cousin, their niece who had done this to them. And have they been able to get any of the money back? Look, they've managed to get back between 25 and 30 cents in the dollar, because even though Melissa Caddick spent the money on an extraordinary, extravagant lifestyle. She also used her victims' funds to buy a house in an exclusive eastern suburbs community. And that has just been sold for almost $10 million. And as we

speak at the moment, an apartment, a penthouse apartment she bought for her parents, that's also going to be sold. And also there were jewels were sold, her expensive handbags, her shoes, her artwork, her cars, they've also been sold. So money will be returned to the victims. I mean, it'll still obviously be a huge thing for them emotionally and what they've been through as well. And I suppose it's now with you looking at this, with all the detail that you've got, what do you kind of conclude or learn from this, do you think? What can we? Look, I think it's one of those things that never go into business with a friend. But it was also interesting that when I first looked at this, there was nothing really in

any newspapers or any social media about Melissa Caddick. The last thing she'd ever done was an interview some 10 years earlier, warning people about what to look for in a financial advisor. She said, people make up their qualifications, they're unlicensed, don't trust them. And it was everything that she was. She faked her degrees. She wasn't a qualified financial advisor and I sort of thought if those people had actually taken Melissa Caddick's own advice they might not have found themselves in this situation but it's that old thing too that if something looks too good to be true then often it is. Kate McClymon chief investigative reporter at the Sydney Morning Herald thank you also a podcast that you present called Liar Liar, Melissa Caddick and the Missing Millions.

As I say, there is now a new class action against the auditors. Some of the victims have put that together who feel that the auditors were not keeping a close enough eye on their money. But some very interesting things to hear them reflect on. Just talking to the two individuals we heard on their way to do a slow march as part of a Just Stop Oil protest as mothers coming together. In what way is the women's protest raising anything

other than hurting a lot of people trying to get on with their lives in difficult times? I've waited at bus stops with people trying to get to work or doctor's appointments, but unable to do so by these protests.

And another one here, they're saying inspiring to hear the mums marching with Just Stop Oil. If we invested in renewables, we would have much better energy security than continuing to invest in fossil fuels. And going back to my original question about your downtime and how much, if you were to draw out a pie chart of your life and how much fun there is on that percentage,

what's going on there after Barbara Streisand says she's not had enough fun in her life in quite a rare interview with my colleague, Mark Savage. There's a message here which says, I think women have fun socially trained out of them. If you look at men's hobbies, they're still able to collect toys, play video games, etc. Women are encouraged to give up toys as soon as possible and become more responsible. From an early age, girls are expected to be caregivers and to look after other people. They're not encouraged to prioritise themselves. Fun is seen as selfish if you're a woman.

We often feel guilty through no fault of our own for having fun and doing things that give us joy that don't give others joy. There's a lot to think about in that message, a brilliant message. Thank you very much for that. And I think a lot of people, myself included, will agree agree with some of that especially around the guilt side of things um my husband always brings the fun his most recent purchase was a 1976 German fire truck which he's going to convert into a camper van our neighbors have been both amused and bewildered and another one in my journal like Barbara Streisand I long identified a distinct lack of fun in my life and a need to

create more before it was too late. I'm 66. So along with my husband, we sold our family home in the southeast. We bought a doer up near the sea and old friends in Cornwall. The new house is currently uninhabitable. So we're living in a shepherd's hut in the garden with our two dogs, having given away much of our furniture and possessions. We're loving every moment and the freedom from responsibility is liberating, says Susie. I have to say, I do hear from quite a lot of you here

that you're maybe discovering this a bit later, not too late, but a bit later in life. So maybe we can all learn to get to it a bit faster. Keep those messages coming in and still messages coming in about protests and about my very first story today, about the first story we covered around the Conservative Party

and allegations around an individual MP that has been accused of rape, not named. This is in Nadine Dorsey's book, the former cabinet secretary. And I should say, I said I'd come back to you with a statement from the Conservative Party. We have one now, which is no comment. Now to a story we've been keeping track of for the past few years through the reporting of the journalists I'm about to talk to, amongst others, what has happened to a woman allegedly at the hands of British soldiers. Agnes Wanjiru, a 21-year-old Kenyan woman, was found stabbed to death at a hotel

in the garrison town of Nanyuki in 2012. Witnesses said she was last seen leaving the hotel bar with a British soldier and her body was found in a septic tank at the hotel nearly three months later. A Kenyan judge concluded after an inquest in 2019 that she had been murdered by one or two British soldiers. And yet nobody's been convicted. Kenyan police have now flown to the UK to question British soldiers and officers about the case. Let's talk then to someone who's been following this since the beginning,

the Sunday Times journalist Hannah Al-Othman. Hannah, good morning. Morning. Just before we go to the latest update on this, a reminder on who Agnes was. So Agnes Wanjira was a young mother. She was a hairdresser who lived in the Kenyan town of Nanyuki but like a lot of other women who lived in this very poor garrison town Agnes Wanjiri would sometimes sell sex for extra money she had a young daughter Stacey she needed that money to feed and clothe her daughter. And so sex work in Kenya, in that town, was a little bit different to how it is here.

It was more common. And so she was a sex worker, but she was a lot more as well. She was a sister. She was a mother. As I say, her primary job was a hairdresser. And what do we know about her death? So Agnes had been in the Lions Court Hotel in a bar. She was drinking, dancing, laughing, socialising with British soldiers and two friends. She was last seen by these two friends who were also local women going off in the direction of the bedrooms, which was sort of a short walk away from the bar area with one or more British soldiers. And she was never seen alive again. And no one's been convicted? No one has been convicted. So her body was found two months later.

It had been stuffed inside a septic tank on the grounds of the hotel. She'd been stabbed. By that time, the regiment in question, the Duke of Lancaster Regiment, had already flown back to the UK. They left Kenya in the days after the murder. There were sort of investigations at the time, but they weren't particularly thorough. But what we discovered when we started investigating this a couple of years ago is that the name of the alleged killer was sort of widely known within the regiment. It's been a source of rumours, gossip, discussion ever since. And now the progress that we talked about,

I talked about at the beginning introducing this, Kenyan detectives have flown to the UK? Yes, so there has been sort of very little actual progress since we revealed, we spoke to a witness who was another soldier in the regiment at the time who gave a very stark testimony about what he'd seen that night being shown Agnes's body. He claimed he'd reported it to people within the regiment. But since then, nothing had really happened. A lot of those holdups were diplomatic in that the witnesses, the suspects that are in the UK, it's Kenya's jurisdiction, there needed to be a framework in place, a mutual legal assistance framework agreed. Kenya still has the death penalty,

although in practice it hasn't been used since the mid-1980s so that would have prevented the UK from extraditing the suspect if they got to a position where he was charged. I believe that part of the framework that has been agreed is that Kenya will not seek the death penalty in the event of a conviction. But now that appears to be in place. The Kenyan police have flown over. We know of people who are quite central in terms of sort of having been there on the night, have given statements to the police. They're being supported by the Royal Military Police,

the UK's sort of army police force. And this is now with the Kenyans to take on? Yes, so it's their jurisdiction, this case would be tried in Kenya, but obviously due to the nature of it, they need that assistance from the Royal Military Police to identify people, to facilitate those interviews. And that has now happened just within the past few weeks. Statements have been taken. Hannah L. Othman from the Sunday Times has been covering this from the beginning and revealing much of this.

Thank you to you. A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said, This case is a priority for the UK government. We fully appreciate the seriousness and importance of justice for agnes the jurisdiction for this investigation lies as you've just been hearing with the kenyan police service therefore all inquiries on the progress of the investigation should be directed to them the uk government is working closely with the government of kenya to accelerate progress the uk's defense serious crime command and unit are proactively engaged with the kenyan police in support of their investigation where appropriate.

And in order to protect the integrity of that investigation in the interests of justice, it would be inappropriate to comment further. And then the woman that we are talking about who has lost her life at the heart of all of this, let's not forget that, is Agnes Wanjeru. Let me add that, having concluded that statement from the Ministry of Defence there, I should say. The Ministry of Defence with that statement will bring you more on that story as we have it. But I did mention right at the beginning of the programme when I also talked about what you've been doing in your downtime and some of you still getting in touch with some of your brilliant things, which include women's football sessions, having been inspired the lionesses and aqua zumba classes some of you also getting in touch to talk about the importance of nature in your life and i'm sure that will be something that sarah wally can refer refer to and relate to because she's the producer and director of

forests an episode in the third series of the b mega-hit natural history programme Planet Earth, with Sir David Attenborough, of course. Sarah's episode explores how different species work together to survive in forests around the world, as well as the incredible lengths animals go to to protect their young. Sarah, good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you? I'm all right. And I was just noticing in some of the details around your episode that you were pregnant during the filming of this.

And your husband was also there as a cameraman working on the episode. So quite a time to be looking at how the species live. Yes, it's a bit of a family affair, really, wasn't it? Well, for you, I suppose you had some moments which really stood out for you with that particular context. Tell us a bit about that. And I know you're also working during the pandemic. Yes, I think my favourite moment has got to be the, what you mentioned at the start with the hornbill sequence, they're brightly coloured birds that have a big beak that's a bit like a toucan. They mate for life and a couple pick a hole in a tree and the female sort of seals herself in with mud and stays in there for months relying completely on her partner for food um so my

favorite moment of filming was was getting our first glimpse of those oriental pied hornbill eggs um just putting a camera inside a nest to film their amazing nesting behaviour hadn't been done before. And so it was a massive crew endeavour, both from the UK and the local team in Borneo. You know, we had to get the timings right, pick the right trees. We rigged quite a few, often at heights of around 30 metres. And all this in a way that we knew wouldn't disturb the birds. We worked with local scientists and in the end it took about six shoots to get the sequence. But it really was so precious to see this intimate view.

And as you said, it really resonated with me as I became a mum on the series. And after living through all the Covid lockdowns, I kind of related to that female being trapped inside. Well, also, I think you may have wanted it at times, you know, just wall away the world with some mud and have a bit of a sanctuary. Yes, yes, of course. That's always nice, isn't it? But then eventually her chicks hatch,

so she's sort of captive with her kids, which I think a lot of people related to in lockdown life. And of course, you have to be completely reliant on your partner. Yes. To feed you. Crucial, crucial acts there. And you also named your child. I know you're OK with me saying this. Something relating to that time as well. Yes, we it was it was a coincidence that i ended up working on a on a forest episode but um we'd always liked the name forest um so yeah me and me and my husband called our our first

first son um forest forest right so forest really really is born of this time yes absolutely absolutely what is it like though to i know that your background's in zoology and conservation, but but capturing those moments, as you say, being as mindful as you can of the safety and not disrupting those environments. What is it like to have that access and that window? I think it's it's it's really it's really important to get your timing right. You know, these these series have a massive crew endeavour. It's it's not get your timing right. You know, these series have a massive crew endeavour. It's not just me out there. We, as you sort of mentioned, we filmed during COVID and the Forest episode actually did a lot of remote shoots.

We had a lot of countries that were in places that we couldn't still get to with COVID. So 15 of our 19 shoots in total were remote. So in that sense, being pregnant helped in a little way because it meant that I could direct a lot of shoots from my phone and my laptop at all times of day and night. But when I couldn't get out in the field, I also had this amazing team behind me of assistant producers and other directors who were able to go on the shoots that I couldn't.

As, of course, a lot of a lot of remote jungles have a lot of tropical diseases, which don't always lend themselves to being being sensible to go to for pregnant ladies. What do you miss about being in that environment when you come back to reality, about being in the forest and being amongst that? I think it's just being contacted, isn't it? I think even in really remote places, you can still be contacted nowadays. We have amazing phone receptions and signals and email access most places we go now. So when you do get to a location where you you can switch off from all that it's really nice I bet well we're hearing quite a lot about people wanting to to switch off or find ways of switching off in in different ways are you having enough fun in your life just finally I think so yeah I was thinking about it when you mentioned it and I

think it's it's important to get a balance isn't Well, I don't know what you do apart from not sealing yourself off in a walled, muddy, walled hole like this birth that you found yourself perhaps relating to. But it's lovely to have the benefit of your work and also the whole team's work. And so many people are enjoying it around the world with Planet Earth 3, that mega hit. And you're listening to Sarah Wally there, one of the directors of one of the episodes. Thank you for all your comments and your fun this morning. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Sean Keaveney and I'm back with a new series of

Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4, the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird, me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world. And it is warm. It is warm, but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days.

But will I make it out of the front door? Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean Keaveney

on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.