Woman's Hour - Mums at breaking point...

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

The pandemic has pushed many working mothers to breaking point. Juggling family and career is nothing new, but working a full-time job while simultaneously home schooling children for many weeks is unprecedented. A recent TUC report revealed that women are shouldering the lion's share of this responsibility, and that a lack of employer flexibility has left mums in an impossible situation. So how are these women coping? And for those that aren't, why do they feel so reluctant to talk about their struggles? Emma Barnett speaks to mum-of-three Annie about her experience. She's also joined by Sam Smethers, who recently stepped back from her role as chief executive of the Fawcett Society, and Leann Cross, the Director of Homestart in Greenwich. Christine Keeler: the woman who nearly brought down the government in the 60s. She had an affair with Secretary of State for War, John Profumo, when she was just 19. In an unconnected court case, but one which is also linked in a complicated saga, she ended up being sentenced to nine months in prison. She had been found guilty of perjury and obstructing the course of justice in the trial of a man who her son, Seymour Platt, says was obsessed with her. But now Seymour wants a pardon for his mother. Next month he'll send his legal application to the Lord Chief Justice. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Sam Smethers Interviewed Guest: Leann Cross Interviewed Guest: Seymour Platt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Shrove Tuesday it may be, and while you may be looking forward to flipping some pancakes this evening, perhaps you've already done it actually. If you are, if you're doing it, watch your topping, do tell. I'm thinking of deviating from lemon and sugar for the first time. But for others, the thought of making yet another meal and one which may end up with mess to clear up is not one to savour. On today's programme, we hear from one woman who wishes to remain anonymous about how hard she's finding homeschooling her three children, working full time and doing it while her husband is out at work in a job he's not allowed to do from home.

Her emotions are raw and she feels guilty even saying any of this, because as she puts it, she knows there are people far worse off than her. And yet she's really struggling. Pre-pandemic, the phrase doing it all conjured up images of parents working and raising their families and just about getting through. Now add no schools for most into the mix, it brings to mind a whole other level of scraping by. Perhaps this resonates with you. What things about lockdown are perhaps pushing you close to the limit? And if you don't usually feel you can or should or ought to complain about them, you can hear today on Woman's Hour. Vent, share, or just know, even if you don't want

to get in touch or don't feel you can, or you're too busy to, you are not alone. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate and we may call you back. So on social media, it's at bbcwomanshour or email us through our website. And if you do wish to talk to me,

leave your number. It'd be lovely to have you on air in voice as well as message. And we you do wish to talk to me, leave your number. It would be lovely to have you on air in voice as well as message. And we've already got a lot of messages coming in on this, to which I shall return. But also on today's programme, Christine Keeler's son will be explaining why he is seeking a pardon for his late mother. So we'll be welcoming him soon to the conversation. But next week, the Prime Minister is due to outline

a highly anticipated plan for reopening schools in England. Speculation is that it will be the 8th of March, ending what will have been a whopping nine weeks of homeschooling since the latest lockdown. This has placed immense strain on families, many of whom are already working 40-hour weeks. A recent TUC report found that women are disproportionately picking up the slack when it comes to children, but are not being given enough flexibility by their employers to fit it all in.

This leaves some women effectively doing two full-time jobs at the same time. And we wanted to give voice to this unique moment in our history. Meet Annie. Well, that's what we're calling her anyway, as she needs to remain anonymous because she felt uncomfortable complaining about her loss in the first place and was scared her employer wouldn't look too kindly on it either. Here's what she had to say

about the toll that literally doing it all is taking on her life at the moment. Yeah, so I've got three children, one and a half, nearly five and eight year old. And yes, I'm currently trying very hard to work full time at the same time as them all being at home. And you're at home as well? Yes, so I've been working from home, obviously returned from maternity leave in the middle of or just as the pandemic started. But since I've worked from home the whole time, I actually had a situation, me personally, where I was finally working part time and had, as they would put it, an opportunity forced upon me where there was a promotion that I was encouraged to go for because my current job would be made redundant.

So I either went for that option or left. And obviously, so I obviously have to work so I had no choice so at the moment I do work full-time. So you were actually put in a position where you were given an ultimatum how long after returning from maternity leave? Yeah about three months. And that's a time where we've got our children at home. Yeah, exactly that. I think it was all those things combined, which is what's, for me personally, just pushed me pretty close to the brink recently. But yes, I think it's the being done too

that was the hardest bit about it. It was totally out of my control and not a choice that I would have made at that point in time. When you say about the brink what does that mean? I think for me personally and I think we always caveat this with we know that there's people in kind of worse situations and tougher situations on the front line but for me personally this has been really really hard um I feel completely conflicted between trying to be a mum and do that as best as I can um anyway and trying to to work full time and I have great pride in my job and I I I'm passionate about my career so I want to do a good job and then for me the the tipping point is this attempting to try and homeschool at the same time.

And again, take pride in that and knowing that I want to set that example and show the kids that it's really important to work hard. But attempting to do all three at the moment just feels completely impossible. And for me, it feels like it's falling as the female feels like it's falling on my shoulders. Your husband works but can't work at home. Is that right? Yeah. So he works in an office that has to be open at the moment. And there was absolutely no negotiation. It was a fact that he has to work in that office. And again, it kind of comes back to this. You sort of, I know how lucky I am to have a partner and he emotionally is a brilliant support to me

and does what he can when he can, but he's not here for the working week from, you know, eight until six. He, at the end of the day, he's not here. And it falls to me. Have you tried with your employer? Have you said, this is really hard or do you feel like you can't say that because you're scared you're going to lose your job? I don't necessarily feel I'm going to lose my job, but I feel like I would be seen to be not coping.

And so for me, for my employer, they're not asking. and I think that's a real issue so they are not asking if I'm okay because I've got three children at home I get oh you've got your hands full because you've got your three kids at home type comments the only people who are asking whether I'm okay and I make sure I ask everybody if they're okay for this reason is fellow mums and that is it and we're looking out for each other and I do think that's happening but I think the majority of organisations and my husband's included who are very male dominant organisation are just burying their heads in the sand around this it's almost like well let's just not really mention it let's just get through this kids are at home but hopefully they won't be soon, let's just not really mention it. Let's just get through this. Kids are at home, but hopefully they won't be soon.

And let's just pretend that never happened. Not really considering the toll I think it's taking on a lot of people, men and women included, because this is really hard for them as well, I think. Do you get obsessed about your everyday, what the reality is at the moment? I think for me, I go through a complete range of emotions um every single day and I I said I said to you Emma I am kind of close here so I do find it really emotional um because I have I have times when I feel like I'm failing at everything at the moment um that I'm not I'm not I know I'm

not being the best mum and I know I'm not doing the best at my job um and I have moments in the days when I I do feel I've got this you know I can do this and those moments are there as well and I feel I feel proud that we are getting through this and we are keeping the kids at home so the NHS can do what they're brilliant at I feel that kind of pride as well and I think I'll look back and feel that probably more but right now every day and right now at this moment in time with the kids you know in the other room it feels really impossible to juggle all these kind of different priorities at the moment. I can hear the strain and the emotion in your voice.

Yeah, I think it's a, I do have so many moments throughout the day when I'm just trying not to kind of cry. Because I think we have this thing and this pride where we don't want to, you know, once you go, you go. And you've kind of got to hold it together, as I say, for the kids in the other room, for work, for being on that call for everything else. But just so emotional about not feeling in control of anything, anything that I'm doing. And all this is kind of being slightly done to me.

And I know that's the same for everybody. But yeah, just I think the emotion comes from just feeling like I'm pretty close to failing at all of this. hearing from some of our listeners about either they have themselves lost their jobs yeah or they've had to walk away for a bit because they they just can't get the flexibility from a company to try and make all of this work together yeah that's all those thoughts have completely gone through my head and I I have to pay we have to pay the mortgage I have to work there is no option for that and the rational side of your head knows that but I've had many irrational moments with my amazing mum in particular when I've just broken down with her and just said I can't do this and I just I'm gonna hand my notice

in I'm gonna leave because I physically cannot do all of this and and she's been an amazing rock and again I feel so lucky to have her um just helping me to look up and see the bigger picture. But yeah, I have those moments and I'm exhausted. But along with probably a lot of us, I still in the nighttime, you lie in bed and that's when you do your kind of your life filing, don't you? Your life filing system. And I lie in bed and I think about all the things that I need to do. And one of them, many, many nights has been having a quick look on those job sites and, you know, seeing is there anything else out there? What else could I do?

But that's just that irrational side of my head, I think, just feeling like I need to take some control of this. But I think the reality is that there's not a solution out there. And so for me, I just have to get my head down and attempt to somehow get through this period. I think it's so important to hear your voice today because while you've done that thing that so many do, and especially at the moment by saying you recognise

there are people in far harder and more challenging scenarios than yourself. You also are a voice right now to millions of people, women and men. And I think what's striking about what you're saying, and I'd love to get your view on it, is at the best of times, it's a juggle to keep a sense of yourself as a woman and be a parent. And, you know, as you say, you take pride in your work and also your role as a parent. Yeah. But the pandemic has meant you have to do both at home at the same time. Yeah, it's just completely shocking, isn't it? And I think for me, I made a lot of those decisions. They were really informed decisions for me. You know, I made an informed decision to work, albeit that I wanted to part time at this moment in time, but I have previously worked full time with the first two children. And I made an informed decision to do that. I think knowing that

the schools were there and that, you know, from the age of four, those kids would be in school. And that's just the way the world worked. And I think likewise, I made an informed decision to have three children because that was the balance that we could manage at that time and knowing that they would go into education at a certain time. I think I would accept that I probably by making those decisions I'm pushing myself quite close to being at capacity but it was an informed decision and I think at the moment none of those decision making processes are there for us and that information from Boris at the beginning of this year the beginning of January, was just absolutely gut-wrenching when he made that statement to say the schools would be closed. And you just think,

I'm really not sure how I'm going to get through this. And so I just desperately didn't want the kids to hear. So they went to bed that night not knowing anything. And I just felt so gutted for them. And I know why kids, kids you know are in school and it's brilliant they're open at the moment for key workers but the two times I've properly broken down and recently have been when we've gone past the school and I hear the kids playing playground and I just realize I just know what my kids are missing out on and I understand why but I think that then adds that huge element of pressure to me that above anything I just want them to be happy with this period I want them to look back and think yeah you know mum was there and we did this and this

was a really good time but when you add that pressure on top of attempting to do your job and do 40 hours a week it's almost impossible to do that. Thank you so much to Annie there for you know making time in a very difficult time in her life to talk so candidly. A couple of messages came in around key workers being allowed to send their children to school as she just said at the end there neither of her or her partner qualify for that. So that's why she's in that position. Andrea has got in touch to say, big support to this amazing mum talking now.

We hear you. And there are so many of us. Another one here, which is anonymous, says, I often go to bed at 2am, having homeschooled, cleaned, fed people all day, start my demanding job in law once everyone has gone to bed. I'm at breaking point. I feel physically, mentally and emotionally broken. Well, listening to those messages and to that interview with Annie,

Leanne Cross, the director of Homestart Greenwich, which provides support and a friendly ear for a range of different families, and Sam Smethers, the former chief executive of the Fawcett Society, which campaigns for gender equality and women's rights, who stepped down in December last year, in part to find a bit more balance in her life. If I could start with you, Sam, good morning. Good morning. What did you make of what you heard from Annie?

Well, it was really moving listening to her. And I really felt, you know, much, she identified so much of what she was saying. And that constant battle, which frankly, it, identified so much with what she was saying and that constant battle, which frankly was a battle before COVID anyway, of juggling everything and caring for children. You know, I've been juggling it for 29 years. I had my first baby when I was 21 and my last one was 42. So, you know, that's one of the reasons why I stepped back because I felt so ground down by it. But doing a full-time job and caring for three young children at home and home schooling trying to give them an education as much as anything

else and how are mothers and parents supposed to do that and so you really felt for her you felt the kind of tension in her voice and she's trying desperately to hold it all together and I'm sure she's she is holding it together and you know she you can see she's just about managing it but there are so so many women right now who are struggling to do that driven out of work feeling that um they can't carry on uh doing what they've been qualified and trained to do and paid to do all this time and and making those informed decisions as she said so and you know it's really really hard i was just gonna say teaching is a full-time job you know as well yeah it's a professional job I'm not a teacher I don't actually enjoy teaching my kids I really don't I find it very hard um the first lockdown we had no structure no proper homeschooling at all so we were trying to generate

the content of these lessons which was a joke and this time around we have got structure but then we have to be on the case with the zoom lessons and uh watching the the recorded lessons and doing the homework etc etc. So you really do have to be on it and supporting your children to do it. And it's just not feasible. I mean, that's also what she was saying. It's impossible. It's so shocking. And, you know, yet we are here and this is what's going on. And just before I bring Leanne in on what she's hearing, the other thing that was very striking is she felt so guilty for saying anything because she knows, and there will be people who will be thinking this,

that she's not in the worst position she could be in. You know, she's not a single parent, for instance. She does have work. But it doesn't take away from the fact that that is a real lived experience at the moment. Absolutely. And we know. Absolutely you know and we know that you know low-income households low-income mums are more likely to have lost their jobs more likely to be facing pregnancy discrimination really struggling financially that is absolutely true but there are literally hundreds of thousands millions of women right now

who are all feeling a bit like Annie all feeling at the edge of what they can cope with. And, you know, we just can't keep doing this to women. And what we're doing at the moment is literally turning the clock back on women's rights and the progress we have made in the last 20 years. And that is what really, really worries me. And unfortunately, we've got a government that doesn't recognise that, doesn't see that that's the impact it's going to have. Well, we don't have a government representative here. And I believe they would strongly refute that talking about certain packages that have been offered but we've had some of those discussions and we will continue to have them around support and whether it's been recognised or not but I'm

keen to keep this on the experience of parents and what's going on because we are also hearing from dads also getting in touch but we do know the figures are showing disproportionately that women are bearing the brunt in a very specific way. And we are, women's are, of course, but many male listeners, we're very happy to be hearing from as well. Just to say, for instance, the Institute for Fiscal Studies say mothers are one and a half times more likely

than fathers to have lost their job or quit since the start of lockdown. And Annie's story gives you an insight into how close people are getting to quitting. Leanne, welcome to you. What are you hearing from families perhaps that you don't normally hear from in your support role as Director of Home Start Greenwich? Good morning, everyone. Yeah, a very similar story from Annie. And I think families like Annie are kind of the ones that we probably wouldn't have heard much from before so they're they're in full-time work their children are in school

and maybe they might dip out dip in and out on a weekend type of activity we're running but more and more that cohort of women of working families who are just feeling that the pandemic has added with the homeschooling just slightly too much to their plates. And, you know, women and families are amazing at all of the multitasking that they do. But this feels very overwhelming because the support systems that people are used to having, we have families say, you know, actually, my mum or a friend helped me with the children or sometimes colleagues buddy together and they pick up children or the after school clubs. And with those being closed, even the day of support that families previously had isn't available to them.

Because as we were hearing from Annie, the decision you make about the shape of your family, if you do decide it, as it were, is based on our society as it was, not as it is now, whether that's grandparents, extended family, friends and schools. You know, just the very thought of schools being there as a norm is what's to be expected. Could I draw you because we're trying to I can't tell you how many messages we're getting, but we're trying to open this up fully and say how people are feeling. I know that you yourself, Leanne, are feeling this as well. Oh, definitely. I mean, some of what Annie said, I felt quite emotive listening to it this morning because, and I'm sure Sam's experience as well,

I've found it a lot. My children are three and a half years apart and that's by no accident because they were going into school. And, you know, I have a support system um in the beginning my mum's been um is abroad and she's not she wasn't able to get back she provides that my mum and dad provide a lot of support they've not been able to be here my mother-in-law who also does a lot of our school support um and has been a part of our support bubble but she's needed her own support as well during this time and she's now bearing the brunt of helping us um much probably to her own pain yeah i was gonna

say how are relations there i hope it's all good we're really fortunate that we all really get on but she is now she had five children she's now back living with us most of the time helping me with our two because with our two children because we're both working but the pressure I felt um before the December holiday I would be lying if I didn't say I thought about could I do this job every single day really I've got children who need my attention my my youngest is five she was four in the first when the first pandemic came need my attention they need my work they need my work they need my time they need fun mum you're stressed you're running a company you're trying to fight for its survival

for a pandemic you're trying to look after your employer your employees it's really difficult and we're in a care industry so we're looking after families and thinking about their needs and you kind of like all mothers and mother was i think think to you, you put your own needs last. So at that point, you just think, can I do this? Am I checking out? And when Annie said, I just want my children to be happy. I think I say that every day. I want my children to look back. And when I see everybody on Instagram in lavender fields and pancakes and all of this, I want my children to have that experience. And then they're not going ours is different um I kind of I'm being around the professionals and around people I've been quite open with my school and

said we aren't homeschooling they're home from school and I'm doing my best and we're trying to do things that fit two different curriculum ages through working huge amount of hours each week for both myself and my husband. And I've done that. Oh, I'm really lucky because I've got a partner at home. Well, actually, my experience and my hardship isn't diminished by somebody else's. No, and I think that's a really key point. And thank you for being so honest yourself

about taking us into what you were thinking about before Christmas with your own job. Because we've got two, you and Sam on the line here, for various reasons, have really considered your positions. And is it tenable to keep working and be able to work? And as Sam was saying about the clock being turned back in some ways for women in particular. Just stay with me, both of you, because we've got Nicola on the line

who actually got in touch with us this morning, which is great. Nicola, good morning. Good morning thanks thank you so much for joining us now i understand you're you're a single mum and tell us a bit about your situation at the moment yeah i kind of think it's just interesting to listen to everyone's situations and just literally what the woman just said you know about um the fact that you know it doesn't diminish anyone else's situations because I'm a single mum. It doesn't mean it's any harder than for someone with several kids.

I think having younger kids at home is the hardest thing of all because they need that constant attention. But my son's 12, I'm a single parent and I've got a full-time job, which is quite long hours. And I recently got got promotion in january which um my previous uh my previous job was um kind of changing quite a bit and so i felt a need to leave and change and in january i did that but

i almost instantly regretted it because it's meant really really long hours i just feel guilty all the time because i've got i have to make a choice between my son or my work and I've got to pay my bills so sometimes it's always really always work yeah and and I just hope that whole thing of wanting to wanting to give a good experience as well being fun mum being present it's almost impossible it sounds like for you at the moment is and I mean I thought I ended up putting it... I'm a key worker, so I think a couple of weeks back

I just kind of realised that I couldn't do it. And he has started going to school, but even that in itself is a challenge because there's no one there. He's struggling with, you know, the fact that he has to then form new friendships

if he's in year seven. So it's kind of like everything's new anyway. And it's all been a bit of a strange experience going back to school from the start so um we've been um there's been battles all around but i just feel like when you're in a new job as well you want to make a good impression there's a lot of fear about oh you know am i doing this well enough you know i have to demonstrate i'm doing really well working on enough, you know, I have to demonstrate that I'm doing really well, working on the weekend, you know, wherever it takes. And yeah, you are, you are the sacrifices happening with the time of your, with your child and, you know, and there's not really

family to pick it up either. So it's, it's, it's quite, it is, it is kind of a lot on me. Do you feel, do you feel a bit better despite navigating all those changes for your son now in school? I hadn't actually thought about if they go back in, they're going to have to make new friends, be with different people.

Thank you for kind of bringing that perspective to bear. But has it in any way made it a bit easier for you? For him going back into school? Yeah, it has. It has meant that I've felt a little bit less guilty

because I've felt like he's at least going to have someone there to answer the questions that he needs. I mean, the reason why I sent him back in because he was actually pretending to work. And at the end of the day, he wasn't doing anything. So that's why he went back in. There'll be some wry smiles to that, let me tell you, with people knowing what you're talking about there.

Yeah, but I suppose, yeah, in some ways I'm really fortunate because I do have that option, you know, but I did try my best to not take the option as far as I could, you know, because I felt like, A, it was safer, he was at home and, you know, it just felt like there was a lot of pressure on schools and you thought that was fair evil, you know. You're just trying to, I don't know, us women have so much guilt and so much responsibility. And I think that's the issue though, isn't it? It's like we have all responsibility now.

Well, I feel like I do. I have every decision's mine. You know, I'm responsible for the roof over our head. I'm responsible for, you know, everything, every part of aspects of our lives. And it is a lot of pressure. Well, thank you. I was just going to say,

thank you for feeling like you could talk to us today. Thank you. You were going to add something there. I just wanted to make sure you... No, no, go on. Was there something else? No, I was just going to say, I just feel like you can't do it all.

And I think anyone that says they can do it all is just lying to themselves. And I think that when people do decide to quit and just focus on their kids, it's a very brave decision. Yeah. And I admire that because I don't feel like I'm brave enough to do that. And I feel very guilty about that. So much guilt, isn't there, around all of this and so many almost taboos that we're breaking

and I'm doing so because you're getting in touch with us. Nicola, thank you very much. All the best to you. All the best to your boy. I'm sure he's working now, he's in school a little bit more anyway with perhaps people looking all around him. Maybe there'll be even more attention, who knows. But the messages coming in are many just to read a couple more before i

go back to to our guests here um one here which just says i'm in tears listening to this um i know exactly what she's talking about annie there i fully resonate with it and on top of it all there's the burden of parenting uh there's another message here we need to be good parents now more than ever my son is struggling mentally he's a five-year-old's another message here. We need to be good parents now more than ever. My son is struggling mentally. He's a five-year-old and I feel so much the need to be present and be there fully. But the burden of work and schooling is immense. I can't not work.

And so I can't fully be mum. It's devastating. I mean, that sort of language is incredibly powerful. Nina says, I'm listening to your contributor. She's making me cry in sympathy. I'm sure you're getting lots of messages saying what I'm about to say, but I want to say it to Annie. She is not alone and she is not failing.

Like her, I know there are loads of people worse off, but she has a right to those emotions, sounds wonderful, thoughtful and considerate and a humane individual. And just let me read this message as well, saying about dads, 40% of your audience listen to us. I promise we are. Some of us are supporting their ex-wives as well as schooling and work.

If I don't sleep, I probably have three to four hours each day to do a fifth job. An insight there from a dad who's got in touch. Just to come back to you, Sam Smethers, as the former chief executive of the Fawcett Society, to remind people campaigns for gender equality, you know, there's a whole other conversation, perhaps we could have another

time about your own decision, which was actually not necessarily just linked to the pandemic, because one would hope that the chief executive of the Fawcett Society, you know, wouldn't necessarily feel like work was not working in some ways. But you know, there's lots of personal things at play there. But because you've held that role, what would you say to employers who are listening and doing what Annie is saying, who are essentially just ignoring the fact that children are at home? Is there something you would say, Sam Smethers? Absolutely. I think the first thing is employers have got a duty of care to their staff and, you know, their mental health, their wellbeing, you know, really supporting them to do what they need to do and to get through this pandemic and you know there are

some good employers who are doing that who are really putting the extra work in place to support their employees but we also hear of lots of horror stories where they're not and they're just not engaging with it and it's all a bit of a joke or here are the kids on zoom and they're not really thinking about what what does that really mean for the woman at the other end and it is disproportionately still women who are doing that sort of balancing act so duty of care to your staff if you've invested in those staff and you've you've you've trained them you've promoted them they they must be a value to you why not value them now it's really really important that you continue to value those staff and actually think about retaining those staff and

if they're walking away from you and feeling they can't cope that's that's a vote of no confidence really in in the way they're able to to balance their work and home life so there's much more that employers can do you know and I just don't accept that jobs you know in many cases they can't be done flexibly most of them can I know that some are frontline jobs and some can't be done from home but actually some degree of flexibility is usually possible so really thinking afresh about how things can be done flexibly and not just uh you know focusing on presenteeism you know really we've really got to think about what is productivity and how do we get the best out of people and how can we support and care for our staff to get through all of this together i mean i could also hear you know small business owners and mid-sized and large

probably saying you know i can't even think about anything right now because I suppose I'm fighting for my company. But they've also got to try and do this at the same time. That's not to diminish that point, but just perhaps also to reflect that. Leanne, if I could just give a final word to you on this before I go back to some of our many, many messages. Is there a message you would like to give to anyone listening who doesn't feel they can get in touch and feels bad even raising this with anyone? Or is there something that, I don't know, a piece of music or something you do to get yourself through a particularly bad moment? I think I've got lots of tactics that I've been bringing out of the box over the last few weeks and months. But I think I'm just going to say first, a lot of parents probably, because they've never felt they needed any extra support don't know where to go so the first thing is there are still support

services there's organizations like Home Start like Mind who are doing lots of activities you've got your local children's centers I mean they're generally directed for under fives but even the youth services they are open they might not physically open, but they're doing online activities. I mean, my children got involved in a couple of online Zoom groups and just the difference in them engaging with other children has actually pecked up our day for the rest of the afternoon. So I would encourage parents to keep on doing that. Engage with the local children's centres.

Engage with the local Home Starts. They are befriending services. use the support that's out there mine don't think oh i'm not that bad i don't need it we all need it we all need to talk and we might be getting a bit zoom fatigued with our family and friends but reach out to your family try and be honest because that's for me has been the game changer for and i stopped going, I'm fine and trying to pick everybody else up because that's normally my role that I bring the energy. Yeah, try and do that. There's some really good tips there about support services. I'm going to have to leave that there. But there's two really good tips and techniques within there. And, you know, I think there's more to be done to be shared, to share, as you say, with your nearest and dearest. We will have to leave it there.

But Leanne Cross, thanks so much for your time today. Director of Homestart Greenwich. And you were listening to Sam Smethers there, the former chief executive of the Fawcett Society. And the first voice you heard, which kickstarted all of this, and huge thanks to her for trusting us, is Annie. That's what we're calling her. And in terms of your experiences, I'll come back to some of your messages. But so many coming in. So thank you for those and keep them coming. Now Christine Keeler, the woman who was known to nearly

brought down the government in the 60s, that's how she was often described, she had an affair with the Secretary of State for War, John Profumo, when she was just 19, in an unconnected court case but one which is linked in a complicated way, she ended up being sentenced to nine months in prison and served six that's because she was found guilty of perjury and obstructing the course of justice in the trial of a different man who her son Seymour Platt says was obsessed with her but now Seymour wants a pardon for his late mother next month he'll send his legal application to

the Lord Chief Justice Seymymour, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. And could you explain why she was convicted of perjury in the first place? Sure. So at the beginning of 1963, my mum was going out and she was with four friends or three other friends. And as they were leaving the building, a man from the loft building jumped out and attacked her. This was all portrayed in the drama, the BBC drama that was recently on TV. And two of the witnesses who were there, the two guys who were there, who were a lot older than Chris and her friend, they said that they don't want to get involved. They want nothing to do with it. One of them already had trouble with the police.

And so when the police turned up, the two men hid in a bedroom. And Christine told the story about Lucky Gordon attacking her. And a doctor was called to inspect her wounds. And she told it without mentioning the two witnesses. Unbeknownst to Chris, nine months later, she would be the one in prison. And the man who attacked her would have walked free now for Chris it was something which was

it haunted her all of her life because all of her life she was told well if you go into court and you lie on the stand then you go to prison but the truth is that isn't the case because a lie that you tell in court has to have malice, has to have intent to change the course of that proceedings.

And hers didn't. If the witnesses were called, it would have been the same outcome. Because when they were called, they agreed with her story. They say, we saw Lucky Gordon attacking. And how is this linked to Profumo? So, tentatively linked to Profumo. For a long period of time christine was being stalked by lucky gordon lucky gordon had a long history of violence and a long history of violence against women and he stabbed a girl in denmark in the late 1950s he'd go on to stab another girl in the 1970s he was a really unpleasant character and he decided that he that christine was his property he met christine through stephen ward uh they were buying some indian hemp uh the 1960s uh expression for cannabis

and uh he just decided that he was she was his property christine then went on to have a about a three-month relationship with John Profumo. John Profumo lied about that in the House of Commons. And John Profumo lost his job because he lied about that in the House of Commons. He had to confess in the end. So his reputation was absolutely destroyed. Interestingly, John Fummo, before he lied in the world, before he lost his job, he sued a newspaper that claimed that he had a relationship with Christine and won damages, which means that he perjured himself. But he's not the one who went to prison. Christine was.

So, I mean, what you've said there, and thank you for explaining it, is do you believe her age and gender played a role in the way that she was treated in all of this? Yeah. I also think because she was Christine Keeler, she was told when she went to court in December that there was no way that she was going to get a fair shake of the stick. She was hated in the country. She was hated because she'd destroyed the reputation of John Profumo.

The public was sick and tired of the Profumo scandal by that time of the year. And she was told that her best chance was to plead for the mercy of the court and just plead guilty. By that time in December, she'd already been through four really high-profile court cases. She'd been through a Johnny Edgerton court case at the beginning of the year, with the famous Johnny Edgerton shooting at the Muse in London. There was the court case with Lucky Gordon, and there was the Stephen Ward trial, which was probably one of the biggest court cases of all time up until then.

So by the time December had come, she was just exhausted and she wanted it all to finish. So I think she just seemed guilty. Yeah, she was ground down perhaps by... Importantly, she didn't retract that Lucky Gordon had attacked her. And in court, it was accepted that Lucky Gordon had attacked her. So that is on the record. I mean, I thought we thought it would be good to just hear a clip of your mum from an interview she did with Woman's Hour in 2001. And in it, she talks about the stigma she always felt

and actually the impact on you. I've always just got on with my life like I did when I came out of prison. I've married a couple of times. I've always just got on with my life like I did when I came out of prison. I've married a couple of times, I've started again, I've started a job and look forward to it, and, you know, with all the enthusiasm that one does, and bang, they keep coming up with these dreadful stories. Keeler, the liar, banner headlines, best gobbler in the business. Some girl's writing a story how her and I used to be on the game together

and there was lots of MPs and judges. They were just lies and lies and I'm trying to bring up my child. How does he cope with it? He's tough, but it's not fair on him either. He loves me, he understands, I've told him the truth, you know, and so he understands the situation. We just wanted to hear her voice with you, and I hope that's OK, because what she's saying there is very powerful,

and you're now fighting for her to have this posthumous pardon. How did that make you feel? That was very moving. I haven't heard that before. So that was very, very moving. You know, and it's funny because she mentioned the goblet comment. One of the reasons I'm doing this is that Christine, in her will, she asked me to tell the truth about her story. And the goblet comment would be exactly why this perjury was so wrong.

When you're perjured, you have no right for recourse. So a newspaper can print whatever they want about you. And if you want to take that newspaper to court, you're a perjurer. You have no, you've lost before you walk in the door. You've been convicted of perjury. So she had a lot of her defences taken away from her when she was 21 and she had to live the rest of her life with people saying whatever they wanted about her. And how did she cope with that?

She was a great mother and I knew that my mother always loved me, but it had a massive impact on her. She'd go into marriages and she'd destroy a marriage because she was damaged by what happened to her in 1963 and when it ruined relationships it destroyed families at the end of the day you know she was damaged but a very loving mum so I owe her this um very moving hearing my mum talking there but she does in her own way encapsulate exactly why we're doing and that's what you know having had her on Women's Hour we wanted to to hear her voice because it's it's so powerful and I you

know I think what you're doing is is something people will want to follow and want to hear about I know you're submitting this next month just very briefly if you can how confident are you very confident we've got uh i've got a website where i talk about all of this um and it was through the website that man called james harbridge uh came forward and solicited those a lawyer actually he wanted to help me and through him i've now got felicity jerry who's a qc who also wants to help me. And through him, I've now got Felicity Jerry, who's a QC, who also wants to help. So we've got really good people behind us who are pushing forward with this. Well, Seymour, will you come back and talk to us

and tell us how you get on? I will. Seymour. I will. Thank you so much. Seymour Platt, thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, the host of the You're Dead to Me podcast, and I have some good news. Now that we're all stuck at home, again, we are bringing back Homeschool History. And if you missed out the first time, you don't know what it is, it's our fun, family-friendly and informative show

about, well, you can probably guess, yeah, history. And yes, we're bringing back the obligatory sound effects, of course. This time out, get ready to learn about the Great Fire of London, ancient Egyptian religion, the Scottish Wars of Independence, Mary Seacole and one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles that you'll have to tune in to find out which one.

So that's Homeschool History with me, Greg Jenner, on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.